Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[pablito]

I'm here, and I have read most pages (up to page 10 I think). I have a saved post somewhere that I was writing along with as I was reading the thread, which I will post as soon as I can. I'd do it right now, but I have to say that I'm not sober and that's not going to work well.

[pablito]

First post. Chronological order of reading. Hi everyone. I'm not back for good. Just this game. Better be good. I think I've played with everyone here except bluesoul and elias...and maybe OMGL, but I think I modded a game with him in it. I shall try my hardest to live up to the reputation and logic of PJ, but yeah, you know I'm different than he.

No thought on the quick MBL wagon. Doesn't seem to root itself in scumminess, moreso in personality squabbles that have gone on since I've been gone. I like that the game ran out of the gate though. Much like how the sea monkeys party with shandy and brandy when the cats are in heat.

Quick first impression bad vibes on Ether and Sarc for some reason. Just pings me bad. As far as first page impressions can go. Sarc for the lack of awareness of the bandwagon. Not so much for jumping on, but the fact that he didn't in the first place. Oh, I see that MBL pointed that out for me too. Maybe I'm not used to being around a mostly serious Ether. Could be it.

I like IH's post 159. It finally cleared up for me what was going on with the whole MBL scumbuddy discussion. It also showed me that IH has been reading. He needs a book-it certificate.

e_k backs up way too quickly in post 26 for my taste. If you're going to be obnoxious, follow up. Something something kid gloves.

I also like how MBL and Ether went on about bluesoul. I really like how Ether went about bluesoul stressing the "damage of that post" all despite not really thinking about MBL's alignment. On page 2, I really don't agree with anything bluesoul says. I'm sorry, but I had to gloss over most of it because a lot of it angered me because it just didn't seem like it was based in logical sense. All this absent players stuff and then the distancing thing. Cool, and PJ agrees with me. Usually I disagree a lot with the person I replace (see IH in LO2), but this time it makes a lot of sense.

And here's why I begin to disagree. I'm taking DGB as not too serious of a threat, and PJ strikes for the buttering up of other players. I don't see such a horrible sin in it. But I do agree with e_k that liking a player should not make one believe that the person is more or less town or scum. If anything, it should mean that the "fan" has more ammo to believe that the "star" player is more or less town or scum. If DGB had reason to believe that those three were significantly less scum, that's fine. But I don't see the progression in it. But the act of opening this up isn't horrible in my eyes.

I'm not sure where bluesoul is going with his attack on DGB. He really sounds like he's jumping on a wagon. I should also note at this point that I've been drinking, so the quality will begin to deteriorate. I don't know why bluesoul nor MBL are trying to get into the math. At this point, I'm going to say that bluesoul is at least becoming even more consistent. But really. Why even bother go that route? However, I have to really admire that bluesoul managed to agree to stop talking about it and entice MBL to move onward. But what really gets me is that MBL moves forward quickly with significant questioning whereas bluesoul mostly just wants to be done with being on the defense. Could be scummy on bluesoul's part, could be actual frustration. I think it could easily be frustration. Nonetheless, we should also point to how bluesoul tries to deflect onto DGB.

I like IH in post 159. He shows that he read through and was able to interpret something which had been a long time brewing. I get this argument about everyone connecting everyone else together. In particular, e_k in 222.

I heavily agree on chamber's assessment in post 197. I'm finding it hard to discover where Sarc has been terribly helpful., especially in that specific post. Then again, I am somebody who is just reading a list of posts all in one session without the context of actual reaction time and time exposed overall. Maybe there is a good Sarc post embedded that I just happened to pass over. So far in this game I mostly remember MBL, bluesoul and oddly enough Ether.

In regards to DGB talking about MBL discussing Patrick, I'm confused. I don't see how DGB could have read that MBL was truly building a serious case against Patrick. I sense that DGB was really wanting to move the heat away from her but did so haphazardly. So that means possibly that DGB is frustrated in defense (quite obvious actually). I don't know if it means that she's scum or town, but nonetheless, she's becoming more and more useless to the town. I wouldn't mind if she gets lynched just so we get more information out, but only if we are in serious deadline territory. DGB's post 259 seriously stands out to me.

You're not buttering him up now, are you?

Smells malicious. Usually I've seen DGB enter anger and overall frustration when on the defense, but as far as I remember (and it has been such a long time) I don't remember too much directed snippiness, mostly reactive snippiness. I remember DGB being a jabber on the attack. Jibba jabba.

I generally feel that MBL always adds content, and I've never experienced otherwise, so I don't see what Patrick has said in 261. Then again, maybe I've just been lucky to get the productive MBL in my games.

I have seen DGB state something to the like of "have you thought that I might have a power role" in Insect Mafia or something named like that. She turned out to be a vig, but a very very wrong vig because I doc protected against it. And I protected a mason who then confirmed that role and we kicked off the mafia because of the subsequent sequence.

I really do'nt like the DGB votes MBL sequence. It's very irritating to see DGB like this at this point. But I'm really surprised at how early Ether throws out the possibility of Supersaint after the soft-claim. I'm dismayed that was her first possibility. What I got from DGB wasn't that if she's lynched that her role was better to see, I got that DGB was just being resistant to claim and was throwing out the possibility that we should tempt her and just plain lynch her because she's not giving clues. There's a specific function of that communication that has more to do with her defense than her actual role, in my opinion.

I question OMGL continuing the thought that there's a supersaint in DGB. I highly doubt that DGB is even suggesting supersaint and I'm not sure Ether was either, but OMGL is continuing it. I want the supersaint discussion to stop, and I hope it does by the time I finish this readthrough because this is too long a post. Nonetheless, I do agree that DGB should claim.

Also, elias? what? the? where.

People on my radar: OMGL, DGB, Ether, Sarc, bluesoul, e_k
Off radar: IH, Patrick, chamber, MBL
No idea: Elias

[pablito]

Ether, that's like shaving a goat's udder after it can no longer withstand the hail. I haven't said you have been not serious at all either. Furthermore, I don't remember saying anything about Ether's seriosity when discussing bringing up the supersaint.

bluesoul, whether you have been consistent with attacking DGB or not, the context of you first voting DGB will always be stored for posterity. It's only something to note and I can't forget it.

With DGB's "lynch role threat", I can see the possibility that she's just a vanilla and is making the statement because she wants us to see who actually did bother to put her on a power role before she was lynched. It's such a blanket statement and I see it more as DGB-ness than something to read further. I think there is some possibility she has a power role, but if she is hinting at it, she might as well plain flat say it, because I prefer to read that she has not even mentioned much about her role at all.

[pablito]

Oh, it was a random vote? Then maybe it was your revote on DGB. I'll have to look back, bluesoul.

[pablito]

Gotta stop posting at night when I know I won't necessarily be sober.

@pablito, the main part for me to respond to is my post 261, which I assume was a comment on MBL’s activity. Of course, MBL posts content as both alignments. He’s doing more in this game than I’ve experienced in all 4 of my past games with him (3 of which he was scum). I don’t understand your interpretation of DGB’s half claim either, but even if she was following some convoluted scheme, I’d say it’s high time to realise that it’s not helping. Who do you suspect the most from your radar list? Presumably DGB is up there somewhere due to the vote, but who else?

On MBL - Patrick, I (and maybe foolishly so) tend to put MBL on the back of my mind early on because he's one of the types that posts a lot of content throughout the game. Furthermore, because of his early defensiveness, thanks to you Patrick, we have a lot of reasonable material on him so far. But we shan't forget him completely, but perhaps I have chosen to not think of too much scummy about him so far.

I suspect most Ether. It's a lot of gut, but it's how she pushes things from a secondary standpoint rather than being the initiator of arguments. I find it to be one of my...(damn, I forgot that mafiascum vocabulary word)...oh scum tells. Yeah, the fact that I remember Ether from my read through as someone attacking but not being on the defensive (at least until now), makes me highly suspicious. She's attacking from one of the most advantageous standpoints and I want to put her on the defensive.

Also, I mentioned something about Ether being serious and her defense really doesn't settle me well.

Ether, that's like shaving a goat's udder after it can no longer withstand the hail. I haven't said you have been not serious at all either. Furthermore, I don't remember saying anything about Ether's seriosity when discussing bringing up the supersaint.

I was referring to your page 1 I'm-being-more-serious-than-usual comment (my original post had a reference to the nicknames I gave out in Lights Out 2, but it was sort of tacky). You questioned my belief in my interpretation of DGB's statement here:

I highly doubt that DGB is even suggesting supersaint and I'm not sure Ether was either,

Again, I mentioned Ether being serious in my first post only. I did not intend to question Ether's belief in DGB's statement, I really want to question why Ether had to state it out loud rather than keeping it to herself. To me, it almost sounded like Ether was hypothesising aloud with a scumpartner and really tried hard to curtail or move direction of the discussion at that time. It's a valid thought, and I appreciate that Ether evaluated that alternative hypothesis, but saying the word "supersaint" really brought a discussion that veered everything one way and made us ignore a lot of other things. Because bringing up the role of supersaint will automatically lead us to think of something else - which is who in the town should make the hammer - thus forcing the town move away from a primary suspect and suddenly think about secondary suspects. Saying something like "role which may have adverse affects on hammering" doesn't pinpoint it as much but also brings awareness to the point that we should be aware and cautious about DGB's veiled claim.

DGB I don't know. I feel this is standard play for her, at least from what I remember. But these latest posts get me thinking...mostly that I truly don't get her. I think that due to recent events, I should drop my vote (if PJ's vote still stands), but right now, something doesn't feel so right to me. I just can't get beyond this whole supersaint thing. I agree that a supersaint or something similar could exist, I don't agree that DGB has insinuated such. If DGB does have a power role, I still feel uneasy, but this latest analysis looks promising, but I don't think it's the panacea everyone's looking for either. She remains on my list, but I really don't mind that the heat on her is beginning to dissipate. And I really enjoy that she's participating and she should not feel that her presence and participation is detrimental. As evidenced lately, it's very welcome.

On DGB pointing out me mistaking IH for OMGL, yes, I agree. I made a mistake. I only looked at the backgrounds in the icons and failed to read names. Really bad excuse. That shouldn't change my opinion on either though. That post in isolation does not do more to think better of OMGL or worse of IH. I am quite sloppy, so I don't see what difference it should make to DGB though. I tend to write mostly from memory and I don't take notes, so I will make mistakes. Furthermore, I came into this game with a few pages before me. I am missing out on a lot of the intricacies of interactions between players. I primarily went on post-content to make my initial impressions.

On IH. If he's lurking, I don't care, actually. I at least know his style. As for Elias, I know little.

