Mini 659: The Neighborhood- Game over on Day 6

[Elias_the_thief]

semi random

##vote: Tony montana

. Sounds too much like hannah montana for my liking. Also, any truth behind that miller claim user?

[Elias_the_thief]

Eh, I guess I believe the claim for now and a claim day 1 is probably the best play if youre truly a miller. But I mean, its really not a terrible play as mafia as it deters your lynch day one and a guilty result on you isnt at all damning...I dunno. For now I'll leave my vote on tony montana, who I believe has yet to post.

[Elias_the_thief]

Hmm. Well, might as well get my thoughts on the claim cleared up now that I've seen other peoples posts about it and checked the MD discussion thread. So, here are my thoughts:

As Miller:

Claiming Day One is probably the best play, as a claim right after a guilty result is revealed comes off as really contrived. Claiming day one, page one even, seems like the proper play as miller. Not only does it get the idea out there early, but it also provides a good basis for discussion early which is fairly protown.

As Scum:

Claiming Day One is probably the best play, as a claim right after a guilty result is revealed comes off as really contrived. So, if the scum wishes to claim miller, day one is definately the best time to do it as well. The claim, however, attracts a lot of attention to the scum. Many players as scum wouldnt be ballsy enough to pull the claim due to the increased scrutiny.

So the question to me is whether User is skilled enough, and ballsy enough, to pull this as scum. He only has two completed games as mafia, but theyre both wins. Definately worth checking out. So as of now, I'm undecided. I will say that the flavor makes a lot of sense, however.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Other random commentary/questions:

1)

Darox - In post 9, you subtley changed your vote to Username but provided no specific reasons for doing so. Was this on the basis of his claim? If so, why was the claim voteworthy? Oh, same goes for Rashiminos, though your post had less subtlety involved.

2)

fhqwhgads and crywolf - you both posted after usernames claim without making any mention of it, even though it was the only relevant issue to come up at that point. Why did you choose not to even mention the claim? This goes for Lowell as well, however he only initially ignored it and then chimed in after ythills post.

3)

bionicchop - in post 19, you mention that investigating username is useless. Couldnt the investigation be used to prove sanity of a cop, if there is one?

4)

Tony - You call lowells attack vague and unsubstantiated. Could you elaborate on why this is? It seemed like he had a decent point to me so I'd like to see where youre coming from.

[Elias_the_thief]

I will say that the flavor makes a lot of sense, however.

There was no 'flavor' in his claim. Flavor is the role info added by the mod which gives characters 'flavor' related to the context / intro of the game.

I've been on this site for two years longer than you, I know what flavour is. If you check post 35User clearly states his flavor.

3)

bionicchop - in post 19, you mention that investigating username is useless. Couldnt the investigation be used to prove sanity of a cop, if there is one?

Someone already stated this would probably be a waste. I have not seen anything but a Sane cop in a mini-normal game although I do not have a ton of experience. Someone would have to provide some links to a large sample size of such games before that line of reasoning is even considered IMO.

This is a very closeminded outlook. What mods have done in the past has little bearing on what our mod has done because every mod is different. A cops sanity should never be assumed.

[Elias_the_thief]

Why bother asking you the question when I know how I would answer? Because I already know my own opinion. Scumhunting usually works better when you get reads on other players, as opposed to yourself.

[Elias_the_thief]

Er, that was worded incorrectly actually. My real question was the second question, of why the claim was voteworthy. Sorry about that.

[Elias_the_thief]

All you seem to be doing is talking.

I wasn't aware that you could do much else than talk in internet mafia. ¬¬

Tony - You call lowells attack vague and unsubstantiated. Could you elaborate on why this is? It seemed like he had a decent point to me so I'd like to see where youre coming from.

I really think lowell is the one who needs to elaborate.
He said my post was all over the map. How so?
He said i was sowing seeds of doubt. How so?
And doing so without taking responsibility myself. Responsibility for what?

