Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[chamber]

sorry for the late start. I don't regularly check these boards anymore and the long delay in the start up had me forget about it till shea reminded me. Expect a normal posting frequency from here on.

vote: bluesoul

[chamber]

unvote: bluesoul vote: patrick

[chamber]

Fail.

Your interest in finding scum doesn't feel genuine to me. Your explaining your thought process to much.

[chamber]

Your interest in finding scum doesn't feel genuine to me. Your explaining your thought process to much.

No more than usual. What do you think of PJ?

I assume the implication of this question is that pj is also explaining himself, but its not the act of explaining but the manner in which you did that I found scummy. You over emphasize the way you got to your conclusions instead of the conclusions themselves.

[chamber]

I'm not intentionally misconstruing your words. There's a 30% chance that you're scum, and a 20% chance that you're scum telling the truth about your intentions there, and a 10% chance that you're scum who I caught in a slip-up and now you're lying about it to cover your ass.

So no, I'm not "intentionally misconstruing". I'm covering all the possibilities from my perspective.

If you intend to use math at least support it, pulling numbers out of your ass that you have no way of supporting isn't cool.

[chamber]

IH, you igmeoy'ed me and FOSed bluesoul and that's about it. You found #28 and #29 weird, but totally missed my point in 29. The point was: "If bluesoul thinks I am scum, he would not think there are three MORE scum who have been alerted--it would only be two." (There is a differing opinion about what bluesoul intended, and there's a 90% chance he meant something other than what I interpreted, but you should still understand MY post in order to better assess the situation.)

I'm tempted to put him at five but not until we've had more discussion to help us nail his buddies.

Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

Honestly, bluesoul's "concern" there is a little weird, which slightly lowers the chance he's being sincere about who the "three players" he was worried about are. I do find it odd that he'd be worried about all three of {IH, chamber, elias}--especially if he really thinks MBL is scum.

=========================================

There is weak hay being made about my "30%" remark:

I'm not intentionally misconstruing your words. There's a 30% chance that you're scum, and a 20% chance that you're scum telling the truth about your intentions there, and a 10% chance that you're scum who I caught in a slip-up and now you're lying about it to cover your ass.

I am dealing with generalities here. Obviously I can't peg the exact likelihood that someone is making an honest mistake or lying. I am estimating, which is something I do all the time to try and figure out how aggressively to attack something. There's no sense in pushing something repeatedly if there's only a 5% chance it's a reality. I did the rough math, figured there's a 10% chance bluesoul is lying scum on this topic, and decided it wasn't worth pressing beyond what we've already covered.

If you intend to use math at least support it, pulling numbers out of your ass that you have no way of supporting isn't cool.

Speaking of ignoring, explain your "30% scum" line from post 101.

A 30% chance I'm scum, eh? So you know there's a 30/70 ratio? How would you know that if you were not part of the informed minority? Either explain yourself, right now, or stand similarly exposed as scum.

If there are 3 scum, that's 27% of you. 4 scum = 37% of you. I don't really see any other number of scum as likely in an invitational, which will likely be a pretty standard/bland setup. Do you really think my assumption is most likely explained by inside information on the setup, bluesoul? Or are you just making hay? I think we're past the point where statements like Sarc's and DGB's early "we've caught scum" are amusing.

Bluesouls problem may have been with the 30%, but thats easily explained. My problem was with the 1/3 2/3 division you gave him for being scum that slipped up vs scum that you misinterpreted. Not only do your numbers not increase the chance hes scum. (and thus make the attack effectively random) not only do these numbers suggest that he has a significantly higher chance of you having misinterpreted him then anything else, but they are also completely pulled out of nowhere. Please try to explain to me your estimation process. By putting things down as numbers it looks like you are trying to make something appear to be more concrete then it is, as scum or over zealous town.

unvote

[chamber]

mbl, can you please state your case against bs for me? It would seem to me that if your interpretation was only yielding a 10% scum result you'd have dropped your vote. You having not done so certainly made me believe you were using those numbers to push for a bluesoul lynch, which is a clear contradiction and was my main problem with them (the fact that you used %'s at all aside). I am left to believe that those numbers where to be taken in a hypothetical vacuum of "if he had only done such and such", which in its self seems unbelievable.

