Mini 650: Over

[hitogoroshi]

Vote Inquisitor JL

- there's red in your avvie, that's the mod color.

[hitogoroshi]

Light-Kun...what the hell, man? It's like you're trying to suspect as many people as you can, so you can claim "reason" to bandwagon anyone you like at a moments notice. Townies need to hit the scum, scum can hit anyone. Post 42 strikes me as really scummy.

FoS: Light-kun

[hitogoroshi]

I'll join the random-vote-be-gone movement, then.

unvote

And someone2, what exactly do you mean by "content"? It's page 3. Are you really saying "he's suspicious because he posts a lot"? Or is he suspicious because he's not throwing out wild accusations?

And post 52 makes total sense. He's pointing out that the self-vote is not suspicious. Why would it be? Was he thinking, "HAHA, I AM SCUM BUT NO ONE WILL POST VOTE LIGHT-KUN OH SHI-"? Now, I still think post 42 is a scummy looking post, but the random vote doesn't mean anything.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP

For clarity, when I say

Was he thinking

I'm referring to Light-Kun.

[hitogoroshi]

Light-Kun, for the love of feline jesus, please slow down. It's as SirD says, where this need to plunge into the limelight does look very very scummy. However, that's partly because you insist on posting three times as much as everyone else, so you're certainly where we are all focusing on. And I'm not going to throw down a vote when I haven't seen much of anyone else. (That's my play style - very conservative with my vote, as opposed to those who use it as a pressure tool. This tends to make me the hammerer.)

But, as I said, you seem to be extremely jumpy, and using a lot of words to talk about a little suspicion. So if you're townie, slow down so the town can talk about other things and get more evidence down. If you're scum, by all means, continue leaping around and suspecting people for no reason.

[hitogoroshi]

...And I'm not going to throw down a vote when I haven't seen much of anyone else. (That's my play style - very conservative with my vote, as opposed to those who use it as a pressure tool. This tends to make me the hammerer.)...

Huge

FOS: hitogoroshi

for this playing style. Holding back your vote so as to not give out unneeded information is a standard scum tactic.

So, rather than just having the style, I'm scum for saying it...? If you really want, do the meta analysis of my last game (Newbie 620). It's how I played then, as town, and it's how I'm playing now, as town. I just thought I'd say why I'm not bandwagoning people just for not posting. Sheesh.[/url]

[hitogoroshi]

Whoa, geez, I missed the vote in L-K's post 114 until Sens quoted it. That's...buh...what? Where the hell did that come from? "Her play seems kind of evasive" is a reason to vote? When I said in post 93-

But, as I said, you seem to be extremely jumpy, and using a lot of words to talk about a little suspicion. So if you're townie, slow down so the town can talk about other things and get more evidence down. If you're scum, by all means, continue leaping around and suspecting people for no reason.

-I didn't think you'd continue leaping around and suspecting people for no reason. You have to be the ballsiest scum I've ever seen. But, uh...town would have no reason to do that. So you've shot yourself in the foot here.

Vote: Light-kun

[hitogoroshi]

Of the remaining six, there is nothing particularly scummy except Brandi's lack of meaningful post. So, I have moved my vote to her and it will remain there until she responds or until someone does something that screams scum.

@Sensfan: Fantastic that you have your "own" opinions, and you think that my posts are complete and utter "bull." But, how about giving reasons as to why they're bull and then I can tell you why they're wrong. And don't give me any BS that the reason is obvious. If you want to have a vote on me, fine, but more reason than "Your posts are bull" should to be given. And oh yeah, "He is obvs scum" is not a reason either.

Why does he need more reason to vote you than you need to vote Brandi?

[hitogoroshi]

Hito. what makes you think that LK is the most likely scum at this point?

He just seems to be "suspecting" anyone he thinks he can, but melting away when faced with any real resistance. I know if I think someone is scum, and I meet resistance, I push and push rather than just saying "Oh, he can't be scum, he said so." Whereas L-K basicially tried to suspect someone, failed, and then said "LOL ME BEIN DUMB ^-^" before moving on and voting someone else to start the whole cycle anew.

[hitogoroshi]

I've gotten that before, actually, but quite frankly I think my style works too well as townie to change it. When people get into a big back-and-fourth chain I tend to lie low. This lasts until something really pings my scum-dar. (In this case, L-K.) At that point, I jump in with a post explaining my reasoning and either vote or throw down suspicion (in this game, it was post 145.)

What I do next depends on the reaction my "surprise" post gets. If I get a counter-argument or chainsaw defense, I push harder and try to break the (probably) scum. If I get an argument that I perceive as townie (obviously, if I post my criteria, it'd cheapen the game) I let off the vote. If the person on the other end tries to ignore the argument, I leave the vote on but don't continually try to justify it (hoping to catch who I know believe is scum in another trap.) The third case happened now, with L-K's brushing off of both the vote and my other post answering afat on why I think he's scum (He doesn't disagree with the logic on why I think he's scummiest? If someone voted me, I'd disagree a hell of a lot. I wanna live!)

So, yes, I do still L-K is scummy, but I don't want to constantly affirm that I think that. I want to wait for more evidence - which is easiest to obtain when someone doesn't know I'm watching so closely.

Of course, with this post, that's all pretty well out the window. But that's fine. L-K interacted with everyone, so there will be content to look back on. (At this point, it'll take quite a bit of convincing to take me off lynching L-K.)

[hitogoroshi]

so im going to ask questions to keep you active. lol so im pretty sure from that last post that LK is your top scum pick, but who would be your second choice?

Well honestly I haven't gotten any major scum tells from anyone else. But assuming LK flips scum, I'm going to go with FFB. He seems to have been pushing a lurker policy lynch on Brandi, but I cannot find a single instance of him so much as noticing FFB. You'd think he'd be on him like stink on a monkey, if he wanted lurkers.

