Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[elvis_knits]

FINALLY

vote MrBuddyLee

[elvis_knits]

I'd be interested to hear his specific motivations.

I am not.

[elvis_knits]

Ether, why e_k?

Stifling discussion. She picked on the most boring, dismissable part of your analysis--the first semblance of content in the game--and dismissed it.

Maybe it was a bit stifling to discussion, which I agree sucks. But MBL was asking Patrick for his voting motivations on a vote he made in the first post of the game. It doesn't seem like a big explanation is really possible there.

Also, MBL seemes a little PO'ed, and I was trying to be more obnoxious.

[elvis_knits]

e_k, are you thinking that Patrick's choice of a D1 bandwagon target was random? Cause I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

I thought it was random. Or maybe a love-tap.

Why do you think it wasn't random? And what do you think the reason is? People hate you? I wasn't aware of that.

[elvis_knits]

EBWODP: More to the point, the three that haven't posted are more keenly aware of an MBL connection

right out of the gate

, we don't get anything that hasn't been altered or skewed by the possibility of this connection.

But for them to be wary of connecting themselves to MBL, they would have to be scum and KNOW that MBL is actually scum.

Bluesoul, do you think MBL is scum?

[elvis_knits]

Patrick... MBL thinks you had ulterior motives to starting bandwagon on him. You have never addressed these concerns. Explain.

[elvis_knits]

And that makes you want to vote me?

[elvis_knits]

You managed to butter up three people in the game with a single post.

I agree. Also, no matter how much you like certain player it should have no bearing on whether you think they're scum or not.

unvote; vote DGB

[elvis_knits]

In more recent news,

unvote; vote: elvis_knits

for her non-sequitur stupid question in 68, which she'd already previously attacked as a stupid question in 15, and is directed toward the person who'd foreshadowed suspicion on her since her last post. Not much else she's done, either. We should kill her.

As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.

Not understanding why my behavior there is scummy.

[elvis_knits]

I wasn't buying into what PJ was saying. Indepentently, I had the same reaction when reading your post. It was a bit too lovey-dovey for the DGB I know! This is not a love-fest! Where is the firing squad?

(I do <3 you though).

[elvis_knits]

I'm ignoring the meat of that game? What would you like me to comment on?

[elvis_knits]

I didn't realize I was being that derilect...

I guess I haven't said that much on those things because I am undecided on what any of it means. I chose to question you further because it is the issue I am most directly involved in, and have a better grasp of. But it's not like I haven't commented on anything, and it's not like everyone else in the game has commented about every one of those things. So I think you're being oversensitive to my actions.

I'll try to comment more though, if it will make you feel better about me. Beginning at the beginning!

Patrick suggests a bold strategy out of the gate, and one he knows will probably gain traction. I'd be interested to hear his specific motivations.

Sarc voting Ether and then finding safe harbor in the fourth spot on a bandwagon when the

third

spot wasn't at all appealing to him.

PJ following along merrily with unknown quantities elvis and Patrick.

DGB avoiding the MBL wagon after she ruthlessly butchered me in the first 5 minutes of Space Monkeys II.

Bluesoul curiously hesitant to put a second vote on chamber, chooses to OMGUS DGB by proxy instead.

OGML also avoids the MBL wagon and hits Sarc with an appropriate vote.

Elias is the only one of you I'm not familiar with. I'd probably vote for Sarc now, but I don't want a competing wagon... yet.

vote: Elias_the_thief

It's recap of events taken from MBL's pov. It's a bit martyr-like, and throws as much suspicion around as possible. Suspicion on those for wagoning, and suspicion on those for not wagonning. And then voting none of the people he has thrown suspicion on, which seems like an odd choice.

I would think he would choose one of the people he is suspicious of. If he doesn't choose one of them, I have to assume he is either 1)not serious in his accusations or 2)afraid to get in trouble (or OMGUS) and feels it easier to take a random vote on elias.

[elvis_knits]

As for Bluesoul... I think the wagon built because of this:

I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB

I think it was obvious what three players he was referring to, as he names them in the post. So that was not confusing or significant to me.

But I did find it significant that for anyone to be wary of connecting themselves to MBL, that the player would have to be scum and be scum with MBL. (I did post about this, BTW). To me, it doesn't seem like something that anyone would really need worry about, so it was weird that bluesoul did. Weird in the way of maybe knowing that MBL or one of the other three players really was mafia. Which in turn would make bluesoul mafia.

I feel I am just rambling here...

Probably why I didn't say it before.

It felt a little too convoluted for me to vote him for bluesoul. And I think it was probably just humor that can look scummy when overanalyzed.

[elvis_knits]

As to the bluesoul/sarcastro link, I would highly doubt they were scum buddies. Sarc does try to "explain" bluesoul's post that everyone was questioning, but that does not make me think they are scum buddies.

1)Sarc's explanation of bluesoul's post was in response to MBL's misreading and not understanding which three players bluesoul was referring to. It seem reasonable that anyone would know what three players, and natural for Sarc to try to explain what was obvious.

2)I don't see a lot of scum buddies defending each other in such an obvious way, when they don't even really have to.

[elvis_knits]

Side note:

Following on last post, the way MBL misunderstood bluesoul doesn't seem reasonable to me. He only quotes bluesoul partially, since that is the only way it is possible to misunderstand him. I smell something amiss in the way he only partially quotes bluesoul.

Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got

three

players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB

Is it

three

players because you know I'm not scum and therefore the likely three mafia in this game are watching me cautiously?

unvote, vote: bluesoul

Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL.

I'm going back to him.

unvote; vote MrBuddyLee

[elvis_knits]

I still think my conclusion was just as logical or more so than the standard conclusion, and I defintiely didn't intentionally misconstrue:

Following on last post, the way MBL misunderstood bluesoul doesn't seem reasonable to me.

He only quotes bluesoul partially, since that is the only way it is possible to misunderstand him.

I smell something amiss in the way he only partially quotes bluesoul.

Patrick, now that you have forced me to pay more attention to this game I am realizing how much I don't like MBL.

I'm going back to him.

unvote; vote MrBuddyLee

Here's bluesoul's full post:

I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB

It doesn't say "think about their

first

posts". Therefore, the obvious conclusion to draw, regardless of bluesoul's first sentence, is that he is talking about the three people who would benefit from thinking about their posts in the context of "MBLscum in trouble"--that is, the three scum. It just doesn't ring true. I don't see proportionality in the concern here.

But the point is you snipped bluesoul's post. You deleted the one sentence that explains who the three people are. This crucial part of info was not even in a different paragraph. It was directly before the portion you quoted, and directly connected.

Why did you snip the quote?

If your conclusion is still valid whether or not you snipped the post, why did you choose to snip?

[elvis_knits]

OMG

Sarcastro is the Master.

He has caught scum on Day 1, as evidenced by MBL's smarmy squirming.

Twelve players, seven to lynch, he has four votes already. I'm tempted to put him at five but not until we've had more discussion to help us nail his buddies.

I don't think this is "hampering the town's efforts."

She didn't really add anything to the discussion though, even though she says she wants more discussion.

[elvis_knits]

Ether, did you read this? If so, why do you still have a problem with the question I asked Patrick?

In more recent news,

unvote; vote: elvis_knits

for her non-sequitur stupid question in 68, which she'd already previously attacked as a stupid question in 15, and is directed toward the person who'd foreshadowed suspicion on her since her last post. Not much else she's done, either. We should kill her.

As for 15, at the time I didn't think any explanation was possible or pertenent for Patrick's vote. MBL has said repeatedly that he thinks Patrick had other motivations, and I don't think he was merely talking about some grudge from another game, so that's why I asked in 68 -- to see if there actually was something.

Not understanding why my behavior there is scummy.

[elvis_knits]

You haven't done much scumhunting. At the time, you'd made no comments about anyone's alignment

, and your question to me seemed to ignore the meat of the game in favour of something irrelevant, which you twice said was irrelevant before.

I'll try to comment more though, if it will make you feel better about me.

Beginning at the beginning!

e_k, why do you want Patrick to feel better about you? Couldn't he be scum?

I looked at what Patrick was saying and what I had posted in the game and decided that he wouldn't necessarily be scum for saying those things about me. He had a point about me not being involved enough, so, yes, he could be scum, but not necessarily. Something when people attack you with a BS case you KNOW they're scum. But I didn't feel like it here. So in the event that he is town and I have been flakey in this game, I was trying to be more involved. I figured it should give him more to judge if he thinks I am scum or not.

e_k's primary line of attack has been against MBL. She pressed MBL because his first post criticized Patrick's first post:

But MBL was asking Patrick for his voting motivations on a vote he made in the first post of the game. It doesn't seem like a big explanation is really possible there.

A little odd considering you cut Patrick slack for his first post and not me. But it was early, so haymaking is more acceptable on page one.

I don't think I "cut Patrick slack." What did you want me to attack about his post? The simple fact that he votes someone?

Why are you comparing his first post with your first post? They are entirely different. His was the first post of the game and as almost no content beyond a vote. Your is a very subjective analysis where you throw suspicion on almost everyone in the game and then vote for none of them (instead voting for someone who hasn't posted). Do NOT suggest I am partial to Patrick because I didn't judge your two posts alike. They were different with different content. The only thing they have in common is that they were the first each of you made.

Next, e_k had a problem with my first-post vote for Elias, suggesting I should have voted for someone I'm suspicious of instead of for a lurker. Fair enough, I suppose, except that she hits me for "throwing around as much suspicion as possible", but doesn't pinpoint which of MBL's observations, if any, strike her as inappropriate to raise in a first post. Perhaps they were all reasonable, e_k? If so, why criticize me for making them in post #1?

I'm critical of your first post because you criticize people for bandwagonning you and for not bandwagonning you. It's hypocritical. And I don't like that post because you seem to have a lot of people you have reason to be suspicious of, but you don't vote any of them. It doesn't make sense to me.

More recently, e_k didn't like the way I "misunderstood" bluesoul and seems to think I didn't really misunderstand him. She hits me for quote-snipping. e_k, do you understand why I didn't think the snipped sentence referred to the quoted sentence? I've made reference to my thought process on that a couple times.

On quote-snipping in general: it cleans up threads. At the top of this post you can see how I've snipped to add clarity and punctuate. I did the same in my post about bluesoul's "three players" because I honestly read the first sentence as unrelated to the one I quoted. I still don't think they necessarily read as related, other than the happenstance that both contain the word three.

Usually things in a paragraph are related. Usually people don't start talking about one thing and change subject without clarifying. Otherwise the written world would be anarchy.

And no, I do not understand why you thought two sentences that were in the same paragraph, right next to each other, were unrelated.

[elvis_knits]

You realize you just said voting you is pro-town.

[elvis_knits]

Care to explain what you believe is strange and why that brand of strangeness = scummy? And why you vote bluesoul over MBL if they are both strange?

[elvis_knits]

^^^Is this how chamber always plays?

[elvis_knits]

Today at work I broke my toe and lacerated the nail bed, requiring stitches. The near future of this game included OGML on Vicodin. Prepare yourselves.

Whose ass did you kick? They must have buns of steel.

[elvis_knits]

DGB, what are your thoughts on Bluesoul, and MBL's interactions with him?

The scumbags no longer can claim Mason, that's for sure. That whole bit about percentages was a total red herring argument. There is no way this argument was about an actual scumtell, it seemed very contrived and planned. Bus'ing is definitely a possibility here.

From my memory of this game, there's been quite a few people drawing connections between players (or maybe it's just a few players drawing quite a lot of connections). This post by DGB trying to say that she sees bussing is just an avenue for me to comment on the "connections" phenomenon in this game.

Normally, I really don't like to try to connect people on D1. Usually not even until we have lynched scum. Maybe I'm playing on a lower level than the rest of you, but I feel like it just confuses things. I feel that it is a great scum tactic to set yourself up connected to a townie, or connect your buddy to a townie. So when you allow that sort of rampant BS speculation, you open the door for a lot of scum manipulation.

But maybe I'm not thinking about things in a complex enough way. Does speculating on scum buddies or groups on D1, actually help any of you? Am I being too simplistic?

And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.

[elvis_knits]

I actually wasn't thinking of you Chamber, but I'm glad to get any sort of explanation from you

[elvis_knits]

It's something I have been noticing from a lot of people. OGML drew a connection between sarc and bluesoul (I believe, as Ether has metioned it more than once). DGB drew connection between me and PJ and then MBL/bluesoul that I quoted in 216. I think DGB has been doing a lot of it. But to be fair, Ether forced that by asking the loaded question of "DGB, what are your thoughts on Bluesoul, and MBL's interactions with him?" So I think Ether is guilty of drawing connections too, and perhaps in a more underhanded way, because she's prompting people to re-affirm any mentions of connection.

Anyway, those are the things that were swirling in my head when I was thinking about people mentioning connections. I'm sure there are more, and it's possible I have gotten something slightly wrong as I'm not rereading to make this post. That's just my general sense of it.

[elvis_knits]

I actually wasn't thinking of you Chamber, but I'm glad to get any sort of explanation from you

Sorry for the double post, but if it wasn't me who pushed you to speak then who exactly tipped the scales?

If I had to say one person who tipped the scales I would say DGB. I think she's done more than others about pairing people. Also pretty sure she has had little or no evidence when she draws these connections. Which makes it worse.

[elvis_knits]

If I had to say one person who tipped the scales I would say DGB. I think she's done more than others about pairing people. Also pretty sure she has had little or no evidence when she draws these connections. Which makes it worse.

She's done a bit of it, though I'd like to point out that you're suggestion that she was connecting you and PJ is false; if anything, it seemed like the opposite to me, since she floated a possible

disassociation

between the two of you.

I am indeed suggesting that any connection between me and Pj is false. I noticed you mentioned it in one of your posts as me "parotting PJ" and I had no idea what you were even talking about. I had to read through my own posts in isolation to figure it out.

I realize you are referring to PJ voting DGB and then me voting DGB for the same reason. There's not much I can tell you except that I had that reaction to her post before I even read PJ's. If you think that was an unreasonable reaction to DGB's post, then I somewhat understand you problem with my vote. But if you find my response reasonable, then why can't you believe two people would have the same reasonable reaction to it?

