Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[Patrick]

Vote: MrBuddyLee

quickly.

[Patrick]

Checking in. I don't find anyone scummy yet.

Has this ever deterred you from placing an initial vote in the past?

Patrick suggests a bold strategy out of the gate, and one he knows will probably gain traction. I'd be interested to hear his specific motivations.

Not really a strategy, it just seems appealing given our last encounter. Why do you think that it would, "probably gain traction"?

I'd probably vote for Sarc now, but I don't want a competing wagon... yet.

Why not?

[Patrick]

I've read bluesoul's Post 28 a few times and have come to the conclusion that I don't mind it. I think it's clear his use of the word "three" was referencing the non-posters and not a likely number of mafia, and the assumption that MBL has scumbuddies did only strike me as within the context of DGB's assumption in the last post. One thing I don't like is that I don't pick up much curiosity from him, despite the relatively high number of posts he's made and the relative spotlight he's been under. Elvis gives me mildly bad vibes, not sure why.

I don't really see any particular Sarcastro/bluesoul connection.

Early town vibes from Ether and MBL for what seem like genuine attempts to kick off the game.

Unvote

.

I too noticed Ether calling out one "where are your scumbuddies" comments and leaving out others. I also think that voting someone on the basis of making a statement of that nature is legitimate, as statements like those get dropped all the time. The evidence is here in this thread, where its happened three times already in the first two pages.

Clarify this please. If that kind of statement is dropped all the time, why would that make it a legitimate reason for a vote?

MBL, I too would like to know what you like(d) about OGML. Why do you feel that OMGL's vote for Sarcastro was an appropriate vote, when all Sarcastro had done was cast an apparently arbitrary vote for Ether? Did you see something scummy in that first post?

[Patrick]

Meh. Combined with the disclaimer at the end of 36, it feels like an opportunistic way to attack DGB for doing what he himself evidently didn't believe to be damage. (No, this wasn't my original angle. Something bothers me about that post, dammit.)

Meh. When I read the post, I tried to tweak my brain and imagine I'm someone else, and decide whether that post seems like it could have been written naturally. I think it probably was. At a pinch, I could see it as trying to see if anyone would bite and go after DGB, but it's minor in my opinion. I don't understand what you mean by "for what he himself evidently didn't believe to be damage". Didn't he spend a few posts explaining why he

did

think her post had done some damage?

I'd like to hear what specifically DGB dislikes about MBL.

[Patrick]

Fail.

[Patrick]

Your interest in finding scum doesn't feel genuine to me. Your explaining your thought process to much.

No more than usual. What do you think of PJ?

[Patrick]

Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.

I thought I'd already explained that I didn't have any strategy in voting MBL, I just did it because of last time we played together (the game was Face to Face Mafia).

Vote: elvis_knits

[Patrick]

And that makes you want to vote me?

Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit.

[Patrick]

I assume the implication of this question is that pj is also explaining himself, but its not the act of explaining but the manner in which you did that I found scummy. You over emphasize the way you got to your conclusions instead of the conclusions themselves.

I can only see myself putting any great emphasis on that once, and that was because I'd found it helpful. Basically, I felt like one or two people were overthinking his comment and analysing the thought process heavily, whereas I think he likely said it casually.

As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.

You haven't done much scumhunting. At the time, you'd made no comments about anyone's alignment, and your question to me seemed to ignore the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant, which you twice said was irrelevant before. (MBL's last comment about my vote had a smiley face at the end, and didn't seem like a serious line of enquiry to me). (Also, there's no grudge).

DGB doesn't really seem suspicious to me. I've always seen her as being lovey-dovey regardless of alignment.

[Patrick]

After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.

[Patrick]

2.) I'm just plain not understanding Patrick's response to chamber in Post 87. I've read it about five times. I've deleted about three sets of questions about this, so I think I'll just ask for you to reword this response, please.

I suppose it wasn't that clear. Chamber accused me of overemphasising my thought process, and I assume he's referring to my Post 60, where I talk about how I tried to read bluesoul. My response to chamber in Post 87 explains why I was emphasising how I reached my conclusion. (I still think bluesoul's comment is being overanalysed, and I find his assertion that he was being hypothetical to be believable).

DGB: I don't get the timing of your bluesoul vote. The bit you quoted and called kwayzeee was something bluesoul had said more than once already, and he was only repeating it as part of defending himself. Why the hypereaction only now?

bluesoul: How could MBL have slipped up and revealed inside information that there are 30% scum in the game, when that percentage is impossible? You ignored that when responding to him, but that seems to be the basis for your vote.

[Patrick]

Patrick's effort so far has been mediocre going on decent. He did open a line of discussion with e_k that would've otherwise gone more-or-less unnoticed. Other than that there hasn't been a tremendous amount of substance to his posts. It's mostly questions without contributions. There's been a fair amount of that on MS lately so maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it, but I'd like to see him be a little bit more open in discussion, as it helps the town get information about you as well as the person you're questioning.

"Mediocre going on decent" made me laugh, if only because those two assessments aren't particularly close to each other. And I disagree with your assessment of my posts, I think I'm contributing just fine. Is there something specifically you want my opinion on? Also, don't presume to know my level of effort; I've thought alot about this game. For the record, my question to DGB in my last post was to open up another potential line of discussion; I think her vote for you looks overhyped/fake, especially considering the delay I pointed out.

Anyway, this percentages argument has been kind of making my eyes glaze over. MBL's 30% with the 20/10% split thing looks kind of arbitrary to me, but I don't see it as particularly scummy because I know some players like using percentages. I've certainly seen MBL do it, and IH's and PJ's comments on this look sketchy to me too. Bluesoul doesn't come off as scummy to me, my only real issue with him was that he wasn't scumhunting earlier, but that seems to have changed. I'm a bit suspicious of PJ because he doesn't remind me of the usual protown PJ that I've always played with, but that's mostly gut right now.

[Patrick]

I'm not understanding what IH thinks is strange about the two things he quoted at the top of this page. Some kind of elaboration would be useful there. I don't really agree with the case against MBL; my take on the quote snipping is much the same as PJ's, and I still think his first post looks protown if anything.

Pretty much, yeah. I'd like to hear an explanation too, though, or I'm gonna go ahead and disregard his vote.

Why disregard it? Given what you've said about chamber's playstyle, how do you plan on discerning his alignment? This seems like an odd kind of threat to make.

I should reread this at the weekend when I've got more time, and hopefully get a clearer picture in my mind of my top suspects.

[Patrick]

Bluesoul, please answer my questions from Post 170. DGB, please answer my question from Post 122.

Sarc and Patrick, please advise me on Elvis and OGML, respectively.

He hasn't particularly stood out to me. He feels a bit like he's picking at the edges of the game, because what he's been pressing hasn't struck me as very important, though I'll wait for what he's got to say about this conspiracy theory. I'll be reviewing more closely when I get that reread in this weekend, but at the moment there's several people that I'm more suspicious of.

Can you better explain what you find to be scummy about PJ's question to you/OGML's copying the question?

OGML: Why have I been raising your hackles a bit this game?

[Patrick]

Reread the game. Elvis, DGB and PJ all look scummy too me, with some weaker bad vibes from IH.

PJ isn't looking for scum nearly as much as he usually does. I won't go on at length trying to explain this since he's actually admitted it; his last post is a possible explanation for why that's happening, and I do agree with both the reads he gave there.

I think she went from one weak claim (PJ + EK scummy)

Why do you feel that this was a weak claim? You've said that your reason for voting DBG was no good, so why is it strange that she doesn't like it? Why is it strange that she dislikes elvis just parrotting your reason? In fact, if this vote was made for reactions, what useful reactions have you gotten from it? Often, a vote like that is made to see who'll follow it, elvis did that, and you didn't mention it at all.

DGB:

I'm not sure I can recall correctly how my brain worked on that day. It's one thing to mention the possibility, to get a discussion started, but to hang on to this twee, reaching idea like a pitbull on a ham bone and going on and on about it endlessly was just too much to be town behavior. I didn't view it as defending himself as much as I viewed it as pushing an idea. Do you think I misread him on that last part?

Yes, I definitely thought bluesoul was defending himself in frustration about the fact that people weren't seeing his comment as hypothetical. I think it's obvious that he wasn't hanging onto the idea like a pitbull on a ham bone and pushing it endlessly, since he'd already stated some time before that he'd decided it wasn't a big issue and that it "may yet work out as PJ noted". The bit that you voted him for looked like a defence of a previous position and not a further push. Your later justifications (with links) look very vague as well -- it's like you're trying to throw suspicion on him without explaining any of it at all, and finding his post 28 helpful (which is the one that started alot of the suspicion of him) doesn't seem consistent with your future suspicion of him.

Elvis_knits is still giving me this kind of mildly bad/blending kind of vibe. It doesn't feel like much, but Post 68 feels out of place every time I read it. It just seems disconnected from everything that's going on at the time, and has a vaguely accusatory edge that feels out of place too. Other than that, meh, she hasn't done anything that looks protown, and the attack on MBL seems a little off because I don't agree with either of the reasons.

Neutral on bluesoul. He's used some terrible logic at times, and Post 167 still smells funny (threatening chamber with suspicion or a vote seems more natural than what bluesoul said), but his tone does seem townish, and alot of the attacks on him so far have seemed to be for strange reasons.

Outside of those top 3 suspects, I'm not wild about IH's suspicions so far, nor his comment on MBL's numbers thing, though I can easily see town skimming over that debate. I feel similar about OGML's suspicions, though my assessment could change based on his next post. Elias is a player who I don't think ought to be in the game (nothing personal, just his schedule). I don't really agree with his reasons for suspecting both bluesoul and DBG, but that's about it. Need more to work with, and yet it's going to be a long time in coming. I'm at a bit of a loss there. I don't particularly like how Ether disappeared on vacation without answering my question or following up on her promise of activity, but I'm sticking to my two town reads for now. (MBL and Ether).

Anyway, DGB looks the worst to me with the attack on bluesoul.

Unvote, Vote: DGB

[Patrick]

Patrick: :goodposting: but I have a question for you, you haven't said much about Ether aside from fairly early in the game when you said it seemed like a genuine attempt to start the game off. Is that all or is there more you like? Explain why you feel she's a good town read (as I don't have much of a read on her either way and another perspective would be good).

It's difficult to explain because it's largely my gut/metagame that I have on her. There's not really that much else on reading her posts in isolation, except that the worry about PJscum in Post 113 makes me think we're on a similar wavelength, since I was starting to get the feeling around that time. Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.

I'll get to the argument between bluesoul and Sarcastro when I can, my brain doesn't seem to want to absorb it right now.

[Patrick]

@chamber, just dipping into your thought process here, I don't have any problem seeing Sarcscum speaking for bluesoultown early in the game. Not that it sticks out to me as scummy, but it's quite plausible. Scum trying to make friends in the town is very common.

It's kind of interesting how much you wrote there. For someone who found it scummy how I was explaining my thought processes, you're doing it far more than is usual for you. I like the increased participation and hope it continues, but I'm curious as to why you're doing it, since I know you generally like to keep thoughts to yourself.

I'm always more then willing to explain my own actions as long as it has nothing to do with where my vote is.

This is news to me. If this is true, what made you decide to explain why you voted me earlier in the game? I didn't even ask you to as such.

Regarding drawing connections on day 1, I'm undecided on how good it is strategically. In theory it's good but I have had one or two games where I've done it and it's hurt my play because I was going after a pairing rather than just individual scum. I certainly don't think it's a scummy thing to do in general though.

If I had to say one person who tipped the scales I would say DGB. I think she's done more than others about pairing people. Also pretty sure she has had little or no evidence when she draws these connections. Which makes it worse.

She's done a bit of it, though I'd like to point out that you're suggestion that she was connecting you and PJ is false; if anything, it seemed like the opposite to me, since she floated a possible

disassociation

between the two of you.

[Patrick]

I am indeed suggesting that any connection between me and Pj is false.

That's not what I meant. You're claiming that she tried to connect you to PJ, I'm saying that's false -- if anything, the opposite is true, since she gave a reason why the two of you might not be connected.

I realize you are referring to PJ voting DGB and then me voting DGB for the same reason. There's not much I can tell you except that I had that reaction to her post before I even read PJ's. If you think that was an unreasonable reaction to DGB's post, then I somewhat understand you problem with my vote. But if you find my response reasonable, then why can't you believe two people would have the same reasonable reaction to it?