[chamber]

Something I've found slightly strange.

Post 133

Right now I see MBL as more likely town that believes he's found scum, than scum trying to run a player up; I don't think scum would push so hard so early over such a small point of contention, however his reputation proceeds him so I'm not discounting the possibility altogether. I don't like his use of numbers on me when they could be applied to anyone else playing, though they somehow are used to make me look scummier. Not cool.

post 144, the next day (or same can't remember)

I'm actually in the process of reevaluating. I'm thinking his gyrations almost look a little townish to me, which offsets some of the scummy looking things. My leading candidates are e_k, PJ, DGB, IH. There's actually a specific post that makes that first trio look unlikely, raising the possibility that elias is involved somehow. Ether and possibly Patrick are looking slightly decent. And before anyone else gives me shit for finding people "slightly decent", zip it already. I don't trust anyone in this game--this is for the sake of discussion.

I think you're right.

Vote bluesoul

[chamber]

Care to explain what you believe is strange and why that brand of strangeness = scummy? And why you vote bluesoul over MBL if they are both strange?

The amount of explanation I've been giving this game is already over the top, I don't feel like giving any more. In short figure it out for yourself, and/or vote me. Either way its up to you.

[chamber]

What? What else am I supposed to say? Not gonna defend myself when I don't know what I'm supposed to be defending, and the voter is too lazy to provide an explanation. If you see what he's getting at, and why I appear more scummy than you out of the two quotes, please let me know. Chamber would probably appreciate it too.

I actually very much dislike people talking for me, and my lack of explanation has nothing to do with being lazy. Cases are pro scum damnit.

[chamber]

What? What else am I supposed to say? Not gonna defend myself when I don't know what I'm supposed to be defending, and the voter is too lazy to provide an explanation. If you see what he's getting at, and why I appear more scummy than you out of the two quotes, please let me know. Chamber would probably appreciate it too.

I actually very much dislike people talking for me, and my lack of explanation has nothing to do with being lazy. Cases are pro scum damnit.

Yeah, I realize that, it's why I was hoping it would irritate you enough to elaborate. Same with disregarding your vote. But if all you're going to say is cases are pro scum then of course I'm not going to take it as seriously as a vote with reasoning behind it.

I think mbl's the only one who had a problem with your disregard statement.oh and so that no one wracks there brain over something impossible, I revoted bluesoul because i have other reasons I think him not town, the same reasons that had me put my first vote on him. This was just something that made me want to revisit the idea.

[chamber]

Right. MBL and I contrived and planned a random argument about percentages that was eventually refuted by the other party...when? At night? There hasn't been a night.

How do you know whether or not the scum were allowed to talk before the game started?

OGML, please explain what it is that you expected to me to comment on and why not commenting on it makes me scum.

Anyway, DGB is scum.

Unvote, Vote: DrippingGoofball

You massively misrepresented bluesouls post there. MASSIVELY.

[chamber]

I too read that question as being rhetorical.

[chamber]

@sarcastro: I realize you aren't voting bluesoul at the moment so I feel a bit like I'm wasting effort here ( even more so since I am voting him) but I feel he was more careless in both those endeavors then scummy. In the first one he'd have to be careless, as town or scum so no need to defend that. But the second seems more like a post that had no thought put into it then anything else. If one reasoned threw it they would easily come to your conclusion. It would be wholly stupid to post it as scum, and once again we come to him having been careless be him scum or town.