That's what I meant with vague (as in just general characterizations thrown my way) and unsubstantiated (some direct criticism on what I said would've been nice)

fair enough.

[Elias_the_thief]

If a miller dies, we have an easy lynch with you.

Do people agree with this sentiment?

Yeah. Two masons in one game? Seems REALLY unlikely. I dont think its ever been done and the game woud be swingy as hell. I think gorcs a better mod than that.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yeah I did. Good catch there.

[Elias_the_thief]

Tommy, after you have your answers (or sooner if you feel it's appropriate) I'd like to know what you hoped to learn by asking this question.

I wanted to check with players who are more experienced than me whether bionicchop's heuristic was reliable. If so, it means I know what should happen if we find another miller - and also makes iamausername's claim more believable (because more risky). If not, it means I should suspect bionicchop of trying to set up a potential mislynch. I reckon I've got my answer.

Eh, the claim isnt that risky because millers are very uncommon roles in todays forum meta. So like, its actually a fairly safe claim.

[Elias_the_thief]

1)

Bionicchop - your answer (67) to ythills question (66) is somewhat disappointing. I think he was looking more for something like what you thought of the flavor, which you didnt take any sort of stance on. And yeah, if he wasnt asking that, well I am.

2)

post 70 by rashiminos (or whatever) brought to my attention your confidence in users claim. Now that I think about it, it does seem really weird to believe it 100%, essentially saying hes cleared in your mind. Then I was going to ask why you believed it so firmly, but then I recalled your list. But I have some problems with it. Let us engage in a little debate:

Why you should believe iamausername's claim:

1) WIFOM notwithstanding, it's too risky for a scum to make this claim on PAGE 1

I don't see why. What makes it so risky? Isn't this claim more believable day 1 then any other time, thus making day 1 the only plausible time to make the claim as scum?

2) There could be multiple scumgroups/an SK/etc. So even if he's scum, there's a chance being "cleared" by town will get him killed by another faction, again making it pointless to fake.

Multiple scumgroups are rare, making it a small chance of being killed by another faction. Additionally, SK would be more interested in taking out possible scumbags than a cleared town, IMO. The equivalent of a cleared townie shouldnt be a high priority for a SK. There is no way that these small possibilities of difficulty should make claiming "pointless" and your choice of words reads as an exaggeration to me. Third reason is dumb.

Continued:

Montana never suggests metagaming (I did that though, thats a good strategy), he doesnt suggest flavor testing he just mentions that the given flavor is plausible. He doesnt seem to advocate lynching or counterclaiming, just states that those two ways are the only ways to know the truth behind the claim. fake claiming is inherant in the conversation of the truth of a claim. So...91 is complete BS. Why are you so blatantly exaggerating points and misrepresenting tony?

3)

User - Can you honestly say that you dont think the bit in 107 about suggesting lynches is a logic stretch, a leading question, and really not too relevant to the original usage of the word lynch? If not, then why make the post? What are your opinions on crywolf and why are you exaggerating points on her?

4)

bionicchop - I made a turnaround on the lowell montana interaction similar to crywolfs. was that scummy as well? If not, why not? If so, why havent you mentioned it? Crywolf is scummy for poorly veiled fishing, but besides that your case is pretty weak.

Now I will close with an

##unvote, ##vote: Lowell

.

[Elias_the_thief]

EBWOP: I just realized that question 3 asking about leading questions is in fact a leading question >.< sorry about that but I feel pretty strongly about that point.

[Elias_the_thief]

Or perhaps my 109?

[Elias_the_thief]

(Point 2 in 109 was directed at lowell)

[Elias_the_thief]

##unvote

this wagon went way to fast for my liking, and lowell hasnt even got around to answering my initial questions. Lets just slow it down a bit, and look more carefully at everyone voting lowell.

[Elias_the_thief]

Well now that I read them, its more like I wanted him to argue some points or admit theyre invalid, which he never does. His 100% belief in the User claim is ridiculous and I want him to respond to my arguments against his reasons to believe it.