Eh. It could the late hour, but this post sounds like you think I was attacking your vote. I was actually probing PJ's thought process there. (I don't think DBG's buttering up thing was scummy, so I wasn't wild about your vote, no).

It kind of makes me mad that you used the word "parotting" though. It smells like spin. Just because two people happen to agree on something doesn't mean they are parotting each other. And you said it like parotting was a fact.

*Shrug* I used it to say that you just agreed with him and copied the vote, as that's what I understand it to mean. Definitely no spin intended.

[Patrick]

DGB was picking out the two people who had just voted her, and claimed we were her top suspects. Her reasoning was that I was "defending her" (a weak claim she has not supported) and then voting her without explanation – a phenomenon I am sure she has seen before, yet she does not bother to say why "unexplained votes" are scummy.

Her stated reasoning seemed more based on the fact that she thought your reason for voting her was "gratuitous", rather than unexplained. I don't think her reaction to the two votes was scummy, although there was some OMGUS to it; I can easily see a townie reacting like that to two rapid votes that come for reasons which they don't perceive to be valid. That's why I question your characterisation of it as "strange".

I don't like how you use the word "parroting" (correcting the spelling here); EK had an additional reason for her vote ("alignment =/= whether you like somebody"), and it's certainly not scummy to agree with somebody. "Parroting" is really saying the same thing as somebody else, which EK was not doing. Your use of language is overly dismissive of EK's post.

You're the second person to mention that word usage, so maybe it did have more negative connotations than intended. I do still feel somewhat that elvis copied you; the addition she added seemed like a non-sequitor (where did DGB endorse the alignment of a player just because she likes them?). If there's something more to that though, elvis can correct me.

Regarding my last question to you, I can understand your comparison to the attorney example, but I really don't understand why I'm being FoSed for that. My question still allows for you to say that you got no useful reactions if that's true. I suppose the wording carries more of an implication that you should have gotten something useful from it, maybe that stems from the fact that I would have expected you to comment on elvis's vote after, and you didn't.

You've said you don't like early pairings strategically, do you find it scummy as elvis does?

I probably have more to say, but I'm out of time.

[Patrick]

considering that e_k had only posted six sentences at that point.. should be relatively easy to pin down what you don't like.

Not really. I saw Ether's vote for elvis and didn't really agree that elvis's second post of the game was scummy in itself, but just something about how she was approaching the game gave me mildly bad feelings. I didn't try particularly hard to put it into words, no.

Later, e_k calls Patrick out for voting her.. his response:

Not in itself, you just seem to be on the sidelines a fair bit.

A little unusual.. this is 24 hours after Patrick said e_k gave him bad vibes.

A few bad vibes before, and that post made it enough for me to want to vote her. I don't understand what you're calling unusual.

Then this, which seems a bit manufactured:

After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.

Attacking people for not piping up on particular issues is not entirely logical. I see the wider point that e_k is going after a seemingly lesser issue, but.. still feels weird.

That wasn't an attack. Elvis asked what I wanted her to comment on, so I gave some suggestions. I wasn't saying that everyone should have definitively weighed in on every single issue, I was demonstrating why I thought she was ignoring the meat of the game. Did you read the context of that post?

This is REALLY weird:

Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.

Is this over the top or for real, Patrick? What exactly has never failed you before?

Wow. You've done it AGAIN. You've snipped the part of that quote that makes it reasonably obvious what I was referring too. Here's the full paragraph:

It's difficult to explain because it's largely my gut/metagame that I have on her. There's not really that much else on reading her posts in isolation, except that the worry about PJscum in Post 113 makes me think we're on a similar wavelength, since I was starting to get the feeling around that time. Not much I can point to unfortunately, just the way I'm leaning at this stage. I'd like her to rejoin the game in a timely manner when she gets back from vacation, so I can hopefully decide whether I'm right about this. It's never failed me before, but I'd hate to be careless.

The first sentence, which you snipped, mentions my meta on Ether, which has never failed me before. Why did you snip that? And while we're at it, what the hell is over the top about any of that?

For someone who found it scummy how I was explaining my thought processes, you're doing it far more than is usual for you. I like the increased participation and hope it continues, but I'm curious as to why you're doing it, since I know you generally like to keep thoughts to yourself.

Did you realize this might deter posting? Do you realize that would be a scum play?

I disagree with the whole approach you've taken to this. Chamber is a player who I've nearly always known to be lurky and unhelpful, practically refusing to explain anything. His play is notably different in this game, and that was definitely worth asking about, especially since I thought I'd seen something that potentially went against his philosophy on how to play mafia. I said that I liked his increased participation and hope it continues; I suppose I can see how you might read the quote as a subtle attempt to deter participation, but I don't see how else I could have questioned him on the matter. I don't think he's scummy, but I don't think the reason for his increased participation is "obvious" at all (I'm assuming you were referring to the fact this is an invitational).

It's pretty clear to me that parrotting is intended to convey mimickry without thought. Your explanation here stretches credulity, no offense intended.

I still feel that she pretty much copied PJ's vote. Again, although she added an extra line, I didn't (and still don't) see that as an additional reason for voting. I'm not sure what else I can add, I didn't use the word to intentionally distort what was going on, and I feel it's being blown out of proportion.

[Patrick]

Sometimes, my suspicions start off as gut feelings then become more tangible, either over time or because of a single post. I see what you're calling unusual, but simply disagree that it is.

I also thought you WERE attacking e_k for being on the sideline and not commenting on relevant issues. Why would you not call that an attack? A press on a player you believe to be scum based on oddities in their interactions?

Let's see if I can make this coherent. I disliked her play because she seemed to be ignoring the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant. I wasn't attacking her for not commenting on one particular issue (I think it's fine to miss out one of them, or even several). I listed those only as a reply to a question, it wasn't really meant as an extension of the case.

After preview:

MBL, while reading your case on Patrick, I was exclaiming, in my head, "brilliant!" "OMG!" "I could never catch so many tells in a million years! What a stellar string!"

"I'm totally voting Patrick now!"

Then YOU don't vote Patrick.

Erm, why not?

I'm not entirely sure he was making a case against me, it seemed more like a balanced analysis of my play. If you think he was, and he pointed out so many good tells, why didn't you vote me? It kind of feels like you're asking for his approval, in a way.

[Patrick]

He made some points against me, but also some in favour, and concluded that he wouldn't lynch me today. A case is usually more one sided. Regardless of whether it was a case or not, I don't get why you didn't vote me if you think it's so good and made you "totally want to vote Patrick now!" Why did MBL not voting me mean that you didn't vote me?

[Patrick]

I was attacking you overall. I'm saying that the bit MBL quoted there and called "manufactured" wasn't really an attack, but a listing.

[Patrick]

Patrick, your initial reason for voting me was something about me ignoring the meat of the game, playing on the sidelines or something. At the time you posted that, it struck me that you were singling me out from others who were playing similarly (perhaps not contributing enough). IH, Chamber, Elias come to mind.

What made me seem scummier than others who weren't contributing that much?

IH and elias hadn't even shown up then, and both were known to have limitations on there time (elias unable to post during week, and MBL posted something about IH being away until the 12th). Chamber had shown up, and despite having a lower number of posts than you, felt more involved and direct. There was also a bit of a contradiction in your play which I wasn't keen on.

[Patrick]

*birthday-bites-Patrick*

Should be good fun.

What do you think of elvis_knits?

Patrick, are you scum?

No.

[Patrick]

Role PM.

[Patrick]

DGB, still looking for an answer to the question in Post 242.

I think most of MBL's issues with my play are nitpicks, although I also realise I'm biased. His comments on Ether are actually a decent attempt to articulate the town read and look protown to me. I don't like the declaration that he'll FoS the next person "making hay" about chamber's increased activity; if it's suspicious, why not wait and see if someone does it?

In general MBL is posting alot and adding alot of content to the game, which is a refreshing change from how he played early on in our games together in the past. He's trying to get everyone involved and for the most part sounds genuine to me. I think that's more signficant than the distortions so far.

OGML and IH need to stop lurking and give us some good contributions. I've especially seen this kind of thing far too many times from IH.

[Patrick]

MBL, while reading your case on Patrick, I was exclaiming, in my head, "brilliant!" "OMG!" "I could never catch so many tells in a million years! What a stellar string!"

"I'm totally voting Patrick now!"

Then YOU don't vote Patrick.

Erm, why not?

And now to answer your question, the only player that I find scummy is bluesoul. And even him, only borderline scummy. Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

Which is it? A page ago you said MBL made a great case against me that totally made you want to vote me, now you're saying bluesoul is the only person you're finding scummy at all? What exactly did you agree with? What changed your mind so quickly?

[Patrick]

Hey DGB, it's rude to ignore people. I asked you questions in both Post 242 and Post 267. Please respond. I should probably explain that I found Post 239 fairly opportunistic, and I don't see how it's a townie thought process. It strongly implies you'd have voted me if MBL had, and didn't because he didn't. The follow up soon after which says you only find bluesoul even slightly suspicious baffles me more than I find it scummy, but I want to understand the thought process there too.

2.) Patrick, how often do you think points against you are something other than nitpicks?

More often than nitpicks, I just see them as plain stupid. But to answer what I think you're asking, it's probably fairly rare. What's the purpose of this question?

Speaking of which, what are people's thoughts on the deadline versus hypothetically having to hold out for posts from IH and OGML? (I'm assuming getting Elias on weekdays is a lost cause anyway. Do we know how long he's at summer camp?) I'm waffling between thinking, "Ooh, activity-based" and worrying that it couldn't possibly be more than a week.

The rules say only that a deadline might be imposed after 3 weeks, and it can be avoided by staying active. All we have to do is simply (heh) stay active. I definitely favour the day going on a while longer, because I have very little read on several of players. And Elias missed posting at the weekend, again.

Elvis, what do you think of PJ?

[Patrick]

I'm getting bored here. Anything I do or don't do is interpreted as scummy. It's getting old.

I'm not interpretting everything you do as scummy, I'm trying to work out what the hell is going on in your head. You know, what mafia is all about. Your boredom is of no interest to me right now.

I'm still not sure what to make of that incident. MBL makes a case against you, does not vote you, I found THAT to be scummy. So no, I wasn't going to vote for you. That didn't jump at you as being scummy??? And then you react by claiming this was not a case against you at all. I've never seen that kind of behavior and I don't know if you're townies caught in your own pointless verbiage, or if you're scumbags trying to set up false trails for later confusion.

I've already explained how it wasn't a case against me, it seemed clear even from only those recaps he'd done that he found at least one player scummier than me. He even made a point of saying that he wouldn't lynch me today. So no, it didn't surprise me at all that he didn't vote me.

And what's OPPORTUNISTIC about it, Patrick???

I didn't vote. I didn't trust MBL. Show me the opportunism.

The fact that you vaguely agreed with his points without getting your hands dirty with any specifics, mostly.

Unvote

though. I need to think about this.

[Patrick]

What is it with so many people questioning the purpose of my questions lately? The best questions are the ones that don't have an apparent purpose, precisely because people don't know whether they're answering how they "should" answer it or not.

I kind of felt like you knew what the likely answer would be from playing/ranting with me, although I can't remember a specific time when I've said to you, "I often think attacks on me are trash" or something similar.

--> a.) If you think most points against you are nitpicks, can you show me cases made against you in a couple finished game that you felt were justified (i.e. not "nitpicks")? [Note: If you think nitpicks are justified, then please rephrase your complaint against MBL, because complaining about justified points just seems like sulking].

Newbie 224 (first game I played you, first game overall) and open 54 (my most recent scum performance). In the newbie game I think virtually everything said about me was fair although I haven't read it in ages, and in open 54, the most valid point of the whole game against me was made by Glork on page 3 or thereabouts, about my wagon hop onto appleof88. There are other games - the two where I was lynched as town, which I'm not going to name, and probably others that I can look up if necessary.

--> b.) Do you feel like you get nitpicked more as town or as scum?

I don't know. More as town because I'm town more, but in relative terms, I've no idea.

--> c.) Do you think nitpicks often have kernels of truth in them? If not, why call them nitpicks? If there's truth to nitpicks, do you feel they are justified? How justified?

I guess they often do have a kernel of truth. I don't feel I can answer the question of whether or not they're justified in general terms, I have to just say it depends. Answer to the next question might help though.

--> d.) Do you think scum or town are more likely to nitpick?

