Invitational 10: 2005-2006. Game over! before 624

[bluesoul]

Damnit DGB. First you go on vacation and then you take my funny vote for chamber away?

Vote: DrippingGoofball

, snargle-bargle: chamber

[bluesoul]

No, I'm fine with the old #mafia reference.

[bluesoul]

I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB

[bluesoul]

What Sarc said. Don't really need to elaborate any further on it.

[bluesoul]

Really, bluesoul? I could have sworn you were referring to three scum having to be cautious.

It's okay, we've all been wrong before, much like you are wrong now. I'm simply saying that the three remaining players that haven't posted are now aware that people are looking for connections between MBLscum and scumbuddies. To Ether, I was assuming MBL has scumbuddies for the purpose of DGB's post, where she basically said she wanted to keep MBL alive so he could help us nail his scumbuddies.

If

he is scum, then that just threw up a red flag to elias, chamber, and IH, the three players that haven't yet posted. If one of them were scum, they're more keenly aware of a connection with MBL than they may have been if the comment had gone unsaid.

To be fair, I've never played with DGB, maybe this is how she acts, but I'd have rather it had gone unsaid. Ah well, we'll keep playing.

[bluesoul]

EBWODP: More to the point, the three that haven't posted are more keenly aware of an MBL connection

right out of the gate

, we don't get anything that hasn't been altered or skewed by the possibility of this connection.

[bluesoul]

On my iPhone so this will be brief. No, I don't think MBL is scum, I think he's being needlessly contrary. Its sparked some discussion so its not all bad.

I agree with e_k, in all truth its not a huge issue but one that may have been advantageous later. it may yet work out as PJ noted.

Home in 3 or 4 hours, will try to post more then.

[bluesoul]

On a sarc-bluesoul connection, he was defending me by way of correcting a sizable lapse in common sense by MBL. Sarc and I are at the very least okay with each other out of game (scumchat, etc) so I assume he just understood what I was talking about and didnt like that I was getting called out on something that was a misunderstanding. Of course he may have some other reason, I'm not speaking for him so if sarc wants to explain it as well, I'm all for more discussion.

[bluesoul]

Happy birthday, Shea.

VOTE COUNT NUMBER ONE

MBL: 3

(Elvis Knits, PJ, Sarc

Bluesoul: 2

(MBL, ether)

chamber: 1

(DGB)

DGB: 1

(bluesoul)

sarc: 1

(OGML)

not voting: 4

(Chamber, Elias, Patrick, IH, )

[bluesoul]

Missed you too.

[bluesoul]

3.)

I do, however, disagree with Bluesoul that any 'damage' was done by DGB's post. This was already alluded to in my own Post 42 (part 2).

My problem: I have a hard time in thinking that Bluesoul

seriously

thought MBL was ever in danger of being lynched in an Invitational Game on page 2, and hence how he could take DGB's post to be

serious

. Even assuming his complaint ("the non-posters will know not to connect themselves with MBL now") against DGB to hold weight in a vacuum (which I find doubtful), it would

only

hold weight

if and only if

the non-posters

also

believed that MBL was actually in some amount of peril and some sort of 'distancing' was even required.

Bluesoul's reaction and subsequent explanation (which also seems serious) does not seem to fit in to the realities of the situation, which strikes me as playful. Seeing as Bluesoul himself began the game playfully – and in fact still is doing so in a manner (see his response to chamber's vote on him) – I find it hard to think he would miss that same vibe in DGB's post, regardless of whether or not he has played with her (especially as her two posts prior to her MBL-post were also playful).

This whole thing is getting blown a bit out of proportion. Yes, I did think it caused some "damage" in the town's effort to analyze players should MBL turn up scum. No, I never thought MBL was in real danger to get lynched that early (though note that he had 4 of 7 at the time, a sizable amount that early); the timing of an MBL lynch would be irrelevant in that regard. I've also added that I agree with you, on post 43, that it may even offer some help in the town's effort, but I don't think it would be as much help.

I don't see how me telling people to stop audibly looking for connections between the then vote leader and other players is scummy, i.e., worthy of voting me. Distancing is

always

important as scum, it's the little hints and tells and slips that hint to an association that we typically go about finding scum. So why is the act of stopping people from stifling those leads anti-town?

I'd also like to hear more on DGB's thoughts on MBL, and whether she has serious thoughts on him or not.

[bluesoul]

Starting to wonder the same thing myself. Off to work, hoping to see a post by DGB when I next check in.

[bluesoul]

Please note this part of post 36.

To Ether, I was assuming MBL has scumbuddies for the purpose of DGB's post, where she basically said she wanted to keep MBL alive so he could help us nail his scumbuddies.

If

he is scum, then that just threw up a red flag to elias, chamber, and IH, the three players that haven't yet posted. If one of them were scum, they're more keenly aware of a connection with MBL than they may have been if the comment had gone unsaid.

Why are people having such a hard time with the thought that I was being hypothetical? I'm basing it on the assumption that MBL and one of the players that had not posted was scum. Certainly a possibility, so what's wrong with stating that DGB, assuming both conditions are met, may have hampered the town's efforts?

[bluesoul]

Bluesouls seems to jump from extremes of helpfulness to historical records of kraplogick.

vote: bluesoul

Ad hom noted.

MBL, even if your conclusion made more sense, it's still wrong. Until you accept that you

are

intentionally misconstruing my words.

[bluesoul]

...so what's wrong with stating that DGB, assuming both conditions are met, may have hampered the town's efforts?

Are you kwayzeee?

All I said, on top of page 2, and I paraphrase myself, was "OMG could it be that Sarcastro has found scum on page 1?" - then I expressed a humorous intent to vote MBL, but mostly,

I reminded the players that he had 4 votes and 7 were needed to vote. I also added as a joke that I wasn't going to vote yet, to pin down MBL's buddies.

How this has been misconstrued as "hampering the town's efforts" is causing me to bang my head against the wall until it bleeds.

Emphasis mine. Odd that you didn't make either point until this long after the original post.

VOTE COUNT NUMBER FOUR

MBL: 2

(Sarc, EK)

Bluesoul: 2

(MBL, DGB)

DGB: 2

(bluesoul, PJ)

Elvis_Knits 2

(patrick, Ether)

sarc: 1

(OGML)

not voting: 2

(Elias, IH)

[bluesoul]

A 30% chance I'm scum, eh? So you know there's a 30/70 ratio? How would you know that if you were not part of the informed minority?