It kind of makes me mad that you used the word "parotting" though. It smells like spin. Just because two people happen to agree on something doesn't mean they are parotting each other. And you said it like parotting was a fact.

Here's the part of your post with parotting, for reference:

Why is it strange that she dislikes elvis just parrotting your reason?

[elvis_knits]

Then this, which seems a bit manufactured:

After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.

Attacking people for not piping up on particular issues is not entirely logical. I see the wider point that e_k is going after a seemingly lesser issue, but.. still feels weird.

That wasn't an attack. Elvis asked what I wanted her to comment on, so I gave some suggestions. I wasn't saying that everyone should have definitively weighed in on every single issue, I was demonstrating why I thought she was ignoring the meat of the game. Did you read the context of that post?

Considering you were saying you had bad vibes from me, and were voting me, I of course considered it an attack. I think it's odd that you didn't consider it an attack since you were voting me. I assume when people who are voting start to criticize me, that it's an attack.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, your initial reason for voting me was something about me ignoring the meat of the game, playing on the sidelines or something. At the time you posted that, it struck me that you were singling me out from others who were playing similarly (perhaps not contributing enough). IH, Chamber, Elias come to mind.

What made me seem scummier than others who weren't contributing that much?

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, are you scum?

No.

Explain.

[elvis_knits]

I like chamber.

[elvis_knits]

I like chamber.

You're not buttering him up now, are you?

Maybe I am

All I mean is that his last post made sense to me and seemed pro-town.

DGB, anything else to add to the game?

[elvis_knits]

DGB, anything else to add to the game?

Yes.

First, more butter.

Second, people are talking, which is nice, but we're a bit slow on the voting. I'd prefer more voting, as in, putting your money where your mouth is. 'Cuz talk is cheap. We want real actions that we can weigh on later on. We're just going in circles at the moment. We need more wagoning.

Interesting. You said nothing about who you think is scummy.

I think this is what you mean:

"You guys should start killing each other, but I don't want to say who because I don't really care. I plan to just throw my vote in sometime where it's least noticable and I won't have to take too much blame."

Am I right?

[elvis_knits]

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

A pro-town player eager for more bandwagoning and voting, would be attacking more, voting more, participating more. For you to complain about anemic bandwagoning but not do anything to change that, is scummy.

unvote; vote dgb

[elvis_knits]

Who has considered the possibility that I have a power role?

I have not considered the possibility. If we go around afraid to vote or lynch people because they might have a power role, then nothing would ever happen.

Also, what is the point of soft-claiming like that?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, what do you think of PJ?

I don't have a problem with him. I haven't played with him in a long time, so there I'm not really going on meta at all. I just haven't read any of his posts and thought it was BS, or thought he was trying to be manipulative.

[elvis_knits]

what is the point of soft-claiming like that?

[elvis_knits]

Supersaint? Really?

Should we take any information from the fact that this game is in little italy, the normal mini area? Because I don't think a supersaint is a normal role.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?

I don't see the correlation here between DGB's play and PJ's play. DGB's comment of "everyone looking pretty townie" is a tell that I have seen scum make. It is representative of a player who is not scum hunting. I don't think PJ fits that category. Do you? Pj has been asking a lot of questions and commenting a lot. If he's not scum hunting, then I guess he's putting on a pretty good show. If you think his play is somehow similar to DGB's you're going to have to explain it to me, because I just am not seeing it.

And it really pisses me off that I am sort of defending PJ here because I don't know that he's town. I just don't have a problem with him.

[elvis_knits]

Hello. I can be annoyed with scum too.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, it's starting to really annoy me how you keep trying to connect me to PJ. Not only is there no connection there, but I don't think that you could honestly feel like you see one.

First off, I'm not going to avoid asking questions on the chance they might annoy you. I won't get anywhere if I approach the game like that.

Good for you, Patrick!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111

Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

Patrick, I have been asked before about connections between me and PJ. I have answered all your questions and tried to be as helpful as possible. YOU have not argued with my explanations. All you do is bring up different BS points. If you feel my explanations have been bad or unsatisfactory, why haven't you argued against them? OF COURSE you were drawing a connection between myself and PJ. You've asked about us before, so why wouldn't you be doing it now? Your failure to admit it is very strange and hmmmm, scummy. If you think I'm being unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

unvote; vote patrick

I still support DGB lynch, but Ether seems to think I should hammer. I'm perfectly willing to be hammer. So now I am off the wagon, feel free to bring her to L-1.

[elvis_knits]

*birthday-bites-Patrick*

Should be good fun.

What do you think of elvis_knits?

Elvis, what do you think of PJ?

Plus there was the "elvis is parrotting PJ" piece of manufactured BS.

It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.

[elvis_knits]

So what was your particular reason for asking in THIS situation? Why did you ask PJ what he thought of me and what I thought of PJ if you were not trying to tie us together?

Do you have a clear idea of what I think of every other player? Why did you ask me specifically about PJ?

I still find it extraordinarily strange that you won't admit you were trying to tie us together.

[elvis_knits]

e_k is weird. Not certain if this is a style thing that rubs me weird or if she's actually scum. It almost seems too obvious.

elvis: "i like chamber", nothing on elias or IH

Maybe that's because elias and IH have contributed basically nothing. Are you saying I have a bias toward them?

barely anything on OGML

Why is this significant? Do you think there is something of his I should comment on? Do you comment on every aspect of every person's play?

she doesn't have a problem with PJ but doesnt want to be tied to him

I have already explained why I think trying to pair people on D1 is often misleading and usually scummy. Also, suggesting I am scum partners with someone is also suggesting I am scum. Which I kinda don't like. First of all because I am not scum. Second of all, I think it's a backhanded way of confronting someone of being scum. Reeks of manipulation.

wanted patrick to explain something, wants to be seen not liking patrick

You are attributing motivations to me you can't know or prove. You are framing my actions in a way to make me look scummy.

calls ether underhanded

One aspect of her play... not everything, not ether herself. Stop inflating.

wants to be seen as willing to hammer DGB

I

am

willing to hammer DGB. Is there something of my play that leads you to believe I am not actually willing to do it?

Also, I notice how you are derailing her bandwagon.

defends sarcastro, otherwise ignores him--possible scumpartner, could just be kissing up to town?

When did I defend sarcastro? I have no memory of this.

asked bluesoul his opinion of me, said something bluesoul did was "weird"
smells something amiss in MBL's behavior, etc etc
trying to prove herself to ether/gain approval

Explain how any of that is scummy.

95% certainty Ether and e_k aren't partners--don't think she'd seek approval from a scumpartner
95% certainty e_k and PJ aren't partners--don't think she'd draw so much attention to her displeasure being connected to a scumpartner
85% certainty e_k and chamber aren't partners--gut.

You haven't calculated the possibilty that I am an SK.

[elvis_knits]

Also, I notice how you are derailing her bandwagon.

Odds of DGB+e_k scumpair rising rapidly.

Are you saying you're not derailing DGB wagon?

[elvis_knits]

95% certainty Ether and e_k aren't partners--don't think she'd seek approval from a scumpartner
95% certainty e_k and PJ aren't partners--don't think she'd draw so much attention to her displeasure being connected to a scumpartner
85% certainty e_k and chamber aren't partners--gut.

You haven't calculated the possibilty that I am an SK.

...uh.

My comment demonstrates the strangeness of MBL's level of certainty that I am scum, but only contemplates that I am mafia. Why doesn't he contemplate that I am an SK? Why is he so absorbed in finding my scum buddies before he actually finds out if I am scum or not?

Also, I find it weird that MBL seems to be giving DGB every possible avenue to make herself seem less scummy. What has convinced him that she is town and deserves this type of babying?

[elvis_knits]

Reposting for the benefit of MBL who seems to have not paid attention to my view of scum pairings on D1.

DGB, what are your thoughts on Bluesoul, and MBL's interactions with him?

The scumbags no longer can claim Mason, that's for sure. That whole bit about percentages was a total red herring argument. There is no way this argument was about an actual scumtell, it seemed very contrived and planned. Bus'ing is definitely a possibility here.

From my memory of this game, there's been quite a few people drawing connections between players (or maybe it's just a few players drawing quite a lot of connections). This post by DGB trying to say that she sees bussing is just an avenue for me to comment on the "connections" phenomenon in this game.

Normally, I really don't like to try to connect people on D1. Usually not even until we have lynched scum. Maybe I'm playing on a lower level than the rest of you, but I feel like it just confuses things. I feel that it is a great scum tactic to set yourself up connected to a townie, or connect your buddy to a townie. So when you allow that sort of rampant BS speculation, you open the door for a lot of scum manipulation.

But maybe I'm not thinking about things in a complex enough way. Does speculating on scum buddies or groups on D1, actually help any of you? Am I being too simplistic?

And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.

[elvis_knits]

My comment demonstrates the strangeness of MBL's level of certainty that I am scum, but only contemplates that I am mafia. Why doesn't he contemplate that I am an SK? Why is he so absorbed in finding my scum buddies before he actually finds out if I am scum or not?

This is bizarre. First off, it's unlikely that there would be a serial killer in an invitational game.. the net result would be a game of about half the length on average, most likely over in 3 days and extremely swingy. A terrible way to test the skill of the best vs. the best. More curiously, e_k claims to find my search for scum pairings unusual.. isn't that just about the best way to find scum in any game?

e_k, do you often find players scummy for pursuing possible scumpairings on D1? Is testing scumpairings not a tool in your personal scumhunting toolbox?

You might be right, but to assume that we don't have an SK is sort of weird IMO. I have been in tons of minis with SKs. And if you read my above post where I quote myself, no I do NOT find scum pairings at all useful on D1. I find them useful later when we have caught scum. Until that time, I see it mostly as confusion and manipulation.

e_k, you sound pissed that I'm on to you, enough so that you joined the "Anti-MBL Cult" in the General forum yesterday.

I take that as a high compliment, and I don't think you'd be ticked enough to do that if you were town right now. I think I have you dead to rights and you really want DGB dead quickly (perhaps to make you look better?) so you can kill me off tonight before I ring you up.

MBL, you sound pissed that I keep calling you on your BS arguments against me, enough so that you are bolding parts of your comments to me in an attempt to be more obnoxious.

The post where you laid out your "case" against me is so full of holes that it isn't funny. I responded to every argument of yours and asked you several questions. You, however, have not responded to my post. You should realize this indicates you are beaten.

Also, I notice your stance on DGB is swinging crazily from "she's town let's give her a chance" to "she's e_k's scum partner."

Which is it?

Also, I find it weird that MBL seems to be giving DGB every possible avenue to make herself seem less scummy. What has convinced him that she is town and deserves this type of babying?

I'm not convinced that she's town by any means. But I don't think her posts have been thoroughly examined, nor the quality of the wagon on her. I'd like her to post a serious analysis of all other players, cause right now she's latched on to the mistaken idea that I'm scum and she "thinks everyone else is townish". Hardly solid information to go on tomorrow if DGB is our lynch of choice.

Go ahead and beg her for information if you want. It just seems like you are assuming she is town, and trying to bring her round to being a more helpful townie. Which is an odd stance to take on someone I deem scummy.

[elvis_knits]

If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later.

I've never been in a game with a supersaint, but apparently:

However, when a majority of votes is reached on you, the last person to vote for you, or the commonly called person who places the "Hammer vote", or the one who votes to make a majority, will also die along with you.

Since scum are the only people who would know whether or not the claim is true, they'd be the only people to know they should avoid hammering her. So once a supersaint claims, they're going to get nightkilled before scum would ever be forced to hammer them to end a day.

So why would you encourage DGB to claim supersaint, Ether?

Why would scum know if there is a supersaint in the game?

[elvis_knits]

If you guys are really worried about the SS possibility, and think there's scum on the DGB wagon, roll a dice and we'll have our hammer. Personally I'd like to see Ether hammer but dice would be fair and unswayable by scum.

Thank you for at least proposing a solution instead of dicking around.

I unvoted DGB so that others could vote her in safety and I agreed to hammer. However, nobody has taken me up on this offer.

[elvis_knits]

DGB's analysis of me is just regurgitating points that MBL or Ether or Patrick have already made and the I have already responded to. If they didn't like my explanation, they should have argued the point at that time instead of waiting for DGB to ignore my explanations and bring up the points like they were new.

I also think it's scummy how Ether says she's not swayed by DGB's analysis and then jumps on my bandwagon.

[elvis_knits]

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

OF COURSE, scum will sometimes buddy up to townies and they will sometimes buss on another. But I don't think it should be the primary or only way you look for scum on D1.

I will say that I was stirring the pot a little in the beginning of this game to get it going. I never said anything I didn't believe or purposely try to trap anyone. But I did say things in a way that I hoped would be a little inflamatory and generate discussion. But most of the points against me are of the paranoid ass-backwards variety that I explained above. AND I believe I have already responded to all of them in other places in the game. If you don't agree with my explanation, please respond to that instead of bringing up things I have already responded to.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis, if you're not looking for relationships between players, please explain what signs you ARE looking for in order to spot scum in this game.

It's not that I'm not looking for relationships at all, but I think that most players are relying heavily on pairings as a means of scum hunting. And I think that's dangerous on D1 with no scum dead. First of all because you're very likely to be wrong. Second of all because it opens up all sorts of room for scum tactics. When I'm scum, I try to link one or more of my buddies with other townies. It's a classic scum tactic. Worst case scenario I bring town a townie while I buss my buddy and look more townie. Best case scenario I lynch a townie and make my buddy look more townie.

So basically, I don't like it when people are linking other people together on D1. When we have lynched scum or it comes closer to endgame, I think there is more info to be had and yes, looking at partnerships becomes very important.

But it's hardly the only tool to find scum. And I think we're relying too heavily on it.