Again, I've never really thought about it in general terms, and I think case by case is more useful. For example, I could see town doing it early in the game just to get some discussion going. Later on it depends on whether or not there are alot of strong suspicions/cases going around, if there are, a nitpick may look bad in comparison. Sometimes scum dissect a player's posts and do it in an attempt to make them look bad, sometimes you see paranoid or stubborn townies doing it, and telling them apart can be done by looking at timing/tone/probably other stuff I've forgotten. In this game, I could see MBL's post as kind of feeling me out as town, and find what he's in the process of doing now to be modestly protown.

--> e.) Do you think you play drastically different as scum than as town? Do you think most of the differences are minor? Minor enough to sound nitpicky?

I think there are some fairly significant differences, which I wouldn't call nitpicky.

-----------------

So, um, DGB's appeals to emotion do make me nervous.

They sound kind of genuine to me, although I know DGB has a reputation of being a good actor.

Elvis's vote for DGB is bugging me, and I am really struggling to articulate why. The best I can do is say that I don't really find DGB's, "We need more voting/wagoning" comment to be scummy - it's weird, but seems like it's as likely to draw votes onto her as onto anyone else, since she's the leading wagon, and therefore, I find elvis's translation of it in post 265 innacurate.

There's other stuff I need to do, like look more closely at the lurkers highlighted in the last two posts, but I really have to leave this now. Hopefully later. In the meantime, we're probably ok if we have a decent number of people posting often, since the formula probably takes into account number of posts and number of players posting.

[Patrick]

Check in post for activity, I'm busy today but can get some content tomorrow. I should add that I'll have limited access from Monday-Saturday next week; the place I'm going has wireless, but it's very expensive so I won't be using it heavily. I'll try to keep up though.

[Patrick]

I'm not seeing much to seperate the lurkers in my mind. I somewhat doubt that elias is lurking strategically -- he missed several weekends in Mini 585, a game which I took over modding a while ago, and he even critisised me there after his lynching for not PMing him to notify him he was dead (indicating that he was generally paying no attention whatsoever). I'm not especially impressed with his suspicions post because his top two suspects/reasoning for top two look rather mechanical.

I feel somewhat similar about IH's first post, although he asked PJ a fair question. His "Someone correct me if anything I've said is wrong as I was trying to read this quickly. " doesn't bother me as I can easily see that written in the middle of a stream of consciousness type post. I think his mention of Ether's case agaist elvis is slightly weird because the part he analyses is the most irrelevant part that was pretty clearly an early discussion stimulator. Other than that I can't see much else to pick out: his activity/effort hardly surprises me because I've seen him as useless for like a year now, and frankly I just wish he'd stop signing up for games and not playing them.

I'm ok with OGML's questioning MBL's town read of him, and might even have given him half a protown point for it, if he'd actually dropped it after MBL's reasonable explanation. Looking back, I weakly agree with Ether's suspicion of OGML's weirdly overreaching attack on her. I don't find it scummy that he's claiming there's a connection between PJ, Ether and Sarcastro even though I don't see one, because I don't think scum are more likely to do this, especially between 3 players who aren't strongly in the spotlight.

I saw IH as the worst of these three when I reread the game a while ago, but I'm not seeing much of a difference between any of them scumminess wise anymore. I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game -- any or all of these guys could be scum, and we need to force them to be involved in the game in real time. Scum have a far easier time lurking and making catch up posts every week or so -- don't let anyone do this.

It's actually occurred to me that Sarcastro hasn't done much lately either. Holiday might be a factor. I'm too lazy now (writing this after the rest of the post) to look much into him, although PJ's analysis seems reasonable.

---------------------

On current things, DBG isn't becoming any easier for me to read. I also am struggling to see what role could be better off being lynched than being in the open (supersaint is possible I guess, but rare, if that's what's going on, I want DBG to claim it right now). I could see this as a scum gambit and I could see DGB using it, add my name to the list of players who want a full claim. Without one, I'd be willing to go with a DBG lynch on the chance she's gambitting, it's a reasonably informative lynch anyway and I think she's done some scummy things. The wagon still worries me though, in part because of the stickiness of some of the votes on it, especially when DGB is an easy target if town, and because elvis's vote still seems a bit off; it's like she was building up to it in her previous two posts before the vote with what she asked DBG, and I'm not too convinced by her reasons. There's nothing outrageous here I can point too, but my gut dislikes it.

DBG, if you're town, please prove that you're not making up some story to confuse everyone, and claim your role. It's obvious that a bunch of people want you too, and I really can't think of any role where it would be better for you to be lynched than to have to claim.

My main dilemna is between DBG and elvis: which I want to lynch is affected by DGB's claim. I'll make it a priority to keep checking this game when on holiday: I think it pretty unlikely that we're going to be zapped by the day auto-ending particularly soon, but we have to err on the side of speed because of the unknown nature of it.

MBL: Have you got a top suspect/top two at the moment?
Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?

Ether: Did you get anything from Thespival about DGB, or was that covered by "DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling"?

[Patrick]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

First off, I'm not going to avoid asking questions on the chance they might annoy you. I won't get anywhere if I approach the game like that. Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

I don't see the correlation here between DGB's play and PJ's play. DGB's comment of "everyone looking pretty townie" is a tell that I have seen scum make. It is representative of a player who is not scum hunting. I don't think PJ fits that category. Do you? Pj has been asking a lot of questions and commenting a lot. If he's not scum hunting, then I guess he's putting on a pretty good show. If you think his play is somehow similar to DGB's you're going to have to explain it to me, because I just am not seeing it.

Actually, on seeing this, I'll scratch that as I think I read too much into it. Regarding PJ, I think it would be rather harsh to say he's not scumhunting at all. I do think he's scumhunting less than usual.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I have been asked before about connections between me and PJ. I have answered all your questions and tried to be as helpful as possible. YOU have not argued with my explanations. All you do is bring up different BS points. If you feel my explanations have been bad or unsatisfactory, why haven't you argued against them? OF COURSE you were drawing a connection between myself and PJ. You've asked about us before, so why wouldn't you be doing it now? Your failure to admit it is very strange and hmmmm, scummy. If you think I'm being unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

unvote; vote patrick

I can't remember asking you questions about connections to PJ. I don't have especially long online, so I can't check closely, but all I can remember asking that you might have interpretted that way was when I asked you and PJ for opinions of each other, which is something I do semi-often. I'd like some examples of "different BS points" that I've brought up, otherwise I'll assume that's just a cheap shot you can't back up. This whole quote by you is weird, and I'm not sure I can even see what you're accusing me of, let alone why you're voting me.

[Patrick]

It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.

So what? Do I need to pull up examples of myself asking this kind of question in previous games? I sometimes ask for opinions of players I find scummy, sometimes I ask just because I don't have a clear idea what a player thinks of another player. Sometimes both. Sometimes maybe some other reason. I still find that an extraordinarily weak vote on your part.

[Patrick]

That came under the category of asking about players I find scummy, and the category of asking when I didn't have a clear idea. I don't particularly mind PJ's characterisation of testing a possible connection. I do object to your characterisation that I'm trying to force a connection, then apparently voting me because you think I'm denying it (why would I need to deny it??)

And obviously I don't have your opinions of everyone in the game. If I was asking questions like that, I'd simply ask you what you think of every player. I don't often bother with that.

[Patrick]

I find it somewhat unlikely that Ether and elvis are scum together, but not for the reason you gave. I agree that chamber/elvis is unlikely. Not sure on elvis/PJ.

Your last post kind of baffles me. You seem to be assuming both IH and elias are town for no particular reason, unless I'm missing something. (For the record, I know IH is perfectly capable of lurking like this as scum.) I kind of get that the post seems to be a theory thing based on elvis definitely being scum, but I don't see why that would clear those two. Also surprised that you think Patrick/elvis is at all likely; you've 95% struck off elvis/Ether because you don't think elvis would seek approval from a scumbuddy, so what do you think of the post where elvis seeks mine by trying to make me feel better about her? Quite a curious post overall.

I'm going to

vote: DGB

. Needs to stop stalling on the claim.

[Patrick]

Welcome pablito.

MBL, I don’t have any meta on elias, but I don’t see why deliberate lurking (which I’m still not convinced he’s doing) would make him more likely town. If a scum lurks and succeeds in flying under the radar because of it, they’re not really letting their team down. A lurking townie is nearly always letting the town down.

I feel that Ether could be posting more at this point, especially since she’s leaving tomorrow and already made a point of telling us how she’d be struggling to contribute much after her last holiday because of our lack of time.

I’m still kind of in two minds, but I don’t want the possibility of a DBGscum getting through by just stalling on us.

[Patrick]

Apologies for lack of quotes and lack of checking any page other than the last two; I’m typing this thing offline due to the extortionate cost of access etc etc.

@pablito, the main part for me to respond to is my post 261, which I assume was a comment on MBL’s activity. Of course, MBL posts content as both alignments. He’s doing more in this game than I’ve experienced in all 4 of my past games with him (3 of which he was scum). I don’t understand your interpretation of DGB’s half claim either, but even if she was following some convoluted scheme, I’d say it’s high time to realise that it’s not helping. Who do you suspect the most from your radar list? Presumably DGB is up there somewhere due to the vote, but who else?

I find it unlikely MBL/DGB are scum together – there’s just too much open coaching and support. (That said, since this morning, it seems he’s arguing the same, after previously saying he’d look bad if DBG is lynched as scum. Hmm.) I could see MBLscum trying to look good if he knows DGB will come up town; I could also see genuinely uncertain MBLtown. I think I’d be looking into elvis and pablito the most if DBG is lynched as town, but as I’ve said already, a number of people need more attention tomorrow if still around, because of how little they’ve done today. If DGB is scum, my suspicion of pablito would fall somewhat, but elvis is probably still a good suspect.

[Patrick]

I don't find Ether's asking for DGB to confirm/deny being a supersaint to be scummy, though I disagree that there's no harm done if DGBscum claims supersaint (even if it's a dead end claim, I'd rather know someone is scum now than in a couple of days).

pablito, I'm still looking for an idea of who you suspect most from your list.

Like pablito, Patrick also calls out Elias for lurking, but not IH. In this post,, Patrick makes what can almost be construed as excuses for IH's lurking. He later says: "I don't think any of them would make a good lynch today; I do think they need more heat early tomorrow so that they stop disgracing this game." Why not today, why tomorrow? What does he expect to change? Patrick does get townie points for pointing out that MBL seems to label IH & Elias as town for "no particular reason."

IH is generally so lazy that he'll blow off games regardless of alignment. I've played with him doing it as town, doing it as scum and even had to deal with it as a mod before (Mafia 70, where he played under the alt Flare). I'm not making excuses for him - I think it's very inconsiderate, especially to keep doing it repeatedly - I'm just giving my opinion that it doesn't mean much alignmentwise. My comment about not lynching any of the lurkers today was because I don't think any of them are all that scummy and it would be little better than a random lynch. I don't see it as practical to start pressure wagoning any of them at this point either.

I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: elvis_knits

[Patrick]

I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.

Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)

What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?

[Patrick]

You are being underhanded here. She make it clear in the first post that her pressure on dgb was there because she wasn't being productive. Its clear then that it was dgbs analysis that convinced ether to vote elvis what I imagine her post meant however was that dgb didn't make ether suspect elvis more then dgb but dgb less then elivis.

DGB's analysis would be the obvious thing to spring to my mind as well, except she said in that post that it wasn't influenced by that, and the addition of the word "anyway" reinforces that in my mind. Your interpretation is possible (although I don't get why you needed to offer it before she even said anything). I dislike the suggestion that I'm being underhanded; even if your interpretation is correct, I don't see how that could work as any kind of deliberate trickery on my part.

I'll say more on other recent stuff tomorrow.

[Patrick]

Elvis, I don't think you answered the main question. What do you think MBL's scummy motive was behind doing that? I still don't get why he'd deliberately misunderstand what bluesoul was saying.

[Patrick]

I'm a bit alarmed at the speed of Elvis's wagon, votes were placed in posts 401, 402, and 404 to go from 1 to 4. Granted, MBL was already starting to push that way, and one of them is DGB. Patrick's jumps out at me moreso than Ether's because Ether already admitted she was on the DGB wagon because it was more protown than fighting it. Patrick's vote occurred with precious little explanation behind it. That would be the first possibility of a pairing I've contemplated thus far in the game (DGB-Patrick). For the record, I do not go actively looking for scum partners on Day One. Day 2 all bets are off though.