[hitogoroshi]

Bussing is something that could certainly happen. But L-K has, in fact, throw out accusations regarding lurking to everyone BUT FFB, who seems easily the most prominent candidate if you were going to hunt lurkers. Instead, he focuses on Brandi, saying multiples times that it's because she lurks. Why no mention of the biggest lurker of them all?

That scenario is one that is plausible, but that's a bit entry level, and I think that ignoring your partner seems to be more plausible than the basic bus. This is especially in light of his multiple "mistakes" - perhaps he's too afraid of having a telling when talking about his scumbuddy and so is ignoring him entirely.

I'll post afat's question to L-K, but slightly modified - LK, why did you single out Brandi and not FlyingFoxBat?

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP for clarity

When I say "that scenario" at the start of the second paragraph, I'm talking about afat's theory. Also, I meant "afraid of having a tell", not telling - damn -ings, I had so many of em in the sentence I didn't wanna stop. :p

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, wow, explosion of activity.

As it happens, I HAVE done some extensive meta on Sensfan. I'm following a couple of games that I'm not in, and he's in one of them. He has in fact acted like this before, in games he was/is town/probably town. Of course, I think it's a rather fruitless endeavor when all this day one fighting is just little squabbles with very little hard evidence. I'd like to go to day two, but if a townie wants to keep it going may as well keep it going.

[hitogoroshi]

Now that LK is cleared (at least until someone counter claims)

Nope. I still happen to think he is more likely to be Scum than anyone else.

This is pretty much where I stand. Looking back, I still don't see most of what I perceive as scumtells making sense as coptells. It's kind of hard this late in the day to change my lynch target, and I'm not sure who to aim for when I don't have the concrete information of a lynch + NK I was waiting for. But, whatever,

unvote

. I'm here, just a bit unsure about where to proceed.

[hitogoroshi]

And seeing as he already said that in post 347, you seem to be asking, only you don't want to overtly ask. Why is that?

And KMD, why the FoS for attacking someone attacking someone mentioning power roles? That seems stupidly hypocritical.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, I get it. That afat quote at the top makes sense now. Sorry for the mistake.

Honestly, I think D1 CAN go too long for town, to the point when the scum can conjure"cases" when people were just making idle conversation because the game is so stagnant. I think we've hit the point where we're just going to kill each other if we don't hit D2 soon. So I'm going to be more malleable than usual. But, like KMD, I want a vote count first. The claim has certainly shook things up.

[hitogoroshi]

Erm, that's not what I said? What I said is that if D1 goes on too long, people will just end up talking for the sake of talking and the scum can use it as evidence. So I think we just need to end it SOMEHOW, before "I just want to talk" gets mixed in with evidence. In fact, "I'm going to be more malleable than usual" is basically saying "I'm willing to be less persuaded that we should lynch this person, because we need to move on."

[hitogoroshi]

Actually...

vote afat

Now that I think about it, I don't believe the claim.

To some extent I agree. I believe L-K's claim even less. But it's really something you shouldn't do. Of course, I feel frustration, because I agree with sirdan -

A lot of information is good, but honestly I wouldn't want to see a 100 page day 1, since I would refrain myself from re-reading the game and posting pbpas since it would be too much work. This may seem a bit irrelevant at first, but practical things like these actually do matter. It allows scum to hide in a dense fog of 100 pages full of pointless discussions about irrelevant game theory, semantics or discussions between two people that don't really amount into anything, while actually useful things like bandwagons, good constructive posts or even scum slips may be left unnoticed.

and want this day to be over. But lynching claimed is something I still really, really, don't want to pursue.

Though it's interesting, two times we came to the brink of a lynch and two times claims swoop in at the last minute. I've got a little theory brewing.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah, I've been considering the net equity of it. A few hitches, but pretty far into the black for a D1 scheme. My plan kind've flew out the window when L-K claimed, so for now I'll gladly follow this plan for the day and let Sens wear the active pants. (Though with all of the digs on my playstyle, I was kinda hoping to kick in into high gear. Aw well, we've got time.)

Though I still disagree about wanting 100 pages of info. One of the key tests for divulging evidence is "Why did they say this instead of saying something else?" When they've said everything, that's not possible. Of course, it's easier to catch people avoiding a particular interaction with more content, but there is still a too long. I think of it as a parabola, and I think we've hit a relative maximum already. With these new events, a few more pages will be just swell and dandy, but beyond that I think we should get ready to go to sleep.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey, news flash, OC. We talked about my playstyle over ten pages ago. Yes, a lot of people don't agree with it, but if you have a problem, why not bring it up then? I'll admit that this post shows you put almost no force behind votes, but I try to be more deliberate with mine. I've said this before, and really, move on. If you think I'm hiding something, ask me on THAT.

[hitogoroshi]

FINALLY, a chance to go in with an advantage and some bona-fide evidence.

OC, I'm sorry about blowing up a bit there. (Too defensive is a logical fallacy, but too agressive? Yeah, maybe, it's been a bad week.) I was a bit peeved because you brought up statistical analysis up in a way that didn't really do anything but accuse me, and it looked like a dirty attack that I had to quick counter. But I see now it was just more for activities sake.

I'll try to be more involved tomorrow when there's a concrete foundation to speculation. Honestly, L-K is still the only one who really sets off my scum-dar, but the night actions should shed some light on things.

Vote: afat

.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm here. Doing a full-reread with the three pieces of definitive information.