I am curious to hear what OMGL might think about me confusing him for IH.

I can agree that by reading the posts (as a third party), it really did seem like elvis was hiding behind PJ. I don't know what PJ was doing though. However, despite all this talk about e_k, I'm not sure I have a good sense on her as I do for others I've mentioned. I will need to re-read her posts sooner than later.

I admit I'm pleased with bluesoul's latest posts. It's starting to change my initial opinion on him. Originally he was one of my strongest suspicions, but now Ether and Sarc take that position, with DGB earning the benefit of doubt.

unvote: DGB

for extra breathing room. I can't wait to hear more analysis.

[pablito]

DGB, where did I ever say that I agreed with your analysis on e_k? Just because I unvote you, how am I obligated now to go against e_k? I'm not. And I'm still too lazy to read up on e_k at the moment because I have to pack up for my week long trip.

I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However,

e_k

, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

Patrick, did my last answer suffice or did you want more extrapolation. Just want to check in with you about that since I failed to answer you right away last time.

[pablito]

Well then why would it matter that I don't vote elvis? If anything, I'm more inclined to vote Ether, but I'd still need to see more for that to ever start up.

But I found it strange that you had to make a big production over what I did when I unvoted you. I actually mistook the vote count at that point as there being 5 votes on DGB at that time, so I really didn't need to unvote just to create breathing room, but I'm fine with not voting anywhere right now.

[pablito]

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However, e_k, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.

Okay, so then from the first moment of this game there has been a horrible environment that has been fostered. Okay. Duly noted. However, is everyone guilty of such a thing? And if so who is the most responsible for creating such an environment? And to help you out to actually answer this question, who is the most responsible for counteracting this type of environment?

Hi replacements. I hope you act as a catalyst for us.

chamber, for being pretty talkative beforehand, this vote is joined with little much else. Who do you hope does not join you on the wagon?[/quote]

[pablito]

e_k, maybe you think I set a trap up, but you're whinging about the whole ass-backwards environment but yet you fail to directly address the people who are creating this pair-finding environment. I just felt like you're trying to jab without getting all full of jelly on your hands and I'm trying to figure out what the hell you're doing and if it actually makes sense. On the other hand, even if you think I was setting you up in a trap, you failed to see the last question I gave you - who do you think is doing the most to counteract such an environment. I felt I gave you a good question and thought you may even give a softball answer to the first and then only answer this last one just to make yourself look better.

I just think if you whinge, you gotta give an option to counteract whatever it's about. Blame others if you will, but you have the power to try to change it.

I'll hold off judgment on elias until he gets to the final pages where things may change, but so far this analysis looks mediocre. I'm getting a better feeling off of reading CDB's analysis.

Question - anyone think we're at risk of deadline at this point? I think the replacements have caused an uptick of activity, but I don't want to assume that the days before didn't cause us to fall into deadline.

[pablito]

DGB - are you basically saying that you want someone to hammer now? You seem awfully excited about that possibility.

I won't be badgered to vote, and I like being in the "not voting" column right now. Better than becoming annoyed at someone's defenses and then voting them for being frustrating.

Can't wait for HackerHuck to come back and looking forward to what bird has to say.

elias - do you think that people are more being "lenient" toward DGB because of her recent summary posts, or do you think that others have been more attracted toward some of e_k's latest posts instead? I'm not seeing it as an either-or situation. Looking forward to your analysis nonetheless.

DGB - Try convincing me why I should vote. It won't work, but I dare you to try.

[pablito]

DGB - You and I differ on philosophies. I'd much rather not throw my vote around.
I agree though that bluesoul somehow twisted your ek-selfhammer request. bluesoul just did come out of nowhere lately.

Maybe my words came out wrong, but DGB, I hope to see you rebuild your case or something. You've been hiding behind this e_k thing quite a bit. You sounded somewhat reasonable when you were on the defense, but now while being on the attack, you have a sense of desperation and extreme defensiveness. Sounds as if you're trying to deflect against a suddenly building attack against you. Seems like elias and bluesoul - who were mostly absent since you've made your wide-net desperation analysis - start to mention that your case has been dropped - and you are starting to change.

I intended to ask you to comment on the current atmosphere and why NOW is much better than after everyone finally jumps into the game for me to make a vote. You're pushing votes when I think it's only appropriate to wait for all the replacements to settle. I want to know why you DGB are insistent right now. Maybe my words came out wrong, but I would've hoped that you would interpreted my words how I intended (as described above). Fact that you saw me as truly taunting you makes me feel that you're strongly seeing me as scummy, but you haven't made a case on me - only PJ. That smells scummy and if I were to put a vote at the moment, it'd be you. But I think it's much better for me to wait. Because I worry that a bit of being annoyed is clouding me.

[pablito]

bluesoul - where were you considering moving your vote to? saying you would've and then say "I'm okay on DGB" sounds a bit odd. This isn't a new DGB we're seeing really. Sure, the timing is of notice, but if you were considering moving to e_k or somewhere else than "not voting", then I want to know who and why.

[pablito]

e_k = how come you blame me of setting the trap and patrick for locking the cage but yet chamber asked "who tipped the scales" earlier on and you obliged to answer who you thought was making scum pairings.

Forgive me for not paying attention to that earlier sequence, but you were quite defensive and miffed for answering a question that you actually pretty much answered earlier.

[pablito]

Your answers to my questions sound justified. Thanks, e_k.

[pablito]

vote: bird1111

[pablito]

DGB told me to.

[pablito]

unvote

I mainly wanted to see how bird or DGB might react.

answers: DGB, Ether, chamber and if I'd pick a fourth, it'd be bird at the moment. DGB has this whole thing where she feels more comfortable when others let up on her and she attacks harder, but she has a defense style that really isn't so much defense, but just deflection. I looked over LO1 before and I remember that when she was really on the defense, she tried hard and I felt she defended her self and mainly that was it. She didn't really deflect or let others do much. Plus she kinda went over all the place with more whims. She's pretty directive right now. Ether, I don't feel good about because of stuff I said earlier pretty much. I hope to see more from her later too. Chamber is a new one, I've pretty much let him off. But basically I feel better vibes from pretty much everyone else. But I have a tingling sense when he is most literate. The whole last stuff lately hasn't pinged much. But I do not feel many genuine pro-town vibes from those posts, at least from what ir emember. bird hasn't really made me sway differently away from Sarc's poor play.

elvis sure isn't playing well, but I'm giving her a benefit of a doubt right now. Mostly about some posts later than earlier. The early posts sucked ass. I get a huge sense of frustration from a lot of the posts. I could go in more depth if I can be arsed to actually reread anything. With classes starting (and 20 credits), I'm not in the mood.

Skating? Clearly Elias, Ether and I'd say bird as well. Elias is gone. Ether I want more info from and bird's long post I had to skip because the numbers thing was annoying and hard to read. And bird's other posts didn't really convince me to think in any certain way.

[pablito]

Adding - For me, I had general doubts about DGB because of her earlier behavior, but it wasn't until looking over LO1 last time that I started to really think more about her. Also, in LO1, both she and I were town but we kinda attacked each other. I remembered that it was one of my first games with her and was worth a read.

Also, thank you MBL and Patrick for looking at me as well and not just PJ.

[pablito]

unvote, vote: Elias

There's lots of language in there that is overly defensive and just so so wrong. I wanna put even more pressure on Elias. "According to the town" - is much much different than saying "the two scummy players that everyone is analyzing" or "the two scummy players that people asked me to analyze". Elias almost sounds like he's saying that people are forcing him to pick one of the two, and then actually chooses. If Elias was truly genuine behind his vote he'd say "the two scummier players out there as how I said before".

[pablito]

Okay, Elias.

You somehow get frustrated enough by bluesoul's posts to actually vote, but when DGB asked you to vote (which is a request I did not agree with) you didn't. I think there's a little more behind it all, but it was the way you mentioned how you felt forced to vote. If you were fine not voting all that time, I still question why then was good and I felt like you were really trying to help reignite the wagon on DGB (which in itself is fine), but it kinda distracted from momentum back toward elvis. That's why I found you defensive. Not sure it was the best term, but it definitely gave us information.

Elias, if you say "according to the town" a lot, please give examples. It's a stupid phrase to have, honestly, if it is in your vocabulary. You almost sound as if you're putting yourself not in the town, which in itself is even worse.

I see why you mention those two people now. I thought that you had more to do with choosing why you analyzed those two. But I see now that it was on behalf of MBL's questions. Nonetheless, your reactions so far have not put me at ease.

I am kinda drunk atm (yes, I know it's not an excuse, but it's a fact of life I'm an alcoholic), but I don't see Elias answering MBL's questions and I just want to say that I hope that eventually he answers them. I know he's got other things on his mind, like defending some weak statements, but it's not something to put off forever just because you gave some posts with weak logic and ingenuine answers just recently.

[pablito]

DGB, what's this new case on Elias from you? I don't see too many mentions about Elias from you before except for his lurking and refusal to vote. Aside from that, why vote him now?

[pablito]

I'm really kinda waiting for Patrick and Ether to respond, because I'm curious to how they'll react to the latest conversations.

[pablito]

DGB, I'm still interested to know what really got you on the Elias train despite little to no mention of your suspicion on him earlier.

[pablito]

MBL, which 'her' were you referring to? I assume e_k according to the context. But there's a few females in this game, so just wanted to make sure.

[pablito]

bird in 555, I just didn't like it because I'm too lazy to read along to reference your exact posts that you're mentioning. It's not that your content is devoid, but the format really doesn't inspire me to read it. Sorry. Also, are you not liking Elias enough to vote him or are you just not inspired by his latest defenses? Because if that's the latter, I kinda have to say that's how I feel about you.

[pablito]

I've got approximately 40 pages to write in the next 2 weeks. Sorry for not being around, but work's got me completely. Hence the rampant alcoholism. Yes, I am kinda bored though with this game. I have spurts and secondary winds though. Also, I'm borrowing a wireless connection from some neighbor and it's not perfect. I don't get my router back for another two weeks. Just in case I happen to completely disappear.

This new stuff looks compelling, but I do question how genuine Elias feels. It's genuine frustration no doubt. But the chamber thing from him is kinda extreme. E_K felt the most genuine when being run up - to answer that question. DGB. eh.

with e_k, I get the whole top suspect argument she keeps on mentioning, but I almost think that its repetition is starting to be a curious overkill.

Patrick, why do you doubt that Ether would defend Elias (independent of his alignment)? Why her more than any other person?

chamber's vote doesn't surprise me at all.