[Elias_the_thief]

The reason I believe it is that I'm not a WIFOM-minded person. I said "scum wouldn't do that because yada yada" and your response is basically, "ah HA, scum WOULD do that because you wouldn't think that scum would do that! QED scum!"

Thats not at all what I said. I pointed out that day one is the only plausible time to make a miller claim so making it day one doesnt exactly make it risky. Further, I never said anything along the lines of "QED scum!". My argument is not that User is scum, but that your assertion of "QED miller" is unintelligent for the exact reasons that you believe "QED scum" is unintelligent.

I prefer to see what's there and not the opposite. For the life of me I can't imagine a scum gutsy enough to fakeclaim miller on PAGE 1, having NO IDEA whether there are other scum groups or anything else about the game setup.

The chances of another scumgroup are very low dude. Not to mention that other scumgroups have higher priorities than millers, especially given that the town would be conflicted over whether to lynch them or not. User (from what I've seen) is a pretty gutsy player as scum, and would be perfectly fine pulling something like this. To automatically say its too risky, instead of leaving him as an uncertainty is well, dumb. And I know you're a smarter player than that, which is why I find it scummy.

[Elias_the_thief]

To automatically say its too risky, instead of leaving him as an uncertainty is well, dumb. And I know you're a smarter player than that, which is why I find it scummy.

First, never overestimate my intelligence.

Second, it sounds like we just have a disagreement. I'm convinced he's a miller, and you're not. I get that you object to my "certainty," but that's the way I play the game. I deal in certainty. To me, I file people in my head as "people I want to lynch" and "people I don't." As much as it might be good to deal in shades of gray in the real world, it's useless here. Either you suspect someone or you don't, and equivocating doesn't win you any points in my book. When someone makes the (admittedly inane) post calling someone "OBVSCUM" or "OBVTOWN", we don't jump on them for the certainty in their tone. We either (a) agree with them, or (b) ignore them.

So, I ask again, what are we talking about here?

You can chill with the patronizing tone, you told me what I wanted to hear. I'll be checking your game history, but for now I'll leave my vote off you.

[Elias_the_thief]

still here, rereading. post later today.

[Elias_the_thief]

Ok, things I noted in the past couple pages (in convenient block o' text format!):

A lot of talk, not a lot of content. Reminded me of McCains speech last night. Iamausernames push on Darox reads as barely veiled distraction to me. Like hardcore detraction from Lowell wagon. Tommy a little bit too maybe. Just sayin'. I dont think the Darox case is strong enough for me to vote at deadline, though there are some points to consider tomorrow. Oman so far has seemed fairly strong in his posts and reads protown to me. The policy lynch on lowell is a dumb suggestion, but lynching lowell as a last resort today due to his alignment info potential is a fairly good suggestion. Assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline. Crywolf doesnt read as scum to me, but as noob town who is trying a bit to please town. I did this in my first town game and dont find it that scummy. Something to look at later in the game but not a good day 1 lynch. Um, a comment on the "scum driven" comment and my unvote on the wagon: I really was pretty independant of the rest of that wagon if you examine vote reasons. My jump off was not because I recognized that the wagon was scum driven, but rather because Lowell got around to addressing my points, and I found his response satisfactory. Um...thats really unclear, so I'll sum up my points (and various other reads not included).

Protown:

Ythill, Oman

NQP*:

Iamausername, Rashiminos, Tommy,

Undecided:

Bionicchop2

Under Mah Radar**:

TonyMontana, fhqwhgads

Slightly Scummy:

Crywolf, Lowell, Darox

At deadline I will most likely vote lowell, as he provides the most information for us about other peoples alignments. For instance, if lowell is scum, his 100% belief of Iamausernames claim indicates to me that user is scum. There are some other decent connections I've drawn as well, which I will save til tomorrow.

*Neutral w/ quality posts
** By under mah radar, I mean I will be reviewing them better on day 2

[Elias_the_thief]

My jump off was not because I recognized that the wagon was scum driven, but rather because Lowell got around to addressing my points, and I found his response satisfactory.