[hitogoroshi]

Okay, I haven't nearly finished looking at all the angles, but here's something. Afat's post 352:

i do agree that we should all state our suspect of who we would like to see lynched, but im not even sure if we have enough people voting to make a lynch. and i think we need to hear from everyone instead of half the group before making a decision.

with all that said, until more people post, my vote goes to Someone2. he seems to be lurking a little too much. the last few posts from him have been PBPA, which i don't like too much because he doesn't seem to take a stance on anything. he analyzes each post, then leaves it at that instead of maybe summarizing his thoughts about that character afterwards and taking a stance on that person one way or another.

so... Vote: Someone2

This came DIRECTLY after SirDans PBPA. Someone2 had done one a couple of pages early. Now, SirDans was (and don't take offense, someone) vastly more incriminating than someone2. I can understand not wanting to clash with that - if SirDan isn't town, that was an extremely elaborate bus. But was someone2's deliberately bad? I'm not quite sure.

I still haven't gotten a new scum lead yet (and my last one was L-K, so that could be a good thing) but I see both Sens and SirDan as town.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito - The "trust me I'm town in this game", twice.

Hey now. I'm not trying to say "trust me I'm town". I'm trying to say my style is not inherently scummy. There has been next to no real complaint of my CONTENT. It's always been "Everything he says is good, but I don't like HOW's it's said." I'm merely asking you don't judge my posts based on how I participate, because this is just my style. I don't plan on saying more, because frankly, there wouldn't be much content and that would look much more scummy than only talking when I have something helpful to say. Now, if you have any real complaints, I'm happy to hear them. I'm not trying to garner trust - do you have any reason for putting me on your scumdar that's actually related to the game?

Sheesh, I'm sick of having to go over this. People constantly suspect me because I don't post as much as some others. Can we get to talking about what's IN the posts?

SirD and Omni - You both got on SensFan for the "trust me I'm town" bit when Hito had done it twice before that. I didn't notice anything from either of you about Hito's comments.

Me and Sens both did entirely different things, and neither of them were "trust me I'm town." I defended my playstyle, and he posted in a way to get unbiased responses without tipping off scum. Personally, I have no problem with it, but I can see what SirD and Omni didn't like about it. Townies like to be in control - but personally, I'm willing to ride the wave for a bit because it tells you a hell of a lot about the controller. Right now, I'm pretty sure Sens is town from his action. (But, question for you, Sens. Why so sure about SK? There are a few ways sanities/third parties could play in to this.)

[hitogoroshi]

It's been a week since I last posted *bleh* so, since I haven't seen rebuttal of my direct quote of Hitogoroshi,

Post 512? Hi.

combined with SensFan's overzealous defense of my analysis on a couple of metagaming aspects.

Vote : SensFan
FoS : Hitogoroshi

I'm voting for SensFan instead of Hito because - While similar, the two "playstyle" explanations were different enough that I didn't see anything wrong with

SensFan's. Just with Hito's.

SensFan jumping in and seeming to get exceptionally worked up about me being suspicious of Hito doesn't sit well with me.
My basic premise is - I think they are a scum pair, at least SansFan being scum and worked up over an accusation that could (possibly) be carried over to him. So if SansFan comes up scum, I will vote for hito. If Sans comes up town - I'd go back and check hito out more. Still suspicious, but with a town Sans, enough scummy would drop that I wouldn't vote based on the playstyle stuff itself.

Then why the hell wouldn't you vote me?

This is the only thought process I can think of that would allow what you've done-

I am scum > Sens scares me > he and hito do kind of the same thing > make it seem like I'm blaming hito but get sens killed anyway

Hey, sick of my don't vote hastily playstyle? THEN DO I HAVE A DEAL FOR YOU.

Vote:fyzxs

Though, KMD, if your spirit is still out there I haven't forgotten to keep an eye on omni.

[hitogoroshi]

My direct quote is in post 516. Your 512 response isn't sufficient.

Well, at least you had the courtesy to not be evasive about it. Thanks for that.

You are defending your play style, fine. Good for you, If you simply left is as "It's how I played in this game" that I wouldn't feel that you are attempting to gain trust.
You are still saying that you did it as town, and you are doing it now as town; Which is attempting to garner trust through metagaming (which doesn't belong).

Wait a minute. What? Seriously? You're saying that you think I'm scum specifically because I said "as town"? That is the biggest mess of WIFOM I've ever heard. Is that seriously your entire reason for suspecting me?

[hitogoroshi]

Whelp, sorry for not posting. I've been following, but I haven't been able to formulate coherent thoughts lately. But I can at least answer questions!

Now, hito was pretty much tunnel visioned against Light-Kun for the entire day, so I'm not at all suspicious of his doubt of that claim. But having never presented suspicion of afat before this point, I think it's odd that he'd say he doubts his doc claim. Why did you doubt it, hito?

Context. If it was a cop claim, I would have been completely convinced. Any other non-doc claim, I would have at least thought about it. But he was acting in basically the most non-doc way possible. Doc is easily the favored of scum to claim if cop is taken, which makes a lot more sense then the worlds most aggressive medical professional.

[hitogoroshi]

Ok. I buy that explanation.

Everything Electra has posted seems 'not scummy' to me based on that particular mindset, and it makes sense. If 2 people die tonight tho (i.e. there is a SK) then I would consider axing Electra.

-----

Moving on:

Vote sirdanilot

What sirdanilot has said in various posts strikes me as particularly scummy. For reasoning, I looked back through Electra and Iamausername's posts and responses you made and while their posts make sense considering their perspectives, yours do not.

Perhaps my biggest 'scum' reading on you is that your responses are a mixture of 'informed mafia' pretending to be a 'good townie'. You can't have your cake and eat it too when your actions are a contradiction.

Corvuus

Care to show any posts outlining this? I'm not being hostile, I'm actually curious. I haven't found anyone that I've perceived as really scummy and I'm looking for an argument I agree with.