DGB's reasons don't look right at all. She is jabbing though, and that is kinda consistent with earlier behavior once suspicion dropped off her. Doesn't make her look less scummy though.

But mostly Elias under pressure is revealing a lot. And the way he's being pretty nonspecific and is going by "previous agenda" before the last vote shows that he has a progression he's been following and doesn't really want to deviate too much away from. Smells scummy to follow his script. If he was town, I'd expect more from him to attack some of the people that are now voting him that were previously on DGB. He's way too defensive.

He also put himself up to a certain expectation and he's showing frustration because he himself can't meet that expectation. Elias never had to promise all these pbps or to actually continue with the game with the early absences, but he chose to do so. In a way, that could be that he's a bit anxious about playing in this game above all others, but there was something very very specific about his last posts that talked all about needing to wait for permission in his other game. No matter what the actual "outside event" was that caused him to keep posting his "will post content later" posts, the fact is that he wasn't really either telling us that he working on it in the meanwhile. It really sounded more like they were excuses for delaying and I think he was really waiting to see if others could give him ammo to deflect in the meanwhile. If the only thing he was waiting for was permission, then I don't see how he couldn't be working on a post int he background at the same time. Then again, he's done this before in the game, so I may excuse him for that.

But I kinda feel that he's focusing extremely on the past when he needs to focus on the present. That's scummy because the past has shown favor on him (we let him off for not-posting, he wasn't the focus, he wants to look back at DGB...etc).

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

New thought as well. Elias said something about knowing he was going to vote DGB because he read, but he just hadn't put up his posts about it. That means he lacks a sense of urgency. I wish he would just post what he says (like what he is doing now) but before there was a big hesitance to make a single peep post that commented on anhything. Maybe that's because I am associating that style of response to e_k, who I am more and more seeing as less scummy. I wonder if there's an inverse relationship right now in my mind.

[pablito]

One of my favorite scumtells is a player referring to outside material. While playing a metagame is fine and conceptualizing others as such is standard - actually acknowledging and *pointing* to other games tends to be scummy for me. It's a way of deflection because the player's game is not very internally reliable. If a player does not have a cohesive gamestyle within that one specific game, a townplayer will try hard to put things through - a scummy defense is to point "well look over there, I was just like that too!". It's scummy because a person can pick and choose what to refer to. A metagame is based on memory and research as well but that's because the person decided to look there.

Elias has done this twice. Once in terms of his language something about the town standpoint. And I already attacked him on it. And now again here about scumhunting. Elias does not feel comfortable with his own game in this invitational to rely on it. While this can be overt frustration, it didn't start until he had to be on the defense. While his last post feels a little better, I doubt that I will be moving my vote for a while.

I like Hackerhuck's post a lot. He really put thought into it and I hope he continues like this. I have to wonder though at the same time how much of it was because he wanted to portray himself much much differently than Elias. But at the moment, I'll give benefit of the doubt and I think he really wanted to do a post like that. Hackerhuck's opinion on Elias PBPs is exactly like my opinion on birds entry posts as well.

I kinda wish chamber would go back to some lengthy posts as well. He seems bored, but not to the point where he's completely abandoning. Doesn't feel too good for me at the moment.

[pablito]

DGB, who are these cowardly non-voters that you speak of?

e_k, interesting that you of all people made that comment about "tying" the wagons. You have the most to lose because of it. Nonetheless, I don't get why DGB and Huck did it. I don't think we should really look at e_k right now. I think we need to pressure up Elias even more.

[pablito]

I've ignored that part about Elias, and I truly hope that it's not the only reason some people are still suspecting him. His defenses have been piss-poor and his behavior doesn't match his own thoughts.

[pablito]

Patrick, you came up with one example about mentioning outside gameplay. I just want to put out the disclaimer that you chose that one example and there probably exist many many examples that counter your argument, but of course, I'm too lazy to look outside this game and therefore prove its existence.

Hence, this is why I feel that Elias defense was a cop-out and a very scummy one at that.

If only Juliet had a chance to overtake the apothecary, she might've just been the one to knife Ether's throat.

DGB - if momentum swings elsewhere, will you follow that too? Or will we actually see you plant somewhere with actual logic?

MBL - are you pleased with this tying stuff and why not?

[pablito]

Weekend is here and I have lot of work to do. I see there's many posts. On a brief skim, I'll say that I don't know enough about CDB to give an opinion either way. I strongly feel that CTD's entry satisfies me, but I still have doubt about bird and Sarc that CTD cannot fully reverse my view on him, and that I still believe that Elias language and behavior from earlier is stongly indicative of scum. And as said before, I don't think e_k is too scummy and has provided genuine analysis that I like that is continuing. I don't think badly of MBL lately because he seems like he's trying. I really find Huck to be the towniest person for me so far. He's the only person to really impress me and made me think otherwise of what OGML said. However, I can sense that CTD came in with a mission and really focused on areas that weren't really seen before. While that is a very very fresh look on everything, if either e_k or elias turn up scum, I could see it as a distraction move. However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I see MBL's reversal as genuine, and I don't think much of it, although I can agree that his language is very strong right now. I see it more as being frustrated with the day and trying to mvoe things along than him doing much else. I continue to vote Elias because I really don't like his low-profile at the moment and also because of what I prevsiouly said about him. I do not feel like I will move my vote, and I want us to not ignore the previous discussion. Since Patrick already posted, I only awawit more from Elias and Ehter.

chamber's nonchalance is more like his real game, but it's very much unlike his previous gaming.

I'll try to post more this weekend if i can because I know I won't post much during next week's weekdays, but I can't promise I'll have that time.

As for scum being active or passive right now, I probably think that scum is a bit passive but is also trying to hide in these new posts. Then again, most of my previous suspects are doing that now anyway.

Also, welcome to the game CTD. I think I want to comment more about CTD's first post, but I want to end my post right nabout now.

[pablito]

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

Totally meta. I remember that newbie game that CTD mentioned. I was doctor and had to defend my actions heavily. CTD was pretty much the last person to be convinced by me. He came into the game pretty nonchalantly and didn't rock the waves. He was town. Then again he came in mid D3 where we were at a very crucial point. We are not here. Also, whenever I kick myself, CTD would heal.

Leading the town as scum is a big possibility, but to do so within the first few posts, it's tough to do I would imagine. I don't think CTD has rusted off the mafia joints quickly enough to do such a gutsy move.

While I think e_k is genuine and is likely town, I'm starting to not really follow any of her arguments. Mostly because we're not going after similar suspects.

I'm wondering when DGB is going to come in and shift her vote or something else completely predictable.

He didn't have to, but just wanted to note that chamber did not switch his vote with his last post.

[pablito]

Chamber, you didn't have to switch. But thanks for the explanation, it makes me feel better.

I'd like to see more votes on Elias, but I hope it's not out of sheer frustration with him.

[pablito]

Thanks for sounding reasonable, bluesoul, but it's not really changing my mind on you.

Also, let's not let the slackers get to us. It's happened before, and we just more replacements. I think a lot of this game keeps on impinging on activity from people that are absent. I don't want this to become a viable scum tactic to just want to keep waiting for more responses. While I'm not sure if any scum are doing this, let's take back the game from activity levels and back into content/behavior/analysis.

The activity picks up when we have new perspectives and it just seems like we wait, we wait, we pressure for more. We get a new post! Then we all attack that person on what they said and then it opens up new thoughts. It's all good and in fact the only way we're currently getting information, but then the person who came back may not want to participate anymore. And some even wait so that they have something perfect to say. I'm not at all excusing any of the slackers' inactivity, nor their desire to not participate. But I think by this point their lack of communication is as good of a communication style as we're going to get. Furthermore, their choice to not participate is telling us something, and it ain't good. If someone's being provoked into participating, unless they're completely off the grid, I imagine they get the message. Saying nothing is a form of communication.

That being said, these slackers have the opportunity to prove us wrong no matter what anyone says. It's up to them to earn the respect of others. You're in an invitational, someone respected you before. Earn it back before you lose it forever. And "lynch me!" posts aren't doing anyone any good. Take a deep breath, say something and stick to it. You don't need the panacea post when you come back into participation. We've seen others try it, and it doesn't always succeed. We don't need the perfect post. While this is an invitational, you don't have to be perfect, you were invited for a reason and it means you're semi-competent if not fully competent. Perhaps you're putting up too many expectations for yourself that you're not reaching. Then that means your self-confidence falters because you're putting up such high expectations for yourself, but don't let it inhibit your play. I read an article on Buddhism a few weeks ago, and it says that the expectations get in the way of the present and the here and now. I think this can apply here.

So Elias, I direct this mainly to you. Your play is pathetic, but you should feel motivated to prove others wrong or if you truly do want to be lynched, then you could a little better than just trying to be a copycat. It's not your emulation of DGB that sucks, it's that you can't even fully do that. You did it haphazardly and ditto with your PBP posts. If the environment of this game is what's preventing you from saying something, then also try explaining why and maybe we can at least see something about those who attacked you later if you're lynched as town. You defend and you defend yourself, but you're attacking back from the wrong angle. You're attacking the fact that you're attacked, and it has little to do with the rest. Just please, give us something.

I must again reiterate that I'm not excusing any of the inappropriate behaviors that have occurred here. I just maintain the philosophy that communication's a two way street. People don't act resistant because they are, but because people communicate at different levels. And if we're going to lynch someone at this point, it looks like we're going to have to motivate him/her to make those mistakes out in the open. I doubt the badgering techniques have worked thus far and will likely not work in the near future.

Also

FOS: Ether and CDB

there is little excuse.

I just got out of four back to back therapy sessions this evening, and I feel like bringing in some of the techniques into here.

And just a note, these next two weeks are hell for me. Expect weekday posting to lull from my end.

[pablito]

Now for some questions:

CDB, why do you have this whole expectation that you need to make a big post? What do you think it would accomplish if you were to do it?

Elias, how do you compare yourself to DGB? Do you feel that focus on her truly disappeared once she did the whole "lynch me" phase or did focus merely shift onto others at that time (and therefore she's been in the back of others' minds since then)?

CTD, you've been in this game for only a short while and you're burning out. To me, this almost seems like it could be somewhat of an act, but it does sound genuine because of your earlier efforts. Is this game at an impasse and if so who are the people that are not advocating their strong suspicions at this point. I think some individual's suspicions are clearly out there but they may not be pushing their agenda full force, who do you see these people as? And if you ever get a chance, what did you think of bird1111?

bluesoul, I wanna hear more on this whole comment on leading the town as scum on an opening play. We've had quite a few replacements, which entry posts have been remarkable for you and which ones haven't? why or why not?

chamber, why not so verbose anymore?