What other standards do I use to hunt scum? I look for posts or people I think are being manipulative. Example: how you, MBL, keep chopping people's quotes and then misreading them. Or how Patrick used the word "parotting" to describe me, which I think includes a lot of spin. I look for things which just don't add up to me -- like how Ether says she wants to lynch DGB, that she's not swayed by DGB's posts, and then jumps on my bandwagon. Or how DGB votes for me BEFORE doing her analysis of other players. Usually you come to a conclusion on who to vote after analyzing everyone. You don't analyze one person and vote for them, and then go and look at everyone else. This implies she WANTS to vote for me. She is looking for reasons to vote for me. Also, her case on me is completely unoriginal. She just strung together a bunch of crap I have already responded to.

[elvis_knits]

OGML mentions elvis only once.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 36#1161236

It's like elvis does not even exist for OGML in this game. Isn't that a s-t-r-a-n-g-e non-relationship between two players?

I haven't even started with OGML, but this was to cute to delay.

OGML mentions you in only two posts. Is this cute too?

[elvis_knits]

Not quite so cute as him ignoring your existence; he mentions you in non-game related banter only. Otherwise, you don't exist for him.

I have just taken the time to count how many posts each player was mentioned in OGML's posts. The results are as follows:

Sarc: 9
MBL:5
Bluesoul: 4
Ether: 4
PJ: 3
DGB: 2
Patrick: 1
Elvis: 1
IH: 0
Elias: 0
Chamber: 0

I am making this chart to demonstrate the idiocy of connecting one player to another because one of htem has mentioned the other a total of 1 time. Or 2 times. Or 0 times. DGB and quite a few others are not looking at the big picture. If OGML has mentioned Patrick and elvis 1 time and IH, Elias, and Chamber 0 times, you can hardly draw a connection to one of those players solely on the basis of how many times they are mentioned.

[elvis_knits]

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

More to come.

Also, talk about giving someone a free pass.

[elvis_knits]

Also, talk about giving someone a free pass.

This is MBL we're talking about. He's playing a perfect townie game.

I'd have to disagree.

What do you make of MBL's convenient chopping of people's quotes?

[elvis_knits]

What do you make of MBL's convenient chopping of people's quotes?

I do that all the time myself for the sake of brevity and increasing the chances that people will actually read the quote. If I remove something I'll usually replace with with the [...] convention. I don't see that as scummy, sorry. If you find anything else scummy about MBL, I'm all ears, though.

You're missing the point. It's not that he chopped quotes to make it easier to read. He chopped quotes, taking out the most important part of the quote, and misunderstood what people were saying in a way that he could not have misunderstood had he quoted everything. It was very convenient.

[elvis_knits]

I don't see how you're the driving force behind my wagon. DGB's regurgitated case got my wagon going, not you. I really don't think the consensus in this game is "MBL is townie town town" for anyone but DGB.

Also, please see the way you snipped bluesoul to misunderstand him.

[elvis_knits]

To throws suspicion on other players.

Also, I think sometimes as scum you start to do underhanded things without even realizing them. Because you're not thinking like a townie. Even though you think you are.

[elvis_knits]

I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However,

e_k

, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.

Personally, I find that I do better finding scum by just voting who I think is individually the most scummy. (With relationships being secondary, but yes, probably a factor). After scum has been lynched, I put more emphasis on relationships. But I still think there is now substitute for looking at individual actions. I think pairings present a lot of room for misdirection. I think it compounds the difficulty of the game.

Others may not agree. That's fine. But that's how I feel.

I wonder, those of you who like to call the scum team on D1, how many times have you gotten that right? I'd be surprised if it's any higher than random chance, and believe it's probably lower due to scum manipulations.

[elvis_knits]

Forcing people to talk about other people gives you insight into their relationship. For example, if you talk awkwardly about you and DGB, it's very possible that you're a scumpair.

So you don't have to be 100% accurate when discussing scumpairs, you just have to prod people into talking about connections.

Have you ever been right when calling the scum group on D1?

[elvis_knits]

Yay for replacements!

You have reached the winter of our discontent.

[elvis_knits]

That's horrible reasoning.

[elvis_knits]

I would also like to point out that we have fostered a very bad paranoid environment in this game where nobody can agree with another person without being accused of buddying, and nobody can attack another person without being accused of bussing. It's a very ass-backwards environment (that I think grows out of looking for scum buddies on D1 with no solid evidence to run off of), that severely favors scum and manipulation.

I must disagree with elvis that the environment of the game has changed. I think she feels so because it comes from her viewpoint, but I think if someone is afraid of participating, that's their own damn fault. However, e_k, if you feel that this is the case, then who is the most responsible for creating such an environment?

I don't think the environment has changed. I think it's been going this way all game with people putting too much emphasis on finding scum pairs when we don't even know if we have scum.

Okay, so then from the first moment of this game there has been a horrible environment that has been fostered. Okay. Duly noted. However, is everyone guilty of such a thing? And if so who is the most responsible for creating such an environment? And to help you out to actually answer this question, who is the most responsible for counteracting this type of environment?

You know, I really don't know when this game jumped the shark in terms of relying too much on stupid connections between players. I don't think it was uber horrible from the start. And I don't think there is a definitive point where it got bad. I just think we've been going that way for a while. I can go back and see who the first person was to try making a bad connection between people. Is that what you want me to do? Blame it all on one person? I'm not sure that would really be reliable. I'm not sure the first person to say something like that is def. scum. But it may be worth discussing.

I think the players that have been trying to connect others most are: MBL, DGB, Patrick, Ether, OGML (I think he was saying something about sarc/bluesoul early in the game). I obviously know it's not possible for all of them to be scum, so that's why I made the comments that we were contributing to a bad environment. I'm not sure who is/is not scum in that group. But I have not liked some of the comments that each of them have made in regards to connecting people based off little evidence or reasoning.

[elvis_knits]

I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).

I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?

[elvis_knits]

I'd prefer not to claim. It seems that if I breadcrumb a power role, disappear for a week or two, then come back with a regurgitated case on some people, everyone will jump off my bandwagon and start listening to what I have to say like it is the gospel.

[elvis_knits]

I mentioned that you were one of the people forging connections between players that I do not agree with. (And since the connection involved me, I am the best person to judge if it's right).

I never said that it's a crime to ponder the possibilty of two people being connected. I said we're relying too much on it. And I only mentioned your name because pablito was asking me to name people who have been doing it. Why do I feel like pablito set a trap, I walked right in, and Patrick locked the cage door behind me?

I'm actually talking about the whole notion rather than that one post, although it did push me over the edge. What I get from your posts is that you're saying anyone drawing connections today is scummy. I'll quote the post where I got this:

And for the record, I do think that everyone that has tried making these "connections" on D1 is somewhat scummy. I'd have to look at individual instances to be able to comment on the exact degree of scumminess. But in general, I think it's scummy move.

The post I quoted in my last post also fairly clearly has an accusatory edge towards all the people you listed, and I think that any notion that I've been contributing towards a "bad environment" is hyperbole, since hardly anything I've done is based on connections.

I don't like the notion that drawing connections on day 1 is scummy because:
1) It's clearly debated whether it's useful or not, and people have different opinions to you (not affected by alignments, as shown by the MD thread).
2) Even if someone is definitely pushing a connection too hard, I don't think it's clear that it's scummy. I often see townies simply becoming too married to their conspiracy theories.

What trap do you think you've just been caught in?

Patrick, I disagree. I've made my opinion clear. I mildly resent you calling my thoughts hyperbole, especially when you're at least as bad as I am. I felt like it was a trap because I only brought my point up again because Pablito asked me to, and that triggered a fresh attack from you. I only named you because Pablito was fishing for it. I feel like he set me up.

[elvis_knits]

e_k, maybe you think I set a trap up, but you're whinging about the whole ass-backwards environment but yet you fail to directly address the people who are creating this pair-finding environment. I just felt like you're trying to jab without getting all full of jelly on your hands and I'm trying to figure out what the hell you're doing and if it actually makes sense. On the other hand, even if you think I was setting you up in a trap, you failed to see the last question I gave you - who do you think is doing the most to counteract such an environment. I felt I gave you a good question and thought you may even give a softball answer to the first and then only answer this last one just to make yourself look better.

I just think if you whinge, you gotta give an option to counteract whatever it's about. Blame others if you will, but you have the power to try to change it.

I thought bringing it up would encourage everyone to stop relying so heavily on it. I am not doing it, so I am trying to change it. I don't feel comfortable blaming one person though. Nor do I want to say who I think is "trying to counteract it the most." It's not an answer that I have thought about, and trying to answer it for you would be pretty unreliable because I feel there are a lot of people that are equal in that regard. I guess the answer is "I don't know."

FTR, I do not plan on claiming, so if you think I am scum, feel free to vote. I will respond to any concerns/questions/arguments though, so anyone undecided feel free to discuss it first.

[elvis_knits]

I do not plan on claiming

then you need to die.

I don't think a claim should really change anything. Either you think I'm scummy or you don't.

[elvis_knits]

What annoys me is that nothing really stood out to me about elvis when reading the thread through myself for the first time, meaning that most of my suspicion is based off of DGB's analysis.

So either you are town letting yourself be manipulated by DGB, or you are scum who is going to blame your vote on DGB tomorrow.

Don't you think there is something WRONG with not seeing any problem with me when you read through the game, but after reading other comments on me, you feel comfortable with my lynch?

So yeah, I think an elvis lynch would give quite a lot of information regarding PJ, MBL and others, more so than DGB right now.

What information do you think my lynch will yield? If I'm scum, sure, it will yield info. If I'm town, what will you learn about all these fake connections people have been spouting all game? All you will learn is that I was right, that you let yourselves be manipulated and confused by all these bogus pairings. And you even used the reason "elvis lynch will tell us more about our retarded pairing speculation" as fuel for my lynch.

But seriously, I want to know what conclusions you will reach if I am town.

[elvis_knits]

I just want to present the kind of stupid fail conclusions that MBL is spewing. It is representative of how he is jumping to conclusions on absolutely unstable information.

OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!

OK, so IH/CDB is scum. Good to know. Welcome to the game!

huh?

Mod replaces scum before town. Just a hunch.

Having been scum with the Delibird in the past, I have to say his first post shows either a newfound maturity as scum or a lack of guile. Who was he previously, IH? So yeah, I guess IH was lazy town?

[elvis_knits]

What annoys me is that nothing really stood out to me about elvis when reading the thread through myself for the first time, meaning that most of my suspicion is based off of DGB's analysis.

So either you are town letting yourself be manipulated by DGB, or you are scum who is going to blame your vote on DGB tomorrow.

Don't you think there is something WRONG with not seeing any problem with me when you read through the game, but after reading other comments on me, you feel comfortable with my lynch?

Let me make this clear - I'm not just letting myself be manipulated. I've looked at the points that DGB (and others) have made and I've gone back and looked at the relevant posts to see whether I agree. And I do, as described above. You're right, I don't feel as strongly about this vote as I do often in other games, but I've taken into account the fact that I've had to catch up quickly on 20 pages of content from highly accomplished players, most of which was dominated by the more visible (and yes, scummy) play of DGB to the extent that I don't feel too bad about having missed these things concering you the first time through.

Do you think you missed my scummy play or that it isn't really there and people are reading into it?

So yeah, I think an elvis lynch would give quite a lot of information regarding PJ, MBL and others, more so than DGB right now.

What information do you think my lynch will yield? If I'm scum, sure, it will yield info. If I'm town, what will you learn about all these fake connections people have been spouting all game? All you will learn is that I was right, that you let yourselves be manipulated and confused by all these bogus pairings. And you even used the reason "elvis lynch will tell us more about our retarded pairing speculation" as fuel for my lynch.

But seriously, I want to know what conclusions you will reach if I am town.

If you're town, I'll be looking back at Patrick, who pushed you early, and MBL, who picked up on you later but has since pushed hard (I found his analysis less compelling than DGB's).

If you'll be giving Patrick and MBL a hard time tomorrow, then I am satisfied and ready to die. I won't self-hammer though. I don't want to rob you of that info. I'd still rather not die though. But I understand. I actually think there will be a lot of info tomorrow since a lot of the case generated on me was blown out of proportion or jumped on at weird times. Like the fact that MBL seemed to try to save DGB. Or how Patrick argued semantics with me about how I dislike pairings on D1, when he could have been scum hunting. I think he was just trying to stay active while contributing nothing, and hoping my lynch would go through.

[elvis_knits]

Don't BS me. I know you're a good player. Do you really think you'd totally miss someone being really scummy?

[elvis_knits]

The amount of doubt you express at the same time as you vote me is certainly interesting.

[elvis_knits]

OMG I hear the voice of reason.

[elvis_knits]

e_k = how come you blame me of setting the trap and patrick for locking the cage but yet chamber asked "who tipped the scales" earlier on and you obliged to answer who you thought was making scum pairings.

Forgive me for not paying attention to that earlier sequence, but you were quite defensive and miffed for answering a question that you actually pretty much answered earlier.

When chamber asked me who tipped the scales, I wasn't immediately attacked. So it didn't feel like a trap. It seemed more like an honest request for information. It was the first time I had brought up my idea that I disliked so much pairing discussion on D1, so it seemed natural for people to ask questions. It didn't feel like a loaded question to me since the question didn't cause me to be immediately attacked.

I felt like you were bringing up a topic that was clearly making me unpopular with many of the players. Asking me to repeat myself and explain myself again on a topic that has alienated me from many players is asking me to alienate and piss people off again. Sort of like "Tell us again why you beat your wife?" So then I have to explain myself again, which opens up all the old wounds and surprise, surprise, Patrick attacks me immediately. What did you expect to happen? Everyone suddenly agrees with me? No. Of course not. They still disagree with me, but now they are even more pissed that I bring it up again (which I wouldn't have if you hadn't asked).

I felt like you were posing a question that was the equivalent of "why don't you and him fight?"

[elvis_knits]

Also, I blame MBL for the dissolution of the DGB wagon.

[elvis_knits]

^^^
Sarcasm is scummy, just to beat you all to the punch.

Sarcasm isn't scummy, but paranoia is!