I really can't see you having asked that question in a non rhetorical sense. I just can't. Which leads me to believe you intentionally made him look bad. But then I think him scum as well so what does that make you? If when he eventually dies hes town I'm certainly coming back to you because to me it seems like your pushing his wagon while staying off of it yourself, a classic scum ploy. Though then im torn because earlier in the game you did a lot of speaking for him. Its possible you just found the remarks directed at him stupid. Ive defended in such cases before. But as scum why defend them then? The only reason to would be if you're scum with bluesoul. If that were the case I guess this could instead be a distancing tactic. bickering with bluesoul while not putting any weight behind it. Sigh.

So to recap since I need to make sense of this for myself. If you are both town I don't see you having made the rhetorical mark as you did, and more importantly when you saw it attract attention playing it off as having been a serious question is even more telling to me. If you are town and hes is scum then why make the rhetorical mark like you did. I really dislike that remark. if your scum and hes town, why help him earlier n the game? Making yourself look good in a situation where he could easily have answer him self is always a plus I guess. and if your both scum I've already explained a possible reason as to your actions. Interestingly enough this would seem to suggest that your scum regardless of bluesouls alignment in my opinion. But its all dependent on that remark, that seems so unnatural to me as town. I need more time to think.


^reason why I shouldn't do more then vote in thread^

[chamber]

DGB, what are your thoughts on Bluesoul, and MBL's interactions with him?

The scumbags no longer can claim Mason, that's for sure. That whole bit about percentages was a total red herring argument. There is no way this argument was about an actual scumtell, it seemed very contrived and planned. Bus'ing is definitely a possibility here.

From my memory of this game, there's been quite a few people drawing connections between players (or maybe it's just a few players drawing quite a lot of connections). This post by DGB trying to say that she sees bussing is just an avenue for me to comment on the "connections" phenomenon in this game.

Normally, I really don't like to try to connect people on D1. Usually not even until we have lynched scum. Maybe I'm playing on a lower level than the rest of you, but I feel like it just confuses things. I feel that it is a great scum tactic to set yourself up connected to a townie, or connect your buddy to a townie. So when you allow that sort of rampant BS speculation, you open the door for a lot of scum manipulation.

But maybe I'm not thinking about things in a complex enough way. Does speculating on scum buddies or groups on D1, actually help any of you? Am I being too simplistic?

And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.

I generally consider the possibility of scum pairs at all points in the game, but at no point should they be perceived as concrete, and I feel the individual play of each player should be judged over the connects drawn between players in non super obvious instances. BUT they should still be considered. Also if this was directly aimed at me drawing connections between bluesoul and sarc, I'd like to point out I found each scummy on there own accord and also a reasonable explanation for them potentially being scum pairs, nothing more. My last post may have made it felt like more but I was basically just typing what it thought as I thought it until i reached a conclusion at the end (that sarcs comment bothered me a lot and that thinking threw all of it was pointless because all i did was show that i thought him to be scum no matter what bluesoul was.) If anything Id think my post supported your point more then anything. And now I feel like I'm being too defensive by explaining all this when my name wasn't specifically stated. oh well.

[chamber]

I actually wasn't thinking of you Chamber, but I'm glad to get any sort of explanation from you

I'm always more then willing to explain my own actions as long as it has nothing to do with where my vote is.

[chamber]

I actually wasn't thinking of you Chamber, but I'm glad to get any sort of explanation from you

Sorry for the double post, but if it wasn't me who pushed you to speak then who exactly tipped the scales?

[chamber]

@chamber, just dipping into your thought process here, I don't have any problem seeing Sarcscum speaking for bluesoultown early in the game. Not that it sticks out to me as scummy, but it's quite plausible. Scum trying to make friends in the town is very common.

It's kind of interesting how much you wrote there. For someone who found it scummy how I was explaining my thought processes, you're doing it far more than is usual for you. I like the increased participation and hope it continues, but I'm curious as to why you're doing it, since I know you generally like to keep thoughts to yourself.

Honestly? the fact that i disliked the question was in the open, so I may as well talk about it. By the end of that post I probably should have deleted it all and replaced it with "I really dislike that vote" cause thats basically what my 3 paragraphs summed up. But I wanted to see how some people reacted to me posting more then usual, and at least it would make people maybe realize I don't just post shit without thinking (when I do you get posts like the one I made instead of posts like "i really dislike that post").