Ether, you said something about how Elias doesn't feel like scum because he didn't pick up quicker on the early DGBwagon. Well he hasn't picked up quickly on much. And at that point in the game he was still slow to catch up. What made his behavior in this game all different then?

[pablito]

MBL, I really want to

FOS

you, but in truth I haven't had many scummy vibes from you, so I'll just pretend to want revenge instead.

[pablito]

DGB, you say that, but your last significant action was the move your vote from Elias to e_k. Why be so hypocritical?

You created a situation where we started to slow down and reversed the trend of progress we could've had. Now that you've seen how the votes went...ie you voted and Huck decided to actually vote, what do you think of so called progress?

chamber, I hope that once we get new information, you'll start up the verbosity again. Also, can you kick someone so we get progress? If you and DGB are tired of the day, can you help make something happen?

[pablito]

Thanks Patrick. My opacity continues.

Well, Elias is posting, and I'm still annoyed by him. At least MBL is looking at Elias' language much like how I did before.

CTD, do you really feel that Patrick changed his opinions based only on you? Seems a bit narcissistic, but I would have to read back to that sequence to really know how it felt.

Patrick, I know you're probably already said it a lot before, but I question why you even bothered to look at me in a non-harsh light. You were at me a lot before and always kept me in mind, and now you're only saying that I was 4th-5th on your list? To me it felt more like a 3rd if not 2nd. But you really seem like you want to see me better but a lot of the PJ stuff kept you back, or am I interpreting incorrectly? But really, if I am hard to read as you say, then why not continue suspecting me more heavily? Is it just that others are bumping themselves up on your list and therefore I'm falling down the list? To me, it just feels like the way you talk about me seems like you force yourself to mention that you lose suspicion on me or gain some rather than just keeping it to yourself for a rainy day. Don't know why this stuck out to me out of all the things I just read either.

Also, I could be for lynching Ether, even with the lurking.

[pablito]

Sorry if my last post made no sense. I stand corrected on CTD's intent. And Patrick, that answered my question.

I'm up for lynching a lurker, but as long as it's one that I want lynched. CDB does not fit that bill.

This game is at an impasse. Right now the votes I don't think are justified for this moment are chamber, DGB and Ether would need to update her vote.

DGB especially deserves the most flak for her vote. She was voting Elias, voted e_k to incite some progress and is truly lacking follow-through with whatever plan she had when she voted e_k. If there was a purpose, she really shouldn't be just laying in the background right now. In fact, we've seen her at her best when she's on the defense...

Therefore,

unvote, vote: DGB

[pablito]

I fully am aware that elias is currently voting DGB too, but this would bring us to a three-way tie, no?

[pablito]

I just realized that DGB said she won't have access until the 11th. Therefore, my last vote does no good for now.

unvote, vote: Ether

[pablito]

I've been gone and now that my main conflicts are over, I should be able to check in more often during the week. However, I will be partying for the next few days to celebrate my finish with this big project.

I will answer questions, specifically the ones baout my Ether vote later, when I'm back in stable mind.

Nonetheless,

unvote: Ether

[pablito]

MBL, I voted for DGB because I felt like she needed some pressure and Elias didn't feel the heat from the pressure that was on him. DGB has shown reaction to pressure and I wanted to see if her reaction would be similar to the previous one. Elias still remains suspect #1 for me, but I felt I needed to go around things differently to see what goes on. And as we've seen, DGB doesn't care right now and pressure won't affect her either.

DGB's softclaim does not surprise me, but I think it sucks. I can't remember off hand, but I'm not even sure if she actually did say she was a power role, but only hinted at the possibility, right? Either way, it wasn't necessarily what

she

did with it afterward that got people to suspect her less or back off her, it was what others did with it (ie: Ether) that really got others to back off her (plus DGB's death-row final confession opinion post). And because DGB really isn't answering much lately, no one feels like pressuring her heavily. Whereas those who react to some pressure have really been on the radar mostly during today. She's possibly scum, but her previous play and my faults from my meta on her make me less certain of my stance on her.

Elias doesn't like that I look at language to find scum, well tough. I think language is the only tell we have here. While some go on logistics and progressive consistency of cognition, I go on how people subconsciously decide to portray themselves through language. I get gut feelings, but I like it. I will say, however, that Elias mentioning this point makes me feel a bit easier about him though.

Elias' PBPAs were meant to be boring, long lists that were extremely esoteric. It was made to help himself find scum, not to persuade others. The layout of those posts were not easy to read and were not emphatic enough to really make anyone care about what he said. And that to me shows more evidence to his lack of scumhunting. At that point he tried to protray that he was looking, but he really wasn't. He seemed like he was going through the motions. That sounds scummy.

Elias, also, I don't remember excusing you from using some awkward language initially. But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately. I think what I said earlier was "I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't mean I see you less scummy". I really think it's the way that Elias is making the town responsible for his need to post certain things and he's been so reactive and less directive. Also "more posts and increased effort" doesn't necessarily mean you'll help us find scum. So whatever I said before Elias, there's more being added.

He says he forgot his original reasons, and calls me out for "scummy behavior" without citing anything specific. His reasoning reads to me as someone trying to go with the flow on my wagon without reading my posts in depth.

I never said I forgot my original reasons, I was saying that no matter what I once believed about you, there is more (at that point) that makes you look worse than previous scummy behavior (which was the way that you used language - specifically "for the town" and the PBPAs). You're trying to defuse my attacks on me Elias, but he's trying to paint me as deficient. I don't like it, in fact. Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric. They almost feel like they weren't intended for anyone else to read; they're like notes.

I finally read a statement that makes me really want to look at some of what CDB did. Patrick's "And my issue with CDB was that he seemed to defer responsibility to other elvis attackers when voting her." Previously I just didn't have the motivation to look at CDB as it seemed like most of the cases were weak. However, I will try to take a look at this case now.

CTD mentioned how DGB, Elias, chamber want the day to end but do little to help it. chamber, I feel would move his vote if something better comes up. DGB moves votes around a little bit but she is doing very little. Elias on the other hand is the most insistent on his suspect. Makes me doubt him a little bit.

My vote on Ether was to see if we could pressure someone into participating more. Also, I still hold suspicion on her. It had a lot to do with DGB's "claim" and a lot of it on how she came into D1. I've never seen her jump into things really strong and it was strange to see that in this game. At the point I voted for Ether, I was not doing it to just vote a lurker. I was looking at who I can vote to actually begin to have the person feel pressure. Votes at this point really aren't saying too much except when it's on Elias.

I see MBL's case on CTD (due to his almost defensive stance on Elias). But I'm not so sure that CTD is scum. I've felt good about posts of his. But there's still a lot of doubt since that role was Sarc and bird. Plus I agree with CTD's reclarification of his stance on Elias. I see how CTD was pushing mostly for Elias to be replaced and that he just doesn't see Elias as necessarily being anti-town. I disagree with this stance, but whatever.

On MBL's list, I would say that I've never seen CDB as townish, just that I didn't get that he was necessarily anti-town. But after catching up on posts, CDB is truly in "need to seriously re-look" pile. My FOS:CDB was due to his activity level here compared to the rest of the site, not because of internal game content.

I previously saw chamber as possibly anti-town, but at this point I see him as very likely town.

At this point, I'd much rather lynch Elias than DGB.

vote: Elias_the_thief

[pablito]

DGB, when you read the sentence after the ones that you bolded, I say that he tried to look like he was scumhunting but was doing it all for show. And for you to say that, especially when he did a PBPA on you and suspected you - I find it interesting that you say that he actually was scumhunting.

But, to clarify, he made posts to try to find scum - but in reality, I feel like he did it for show and was not genuine in those posts. Therefore it was a lack of scumhunting. The progression is more of a result link rather than two definitive statements.

[pablito]

Extremely disappointed in Xyl, but not convinced that his actions mean anything at the moment. Also, I didn't know a Xyl existed until he arrived in this game.

I see no signs that e_k isn't anything but genuine and therefore likely town.

I'd much rather see elias go down today, but I could be up for a DGB lynch. But I've been lately leaning toward that the whole DGB wagon could've been bunk. I'm still trying to take away my personal bias against DGB right now to try to figure that out. But I must say I'm still kinda pissed at her. As I still don't get how she perceived what I said as scummy. It's not even like it's a whole interpost "hypocrisy" it was intrapost and therefore I don't get what's with this whole definition of "scumhunting". I say that scumhunting can be done without being genuine and it's still called scumhunting, but she refuses to see it otherwise.

However, I'm not pleased with bluesoul's vote. I don't see how that's much else except to bring a counter wagon at this time. The counterwagon could've been elias, but bluesoul is clearly made the decision at this time who the counterwagon is.

FOS: bluesoul

I'm very much awaiting Lowell's next post and what he might hold.

[pablito]

Elias is overdefensive. I don't get his attacks on me. Yes, I have been persistent on him, but I do not think it is inconsistent with my game.

Within the chronological context, Elias made his last post when momentum was actually gaining toward DGB. Why he wouldn't focus his efforts on getting DGB lynched at that time is curious for me. It either means he feels comfortable that DGB was going to fall, or he isn't trying to get DGB lynched at all is only focusing on defending against his attacks. Either way, kinda goes to show exactly what I had said earlier - that pressuring DGB hasn't given us much despite the group's efforts. At least in the latter half of this day, but when you pressure Elias one inch he throws back seven yards at you. To me, that's useful. And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him. I still have doubts about DGB, but right now Elias motivation for everything is still focused on him, him, him - and that's not helpful for the town. Luckily, he's probably scum, so we shan't need to worry about lynching him.

Xyl, aside from the whole thing where e_k is trying to help DGB reinterpret my whole idea on "scumhunting", have you bothered to look at other interactions between pablito/PJ and e_k? Well, please do look at such in the future. I think e_k was just being honest, and it's not inconsistent with e_k.

Elias, show us how lynching DGB has been your priority.

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now, except one thing.

Those PBPA posts, specifically http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1248363]this on e_k[/url] and http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 40#1259040]this on bluesoul[/url] mean nothing to me. Why? Elias is forcing me to read along with him rather than trying to explain in text what he thinks about these people the entire time. I'd much rather that he take the pertinent parts and explain it further. So while these posts may be "scumhunting" they did nothing to persuade anyone because these posts didn't look genuine or persuasive enough to sway someone. That's what I mean with the whole "scumhunting" thing.

Will read more later. Also, will be gone this weekend up through Monday night.