Also, sorry for the lack of posting. I just haven't been able to think of anything to say. It all seems to be a lot of back-and-forth without any really scummy actions but a lot of arguing.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah, I've been pretty passive as well. I think I'm going to PBPA a certain person who I won't name as to catch them by surprise.

[hitogoroshi]

People I have been ad hominem'd by: 3

Your face is ugly and it smells.

It's National Novel Writing Month but I'm not gonna replace out because thankfully this game is slow as molasses anyway. If it was fast I'd have to leave! :3

I only have one half-hearted scum read that I don't want to defend now, but I'll say town reads since those are expected to be more gut. I find myself trusting SirD, Sens, and Iamusername. If you three ever all agree on something, I do as well!

[hitogoroshi]

Unvote

because clearly Sens is just moral and not scum, and I'm sorry I accused you of that. I might change my mind again if it turns out you ARE scum, buster!

Vote: sirdanilot

honk?

I do believe you have locked horns with every player I have gotten a read on. Perhaps not to vote on, but it certainly doesn't make me want to move the vote I threw down on fyzxs.

[hitogoroshi]

I think you meant to say "Every player I have gotten a town read on."

If that's what you meant, I withdraw my statement.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, I'm a bit muddled up right now.

I'm going to my friends timeshare Thursday. I'll be back mid-Saturday, so no big deal, but just letting you know.

[hitogoroshi]

Not sure why the vote was for, but if you need a reminder of my analysis at the begining of day 2 and my reasoning for it, i've quoted it for you.

He voted you because of this.

* Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

As I said before, I trust both Sens and SirD's judgment, and that and the tell all lines up on you. But it'd be really stupid to end the day now.

Left 4 Dead is taking all of my time now, but maybe I'll try to do a PbPA sometime.

...but, seriously, zombie killing is fun! D:

[hitogoroshi]

Bah, I'm here, I just have schoolwork up the ass as we move into finals territory.

Townies have nothing to gain from misrepresentation and twisting of history.

...you did start it. Remember? It was last page, like ten posts ago.

[hitogoroshi]

It was because only OC's post showed the "Well that sucked" tell specifically.

But, yes, I agree tells aren't nearly so absolute and inflexible as Sens makes them out to be.

[hitogoroshi]

SF, I'll join Corvus in ask - if you think he's the scum, why the vote on OC?

[hitogoroshi]

This is a matter you don't want to get in to unless you want the Canadian Mafia after your head.

[hitogoroshi]

Use the abbreviation Hito, everyone does it and it is much easier.

Personally, I'm still not getting any scum reads on anyone. In my last game I built up a large case off of a few tells and got the scum lynched. But I have nothing to go on but other people's cases weighed by my town reads, which is hardly an ideal place to be. I don't want to replace out - I did that once when I had a viral infection and I got my townie stand-in lynched. But all I can really do is follow the cases and be a passive player.

Although I've got a question here. Iamusername and SF, what do you think about Sirdan?

[hitogoroshi]

Hey, Adel, are you on the Sirlin forums? I'm the same username on them.

I agree that people are more likely to replace if town than if scum. however, that's more definitive in the positive (if replaced, likely town) and not quite so helpful in the negative (if not replaced, likely scum.) It's not so suspicious for someone to play a game to completion regardless of role, but replacing out does lend weight as a town read.

[hitogoroshi]

Neither the SensFan or the sirdan wagons on day 2 went through, and the Wall-E wagon did go through. I find it incredibly unlikely that all three wagons (Wall_E, sirdan, and SensFan) were on townies.

Why is that? There are more townies than scum, after all.

[hitogoroshi]

Hey, I posted yesterday. One day isn't an all-caps thing. :p

Adel, could you explain post 1074 to me? Judging by the quote, you're saying Sensfan had something to do with Sirdan replacing out of games? That seems like you're really grasping at straws.

[hitogoroshi]

I know. But the fact you've 'busted' me as Scum in this game made me realize you obviously can't read me. Besides, I play this game for fun, not to be emotionally attacked for the sake of someone who thinks it might give them a 1% edge.

It seems to me this post was written from the P.O.V. of someone who knows that I am town...

I really don't see it.

I'll be blunt here. I have gotten nothing but a town read from SF this whole game. I have no scum reads, but if there's only one way to save him from lynching it's pretty clear that it's where my vote has to go. None of these arguments against him seem to criticize anything other than a.) He judges too much off of single tells (which is true, but not as big of a problem as it seems) and b.) that instead of directly saying where he saw the scumtell he tries to get someone else to point it out so he's not accused of "rigging the pool."

I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but if this SF wagon continues I'm going to stop it.

[hitogoroshi]

Adel, I understand you're trying to make a point of bullying him because you think he's bullying others, but you two having a hissy fit will just give us more of the same ad hominem shit that's made this whole damn game almost unreadable. Quote specific examples (and trim the fat, that last wall of text was pretty worthless) or can it.

Sens, still waiting on your response to post 1114 (SirD).

[hitogoroshi]

Oh yeah!

Hmm, it's a bit hard to go back in time to answer the question. Because now, my answer is different that what it would have been before, thanks to SirD's question. I still trust Sens, but that question is a very, very good one that has quite an implication on this game.

So now my answer goes like this - wait for Sens to answer why he's changed his mind on Corvus. If he has no reason or it's BS, take him down, otherwise I would stick by my guns and lynch Adel.

But I think the recent round of questions is getting to the core of the matter a lot better than the crap-fest this game has been, and I don't want this day to end for a while yet.

[hitogoroshi]

I had forgotten about that!

I'll lynch Sens after his next post, then. Although I'd like to hear his reasoning about why a Townie claim = instant lynch.