Either explain yourself, right now, or stand similarly exposed as scum (and hypocrite).

[bluesoul]

...so what's wrong with stating that DGB, assuming both conditions are met, may have hampered the town's efforts?

Are you kwayzeee?

All I said, on top of page 2, and I paraphrase myself, was "OMG could it be that Sarcastro has found scum on page 1?" - then I expressed a humorous intent to vote MBL, but mostly,

I reminded the players that he had 4 votes and 7 were needed to vote. I also added as a joke that I wasn't going to vote yet, to pin down MBL's buddies.

How this has been misconstrued as "hampering the town's efforts" is causing me to bang my head against the wall until it bleeds.

Emphasis mine. Odd that you didn't make either point until this long after the original post.

I did make that point, in my

THIRD

post of the game, not only that, but in the post immediately following the post about MBL:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1152419

Once again you are misrepresenting people.

Yes, I read that, and I didn't like it then either; defending yourself with a post that singlehandedly led to two votes on you for scummy play seems odd. If I'm misrepresenting, it's not people, it's misrepresenting you, because you're not making

any

sense, and somehow most of the town is fine with that. You expressed interest in voting him to 5 on post 27, and it's not until post 97 that we first hear "oh, I was only joking, I wouldn't really do it"? Then you have the nerve to accuse me of misrepresenting you.

a.) X has four votes, just so you guys know and don't quicklynch.
b.) X has four votes, and I'm thinking about putting him at 5 votes.

One of those is a "reminder of how many players were needed for a lynch, and how many votes had already been cast for MBL" (76), and one is what you did instead. I'm misrepresenting you? Really?

Talk sense or don't talk. Show me my alleged "kraplogick" (sic).

PS, "Are you kwayzeee?" doesn't fly with me. It's not cute, and doesn't make me want to unvote you any more.

[bluesoul]

I badly want to vote Elias_the_thief and have a wagon waiting for him upon his return. His effort this weekend is utter fail, particularly considering he's only posting on weekends.

However, there's nothing to gain between now and Friday by voting him, so let's ignore him for a few days and THEN pounce.

Speaking of ignoring, explain your "30% scum" line from post 101.

[bluesoul]

There is weak hay being made about my "30%" remark:

I'm not intentionally misconstruing your words. There's a 30% chance that you're scum, and a 20% chance that you're scum telling the truth about your intentions there, and a 10% chance that you're scum who I caught in a slip-up and now you're lying about it to cover your ass.

I am dealing with generalities here. Obviously I can't peg the exact likelihood that someone is making an honest mistake or lying. I am estimating, which is something I do all the time to try and figure out how aggressively to attack something. There's no sense in pushing something repeatedly if there's only a 5% chance it's a reality.

I did the rough math, figured there's a 10% chance bluesoul is lying scum on this topic

, and decided it wasn't worth pressing beyond what we've already covered.

If you intend to use math at least support it, pulling numbers out of your ass that you have no way of supporting isn't cool.

Speaking of ignoring, explain your "30% scum" line from post 101.

A 30% chance I'm scum, eh? So you know there's a 30/70 ratio? How would you know that if you were not part of the informed minority? Either explain yourself, right now, or stand similarly exposed as scum.

If there are 3 scum, that's 27% of you. 4 scum = 37% of you. I don't really see any other number of scum as likely in an invitational, which will likely be a pretty standard/bland setup. Do you really think my assumption is most likely explained by inside information on the setup, bluesoul? Or are you just making hay? I think we're past the point where statements like Sarc's and DGB's early "we've caught scum" are amusing.

Really? Let's see the math then. I want to see how your concrete 10% gets support from concrete facts. You're appealing to logic where none exists. Why is it 10 percent? Why not 5 percent? Or 20? You call it a generality or an estimation now but that's not the tone you gave originally. Shall I read it back to you?

There's a 30% chance that you're scum, and a 20% chance that you're scum telling the truth about your intentions there, and a 10% chance that you're scum who I caught in a slip-up and now you're lying about it to cover your ass.

Now, I have no choice but to believe that you came up with 30% due to inside information while you maintain that I, through inside information, came up with three scum players and not the three players I mentioned in the previous sentence you conveniently omitted in your attack.

Unvote, vote MBL

[bluesoul]

And I didn't say you had inside information that there were exactly three scum players--I said that if anything, you have inside information that

I'm not scum

and therefore there are threeish non-MBL players who are scum.

Which, by necessity, would make me scum. How else would I know you were not scum. Again you appeal to logic that isn't there.

[bluesoul]

Yes, it's crazy isn't it? My vote and his vote make just as much sense.

On a more serious note, he is still trying to clear himself through bona fide nonsense. I want to hear his explanation regarding 121.

[bluesoul]

That was the point of my post, bluesoul.. I thought I noticed a subtlety in your wording that indicated you might be scum:

* You know I'm not scum
* You are pretending not to be scum
* You slip and say there are three other players besides me that are scum, when if I'm actually scum, you should have only been worried about

two

others, not three
* Therefore, your "pretending" got you in trouble

Again, I'm not saying this is actually what happened. I'm saying it's a possibility. And it's weird that you're putting all your eggs in this counterattack when it's such a weak one. Are you really, really sold on the idea that I'm scum at this point?

Let me try this one more time. Your failure to correctly read my statement does not make you town. Have you noticed yet that you're the

only

person that believes the above bullet points? Everyone else read it properly and didn't have a problem with me naming three players and then, immediately after, in the sentence which you omitted, stating the words "three players"; they may have had a problem with me stating that DBG's post was anti-town (though I believe it was careless instead of deliberate). Which is fine, they don't have to think it did. Hell,

I

don't even think it caused enough damage to merit the amount of BS that's piled up since.

This is not an attack, it's a more aggressive defense of myself because you are being a little too smug. You say I'm pressing the issue while you won't shut up about it. You've said I'm caught, you've said I'm stretching, you've said I'm in trouble, you've called me lying scum (by a 10% chance this time, ignoring the fact that that holds true for, uh, everyone else playing), all within the past 25 posts.

Did I mention I was speaking in hypothetical terms? Yes, I did. Several times. Whether you believe otherwise is your problem.