Well, that's a wildly different explanation than you gave at the time:

##unvote

this wagon went way to fast for my liking, and lowell hasnt even got around to answering my initial questions. Lets just slow it down a bit, and look more carefully at everyone voting lowell.

What's going on there, Elias?

Ok, that just shows I'm not into this game enough. Post 161 is the one in which I accept Lowells responses, for some reason I thought this was the one I unvoted in. But my unvote was really for the purpose of avoiding a mislynch, so I guess your original explanation of my unvote was near-correct.

Iamausernames push on Darox reads as barely veiled distraction to me. Like hardcore detraction from Lowell wagon. Tommy a little bit too maybe. Just sayin'. I dont think the Darox case is strong enough for me to vote at deadline, though there are some points to consider tomorrow.

The deadline is a week away, so why are you pushing off looking at Darox until day 2? If you state Iamuser is using Darox to distract from the Lowell wagon you would need to assume Iamuser knows he alignment of Lowell, but you list Iamuser as neutral with quality posts in the latter part of your post. 'Barely veiled distraction' does not translate to quality posts, so I think you are slightly contradicting yourself and need to clarify your opinion on iamusername.

When I talk about 'Barely veiled distraction' I am talking about a vibe I got off the posts. It is by no means a solid point. Besides this point, I have no reason to suspect Iamausername, and I think many of his other posts have quality content and scumhunting. In light of his quality contribution to the game, I can consider him neutral.

I want to look at Darox tomorrow because I find Lowell scummier and a better lynch. The points against Darox are far from lynchworthy.

Oman so far has seemed fairly strong in his posts and reads protown to me. The policy lynch on lowell is a dumb suggestion, but lynching lowell as a last resort today due to his alignment info potential is a fairly good suggestion. Assuming no better lynch candidate comes up prior to deadline.

Oman is always strong / assertive in his posts FYI. In the only other game I played with him, he was a mafia spy and pegged me as cop. After my NK, he took control of the game (claiming a tracking role) and lead mafia to victory. Oman is a solid player and writing him off as protown after so few posts is a huge mistake IMO. You will set yourself up to be lead around whatever direction he wants if he is scum.

I never wrote him off as Protown. Thats just my read on him thus far. Do you think I stop analzing a players posts just because theyre on my protown list? My reads can change but currently he appears protown.

Crywolf doesnt read as scum to me, but as noob town who is trying a bit to please town. I did this in my first town game and dont find it that scummy.

Something to look at later in the game but not a good day 1 lynch.

Obviously I disagree since my vote is on crywolf and has been most of the day. This is not a newbie game, so I don't see any player as a newbie. If I get chance, I will try to meta her.

Newbies get into minis all the time. Newbie games arent required, and I think this is her first game ever.

At deadline I will most likely vote lowell, as he provides the most information for us about other peoples alignments. For instance, if lowell is scum, his 100% belief of Iamausernames claim indicates to me that user is scum. There are some other decent connections I've drawn as well, which I will save til tomorrow.

I don't like this ending to your post. I do agree Lowell's lynch will provide information, but in the end, any lynch does that as long as there was a full day of discussion.

Lowells provides more in my opinion than any other player.

- assumption that iamuser is scum if Lowell is scum is off. Scum buddy up to townies. Scum would know iamuser is telling the truth about being miller - if in fact he is.

This is true. This is just the side of the WIFOM that I've fallen on.

- I always view setting up future lynches as scummy.

I care.

- you are saving your 'other decent connections' until tomorrow. This is the 2nd time in this post you have made the assumption you live to see the next day. If you have thoughts / analysis / conclusions you have made, the best time to post them is always now. If you have actually figured some stuff out, waiting only runs the risk of you dying without that information coming out.

I doubt I will die tonight, as I'm not really perceived as the most protown player, just motr. The other connections I have in mind are relatively small, but will become more condemning if allowed to grow without being revealed prematurely, which is why I dont want to get into specifics.