[hitogoroshi]

And yes, if someone is pressured to claim, and claims Townie, lynch them.

But why? If you validate it even when it shoots you in the foot, it's obviously some solid principle. But I want to know the reasoning behind it.

[hitogoroshi]

I can and will in the next half hour if and when I get some sort of inclination that I won't be lynched anyways.

Okay, here it is.

I plan on voting for you entirely because you aren't answering SirD's question. If you answer it with a good answer I'll have no reason to vote you, so you can't just say "meh, I'll be lynched anyway." to avoid it.

[hitogoroshi]

That's the wrong question, SF. -_-

We were asking why you're voting for Adel and not Corvuus. You just made the question even more relevant than it was before!

[hitogoroshi]

Hmm.

Well, I'm convinced by your case on Corvuus. Not so much about why you switched to Adel - that seems to be the back and forth that has made this whole game a dangerous, annoying slog.

But the post in 1149 seems to be the question Adel wanted answered, and made the speed comments about. Your Corvuus case was, in fact, time-consuming.

I still trust SF, and I still trust Iamusername even more. Since he wanted me to take a stand-

Vote: Corvuus

[hitogoroshi]

What I'm really worried about is that the dead had it spot on and are yelling at their computer screens because they had it spot on and now they can't plead their case.

KMD told us to watch omni - now adel - before he was nk'd N1.

Sens told us to watch adel and Corvuus before we lynched him.

They both brought up the same names, and they were both town. It seems kind of dramatic in my eyes.

Also, I've repeatedly mentioned that I trust iamusername's judgment. And now he is dead. I smell an elaborate set-up on the prevailing wind (he killed the person he said he trusted, he's trying to trick us!) so I'd like to nip that in the bud. It may seem dramatic if a scum player points it out but it loses power coming out of my mouth, doesn't it?

[hitogoroshi]

out of the six dead townies, why did you only choose to mention the suspicions of two of them?

Because it only seemed like those two had a clear accusation at the brink of death. I haven't re-read in a while, so maybe I'm missing one?

And I personally don't see any problem with a massclaim when it's probably LYLO. I'd like to figure out what happened to L-K N1.

[hitogoroshi]

something so obviously silly

Care to point out what it is?

[hitogoroshi]

You seem to be missing the point, Corvuus. I said that Sens suspected you because he posted a case. Which you have not responded to. I was saying that a.) Sen's being dead doesn't mean you can avoid responding to his posts and b.) we have seen this same sort of fizzling out with omni/adel.

[hitogoroshi]

Speculates on number of Scum alive (something only Scum know), then does the common scumtell of "Let's discuss! You go first..."

But I do agree OC and 'lurkers' should post more... so by all means, let's hear from them and massclaiming comments.

Would you look at that. (I am aware Adel has said this is "not a major scumtell" but it happened so neatly I feel inclined to point it out.)

Nothing has really happened that would change my mind from SF/Sir scum team.

If we're allowed to ask Sens when exactly he changed I think we can post the same question to you, Corvuus. You said something about "he admitted he was wrong so I can accept him as town" but it seems kind of uncanny that the post after this one was Adel saying she prefered the sensfan wagon and suddenly you just stopped mentioning SirD as a suspect at all.

If anything, Hito's lack of hammer on Adel doesn't clear him at all to me

Are you saying that you expected me to hammer? The "if anything" implies that this is a deviation from the expected norm. Please explain this comment.

Hito: I don't see how you could think SF is 'dropping town tells' if he doesn't explain his votes, give reasons or discussion but just lynches people. Seems like you just read day 1, got lazy and thought SF was town from his play (it is 'decent' but it did get cop and doc killed so it is a decent scum play as well in my eyes) and have just been following him regardless of what happens or is being said. When I replaced in, I thought SF was fairly townish but everything since day 1 has convinced me otherwise. His current play is NOTHING like day 1 and he isn't even consistent with himself. So, I guess you do need to re-read since SF/Sir aren't likely to kill themselves.

I sure like being insulted because I trust the guy you wanted lynched!

I don't want to reach back too far because then it's just Corvuus suspecting SirD, which apparently he doesn't anymore.

Also.

Incidentally, to the rest of you, keep in mind what I said about TownAdel going after people who don't take responsibility for their actions.

Not a peep out of Adel regarding Corvuus.

I think the most likely scum pair is Corvuus/Adel. However, whatever OC says next has a HUGE impact on how I perceive him.

I still trust SirD somewhat, though not as much as I trusted Sens.

[hitogoroshi]

I didn't see what prevented them from being scum together, so i was ok with SF first and Sir second, even though I preferred Sir first and SF second. Mainly because Sir was scummy for real reasons while

SF was scummy based on association and actions in relation to Sir.

So if anything, I'm ok with SF being lynched since I did so based on association with Sir which he *refused* to revoke or make comment on from two days ago.

I find it amusing that Sir's case on SF was the 'cheating part' and when SF 'changed ' his mind (which you, hito, bring up against me which is funny since that is why

Sir lynched SF

and was lying on and such?) and no comment on previous parts but oh well. I was hoping Sir/SF were scumteam and would implode on each other, but I'm ok with Sir/Hito as I mentioned before.

Wait a minute.

So you suspected SirD the most.

But you were okay with lynching SF because of his relation with SirD.

And the final nail in the coffin for this was when...SirD suspected SF?

And when SF was shown to be town this vindicated your belief that SirD was scum??

And now I'm the other logical scum because I defended the townie you lynched because he seemed suspicious because of his relations to someone else you think is scum????

Townies don't do that, Corvuus. You cannot lynch someone because you think they are the *least* suspicious member of a scumpair, learn they are town, and then ignore that fact, pick a different person to be in your imaginary scumpair, and continue as if nothing happened.