For reasoning as to why I find elvis scummy, I'd refer you to DGB's last post, which refers to my posts throughout the game. If you're questioning the specific timing of the switch, I did it because DBG came back and at least seems to be making an effort to analyse the game. I'm still leery of the claim situation, but don't feel right voting DBG over elvis at this point. I'd like you to give a little more detail as to what you find scummy about elvis's recent posts, because your suspicion of her seems to have occurred with precious little explanation behind it

[Patrick]

Patrick, did my last answer suffice or did you want more extrapolation. Just want to check in with you about that since I failed to answer you right away last time.

It gave me a good enough idea of your suspects, though I hope you'll provide some thoughts on elvis relatively soon. I don't really get your case on Ether, though I vaguely remember you using a kind of, "They haven't been on the defensive" type of tell before.

I can tell I'm going to have to reread these last few pages with more focus; should happen tomorrow. For now, I'm most interested in elvis spelling out her thought process on what the scum motive was behind the quote snipping.

[Patrick]

Welcome!

[Patrick]

You know, I really don't know when this game jumped the shark in terms of relying too much on stupid connections between players. I don't think it was uber horrible from the start. And I don't think there is a definitive point where it got bad. I just think we've been going that way for a while. I can go back and see who the first person was to try making a bad connection between people. Is that what you want me to do? Blame it all on one person? I'm not sure that would really be reliable. I'm not sure the first person to say something like that is def. scum. But it may be worth discussing.

I think the players that have been trying to connect others most are: MBL, DGB, Patrick, Ether, OGML (I think he was saying something about sarc/bluesoul early in the game). I obviously know it's not possible for all of them to be scum, so that's why I made the comments that we were contributing to a bad environment. I'm not sure who is/is not scum in that group. But I have not liked some of the comments that each of them have made in regards to connecting people based off little evidence or reasoning.

I dislike this whole campaign against people drawing connections. Let me link to an MD thread I made ages ago: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 098#583098. I feel this thread is relevant even though I was asking at the time more with newbie games in mind. The answers tell me that drawing connections or not drawing connections is a stylistic thing: you can see a number of good players in favour of it, some are ok with it, a few don't like it. You're free to find it ineffective on day 1 if you like, and in one or two cases I even agree that MBL and DGB may be setting too much store in you being scum, but I feel you're trying too hard to paint anyone who does it as scummy.

And really, I'm relying heavily on connections? I've done loads of scumhunting based on individual players using tells and gut feelings; the only thing that I can remember doing that was even close to drawing a connection was asking you and PJ what you thought of each other; are you saying it's a crime to even ponder a possible connection? I think you're just spouting hyperbole.

[Patrick]

I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).

I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?

I'm actually talking about the whole notion rather than that one post, although it did push me over the edge. What I get from your posts is that you're saying anyone drawing connections today is scummy. I'll quote the post where I got this:

And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.

The post I quoted in my last post also fairly clearly has an accusatory edge towards all the people you listed, and I think that any notion that I've been contributing towards a "bad environment" is hyperbole, since hardly anything I've done is based on connections.

I don't like the notion that drawing connections on day 1 is scummy because:
1) It's clearly debated whether it's useful or not, and people have different opinions to you (not affected by alignments, as shown by the MD thread).
2) Even if someone is definitely pushing a connection too hard, I don't think it's clear that it's scummy. I often see townies simply becoming too married to their conspiracy theories.

What trap do you think you've just been caught in?

If it makes you feel any better patrick misrepresenting your one post was clear to at least me.

Fuel for the fire again. Nice.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I disagree. I've made my opinion clear. I mildly resent you calling my thoughts hyperbole, especially when you're at least as bad as I am. I felt like it was a trap because I only brought my point up again because Pablito asked me to, and that triggered a fresh attack from you. I only named you because Pablito was fishing for it. I feel like he set me up.

I stand by my thought that the big deal you've been making out the "bad environment" and any suggestion that I'm contributing to such an environment is hyperbole, and I also dislike the idea that anyone doing it is scummy (I just don't think that's tenable given the number of people who seem to be happy doing it on any day 1). Then again, I think I've seen the second one as a game philosophy before, so probably not much point arguing anymore about it.

Question - anyone think we're at risk of deadline at this point? I think the replacements have caused an uptick of activity, but I don't want to assume that the days before didn't cause us to fall into deadline.

Probably not too urgent. I'm hoping recent replacements and a replacement still being looked for contributes in some way to the formula.

I'd like to see posts from DGB, bluesoul and Ether. Ether in particular feels like she hasn't contributed for a long time, and I know she's had the access to do so.

[Patrick]

Beware Patrick. I'm sure he'd make magnificent scum. What irked me about him when I was scum and he was town is that he exuded towniness and I couldn't sucker anyone into finding him the least bit suspicious. His posts had a golden quality about them. Not quite as much so this game. Not terrible, but not squeaky clean.

I actually feel the need to contradict the first part, and not as some daft attention seeking act. If you're going to put signficant weight in that kind of paranoia, you need to check your facts, because I'm actually much weaker as scum than as town. The other observation feels genuine, though I feel that particular meta is a year or so out of date.

I can't be bothered to analyse anything having just worked 13 hours, so I'll just add that most of the other comments seem reasonable, except that I'd look harder at bluesoul if elvis is scum.

[Patrick]

What I was trying to say is that though I think you'd be great scum, you wouldn't seem AS sincere in your scumhunting unless you were pointing out the real flaws in your scumpartners.

Sure, but what I was trying to say was that I wouldn't be great as scum.

If you're town, I'll be looking back at Patrick, who pushed you early, and MBL, who picked up on you later but has since pushed hard (I found his analysis less compelling than DGB's).

How come Ether isn't on this list? It seems like she falls into exactly the same category you've put me in. If you think there's something wrong with my arguments against elvis, I'd rather you explain it now.

Or how Patrick argued semantics with me about how I dislike pairings on D1, when he could have been scum hunting. I think he was just trying to stay active while contributing nothing, and hoping my lynch would go through.

I'm arguing semantics? You and PJ were the ones who attacked me over fucking trifling issues of word choice, and even now you've still been trying to cling onto my use of the word "parotting" as a major point against me. I said that I dislike the whole idea that looking for pairings on day 1 is scummy: I gave arguments for why I don't think it is, and I've called you on what I believe is you reaching to broadly paint anyone who does it as scummy. Obviously you disagree with that assessment, but how is that arguing semantics?

basically caught up, analysis post will come in a day or two as I try to refine reads. My question: why are we disregarding the scummy moves that DGB has taken just because she stoppedbeing emo and posted some analysis? Does that erase all of her scummy posts? Just curious as to where all the leniency towards her is coming from, and why.

Personally I haven't just decided she's town. The analysing of the game just put her below elvis in my suspicions.

[Patrick]

Refusing to selfhammer isn't indicative of anything other than the refuser isn't a moron, so why bring it up at all unless you think it's telling of something?

I think you're reaching here.

and honestly the thought we're going to reason out a scum lynch day 1 is silly; PJ had it spot on with his "you can catch some good players, but you can't catch them all" statement.

This is so bad I have to take you to task on it. PJ did not have it spot on - his point of view likely comes from several bad experiences he's had where playing with a list of good players has resulted in a town loss. His experiences are not necessarily representitive of what really goes on (I've taken part in a number of high level games that ended in town wins). And of course it's possible to lynch scum on day 1. This kind of attitude is seriously not helpful, and heck, you yourself brought up an example of a high level game where scum was lynched on day 1.

Ether has been rising in my suspicions, just because this kind of disinterest (especially when game is not boring) is more consistent with how she plays as scum than as town.

I'm not all that bothered by the lack of vote from pablito and elias at this point, because I doubt the day will come to a halt just yet. pablito gives me better vibes than PJ did actually, but he's hard for me to read.

[Patrick]

Parick has bothered me for much of the game. He calls out E_K for not scum hunting quite early in the game, which is an odd place to do so - especially when he hadn't been doing it either.

I suppose I hadn't called anyone scum before voting elvis, but I was clearly commenting on issues and alignments. That's what I felt was missing from her play. I don't see why saying it early game is a problem - that's a time when you attack people over minor things, and I saw a post that pinged.

I also didn't like what I saw as a little buttering up of MBL when referring to his first post as very pro-town.

I said it gave me early town vibes. In my experience, scum are often nervous at the start of the game, and probably doubly so in an invitational, so early attempts to generate activity often gain protown points in my book. I don't remember specifically calling it "very protown"; post number?

He made some very good points about Patrick and Patrick shows up quickly to rebut. Note that my comment above about Sarcastro regards lurking scum/townies.

Can you clarify what this means?

I actually felt that E_K earned some points by coming out on top of Patrick in their dust-up, but that won't really mean anything if they're both scum.

I can't really respond to this with anything other than "I disagree" (I don't think she came out on top of any dust up with me, whichever one of the many you're referring too).

I agree somewhat that elvis was reaching on the SK issue, but your other (main?) reason for suspecting her seems odd to me. It doesn't seem scummy on her part.

Been someone preoccupied lately, but I want to look over and decide how I feel about the replacers/elias soon. For now, I'll satisfy myself with repeating that Ether needs to post. Or at least, give us an update or something.

[Patrick]

Does the fact that you don't like his reasons for voting me make you think twice about lynching me?

A tiny bit, added to the niggling doubts I got from the way CDB joined the wagon, but I'm not sure I have a stronger suspect. I owe the game a bit of a catchup, and should be fine to do that tomorrow.

[Patrick]

elias is worrying me. He hasn't posted anything particularly bad (unexplained protown read on Sarcastro seems weird, but I spose there could be something I'm not seeing), but he's flying really low under the radar. He hasn't posted in 8 days, and his last few posts could just be waiting to see which way people go on DGB before committing to something. If he's scum, this has been a cakewalk for him so far; he really needs to be more heavily involved in the game in real time.

CDB's analysis looks somewhat meatier, doesn't really remind me of the last time I played with him, where he was scum. His jump on the elvis wagon still feels awkward to me, it usually pings my scumdar when I see any trace of deferring responsibility, however minor, and I think he does that with, " and I'm thinking that it may be best for me to trust those who have been playing this from the start and clearly feel strongly against elvis. (And, as I say, I am suspicious after reading the above)". Nevertheless, he looks ok to me overall.

HackerHuck gives me mixed signals. Some of his comments on players look very reasonable and match up pretty well with my own, but his reasons for suspicion of elvis leave me unconvinced. This particularly:

My biggest concerns came with her lack of interest in why Ether wanted her specifically to hammer. I am still wondering why that is, but Elvis never seemed to care and it wasn't like that comment slipped by her.

I've looked back at Ether's post on this, and it seemed pretty obvious why she wanted elvis specifically to hammer. Can you better explain this suspicion? Elvis responded and you just ignored it, saying you'd hammer her later and that her lynch is a foregone conclusion. I can see what you're getting at with your other point against her, but still doesn't seem that big, and you were apparently reading elvis as not very likely mafia in the first 10 pages.

bird: I find it odd how you said you didn't like both Ether's and my unexplained votes so early in the game. Do you feel voting without giving reasons is inherently scummy, or was there something in particular about these posts that bothered you? (I'm aware you retracted your dislike of mine).

Can you elaborate on why PJ looked town to you?

I think elias looks worse than CDB, and I'm still making my mind up on the other two pending a few responses. (I might do bird again as I'm getting lazy now).

Starting to lean towards bluesoul as town based on gut from the tone of his posts, and the way in which he seems to repeatedly get flak for these early game reasons which I've never found convincing. I'm slightly less confident in my vote than before, but no other vote really appeals to me at the moment.

[Patrick]

Didn't the top paragraph of post 552 explain it? [/quote]

[Patrick]

Elvis is my top suspect. After that I think it's DGB, pablito, HackerHuck and elias. That's the ordering that comes to mind offhand, I'd need to reread to be sure of it. Maybe switch pablito and HackerHuck there, since HackerHuck hasn't really convinced me with his response to my questioning. I'd like to see pablito playing slightly less casually at this point though.

* Is there anyone who's skating to D2, and how can we get more info on them ASAP?

elias seems the most consistent skater throughout the game. CDB owes us a post, Ether still feels like she could be doing more.

[Patrick]

Home internet down, and I have zero access at work (nor library after today). On very quickly skimming I wasn't impressed with elias's attack on DGB, but I'm surprised a wagon came of it. I'll read up as soon as home access is restored - should be friday at the latest.

[Patrick]

Back from my limited access, somewhat agree with elias's response there. Some thoughts on what I've seen:

MBL was practically having orgasms about the game on his return from his holiday, I'd guess it's genuine so he's probably town. My only caveat is that I thought he was probably town in the first half of FTF Mafia and he wasn't; his play seems different here though.