As for attacking you for it earlier, I never articulated myself properly on that manner. It wasn't that you explained how you got to the conclusion you got to. It was that.. you made it seem like you put a lot of effort getting to the conclusion you got to, and that seems anti town to me.

I'm always more then willing to explain my own actions as long as it has nothing to do with where my vote is.

This is news to me. If this is true, what made you decide to explain why you voted me earlier in the game? I didn't even ask you to as such.

My title is what it is for a reason. Or if its that you never knew I was willing to explain other things then.. I don't know maybe I got speed lynched on day 1 in all the games we played together in (it happened a lot around the time you joined). As for giving explanation as to why I voted you: my main concern with cases is late game more then early game. And I didn't want to get speed lynched this game. So I decided to bend my own rules to make myself look better in the towns eye.

[chamber]

Just trying to clarify some mis-communications.

chamber draws fine distinctions between Patrick and PJ. I don't like that he thinks I "attempted to make something appear more concrete than it is" but didn't vote me for that.. because deception = scumminess. But he unvoted at the time, almost implying that he found bluesoul unattackable after calling me out, but didn't want to vote me for some reason. He does allow that I might be overzealous town. If that's a genuine explanation for his failure to vote me (knowing also that I had a small wagon he didn't want to be on) that is a modestly protown act.

At this point I was thinking it unlikely that you were scum together and was undecided as to which of you i should pursue so i unvoted in the mean time.

The next day, he votes bluesoul, commenting that bluesoul and I finding each other townish seems odd. Would both town and scum behave as chamber does here? Not sure.. bluesoul was the first one to find the other (MBL) townish, MBL followed by finding bluesoul townish, and chamber sees the initial act as scummier than MBL's reevaluation of bluesoul.

As I tried to explain earlier (though apparently failed) I equally disliked the act from both of you, but at this point I had decided bluesoul was the more scummy of you two, that comment aside, so I went after him.

Next, chamber accuses Sarc of "MASSIVELY" misrepresenting bluesoul. Doesn't vote Sarc, leaves his vote on bluesoul. Acknowledges that he's voting bluesoul but sees a few specific bluesoul actions Sarc saw as scummy.. as "careless" and townish.

I never meant to imply "townish" here. just that what he had done would be careless as both scum and town and thus attacking him for it seemed foolhardy.

Speculation on why Sarc is acting like this re: bluesoul.. is Sarc scum bs town, or both scum? Doesn't seem to allow for both town.

At the end of it all my conclusion was that I found sarc to be scummy regardless of bluesouls alignment, I did briefly discuss them both being town but sarc seemed so damn scummy at that moment, or rather his question and the way he reacted to it being attacked did. I should take time to point out this post was intended as an investigation in to sarc, as such i was ignoring stuff from bluesoul. He also seems extremely scummy and my most likely result with that in mind would have been both as scum (for independent reasons). Sarcs response since then has confused me more though and I'm still trying to figure out if i can see anyone having said that as a non rhetorical question.

If you are both town I don't see you having made the rhetorical mark as you did, and more importantly when you saw it attract attention playing it off as having been a serious question is even more telling to me... Interestingly enough this would seem to suggest that your scum regardless of bluesouls alignment in my opinion. But its all dependent on that remark, that seems so unnatural to me as town. I need more time to think.

followed by:

^reason why I shouldn't do more then vote in thread^

VERY nice touch if chamber is scum. Doubting he is at this point, or else he's exquisitely ballsy scum.

I don't even know why that would be ballsy so I guess you should consider exquisitely stupid scum as another option.

[chamber]

I don't' really find anything dgb has done to be scummy. Nonsensical perhaps, but not scummy.

[chamber]

this games activity feels low to me. IH needs to post more (unless hes got a short term reason I missed) and I'm pretty sure times proven elias needs to be replaced.