[elvis_knits]

As for the case on E_K, I wasn't really buying a lot of the early "tells", but as we got toward the later pages - 10-15 I believe - I start to see where there's some merit. My biggest concerns came with her lack of interest in why Ether wanted her specifically to hammer. I am still wondering why that is, but Elvis never seemed to care and it wasn't like that comment slipped by her. I also was put off by the entire SK discussion. That didn't seem like anything that a pro-town player would even bring up. There's really no value in putting that information out there as a defence and if she were trying to attack MBL with those comments, it would only imply that he could be the SK. That just seems like a nice smokescreen.

I assumed Ether wanted me to hammer because she thought DGB might be a super saint, and if so, she wanted me to die too. I agreed to do it because I think DGB is scum, not super saint. And even if she is a supersaint, I would be willing to die since I have created a lot of havoc in the town. It seemed win-win for the town.

My comments about SK were basically to show how ridiculous MBL's comments were about my percentage chance of being mafia with certain people. Also, I still think it's significant that he didn't ponder the possibility of an SK. I think it's possible that this game might have one, yet, MBL thinks it's impossible. WHY? That doesn't make sense to me. Unless he's the SK. Because that's the only reason I can think of why a player would be looking solely for mafia, and not for an SK. I find town usually look for "scum," not mafia or SK. Unless it's getting late in the game and you have more to work with.

[elvis_knits]

[I agree somewhat that elvis was reaching on the SK issue, but your other (main?) reason for suspecting her seems odd to me. It doesn't seem scummy on her part.

Does the fact that you don't like his reasons for voting me make you think twice about lynching me?

[elvis_knits]

chamber: He is being far more talkative than I've seen. I really do not like his wanting DBG to claim without being lynched. Particularly since he effectively told elvis to claim or die. Find him scummy.

I never wanted dgb to die really, I had my vote on her a bit for the sake of the game. I wanted her to claim cause of that one line she said, and would still be happy if she did but meh. As a general policy I think its a good idea to lynch people who refuse to claim, dgb is dgb, but by letting Elvis get away with it too we are saying that no one needs to claim this game, and thats NOT a message I'm willing to send.

I don't think it's fair to have a double standard for me and dgb. She doesn't have to claim, but I do? If you're going to kill one of us for not claiming, I think it should be her because she was first. And I think it's unfair to excuse her scummy play as "just being dgb." She is not always town just because she is "just being dgb."

[elvis_knits]

So why is not claiming a "just being dgb" thing? Why is she excused and I am not?

[elvis_knits]

So why is not claiming a "just being dgb" thing? Why is she excused and I am not?

I've seen her do it as town. Not the case for you.

I don't remember ever playing with you before so how are you drawing a conclusion about what I would do or not do as town?

[elvis_knits]

I agree I don't do things that are irrational. Stupid sometimes, but not irrational. And my reason for not claiming is neither stupid nor irrational. I think.

[elvis_knits]

Can we talk about how MBL said it would be ridiculous/impossible to have a SK in a minvitational, and I was stupid/misdirecting for suggesting it? Because Minvitational 8 had a SK.

I really think the SK is most likely to say there's no SK in the game.

Also, I blame him for the dissolution of the DGB wagon.

And where is he lately anyway?

unvote; vote MBL

[elvis_knits]

I think it's stupid to suspect Elias just because he doesn't find me scummy. I think it would be much easier for a scum to say that they find me scummy, given the fact that most people in this game think I'm scummy. If that's too much WIFOM for you, I would again say that it is also stupid to conclude that Elias is scum for not suspecting me, before you find out my allignment. Unless you have some way of knowing for sure what my allignment is, you should not rely on that as your MAIN reason for suspecting someone else.

I find CDB much scummier ATM. He replaced in and did a reread, finding DGB scummiest, and not really seeing a case on me, but when he saw that others were against me, he changed his tune. He even uses DGB's analysis (who he says he thought was scummy) as a map to see if I was scummy. It makes NO sense to use a scummy player's analysis to base your next suspicions on.

What annoys me is that nothing really stood out to me about elvis when reading the thread through myself for the first time, meaning that most of my suspicion is based off of DGB's analysis.

So either you are town letting yourself be manipulated by DGB, or you are scum who is going to blame your vote on DGB tomorrow.

Don't you think there is something WRONG with not seeing any problem with me when you read through the game, but after reading other comments on me, you feel comfortable with my lynch?

Let me make this clear - I'm not just letting myself be manipulated. I've looked at the points that DGB (and others) have made and I've gone back and looked at the relevant posts to see whether I agree. And I do, as described above. You're right, I don't feel as strongly about this vote as I do often in other games, but I've taken into account the fact that I've had to catch up quickly on 20 pages of content from highly accomplished players, most of which was dominated by the more visible (and yes, scummy) play of DGB to the extent that I don't feel too bad about having missed these things concering you the first time through.

I think I significantly poked holes in CDB's vote on me, and after that CDB sort of disappeared and hasn't been contributing much at all. I think he is afraid to poke his head up after that pathetic attempt to get me lynched.

unvote; vote CDB

[elvis_knits]

I find CDB much scummier ATM. He replaced in and did a reread, finding DGB scummiest, and not really seeing a case on me, but when he saw that others were against me, he changed his tune. He even uses DGB's analysis (who he says he thought was scummy) as a map to see if I was scummy. It makes NO sense to use a scummy player's analysis to base your next suspicions on.

That's exactly what Elias did.

How come it's scummy when CDB does it, but not Elias?

Elias didn't do the same thing. Elias read your case on me to find dirt on you; CDB read your case on me to find dirt on me.

[elvis_knits]

I'm waiting for the CDB wagon to get underway.

Isn't this how we roll? When we fail to lynch we go after the lynchee's choice of wagon?

[elvis_knits]

I don't like Elvis's recent votehops: she picked up some flak for her MBLvote, then stayed quiet for four days and switched to CDB without another word on MBL. (She says there's a parallel to this in CDB's falling behind, but her spat with him doesn't seem worth lurking as scum--plus he later unvotes, so it doesn't work as a sinister way to keep a vote on her anyway. I'm not interested in any part of her case.) Having said that, I'd sort of expect her to be pushing a DGBlynch over a brand new wagon--I don't get why she's abandoned her DGBhate, regardless of alignment. Elvis, what

is

your opinion of DGB?

I've hardly voted for that many people this entire game, so calling my vote change "vote hops" is misleading and manipulative. I think I've been voting MBL, Patrick, and DGB this whole game. I'm trying not to have tunnel-vision though and trying to expand my focus. The way CDb put his vote on me always bothered me since he originally said he didn't see me as scummy, but after reading DGB's case on me, was ready to lynch me. That whole equation is f***ed.

My opinion of DGB. I think she's pretty scummy and would be a good lynch either way. I think she's more helpful to scum even if she's town, so I think people who tried to save her (ahem, MBL) are pretty scummy. I'm not pushing her lynch right now because being a broken record is not fun for me. And I think it's worth it to explore other people. Because I know I'm not always right and I could be wrong about DGB. So it's better for me to express other suspicions and get some conversation going about them.

My own opinion of DGB keeps oscillating between "shit why am I voting Elvis" and "oh that meta thing."

Did you mean a meta on me or on DGB?

[elvis_knits]

I've hardly voted for that many people this entire game, so calling my vote change "vote hops" is misleading and manipulative. I think I've been voting MBL, Patrick, and DGB this whole game. I'm trying not to have tunnel-vision though and trying to expand my focus.

Okay, then. I don't like the way you voted MBL out of nowhere with one of your reasons being his deflecting the DGBwagon, then ignored the flak you picked up on it and hopped to CDB without commenting on MBL again. That is exactly what I already said. (I do think "vote hops" is an accurate term, but I'm perfectly willing to use wordy definitions instead.)

I don't know why you think my vote on MBL comes out of nowhere since I have been fighting with him all day.

I don't really remember what the flak was that I got over that vote. People are entitled to their opinion. If there's something in particular you want me to respond to, please let me know. Sometimes I haven't answered things that I feel have already been answered. You might take that as me ignoring.

What do you think about my defense of CDB?

Yours is this:

(She says there's a parallel to this in CDB's falling behind, but her spat with him doesn't seem worth lurking as scum--plus he later unvotes, so it doesn't work as a sinister way to keep a vote on her anyway. I'm not interested in any part of her case.)

I think it is worth lurking as scum. He replaces into the game and puts me very close to lynch with bad reasoning. And he was called on it. I think that makes him look pretty bad. It's basically the only thing he's done in the game, put a very badly reasoned vote on me. I don't know why you downplay it.

The fact that he later unvoted only strengthens my case because he waited aorund to see if I would get lynched, and then when it looked like it wasn't happening, he backs down.

I don't like your explanation for why deflecting a DGBtown lynch would be something scum would be more likely to do. Not at all. Not sure I believe the probing new people excuse, but it's not the sort of sentiment I'll attack.

You've never noticed that DGB is a free scum buddy?

[elvis_knits]

You've never noticed that DGB is a free scum buddy?

True that, but THAT much?????

I love you... I just mean that if you're acting scummy anyway (which most people acknowledge), there doesn't seem to be much sense in keeping you alive on the chance that we're wrong and you *might* be town.

[elvis_knits]

Ether, I don't think elvis really finds me scummy.

Actually, I do. Why do you doubt my sincerity?

[elvis_knits]

I don't think "flitted off you like a butterfly" is correct. I've been voting, you, patrick, and DGB until recently. I've been voting my top suspects when I question them.

I think you may be right that I have acted defensively toward you. I have felt that you attacks have been full of fail. When I see a BS attack on me, and a player who refuses to listen to my explanation and is determined to read me as scummy no matter what I say, who refuses to even contemplate that they might be wrong (gasp!), I do start to think that person is scum.

[elvis_knits]

I think it's cool how half the players in this game have been inactive for long stretches of time and lurkers have been replaced with lurkers.

[elvis_knits]

@dgb and hackerhuck, what was tying up the wagons supposed to accomplish? Seems like it just pushes us more towards deadlock.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not interested in lynching elias solely to save myself... I would only vote him if I thought he was scum. I think a lot of the bad feeling toward him has come because he didn't read the game and go "OMG ELVIS IS SCUM" like a lemming. And I don't think that makes him scummy.

[elvis_knits]

CTD, you don't want me dead any time soon unless you're scum.

Why do we let you get away with this kind of crap?

Let me explain why this kind of statement is annoying. It implies that you are either:

1)So townie you are beyond reproach (which is so not true, and also, you should not be the one judging)
2)Possibly hinting at power role without claiming and without anyone asking for you to claim... so scummy
3)Even if you're town, you totally ignore the possibility that another townie might think you scummy. As if your behavior is so townie! (Actually this is basically the same point as 1).

This kind of comment is at least pompous, conceited, and narrow-minded. And possibly an effective way to manipulate people into thinking you're town when you're not.

Also, what do you think of DGB's leap to ME of all people when she was about to be lynched?

"Me, of all people"

Like it would be ridiculous for anyone to think you're scum! LOLOLOLOLOL! (See reasing above for why this is annoying and possibly scummy).

Note that a week after voting me as "obvscum" DGB posted the following:

MBL is townie-town-town. Which he would be regardless of his alignment. He recently fooled me quite thoroughly in mith's latest game but I can't really find flaw in his play here either. He's going to drive me crazy all game that way.

Also, how about her leap to elvis once DGB was safe and the public consensus was elvis looked bad? Would you say DGB's use of elvis as the yardstick by which to measure all others looks more like scum hiding behind a screwed townie or scum plotting to vindicate themselves when their scumpartner comes up dirty? (Or genuine town screwiness?)

I would also like it if MBL answers these questions about why he thinks DGL did these things.

I think that DGB used me as a yardstick to connect people as scum buddies because there was a lot of postulating on scum buddies at the time, and she was using it as another reason why I should be lynched. If she can make it look plausable that she has found scum AND partners, she can say it's worth it to lynch me for the information that will yield about others. Many people were saying this. That I had to be lynched for information. Nobody was realizing that 1)The cases connecting me to others was full of WIFOM, and 2) I was being connected to more than half the town as scum partner which is impossible and should have shown how ridiculous the connections were that were being made.

[elvis_knits]

While we are exploring the scumminess of bluesoul, which I think has some merit, I also want to bring up:

ETHER

-Has been focused primarily on me all game. That's fine if she thinks I'm scum, but to fail to contemplate other people is bad. I think it's abnormal for a player to be SO sure of their suspicions of one person that they never want to go after anyone else. And in that sense, it is a bit of a scum tell as it's not normal townie behavior. (CTD said she tends to do this. Maybe. I don't remember it in PYP3, the other game I played with her).

-dislike of DGB wagon, yet wants her to claim and speculated A LOT on her role:

I mentioned DGB in passing twice up there, and am aware that she is the leading wagon. Eh. She should claim, I guess, but this is one of those things I wouldn't join outside of a deadline but can't be bothered to fight. Deadline in mind, assuming the votecount stays like this, I'll hop on around...let's say late Thursday, which would be about 60-72 hours after the deadline kicks in.

She still needs to claim.

DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling--I don't think her failure to claim could possibly be optimal, but I could see her doing it as town in at least one role. If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later. Please confirm or deny that?

I could totally see DGB making the statement in 316 as a supersaint, and as I've said, I wouldn't want to lynch her if she claimed that (if she's scum, there's still no harm waiting on a supersaint claim). But that's the only town explanation I do see. It could be a gambit as scum, and I don't like the way she hasn't posted since my statement.

Supersaint is a dead end claim. I have seen it used as a fakeclaim, yes, and I can see the psychology behind that, but in practice it's only a way to stall. It's a bonus lynch in three-player endgame, or possibly before that, depending on parity. It wouldn't even score a counterclaim the scum would be interested in.

This extreme interest in DGB to claim and her role speculating about supersaint is scummy to me because SHE DOESN'T EVEN THINK DGB IS SCUM. She's sort of waffly and says she thinks DGB is hard to read. Spending this much time trying to figure out a person's role when you don't even think they're scum is very scummy. It's role fishing.

Also, all the speculation about a supersaint had a lot to do with the stalling of DGB wagon, and the failure to lynch her (I blame MBL mostly, but I think Ether had a hand in it as well). I was the only one willing to hammer her, but never got the chance because the wagon swung away.