And I'm not trying to clear myself, I'm trying to find scum.

Doesn't sound like it, see below.

And I didn't say you had inside information that there were exactly three scum players--I said that if anything, you have inside information that

I'm not scum

and therefore there are threeish non-MBL players who are scum.

Actually, let's go over this one more time and maybe you'll see the inherent absurdity of the logic of your bullet points.

I'd rather see posts from those that haven't made it into the game yet, elias, IH, and chamber. Nice reference to nailing MBL's scumbuddies, I'm sure that helped us fight the good fight since we've got three players that get to stare that right in the face as they think about their posts.

facepalm: DGB

Okay, so let's count scum.

1.) You. Your first point is absolutely incorrect. By your logic I would know you

were

scum. Actually this is eye-catching as I re-read it.

* You know I'm not scum
*

You slip and say there are three other players besides me that are scum,

when if I'm actually scum, you should have only been worried about

two

others, not three

The bolded part is necessarily true in your hypothesis, I did say "MBL's scumbuddies" did I not? Or are you planning on omitting that as well? If you

were

town, why would I tell my scumbuddies to avoid connection with you? The unbolded part is simply illogical, again without knowing inside information as to the game setup.

2.) Me (by necessity of your 2nd bullet point)
3.) Non-MBL Player 1
4.) Non-MBL Player 2
5.) Non-MBL Player 3

Five aligned scum in a twelve player game? We're at lynch or lose on Day 1 then. Yes, five and not four. Why would I warn myself? IH made this same point in 110. If your little fantasy scenario was true or even something close to it, wouldn't it say something like "two people" or "two other people"? Hell, even if you don't buy that, four aligned scum is pretty damn high for what would be a fairly bland setup (especially considering we're both scum!). Why wouldn't it be three and one, the logical assumption for a 12-man game? Even if, for the sake of going completely off-base, you

were

the one (the SK), why would I warn my scumbuddies to avoid making connections with the Serial Killer? They wouldn't be any worse for the wear, but it wouldn't matter because to all intents and purposes we would have to think you're town, even better.

Oh, and neither one of us would have any reason to bus the other so hard on Day 1.

The above "five aligned scum" paragraph is speaking in hypothetical terms. Try not to omit this sentence, if you can, please.

I still think bluesoul's comment is being overanalysed, and I find his assertion that he was being hypothetical to be believable.

This.

[bluesoul]

I've had time to cool down a bit, I apologize for the harsh tone but I'm getting tired of arguing about this.

[bluesoul]

3.)

I don't much like Post 109 from Bluesoul. Here's a rundown of what I'm reading there:

Bluesoul

: DGB, why did you wait so long to explain your post?

DGB:

I didn't wait that long. Check Post 76.

Bluesoul:

But after Post 76, you got two votes. Why, then, would you use that post as a defense?

That just seems really backwards. DGB wasn't "defending", she was simply pointing out that she had, in fact, already explained her post. If I'm not characterizing this correctly, please correct me.

The two statements were separate, upon re-reading it I'll agree it doesn't read very clearly. The first part, "Yes, I read that, and I didn't like it then either," was in regards to the post in general, and you agreed with me on that (or, at least, used it as a basis for a vote). I will concede that calling it a "defense" was unfair on my part as she wouldn't really have anything else to point to. However, that statement aside, what do you think of the rest of 106? DGB states in 97 that the purpose of 27 was to give players a vote count on MBL, and I feel that there has to be something more behind it, or she wouldn't have worded it the way she did.

DGB's playstyle thus far has just really thrown me off. Post 1 was random, 2 was the one that started all this mess. Again, I don't see it as inherently scummy, I thought it was simply careless. Her posts 3, 4, and 5 all have this ingratiating vibe that's coming across as mildly scummy, then 6 through 9 contain attacks on me with no explanation behind them.

To work, then.

Unvote, vote DGB

Right now I see MBL as more likely town that believes he's found scum, than scum trying to run a player up; I don't think scum would push so hard so early over such a small point of contention, however his reputation proceeds him so I'm not discounting the possibility altogether. I don't like his use of numbers on me when they could be applied to anyone else playing, though they somehow are used to make me look scummier. Not cool.

Oh, and for the record, I don't have any connection with Bluesoul. All I did was make make one common-sense explanation of Bluesoul's post. I'm not sure I even knew what PJ's post was about when I said he was trying to blind us with logic. It was a joke.

I accept this, I read his post to PJ as a joke prior to people pointing it out as "connection fodder".

"Stop blinding us with logic" sounds like "Please stop being so awesome".

Ew, except that wasn't how he worded it. He said "PJ, please stop trying to blind us with logic." which is a little more aggressive. Sarc, if you would, explain why you chose to say that if it was a joke. I guess I'm saying just explain it a little more fully so I see where you're coming from. It was in regards to 58, which sounded like a typical PJ post to me.

Pre-post edit: One more point of clarification. I believe the "MBL's scumbuddies" bit in 27 was simply careless. I think her argument in 97 that she said she was "considering putting a fifth vote on him" simply as a way to let people know the vote count on MBL doesn't stand up to scrutiny, since there are plenty of other ways to let people know the vote count without adding that you're considering adding to the wagon. So 27 was fine, but her support of it in 97 was less so.

[bluesoul]

Actually, I tried to put the issue to bed. You necroed it, but it's fine if you're town and don't think you came off as clean as you should have.

The latter is why I'm still discussing it. If you're agreed, by all means let's stop talking about it. I'm bored with it.

[bluesoul]

Let me try and do those in order.

Patrick's effort so far has been mediocre going on decent. He

did

open a line of discussion with e_k that would've otherwise gone more-or-less unnoticed. Other than that there hasn't been a tremendous amount of substance to his posts. It's mostly questions without contributions. There's been a fair amount of that on MS lately so maybe he doesn't realize he's doing it, but I'd like to see him be a little bit more open in discussion, as it helps the town get information about you as well as the person you're questioning.

PJ has been the PJ I'm used to, I think I've played with him more than anyone out of this playgroup. He's made good points, with good support, and hasn't backed down from asking more direct questions. Of course none of those make him town, but his contributions so far have been good, in my opinion.