[pablito]

Oh, that post was written up earlier this morning, so probably should've taken off the question to Xyl.

[pablito]

I just don't have the time to listen to your whining now. I'll answer when I'm in right mind. I skimmed you, but it still doesn't sound effective. Thanks for trying something new, though, Elias.

[pablito]

Ok. Time to take care of unfinished business from yesterday.

Odd that DGB accelerated her wagon. I wonder why she did that. Obviously she felt that scum are in an interesting position if she was willing to take herself out. I'll be reading her over again when I get the chance.

Knowing that Lowell has claimed vig, I'm going to have to go back to the DGB wagon and see who really took heart to what Ether had said. Up until Lowell claimed, I was feeling a lot of scummy vibes. Still do, but I think the claim makes sense for what Lowell has done. It doesn't explain Ether's behavior, but we're not going to find out why she did a lot of what she did.

e_k and DGB's interactions make me feel even better about e_k than before. Still don't suspect her anymore than I did before.

I'm not sure on this Patrick argument, but when I have time I'll try to see if it looks worthwhile. Probably won't, because it looks like the whole reason why e_k is looking there is because of Patrick's interactions with Ether - which doesn't make sense because we have Lowell's claim. Oh, I see where e_k is going on Lowell now. Interesting. Well it can be tested as was previously stated. And would be too risky for mafia to take the risk.

I'm going to look back at Sarc and DGB. e_k's got a point on it.

Ah time to address elias. I don't feel like I want to, but I'll do it to try to get him off my back. I could wait to answer and see him steam even more, and he'll probably flounder, but I got time so I'll do it.

Elias is overdefensive. I don't get his attacks on me. Yes, I have been persistent on him, but I do not think it is inconsistent with my game.

I am not overdefensive. I addressed everything you attacked me for. I barely even attacked you, besides calling your attacks on me deficient. I dont believe that overdefensiveness is a scumtell anyhow, but I'm noting this blatant misrepresentation for tomorrow. Or maybe today if you keep making ridiculously bad posts like this one.

Within the chronological context, Elias made his last post when momentum was actually gaining toward DGB. Why he wouldn't focus his efforts on getting DGB lynched at that time is curious for me. It either means he feels comfortable that DGB was going to fall, or he isn't trying to get DGB lynched at all is only focusing on defending against his attacks.

This is more ridiculousness. I responded to your post because it was attacking me, and saying that your number two choice was DGB. If I can successfully refute your arguments against me, then the only logical thing for you to do is fall back onto DGB. With most of the town falling in the direction of DGB, defeating the attacks of one of my more stubborn attackers is a good way to move towards that lynch.

The biggest thing I saw was that, you Elias, were trying to attack me when DGB's wagon was building up momentum. There was no need to address me but you chose to do so. You could've ignored me for the moment and said that we should focus on lynching DGB, who reportedly was your big suspect. I'll have to look at this though, because it didn't always feel like you were on her. Then again, you were on her quick, so I don't know. Nonetheless, you spent an unnecessary amount of time and effort parrying my questions. I did so to provoke you. At this point in time, I think you're just paranoid and a poor townie, because I'm not sure scum would have done what you had done at all - especially when there was a scumbuddy at stake. But you're still on my list.

Yes, DGB was in my sights, but I still fail to see how answering me was more effective and efficient than telling me "you should look at your number two suspect than trying to badger me". To me all I remember of you of D1 was you whining and whining. And in the whining, I saw a lot of poor moves. It's convoluted logic to say that addressing me was for the greater good. It was a selfish move and scum tend to be selfish and focus on what happens to them individually.

Either way, kinda goes to show exactly what I had said earlier - that pressuring DGB hasn't given us much despite the group's efforts.

Then why are you allowing her to lurk through the day with minimal posts and commitment to any certain standpoint?

I did pressure DGB at one point, but she was gone. It was minimal pressure, I agree, but I did not let her lurk. In fact I would've gone further, but then my momentum turned back to you instead when she came back. As much as I focused on you, you didn't help to get me off the case either.

At least in the latter half of this day, but when you pressure Elias one inch he throws back seven yards at you. To me, that's useful.

Its what I do. Very clever Pab, youve discovered that I am being consistent with my meta. Very useful indeed This portion of your post is fairly accurate though, in the sense that your attacks are the equivalent of an inch.

So then why did you even pay attention to me if you didn't feel that the attacks were worthy? There's this sense that I got from you (and still do) that makes me sense that you're overdefensive - which in my mind means defending yourself when there is no need. You say you're not overdefensive but yet you paid attention to me. You agree that if I pressured an inch and you threw back seven yards, then how is that not the definition of being overdefensive? Maybe it's meta, but it's a poor metagame and I can't really pay attention to your meta because I've never experienced it in a real time game. Again, pointing to meta game is a bit scummy. I can look at your meta if I want, but you pointing to it is a way of externalizing blame - and that, sir, can be scummy.

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him. I still have doubts about DGB, but right now Elias motivation for everything is still focused on him, him, him - and that's not helpful for the town.

More than enough information? You havent listed any specific things that I havent refuted at least sufficiently to drop under your top one spot. You claim that I'm unhelpful, yet all you've done for the last 5-6 pages is attack me baselessly, and with no details that allow me to defend myself.

Your tone alone is enough information for me. I am not a big content-based searcher. I go on language and motivation and intent. Yours screamed scum. I'm sorry if you can't defend against it, but you don't need to defend yourself, you just have to show me with how you proceed with things. Defending against a motivation/intent argument is by demonstrating genuine intent later. I find it sad that you believe that the entire game is all about content and details that can be defended. I find non-verbal contextual tells. I hope that you don't see the game as being like evaluating every single little bit of text is a pure technical standpoint. As you can see there's a lot of emotion in this game and that's what I'm trying to look at.

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now, except one thing.

Maybe because I refuted your arguments and pointed out the gaping flaws in yoour attacks?

Those PBPA posts, mean nothing to me.

The wording in my pbps is what you claim motivates your vote. MAKES SENSE.

Why? Elias is forcing me to read along with him rather than trying to explain in text what he thinks about these people the entire time. I'd much rather that he take the pertinent parts and explain it further.

The fact that you'd prefer it if I formatted my PBP's differently does not make me scum. And you're a good enough player to know this.

Again, the way you format your language shows me your intentions and motivation. If you don't care for my language and contextual clue argument, then just call it "gut" because that's what most players call it these days.

So while these posts may be "scumhunting" they did nothing to persuade anyone because these posts didn't look genuine or persuasive enough to sway someone. That's what I mean with the whole "scumhunting" thing.

Why does that make me scummy?

To be a genuine scumhunter in my mind you need to have two skills - the ability to find clues and the ability to express and persuade others to take value in those clues. You were aiming for #1. You failed in #2. That failure is what made me believe you were scum. You didn't even try to persuade anyone. I will try to re-evaluate you today. My sense of your interactions with DGB are worth giving you a second look.

Elias, show us how lynching DGB has been your priority.

No. In fact, lynching DGB is no longer my priority.

unvote, vote: pablito

.

Reasons for the vote, if anyone missed them:

1)

Going with the flow mentality (also, deficient attacks). Citing generic reasons that others are voting me, while ADMITTING FREELY THAT HE DIDNT READ MY POSTS IN DETAIL

Failure to express his findings in a significantly persuasive fashion. I don't need to read to know that you're failing in #2 - and I feel that scum tend to fail in that regard because they don't want to condemn anyone.

Also, I didn't read his posts in depth because they're esoteric.

Regardless of whether theyre esoteric, voting me for something you didnt even read thoroughly is ridiculous.

If you want, call it my style and ignore.

2)

Misrepresenting my defense. Pablito has called me overdefensive on more than one occasion, when my responses are perfectly warranted, as I am one of the two leading lynch candidates with deadline looming. I have responded to every point he has brought up and have in no way overreacted to my current situation

3)

Suspicious connections to DGB. Though Pablito has replaced her as my number one suspect, DGB is still up there. The fact that you've been applying double standards left and right about how much we are pressured, how much we are lurking, how much we are scumhunting etc, is very VERY suspicious. This is one of the main reasons I'm ok switching to you at this point.

4)

Evasiveness. On numerous occasions pab has dropped generic phrases, such as

And I think there's more than enough information on Elias now to condemn him.

and

But whatever reasons I once had, none of it distracts from a lot of the scummy behavior lately.

Pablito fails to elaborate on these points. In my last defensive post, I point out how his lengthy argument supporting his vote for me is lacking in almost every way. I list each argument he makes against me and show how most of it has to do with DGB not responding to pressure and how he almost has more points supporting me than attacking me. He ignores the post. His justification for this?

I don't care to answer much that Elias addressed to me right now

The context at that time was that I didn't have the time or effort to listen to you. I was saying that I didn't value your argument at that time. Sorry I offended you. I do agree that the wording was off on that one. I value the argument now that I have time. But at that time, I didn't feel it was necessary to answer you for the sake of the town.

Nice Pablito. You dont care to. And you dont "get" my attacks on you When MBL posted my analysis of DGB, it opened my eyes somewhat to the fact that it really isnt THAT strong. Up until now it was the most scummy behavior that I felt I had seen. With your last post, you have WAY eclipsed that. The "I don't care to" is really what sealed it for me.

Still waiting for a response to this. Your double standards between me and DGB alone are worthy of a lynch.

vote: pablito

I don't get you. You seem to put value in things that I don't. And likely vice versa. But you even agree that you aren't even playing clearly. I'm a bit annoyed that you said you'd take the time to come back in D2 with a better game, but so far you're still focused on me. And well at least the "thing that sealed it for you" was actually a contextual error. I didn't mean to word things that way. Maybe I did at that moment because I was truly frustrated with you. But reading back I think I intended to say that I just didn't think that me addressing you was the priority for the town - especially since I was going away at that time and it didn't seem urgent before I came back - which unfortunately I did not get a chance before DGB was lynched.

Elias is still up there, but I'd much rather re-evaluate him in D2 instead of just sticking with it. I think I might've gotten annoyed by his motivation with the game and because I actually tried to help him but he just threw it right back at me as well as others in this game. At least we now see that he wasn't the only thing holding us back.

Right now I'd much rather look at the early early DGB wagon and to see how that worked. There's gotta be a gold mine there.

[pablito]

Especially considering your position that you didn't like her soft claim and her persistent refusal to full claim? Merely posting an analysis seems like a drop in the bucket considering the other serious problems you had with her.

It only dropped her one place on my list, it's not like I suddenly decided she was town. Do you find that position reasonable? Because pablito unvoted DGB in the post directly after for reasons which seemed at least partly to do with DGB posting analysis as well, and I notice you just glossed over that and said he's town.