-This one is a small thing, but in her most recent attack on me she said:

I don't like Elvis's recent votehops: she picked up some flak for her MBLvote, then stayed quiet for four days and switched to CDB without another word on MBL. (She says there's a parallel to this in CDB's falling behind, but her spat with him doesn't seem worth lurking as scum--plus he later unvotes, so it doesn't work as a sinister way to keep a vote on her anyway. I'm not interested in any part of her case.) Having said that, I'd sort of expect her to be pushing a DGBlynch over a brand new wagon--I don't get why she's abandoned her DGBhate, regardless of alignment. Elvis, what is your opinion of DGB?

It bothered me that she said I "stayed quiet for four days," when she has been posting less and less, and it had been 5-6 days between posts for her when she said that about me. And now she hasn't posted for 2 weeks.

Also, I might have said this before, but WTF is she doing asking me what I think of DGB when I have consistently said I want her dead?

[elvis_knits]

elvis, I'm just having fun with little statements like those. Clearly I don't expect that everyone will drop their pants and realize I'm town just cause I say so. But as town I'm really not worried about it either, because my protown playstyle is already shining through. And it's a little curious that CTD hasn't picked up on it yet, because he nailed my alignment in both of the last two games we played together and he was town in both.

I have never played with you before (at least I don't remember). So how am I supposed to know your pro-town playstyle? And if you know what your pro-town playstyle is, doesn't that mean you can fake it when you're scum?

I'm wondering now if CTD is scum prepared to profit if/when elvis gets mislynched as town. He cuts her way too much slack/doesn't really seem to have read her posts carefully, cause there's a lot wrong in her posts imo.

This is a great example of how you decrease a town's effectiveness and increase paranoia, based solely on supposition! Congratulations! You spend lots of time saying I'm scum, then attact others if they don't agree with you. And somehow, you come to the conclusion that if I'm town, it's scummy for anyone else to recognize it! These kinds of statements make it impossible for townies to agree with one another without looking scummy, and increases paranoia.

This type of thing screws up the town and manipulates people into agreeing with YOU. It's divisive and unhelpul and SCUMMY.

(How can this be your pro-town playstyle? I cannot see it.)

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

DGB's is horrible. So is yours.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think that E_K's observations on him make the strong case she's trying to.

Explain what you don't agree with, or what points you find weak.

I'm not sure what to make of her sudden lashing out at MBL and Ether.

I have had a problem with both of them all game, in case you haven't noticed. Why do you say I am "lashing out." Does that mean you don't agree with my points or that you simply don't want me putting down my suspicions? If you don't agree with my points, let me know which ones and why. If you have some other reason you object to it, please say WHY.

It seems like she might be worried about being a deadline lynch, but our content seems to be good enough that we won't be hit with a deadline anytime soon. I can definitely see that she might be protecting bother herself and Elias from that perspective.

Any reason you think this or are you just throwing around BS like MBL?

[elvis_knits]

Patrickx2, DGB, PJ, MBLx4, CDB, Huck

A list of the number of times elvis has called other people's cases on her "bullshit". Unfortunately for elvis, only 3 at most can be scum, so you're basically saying that at least three townies are intentionally trying to fling poo at you and make it stick? Why would they do that?

Of course the cases on me are BS, since I am town. Plus, I am not calling them BS just because they come to the conclusion that I am scum. I call them BS because the arguments are flawed and I have said why they are flawed. A fact that you choose to disregard.

I don't think all the people who have ever voted me are scum. That would be ludicrous and impossible. I think some are scum and some are mistaken. Townies do attack townies (see below). That doesn't mean that the cases are legit.

And worst of all, I'm town and you've accused me of making bullshit cases 4 times, so color me super unimpressed. In the case that you're town, you'll look really bad when I come up dead town, because you'll have to explain why you were accusing a townie of flinging bullshit at you.

Have you ever seen a townie attack another townie? It happens. If you flip town, I should be attacked if people think my arguments are scummy, not because of my conclusion. The same for you. When I flip town, you should be attacked for all the scummy arguments you've made, not just simply that you thought I was scum.

I think scum are much more likely to try and disparage cases wantonly like that. I also think town would do a better job of explaining which cases are bullshit and which are at least somewhat legit. I'll read through and see if elvis has done that in the least, or if she's just trying to tear down and discredit instead of scumhunt.

WTF? Try reading before you draw conclusions, because I certainly have responded to the arguments made against me, and in great detail. YOU, on the other hand, have failed to answer most of my responses or question. Maybe that's because you don't care what I say, you only want me dead. A scummy POV if I ever saw one.

For example, you never answered most of my questions on this page.

IF YOU KNOW YOUR OWN TOWNIE PLAYSTYLE, DOESN'T THAT MEAN YOU CAN FAKE IT AS SCUM AND SAY "LOOK AT ME I'M A TOWNIE!"?

[elvis_knits]

Finding one scum on day 1 is good enough for me.

[elvis_knits]

I do think CDB has a good chance of being scum. I would like if he would actually participate in the game so I could be sure. Atleast have some sort of dialogue with him.

The more I talk to you, the more sure I am that you are scum though.

I guess I am doing better at finding scum than I thought.

The above comment was mostly to show how stupid I think your comments to me are. Like I should be able to find all the scum on day 1. How about if I just lynch one scum and go from there? Why do you think I should be able to know who all the scum are on day 1? Nobody can know that, that's why it's a game. And for you to imply that I am somehow scummy for not knowing how many on my bandwagon are scum and who NOT on my bandwagon are scum... is unfair to me. And that is scummy of you to hold me to a ridiculous standard.

I would rather lynch you today, but all my efforts at doing so have failed, so I am TRYING to look for other scum, hence my vote on CDB.

[elvis_knits]

I just scrolled up. All your questions to me seemed to be facetious:

"Your pro-town playstyle sucks, you look like scum, and couldn't you fake it anyway?"

I'm serious about that question. If you're going to try to defend yourself by saying this is your pro-town playstyle, then I have a right to question you about it. It was not rhetorical.

[elvis_knits]

First of all, failure to respond to concerns about your scumminess is not pro-town. If you're town, town needs you alive, and if you won't defend yourself you will probably die. So that doesn't help town. Also, maybe a townie is attacking you and if you respond to them, they might realize you're town and go after someone else, increasing chances of finding scum.

Also, I have been commenting on players who I think are scummy whether they are on my wagon or not. I don't know why I have to analyze them according to your specifications. Do you want me to post my thoughts on every player? In regards to their voting patterns in regard to me? Is that what you want?

I don't know why you can't see my thought processes yet. I've posted a lot this game, but I guess none of it is good enough for you.

And if you really think I'm scum, and that the mostly-absent CDB is the second most likely scumbag, then from my perspective your scumhunting is mediocre or phony.

Why do you have to insult me?

Also, you are implying I am wrong about my suspicions... and how would you know that for sure?

[elvis_knits]

[...]

but her argument about CDB aint bad (though thin) and her arguments about Ether and DGB are decent.

I think the case on CDB is thin because he hasn't participated much. But I think we could do much worse than to lynch a lurker who when they have been active have been scummy.

I'm not sure what is the REAL undercurrent of the game -- if scum is being aggressive and involved or if they are sitting back and watching townies fight. It's probably a mixture. But in the event that MBL and I are both town, we have been helping scum by fighting so much. I think that it's a very good approach for scum to lurk and come in at important moments to place votes... doing the bare minimum to help the mislynch along while they try to avoid too much exposure.

And I think CDB fits that bill exceptionally well because his reasoning was so horrible. His first read was that DGB was scummy and that I was not. Then he was swayed by DGB's case on me enough to want me dead. He should think for himself, and he should definitely not be giving so much credit to DGB when he thought she was scummy.

Then he lurks, and takes his vote off me when it looks like my lynch will not happen (to avoid further scrutiny and blend in again?). He even admits he might not be on my wagon for the right reasons.

Also, she's created a great web between her and others, and while that would provide lots of info if she's lynched, it'd also do the same tomorrow after a lynch and NK. I generally prefer to keep around more active, scumhunting players, and I think elvis is working harder than many in this game.

It only provides lots of info if I flip scum. When I come up town, these fake connection that have been made will do a whole lot of nothing for you. You'll just try to blame each other for the lynch or what not. Much more would be learned if I flip scum.

SO. I think it would be a bad idea to lynch a person JUST because you think you could learn a lot if they come up scum. You have to have independent reasons why you think they're scum.

Minor note: elvis claimed as scum in the game in which we were scum together. Maybe she's a better player now and is building a meta of not claiming regardless, but it's a mild pro-town point as well that she refused to claim at her own peril.

I don't know what game you're talking about (I have almost no memory of games played before my hiatus) but I do normally claim regardless of allignment. I'm not trying to build a meta. I just didn't see how my claim would help anything. I said it before -- if the town thinks I am scum, then they should lynch me. Forget about my role.

[elvis_knits]

Hey CDB, having a good time playing Marathon games? Just wondering if you've asked for replacement yet, or if you're still actually playing this game.

This is why lynching CDB = good

Same for Ether, but I think CDB is stronger.

[elvis_knits]

Overall, I haven't been THAT worried about him. I remember reading your remarks on him and thinking they were true and I hadn't really noticed some of the things you pulled out about him. Of course I don't remember what they are now... I will reread that.

But, I do agree that his most recent comments about you wre unfair and manipulative.

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

First of all, he can't allow pablito to say he thinks you're pro-town without saying that means you're probably scum buddies. Which, is a ridiculous assertion to make EVERY time one person agrees with another. It should be more about a pattern of behavior and be founded in each individual's scumminess before you jump to "they're scum buddies."

Also, discouraging participation and leadership is bad. If he disagrees with your leadership or arguments, that is a valid reason to disagree, but simply that you are taking active interest is not a reason to suspect someone of being scum.

[elvis_knits]

Am I dead yet?

(I'm trying out the DGB style of posting. It apparently gets you out of being lynched)

I know this feeling since I was frustrated with the latitude given to DGB and the unfairness given to me at some earlier points.

However, being a pain in the ass is not helpful.

I propose we give some extra weight to the players who aren't contributing. Not a straight lurker lynch (although that might be helpful), but I think we should lynch someone who is a combination of lurky and scummy. It would help the game in two ways.

P.S. CDB fits this bill!

[elvis_knits]

If things are slowing down, it's probably because the scum doesn't know whether they should bus, or vote for the townie. Thus the slowing of the wagon is indicative of one of Elias and elvis being scum.

You conveniently ignore that fact that your wagon also stalled.

[elvis_knits]

I am still here. I still want to lynch CDB, but not sure where to go with my posts since neither CDB or Ether are around to answer my concerns about them. Also, it seems like nobody is really keen on lynching a lurker (who is also scummy). Seems like everyone just wants replacements.

I should comment on some other people though... I never reread Bluesoul and I haven't been paying too much attention to Elias's recent posts. I never found Elias that scummy, but I should be up to date on him, and enter into the discussion. Hopefully today, or tomorrow.

[elvis_knits]

I'm busy until the beginning of next week because of an art sale this weekend, so that's why I haven't been posting as much. I did feel like we were getting momentum back when CTD replaced into the game, and about half the players were posting regularly. Somehow we never have the full player list participating at any one time.

I still don't want to let go of my suspicions of Ether or CDB, but that is going nowhere and I think we have ot try to end this day.

Regarding Elias: I have only played with him once before and he was town. I know he has a reputation as awesomescum, but I was wondering if anyone knows what makes him so good as scum and what he does or does not do when he is scum. Which was a really long way of asking about his scum meta. Because I don't get such a scummy feel from him. The part that MBL quoted about Elias's read of me:

Here's your elvis analysis:

Certainly some bad posts in there. The main problem I have with her now that I've read over her posts myself is that she really seems to ignore a lot of major issues. Then, she picks up on something small, and makes a large post about it. I guess this is essentially lurking in plain site. In addition, she was pretty noncommittal early in the game. However, once attention was focused on her, she was forced to post about the meat of the game. Though shes had some bad posts late game, she has defended some of the major points against her well and overall improved the quality of her posting. I find her fairly scummy, but less so than DGB. As to whether she is in my top 3, its hard to say as I've only fully analized two players as thoroughly as I should.

Ok, so elvis is scummy because she:
1) ignores major issues
2) nitpicks
3) was noncommittal early
4) has improved since wagoned

I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm just sayin your bullet points are pretty weak. Couldn't you cite some specific elvis posts or cases to argue why you find her "fairly scummy"?

Elias' read seems actually sort of fair. I've noticed that things that seem like tells or important issues to me sometimes seem nitpicky to others. And sometimes I think the "big issues" are too obvious to be scummy, or I don't pursue it because I see someone else is so I try to hunt for original clue not already stated. So, while I disagree with the assessment of me, I can see how someone would feel that way legitimately. Obviously a lot of the people in the game have had problems with me.

MBL, (and anyone else who wants to comment), what don't you like about Elias's assessment of me? Is it just that you think it's an example of a bad post? Is it a bad post because it's general/noncommital/says a lot of nothing? Or am I missing something?

[elvis_knits]

I just realized that DGB said she won't have access until the 11th. Therefore, my last vote does no good for now.

unvote, vote: Ether

Are you voting her mostly for lurking or what?

I do think she is sorta scummy, and have given reasons, so I don't disagree with a vote on her. But if you're just voting for lurking, I don't understand why you would pick Ether over CDB. CDB is also a scummy lurker and he has two votes on him already. We need to get closer to a lynch, not spread our votes out.

If you think Ether is better than CDB, please make a case so that 1)I see you don't have a double standard with her and CDB and 2)Other people will say "OMG yeah we should end this day already and lynch Ether."

[elvis_knits]

If any other player is "pretty sure elias isn't scum" please stand up and cover CTD's back right now.

I actually don't think elias is that scummy. I haven't seen enough to make me want to vote for him. His throwing temper tantrums was bad, but I'm not sure t was scummy. And I never bought into the original reasons why he was scummy either.

MBL, do you think Elias' temper tantrum was faked? What about it felt off to you? Or do you think it was just anti-town and unhelpful?