Ether seems protown again after her last few: brings up several points I agree with, especially about elvis, and I doubt she'd have defended elias at that point as scum (regardless of elias's alignment).

bluesoul's last post looks unreasonable and he could be doing stuff himself (MBL asked him a question if I recall). Still the frustrated town tone.

I agree with those saying that elias's posts did seem already geared towards his end result, which was voting DGB. Overall he made some ok points, some of which are issues I have with DGB, although the analysis seemed rather harsh. There's very little in elias's posting that gives me town vibes, and a few mild scummy things (lurking/noncommital for ages and then his approach to voting DGB). I would tolerate an elias lynch, but I think elvis or DGB would be better (and *possibly* HackerHuck or pablito although I keep changing my mind especially with pablito).

My top suspects haven't substantially changed, but I feel somewhat disconnected from the game and would welcome (even appreciate) any questions about specific things.

[Patrick]

Further, were I scum, I could have easily lurked straight through to Day Two as basically no one was pressuring me. The fact that I'm even analizing players is a point in my favor which no recognizes.

Disagree, I think your failure to post was getting more attention. Lack of votes doesn't necessarily mean there was no pressure on you to produce the goods, and I don't think the fact you're analysing players makes you more likely to be town. I do agree that the wagon on you in overdone.

I'm slightly surprised you're reading bluesoul as town since your summary there was mostly critisism and you've read him as slightly scummy up until now. Anything in particular about him that reads as protown?

[Patrick]

How would you compare and contrast the hissy fits thrown by DGB, elias and elvis when run up?

DGB's I thought contained a hint of frustrated town. I don't really remember an elvis hissy fit off the top of my head, and elias's is meh. I know he gets pissed off as town and also does it as scum to stay consistent with that. You claim that he didn't call anyone scummy for voting him, which isn't entirely true. I could metagame this and look for games where he's got angry as town and scum, but right now it's not happening. It doesn't set off my scumdar though.

Although it's hardly top priority, what is it that makes you think DBG/elvis/elias doesn't work as a scumteam?

Patrick, why do you doubt that Ether would defend Elias (independent of his alignment)? Why her more than any other person?

As scum commenting on town, I feel like she'd have been more likely to make some kind of use of the opportunity, even if only for the future (I've never really seen her closing off avenues in her admittedly limited scum history). As scum commenting on a partner, I don't think she'd have had the nerve to present such a vague defence in face of the obviously rising suspicion/votes on him; that's partly from what (I think) I know about her. As for the other question, I don't recall anyone else defending elias in a similar way.

[Patrick]

Patrick then tries to really take the wind out of the sails by starting off a little heavy on Elias and then directing his attention to the newly replaced. It’s a good time to be asking questions, so it may not be as suspicious as I first interpreted it.

Wind out of what sails? All I can imagine is the elvis_knits wagon, which I stayed on. That post wasn't really about her, it was me taking a look at players who I hadn't much of a read on. What are you calling out as suspicious?

Elias has done this twice. Once in terms of his language something about the town standpoint. And I already attacked him on it. And now again here about scumhunting. Elias does not feel comfortable with his own game in this invitational to rely on it. While this can be overt frustration, it didn't start until he had to be on the defense. While his last post feels a little better, I doubt that I will be moving my vote for a while.

I agree that his defence about being a weak scumhunter is a poor one. The pointing to his use of language regarding "according to the town" doesn't bother me, and his followup came only after you asked him to provide examples, so not really sure how else he could have reasonably done it.

I also agree with Pablito's point about players referencing their own metas as a defence. Obviously if you are aware of how you play as scum versus town, that basically makes any meta meaningless and unusable as a defence.

Disagree. Being aware of some differences in how you play as town v scum isn't the same thing as being able to change how you play. One example I can think of off the top of my head of someone saying this can be found here.

Considering we haven't even been threatened with a deadline, I'm not so certain that it's undesirable to be deadlocked right now.

You might want to take another look at the deadline rules.

HackerHuck doesn't worry me as much now, and even slips below bird in my suspicions (who really needs to post, by the way). I admit this isn't so much due to a dilligent reread but more just because I hardly remember anything bird has said.

[Patrick]

CTD, which meta do PJ's posts pretty clearly fit? From your lack of accusation I assume you're saying town, but I've never seen him playing anything like this as town, and he's been town in all my games with him.

[Patrick]

/answers roll call

I've been digesting the recent content and started a post about it, but my concentration span has pretty much given in for tonight, so I'll have to finish it over the weekend. As a preview, I too am starting to doubt elvis's scumminess; her posts over the last couple of pages read as very genuine to me. I'm also not especially swayed by any of the new cases that have been posted and will get to the specifics ASAP.

[Patrick]

Gonna have to apologise, but I feel like death warmed up and can't really think straight at all. I'm going to

unvote

.

Also can't wait to find out who Patrick's new top suspect is going to be.

I've actually been leaning back towards DGB again.

I'm also liking pablito more as town than before.

Unexplained statements, yay. I'll get straight back to this game when my head doesn't feel like it's full of wool.

[Patrick]

Regarding CDB: I don't see his unvote of elvis as actually inconsistent. The feeling I got when he voted elvis was that he thought elvis was a very good information giving lynch compared to DGB, and that pushed him towards voting her. I believe his later unvote and "I'm not here for the right reasons" refers to those reasons. I think CDB has more likely flaked rather than strategically lurking, and I agree he needs replacing, considering how little we have from that role. I wouldn't feel comfortable lynching him based on what I've seen - my only real issue with him is what I feel might have been attempts to defer responsibility to others when he voted elvis, but it's not really a big one.

Regarding elvis's case against MBL in 755: I think this reads way too much into a type of comment that really isn't that unusual. Town would have to be pretty daft to be actually "manipulated" by something like this into thinking better of MBL's alignment. (I find bluesoul's praise for this post to be weird, possible buddying here).

Pablito has been seeming more protown to me - his stance on elvis really makes more sense to me than it did before. I'm going to give CTD's comment about PJ's meta some weight because I don't think he'd say it lightly and because I really doubt CTD would have entered the game and declared that if pablito was a scumbuddy of his, but he could still just be town and wrong.

I feel less shitty now and will continue to catch up and comment on things tomorrow.

[Patrick]

Patrick:

Glad you're feeling better. LoS, please.

Heh. It's kind of funny how my suspects are dropping off this: elvis doesn't really seem scummy to me anymore, and HackerHuck and pablito seem borderline townish.

I've looked at elias again, and I just don't know what to think. I really wish he'd spend more time looking for scum, given that he's clearly able to spend the time defending himself and getting pissed off at people, but I've done some meta and I'm not sure it's that out of the ordinary; in open 19 as town he took a not caring type of attitude near the end when he was getting lynched, and I recall him mentioning several times that defence is a big part of his posting. Given his tone in other games, I'm not especially swayed by MBL's "he's calling people retarded not scummy" argument. One thing I'm not fond of is his response to HackerHuck in his last post. Much of elias's angst seems to come from being voted without being given anything to respond too and without people analysing what he says, and now HackerHuck has given him something to respond too, elias just seemed to dodge responding to it. Weird. He's slightly scummy in my book, but I feel better lynching DGB overall. I don't really have much to add to what I've already said about her; the main bit that makes me waffle over this vote is posts 291 and 293, which sounded kind of genuine to me and isn't something I've seen her do as scum before; I'm quite surprised that everyone seems to lean the opposite way to me on them. But. She seems a better bet to me than anyone else, at the moment.

Vote: DGB

.

CDB and Ether

, I know you guys are out there. I can't address the mod, so I address this to you, are you being replaced? Or working towards posting? I can live with either of those options at this point, but this continuing state of doing neither of them is just ridiculous. Especially when CDB isn't even voting.

I'm not feeling a bluesoul lynch. I see what CTD is saying about how he stayed off the elvis wagon but I just can't see it a big crime. The main thing I'd like from him now is to provide more specifics about it which he's apparently working on. His switch to finding elvis protown doesn't worry me, for the record. I think he's gotten somewhat lazy in the later part of the day, but I don't think it means much alignment wise because the same is true of most people, including me. I still have a mostly protown vibe from him.

CTD, I'm quite happy with. There's obviously a number of things we disagree on but I haven't seen anything that really sets off alarm bells, and I'm taking his attempts to analyse and get people talking at face value for now. There's also not really any of the opportunism I might expect from scum replacing into the game which has two large competing wagons; I guess I could see him as scum with elias and very pissed off with elias's lack of play, not really seeing him as being scum with elvis unless he's quite brave. Keeping an eye on him because I've seen him tricky as scum, but I'm satisfied with his entry to the game.

[Patrick]

HackerHuck: Regarding elvis's wagon falling away, CTD's entry caused me to take another look at her, and I decided many of the cases of "lashing out" came at times which I didn't see as all that beneficial for scum. Her vote for CDB, whilst I don't strongly agree with the case, seemed quite non-opportunistic at the time, and a weird move for scum who's under pressure, who might be expected to keep those not voting her happy, rather than voting them. The way she just attacked Ether seemed kind of genuine to me as well, you might see this as desperate scum lashing out, but I tend to expect desperate scum to go for people who already have votes and have a decent chance of actually being lynched. On reading other games of hers, my gut feeling against her disappeared because I think it's more likely just a by product of how she plays. This kind of break down of it is rather simplified, since she could be scum avoiding the wagons of buddies or whatever, but I'm just not feeling her scummy anymore. More a gut thing than logical, really, which is probably why this all sounds waffly, but there you go.

[Patrick]

Seems a bit of a stretch to call my previous opinion of pablito a strong one since he was only like 4th or 5th on my list, and he's never been the easiest of players to read.

[Patrick]

You were at me a lot before and always kept me in mind, and now you're only saying that I was 4th-5th on your list? To me it felt more like a 3rd if not 2nd.

I think a reread of my posts would tell a different story.

But you really seem like you want to see me better but a lot of the PJ stuff kept you back, or am I interpreting incorrectly? But really, if I am hard to read as you say, then why not continue suspecting me more heavily? Is it just that others are bumping themselves up on your list and therefore I'm falling down the list?

If anything, the opposite seems to be happening at the moment: I seem to have more people than usual falling towards the neutral and townie side and fewer suspects. I don't especially "want" to see you better, I just happen to do so, I guess. I've mentioned it because I tend to talk about it in thread when my opinion of something changes, maybe I'm misunderstanding that question though.

[Patrick]

He's certainly been consistent in his suspicion of DGB, but in restrospect, his detour onto the Elvis wagon seems somewhat off to me. Even as he was originally attacking DGB, he made a note that he didn't like the way or reason Elvis was attacking DGB, which on its own is fair enough. This was also part of the reason he switched to Elvis. Yet while he was on the Elvis wagon, he did a very similar thing casting doubt on HackerHuck's and CDB's reason for voting her, and it started smelling of a pattern to me. Preemtively casting a bad light on people on the same wagon as you smacks of preparing for the next day, and could indicate that Patrick was less interested in seeing his preferred lynch go through, and more interested in not looking bad (or as bad as others) when the lynch did go through.

I stated what I saw. If I see an issue with someone's reasoning, I'll point it out even if they're voting the same person as me, since I could obviously be wrong with my vote or I could be correct and they might be bussing. I don't really see why once is quite acceptable but twice suddenly makes it a pattern. Is there some specific problem with the observations I made?

He did mention that it's unusual for him to have so many people falling towards neutral or townie, and that he has fewer suspects. Fewer? It looks to me like he has exactly one suspect, which doesn't seem natural after 35 pages of play any way I look at it. What's the matter, Pat?

Well, I did actually say I'm reading elias as slightly scummy, so not exactly one suspect, no. I don't especially like having few suspects, but it happens from time to time, and I'm not unduly worried unless I start reading everyone as town or if it goes on for a significant stretch of time. Actually I'm surprised you're jumping on it only a couple of days after it's happened.

[Patrick]

The fact that you've been on two of three major wagons and added "buts" to both make it a possible pattern. There's no specific problem with the observations you've made, apart from the fact that they were all quite vague ("something about Elvis'/HackerHuck's/CDB's vote rubs me the wrong way" - paraphrased).