Interesting that e_k went to a blanket analysis on my vote. My reasons, from what I remember, are that:

a) DGB pointed out a mistake in my own logic - that bought points.
b) I wanted DGB out of lynch threshold at the moment - which I did not need to do because she was already out of it. In this post, I explain that I did not need to unvote.

Well then why would it matter that I don't vote elvis? If anything, I'm more inclined to vote Ether, but I'd still need to see more for that to ever start up.

But I found it strange that you had to make a big production over what I did when I unvoted you. I actually mistook the vote count at that point as there being 5 votes on DGB at that time, so I really didn't need to unvote just to create breathing room, but I'm fine with not voting anywhere right now.

And afterward I just didn't see a reason to go back at that moment.

Also, on a short skim of my own posts in D1, I see myself asking a lot of pointed questions toward DGB. I don't remember how many she actually answered though. I don't think I completely ignored DGB, which it appears as if elias is trying to say.

[pablito]

Ok analysis of DGB's first wagon build-up and deflation. This is a skim through of all posts related to DGB during that point. Interesting how focus was very heavy on DGB early on. I'd like to think that scum must've been shaking in their bones if they truly thought she was going to be lynched.

On page 2, DGB actually refrains from voting MBL to make the fifth vote, claiming to want to find his buddies first. She also says that Sarc has caught MBL-scum. This is the post where DGB initially had suspicion. Without this post, DGB would not have had such high focus in early D1.

I think bluesoul's interactions with DGB clearly do not indicate a connection. PJ was pretty adamant against DGB as well based on how she took the whole MBL vote thing. e_k was an early adopter on the DGB wagon as well. I feel good about those who were against DGB early on.

DGB quickly stated her suspicions of both PJ and e_k. I think this is where the whole PJ and e_k copying argument started. Interesting that it came from DGB.

When Sarc comes back and posts, he wonders why DGB calls him astute. Sarc says DGB is one of his top three suspects. There's a weird joking interaction between Sarc and DGB, but it's pretty open and out there.

In post 188, DGB says something worthwhile in retrospect:

And we would have no reason to bus each other day 1 with no provocation and no prior suspicion. If you think it's "definitely a possiblity" you're out of your mind.

Hey, day 1 is the best day for bus'ing.

Right out of the gate.

Of course without provocation or prior suspicion. That's how you can tell bus'ing apart from scumhunting.

I have to wonder if that was a sly commentary on what was going on at that time. Doubtful as those she had interaction with I feel are likely town - ie: bluesoul and e_k. out of the gate she was attacked by bluesoul and DGB attacked MBL right away. I just have to wonder if there's more we can make out of it.

PJ extends his case against DGB, and then Sarc votes DGB with little explanation that I can see stated. They have some back and forth that mainly focuses on Sarc's discussion about bluesoul than with each other. Sarc's vote was very very weakly justified and it felt artificially built up. It seemed as if Sarc was trying to falsely build up a case toward DGB then vote her in the next post so it didn't look like it came out of nowhere. I think that if Sarc had just voted DGB out of the blue, it would be more consistent with his behavior than if he had started to doubt DGB's humor.

Patrick votes DGB then because of her attack on bluesoul, despite himself only having a neutral vibe on bluesoul at that time.

If DGB openly told her scummates to bus her in that one post, I would feel that she was directing it toward Sarc or Patrick. That's a big stretch of the imagination that DGB would truly ask them to bus her openly in text though. Patrick justified his vote at least, Sarc did not. Neither of those votes, however, are enough to make me suspect both of them now based on the DGB wagon.

Patrick then furthers the PJ-e_k connection and calls it parroting this time. e_k sticks on Patrick at that point. I'm starting to see how e_k has been suspecting Patrick for quite some time now. and starting to value the argument.

There's an interesting dynamic between Patrick-MBL-DGB. MBL analyses Patrick and DGB thinks that MBL was building a case against Patrick and would vote. MBL didn't. DGB calls him out on it. I don't know how to feel that DGB was trying to start the case on Patrick without doing it herself - therefore I feel somewhat better about Patrick.

Patrick then finds some inconsistencies in DGB's suspicions and how genuine they feel. I feel Patrick was bringing back momentum toward a DGB wagon after the above dynamics. e_k votes DGB afterwards for making a blanket "everyone seems townie" statement. After voting DGB, Patrick really amps the pressure and has pointed follow-up questions for DGB.

In post 281, DGB again mentions busing. (on her at that time were: PJ, bluesoul, Sarc, patrick, e_k).

Please respond. I should probably explain that I found Post 239 fairly opportunistic, and I don't see how it's a townie thought process. It strongly implies you'd have voted me if MBL had, and didn't because he didn't. The follow up soon after which says you only find bluesoul even slightly suspicious baffles me more than I find it scummy, but I want to understand the thought process there too.

I'm getting bored here. Anything I do or don't do is interpreted as scummy. It's getting old.

I made a mental note to watch the two of you for evidence of bus'ing.

I'm still not sure what to make of that incident. MBL makes a case against you, does not vote you, I found THAT to be scummy. So no, I wasn't going to vote for you. That didn't jump at you as being scummy??? And then you react by claiming this was not a case against you at all. I've never seen that kind of behavior and I don't know if you're townies caught in your own pointless verbiage, or if you're scumbags trying to set up false trails for later confusion.

The next post thereafter, Patrick unvotes DGB. Hmm. chamber asks for a claim, then DGB gets angry and claims PJ has a weird way of asking questions and isn't letting up on his vote. She feels that everyone at that point wanted to get rid of her more for her personality than her alignment.

This is when it gets good and the genuine actions will show up.
In the climax of the situation this comes up in post 291:

278 ("Who has considered the possibility that I have a power role?") irritates me on several levels.

Argh, just lynch me already. Heres's a good reason: I now I want the scum to win. Really. The scum is walking all over us.

I see a bunch of people getting caught in trivial, but lenghty verbiage, everyone speaks smart but no one draws any conclusions, except the easy lazy ones. You have some players that chime in "DGB must die" "as long as DGB dies today" and you're just going along with it.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the town isn't playing and letting itself be carried by the scum.

Enjoy the ride, you deserve to lose.

Now go ahead and lynch me.

Was DGB truly just annoyed with everyone because she could no longer defend herself anymore? Sounds like she was annoyed with the people that chimed in. To me this could be a scum partner joining a wagon or she was misdirecting her "anger" toward easier targets at that time. I do feel scum was on the wagon at that time based on DGB's reactions.

MBL sounds sympathetic toward DGB, but e_k and bluesoul both echo the question about why soft-claiming. Then MBL gets on PJ's case and that begins a derailment. PJ then gives up pretty much.

Patrick later claims that e_k's vote on DGB worries him. Almost sounds like Patrick was fully off that wagon at that point. Ether later votes and DGB asks for the hammer.

OMGL places a check-in post from Yos Beach Fest. Patrick checks in but has limited wireless access. (neither voted DGB at that time - I think these instances could look like tactical lurking but both had very very strong reasons why they really weren't posting at that time.)

Here's what I've been looking for. Post 327 is where Ether puts out the super-saint idea. I'm interested in who jumps and possibly runs with it or makes a big deal out of it.

e_k is next to comment and doubts it.

Patrick focuses a lot on the lurkers at this point (as a result of MBL's agenda) but also wants a full claim because he's not fully buying supersaint. He's not completely denying it either. Patrick did not like the wagon because of the stickiness of the votes.

e_k gets annoyed by Patrick wanting to connect her to PJ again.

While OGML does not think DGB is supersaint, he is urging a full claim (like all others) and is the first to volunteer to be the hammer as he's a bad lurker. This post also set off MBL and it did for me on my first run through as well. It was very odd that OGML was so willing to volunteer.

As a result of earlier conversations and the resulting defenses, e_k unvotes DGB and votes Patrick, but at the same time offers to hammer DGB. And points to the fact that she's off the wagon and can thus do so.

Patrick finally decides to vote DGB after the main conversation points were about e_k and him talking about the e_k + PJ connection. Reason for vote was the delay on the claim.

IH checks in posts and does nothing.

Overall and at this point in my reading, I feel that MBL was the worst distractor from DGB momentum. He cited lots of reasons to suspect her and he had a lot of attention on her, but he focused mainly on lurkers. He later was a huge pusher for her wagon. I think it's important to note that of the active players at that time, only chamber and MBL were really not moving. And e_k was willing but had issues with Patrick at that time. OGML, IH and Elias were all lurking and therefore were not moving their votes. Sarc was also lurking, but was on DGB.

Argh. MBL is the one who brought up the supersaint argument after it was laid to rest for a while. I would've had very very scum vibes from MBL if he had not been already killed last night. bluesoul bit on the SS argument, but I don't see his response as scummy. e_k clearly is still willing to hammer, someone just needed to vote DGB at that point. chamber bit and then DGB posts her analysis.

I will make a new post for the post-DGB "actual defense" posts.

At this point, Patrick is the biggest question mark I have on the DGB wagon. He detracted but also built up the wagon in some ways. I think OGML and Sarc have the worst views though after this analysis. Both had weak reasons for not taking any action but still commented on DGB enough where their actions did not seem justified. I feel much better about bluesoul and e_k.

[pablito]

Starts on page 16.

First, our lurkers, Elias and IH. 'Cuz the easy ones first.

IH has 7 posts in the game. Four of these seven posts contain excuses or no content at all. One actual post every five of days. These posts are reasonably sized, with some content, if a bit rambling and fuzzy but maybe that's my understanding.

Now, which players have called IH out for lurking, which haven't, etc?

MBL - quite aggressively.
Elvis - after MBL wrote: "elvis: "i like chamber", nothing on elias or IH"
pablito actually likes IH . In fact, pablitoo twice mentions how much he likes IH's post #159. pablito says: "I get this argument about everyone connecting everyone else together. In particular, e_k in 222." HOWEVER, pablito points to a post by OGML but not a post by IH! Even though pablito likes OGML's post, he actually says that OGML is on his radar, and IH is not!!! Interestingly, pablito is calling out Elias for lurking, but not IH. Why the unequal treatment?

This is uncharacteristically sloppy work by pablito. I want to know what he thinks of IH. And while he's at it, I want to know what pablito thinks of OGML.