[Elias_the_thief]

Newbies get into minis all the time. Newbie games arent required, and I think this is her first game ever.

My point is more if someone is going to jump in and skip over newbie games, then I am not going to give any kind of newbie passes. I don't fault anybody who does, but I think it is an easy card to play for a new player who wants to get away with pushing scummy agendas.

The way I see it (just limiting to Lowell vs. crywolf for argument sake):

crywolf - acting scummy (no posts have sturck me as protown) without precedent for doing such as town

Lowell - acting scummy with some precedent of doing such as town.

Thats fair enough. I dont think this is an example of "taking advantage", however.

[Elias_the_thief]

Username, you have yet to take a solid stance on Lowell I believe. DO you find him scummy? Do you think he is a good lynch in terms of info?

[Elias_the_thief]

53- elias believes claim

Incorrect. I said I was undecided, that the flavor seemed plausible (but no where near enough to confirm the claim) and that User is ballsy enough to pull the claim as scum. Thats definately not saying I believe the User claim.

281- elias promises to "look at people on day 2" [slightly strange]

The argument that I should be afraid of getting my opinions out there is false. I'm by no means considered "townie town town", and I've lurked most of the game (sorry). To call me scum on this basis is ridiculous.

283- bionic makes interesting case against elias [good]

It wasnt a case, and I responded to it. Interesting that you leave that post out of your list, as well as bionicchops consequent post in which he accepts most of my responses.

bionic

- I believe he's

town

, his turn in 316 notwithstanding. I was impressed by his case against elias in 301, but I believe he didn't take it far enough.

It wasnt a case, and I refuted his points. Learn to read.

crywolf

- I'd have said 100% scum were it not for post 265. There's something endearingly newbish to it, and it's a post I don't think scum would come out and say. I'll put her as

town

, and look more carefully at those propping her up from both sides.

I believe she is exhibiting behavior that is characteristic of a newb, not necessarily of scum. So I agree.

darox

- There is a good case to be made here, but oman's insistence that darox is innocent makes me think twice. The fact that he sometimes fears hammers and sometimes doesn't, however, makes me worry. Unknown for now, but I'm leaning

scum

for a lot of horrible misrepresentations (Lowell fishing for claims of OTHERS??? Really?)

Eh...in all honesty I havent really looked much at the Darox case.

elias

- THIS was the one that jumped out at me on reread. I read 281 several times and it still reads strange. Though I didnt' have much of an opinion of him before that, the certainty that he "will look at them tomorrow" is a very odd town post. As town, I'm not so much scared that I'll die, but I AM scared that I'll die before I get a chance to get my two cents out there. Elias does not seem to fear this.

What you fear as town is not necessarily what I fear as town, and blabbing all your opinions day one is not necessarily a protown play. Scum can garner info from everything town says just as much as town garners from scum. I am not a serious risk for a nightkill in my opinion, as I've said before.

combine

this with his earlier hesitation to get too deeply involved in the case against me

, and the fact that

he TWICE came out and said he believes the username claim

(but in equivocal language) and it all adds up to

##unvote, ##vote elias

Huh?

Wrong.

consonants

- I can do without this guy, frankly. I would call him scum but for the extended interchange with darox about darox's strange behavior. Aside from that he's been relatively useless. No good read on him yet.

Agreed on the final sentiment.

iamausername

- miller,

town

, I'm almost 100% sure. No reason to change my mind. In addition, he's led a lot of the more cogent attacks against most players.

Booooooo.

rash

- I had an early scum read on him, but I'm changing my mind. Of the votes against me, his is by far the least retarded. I'll call him

town

.