[chamber]

assuming mbl was going to make a case like that on everyone I would have liked for him to have finished before questioning him on them as a whole. Now if he is scum hes much more likely to give less away in the remaining reviews. I can understand why you asked what you asked now though, the game felt like it was slowing down a lot (to me anyway) and waiting on mbl to finish to kick start the game again would have been a bad call. Now that the issues out in the open though I really don't like the cases mbl has been making. I have to go back and pick out certain things. The lack of context reading could be the problem but to me it seems to have been a huge one, as if my memories serves me hes taken things out of context in them on numerable occasions. Not only context of the thread but context of the post they were happening in. This is like the MAIN I hate pbpa's reason that I have. The problem for me is figuring out if he was being careless or deceitful and without anymore to go on I don't know if I'll be able to make that distinction.

[chamber]

unvote vote:elvis_knits

[chamber]

Who has considered the possibility that I have a power role?

This post is scummy. One of the only scummy posts Ive seen you make but scummy non the less. Its basically a scare tactic to stop others from attacking you without actually saying anything.

[chamber]

Id be happy with dgb claiming after that post of hers.

[chamber]

I don't actually think lynching dgb is the right play here. I just don't see what harm her role being out in the open would do after shes heavily suggested shes power already. It could certainly help get others off her back though. In short, suck it up and claim.

[chamber]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

We are more waiting on a dgb claim then anything else i think. Are you suggesting we lynch her with out letting her claim?

[chamber]

If your vote is on someone and you haven't built a convincing case, you're suspect.

You'll find a few such on my present wagon.

I hope you guys have a more productive day tomorrow.

The single source of our unproductiveness is you being nihilistic. If you claim there is little chance you will die, and I can't think of a reasonable role that is better of dead then in the open. Holding out to the last minute to claim is one thing but not claiming at all is being nothing more then stupid.

[chamber]

MBL's guesses:

.5 of {Ether-town
chamber-town
bluesoul-town
IH-town
Elias-town
OGML-town } = scum

1.5 of {Patrick, DGB, Sarc, PJ} = scum

e_k-scum

I need to look into individual relationships carefully. e_k+PJ is not likely, but PJ still feels a little scummy. e_k+Patrick+DGB or e_k+Sarc+DGB or e_k+Patrick+Sarc wouldn't shock me.

I'll be somewhat surprised if Ether or chamber is scum. I'll be minimally surprised if bluesoul or OGML is scum. I'm wondering if Elias and IH would be posting more (feeling guilty about letting down their scumpartners) if they're scum. It's entirely possible that they're jerkwad lazy irresponsible lurking scum. I thought IH was cooler than that, but then again he should be cooler as town as well.

I realize I have multiple theories on some players (Elias and PJ, for example). Maybe they'll spur someone who knows these players better to comment on which theory seems to fit better.

Since dgb still isn't here I'm gonna ask 'why?'. You've explained some but many are ?s for me.

[chamber]

A few examples aside I think the only thing gdb is really guilty of is over exaggerating profusely.

The most subtle example of this perhaps is her inconsistencies in attacking. If she really does feel everyone looks somewhat townish (which is exaggerated in itself I'm sure) She would still feel the need to vote for someone yet everyone would be close on her scumdar, this explains why she would be jumping around as often as she is, on top of that once she found someone to be the most scummy, she would attack them and again exaggerate leaving the impression of her finding them far more scummy then she actually does.

[chamber]

If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later.

I've never been in a game with a supersaint, but apparently:

However, when a majority of votes is reached on you, the last person to vote for you, or the commonly called person who places the "Hammer vote", or the one who votes to make a majority, will also die along with you.

Since scum are the only people who would know whether or not the claim is true, they'd be the only people to know they should avoid hammering her. So once a supersaint claims, they're going to get nightkilled before scum would ever be forced to hammer them to end a day.

So why would you encourage DGB to claim supersaint, Ether?