Like pablito, Patrick also calls out Elias for lurking, but not IH. In this post,, Patrick makes what can almost be construed as excuses for IH's lurking. He later says: "I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game." Why not today, why tomorrow? What does he expect to change? Patrick does get townie points for pointing out that MBL seems to label IH & Elias as town for "no particular reason."

bluesoul complains about the lurking, he gives no names, but is willing to vote me for lurking and not claiming even though I've "lurked" far, far less than either Elias or IH, neither of which have responded satisfactorily to any pressure.

Neither IH or Elias have voted. IGMEOY, FOS's, top suspects, but no vote. That part I don't get. It's clear that Elias is not even following the game, but IH at least pretends to. Yet he has no found cause to park his vote somewhere.

I want it on record that some players are letting these two get away with lurking and not voting, and happily jumping on my wagon.

More to come, I have to decide who's next.

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

More to come.

chamber unvotes.

Elvis:

Ether picks up on elvis' stiffling discussion by dismissing's MBL 'first content in the game.' Elvis immediately agreed that the criticism was correct.

Very, very early in the game, in post #41 to be exact, elvis imediately puts bluesoul on the defensive by asking if he thinks MBL is scum. It feels like a trap, because being this early, there's not much that bluesoul can answer that couldn't be misinterpreted as scummy. I note that he made a wishy washy answer and ducked successfully.

Again prematurely, there's this very scummy post:

Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.

It's scummy because she's using MBL's argument/attack to herself attack Patrick while looking like she's supporting MBL, without having to make the argument herself, and being protected against a counter-attack from Patrick because heck, it's MBL's argument, not hers. This small little sentence is manipulative on a great many levels. It smacks of scum. Now let's see who pickedk it up and who let it slide.

Patrick didn't put up with it and voted elvis in the next post. Elvis responded in what I believe to be an indignant tone: "And that makes you want to vote me?" So here I have to consider the possibility of distancing. Interestingly, Patrick's take on elvis's post is a bit like mine: "Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit." Indeed, I agree.

Sarcastro, OGML and PJ totally ignore it. I'm not sure how to interpret it, but it is noted.

Elvis' next move consists in voting for me for "buttering up three people in a single post" - a quote by PJ. So once again, elvis shields herself from attack, counter-attack and criticism by hiding behind another player's action.

Once again, Patrick call out elvis, pointing out that she's not commenting on players' alignment (though I will add that she herself demanded it of others), and that she hangs on to details that are not relevant, and she recognizes are not relevant.

So either Patrick is bus'ing elvis on he's on her case more than anyone so far.

Finally in this post she relents and answers some of Patrick's questions. I can't put my finger on why, but the whole post reeks of post hoc. However she puts a lot of effort trying to ward off Patrick's attacks. This diminished the probability of bus'ing, in my book.

Also, she rails a lot against MBL, who I cautiously put on my town list in the game. I have to think about that. She wrote: "Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL." Then she unvotes me, and votes MBL. Hmmmmm...

bluesoul ignores the elvis issue, alons with Sarcastro, OGML and PJ previously, I'm adding him to the list. MBL FOS's elvis. I have to confess that I would have felt more comfortable if he'd voted elvis outright.

PJ finally addresses elvis in post 104 - shockingly by announcing that he's FINE with elvis' catch up posts. How could an intelligent player like PJ buy this? Were they that good? I'm not seeing it.

In post 105, elvis does bring up a good point against MBL.

At last OGML has something to say on MBL vs. elvis - OGML attacks MBL and ignores elvis.

Brilliant, Ether picks on "Why hasn't anyone but Patrick ever so much as commented on this?" about elvis. Yeah, that's a bloody good question.

Elvis responds to Ether's challenged with an other sneaky couter-attack in post 114 where she asks: "why do you still have a problem with the question I asked Patrick?" which is kinda worded like "when did you stop beating your wife?"

Sarcastro makes a substantial post and again ignores elvis, but places MBL on his suspect list.

elvis's 153 is pure unadulterated squirming. Look at this wishy-washy, say-nothing sentence: "He had a point about me not being involved enough, so, yes, he could be scum, but not necessarily." Yep. Everyone could be scum, but not necessarily. What a way to plump up a post without saying a thing. She's answering to MBL, and this time she's serious with it, she doesn't seem to hid behind other players the way she started the game.

In post 158, elvis produces this little gem to chamber: "Care to explain what you believe is strange and why that brand of strangeness = scummy? And why you vote bluesoul over MBL if they are both strange?" What??? I know she's beating the drum against MBL (though she's very very willing to vote for me too), but she quickly object to a vote on bluesoul. At this point I don't think elvis is bus'ing MBL. She's overdone it, to qualify as bus'ing.

As an aside, OGML makes 3 posts in row. None of them have an opinion on MBL or elvis. Nope. He's seeing what no one else is seeing: "Sarc, PJ and Ether" What??? Uh??? Elvis and OGML share some friendly non-game banter.

PJ still comes in and ignores elvis vs. MBL. PJ does it again. And again.

I'm up to page 10 with elvis. More to come.

SO far, Sarcastro, OGML, bluesoul and PJ - totally giving elvis a free pass in the game.

And who was voting for me at that point in the game? petroleumjelly, bluesoul, Sarcastro, Patrick, elvis_knits. Elvis herself, and two of the player that keep giving her a free pass, Sarc and PJ. OGML is off the wagon. Speculation: if elvis is scum, she's scum with OGML and one of Sarc and PJ.

Big guess here, but I'm thinking DGB was clearing e_k, but someone on that list is a likely scum buddy, but not all of them. I would not be surprised if OGML or Sarc are scum. Of course, I'm not scum - even though PJ is listed.

After the posts, MBL was completely convinced. Patrick unvoted and followed suit to go to e_k but I don't see reasons for that sequence. I unvote DGB for breathing room, then afterwards Ether unvotes and goes to e_k not because of recent discussion but to even up the wagons.

DGB decides to tackle Sarc next after the pressure has fully been taken off. She stated that Sarc never had reasons for his vote. But that was already an issue that someone already brought up previously. Then DGB talks about OGML - but not about his posts or anything except for OGML's view on e_k. Very very weak. And DGB got away from truly addressing OGML. There was other stuff, but it was almost as if DGB was trying her hardest to mention that OGML ignored e_k. Also ignores that OGML was willing to hammer.

Pretty much pressure was off DGB, so I'm only going to focus on posts from the "lurkers" at that time.

Sarc came back and asked why we didn't lynch DGB yet. This was three days after the mass unvotes. Sarc then pretty much says he'll be replaced, but first IH and CDB enter the game.

Elias comes back with an analysis post. Sees DGB or bluesoul as his possible scum.

CDB comes into the game and sees DGB as def-scum - good. Afterwards Elias comes back and supports this claim. Hmm. Elias moved momentum back toward DGB, but was not voting DGB - which would've tied up the wagons close enough at that point. But CDB actually unvotes DGB and moves to e_k to put her at L-1. Not because of anything but to find out the relationships between e_k and others.

Elias then comes back and does not go toward e_k (who is at 6 votes) and instead brings momentum toward DGB. Interesting.

People who posted when e_k was at 6 but did not vote her: Elias, bird/Sarc, pablito, Huck, bluesoul. In fact Huck even saw a valid case, but did not vote. But he was pretty arrogant and was saying I'll vote but I want a little more. I'm feeling good about e_k being town, but if Huck is scum - I'd have to reread that stuff with Huck threatening to vote e_k because it almost sounded like Huck wanted e_k to convince him not to vote.

bird even votes DGB at this point. Well at least it was consistent with Sarc. CDB is the one who broke the momentum against e_k by unvoting from the wagon. But MBL committed to unvoting and that lost the wagon.

So the whole DGB->e_k sequence. The whole sequence makes me feel better about Elias and slightly better for IH/CDB/Xyl as long as e_k is town. The people I did not like at all were Sarc/bird/CTD and OGML/Huck.

Sarc was very much against DGB. And bird did a weird thing where he voted DGB right off the bat. Considering that Sarc had absolutely no reasons and DGB was hinting at busing, I can't get over the possibility that Sarc was busing and CDB was just following the precedent that Sarc set up. It just seems that Sarc/bird were trying to find some reason to always vote DGB and it wasn't very strong. I will look at CTD though.

And with OGML - there's that very strange thing where he volunteered to be the hammer. If this was a scum bus move, it makes sense. If OGML is DGB's partner, he would know that he was not at risk for being taken out, can state confidence that DGB is not a SS and also show that he's not very worthwhile. I'll have to reevaluate Huck to really know.

[pablito]

e_k, I don't think I've had many suspicions of bluesoul today. Yesterday I did have some, but not today.

[pablito]

The only time he (HH) got really involved was when he himself was attacked (by me). I find that somewhat suspicious in itself.

CTD, why is this suspicious? And how does that relate to how he's being run up and is still absent?

I've had some concerns about her when reading this game. I'm actually used to a bit more aggressiveness from her - vote hopping and such - and her lackadaisical attitude was a bit distressing. The detailed analysis gave me a bit more comfort, but I also feel that her usefulness on Day one might be limited since she seems to do better when she's had more to work with.

Hmm...can we say that, in retrospect, scum should even have any usefulness? While it was helpful that Huck mentioned how he felt at that moment, we know she's scum - not sure that was a good statement. And it seems that CTD has already argued that point now that I'm reading more posts.

On Xyl's lists - he should probably add Patrick in my suspicions of now.

pablito's switch in emphasis on who he finds scum is interesting. I'd like some explanation there. Overall pablito seems to be posting lots of text, but not voicing much in the way of concrete suspicions. Scummy.

Yeah, lots of text and me pondering what value my previous suspicions held. At this time, I'm still ambivalent on Elias. I was hyperfocused on him yesterday possibly because I was still angry at his playstyle more than what suspicions made sense. I think that due to his interactions with DGB, he's not really a good suspect for scum anymore, but then again, his D1 play really did ping a lot of feelings. He's now in my middle list of suspicions.

I really thought Ether was scum and Lowell doesn't look good either. The only thing going for him is the vig claim. I believe that. That's why I have really dropped the case on both for now. I will reevaluate Elias later, but I'll need a fresh look on him and now's not a good time for me to be able to do it.

After reading D1 over, I felt that Sarc and OGML were the scummiest in regards to DGB. I think I stated that I wanted to give both CTD and Huck a lookover to see if their actions as well would lead me to fully suspect them. I will look over CTD and Huck in just a little bit to see where I stand on both. But if neither does much to convince me otherwise, then I'll know where I stand. However, I found a lot of interesting things with Patrick in the DGB wagon, and he was never replaced, so I think I could go with a Patrick vote with ease at this point. The things I found about Patrick were subtle and could only be discerned knowing that DGB is scum. I think I outlined them in a post earlier today.