I'll refresh your memory on these. Elvis's was the vaguest, I just didn't especially like her reasons for joining the DBG wagon and wondered if her last post or two before voting were designed to trip DGB up. My issue with HackerHuck wasn't vague at all, I pretty clearly said that I didn't like his biggest reason for voting elvis, and that his change of stance from "elvis is unlikely scum" to elvis number 1 suspect seemed out of proportion to me. And my issue with CDB was that he seemed to defer responsibility to other elvis attackers when voting her. (I realise you've said you were only parahprasing, I typed this bit because I don't think you paraphrased me at all).

And I'm jumping on it now because I reread you now. I asked you for a LoS, and you basically responded by stating that you didn't have any, so I felt the need to reread you and I stated as much. Just because I didn't "jump on it" immediately doesn't mean I didn't have any issues with it, I just didn't feel like pointing it out before re-evaluating you in general.

That's not what I meant. It's clear that I've had a good number of suspects for the vast majority of the game, usually like 3 or 4. That's why I find it odd that you're jumping me the minute I'm only down to 2, rather than seeing if it continues as a trend.

You just being somewhat lazy in your scum-hunting? Perhaps.

This annoys me. I spent 3 hours on friday reading and expecting to make a post, but couldn't draw any conclusions I was particularly happy with. I spent a further 3 hours reading and compiling on saturday, and even then felt only ok about where I was. There're several people in this game who have been lazy, and I'm not one of them. So you can stop this right now. And yes, you could stop using outdated meta as well.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I know this is a pain to research and type out, so maybe you can do it off the top of your head. What's conflicting for you about pablito? The reason I ask is because I waver back and forth on pabs pretty much every time I read him.

You can see my problem then. Purely off the top of my head: I obviously didn't like the play of his predecessor. PJ's thoughts didn't jive with mine as much as usual; I remember not really seeing his bluesoul vote or his DGB vote, and I didn't particularly like how he went about attacking me - he defended elvis with something that was only superficially true (I think it was about how he claimed elvis has given an "additional reason" to vote DGB rather than parotting him, when in fact she hadn't really). His points against me seemed nitpicky and he generally came off more as trying to win the argument than really feeling me out or trying to see where I was coming from. Enough about his play bothered me that I wasn't going to completely write off as "PJ is losing interest in mafia" though I did factor it in. Pablito gave me better vibes on replacing in, but to be fair always seems to give me very convoluted protown vibes even as scum. On review I liked his treatment of elvis - some little interrogation of her and the fact he picked up on her frustrated vibes. On the other side of the spectrum, I still don't get his case against Ether at all. If anything I seem to change my mind a little depending on whether I think of pablito or PJ, but CTD's meta-claim about PJ does make me feel a little better there.

[Patrick]

CTD, like I said, it just seemed odd that you'd jumped me immediately for having few suspects, as it struck me as more important as a trend type of thing. Your concern about today is valid, but I don't understand your assertion that I haven't looked into other possible suspects. I looked at CDB, as some people seem to think he'd make a good lynch, but didn't find anything especially damning. I looked at bluesoul, since he was coming under some scrutiny. I looked at your play to decide how I felt, because I never did much on either of your predecessors. I looked at elvis's case against MBL. I looked at elvis, a player who I've found suspicious for much of the game, and changed my mind. I looked at pablito, who I've had some suspicions of. I posted (or have recently posted) my thoughts on the majority of the players in the game. What do you mean exactly when you say I haven't looked into any possible suspects aside from DGB and elias?

[Patrick]

@CTD, we might still be talking past each other, but let me fill in a few gaps that you mentioned.

You ask about Ether. Not a huge amount has changed since I last commented on her, because she hasn't said anything since. Her posts don't feel similar to her posts in Newbie 530, a game I played with her where she was scum, and which I found useful from a meta-perspective. Some of her posts give me a protown feeling and there isn't much in her posts that gives me cause for concern; what does worry me is the lack of content or interest in the game despite being around and having plenty of time to play. For that reason I don't have a clear protown read on her, and if she's around tomorrow and still being useless it needs looking into, since her reason seems to be boredom with day 1. Nevertheless I'm leaning town and am not interested in lynching her today. Would surprise me as a scumbuddy to elias.

I believe I actually did analyse CDB and I'm not sure how much deeper you expect me to go there - we have very little from that role and he obviously needs replacing, but I've talked about what I see as the most relevant points about him, and I talked about IH when he was around. If you want to debate some specific point about him or persuade me that my interpretation is unlikely, you're more than welcome. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy is scum, and if you held a gun to my head and asked me to name a #3, it would be him. But I don't think there's a case for lynching him based on what we've got here.

You're right that I haven't mentioned chamber - he hasn't caught my attention much this game and I've found him mostly neutral. I got some mild townvibes from some of his longer posts, especially the one about Sarcastro, and quite like his elvis vote even with my change of heart. I didn't like Post 422 nor the calling elvis scummy for her failure to claim.

The reason I do mind in your case is that you eliminated everyone else from consideration in your latest analysis, which proves that there's clearly something wrong with the read you have on this game, and it doesn't seem to bother you. And it's a statement that you won't be supporting any other wagons in the near future.

I see what you're saying, but I've never really approached a day 1 with a view to solving the whole game. It would be nice, obviously, but it's not something I beat myself up about, and I don't think it's an admission that there's something wrong with my read of the game. Take it as an admission that I'm incapable of finding all the scum as things stand if you like; I'm usually ok with my performance if I solidly nail one scum in a game, even though that in itself isn't enough to win (I'm only one part of a big team afterall). I'm not sure where to go from here; I certainly didn't eliminate everybody else from consideration, but maybe that's just semantics at this point.

Just to come back on something I missed from an earlier post, maybe I came across wrongly in my argument about drawing connections on day 1. I defended it because I saw elvis as attacking people for what seems like a difference in playstyle - and I think I've proven that it is just playstyle. Drawing connections is usually only a small part of my play on day 1 if I do it at all. I used to do it considerably more.

[Patrick]

elvis is more middling ground.

[Patrick]

1.) DGB - Despite dropping off the radar recently she's still been the most consistent to me. My position may be somewhat unique as most of the posts I find scummy reference me, so I'm naturally somewhat biased.

I'd like to hear more about this. You previously said DGB was looking significantly more protown to you; I'd still like to see some examples of protown moments from her and what caused her return to the top of your list.

[Patrick]

Bluesoul, I still want a response about your changing stance on DGB, because as it stands, it looks like a change solely with the momentum.

MBL, were you planning on following up your analysis from post 873? Your description of how you'd expect scum to behave if DGB is town seems to fit my play almost exactly, to the point where I wonder if it's catered, but you don't seem to have pressed this at all.

[Patrick]

I haven't actually looked, as I don't find it compelling.

[Patrick]

Replacements and a deadline. Cool.

Vote: elvis_knits because DGB has an excellent point on pablito. Also, this game needs more mindless bandwagon voting.

I don't see how the first sentence leads you to vote elvis. The second isn't good enough as a reason when we have a full 8 days left to decide on a lynch, and reminds me uncomfortably of the kind of stuff you did last time we played together, where you were scum.

If the first 39 pages were informative, why hasn't there been a lynch yet?

(1) Because we've been indecisive (2) We seem to have been waiting on content from people at various points, your predecessors included, and (3) The previous mod was slow taking action and didn't really enforce activity. None of this makes the game pointless to read.

MBL, can you summarise your case against CTD? At the moment all I see is that you think he's overconfident on one or two people.

I don't support the elvis wagon, DGB or elias (or really bluesoul or Xyl after the last few pages) would be better options IMO.

[Patrick]

Patrick, I don't actually want CTD lynched today. I wanted to apply some pressure to see how he reacted and see who would bite. But he's one of those players who contributes so much analysis that it'd be a huge loss to lynch him D1 if he's town, and if he's scum I have to have faith that we can bury him with his own words in the days to come. (Or an investigation.)

This is consistent with the attitude I've seen from you in other games. Let me rephrase the question: why do you find him scummy? Or do you actually not find him very scummy at all?

[Patrick]

Why is it that I'm the only one to ever vote this guy? It boggles my mind. Obviously, the sentiment is there to get something going on him, but seemingly no one wants to make the first move. Put your money where your mouths are and make it happen already.

I'm not voting him at the moment because he's not my preferred lynch. I do think he looks significantly worse for his evasiveness and sketchiness around DGB.

[Patrick]

Xyl, your vote for elias is terrible (at least, for the reasons you've stated). Being aggressive when defending oneself isn't inherently scummy, and I could name several people who defend themselves more aggressively when town. And that's even before we get to the part where you gloss over a meta which from what I've seen is fairly valid.

[Patrick]

* "Is elias's last-minute shift from DGB to pablito sincere, considering I forced his hand?"

I'm thinking it's a slight protown sign. In a situation of eliasscum/DGBtown, at least, I'd say elias would be more likely to stick to the biggest rival wagon rather than go after someone who doesn't have any votes. I don't see the part where you apparently forced him into this, can you point that out?

DGB softclaimed, and I'd rather not lynch her. I pressed it as much as I could and it wasn't going anywhere. I'm not getting the claim that would make that decision easier. (Ask yourself if you'd vote DGB on the spot if she claimed anything besides vig, doc, cop, rb, tracker, which she would have to as scum.) Her play is disastrously scummy (zero scumhunting on her #1 target, for example) but that softclaim is eating at my brain and changing my vibe on her. We'd get a modest amount of info from a DGB lynch, tempered by the fact that she's so damned weird.

Ok, I'm not sure how much I want to talk about this, but at this point, I'll say that I disagree with these thoughts. When was the last time you read DBG's posts around the softclaim? I just really don't see why she has to be a powerole if she's town. In case it's not obvious though, I support a claim too, and have done for ages. I think it would help alot.

More to come later tonight, hopefully. I keep wavering too, reading some more on other suspects.

[Patrick]

I don't get the Lowell wagon. I don't remember elias or MBL expressing any serious suspicions of Ether, and this doesn't strike me as the time for pressure wagons. Wassup with those votes?

[Patrick]

Morning. My initial feeling is that bluesoul's behaviour around DGB looks even worse now that we know DGB was scum; and I absolutely don't want to see any more dodging enquiries from him today. I'm also somewhat suspicious of Xyl. I'm going to reread as much as possible when it isn't half past 3 in the morning, should be plenty of interesting interactions.

Also, 4 mafia and 1 SK is pretty much out of the question for a mini game.

[Patrick]

Quick check in again, I tend to believe the claim as well. If he's scum, he won't go far with it.

Patrick repeatedly defended Ether citing a good meta on her.

I defended a player who seems likely to be protown. Why is that an issue?

Scummier than attacking me or trying to connect me to PJ is a refusal to admit he was doing it

You really need to get over this.

Free tomorrow, should be able to do some rereading.

[Patrick]

You defended a player YOU said you thought was likely to be pro-town. I don't agree that Ether's behavior was pro-town. And your defense of her seems a lot like you were buddying up to her.

Don't give me this bullshit. Ether and I have alot of experience playing with each other, and in the past few games we've both been very successful in determining each other's alignments. Her play here was more consistent with how she plays as town than as scum; for all the crap that people have said about her, the only valid point is that she lost interest in the game for no obvious reason. I doubt it's a coincidence that she read me as town too. It's quite obvious you're just grasping for something to use against me: if Ether is scum then I defended scum, if she's town I was buddying up. Try to keep your arguments realistic, TIA.

Explain why you unvoted her when she made her first scummy soft claim

I didn't unvote her because of the soft claim, I unvoted her because she sounded genuine to me in those few posts. That was in fact the main reason that had me doubting my vote towards the end of the day, and I said as much.

why you were so eager to unvote her when she was L-1 and she offered a completely reguritated case on me. You jumped ship awfully quickly there.

Hmm. I remember explaining that as well. I didn't like DGB's lurking nor her softclaim, the fact that she came back and analysed stuff got rid of the first problem, and your play at that point smelled terrible. I didn't vote you because of any of the points she herself brought up.

And yes, I was waffly about DGB's alignment all day. She's a tough player to read; my gut feeling from a couple of her frustrated posts was that she might be town just playing horribly, but I left my vote on her because of her opportunism, poor suspicions and softclaim. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Patrick]

Also, you are saying DBG's analysis of me didn't influence you?

It wasn't the points she made in her analysis against you that caused me to switch, it was the fact that she'd posted an analysis at all. (It turns out Ether switched for the same reason, though I misunderstood her the first time).

I didn't like the persistant refusal to claim. Eventually I decided if she was town she was more likely vanilla than a powerole, simply because I couldn't think of a powerole that would be better off dead than outed.

As I've said already, posts 291 and 293 sounded genuine to me.