IH has only had one real post of substance, which is fine since he was on vacation. However in that post he made good points on both sides of the previous argument. So, I'd like to see more posts from him as that one was a post of quality.

Chamber and I know each other pretty well. He was a little late getting here but with the delay it was understandable. Chamber makes contributions a little differently than most players in that he rarely makes walls of text like our 129 and 134. Where 129 and 134 would maybe be analogous to a right cross, going for the knockout, chamber is content with sitting back and jabbing. They both do the job, he'll make small statements and ask an occasional question. It's his playstyle so his contributions are about what I've expected so far.

[bluesoul]

3.)

Bluesoul, how many games have we played together? Are you counting scumchat games for this?

I actually went back and looked over all my games and we didn't play as much as I thought. I started on the GL and I read a lot of games that you were in, that must have been why I had a feel for your playstyle. If we're counting scumchat it would be you, if we're also counting #mafia it would be chamber by far.

Post-preview sarnath edit: IH, My MBL vote was primarily a method of showing my discontent with him, his clinging to his view of the "three players" post was irritating me and I wanted to articulate as such. We've agreed to disagree. DGB never dropped off my radar as being the scummiest player but my vote had a little bit more use in that time and place on MBL.

[bluesoul]

Pretty much, yeah. I'd like to hear an explanation too, though, or I'm gonna go ahead and disregard his vote.

[bluesoul]

What? What else am I supposed to say? Not gonna defend myself when I don't know what I'm supposed to be defending, and the voter is too lazy to provide an explanation. If you see what he's getting at, and why I appear more scummy than you out of the two quotes, please let me know. Chamber would probably appreciate it too.

[bluesoul]

What? What else am I supposed to say? Not gonna defend myself when I don't know what I'm supposed to be defending, and the voter is too lazy to provide an explanation. If you see what he's getting at, and why I appear more scummy than you out of the two quotes, please let me know. Chamber would probably appreciate it too.

I actually very much dislike people talking for me, and my lack of explanation has nothing to do with being lazy. Cases are pro scum damnit.

Yeah, I realize that, it's why I was hoping it would irritate you enough to elaborate. Same with disregarding your vote. But if all you're going to say is cases are pro scum then of course I'm not going to take it as seriously as a vote with reasoning behind it.

[bluesoul]

Why disregard [the chamber vote]? Given what you've said about chamber's playstyle, how do you plan on discerning his alignment? This seems like an odd kind of threat to make.

It was said solely to spur him into explaining himself. Same with 169 where I volunteered to let others speak for him. He hates that and said so in 171. Not every post is going to be written laced with scum or towntells, and he's had other posts with content. I'm not going to be able to discern alignment anyway when all the post in question says is "I think you're right, vote bluesoul." Chamber votes for me a lot anyway (and vice-versa) so no, I'm never terribly surprised when he does it.

I get the feeling that both Patrick and I have about the same amount of commentary to questions asked ratio, but you seem to take a different stance on "question asking" for Patrick than you do on me. Could I have a little more detail on how you're differentiating between us?

Alright, you haven't been afraid thus far to go after faulty logic by people (PJ posts 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, and 13, out of 15). This is good, it let's us see your thought process while still making good points about the player in question. Patrick hasn't done this nearly as much (posts 2, 8, 9, 10, and arguably 12, out of 13), content instead to simply ask questions. Now, to be fair this conclusion mostly stemmed from a period earlier on in the game where he was "Actively lurking" for lack of a better term, skating along and seeming active without much content behind the posts. He's been doing better lately and I need to reassess him and his interactions entirely. Even with that I believe you've contributed more in the way of actual scumhunting than Patrick.

[bluesoul]

For PJ:

Helpful
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 22#1148222
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 05#1148805
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 98#1156698
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47#1156847

Kraplogick
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 14#1149214
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50#1151650
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 89#1153189
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 66#1153566
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 96#1153596
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 41#1153841
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1154895
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1154987
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#1155209
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1156035
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1158765

Your definition of Kraplogick may differ from mine. I've included red herrings.

That was...one of the most laughable and nonsensical set of groupings I've ever seen. My post 28 (the "three players" post) was helpful, but two of the posts that explain it are craplogic? Giving my opinion of a possible sarc-bluesoul connection is craplogic? I'm not even going to comment on the "'percentages" posts, they were used to show MBL he was being unreasonable and any other reading is taking them out of context. I guess you just flat don't like 109 because it hits too close to home. I don't even

get

why 151 is on the list.

Also, when you made the helpful/craplogic comment only 5 of those 15 posts existed, 2 helpful and 3 craplogic compared to a later 4 and 11 when you decided to grace us with a return after a five day absence. Gave you plenty of time to construct such a powerful case, right?

The scumbags no longer can claim Mason, that's for sure. That whole bit about percentages was a total red herring argument. There is no way this argument was about an actual scumtell, it seemed very contrived and planned. Bus'ing is definitely a possibility here.

Right. MBL and I contrived and planned a random argument about percentages that was eventually refuted by the other party...when? At night? There hasn't been a night. And you say there's "no way the argument was about an actual scumtell"; then why are you using it to declare us scumbuddies? For that matter, why are you bringing it up at all? And we would have no reason to bus each other day 1 with no provocation and no prior suspicion. If you think it's "definitely a possiblity" you're out of your mind.

[bluesoul]

I'm getting modest "trying to look involved but not really scumhunting" vibes off of PJ.

I believe you're still voting him, is that all there is to it, is there any other scumtells you feel he's giving off, or do you simply not see anyone else as scummier?

Also what are your thoughts on 185?

[bluesoul]

You're naming me a top suspect and you haven't made it past page 5? Hold off on that kind of stuff until you've made it to present. That was almost a week ago, it may surprise you but a lot has occured since then.

[bluesoul]

Right. MBL and I contrived and planned a random argument about percentages that was eventually refuted by the other party...when? At night? There hasn't been a night.

How do you know whether or not the scum were allowed to talk before the game started?

OGML, please explain what it is that you expected to me to comment on and why not commenting on it makes me scum.

Anyway, DGB is scum.

Unvote, Vote: DrippingGoofball

I don't really like the way you took this, that's reaching and you know it; you obviously didn't think enough of it to vote me, because you voted DGB immediately thereafter. So what are you hoping to accomplish? If you really think that I know that scum can/can't talk during pre-game, meaning you think MBL and I are both scum, meaning MBL and I decided to talk about percentages and stuff and irritate the shit out of everyone...vote me. I'm not gonna defend that.