Why would scum know if there is a supersaint in the game?

They would know shes town (again presuming no sk) and thus that shes likely telling the truth.

[chamber]

DGB: 5 (Pabs, Bluesoul, sarc, ether, Patrick)
Elvis_Knits 2 (chamber, MBL)
sarc: 1 (OGML)
Patrick: 1 (e_k)
MBL: 1 (DGB)

not voting: 2 (Elias, IH)

We would still need one more potential DGB-voter to do anything, e_k. At that point, I'm not sure if we want to do dice or just use you since you've volunteered; logic says use the dice but common sense says to use the volunteer. I think I want another opinion on this.

Tell me about your IRC experience, Bluesoul. Wouldn't an explicit supersaint claim be even worse for scum in those smaller chat games than in a 12-player mini?

Incidentally, what's your opinion of Elvis?

I would see an explicit SS claim to actually be worse for the town than the scum, as no scumbag without a great deal of intestinal fortitude would even think about hammering once it's out in the open. Consequentially, the chances of losing two townies goes up and the chance of trading 1 for 1 goes down; believe it or not scum were much more apt to hammer than town and the SS becomes more powerful (and dangerous (swingy)) as the game progresses. That said, #mafia games were normally 7 to 10 players and were much more focused on making "percentage plays" than gut feelings. I feel that my proposal of using dice has merit as it removes a variable: Rhetoric by players, whether scum or town, to push for a certain player to be the hammer.

Actually, I'd like chamber's opinion on this along with 383. He's got as much or more experience with the Super-Saint as I do and he may have a solution to offer as well.

As for Elvis, last night I managed a full re-read of the game and elvis is now creeping up my scumdar a bit. A lot of that's been due to more recent posts as opposed to earlier in the day. Somewhere between an IGMEOY and a FOS, but not enough to convince me she's lynch worthy at the moment.

tbh I've always liked a claimed ss as opposed to one that refuses to claim anything or fakes a claim. scum may hammer higher then 25-30 percent of the time but in my experience in cases where the defendant refuses to claim or they have a weak to bad claim town still hammer more often say 60-40 (these numbers are pulled out of my ass). So by not claiming you are still likely killing a townie, At least by using it as a potential second lynch you net 2 scummy looking people down. And should the second ever refuse to hammer you just kill them instead. Of course in this case we have a possible deadline and my top candidate is already willing to hammer so, if we do lynch dgb, Im fine with elvis doing it.

[chamber]

I still dont think dgb is a good lynch but i think its become clear enough that the rest of the town isnt getting away from it so

Unvote elvis Vote dgb

[chamber]

unvote

[chamber]

To the best of my understanding myself ether and patrick are also still not done. I was especially looking forward to my own review.

[chamber]

I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.

Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)

What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?

You are being underhanded here. She make it clear in the first post that her pressure on dgb was there because she wasn't being productive. Its clear then that it was dgbs analysis that convinced ether to vote elvis what I imagine her post meant however was that dgb didn't make ether suspect elvis more then dgb but dgb less then elivis.

[chamber]

OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!

huh?

[chamber]

vote elvis

[chamber]

I have no idea what that last sentence means, that aside I was voting elvis before I moved to dgb for the hammer (becuase she was inactive) after she got active and i unvoted her a bunch of people voted elvis so I didn't want to put my vote back yet cause i felt she had enough pressure, but then the game stalled and I wanted to get it moving again.

[chamber]

I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).

I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?

If it makes you feel any better patrick misrepresenting your one post was clear to at least me. Now how about a claim?

[chamber]

you arent dgb, i trust your sanity.

[chamber]

huh?

[chamber]

I do not plan on claiming

then you need to die.

[chamber]

I do not plan on claiming

then you need to die.

I don't think a claim should really change anything. Either you think I'm scummy or you don't.

I do think you scummy but I also admit that i can be wrong, and a way of testing that is your claim.