Why the early scum read?

tommy

- This is a strange one. Tommy is, in some ways, perhaps the most responsible for driving the weakass wagon before us. He's taken a few sides he shouldn't have (tony and crywolf), but on the other hand has made a few key unvotes that (had he just been going for the quicklynch of me) he wouldn't have. In particular, 273 is a post I don't believe scum would have made.

town

I find it very interesting that my unvote from your wagon is "hesitation to get too deeply involved in the case against me", while tommy's is a key unvote that shows he wasn't going for the quicklynch. You do realize I could have lurked through your wagon and allowed you to be quicklynched right? Just checking, Mr. Hypocrisy.

tonymontana

-

scum

. I still think post 46 is strange. PARTICULARLY when combined with his more bellicose tone in 190 and 196. In the latter two he seems to put a lot of stock in the power of claiming, yet the crux of our original argument that garnered his vote is that I was swayed by a claim when he thought I should have been more cautious. The timing of his unvote and revote don't help him either.

Meh. A lot can change between post 46 and post 190. I dont think this is anything particularly damning.

oman

- for some reason I get strong

town

vibes from him. He's defending a very unpopular position at the moment (darox = not scum) and doing so with gusto. Points for that.

Agreed.

yhtill

- this guy is dangerous. He has a lot of good posts and people tend to believe what he says. I believe that he's

town

, but I'm not married to it yet.

wonderful.

There is a slight link between tony and crywolf in the 50s and 60s. She says she agrees with my reasoning for voting tony, but only FOSs herself (despite him having only 2 votes). Almost immediately she changes her mind, agrees wholeheartedly with tony's side, and attacks me. This looks a LOT like buddying on crywolf's part, and I don't like that tony is just letting it happen.

This is unnecessary confusion being added to the thread IMO. This is a very weak argument.

The nature of the darox/consonants argument throughout the latter pages of this game makes me think we could be dealing with a couple of pro-town players.

This comment is strangely worded.

I'm not super-thrilled with all the backhanded compliments from those who say I'm not scum because I "always play this way." I don't believe my behavior is scummy AT ALL, and those not voting me just for meta-reasons look like people who are trying to set themselves up to vote for me later.

You've been a lot less lurky then when we were scum together. But that was like a year and a half ago, and I dont really think it has much bearing on your play here, especially when its only a one game meta.

I'm fine with my vote. I'm fine with Lowell actually claiming. I'm fine with someone hammering if he refuses.

[Elias_the_thief]

*The argument that I should be afraid of NOT getting my opinions out there is false.

[Elias_the_thief]

I actually noticed last night, I was just in no state to make a post. Thoughts: Sorry lowell, I really thought you were scum. Reread in progress.

[Elias_the_thief]

This statement to start the day is odd. Many people thought Lowell was scum and voted such. There is no need to apologize. An apology comes off as scummy to me - as if you felt the need to justify your opinions of hte previous day when there was no pressure to do such. The biggest reason this looks odd is that you ended the day without voting for anybody.

Or, I have played with Lowell before and felt bad that I read him wrong. It could be that too. And as for not voting anyone, well holy shit. I didnt even realize I wasnt voting him until you just mentioned. Read the bottom of 341, i definately thought i was voting him.

I also find it suspicious you had 1 random vote and 1 vote for Lowell, with no other votes during the day. I did not get the impression you were doing any genuine scum hunting and you never really made any substantial posts about anybody. The most you did was list 3 players as 'slightly scummy'.

I'm not generally a very strong scumhunter. Go read other games with me as town, you'll see this is a trend in my play. I play more by asking questions and garnering info than by declaring people scum and voting them. Post 53 is an example of me doing some info garnering, as is 109. In 281 I give my opinion on every player. Since then i got out of the flow of the game a little, as evidenced by my mental lapse about my lowell vote.

[Elias_the_thief]

this is the first time I used that particular list (as in the specific categories) but I should be able to find one. It seems like an odd request though.

[Elias_the_thief]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 346#712346 is a similar idea, but its much more detailed with reasons for each person. I cant seem to find ANY games in which I use a similar layout, actually. Im very interested in where you claim I've done this as scum. I basically change it up everytime. For instance, in this game as town I make a "stuff about so-and-so" list. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 584#570584
Thats the only time I've ever done that. It varies depending on mood, and free time.