You cannot just say "go read" to this. Explain how you can possibly justify your logic. "He wasn't productive" isn't a legitimate excuse to lynch someone if there's someone else you strongly feel is scum. In fact, the only reason I can think of for you to lynch SF over SirD is "I knew they were both townies and it was easier to get SF lynched." And we both know what role would say that.

I never denied being wrong when it came to Electra or Wall-E. I didn't push for their lynch for the better part of 2 days, then just as they are guaranteed to be lynch throw out "Well, if (s)he's Town, then (s)he's just a really terrible player!".

Can you man up and do the same? This is probably LYLO, Corvuus. I see you switching to SF instead of SirD because it let you set up TODAY'S lynch as well, killing a player I have repeatedly mentioned I trust (Iamusername) and hoping you can simply coast into an easy win with whoever your scumpartner is.

YOU killed the townie yesterday. I defended him. Do you understand why SF was talking about responsibility when it was clear he was going to be lynched? You have not taken responsibility, Corvuus. Your first post of the day was saying you're "willing to bank on a SirD/Hito scumteam". If you think SirD is scum, why didn't you lynch him yesterday? (And "willing tp admit he was wrong" is a bullshit excuse.) And why do you think I'm scum, besides the fact that I suspect you?

I got town tells from SirD, SF, and Iamusername. I have said this multiple times. SF = townie. Iamusername = townie. And now, my trust in SirD is enough to make me scum?

[hitogoroshi]

The burden of proof is on the negative for a case. After all, Sens quoted Corvuus and explained his logic on why he believed those are scummy. I don't need to say "why" I agreed - the why is what Sens supplied, that's the point of a case. When you need to prove a why is if you don't agree, and think is logic is flawed. Basically, my answer is that I agree with Sens evaluation of the posts and follow his logic. Corvuus is the one that needs to prove they are false, not I to prove they are true.

I wouldn't call it "flip flopping". It was over a day that showed the change. A flip flop is when there's a page between or something. He changed his mind, that's not so wrong. Besides, aren't we saying he thought Corvuus was town based off of one thing he mentioned in an IM conversation?

[hitogoroshi]

Yes, I've read those posts. 1107, as I said, had far too much fat for me to glean anything useful out of, but I've read pages 45-48 otherwise and posts 1151-1161. Why are you asking now? It looks like you're still trying to cast suspicion on SF even though you've killed him! Though, in all fairness, that smacks the most of a townie trying to defend their mislynch.

And 1151 was my last post because Corvuus killed SF the next day before I could say anything else. Of course, he said "L-1 I believe" so he'll say it was an accident because after all of the time he spent writing the post he couldn't spend the 30 seconds counting from the vote count on the previous page.

[hitogoroshi]

Adel - I was willing to hammer for two reasons. Firstly, I misunderstood what he meant about the "if claim townie > lynch" thing. When he explained the reasoning behind that tell, I realized it didn't apply to him. Secondly, it seemed like he was dodging SirD's question. Secondly, it seemed like he was dodging the question I thought SirD had posed. However, when he cleared up the misunderstanding and answered what I thought the question was in 1149, I realized that (while I didn't agree with his reasoning in that respect) that post was quick to write and it obviously wasn't a scum avoiding the question.

As I've said before, it's a bit hard to go back in time, because SF's case has now been even more validated by Corv's current actions:

Taking whichever of the two wagons is getting the most support, which shows he clearly doesn't care that much about who gets lynched, as long as its not him or his buddies, and as long as he can look somewhat consistent.

Ok, so more misreps, trying to set up two lynches, claiming he is 100% sure its a dan/Sens scumpairing, throwing out a random half-ass line at the end that serves no Town purpose, and claims that I "will die." Funny, and here I thought it was only Scum that could single-handedly decide to kill someone...

We're seeing that NOW. Sens being a townie has done nothing to mitigate him suspecting SirD, apparently. If I was hunting scum, I'd go for my biggest suspicion first. Taking out Sens allows him to set up a lynch.

And look. Almost 100% sure it's a dan/sens scumpairing. On Corv's first post, he just changed it to a hito/dan pairing in a single sentence because I "said something silly". He hasn't said a word on why I'm suspicious, and why should he?

It doesn't matter who the second "scum pair" member is, since he just wants to use the SirD lynch he set up and win.

So I stated (beginning of yesterday) I wanted Sir dead first. After the wagon went after Adel or SF,

i was willing to compromise

since at that point SF wasn't helping or even trying. His 'dying wish' accusation against me was pointless and nonsensical.

Compromise? So what you're saying is "I didn't think he was scum, but as long as we could lynch someone instead of talking more it'd be fine"? You should have fought for a SirD wagon with all of your might, and, if he was scum, used that to build a convincing case against SF. You can't say that because he "wasn't playing the game" you lynched him. If you honestly believe you've got scum in your sights, there is no reason to ever "compromise" unless a deadline has been set.

Also, "pointless and nonsensical"? There is a point, I've alluded to it multiple times, and you're ignoring it. Responsibility isn't some empty word. You had an "almost 100% scumpair". You lynched one member, they flipped town. You cannot, cannot, cannot, simply plug me into the slot the dead townie had after half a sentence saying I'm silly and proceed as if nothing has happened. Responsibility is understanding that Sensfan flipping town has changed the game considerably. You CAN'T ignore it, and yet you are.

If you don't quote that previous paragraph and refute the point, in detail, I really have no choice but to assume you're just trying to get your planned lynch on with as little fuss as possible and I'll vote you.

Question for you hito: would you have hammered Adel? Yes or no?

No. Scum would have let SF live, and the next day nothing would have really changed. It sucks that Sens died, but (and no offense to him) he may end up doing more in death than in life.