[Patrick]

DGB's 291 and 293 seem like poor sportsmanship, emotional appeal, obnoxious manipulative stuff. I guess it could be seen as townie anger and implosion.

Well, obviously I know what they were now, lol. I think MBL agreed with me about those posts and pretty much everyone else saw them as lame at best, scummy at worst.

DGB's analysis was fairly heavily centred around you and connecting/ disassociating people to you. That kind of analysis is rather narrow but often seen coming from stubborn townies who get carried away with theories and become convinced someone is scum. The issue is more whether I think analysis is genuine or not, rather than whether I agree with it. I saw it as a far better scumhunting effort than anything she'd done up until then, and her explanation for why she'd been away was plausible to me.

Especially considering your position that you didn't like her soft claim and her persistent refusal to full claim? Merely posting an analysis seems like a drop in the bucket considering the other serious problems you had with her.

It only dropped her one place on my list, it's not like I suddenly decided she was town. Do you find that position reasonable? Because pablito unvoted DGB in the post directly after for reasons which seemed at least partly to do with DGB posting analysis as well, and I notice you just glossed over that and said he's town.

[Patrick]

MBL was scum, remember?

Quite. I was just pointing out the stands I remembered regarding that. I suspect MBL was genuine in his uncertainty about DGB there, but we won't know that until postgame.

How do you judge if it's genuine or not without judging if you agree with it?

I agreed with some points and disagreed with others. Like, I agreed about Ether and MBL, and agreed that PJ and you were scummy, didn't agree so much that bluesoul and OGML were scummy.

Feel free to argue what you don't like about this post. I think some of it isn't so great regarding DGB. In a way it echoes some of your feelings, which I don't like.

No, I'm not saying I have a problem with him, I'm saying you don't seem especially consistent between how you analyse me there and how you analysed him.

Although coming off MBL giving a *standing ovation* and you unvoting DGB, I don't think it mattered too much what Pablito did. The wagon was dying.

Hmm. You feel that scum are more likely to come off a wagon when it's big rather than when it's dying?

[Patrick]

XYL has been kicking ass since coming into the game. I appreciate the cutthroat style, but I have too many issues with CDB.

Can you elaborate on this? I ask because most of the stuff you said about him yesterday was critisism, and when I reread him what sticks out most to me is that he seemed to try to deflect the lynch away from DGB whilst keeping the option in hand to vote her, which he did after she self-destructed.

[Patrick]

Looking back I'm not keen on OGML's post either. Stating a willingess to hammer someone based solely on a claim is potentially a convenient way to bus someone who he hasn't expressed any suspicion of all game. He never did get round to explaining his (PJ, Ether, Sarcastro) theory which I find notable because all 3 of those were voting DGB at the time, which you might think would cause him at least a little concern, on top of my involvement (since he didn't seem to like me either).

I officially hate how long day 1 lasted; still trying to work my way through it. I feel pretty good about Lowell, elvis, Crash being town based on what I've read and what's happened so far today. Bluesoul is a very mixed bag, HackerHuck/Xyl looks plausible to me so far.

[Patrick]

I'm not entirely sure why that would make you more suspicious of him. Alot of people try to keep their town and scum play similar because they want to be unreadable; you can argue that's a mistaken policy, but that hardly seems relevant to his alignment here. Or are you saying that's something he's made up for this game only?

[Patrick]

I think he's a mixed bag: at the start of today I saw him as scummy for his behaviour later in the day where he backed off DGB then had her as his top suspect seemingly just because interest in her picked up again; whilst I can understand being unsure about her, he's been very evasive when asked to explain it and to this point I still don't know what he thought her more protown moments were. On looking back at the earlier parts of the game, I notice he was fairly eager to try to link both me and Ether to DGB despite apparently not going after scum pairings on day 1, but his interactions and vote for DGB looks very genuine, and he voted her before it became truly popular. So I'm unsure, but there's at least two people (Xylthixlm and HackerHuck) who I'm more interested in.

Because even CTD, who was all over bluesoul yesterday does not seem very suspicious of him at this point.

This seems untrue, based on the following:

Combine all of the above, and I still like bluesoul as scum as of this point in the reread, his seemingly solid involvement in the first DGB wagon notwithstanding.

[Patrick]

I'm suspicious of everyone, all the time, unless I say otherwise.

Sure, the point is that you specifically mentioned those players, which implies some greater interest in them, or some reason to see them as paired.

I'm working on some more detailed thoughts on people myself, should have them up tomorrow, since I have a day off work.

[Patrick]

Here are some thoughts on every player, in no particular order.

Lowell

: Ether looked like town to me and I've never seen a mafiate claim vig. There's a small chance that he's lying scum, but I'm not feeling it.

CrashTextDummie

: For some reason the only thought that ever seems to enter my head when trying to read Sarcastro is meh. I don't give him much credit for his unreasoned DGB vote and for sitting on her thereafter, as I can easily imagine him busing DGB as hard as possible. That said, I don't see why it's being critisised as seriously scummy either. Bird looks alright to me: not bad reasons for voting DGB and he did so when she certainly wasn't close to being a leader.

One thing I've noticed about CTD himself is that he named DGB as a suspect but actually spent more time indirectly defending her than attacking her, which is a very plausible way to treat a scumbuddy. However, if he is scum who wanted to subtly protect DGB, he chose a very odd way of going about it on entering the game, since he didn't latch onto either of the leading bandwagons, which would have been the most obvious way to protect DGB, instead trying to start one from scratch on bluesoul. This evaluation isn't perfect, since there's prolly two scum out there still, but the entry still gives me a protown vibe. Even with the indirect defence of DGB, his interrogation and later read of me strikes me as protownish as well. Not as confident with him as I am with Lowell, but I'm leaning town.

Xylthixlm

: I've already commented a fair bit on his predecessors, and don't have alot to add at the moment, except to note that IH FoSed bluesoul and expressed suspicion of him most of his life but never voted. His stated reason for that in Post 110 was "there is probably quite a wagon on MBL/Bluesoul." which doesn't really make sense; there's a votecount at the top of the page, and even if it didn't exist at the time, there was one on the previous page. Could be a slight connection between the two of them. My main problem with Xylthixlm is that I don't like any of the votes he's placed so far and it feels like he was trying to deflect the DGB lynch at the end of the day whilst still leaving himself room to vote her, which is fairly common scum behaviour around a partner, and certainly something I've seen him doing before as scum. The guarantee that he'll hammer DGB if she reaches lynch-1 before she claims is pretty consistent with that theme, and I don't particularly like the first line of Post 1329 either. I don't have anything big in his favour to counteract any of this, so I'm pretty suspicious of him.

HackerHuck

: I haven't too much to say about OGML, except for the post CTD brought up already. Offering to hammer DGB because she might be a supersaint (and he even says he finds it unlikely) isn't especially consistent with what I'd expect from a townie, especially from a townie who has some paranoid theory about three of the people on DGB (that's Ether, PJ and Sarcastro for a reminder). It could be a scum way to bus a partner in trouble.

HackerHuck's play bothers me quite alot. His opening post is pretty light on DGB and I'm not sure how neutral/leaning town followed on from his comments about her. His reasons for suspecting/planning to hammer elvis bothered me as I've noted already, probably moreso now that I don't think elvis is likely scum anymore. The kind of mild but not strongly commital protown read he has on DGB all his life would fit for being partners, and his accusation in Post 1216 that CTD hasn't thoroughly analysed DGB seems rather hypocritical. And although CTD has touched on this already, I don't like his slight increase in suspicion of DGB in that post either: "odd flip-flopping on MBL" is a very soft reason given that DGB's been flip-flopping all game and it doesn't seem to have bothered him. Overall I have quite a few issues with his play, and he seems to be flit under the radar a fair bit; I could easily see him as scum who's been trying to stay out of major trouble. Suspect.

elvis_knits

: In general I agree with the comments that she's not likely partnered to DGB; there's alot of friction between them that sounds genuine, more than I'd expect from two scum distancing/busing. Post 722 by DGB seems like an odd move to make if elvis is scum with her, unless elias is also scum. The only real issue I have is the way she blamed MBL for the dissolution of the DGB wagon, which isn't a problem in itself, but doesn't seem quite consistent when she wasn't voting DGB either, and in fact took detours onto me, MBL then CDB. I still don't agree with the Lowell vote late in the day, but the timing of the revote on DGB looks legit enough to make up for that. I hate her play today but it reads very genuine to me; not seeing her as scum.

bluesoul

: Many of my thoughts on bluesoul can be found in my last post about him today. Coming into today with his recent sketchiness fresh in my mind, I was very suspicious of him, but his earlier play looks better, and I also think the suggestion of a massclaim is slightly more likely to be suggested by town (hunch). I still have some doubts about him, but he's now middling for me rather than scummy.

elias_the_thief

: Interactions-wise, his main suspicion and vote for most of day 1 was DGB. His points against her were fairly obvious but not bad, and he voted her when elvis was an easier alternative, which seems protownish unless elvis is scum. I'd still like a reason for why he switched to Lowell late in the day though. He looks ok to me overall though.

pablito

: PJ's vote on DGB is solid enough if unspectacular, and there's no other vote after that to comment on from him. I still like pablito's treatment of elvis but I'm not wild about his treatment of elias, it seems like he's reaching in places. The pablito/elias argument is really making my eyes bleed, so at this point I'm going to give up on that before I get too drowsy to think at all. It'll likely be friday at the earliest before I get a chance, but for now, I don't think badly of pablito.


Scummy: HackerHuck, Xylthixlm. Townish: Lowell, elvis, CTD. The other three are drifting around in my middling ground depending on what I get out of the elias/pablito thing and on other's alignments. I can see HackerHuck and Xylthixlm as scum together though that's mostly based on individual play rather than a strong connection. Previously I saw a possible IH/bluesoul connection but lately I've been beginning to doubt that. Not really seeing HackerHuck and bluesoul as scumbuddies; whilst I can easily see HackerHuck as scum reading DGB as mildly protown, his strong and consistent protown read on bluesoul is less common between two scum, and would require HackerHuck to be defending both his partners consistently, which is fairly uncommon. One more relationship I want to comment on - one or two people have suggested pablito and elias are scumbuddies. It doesn't seem very likely to me. It requires elias to be playing a very heavy busing game, as I disagree with the notion that he's trying to persuade people not to vote pablito.

Vote: HackerHuck

. I feel pretty good about this, especially after his responses.

Nobody bothered to comment on my proposal to massclaim.

It's worth thinking about. We likely have alot of power if the setup is 3 mafia/1 SK, so it's possible a massclaim would squeeze scum enough to force a win or nearly force a win. Of course, it's hard to judge since we don't know what claims will come up. As of right now I'd rather we carry on with traditional scumhunting and get everybody on record about their suspicions.

[Patrick]

Are you reading HackerHuck as scummier than elias, or still reading elias as scummier but switching because HackerHuck has more votes?

[Patrick]

However, I found a lot of interesting things with Patrick in the DGB wagon, and he was never replaced, so I think I could go with a Patrick vote with ease at this point. The things I found about Patrick were subtle and could only be discerned knowing that DGB is scum. I think I outlined them in a post earlier today.

What does a lack of being replaced have to do with anything?

Looking at your huge posts, I see you talking about how I unvoted DGB a couple of times but also how I built up the wagon, and you concluded by calling me a question mark. I don't actually see many instances at all of you calling my behaviour scummy or giving reasons for it; or at least, it's hard to tell what bothers you and what's just commentary. Please elaborate.

And with Xyl, hmm. The hammer is a bonus

Huh?

[Patrick]

From memory, what I remembered from my analysis posts in D2 was that Patrick derailed significantly from the DGB wagon. That's what really stuck in my mind. So while I was a question mark at that time, I put you third on my suspicion list right now. But really, what always matters most to me on my suspicion list is who I've taken out of the equation. Everyone else kinda filters up and down on occasion.

This is still vague. Everyone in the game derailed or detracted or defended DGB at least once; in your case I can remember like 3 occasions and that's without even rereading. What I'm asking is what you find to be suspicious behaviour on my part.

[Patrick]

While we're at it, can someone give me someone else they'd like to see dead, and why? It'll help me out.

If HackerHuck is lynched today, I'd go with Xyl regardless of HackerHuck's alignment.

[Patrick]

Is there a significant downside to Lowell telling us who's being killed tonight? Because I can think of a couple of advantages.

[Patrick]

I have a hard time believing that if HackerHuck turns up scum, you see me as the best bet for a partner of his.