[Elias_the_thief]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 195#803195 as town.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 556#844556 as town, almost the exact method as in 499.

While I think this type of meta is useful (i may start using it) i think its useless for me since my style changes so much due to various factors.

[Elias_the_thief]

hi. I will sometime from today ro tomorrow and it will be awesome. Thanks.

**Replaced by M4yhem**

[Elias_the_thief]

Mod: Can we please get a deadline extension in order for me and whoever replaces Oman to get caught up?

[Elias_the_thief]

workin on it...

[Elias_the_thief]

Almost done. I'm in several games.

[Elias_the_thief]

Type on the go style post follows. Apologies

So far I have a pretty good grasp of everything up to 25. I will finish my read tonight and hopefully have something more solid for you. The main things I'll be looking at are those that voted Lowell last minute and most pushed his wagon day one, as well as all the interactions on the Darox wagon(s). Darox has a VERY weak case, which he takes forever to outline. It is very exaggerated and uses a lot of CAPITAL LETTERS TO MAKE POINTS SEEM STRONGER. After some debate with Tony, Darow makes a post promising to address the latest rebuttals from Tony and never does.

I just read the Crywolf claim, and I'm undecided on it as of yet. The question mark would normally lead me to doubt it, but wolf has had a history of indecisiveness in her posts.

Ok, just got to the night reveal scene for this day. Quite surprised to see Darox town, slightly surprised to see PEG town as well. Darox kill came from my predecessor. While I feel that Darox was scummy enough, I wouldnt have wasted my one kill there if I didnt have to =/ (m4yhem failed to mention that we were 1 shot vig, which is one reason that i took no action night one).


After massclaim I'm very unsure of what to believe. Its not hard to make up vanillas in a game like this, seeing as theyre all just ordinary things. Doc seems like a sketchy claim, expecially with the other roles being fairly unorthodox. Besides having half power roles for investigation and not for protection being a contradiction, neither of the investigative roles are directly that role in RL, according to flavor. Wolf is the ONLY role that has "Role: doctor. Flavour: doctor". I havent completely finished reading. The tracker list from Tony is suspect, as has been said several times already. I will be updating later tonght hopefully with a full list.

[Elias_the_thief]

oh - reason being the vig can't shoot if that wasn't obvious.

Makes sense.

[Elias_the_thief]

What POSSIBLE advantage does my role have in claiming one time use now, after the claim has been made? I only bring it up because it is the truth, and it is very important to how we play the rest of this game.

[Elias_the_thief]

So I'm basically caught up, but I'm really not ready to pass judgement yet. I need more than one read before I can decide what our best move is today. I was trying to come up with a plan where we no lynched and then had our actions arranged so that we could come out with at least two confirmed, but since I'm not sure about our tracker, our watcher, OR our doc, theres nothing solid to go with. I'm thinking no lynch in order to give our roles some more time may be the best course of action.

[Elias_the_thief]

HI!

[Elias_the_thief]

I've got new evidence that narrows the pool considerably, but I'm waiting until DR catches up a bit before I post it... you'll see why.

What if DR fails to post before deadline?

[Elias_the_thief]

Eh....I really don't think we should lynch anyone based on the no-lynch argument. After the last few anti no-lynch posts I'm no longer sold on it, but I really dont think bionic proposing it is a good criteria for finding scum.

That being said, I may be willing to vote Crywolf at the end of the day because of the Doc flavor and doc role which is completely unique within the setup. For instance, I am a florist, and a 1 shot vig. An ice cream man is a tracker, a librarian a watcher. Even if one of these claims is false, I doubt they both are. Additionally, not even one of the vanillas is vanilla, flavor wise.

I'm entertaining thoughts of writing a case on Oman. He has been rather scummy on both wagons, especially his confidence on Darox being town, which makes NO sense given his claim. My bet his is confidence comes from being scum, and he overplayed it to score town points.