[bluesoul]

Sarc: 201 says everything I'm going to say on the subject. Not adding anything further to the discussion.

Patrick: :goodposting: but I have a question for you, you haven't said much about Ether aside from fairly early in the game when you said it seemed like a genuine attempt to start the game off. Is that all or is there more you like? Explain why you feel she's a good town read (as I don't have much of a read on her either way and another perspective would be good).

Oh! Something else while I'm thinking about it. "Mediocre going on decent" originally said "decent", but I did a re-read on the fly and didn't like it as much as I thought I did, wanted to say mediocre but that was a bit harsh, and decent wasn't quite there either, so I used both. Wasn't trying to offend, sorry if you took it that way. The above post is a post of quality though.

Regarding 167, anyone else I would've been more suspicious but chamber does stuff like that a lot so I honestly wasn't sweating it. I was hoping threatening him with apathy might spur him into an explanation a bit quicker, sadly it did not. Of course I find it a little suspicious, I always do, but he does it consistently enough I don't see it as enough of a tell to pursue it. Hope that helps.

And I'm glad you said "alot of the attacks on him so far have seemed to be for strange reasons," I've been thinking that to myself for a while now. 196 is just the latest in posts that make me /headdesk and wonder why I'm apparently being so hard to understand.

[bluesoul]

Ad hom noted. At this point I want to say no just on the principle of it, but I don't really need any more BS. "Obviously I can't know that isn't the case. Sure, maybe they got to talk in pregame. I didn't think of that." Satisfied?

I tacked on the extra suppositions under the assumption that 1.) You were being rhetorical. 2.) You weren't just being a dick and making a statement/question so I can make an answer that's gonna look bad any way I say it. Apparently I was wrong.

[bluesoul]

Just curious, does DGB have to play any scummier before we can start lynching her?

[bluesoul]

I will try to keep up with the game on weekends and whenever else I might get a chance to.

Please show some respect for the other players in this game. Play hard or request replacement.

vote: Elias, FOS: IH

Are you serious about a lurker lynch Day 1? Surely we can get a replacement.

[bluesoul]

If DGB turns up scum I'm going after Ether. The post above is setting off all kinds of alarm bells.

[bluesoul]

Note shea's insert to the top of the page, it explains a bit more on deadlines in this game.

278 ("Who has considered the possibility that I have a power role?") irritates me on several levels. For the sake of not being a snarky bastard I'm not going to list all of them, suffice it to say I'm content with my vote. A claim seems like the choice of wisdom as this day's getting kind of long in the tooth and there's math going on that we're not privy too, I don't want to get stuck with no lynch today.

[bluesoul]

what is the point of soft-claiming like that?

[bluesoul]

Elias camp is over in 2.5 weeks. While I am really grumbling and upset by the situation, I think the best plan, as a mod, is to wait for him to be finished with it, provided he promises to step up his production on the weekends. I don't think wasting one of our replacements on a slot which will become fully productive in 2.5 weeks is in our best interests especially because at this point it looks like IH and OGML might at some point have to be replaced and PJ is known to have to be replaced at some point. Just sharing with you some mod thoughts. Feel free to PM me and disagree with them if you'd like

Anyone that still wants to skate around a deadline we don't know the formula to and drag day one out at least another three weeks needs to get your head checked. Activitity is already in the crapper, I'm going to be very put out with the town if we end up with an accidental no lynch on the basis of some obscure "must have a read on everyone the very first day" principle.

DGB still needs to claim.

[bluesoul]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

[bluesoul]

I think my point's been made. 12 hours and no new posts? Unacceptable.

We are more waiting on a dgb claim then anything else i think. Are you suggesting we lynch her with out letting her claim?

If she continues this act, and the alternative is a possible deadline with no lynch, absolutely. I'll admit it's a little bizarre but I'm not about to let her slide indefinitely on this; the longer we wait on a claim (which so far she has shown she has no inclination to do so), the more we risk the overall welfare of the town.

Shea can be a bit of a bastard mod, if he says there's math going on to determine deadlines I believe him, I also believe it can be a pretty strict formula and I know he will not bend the rules if the activity is somewhat there but it still qualifies for this deadline. He loves rules, that's why he's using my ruleset.

[bluesoul]

I'm already voting for you. If you'd bothered to pay attention you'd have probably realized that several days ago.

[bluesoul]

We're already at the point that Shea can choose a deadline, suspect nothing.

In addition I have a couple points of clarification on the deadline rule.

1) The initial three weeks is not a deadline, but rather a limit on when the mod can impose a deadline.

2) You will not know THAT a deadline has been imposed, in addition to the not knowing when which the rule actually states. I thought this was apparent from the spirit of the rule, but I guess not.

3) The deadline is not based on mod whimsy, there is a specific activity formula in the rules which will trigger a deadline.

Thanks,
Shea.

We really don't know. It's basketball without a shot clock; I'm suggesting we put up a shot. We have a quarter of the town AWOL, do you think that will increase or decrease the chance of getting deadlined? (<-- rhetorical)

Suffice it to say I am concerned about the ability of the town to drag out day one another 3 weeks minimum (more like 4 or 5 with discussion) without getting hit with a deadline. If this doesn't bother you just a little bit, please try and look at the realities of the situation. We're already two days into the deadline-able period. We

could

have anywhere from minutes to weeks to come to a lynch or lack thereof. Do I think it's mere minutes away? Of course not, but that's sort of the point; we don't

know

, and what's wrong with lynching the scummiest-appearing player, with the largest wagon, in the face of a deadline? She's been given numerous opportunities to claim, she's rejected them so I'm not going to bother asking anymore. If I could hammer you, DGB, believe me when I say I would do so, with or without the blessing of the town. Your discouragement whether real or contrived, your refusal to claim, and your "lynch me and find out" attitude are just a few items on the list of things that bore me.

The town needs to stop with the scared, head in the sand, we can't do anything unless decided by everyone and signed in triplicate bullshit nonsense and make a play. If your vote is on someone and you haven't built a convincing case, you're suspect. Either make a case and push for a wagon or make with the DGB voting. In either case, do it quickly if you don't mind.