Patrick could be a worthwhile vig anyway because he could be hiding his relations with others really well.

What's that supposed to mean?

If Lowell discloses, scum could target someone else if they were both going to aim at who Lowell says.

This seems like a kind of trifling objection to me. Assuming Lowell is a vig, is it really that likely the vig target and the scum target was going to coincide?

Mafia doctors are not unheard-of.

This is an even more trifling objection. Mafia doctors are rare, and unless this mafia doctor could self-protect, it'd presumably be protecting it's partner either way.

I think declaring the target is better because it gives the target a chance to claim, and it means poweroles can plan around the kill. Those seems more important to me than the above two quotes.

[Patrick]

It mostly seems like Patrick is afraid of being vigged, so that's why he wants to know who the target is.

It mostly seems like elvis will try to read something bad into absolutely everything Patrick says. Btw, is not wanting to be vigged scummy?

I see another downside to lowell declaring: depending on the target's allignment, scum may choose to kill lowell or not.

I don't understand this. I've always seen it as a vigs kill goes through even if the vig is themselves nightkilled.

Also, those who say "regardless of HH alignment" when suggesting kills make no sense to me.

Well, those that do fuck all just because they're near confirmed innocent make no sense to me either, but let me explain: I think that after HackerHuck, Xylthixlm is far and away the scummiest player in the game. HackerHuck being town or scum doesn't change that. I'm not sure what "makes no sense" to you about that.

[Patrick]

I would have been sceptical of a powerole claim because then OGML's post offering to hammer a potential supersaint would have made even less sense to me. But I don't think a vanilla claim is enough to let him off.

HackerHuck, since you haven't really defended yourself, let me ask you in question form: what did you find scummy about DGB's late flip-flopping on MBL? What about that was worse than previous flip flops in the game? (which I don't remember you commenting on).

[Patrick]

Yeah, I agree with massclaiming now.

[Patrick]

If I had to shotgun a scumteam right now, I think it would be Xyl/pablito. I'd rather one of those goes first.

[Patrick]

Looks like that's out of the window.

[Patrick]

Pabs, just to be clear, are you just a vanilla who's unable to hammer people? Or do you have some ability? What would happen if you hammer someone?

[Patrick]

Fascinating.

I'm Seol, tracker. My choices:

Night 1: Xyl going nowhere
Night 2: pablito targetting Lowell

So obviously, pablito is lying scum.

Vote: pablito

I'm rushed as I'm going to work soon, but when I get home I'll try to do some rereading to look for a second scum - as I do think we likely have two left. Nobody put pablito at lynch-1, since he can self-hammer. In the meantime, Xyl might as well claim.

[Patrick]

Thanks for not forcing me to claim immediately after you. That would have spoiled the whole thing.

[Patrick]

I believe bluesoul's claim. If he's scum, that leaves us with 3 mafiates and 1 SK versus a town with only a tracker and one shot vig. Wouldn't make sense.

I'm not entirely sold on Xyl's innocence; if bluesoul hadn't claimed a result on him, he'd have been by far my most likely pick for a second scum. He's certainly given me the scummiest vibes and pablito has been pretty lenient/wishy washy on that role all game. Godfathers that show up without guns certainly exist. If pablito turns out to be some kind of GF role though, I think we can cross Xyl off the list. I'll have to reread with the knowledge that PJ/pablito is scum, but I feel pretty good about elvis being town. CTD has given me a generally town vibe all game, and has been somewhat bold in his defence of PJ. Elias seems to post alot more to defend himself than to look for scum, but went hard after both DGB and pablito. So really, all of those 4 have a reason for me to think they're town. I'm most confident in elvis being town of the 4 atm. Of course, they could possibly all be town and pablito's lynch will end the game, but 3 person mafias are more common in minis.

After preview: CTD, you think a setup with bluesoul as scum works from a balance perspective? I mean, I know people have different ideas about balance, but that seems really excessive.

[Patrick]

Meh. Another rushed post.

I don't care what's going on with the usernames and Rosso. I got the role name, and that's what it is. I feel that based on interactions with DGB, it should be clear that Patrick is scummier and that my intentions should look more genuine when dealing with DGB.

Interesting that you'd say this since I think anyone reading the interactions should feel the opposite. So pabs, humour me and tell us what you pretend to think looks so genuine about your interactions with DGB. You consistently kept some suspicion of her whilst pushing elsewhere; you were a big part of keeping elias in the limelight on day 1 over DGB, and for largely crap reasons.

I also see Tracker + one shot vig + gunsmith as being too powerful (especially if only two mafia), but I see priest + gunsmith + one shot vig as making more sense as I'm not even a "power role" more of a mafia benefit with me around. I'm not 100% on the gunsmith claim, but in terms of balance, I'm more inclined to believe bluesoul than Patrick.

This is bullshit. Balance strongly dictates that my role exists. Games with 3 mafia and 1 SK (which is the obvious leaning) tend to have 4 protown poweroles in, and that's kind of what I was expecting here (virtually all the games with 3 mafia/1SK that I've seen follow this rule, including one modded by you, pablito). Two investigative roles fits perfectly fine, especially if a Godfather does exist, or if you really do have the ability to fail a hammer. Actually I don't understand where the whole, "two investigate roles would be unfair" sentiment comes from.

Pablito is still kicking, and it is possible he really can fail a hammer. I feel it should be blindingly obvious that I'm town here and it shouldn't make any difference; largely because whatever CTD and pablito say, the setup makes no sense if I'm scum (note that if I'm scum I'd have to have a buddy alive), and that false claiming tracker would be a huge risk on my part unless you think Xyl is my buddy, because I'd be taking the risk that he was a powerole and contradicted me.

More after work, but I think if you look at what you're required to believe for pablito to be town, it should be obvious that he isn't.

[Patrick]

And just quickly during break, bluesoul, yes, I'm happy for us to both target the same person, presumably whoever we decide is most likely to be scum. Choosing Xyl doesn't make much sense as you've already checked him, so I'd say one of CTD or elias atm. Hopefully today should help choose.

[Patrick]

Previously I didn't think so, but his bravado kind of worries me I have to admit. Eh, maybe he's just bluffing in the hope we put him to -1 quickly and he can cut off discussion. A lack of ability to hammer is so rare as a quirk anyway, so I don't see any compelling reason why he couldn't have it as the scumbag that he is.

[Patrick]

I'm about to go off to class and will likely be unavailable for the rest of the night, but I'm a bit pissed that you guys would think that even if I prove my role (of which it is confirmable), that you would still fathom lynching me rather than taking out proven scum Patrick. Imagine lynching me as town, Patrick giving you tomorrow a result of his "tracking" and then muddling up any logic that the town has built up. Take out Patrick now, and we can focus ourselves further on finding his partner and how he's acting now

This is empty rhetoric. You can easily have the ability you're claiming to have as scum. Why would it make you town suddenly? How would I be "proven scum"? I don't see any argument here, you're just asserting that you'd be confirmed town. Also, what are you talking about when you say I'd be "muddling up any logic the town has built up tomorrow"? In the impossible event that you're lynched as town, I'd be lynched tomorrow no questions asked.

There is no reason why I would fake claim this role. And furthermore, I would not think that a mafia priest (as some have suggested) would even make sense in this layout.

Two obvious possibilities:

1) You don't have the quirk you claim to have, and you just claimed carelessly. I could see you overlooking it or being drunk.
2) You do have the quirk you claim to have, and you're claiming it in the hope that people will see you as confirmed.

I'm not trying to cut off discussion. I know that the lynch won't go through and I want to confirm myself as soon as I can.

I don't think this day has to go for ages, but for now I think we're still productive and carrying on will help. I can imagine you asking to be put at lynch-1 quickly so you can cut that off. I guess we'll see.

[Patrick]

It's not really cumbersome as a scum quirk. By endgame, the scum would have probably claimed that quirk and people would be aware of it. Asking someone else to unvote wouldn't really seem weird.

[Patrick]

That's crap reasoning. By that late stage, a massclaim is almost certain to have taken place. (People tend to massclaim in lylo, and people tend to massclaim when there's only one scum left. The previous day would be one of those). Even if the scum hasn't roleclaimed at all, then it can probably use it's status as "confirmed innocent" in the endgame to force a townie to unvote by making something up as a roleclaim.

[Patrick]

If Pablito hammers himself and fails, I'm prepared to lynch Patrick. Being unable to hammer seems like a potentially debilitating "power" to give scum, as it robs them of the ability to quicklynch in certain scenarios. Patrick's argument to the contrary in his last two posts seems kind of sketchy to me, but it's understandable if he's town having to argue something he knows is correct.

Simply repeating that it would be a debilitating power for scum does not make it so. If pablito does hammer and not die, I want you to explain what exactly is sketchy rather than just vaguely going along with someone elses bad argument. I've found your play today rather disconcerting, starting with the immediate skeptsism of bluesoul's claim - it's kind of hard to believe your sense of balance could be that poor. Of course, if pablito really does get lynched by his own hand, this quote means little. We'll see.

To coordinate with bluesoul, I'll also target elias tonight; he's probably one of the more likely candidates. If pablito kills himself and I'm killed overnight, I'd recommend lynching CTD if elias turns up clean, then lynching either elias or Xyl if CTD is town. I feel that bluesoul is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.

[Patrick]

Unvote

[Patrick]

Vote: pablito

. Maybe that works.

[Patrick]

Hmm. Now I want those making sketchy arguments (hi CTD) and doing partial analysis to explain themselves. I don't see how pablito's thing is a crippling penalty for scum at all. On the contrary, it seems like it helps if proving it adds to his credibility. I've already explained why the "he wouldn't be able to quicklynch" thing wouldn't particularly matter once the quirk has been claimed.

I can only reiterate that if I was scum the balance of this setup would be completely broken: presumably 3 mafia and 1 SK versus a gunsmith and a one shot vig as the only real town power. Is that really likely to exist in an invitational? For the record, shea's only other mini normal game had 4 protown poweroles versus 1 SK and only 2 mafia. Think, people. I know it was a while ago, but that setup is so far away from what would be required here for me to be scum.

Also, a fakeclaim from me would be an appalling play for scum. I feel like Xyl especially could appreciate that if he's town, since if I was scum, I'd take a big risk that Xyl held a powerole and would have simply contradicted me. And even beyond that, the best I'd be hoping for would be to trade myself in for a crappy town role.

[Patrick]

For that latest jerk move in that last post - the revote, vote: patrick. I'll be back later - when I'm in better mind and not so angry at Patrick that I go overboard in my discussion of him.

What jerk move? We're obviously aligned differently, why would it make you angry that I want you dead? This sounds so fake, but I suppose that's easier for me to see.

[Patrick]

Oh joy. Well, pablito was scum. Good luck town.

[Patrick]

No rule against twilight talking, so: I feel slightly better about Xyl after that, though I suppose that's kind of reflexive. I actually expected him to kind of stay noncommital and then move onto me if the tide was turning against me. I feel like probably pablito's buddy is elias or CTD, and that one of them was trying to take advantage of pablito's quirk to obtain a mislynch on me. Can't really see pablito as a GF after the ability he proved, but if he is, treat any "no gun" results as cleared, would be my advice.

[Patrick]

Boy does it feel good

Elias visited bluesoul's house last night.

Vote: elias_the_scum

[Patrick]

I'm happy with this game. Interesting how we actually had most of the scum under pressure on day 1 and our choice of lynch seemed to be mostly between two of them. I was getting extremely lazy by the end of it and maybe that helped me -- stopped me second guessing myself even more about DGB. I was elated when I got the result that meant pablito was likely scum, then as soon as Xyl posted I immediately became very worried that pablito would actually be able to back up his claimed ability and that I'd get lynched. Really grateful that Xyl just put pablito away immediately.

I think the setup is slightly rough on the town, and even rougher on the SK; I'd give partial NK immunity there. I like the flavour, always better than just getting the role and nothing else.

Thanks to all for the game, there was some decent scumhunting, especially from MBL, though I don't really understand his strategy as an SK; seems like his play was always going to make him a likely nightkill. I'd have been spooked if he'd been mafia, he looked to be looking for scum so genuinely, lol.

[Patrick]

The HackerHuck lynch wasn't bad, though I suppose we should have given him more time, given his real life distraction. Elias was the main other guy who I considered tracking night 2, but pablito's attack on me late in the day left a bad taste in the mouth and I saw him as an unlikely vig target. I was kind of afraid I'd get vigged actually.