We KNOW he was a townie now. That's a major point, and I don't think you appreciate what it does to your case, Corvuus.

Question: Why did you believe SF? Give your interpretation and statements of the past 2 days (or whole game) and say why you think it is true.

I believed him because of his style. He knows how to play a good scum, and a good scum wouldn't do some of the things he did. It comes down to this - the scum don't get as passionate about a game as townies do. I don't think it's possible to fake how SF took the game. I know that's a lacking explanation - if I could better explain my town reads I would have been talking a lot more in this game.

My semesters are delayed from normal so it's finals week now for me. If you feel like I missed a point feel free to let me know and I'll try to get to it.

[hitogoroshi]

Again, my time is limited here, but I'll respond to a bit.

Adel: What I meant to say was "SF knows how to THINK like a good scum". He was a townie in the game(s) I did the meta on, but he's repeatedly said what a good scum would do in certain situations after the fact. (I try to meta people IC'ing in newbie games as townies, they tend to tell you exactly what they think and exactly what they think is good play.)

Corvuus, your post was way to long for me to respond to it all, but here's a couple simple misunderstandings I can clear up with a minimum of fuss:

1. You accuse me (as SF does) that I don't care who I lynch but i am just running around lynching people.

Not at all. I don't accuse you of running around lynching people. What I'm accusing you of is setting up a SirD lynch - one which you have spent "TWO FREAKING DAYS ON" - and abandoning it to go with the flow and lynch SF, confident that you could pick up where you left off the next day.
When I said you don't care, I was referring to the fact that your reasons for suspecting me were bad because you only need a SirD lynch to win. I'm not saying you've ran around lynching willy-nilly, I'm saying that you've planned it considerably, and after all you don't need a good case on the second "scum buddy" if you know the game will end after the next lynch.

Hito: you mention that you wouldn't have hammered Adel and that scum would have let SF live. and that SF would do more in death than life. So here you state that you don't think SF played a good game (or at least imply it) which brings up WHY did you believe and trust him beforehand if this is your viewpoint. In addition, you say that SCUM would have let SF LIVE. I didn't let SF live, therefore according to your statement, I'm not scum.

You missed the qualifier there - I said that HAD I LYNCHED ADEL scum would have let Sens live BY NOT NIGHTKILLING HIM. This is because there was so much hate for Sens that it would have been a relatively simple matter to lynch him the next day. Assuming 2 scum, that would be the end of the game.

Which is something I'd like to present to Adel. If you had been lynched, and flipped town - even if I had been the one to drop the hammer - who do you think would be on the gallows the next day? I find it hard to believe it'd be anyone other than Sens, especially with two scum to guide it that way.

Basically, I think the only way Adel could be scum is if Corvuus is scum.

To all - I think Sens is a good, intelligent player. Don't take that as an endorsement of me by anything he's ever said in this game.

To all, but especially Corvuus - if you want me to answer questions the next few days you'll have to make them short and easy to notice. Rest assured I will not vote while this hasty.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm mostly done here. I have two finals Monday but that's it. So I'll be able to be a bit more active as time goes on.

I'm going to look over the last statements of our two dead docs. Corv was right when he said that I don't quite recall if they made any clear statements on their deathbed. I don't believe they had any, but hey, it's been a while.

[hitogoroshi]

I've read it.

I absolutely need to hear either Corvuus or OC's response before I can post (it's one of them, I won't say which!) What they say will probably be the main indicator of my vote.

[hitogoroshi]

Once again I'll restate that I am here and waiting on a post from either Corvuus or OC regarding Adel.

Rest assured I can explain WHY I'm not posting after the fact.

[hitogoroshi]

I'd like to hear from OC as well, but Corv was the big one. To be honest I suspected him to do something that would prove he was scum but either he's good scum, lucky scum, or town. As much as I hate to admit it, I think I might have been wrong about Corv - seeing as he did not do what I fully expected ScumCorv to do in that situation.

If you really want an explanation, I can give it, but it's something that ScumOC could potentially do as well so there's also value in not bringing it up. Your call, Adel.

[hitogoroshi]

Corv, you don't know exactly what it is I was waiting for, so it's kinda hard to speculate on. Let's wait for OC to post, unless SirD wants otherwise.

I haven't ruled out any scum pair.

[hitogoroshi]

mod: please prod OC

Really kinda waiting on him...

[hitogoroshi]

Why are we talking when we're down a player and mod?

[hitogoroshi]

Well the problem is that my scumhunting got all bunged up when OC didn't show.

I will say that I'm getting less and less suspicious of Corvuus, and am worried more about Adel. However I can't give a fair calling of who I plan to lynch since what's going to influence me the most is where the votes fall. I do not intend to "vote with" anyone - because scum will probably vote in a bloc of two and I refuse to pledge my vote in advance when it could help that.

[hitogoroshi]

Erm, actually, that is the exact OPPOSITE of what my post said.

Let me spell it out.

If OC is town: there are two scum present, and if they can marshal votes in advance and possibly clinch the game before OC ever shows up.

If OC is scum: It's even easier for them, since they just need to have two people "compromise" on voting one person and OC can be the third.

[hitogoroshi]

Well, I trust SirD the most. But I'm not gonna follow lock-step into a vote of his without a convincing case.

We're *still* waiting on OC to respond to the case on you, Adel. :/

[hitogoroshi]

But I'm not gonna follow lock-step into a vote of his without a convincing case.

give it up, scum. What do you think -- the rest of us are just going to blindly follow each other?

Well, I think the scum would be willing to barter votes without necessarily demanding cases. Y'know, something kinda like

are you willing to compromise with me on OC?

or

and you also are not willing to vote for hito with me as well?