I've pretty much seen ek and bluesoul as town. And with Xyl, hmm. The hammer is a bonus, but his predecessors weren't clean. But I don't find him to be a priority to look at today.

[pablito]

The lack of being replaced means that I have a sense of consistency with you. With Huck and CTD, I have to check the break in consistency when one was replaced or not. Therefore, at the moment until I really check them out I can give them a break.

From memory, what I remembered from my analysis posts in D2 was that Patrick derailed significantly from the DGB wagon. That's what really stuck in my mind. So while I was a question mark at that time, I put you third on my suspicion list right now. But really, what always matters most to me on my suspicion list is who I've taken out of the equation. Everyone else kinda filters up and down on occasion.

Re: Xyl, the fact that he hammered gives him a bonus, but I don't know how much value the bonus is, especially now that I remember that DGB gave herself the L-1 and therefore would have given any scumbuddy the opportunity to hammer without guilt.

[pablito]

I could be up for a Huck lynch as well, but right now I don't feel the need to hammer.

When I read through Huck's posts, the person that pinged the most was Patrick. Huck was initially talking a lot about Patrick being scum upon entering, but then later gets really stuck on e_k and then doesn't fully address why he dropped Patrick. Considering that Huck didn't go after DGB at first, I could see this interaction as a real attempt to bus that just fell off for no reason. So I would say vig Patrick.

If Huck isn't actually scum, then just vig someone useless. Based on interactions with DGB, I think CTD and Huck were the best connections to be scum partners, but I do think that if Huck isn't scum, I'm not sure CTD is the way to go. But could be worth a try. Patrick could be a worthwhile vig anyway because he could be hiding his relations with others really well. Elias could be another option too. He's failed to give significant analysis today. I feel less certain on his scuminess at this time, but it might feel better for a lot of people if he's gone.

If Lowell discloses, scum could target someone else if they were both going to aim at who Lowell says.

[pablito]

I am fine with the massclaim and don't mind the method that's being presented. I don't care when I claim, but I'll just follow what's going on. Don't want to bogart the order.

Now that I've checked in, looks like elias is still the only one MIA?

[pablito]

I am a priest and therefore unable to cast a hammering vote. However, since I've never actually been on a lynch yet, hasn't made the difference.

At first I was suspicious of the supersaint possibility because I didn't think there would be two lynch-based roles. But then I realized that a priest is protected against a supersaint and then I had trouble figuring it out. But then the claim never came out so I had to take it at a different value. But that all took all of a few seconds, because it was only a threat of possibility.

Also this is why I said I wouldn't hammer yesterday.

I want Patrick to go next.

[pablito]

Sorry forgot to tell mine. Rosso Carne. Cannot doing anything else - vanilla with a lynch restriction. Lynch does not go through if I place a hammering vote.

[pablito]

So now that I answered, Patrick, you're next to claim.

[pablito]

My vote is ignored. Therefore, I assume day continues as it would be as if I never had voted at all.

[pablito]

I would vote Patrick right now, but I'm only at two votes, and want to be sure that I'm ready to hammer myself when you so desire.

I don't care what's going on with the usernames and Rosso. I got the role name, and that's what it is. I feel that based on interactions with DGB, it should be clear that Patrick is scummier and that my intentions should look more genuine when dealing with DGB.

I'll try to make a case on Patrick later, but I got a big deadline on Thursday and cannot write a lengthy post. I'll try to write it later after I self hammer.

I was about to comment on Adel being newer and therefore I don't know why it would matter when someone joined, but CTD said something similar upon my skim.

Also, my thought is that Seol is a closer claim to mith, who was a goon. Seol seems to have the whole revered position much like mith does.

I also see Tracker + one shot vig + gunsmith as being too powerful (especially if only two mafia), but I see priest + gunsmith + one shot vig as making more sense as I'm not even a "power role" more of a mafia benefit with me around. I'm not 100% on the gunsmith claim, but in terms of balance, I'm more inclined to believe bluesoul than Patrick. I would not see them as being scum partners (if there's three mafia) just because the town would be underpowered. I see tracker and gunsmith as both being investigative characters and thus I do not see reasons why both would be in the game. I know Patrick is lying and hope that you guys see the truth as well. Sheeesh, (post-edit) I should've read CTD's post before writing the above paragraph, he says the same. I'm sorry. I just saw the whole fake claim and had to post right away.

But the quickest way to get to that is if someone puts the third vote on me (I think it's only Patrick and elias voting me at the moment, but can't be arsed to go back), and then I self-hammer. I just ask, that once I self-hammer, someone please unvote me right away so that scum cannot just add the fifth vote and truly lynch me without anyone thinking any the lesser (although that'd be too obvious). Any of my votes that would be a hammer are actually ignored. I can still be lynched if someone double hammers me. And I don't think we can let me die after the self-hammer without further discussion.

It's too bad Lowell is gone too, because I would've been prime to vig. If I had claimed earlier, mafia wouldn't kill me because they get advantage with me around, but it'd be a waste to lynch me. I agree with bluesoul that I'm a liability and shouldn't be around in endgame, but please don't mislynch by taking me out.

[pablito]

I'm about to go off to class and will likely be unavailable for the rest of the night, but I'm a bit pissed that you guys would think that even if I prove my role (of which it is confirmable), that you would still fathom lynching me rather than taking out proven scum Patrick. Imagine lynching me as town, Patrick giving you tomorrow a result of his "tracking" and then muddling up any logic that the town has built up. Take out Patrick now, and we can focus ourselves further on finding his partner and how he's acting now. I can guarantee that his suicide play is purposely hiding his tracks now so we can't find a mafia partner. There is no other logic on it all.

Try putting yourself in my shoes and see why I know he's bluffing. It just sucks that I can't be around more to defend myself. I didn't even get a chance to read his post against me but I know there were a few words that will probably piss me off when I do get a chance to read it.

Gah, why'd he choose me of all people, really? Sucks that I had to claim before him.

There is no reason why I would fake claim this role. And furthermore, I would not think that a mafia priest (as some have suggested) would even make sense in this layout.

I'm not trying to cut off discussion. I know that the lynch won't go through and I want to confirm myself as soon as I can.

Right now bluesoul and Xyl are confusing me. And if it weren't for bluesoul's better claim, I'd be thinking worse of him. Xyl seems to have switched everything around too. He's being a bit too cautious for my tastes.

[pablito]

I've only skimmed and promise to get a more substantial post about 24 hrs from now when I'll be back on a computer.

This is empty rhetoric. You can easily have the ability you're claiming to have as scum. Why would it make you town suddenly? How would I be "proven scum"? I don't see any argument here, you're just asserting that you'd be confirmed town. Also, what are you talking about when you say I'd be "muddling up any logic the town has built up tomorrow"? In the impossible event that you're lynched as town, I'd be lynched tomorrow no questions asked.

I've also heard of mafia trackers being in games before (or at least being brought up as a possibility), and a mafia gunsmith with a vig and SK dead isn't really much of a stretch as a "goon". Although at the moment, I believe that bluesoul is legit. I don't see much wrong with what he's said today or yesterday or the previous day independent of his claim. Although at the moment, I'm more apt to believe that scum fake-claiming are just plain fake-claiming - especially if one "investigative" role was already outed and one scum was already going to claim an investigative role and wants to place the spotlight on someone else, but couldn't really claim cop. I just don't see why there's two investigative roles - in which both target possible suspects. I'd more likely suspect a nightwatchman - someone who gives a night choice of who to watch to see if anyone visits. But even that can be too powerful. But a game in which there's two that can easily spread around the investigation and later claim results - just seems too powerful unless mafia have a GF and/or some other mafia power role.

I believe you're proven scum, Patrick, because I can't fathom why'd you make up your choices, unless there's some type of mafia framer role that mucks up a tracker Patrick (and even Bluesoul's). And that would totally suck if mafia had the ability to toy with our results - because that makes it a whole nother game.

While I could be a liability in endgame, if mafia don't take me out and you guys don't foolishly lynch me, I promise announce my vote and not do so without permission from all of the people are confirmed innocent at that point (and if none can be confirmed, then people I announce as being trustworthy). That way, even in a three or four way endgame, I wouldn't hastily put my vote on before the other town-aligned player/s knew who they will vote for. I've already been very careful with my vote so far, I don't see why I can't coordinate my vote in a lynch and lose situation.

P.S. I'm ready if others are.

[pablito]

vote: pablito

Let's keep discussing. I'll get to addressing stuff when I get back later tonight.

[pablito]

unvote

[pablito]

I think my vote was ignored anyway. But just for good measure.

[pablito]

For that latest jerk move in that last post - the revote,

vote: patrick

. I'll be back later - when I'm in better mind and not so angry at Patrick that I go overboard in my discussion of him.

[pablito]

I'd appreciate an unvote from at least one person please, too. Although I trust the guys currently not voting.

[pablito]

MBL said it, elias was way too much of a target to risk it. The only one with even a mention on me at that time was Patrick. The turning point of the game was when Patrick targetted me and claimed after me. If those two events didn't occur, we may have pulled off an endgame win with Elias and Xyl lynching CTD.

MBL was on elias, therefore we killed him. Lowell was claimed and proven, but I thought of leaving him alive because he wasn't really on us. No one else seemed better, because both bluesoul and e_k (people I considered that town thought was pro-town) were supporting our cause more than Lowell was. Elias thought he was dead because of Lowell's next choice though and we didn't really plan that night at all.

I also didn't know that I didn't have a gun (ie: GF) Had I known, I may not have ever ventured for the kill and just sacrificed elias. I think mafia was just as clueless as town really.

Replacing PJ sucked - he didn't play horribly, but he aimed for people I wouldn't have.

[pablito]

* pablito also didn't give off much in the way of connections--sadly he was forced to vote for one of his scumpartners (or himself, lol) for 98% of this game.

I chose to do so.

Lynching Huck was a coup for us. I sure wanted him dead.

I want to hear from DGB's perspective. We never talked together.

I came up with my claim name during N1 and both of us agreed that it would work. We did the only communication during N1 because during N2 there was pretty much none.

I am saddened that the game came down to investigations. I'm more of a vanilla game player though. I'm not so sure that based on interactions between scum, any of us would've been found. In fact, mafia interactions were counterintuitive. Mafia were found only as scummy individuals, not as a team.

Replacements made the game better, but in an invitation, there should not have been a need for that many. I enjoyed playing the game (specifically D1) because I got to play again with some of my favorite players, but I had many issues with certain aspects of the game that make me feel good that I don't play anymore. Very doubtful I'll ever play a game again here, but I don't regret playing this one.