[elvis_knits]

That's not why he was being run up. He was being run up for his dreadful analyses of DGB and e_k, and the fact that he only analyzed those two because they were the "popular" choices. He found PJ/pablito scummy but never went back to analyze him at all, which was glaring. I believe people ran elias up for nonparticipation and left their votes on him for the poor quality of his posts. I assume they wanted to hear more from elias from which to base a decision, and all they got was a bluesoul PBPA and a bunch of whining.

This is a good distillation of your case on Elias. Can't say I saw it that way when it was happening, but I appreciate the summary of your feelings.

[elvis_knits]

First three games I read of elias as scum, he posted one or two sentence posts and everyone let him coast through the game.

Then I read this one, and he spouted CAPITALIZED FUCK YOUS and RETARDS when he was at L-1. And continued that attitude throughout the game. And was scum.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6623

In this game, elias was scum and said that he was "done with this day" and that day ones are worthless for finding scum and such:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6869

In this game as scum, elias gets overdefsnsive after making a vote mistake and putting someone at L-1. Soon afterwards, he is bored of the game on D1 again.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5025

Elias lurked to victory in this game as scum:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6479

In this game as scum, elias is fairly active and when he gets in trouble counterattacks a player aggressively and gets him to back down:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6101

In this game as scum and a couple of the others, elias volunteers his own meta:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5221

In this game as town, elias survived a ton of attacks for his lurking. He got super overdefensive and angry, and called people MEAN NAMES IN CAPS.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5886

Conclusion: elias does a good job of hiding his meta but it does seem he gets disinterested/bored more often as scum and then scrambles to save himself from lurker lynch. He's earned his good record--he is VERY weaselly when under fire. His indignance sounds real.

I suggest that anyone who is thinking of clearing elias read a few of his other games before underestimating him. He is a clever monkey.

MBL, it looks like he does the same thing as town or scum (angry, name-calling). Why do you think this game fits his scum meta and not his town meta?

[elvis_knits]

Here's another game of Elias as town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60&start=0

I was town in this game too as Pink Puppy.

[elvis_knits]

Bluesoul downright refused to answer my legitimate concerns, and it irks me to no end that people just let him slide. How is that not scummy? Why aren't people voting him?

I forgot about that. Bluesoul was like "I don't have to answer your questions if I don't want to." What was that about?

At this point I am really fighting the urge to lynch just anyone to get to the next day. Also, nobody is picking up on my cdb case and pablito just unvoted ether. So that's pretty much dead. I could go for DGB or bluesoul lynch. I am still not keen on elias lynch.

unvote cdb; vote dgb

Going dgb because she has more votes already.

[elvis_knits]

Elias' PBPAs were meant to be boring, long lists that were extremely esoteric.

It was made to help himself find scum

, not to persuade others. [...] And that to me shows more evidence to his

lack of scumhunting.

At that point he tried to portray that he was looking, but he really wasn't. He seemed like he was going through the motions. That sounds scummy.

Seems to me that you're contradicting yourself.

I don't agree with pablito's read of Elias, but I also think DGB is misreading pablito here.

If you read his whole spiel, I don't think Pablito contradicts himself. I think pablito makes too many assumptions about what Elias intended (a thing that we can't know). But I don't think pablito contradicts himself.

[elvis_knits]

I don't agree with pablito's read of Elias, but I also think DGB is misreading pablito here.

[...] But I don't think pablito contradicts himself.

Really. Really.

Your defense of pablito is noted, scumbag.

I'm looking forward to the opinions of other players that are not so high on the scum list as you are.

You realize you are calling everyone who disagrees with you a scumbag, right?

[elvis_knits]

OMG, CDB's replacement is totally scummy. I'm surprised.

I'm not going to bother reading.

In fact, I'm also not going to bother thinking.

Vote: elvis_knits

If that's not an endorsement on my innocence, I don't know what is.

[elvis_knits]

I'm going to burst your bubble here. Mega-WIFOM I know, but Xyl's posts convinces me more readily of his innocence than it does yours. His perspective is original and refreshingly candid.

Voting me is not original.

You are promoting people don't read the game or think for themselves. That's dangerous and anti-town.

Elvis, I think you had an evil smile on your face when you typed the word "innocence" in the post above.

Sounds like proof to me...

[elvis_knits]

I would switch to xyl wagon if we thought we could finish it before deadline.

[elvis_knits]

An aggressive defense says that you're more worried about not being lynched than about finding scum.

Finding scum and keeping yourself from being lynched go hand in hand as duties of the townie. If you make it easy for people to lynch you, you increase the chance of other townies voting you, and decrease the ability for the town to find scum on your wagon the next day.

[elvis_knits]

I still think that DGB is scum. Yelling scumbag at anyone who votes her doesn't make her town. In fact it's pretty scummy.

I don't like pablito's (or xyl's) use of "overdefensive" against elias. That's a crap argument and they should know it. I don't care about any meta on him. You shouldn't be able to use that argument on anyone for any reason. It's too unreliable and open to manipulation. There's no real way to draw a line between someone who is defending themself, and someone who is over defensive. It's a house of cards.

People I would be willing to lynch as of now:
DGB
Xyl(CDB)
Pablito

[elvis_knits]

I could go for DGB or bluesoul lynch.

You may perceive this as me hounding bluesoul, and maybe I am. But mostly, I just want to know what happened to make Elvis in particular drop bluesoul off the lynch-table.

I think I was mostly glad to see him voting DGB.

And I've been hesitant to move off of her since I really think she's scum and she's one of the highest vote-getters.

Most of the reason I said I was willing to lynch bluesoul was his attitude toward you when you were questioning him... how he refused to answer you. Did he ever answer?

[elvis_knits]

unvote, vote: pablito.

I'm getting no support for a fuller claim from DGB, and I hate lynching claimed power roles.

MBL, if DGB was going to claim, she would have done it ages ago. If she was a pro-town power role, she knows she should claim.

I could get on the pablito wagon (for his "elias is overdefensive" comments"), although I feel very strongly that DGB is scum and don't want to jump off the largest wagon.

If there is more support for pablito, I will move.

[elvis_knits]

OMG I thought ether was scummy.

unvote dgb; vote lowell

[elvis_knits]

Bumping one of my posts on Ether:

ETHER

-Has been focused primarily on me all game. That's fine if she thinks I'm scum, but to fail to contemplate other people is bad. I think it's abnormal for a player to be SO sure of their suspicions of one person that they never want to go after anyone else. And in that sense, it is a bit of a scum tell as it's not normal townie behavior. (CTD said she tends to do this. Maybe. I don't remember it in PYP3, the other game I played with her).

-dislike of DGB wagon, yet wants her to claim and speculated A LOT on her role:

I mentioned DGB in passing twice up there, and am aware that she is the leading wagon. Eh. She should claim, I guess, but this is one of those things I wouldn't join outside of a deadline but can't be bothered to fight. Deadline in mind, assuming the votecount stays like this, I'll hop on around...let's say late Thursday, which would be about 60-72 hours after the deadline kicks in.

She still needs to claim.

DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling--I don't think her failure to claim could possibly be optimal, but I could see her doing it as town in at least one role. If she's a supersaint, she should stop playing jester and claim; those are stronger later. Please confirm or deny that?

I could totally see DGB making the statement in 316 as a supersaint, and as I've said, I wouldn't want to lynch her if she claimed that (if she's scum, there's still no harm waiting on a supersaint claim). But that's the only town explanation I do see. It could be a gambit as scum, and I don't like the way she hasn't posted since my statement.

Supersaint is a dead end claim. I have seen it used as a fakeclaim, yes, and I can see the psychology behind that, but in practice it's only a way to stall. It's a bonus lynch in three-player endgame, or possibly before that, depending on parity. It wouldn't even score a counterclaim the scum would be interested in.

This extreme interest in DGB to claim and her role speculating about supersaint is scummy to me because SHE DOESN'T EVEN THINK DGB IS SCUM. She's sort of waffly and says she thinks DGB is hard to read. Spending this much time trying to figure out a person's role when you don't even think they're scum is very scummy. It's role fishing.

Also, all the speculation about a supersaint had a lot to do with the stalling of DGB wagon, and the failure to lynch her (I blame MBL mostly, but I think Ether had a hand in it as well). I was the only one willing to hammer her, but never got the chance because the wagon swung away.

-This one is a small thing, but in her most recent attack on me she said:

I don't like Elvis's recent votehops: she picked up some flak for her MBLvote, then stayed quiet for four days and switched to CDB without another word on MBL. (She says there's a parallel to this in CDB's falling behind, but her spat with him doesn't seem worth lurking as scum--plus he later unvotes, so it doesn't work as a sinister way to keep a vote on her anyway. I'm not interested in any part of her case.) Having said that, I'd sort of expect her to be pushing a DGBlynch over a brand new wagon--I don't get why she's abandoned her DGBhate, regardless of alignment. Elvis, what is your opinion of DGB?

It bothered me that she said I "stayed quiet for four days," when she has been posting less and less, and it had been 5-6 days between posts for her when she said that about me. And now she hasn't posted for 2 weeks.

Also, I might have said this before, but WTF is she doing asking me what I think of DGB when I have consistently said I want her dead?

[elvis_knits]

MBL, please stop derailing wagons when people fart out soft claims.

[elvis_knits]

And look at the scummy timeliness of elvis's post 1157 on this very page! How is her being scum not obvious to everybody, I bang my head against a rock.

What are you even saying here?

Why do you think my post 1157 was scummy timeliness? It sounds like you think I knew lowell was about to post a soft claim so I posted my evidence first. Only way that would be possible is if me and lowell are scum and can day talk. Do you think the scum can day talk in this game? Or do you KNOW the scum can day talk in this game because you're scum?

[elvis_knits]

I don't get the Lowell wagon. I don't remember elias or MBL expressing any serious suspicions of Ether, and this doesn't strike me as the time for pressure wagons. Wassup with those votes?

We've been hopelessly deadlocked. Maybe a new wagon is good.

[elvis_knits]

What are you even saying here?

Why do you think my post 1157 was scummy timeliness? It sounds like you think I knew lowell was about to post a soft claim so I posted my evidence first. Only way that would be possible is if me and lowell are scum and can day talk. Do you think the scum can day talk in this game? Or do you KNOW the scum can day talk in this game because you're scum?

Are you insane, or are you just scum? Your scum daytalk insinuation is such a trashy tactic. You don't just sound like scum, you sound like desperate, manipulating scum.

Your sudden enthusiasm for an Ether/Lowell lynch burst into the game like firecrackers. You rushed to re-post some old stuff that you wrote. Considering that Ether didn't participate much, and Lowell just came on board, I'm shocked you haven't been tried, sentenced and lynched within a half a page.

You still are not explaining what you meant by I had "scummy timing." You're clearly insinuating something about my timing should prove I'm scum. If I'm wrong, why won't you explain what you meant?

unvote; vote DGB

[elvis_knits]

MBL, please stop derailing wagons when people fart out soft claims.

...says the player who flat out refused to claim.

So?

Soft claiming is far scummier than refusing to claim.

[elvis_knits]

Me.

[elvis_knits]

I'm scum with every player in the game, according to you.

[elvis_knits]

Hey Elvis, care to hammer?

No.

[elvis_knits]

This excludes every power role I know of, including every role in viewtopic.php?p=439892#439892. (I wrote that role list.)

Maybe you're looking too hard. Or maybe not. I'm doing like elvis and REFUSING to claim.

You can't retract your scummy soft claims. You can't unring a bell. Nice try though.

[elvis_knits]

Lowell: why did you kill chamber? You didn't express any suspicion over him yesterday.

Also, you said this when asked about Ether wanting DGB to claim even though Ether didn't seem to think DGB was scum:

Though I have a reason why Ehter wanted whoever that post refers to to claim.

What was the reason?

[elvis_knits]

It's worth considering that MBL violently attacked e_k for making the insinuation that there was a possible SK. MBL turning up dead could mean that e_k called his bluff and scumkilled him. It could also be scum planting circular logic based on this exact statement.

I totally called MBL was SK and MBL tried to insist that having an SK in the game was ridiculous. lol.

So, I could sort of see what you mean here because sometimes differing sucm groups attack each other very hard, etc.

BUT, I don't think it makes sense for me to be DGB's scum buddy. You say that it doesn't make sense for you to be her scum buddy since you were onto her from post 7. I tend to agree with you. Your behavior towards DGB doesn't suggest a strong tie. But I think the same is true for me. Give a little read to our interraction and see what you think.

Also, I think general consensus was that MBL was town. I don't remember anyone attacking him that hard except me. Certainly a wagon never really got rolling on him. Although I think Elias was voting him at certain times. Anyway, I mean to say that I think MBL was killed because he was thought to be town.

[elvis_knits]

I reread the first 25 pages last night. Not sure if I'll every get to the second 25 pages, but I did find some things I would like to bring up.

General feelings:
Scummy=Patrick, Ether/Lowell
Second tier scummy=IH/CDB/Xyl
Question on: Sarc(bird/CTD)
I need to read more closely on: OGML/HackerHuck and Elias
Townie=Bluesoul, PJ/Pablito

First I will tackle

PATRICK

:
Patrick repeatedly defended Ether citing a good meta on her. He also repeatedly tried to attach me to PJ around page 10. Scummier than attacking me or trying to connect me to PJ is a refusal to admit he was doing it:

Then this, which seems a bit manufactured:

After MBL's first analysis post, Ether asked you to comment on it. You've also not commented on bluesoul's wagon/alignment, which seems like a notable event in the game. Chamber's accusation against me, the suggestion of a bluesoul/Sarcastro link and the suggestion that Ether voted bluesoul whilst ignoring others who did the same as him all spring to mind as possible things to talk about. Any of those seem more relevant than what you highlighted.

Attacking people for not piping up on particular issues is not entirely logical. I see the wider point that e_k is going after a seemingly lesser issue, but.. still feels weird.

That wasn't an attack. Elvis asked what I wanted her to comment on, so I gave some suggestions. I wasn't saying that everyone should have definitively weighed in on every single issue, I was demonstrating why I thought she was ignoring the meat of the game. Did you read the context of that post?