[Elias_the_thief]

And by Oman I mean DR, of course.

[Elias_the_thief]

Link?

[Elias_the_thief]

Not taking advantage of L-3 isnt really that daming. If it was lynch -2 or 1 its more worthy of a second look, but 3 isnt really that easy to accomplish and isnt as strong a tell in my opinion.

[Elias_the_thief]

Its highly possible that only one of tony/wolf/oman are lying, but oman and wolf are both scummy in my eyes...

[Elias_the_thief]

At deadline I would be willing to vote either Tony, Oman, or Wolf. Omans behavior was pretty scummy, but its also characteristic of him. But his confidence of Darox town just seems so....off.

[Elias_the_thief]

We may out something we don't need to does seem like a weak excuse, especially with other results claimed already. I still suspect his day 1 behavior...I think I'll

vote: DR

[Elias_the_thief]

The lack of hammer suggests to me that most of the people off of crywolf are town, or they are scum with crywolf. I believe that tony is likely town. Bionic worries me, mainly because hes making the argument that those off of crywolf are town, while subtly suggesting that he is town for the same reason. If crywolf is scum, bionic could be a likely partner. I believe that the most likely scum is still DR, but there seems to be no support for his lynch despite his unusual assurance of darox being town and his refusal to claim targets. If I can't get a DR lynch, I don't think I want any lynch. Crywolf, though the claim is slightly suspect, does not seem like a good lynch candidate. I will

unvote, vote: no lynch

[Elias_the_thief]

If you think Wolf is scum, why dont you write a case, with quoted posts and such, instead of just asserting some points? Your laziness in the promotion of her lynch reads as fairly scummy.

[Elias_the_thief]

If you think Wolf is scum, why dont you write a case,

with quoted posts and such, instead of just asserting some points?

How bout answering the full question, chief?

[Elias_the_thief]

If you vote DR I will vote DR as well instead of no lynch. DR is scum extraordinaire.

[Elias_the_thief]

I appreciate the link to the post, and I guess your case is well justified (at least to the extent that I dont suspect your persistence on her lynch). I still find DR more likely scum however. Most of your case is small things. There are not many strong tells in there.

unvote, vote: DR

[Elias_the_thief]

i doubt it...im guessing we have a no lynch today. Thats not terrible really. I suppose its better then a mislynch.

[Elias_the_thief]

I care. Im just unsure of who to vote for, crywolf or DR.

[Elias_the_thief]

Tomorrow. Post.

[Elias_the_thief]

I think DR is scum...I'm not ready to vote him, because crywolf is nagging at me. At the very least he should claim results like wtf...

[Elias_the_thief]

DR is absent due to legitimate internet connection difficulties. He's my backup mod for FFVII mafia and he told me about it for that game too. I still think hes scum, but this game shouldnt be abandoned because of freak internet failure on his end.

[Elias_the_thief]

can we NOT force a lynch 3 days before deadline?

...I am quickly warming to a DR lynch. Post your results within 24 hours or die.

More than 24 hours has passed.

unvote; vote: Dead Rikimaru

HE HAS CONNECTION PROBLEMS. He has legitimate connection problems and is serving as a mod in one game and a back up mod in mine. Additionally, he has work (i cant say if thats legit or not). However, lynching him when you can just give him 3 more days is plain STUPID.

[Elias_the_thief]

That doesnt mean we lynch him outright. That means we allow him at least til monday, as he promised content by then. If he fails, we lynch him at deadline. How, in any way, is lynching him now superior than lynching him then? At worst, he says more stuff to analize.

[Elias_the_thief]

This is an interesting development, and I guess one of Fhb and DR is scum, barring an elaborate distancing ritual. I suspected DR more (oman, really) but I'm not sure of what to say. I'll try to reread them both when I get home tonight.

[Elias_the_thief]

wait that was the hammer? Is it just me or is it really suspect that the first post of the day from wolf is supposedly the hammer

[Elias_the_thief]

go town.