[chamber]

chamber: He is being far more talkative than I've seen. I really do not like his wanting DBG to claim without being lynched. Particularly since he effectively told elvis to claim or die. Find him scummy.

I never wanted dgb to die really, I had my vote on her a bit for the sake of the game. I wanted her to claim cause of that one line she said, and would still be happy if she did but meh. As a general policy I think its a good idea to lynch people who refuse to claim, dgb is dgb, but by letting Elvis get away with it too we are saying that no one needs to claim this game, and thats NOT a message I'm willing to send.

As far as my talkativeness goes, I was always to the point as both scum and town in the past and in truth I still think it would be beneficial if everyone was, but this is one game and in all honesty its unlikely that I will play another game on here in the near future so I threw metagaming out the window. Given the fact that everyone else is being verbose its beneficial to be verbose as well, I just feel its more of a bonus as scum to be verbose then it is as town.

[chamber]

chamber: He is being far more talkative than I've seen. I really do not like his wanting DBG to claim without being lynched. Particularly since he effectively told elvis to claim or die. Find him scummy.

I never wanted dgb to die really, I had my vote on her a bit for the sake of the game. I wanted her to claim cause of that one line she said, and would still be happy if she did but meh. As a general policy I think its a good idea to lynch people who refuse to claim, dgb is dgb, but by letting Elvis get away with it too we are saying that no one needs to claim this game, and thats NOT a message I'm willing to send.

I don't think it's fair to have a double standard for me and dgb. She doesn't have to claim, but I do? If you're going to kill one of us for not claiming, I think it should be her because she was first. And I think it's unfair to excuse her scummy play as "just being dgb." She is not always town just because she is "just being dgb."

Her not claiming is the only "just being dgb" thing I've used. All around I wouldn't find her play scummy if it were coming from you.

[chamber]

So why is not claiming a "just being dgb" thing? Why is she excused and I am not?

I've seen her do it as town. Not the case for you.

[chamber]

So why is not claiming a "just being dgb" thing? Why is she excused and I am not?

I've seen her do it as town. Not the case for you.

I don't remember ever playing with you before so how are you drawing a conclusion about what I would do or not do as town?

If I haven't played any forum games with you (which I think I have but we are talking almost three years ago so my memory could be foggy) I have at least read games you've been in, and played in scum chat with you. I don't ever remember anything unrational like not claiming claiming from you.

[chamber]

@chamber: Have you seen DBG refuse to claim as scum?

That I remember? No. but thats hardly definitive. However since no where did I say her refusal to claim made me think she was more likely to be town I ail to see how thats relevant. I think shes town cause of her play overall. I was more stating her refusal to claim as a non tell.

[chamber]

I dislike how he went and did a reread of dbg to analyze her, but just used dgbs analysis(which I think was Bologna anyway) to look into Elvis. That other post on dgb was also clearly done in an attacking mind set not and inquisitive one. Over all its clear he decided who he was voting before doing either post and was just supporting it in thread, which I don't particularly like.

[chamber]

SO you admit that post was a defense of elvis? If you aren't caught up why are you readily willing to attack and defend others?

[chamber]

I guess you could call it a defense, though it wasnt intended as one. I was just evaluating the case on her, and I didnt find it very convincing.

The problem here being that evaluating a case made on someone is different from evaluating that person.

[chamber]

I find CDB much scummier ATM. He replaced in and did a reread, finding DGB scummiest, and not really seeing a case on me, but when he saw that others were against me, he changed his tune. He even uses DGB's analysis (who he says he thought was scummy) as a map to see if I was scummy. It makes NO sense to use a scummy player's analysis to base your next suspicions on.

That's exactly what Elias did.

How come it's scummy when CDB does it, but not Elias?

Elias didn't do the same thing. Elias read your case on me to find dirt on you; CDB read your case on me to find dirt on me.

I agree that's what elias did but its clearly not what he represented himself as intending to do. That's by far my biggest problem with him atm.

[chamber]

Unvote vote Elias

cause hes annoying me.