[bluesoul]

ps: note, none of our lurkers have managed to sleaze their way over on to DGB. odd.. you'd think that if she's scum, a scum amongst the lurkers would have found a reason to make the safe, lazy play and get on her wagon by now.

Unless she's scum and her lurking buddies see lurking as the optimal play versus bussing. They're staying mostly under the wagon, they're getting called out for lurking but we don't have a lurkerwagon at all; I wouldn't be sweating it too much either.

I have bad feelings about Ether that will be reinforced should DGB turn up scum. I don't know if I could give an exact reason at the moment if asked, it's more vibes and interactions than anything solid. Either way I plan to do a full re-read Day Two with the death/deaths taken into account.

As an aside, I realize my activity has slowed down slightly, I'm working quite a bit during this last stretch of Back To School. I'm not gonna lie, I'm also consciously not posting as much; a lot of the arguments lately are a little silly to me and not really indicative of scum either way, but I don't really see any need to say that every day or so.

I am still concerned about the possibility of a deadline but I'm also pleased to see more activity, so some of my fears are alleviated for the moment.

[bluesoul]

EBWODP: "under the wagon" in the first paragraph should be "under the radar", I just got back from 36 holes of disc golf and I'm a little heat strokey.

[bluesoul]

I really do'nt like the DGB votes MBL sequence. It's very irritating to see DGB like this at this point. But I'm really surprised at how early Ether throws out the possibility of Supersaint after the soft-claim. I'm dismayed that was her first possibility. What I got from DGB wasn't that if she's lynched that her role was better to see, I got that DGB was just being resistant to claim and was throwing out the possibility that we should tempt her and just plain lynch her because she's not giving clues. There's a specific function of that communication that has more to do with her defense than her actual role, in my opinion.

I question OMGL continuing the thought that there's a supersaint in DGB. I highly doubt that DGB is even suggesting supersaint and I'm not sure Ether was either, but OMGL is continuing it. I want the supersaint discussion to stop, and I hope it does by the time I finish this readthrough because this is too long a post. Nonetheless, I do agree that DGB should claim.

I agree with pretty much everything here. Thanks for such a thoughtful first post, PJ's activity was already good but hopefully that's the kick in the pants the town needed.

I hadn't really commented on it prior, but I know Shea pretty well; I absolutely would not put a role like Super-Saint past him, but it also wouldn't be my first choice for a possible DGB role either. "Lynch me and find out" in this context sounds more like lazy wagonee (or trapped scum that doesn't want to tip the scum's hand) than an attempt to bait a SS kill. This is day one, if DGB did in fact have a role along those lines, or claimed to have a role along those lines, then the town needs to be aware of that to set up the free kill. This isn't some motley crew, it's an Invitational game; no scum is going to hop on and hammer that blindly, especially not now that that's been said.

I realize that doesn't make a ton of sense, and that has a lot to do with DGB's continued refusal to claim. At this point I don't expect to see a miraculous turnabout and claim so I'll assume DGB is playing in an antitown fashion and thus will make as good a day one lynch as anything we've got.

I would like to clear up two things regarding pablito's 367 and some comments he made about me. They're both in the same paragraph, which I'll split up.

[quote="pablito, 367]I'm not sure where bluesoul is going with his attack on DGB. He really sounds like he's jumping on a wagon. I should also note at this point that I've been drinking, so the quality will begin to deteriorate. ... Nonetheless, we should also point to how bluesoul tries to deflect onto DGB. [/quote]

You should note I've been on DGB consistently all game, my vote on MBL was a demonstration of discontent and nothing else; if you think I really thought I had him trapped with his percentages post...well, that's not right lol. I think DGB has been the scummiest-seeming player all game, if you're going to call it jumping on a wagon I think that's overlooking the fact that I've been giving explanations for it for most of the game.

Actually I'm gonna split this last piece a little further.

[quote="pablito, 367]I don't know why bluesoul nor MBL are trying to get into the math. At this point, I'm going to say that bluesoul is at least becoming even more consistent. But really. Why even bother go that route? However, I have to really admire that bluesoul managed to agree to stop talking about it and entice MBL to move onward.[/quote]

MBL was more or less running me up, the whole hard case and then percentage counter-attack really were quite odd and if I weren't already on the defense I probably wouldn't have made an issue of it but there was a lot of nonsense flying about so a little more nonsense from my end managed to quiet it down. MBL can of course speak for himself but I think that we both realized our points had been made and we were prepared to agree to disagree on it, there was nothing further to really add and all it was serving to do is make us pissed off at each other. That said...

[quote="pablito, 367]But what really gets me is that MBL moves forward quickly with significant questioning whereas bluesoul mostly just wants to be done with being on the defense. Could be scummy on bluesoul's part, could be actual frustration. I think it could easily be frustration.[/quote]

I really did just want to be done with it; frustration's a pretty accurate term. I caught a lot of flak really early on in the game and I was tired of being on the defense, MBL's case was sort of running out so rather than leave it open for someone else to call out some minor point that was going to bring it back up for another incessant round, combined with the fact that I honestly did misunderstand MBL's later explanation of his percentages (meant to temporarily clear me rather than run me up by a bogus percentage), we simply agreed to stop talking about it. I've never done that before, I was honestly glad to see MBL be receptive to it. Really, at that point, all you're going to find is a poorly thought-out phrase or a few words spoken in heat to run someone up on, and that's really a bad way to find scum.

I think that's all I have for right now, I think I'm gonna re-read these last two pages as there's been some posting I haven't really understood lately.

[bluesoul]

Ugh that's what I get for not proofreading. You see what's going on. Goodnight folks.

[bluesoul]

bluesoul, whether you have been consistent with attacking DGB or not, the context of you first voting DGB will always be stored for posterity. It's only something to note and I can't forget it.

I've gotta be misreading this. You can't forget...my random vote? Okay.

[bluesoul]

So why would you encourage DGB to claim supersaint, Ether?

This has been my biggest issue with Ether thus far. If DGB is a SS, then Ether made an awful play; the SS has two uses during the day.

1.) The SS goads the town into a lynch, and unwitting scum hammer, trading 1 for 1 and is a protown move by the SS.

2.) The SS, being wagoned to death, claims as such and let's the town lynch the second scummiest appearing player.