You and Corvuus are a pair, and you tried to get SirD to lynch myself or OC because then - gasp! - you have the three people needed to bump someone off right now. Town build cases, Adel. But you just seem intent on gathering the vote as fast as possible. Now, why would a townie be scared of waiting till OC shows up...?

[hitogoroshi]

You're right I haven't posted a case. What you missed is that I haven't asked anyone else to "compromise" and vote based off of how I feel. Adel, neither of us have made strong cases - I'm just waiting for more data while you go ahead and run with it.

If you're not scum, you're a townie who really wants to end this now or something. What's the hurry? If someone put a gun to my head and threw down a vote-now-or-die ultimatum (which it seems like Adel really really wants to do) then I would vote Adel. But I'll say right now that OC is my #2 suspect over Corvuus right now. If you're just looking to save your own skin (not the best townie play, but since it's almost certainly LYLO it is necessary) waiting on OC will probably be beneficial to you - there are a myriad of things he could do that would make me suspect him more as scum, and only a few things he could do that would make me suspect YOU now.

"Willing to vote for me with Hito and OC" - who the hell says I'm voting for you? I have no case, and I KNOW that. But it pointless to try to recruit OC as my third for a vote on you when we haven't heard from him in 21 days and for all I know I want him lynched more than you!

THAT is why I have no case. If it comes to it, I'll vote you to force a tie and try to save my own skin, since I know we lose if I'm stringed up. But it's too early for that.

[hitogoroshi]

You've generated one case yourself with the same data, Adel, and it was Sensfan. Is it better to have cased and killed town than to never have cased at all?

And of course I COULD make a case about you - I could make a case about anyone. But there's no sense making a case when

I myself am not convinced

. What I'm saying is that I don't believe anyone scum strongly enough to make a case and encourage others to vote for them. Are you saying I should make a case without this trust? Is that what you did when you started the Senswagon?

For example, I have one proto-case on Corvuus off of the foundation of Sens's case. I could take that and flesh it out, sure. I'm sure I could find scummy posts from Corv, just like I could find scummy posts from everyone. But the reason you don't see that case is because, after looking at it, I don't feel at all SURE that Corv is scum.

I think of it as a continuous "suspicion" gradient with a discrete "scum" zone at the end. My rating of suspicion is by how close to the scum zone each player is to the scum zone. When someone reaches that zone, I can feel comfortable writing a case and trying to convince others to follow my vote. Not before.

[hitogoroshi]

The case against SensFan was solid. Why didn't you join that wagon? ah, you

knew

that he would be town.

die scum die.

So let me get this straight. You are saying I'm scummy because your Sens case was

so fantastic

that I'm obviously scum for not agreeing with you?

But I don't want just back and forth yelling, so maybe we can get something productive done before OC gets here. Adel, I have a question for you. Assume I'm town. If you and I are town, who is the third town? And which of the remaining two should we lynch first?

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah, I have no problem with SF modding.

Adel, I agree that if we are both town I doubt SirD and Corv are both scum. Ergo, I would agree to lynch OC first in that case.

Of course there's no way for us to be sure that's true, but I learned that it's a helpful trick if there's one person I'm against to establish what would happen if we were wrong about each other. In this case it's comforting that if I see an extreme town-tell on Adel we can reach a consensus on today's lynch.

[hitogoroshi]

Umm, didn't you read my answer to this last page, Adel?

I'm not writing cases until OC is replaced because I need to hear his responses to quite a few questions before I know who I think the scum pair is.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah, at last count we're all here. Unless someone is posting but didn't respond to a prod?

[hitogoroshi]

As are we all.

[hitogoroshi]

Xof, I'd like to hear your response to SirD's case on OC/you (mostly page 50). (Assuming you're on the default pages/thread that puts us currently at page 56.) It was something I was waiting on OC to respond to, but he unfortunately lurked out.

[hitogoroshi]

Xof, I'd like to hear your response to SirD's case on OC/you (mostly page 50). (Assuming you're on the default pages/thread that puts us currently at page 56.) It was something I was waiting on OC to respond to, but he unfortunately lurked out.

This one is still hanging in the air. My opinion hangs somewhat heavily on this.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, damn, my bad. Wrong name. I was refering to SirD's case on omni/adel, and I was waiting on OC/xo's reply. Basicially I'm just re-posing this question again. But since I was waiting on OC's reply I used his name on accident.

Yeah, I want to know what you, xo, think of SirD's case on Omni/Adel, stated on page 50. Sorry for the confusion.

And adel, what exactly makes me an "active lurker"? We've all been waiting on xo. The only difference is that you repeat the mantra of "I think hito is scum and corv is town" every post. Is that content? Do you want me to just throw out who I like and dislike for no real reason?

I don't trust anyone. I have a half-case of sorts on you, adel. A lot of my old points on Corvuus are invalid. But if "content" is posting my suspicions without a case, then my suspected scumpairs are:

Adel/Corv
Adel/Xo
Xo/* (It could be anyone here, honestly)

So, basicially, SirD is my least suspected person if only because I can't see him as scum with Adel or Corv. Adel, I can see in every grouping, but there is something specific that could be a clue to help weight my decisions. That would be SirD's case I wanted xo to look at but used the wrong name for.

Oh, and Adel, I didn't address your vote for a reason. You didn't post a case with it. If you had posted a case, I would have responded, but if the FIRST vote is a rapid vote-off-one-quote deal I don't touch it. Why? Because if I see another person following the vote without a case it's a pretty strong scumtell. If I try to challenge the vote scum can throw out a BS case and then their scumbuddy('s) will have more justification to vote-follow.

[hitogoroshi]

ok hito, you are hammered. who is your scumbuddy?

What was the point of this? You knew I was town, and the game was over circa this post.