[chamber]

I'm just being honest. Reading your posts is extremely annoying given your current attitude. At this point, quite frankly, I don't care who we lynch anyway I just want the damn day to end.

[chamber]

Let's make the race interesting. I'm willing to move my vote to elvis to see how the votes will move.

unvote, vote: elvis

Now, they're 4:4.

Either one needs 3 to be lynched.

GO GO GO

As much as I wish i had 2 votes I don't so actually you made it 4-3 and with hacks vote its 4-4

[chamber]

Im here and have been the whole time but im bored with this day and don't really care who we lynch at this point. We need some deaths to sort things out

[chamber]

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

Totally meta. I remember that newbie game that CTD mentioned. I was doctor and had to defend my actions heavily. CTD was pretty much the last person to be convinced by me. He came into the game pretty nonchalantly and didn't rock the waves. He was town. Then again he came in mid D3 where we were at a very crucial point. We are not here. Also, whenever I kick myself, CTD would heal.

Leading the town as scum is a big possibility, but to do so within the first few posts, it's tough to do I would imagine. I don't think CTD has rusted off the mafia joints quickly enough to do such a gutsy move.

While I think e_k is genuine and is likely town, I'm starting to not really follow any of her arguments. Mostly because we're not going after similar suspects.

I'm wondering when DGB is going to come in and shift her vote or something else completely predictable.

He didn't have to, but just wanted to note that chamber did not switch his vote with his last post.

Who was I supposed to switch it to? I guess elias did shut up which is good. I dont feel like lynching ek anymore though so Im on the biggest wagon Im willing to go threw with, I think

[chamber]

I'm less talkative cause this days gone on for far too long. Everything that can be said has been imo and we need to move on.

[chamber]

forgot about this game for a couple days, oops.

to answer mbls question from several pages ago. The days dragged on so much that I now feel uncertain about everyone . I feel better about some of the lurkers but that's cause they haven't been posting and had not as many chances to look bad. With some deaths things that now look potentially incriminating may not look so bad, or vice versa and with that plus the length of this day i think we can get some serious work done, but given what we have I think everyone looks bad under different potential circumstances. If I feel particularly ambitious this long weekend I may try and spill out those circumstances for each player. We will see.

[chamber]

Extremely disappointed in Xyl, but not convinced that his actions mean anything at the moment.

They mean something.

The clear intention of his statement here was with regards to weather it meant you were scum.

Also, I didn't know a Xyl existed until he arrived in this game.

And yet, someone nominated me...

Many people on IRC would know who you were to nominate you. The number of people who play only on ms who know you is likely much smaller.

Although I agree with your sentiment that fast games are better, the fact of the matter is that this one wont be one even if its fast from this point on. Scum have had time to settle in their roles and imo the main bonus' of a fast game are gone, at least as far as this day goes. And although I agree we should just lynch someone at this point, I also think that lynch should be an informed one. Not reading the game isn't cool.

[chamber]

I'm more willing to lynch any of the following:

Elias_the_thief
Patrick
CrashTextDummy
HackerHuck
Xylthixlm

then anyone else, but if need be will likely still hammer others near deadline.

[chamber]

I'm more willing to lynch any of the following:

Elias_the_thief
Patrick
CrashTextDummy
HackerHuck
Xylthixlm

then anyone else, but if need be will likely still hammer others near deadline.

You haven't so much as mentioned DGB in two months and that was when you

were

voting her, so what's changed?

When i was voting dgb it was so she would claim not to lynch her. Id still like her to claim but have given up trying to get her to.

[chamber]

You think I'm joking? bluesoul, back me up here.

Also, don't ignore the first part of my post.

You ARE lying as far as I remember at least.

[chamber]

MBL, please stop derailing wagons when people fart out soft claims.

...says the player who flat out refused to claim.

So?

Soft claiming is far scummier than refusing to claim.

Says who?

[chamber]

Dammit.

I'll claim right now. I'm a vig. The chamber kill was me.

boo