Both scenarios are only especially helpful in later days and given the circumstances today all bets are off. The first scenario is only helpful when the possibility of a SS has not been aired by the town or by the wagonee themself. Either way, Ether had absolutely no reason to bring it up; it's probably just personal experience, we used SS a LOT in #mafia and got a good feel for how to deal with it. Shea was also around during that time and the possibility of a Super-Saint is not lost on me, but

I

haven't been begging DGB to claim it either.

MBL's 376 is right on; nightkilling is the main way to deal with an SS obviously. Thus, an SS

lynch

is the correct play

if

the town has a second lynch in mind and wants to do both in one day. That doesn't appear to be the case at the moment, and given the snail's pace of the game we'd be deadlined before coming to a consensus on a 2nd lynch, imo.

Honestly the only reason I'd see to push that hard for an SS claim is Ether is scum and is warning her buddies not to rush into a lynch and possibly get killed. Also, the sentence "if she's scum, there's still no harm waiting on a supersaint claim" in 371 just slays me. I don't understand it, I find it unbelievably obtuse to essentially offer the scum a safe claim. Why do you want DGBscum to claim SS if she's not?

That said, DGB hasn't even posted in almost a week; there hasn't been anything of substance in over a week (anything even slightly more than "lynch me, bye"). I do not intend to let her defeated attitude keep us from making a lynch day one. She has been active in other games every single day since her last post here six days ago. And that's bullshit. Hell I'd rather lynch her than have Shea have to find another replacement.

If you guys are really worried about the SS possibility, and think there's scum on the DGB wagon, roll a dice and we'll have our hammer. Personally I'd like to see Ether hammer but dice would be fair and unswayable by scum.

[bluesoul]

DGB: 5 (Pabs, Bluesoul, sarc, ether, Patrick)
Elvis_Knits 2 (chamber, MBL)
sarc: 1 (OGML)
Patrick: 1 (e_k)
MBL: 1 (DGB)

not voting: 2 (Elias, IH)

We would still need one more potential DGB-voter to do anything, e_k. At that point, I'm not sure if we want to do dice or just use you since you've volunteered; logic says use the dice but common sense says to use the volunteer. I think I want another opinion on this.

Tell me about your IRC experience, Bluesoul. Wouldn't an explicit supersaint claim be even worse for scum in those smaller chat games than in a 12-player mini?

Incidentally, what's your opinion of Elvis?

I would see an explicit SS claim to actually be worse for the town than the scum, as no scumbag without a great deal of intestinal fortitude would even think about hammering once it's out in the open. Consequentially, the chances of losing two townies goes up and the chance of trading 1 for 1 goes down; believe it or not scum were much more apt to hammer than town and the SS becomes more powerful (and dangerous (swingy)) as the game progresses. That said, #mafia games were normally 7 to 10 players and were much more focused on making "percentage plays" than gut feelings. I feel that my proposal of using dice has merit as it removes a variable: Rhetoric by players, whether scum or town, to push for a certain player to be the hammer.

Actually, I'd like chamber's opinion on this along with 383. He's got as much or more experience with the Super-Saint as I do and he may have a solution to offer as well.

As for Elvis, last night I managed a full re-read of the game and elvis is now creeping up my scumdar a bit. A lot of that's been due to more recent posts as opposed to earlier in the day. Somewhere between an IGMEOY and a FOS, but not enough to convince me she's lynch worthy at the moment.

[bluesoul]

I'm tempted to wait for more discussion as the case for a hammer's developed pretty rapidly, but I also really want to say that you should vote and e_k should hammer now and just get it the hell over with. It's now been a week without any word from DGB and she continues to blithely play her other games.

[bluesoul]

This is MBL we're talking about. He's playing a perfect townie game.

I disagree and I think he would too.

Fake edit: Didn't see page 18, glad elvis agrees with me on this.

[bluesoul]

I'm going to bed, tomorrow's going to be about as bad as it gets at work; I probably won't be able to give a full explanation until Wednesday but suffice it to say that DGB's play has been consistently scummy, Ether's been pretty ambivalent and elvis has only recently started appearing scummy, though not to the extent of DGB.

I want to hurry it along because we could be deadlined at any time; however, the activity is much better than it's been before. I still think we could talk until we're blue in the face and not get a damn thing done with this list of players so yes I was being a bit more forceful in pursuit of a lynch just to progress the game, and I think it's fair to say that that was no more than a day or two off too.

I'm a bit alarmed at the speed of Elvis's wagon, votes were placed in posts 401, 402, and 404 to go from 1 to 4. Granted, MBL was already starting to push that way, and one of them is DGB. Patrick's jumps out at me moreso than Ether's because Ether already admitted she was on the DGB wagon because it was more protown than fighting it. Patrick's vote occurred with precious little explanation behind it. That would be the first possibility of a pairing I've contemplated thus far in the game (DGB-Patrick). For the record, I do

not

go actively looking for scum partners on Day One. Day 2 all bets are off though.

I need more time to read elvis's posts before committing a vote, I don't know how much I like DGB's attempts to tie every player in the game to e_k but what the hell, it's content.

Goodnight. Back Wednesday.

[bluesoul]

bluesoul has been keeping a low profile and has not posted since Aug 11.

Yes, real life takes priority as it normally does. The e_k wagon built up more than I was really expecting and I don't know if I like that it went that readily from the former vote-leader pointing a finger. I think one of the other invitational games had the same scenario, mneme the vote-leader deflected to pooky, the wagon got back on mneme who was in fact lynched as scum. I'm not equating the playstyle but I am equating the scenario and I'm not sure when exactly DGB stopped being the best lynch for the day. I'm not going to fight this particular wagon but I am going to be inspecting it rather closely, along with the original DGB wagon.

FYI: Not volunteering to self-hammer isn't scummy. Just sayin'.

[bluesoul]

I realize the above post has very little content, I'm behind on reading and will try to get caught up but being a grown-up sucks.

[bluesoul]

Neither were attacks, I'm not moving my vote at this point. I was considering it but no, you went from idiot to crybaby to a flash of possible insight to being back to revealing your true colors.

Again apparently I'm making things up, 518 looks pretty, uh, existent to me.

[bluesoul]

Refusing to selfhammer isn't indicative of anything other than the refuser isn't a moron, so why bring it up at all unless you think it's telling of something?