Considering you were saying you had bad vibes from me, and were voting me, I of course considered it an attack. I think it's odd that you didn't consider it an attack since you were voting me. I assume when people who are voting start to criticize me, that it's an attack.

Secondly, I was not trying to connect you to PJ, I was questioning your consistency between two players; that need not imply a connection. For the record: I have considered the possibility that you're both scum, not really due to any strong connection, but just because I find you both scummy and see no disassociations. If you think that's unreasonable, I'd like you to explain why.

I can't remember asking you questions about connections to PJ.

To which I responded with

*birthday-bites-Patrick*

Should be good fun.

What do you think of elvis_knits?

Elvis, what do you think of PJ?

Plus there was the "elvis is parrotting PJ" piece of manufactured BS.

It all rolls into Patrick trying to connect me to PJ. And before you say "I ask other players what they think of each other quite often and it means nothing," realize you haven't asked me specifically to comment on any other player.

->Patrick's strange behavior around DGB:
-DGB softclaims and then Patrick unvotes her in post 285.
-When DGB was L-1 and made her horrible case against me, Patrick was the first to unvote DGB, and then hop onto my wagon.

ETHER

:
I've posted my thoughts on Ether's scumminess. Of more importance now is how she encouraged DGB to claim while maintaining that DGB didn't look very scummy.

Also, she was the second person to jump off DGB's wagon and flock to mine, yet said that DGB's case had no bearing on her vote change. Which basically has to be a lie since the timing is too convenient.

Not sure how I feel about Lowell's claim. If Chamber was actually MBL's kill, a mafia lowell could totally claim it. Although that will only work this one time since MBL is dead. So I guess we will easily see in future if lowell is not the vig.

IH/CDB/XYL

:

I believed CDB was wholeheartedly scummy for reversing himself about me and DGB. He first read the game and came to the conclusion that I was not scummy and DGB was scummy. Then changes his mind that I am scummy, while relying completely on DGB's read of me. Why would a player rely on a scummy player's read?

XYL has been kicking ass since coming into the game. I appreciate the cutthroat style, but I have too many issues with CDB.

SARC

(which turned into bird, which turned into CTD)
I don't have much of a problem with CTD, and I didn't look very much at bird. The thing I noticed about Sarcastro is that he votes DGB without giving any reasoning and his major contribution after that was just repeating "DGB is scum."

Here's the post where he votes DGB:

Right. MBL and I contrived and planned a random argument about percentages that was eventually refuted by the other party...when? At night? There hasn't been a night.

How do you know whether or not the scum were allowed to talk before the game started?

OGML, please explain what it is that you expected to me to comment on and why not commenting on it makes me scum.

Anyway, DGB is scum.

Unvote, Vote: DrippingGoofball

The reason why I think this could be scummy is that he gives no reasoning why he thinks DGB is scum or why he agrees with the wagon. Which seems to me like a buddy who doesn't want to be caught OFF the wagon if their buddy goes down.

I also think that bussing can look like this: voting the right person for a bad reason (or no reason). A townie needs some kind of evidence to realize when a person is scum... some kind of thought process. A scum buddy thinks they will look pro-town simply because they are voting for scum, and they don't bother as much with reasoning.

OGML/HACKERHUCK and ELIAS

Two players I don't have too many feelings on, and don't think I have read closely enough. I haven't found them very scummy and so have glossed over them a bit. I intend to do some better reading on them and get a more definitive feeling on them. But they have not lit up my scumdar.

BLUESOUL

I had some reservations about him yesterday -- the way he threw a tantrum when questioned by CTD. But I generally think his interraction with DGB looks like they are not scum buddies. I am interested to hear what CTD thinks of Bluesoul after DGB flipping scum.

PJ/PABLITO

I felt pro-town about PJ. I don't think he took advantage of Patrick and others' attempts to tie us together. As a scum, it would have been to his benefit to connect himself to me, or atleast sew a lot of confusion over this. He didn't.

Pablito hasn't been as friendly toward me (which I think is another point in his favor because he could have picked me up as pet townie), but after asking me questions, I felt he listened to my answers and tried to be fair. He was inquisitive without being unnecessarily attack-minded.

[elvis_knits]

So I guess we lynch Patrick.

vote patrick

[elvis_knits]

You defended a player YOU said you thought was likely to be pro-town. I don't agree that Ether's behavior was pro-town. And your defense of her seems a lot like you were buddying up to her.

Also, probably more important than any OMGUS feelings I have towards you was your behavior in regards to DGB that I outlined in the other post. Explain why you unvoted her when she made her first scummy soft claim and why you were so eager to unvote her when she was L-1 and she offered a completely reguritated case on me. You jumped ship awfully quickly there.

[elvis_knits]

Check it out:

---------------------

On current things, DBG isn't becoming any easier for me to read. I also am struggling to see what role could be better off being lynched than being in the open (supersaint is possible I guess, but rare, if that's what's going on, I want DBG to claim it right now). I could see this as a scum gambit and I could see DGB using it, add my name to the list of players who want a full claim. Without one, I'd be willing to go with a DBG lynch on the chance she's gambitting, it's a reasonably informative lynch anyway and I think she's done some scummy things. The wagon still worries me though, in part because of the stickiness of some of the votes on it, especially when DGB is an easy target if town, and because elvis's vote still seems a bit off; it's like she was building up to it in her previous two posts before the vote with what she asked DBG, and I'm not too convinced by her reasons. There's nothing outrageous here I can point too, but my gut dislikes it.

DBG, if you're town, please prove that you're not making up some story to confuse everyone, and claim your role. It's obvious that a bunch of people want you too, and I really can't think of any role where it would be better for you to be lynched than to have to claim.

My main dilemna is between DBG and elvis: which I want to lynch is affected by DGB's claim. I'll make it a priority to keep checking this game when on holiday: I think it pretty unlikely that we're going to be zapped by the day auto-ending particularly soon, but we have to err on the side of speed because of the unknown nature of it.

MBL: Have you got a top suspect/top two at the moment?
Elvis: In the post where you voted DGB, you said this:

Everyone is looking pretty townie right now.

I find that players make statements like that when:
1)they are trying not to scum hunt
2)they need an excuse why they are not scum hunting
3)they want to fly under the radar

Which seems to critisise her for only having a stance on one player (bluesoul). PJ has said he only has two real reads (on DBG and MBL), but you haven't mentioned that as bothering you. Maybe I'm not understanding the quote correctly, but if that's what it is, do you feel there are some differences between your issue here with DGB and PJ taking alot of middle ground?

Ether: Did you get anything from Thespival about DGB, or was that covered by "DGB's wagon is giving me a bad feeling"?

This post is very waffley on DGB.

Also, Patrick's criticism of my vote is really a defense of DGB. I mean, if I am unfairly voting her, it means I'm scum and she's town.

[elvis_knits]

When did DGB sound genuine to you?

You say you didn't like the soft claim, and it didn't influence your unvote of her. I think if you didn't like the soft claim, you wouldn't unvote her.

Also, you are saying DBG's analysis of me didn't influence you? How is that possible since you jumped directly on me? And I find it hypocritical that you are saying you weren't influenced by DGB, since after Ether said the exact same thing (that she wasn't influence by DGB) you questioned her about it.

I'm not arguing that the lynch need necessarily be DGB, but with her lurking and refusing to claim, that's what I favor right now.

Having said that, unvote; vote: elvis_knits. (Not influenced by DGB's analysis, but I'd prefer an Elvislynch anyway and their wagons are closer now.)

What changed your mind, if not DGB posting analysis?

[elvis_knits]

A reread has nearly convinced me that elvis_knits is not scum with DGB.

Elias, have you found the third mafioso yet?

I'll get back to you after we wagon Pablito.

We're wagoning Patrick now.

[elvis_knits]

The mere fact that DGB posted an analysis shouldn't make you think she's town. Scum post analysis too. Weren't you looking at the quality of the analysis? Especially considering your position that you didn't like her soft claim and her persistent refusal to full claim? Merely posting an analysis seems like a drop in the bucket considering the other serious problems you had with her.

[elvis_knits]

For reference:

278 ("Who has considered the possibility that I have a power role?") irritates me on several levels.

Argh, just lynch me already. Heres's a good reason: I now I want the scum to win. Really. The scum is walking all over us.

I see a bunch of people getting caught in trivial, but lenghty verbiage, everyone speaks smart but no one draws any conclusions, except the easy lazy ones. You have some players that chime in "DGB must die" "as long as DGB dies today" and you're just going along with it.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the town isn't playing and letting itself be carried by the scum.

Enjoy the ride, you deserve to lose.

Now go ahead and lynch me.

[elvis_knits]

My ass we deserve to lose. Find us the scum and explain why they're the scum, and you won't get lynched.

Right. Brilliant suggestion, MBL. There isn't a single thing I said that people haven't jumped on as being scummy, from my second post onward. You want me to "find you scum" or "get lynched." Like any of you have given me one inch of wiggle room to hunt scum. And having a role where a good strategy is not to draw mega-attention to oneself.

Get lost.

Just lynch me.

And here's my goodbye kiss to you.

unvote, vote: MrBuddyLee

- here's your scum on a silver platter. Maybe I don't want YOU to win after all, scumbag. DIE SCUM DIE.

[elvis_knits]

DGB's 291 and 293 seem like poor sportsmanship, emotional appeal, obnoxious manipulative stuff. I guess it could be seen as townie anger and implosion.

I wonder what others think.

[elvis_knits]

DGB's 291 and 293 seem like poor sportsmanship, emotional appeal, obnoxious manipulative stuff. I guess it could be seen as townie anger and implosion.

Well, obviously I know what they were now, lol. I think MBL agreed with me about those posts and pretty much everyone else saw them as lame at best, scummy at worst.

MBL was scum, remember?

DGB's analysis was fairly heavily centred around you and connecting/ disassociating people to you. That kind of analysis is rather narrow but often seen coming from stubborn townies who get carried away with theories and become convinced someone is scum. The issue is more whether I think analysis is genuine or not, rather than whether I agree with it. I saw it as a far better scumhunting effort than anything she'd done up until then, and her explanation for why she'd been away was plausible to me.

How do you judge if it's genuine or not without judging if you agree with it?

Especially considering your position that you didn't like her soft claim and her persistent refusal to full claim? Merely posting an analysis seems like a drop in the bucket considering the other serious problems you had with her.

It only dropped her one place on my list, it's not like I suddenly decided she was town. Do you find that position reasonable? Because pablito unvoted DGB in the post directly after for reasons which seemed at least partly to do with DGB posting analysis as well, and I notice you just glossed over that and said he's town.

I've gotten a town read from Pablito for different reasons.

I don't want to be unreasonable, so let's look at what Pablito said:

Gotta stop posting at night when I know I won't necessarily be sober.

@pablito, the main part for me to respond to is my post 261, which I assume was a comment on MBL’s activity. Of course, MBL posts content as both alignments. He’s doing more in this game than I’ve experienced in all 4 of my past games with him (3 of which he was scum). I don’t understand your interpretation of DGB’s half claim either, but even if she was following some convoluted scheme, I’d say it’s high time to realise that it’s not helping. Who do you suspect the most from your radar list? Presumably DGB is up there somewhere due to the vote, but who else?

On MBL - Patrick, I (and maybe foolishly so) tend to put MBL on the back of my mind early on because he's one of the types that posts a lot of content throughout the game. Furthermore, because of his early defensiveness, thanks to you Patrick, we have a lot of reasonable material on him so far. But we shan't forget him completely, but perhaps I have chosen to not think of too much scummy about him so far.

I suspect most Ether. It's a lot of gut, but it's how she pushes things from a secondary standpoint rather than being the initiator of arguments. I find it to be one of my...(damn, I forgot that mafiascum vocabulary word)...oh scum tells. Yeah, the fact that I remember Ether from my read through as someone attacking but not being on the defensive (at least until now), makes me highly suspicious. She's attacking from one of the most advantageous standpoints and I want to put her on the defensive.

Also, I mentioned something about Ether being serious and her defense really doesn't settle me well.

Ether, that's like shaving a goat's udder after it can no longer withstand the hail. I haven't said you have been not serious at all either. Furthermore, I don't remember saying anything about Ether's seriosity when discussing bringing up the supersaint.

I was referring to your page 1 I'm-being-more-serious-than-usual comment (my original post had a reference to the nicknames I gave out in Lights Out 2, but it was sort of tacky). You questioned my belief in my interpretation of DGB's statement here:

I highly doubt that DGB is even suggesting supersaint and I'm not sure Ether was either,

Again, I mentioned Ether being serious in my first post only. I did not intend to question Ether's belief in DGB's statement, I really want to question why Ether had to state it out loud rather than keeping it to herself. To me, it almost sounded like Ether was hypothesising aloud with a scumpartner and really tried hard to curtail or move direction of the discussion at that time. It's a valid thought, and I appreciate that Ether evaluated that alternative hypothesis, but saying the word "supersaint" really brought a discussion that veered everything one way and made us ignore a lot of other things. Because bringing up the role of supersaint will automatically lead us to think of something else - which is who in the town should make the hammer - thus forcing the town move away from a primary suspect and suddenly think about secondary suspects. Saying something like "role which may have adverse affects on hammering" doesn't pinpoint it as much but also brings awareness to the point that we should be aware and cautious about DGB's veiled claim.

DGB I don't know. I feel this is standard play for her, at least from what I remember. But these latest posts get me thinking...mostly that I truly don't get her. I think that due to recent events, I should drop my vote (if PJ's vote still stands), but right now, something doesn't feel so right to me. I just can't get beyond this whole supersaint thing. I agree that a supersaint or something similar could exist, I don't agree that DGB has insinuated such. If DGB does have a power role, I still feel uneasy, but this latest analysis looks promising, but I don't think it's the panacea everyone's looking for either. She remains on my list, but I really don't mind that the heat on her is beginning to dissipate. And I really enjoy that she's participating and she should not feel that her presence and participation is detrimental. As evidenced lately, it's very welcome.

On DGB pointing out me mistaking IH for OMGL, yes, I agree. I made a mistake. I only looked at the backgrounds in the icons and failed to read names. Really bad excuse. That shouldn't change my opinion on either though. That post in isolation does not do more to think better of OMGL or worse of IH. I am quite sloppy, so I don't see what difference it should make to DGB though. I tend to write mostly from memory and I don't take notes, so I will make mistakes. Furthermore, I came into this game with a few pages before me. I am missing out on a lot of the intricacies of interactions between players. I primarily went on post-content to make my initial impressions.

On IH. If he's lurking, I don't care, actually. I at least know his style. As for Elias, I know little.

I am curious to hear what OMGL might think about me confusing him for IH.

I can agree that by reading the posts (as a third party), it really did seem like elvis was hiding behind PJ. I don't know what PJ was doing though. However, despite all this talk about e_k, I'm not sure I have a good sense on her as I do for others I've mentioned. I will need to re-read her posts sooner than later.

I admit I'm pleased with bluesoul's latest posts. It's starting to change my initial opinion on him. Originally he was one of my strongest suspicions, but now Ether and Sarc take that position, with DGB earning the benefit of doubt.

unvote: DGB

for extra breathing room. I can't wait to hear more analysis.

Feel free to argue what you don't like about this post. I think some of it isn't so great regarding DGB. In a way it echoes some of your feelings, which I don't like. Although coming off MBL giving a *standing ovation* and you unvoting DGB, I don't think it mattered too much what Pablito did. The wagon was dying.

[elvis_knits]

I agree some of the attacks he made on you were bad, i.e. he said you were overdefensive.

But can you elaborate on his double standard between you and DGB?

[elvis_knits]

Elias -- I read your post on pablito. It's mostly criticising his attacks on you, and not really a comparison to his treatment of DGB.

Patrick -- What I like about Xyl doesn't have to do with allignment. It's mostly a style which is not shy to vote and get this game moving. That's what I like about Xyl. I have lingering problems with CDB, and that alone is enough for me to put Xyl down as a person of suspicion. Xyl's play is a bit hard to read since its "obv aggressive." One thing I did think is that DGB's self-vote was pretty much giving her scum buddies permission to vote/hammer her. I think that DGB might have signalled more than once for certain players to vote her, since she made the same kind of obnoxious statements the first time she was almost lynched. I am interested in looking more at people's reaction to her self-destruction. Xyl is a prome example of a person that should be looked at in this regard.

[elvis_knits]

Xyl -- I don't get it either.

[elvis_knits]

Okay but how does it change anything?

[elvis_knits]

OGML, on the other hand,

did

comment on DGB before getting replaced, and I don't like it at all.

How to say this.. I don't think a supersaint is likely, and if DGB is a supersaint then I would have expected her to actually claim so. This would allow the town to come to a group consensus on who should hammer.

If DGB is a supersaint/wants to claim supersaint, she should do it soon. I'm willing to be the hammer with or without her outright claiming to be a supersaint, because I think its already unlikely she's actually an ss (as I said earlier), and I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway.

Note that he doesn't state his opinion on whether he's actually suspicious of DGB (and for the record, he never did during his whole stint in the game). It strikes me as very odd that he seems to operate under the mindset that DGB is either Supersaint or scum, when the possibility of her being a SS was brought up by a third party (Ether) and never commented on by DGB herself. That DGB could be a different power role or simply a townie playing very weirdly doesn't seem to even cross his mind. And finally, he volunteers to hammer her to test her supposed supersainthood, which obviously wouldn't be a problem for him if he was scum. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on HackerHuck as I continue rereading, and am bumping him towards the top of my list for the time being.

I tool that post as OGML willing to hammer DGB if the town was intent on lynching her. But no real judgement of her as scummy or not. I thought he wasn't keeping up with the game and was willing to take the chance of being killed by a SS, which would let him out of the game as opposed to being replaced (which he was).

I see your point that he shouldn't have been willing to hammer just anyone. I did not originally read it that same way as you: that he thought she was either SS or scum. I thought he just wasn't caught up and was willing to help the town by hammering if they needed it. But you could be right.

---

Patrick... please elaborate on my you think bluesoul is scum, or may be scum. Because even CTD, who was all over bluesoul yesterday does not seem very suspicious of him at this point.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm, maybe I was thinking of Pablito's read of bluesoul.

CTD -- can you elaborate on your bluesould thoughts and how they may have changed (or not) since yesterday?

[elvis_knits]

So I'm unsure, but there's at least two people (Xylthixlm and HackerHuck) who I'm more interested in.

Xyl I would be interested in, HH, not so much.

[elvis_knits]

e_k, I don't think I've had many suspicions of bluesoul today. Yesterday I did have some, but not today.

I think that's what I said.

[elvis_knits]

Maybe, except I still think Patrick is scum. I know we've discussed most of my reasons... I just still think he's scum. But, yeah, you're my number two.

Xyl... you're voting elias. From what I can tell, you're voting him because he didn't understand your point about Pablito. Which seems like a bad reason. Do you think he was faking it (that he didn't understand you)? Or am I misunderstanding why you are voting him?

And why are so many people sitting back/stalling? I've been waiting for people to do rereads or whatever they were doing, but many people aren't contributing very much.

[elvis_knits]

I do not believe defending yourself aggresively is scummy.

And as for the rest of your reasons, why didn't you give them when you voted him?

[elvis_knits]

I'm ambivalent about a mass claim.

[elvis_knits]

Nobody wants to help me kill Patrick?

I'm not sure how I feel about HH. I remember thinking that when he replaced in he was scummy because he blindly voted me. Somewhere along the way I think I had second thoughts on him though I can't remember exactly without rereading him...

which I will do now...

or tomorrow at latest.

[elvis_knits]

I don't have time to go through all his posts ATM...

Quick overview reveals:

HH liked DGB's case on me. Perhaps I'm biased, but it seemed like regurgitated crap to me.

HH didn't vote me right away even though he said I was definitely the lynch for the day. When Elias had 5 votes, DGB unvoted Elias, moved her vote to me, and the immediately after that (the next post) HH moves his vote to me. This turn of events is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=721

That whole exchange is very suspect to me.

I may vote HH after I give a better read. Quick look tells me I have problems with him.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not a strategy person, so I'm not good about knowing when we should massclaim. I'm not good at making plans or outguessing the mod. I would go either way.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I really am slow at strategy, so people will have to comment on these thoughts and correct where necessary.

I did think of one thing: it seems the PRs in the game are famous player names (mith, Adel). So scum will either have to try to fake a player or go townie (unless they have safe claims, which they probably don't since DGB didn't claim anything).

The up-side to this is even if the claim doesn't help us too much today, the scum are locked into their claimed role. So depending on the other roles out there, we may be able to catch them lying. We may be able to catch them lying about choices through other pro-town roles. Or we may be able to catch them making a choice when they shouldn't have made one (like if they claimed townie).

The downside is all power roles are exposed.

Does that cover everything?

[elvis_knits]

That HackerHuck non-defense was entirely uninspiring.

I know. I like how he didn't even reply to any of the stuff I wrote about him.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm...

unvote Patrick; vote HackerHuck

L-1.

[elvis_knits]

I would vig Patrick.

[elvis_knits]

It mostly seems like Patrick is afraid of being vigged, so that's why he wants to know who the target is.

I see another downside to lowell declaring: depending on the target's allignment, scum may choose to kill lowell or not.

[elvis_knits]

Someone should hammer.

[elvis_knits]

I am vanilla (nameless newbie). That's why I didn't want to claim (because I knew vanilla couldn't help me live longer, and wouldn't help the town determine my allignment. So I just said I wouldn't claim and ot lynch me if you thought I was scum.)

I think it was awesome that lowell lied and drew the nightkill... that's optimum for us.

I am surprised he wasn't protected though.

I would like Patrick or CTD to go next...

I pick CTD I guess.

[elvis_knits]

Simulpost!

Oh well, I hope I didn't screw the order now.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry patrick!

[elvis_knits]

I just wanted to get things going and I thought by claiming I could pick the next person...

[elvis_knits]

Any reason why Bluesoul and pablito claim power roles without player names? It looks to me like scum and power roles all have player names associated with role... mith - godfather(DGB), Adel - sk(MBL), pie_is_good - vig (lowell)...

[elvis_knits]

How many scum do you think are in this game? Two are dead already.

[elvis_knits]

I believe Patrick, and I think Pablito is scum.

The fact that Pablito claims to be Rosso Carne just does not fit with a Priest role. Rosso is KNOWN for his awesome hammering ability... so making Rosso Carne unable to hammer makes no sense.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Rosso joined 23 Apr 2006... all the player names in the game seem to be people to who joined previously to our group... previously to the 2005 people.

[elvis_knits]

I was trying to stop bashing on you repeatedly...

So if Pablito is scum, which looks like the deal here, I'm thinking CTD could be the last one.

It was slightly suspect that Bluesoul didn't claim his player right away, but I tend to think cubsfan could be a legitimate claim. I want to look up his join date though. Cubsfan isn't as strong as... seol (which seems to fit fabulously). But I could possibly see cubsfan as a player in this setup, especially considering Shea wrote it.

I don't think Elias is scum with Pablito since Elias has been dead set against Pablito for almost the entire game and not even really pursued anyone else.

I guess Xyl is a possibility too, although I'm feeling more and more like he's town. Patrick has the result that XYl didn't go anywhere N1... which is a point for Xyl but doesn't clear him.

[elvis_knits]

Looking up cubsfan4ever -- joined date Jan 2005. That's sort of on the cusp I guess. But there's also a cubsfan4life that joined April 2004. They both have the same location so I'm wondering if they're alts and the guy has been here since 2004. Although I guess it makes sense for a cubsfan to be from chicago... so maybe they are not any relation.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Rosso joined 23 Apr 2006... all the player names in the game seem to be people to who joined previously to our group... previously to the 2005 people.

This is not accurate, by the way. Adel joined in May 2007.

On the whole, I don't think trying to metagame the mod when it comes to role-names is gonna help us.

Hmmm... you're right.

Luckily, we don't have to use my stupid meta joined date info.

Xyl's plan is right. We vote pablito to L-1 and make him hammer. If he lives, we know he's town and Pat is scum. If he dies... yay!

And Patrick is right about Bluesoul being almost confirmed simply because town needs another PR. And Bluesoul confirms Xyl through his results.

I think there's probably another scum... I mean maybe there was a sucm team of two and the game is over. If it's not over, I say CTD is scum. Elias bussed pablito too hard to be his partner, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

Also, Rosso joined 23 Apr 2006... all the player names in the game seem to be people to who joined previously to our group... previously to the 2005 people.

This is not accurate, by the way. Adel joined in May 2007.

On the whole, I don't think trying to metagame the mod when it comes to role-names is gonna help us.

Also, you may be right, but you're also defending pablito-scum.

[elvis_knits]

CTD looking scummier by the post. His arguments getting more desperate. I often see scum try to argue the most unlikely scenarios -- like rosso carne making any sense as a legitimate priest claim, or the set-up being at all balanced with two scum groups vs. town with only one-shot vig and tracker.

[elvis_knits]

Patrick, you think pablito could fail the hammer and still be scum?

As to night choices... I'm not sure bluesoul and Patrick should coordinate. Keep the scum guessing, I say. But whatever. Either way we will get a result from one of you even if the other dies. I agree on checking CTD or Elias though. I think CTD is scummier.

[elvis_knits]

Previously I didn't think so, but his bravado kind of worries me I have to admit. Eh, maybe he's just bluffing in the hope we put him to -1 quickly and he can cut off discussion. A lack of ability to hammer is so rare as a quirk anyway, so I don't see any compelling reason why he couldn't have it as the scumbag that he is.

If he can't hammer himself, and demonstrates it, that makes him look less guilty to me... and more like you're scum. However, I can think of scenarios where maybe he's still scum and you're telling the truth. I mean, maybe he has a scum PR and loses his vote the following day when he uses his power? I dunno (now I'm the one making up out-there scenarios). But I could see his vote not counting for some reason, which would allow him to prove the hammer-fail, and also allow him to be scum.

So I could go along with still lynching him... but if he turns up town, Patrick, you die tomorrow.

Bluesoul -- I see what you mean about wanting two investigations on one person to cover for GF ability.

[elvis_knits]

1) You don't have the quirk you claim to have, and you just claimed carelessly. I could see you overlooking it or being drunk.

lol

[elvis_knits]

PABLITO, it's time for you to (kill/try to kill) yourself!

BYO Noose.

[elvis_knits]

Not sure how I feel about the Pablito lynch now. I probably would not have had the balls to hammer him. But hopefully he's scum.

[elvis_knits]

vote: elias

[elvis_knits]

SUCK ONNNNNE!

Sorry Xyl

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I forgot how many players were left and thought I was helping you get to hammer!

[elvis_knits]

WOOOOO! I am so glad I held myself back from attacking Patrick relentlessly after the first few days. Very fun and challenging game. I felt strongly that DGB and MBL were scum at the beginning, but I had basically confirmed pablito in my mind and thought elias was town too. So I'm glad that Patrick and Bluesoul were able to help out with results. And Xyl should really get some "I've got balls" award. Lowell did good job drawing the NK.

[elvis_knits]

I can't wait for MBL to post.

[elvis_knits]

I wanted to choke MBL all through D1, but our fights now have a warm spot in my heart.

MBL made an excellent performance as SK. Personally, I don't think SK's have to have as much of a chance at winning as other players. That's why it's so fun and challenging.

You know, if we have lynched Elias (which we almost did), mafia probably wouldn't have killed MBL, right? Game would have been very different. Although, I think MBL was onto PJ too, somewhat, so maybe he would have died anyway.

MBL's bravado was awesome and still makes me laugh...

My comment demonstrates the strangeness of MBL's level of certainty that I am scum, but only contemplates that I am mafia. Why doesn't he contemplate that I am an SK? Why is he so absorbed in finding my scum buddies before he actually finds out if I am scum or not?

This is bizarre. First off, it's unlikely that there would be a serial killer in an invitational game..

*facepalm* yes, I'm scum, I've just given up the ghost.

[elvis_knits]

It's sad you guys won't be coming back but it was fun playing with you.