And I was going to do my catching up with an e_k vote in mind. I'm still gonna catch up but unless I come to that vote of my own conclusions I'm keeping it on DGB. Nothing I've seen so far leads me to wanting to vote e_k but I've got about three pages to catch up on. Anyone can be made to look scummy when they're constantly on the defense, I would think everyone here knows that, and honestly the thought we're going to reason out a scum lynch day 1 is silly; PJ had it spot on with his "you can catch some good players, but you can't catch them all" statement.

Off to work, will check the thread at about 6:30.

[bluesoul]

Refusing to selfhammer isn't indicative of anything other than the refuser isn't a moron, so why bring it up at all unless you think it's telling of something?

Because I was looking at who wasn't voting for elvis for their motives if she turns up scum or town? I included her too for humor. Geez.

If you think anyone can me made to look scummy when they're constantly on the defensive, how come that excuse only works for elvis? The case on her is not even about being over-defensive. I have a feeling you're not really paying attention. Hmmm... food for thought.

It didn't just work for elvis, it's a statement on mafia in general and never mind that I was trying to cut you a little slack. And being made to look scummy isn't entirely about being overdefensive (pot to kettle: you're black). I think pretty much anyone (else) here knows what I'm talking about. I've already acknowledged I need to catch up but I can't help but assume that some of these votes are because of responses made once the wagon started. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

[bluesoul]

Refusing to selfhammer isn't indicative of anything other than the refuser isn't a moron, so why bring it up at all unless you think it's telling of something?

I think you're reaching here.

That's fine. I'm not asking for agreement.

and honestly the thought we're going to reason out a scum lynch day 1 is silly; PJ had it spot on with his "you can catch some good players, but you can't catch them all" statement.

This is so bad I have to take you to task on it. PJ did not have it spot on - his point of view likely comes from several bad experiences he's had where playing with a list of good players has resulted in a town loss. His experiences are not necessarily representitive of what really goes on (I've taken part in a number of high level games that ended in town wins). And of course it's possible to lynch scum on day 1. This kind of attitude is seriously not helpful, and heck, you yourself brought up an example of a high level game where scum was lynched on day 1.

I didn't say the thought of lynching scum day 1 is silly, I said the thought of reasoning out such a lynch is silly; that it would be an entirely logical and rational decision by everyone involved on day one only proves that someone played poorly as scum (and yes, mneme played poorly as scum).

Actually I'm probably done with this topic, it has to do with mafia theory in general and has no bearing on this game. If you disagree that's fine, but it's not gonna further anything in this game so I'm done with it.

May have time later tonight or tomorrow morning for more catching up, I have a writing project in progress at the moment.

[bluesoul]

Those are pretty big words when this goes back to a statement that you allege was made in humor so try getting off your fucking pedestal. Nobody else here is going to vote me because they disagree on the principles of self lynching.

FYI: Not volunteering to self-hammer isn't scummy. Just sayin'.

[bluesoul]

bluesoul: The whole assuming that the 30% came from inside information is the only thing scummy I really see from him. Liking the fact that he brought up the deadline issue. Don't like the fact that he chose to ignore chamber's vote just because chamber refused to elaborate. Find him scummy.

Let me clarify two things. One, I was using the 30% to show MBL he was being ridiculous, not to be used as a serious attack. An attempt to make him look in the mirror if you will. My later comment that my vote and his made just as much sense was indicative that I knew it was illogical.

And chamber and I go back years across multiple websites and media. I was doing what I felt was the most effective way to get him to explain himself. It didn't work and he's never really explained the vote but at this point I'm not very worried about it. For the record, his playstyle this game is unlike anything I've seen from him before, which he just explained the reasoning for two posts up. I may start playing one game at a time after this is over and I'm hoping you stick around, my friend. Good rivalries go on forever.

[bluesoul]

I don't really understand.

If you are certain to be lynched - which you are - then why is it rational for you not to claim.

I'm assuming that your role will be revealed upon your death anyway.

FOS: HackerHuck

DGB was exactly this close and I'd say the lynch hasn't exactly proved to be a certainty. I don't get these double standards between DGB and Elvis and I'd appreciate someone unvoting until I get an explanation as to why there is such a double standard.

[bluesoul]

More activity please. I will vote elvis if we appear to be stalled out as we've accomplished probably the longest Day One of the year, and probably longer than that. I don't believe I have anything directed at me at the moment so I'll take the opportunity to announce I'll have limited access until Saturday as I've got family in town the next four days.

[bluesoul]

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time.

...

I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

The onus is not on us to make you play the damn game. Get your head into it or ask to be replaced, don't make us wait another day because you don't feel like playing right now.

Unvote, vote Elias

[bluesoul]

I'm not sure what you're attempting to do, that was your fifth post of any real content in the almost two months the (day and) game has been going. By my rough math that's about a post with anything remotely usable every week to ten days. You say you have no motivation to get caught up so I can't even ask you a relevant question to force a read. Do you

really

expect your one-to-two-sentence PBPA over one player to give anyone a read on you?

Nobody else has had to cancel events to be moderately active; I work two jobs and go to school and I believe I'm still probably the player with the highest in-game post count here.

Hopefully this is the start of your activity here. For the love of gentle Jesus get caught up and place a vote.

[bluesoul]

I voted elias to start discussion; I'd say it did exactly that. You don't have to like it, but don't automatically group me in with those that are on him for making a case from another player's content. I honestly don't find it as egregious a sin as people are making it out to be, but I wouldn't mind lynching him, if only because I think it's a better option than the e_k wagon which I'm still rather ambivalent on; something about how it's developed just feels odd.

Curious to see elias's PBPA on me.

[bluesoul]

When a list mod gives me mod powers and I get my OP up for FFVII, I'll deliver.

You know, that's pretty fucking lame of you. Why are you holding this game hostage because you want to start another game? That's pathetic.

[bluesoul]

Posting from the iPhone again, Ike has left me without power for a week or more. PBPA looks reasonable but withholding judgment until I can look side by side. Will explain the hostage comment tomorrow if I can find wifi. Stay safe guys.

[bluesoul]

bored town

Pretty much, I think we're chasing shadows at this point. If you're bored you're at least hiding it better than I am. At this point I'll vote whoever's closest to lynch just so we can get to some real info to chew on (ad nauseam) tomorrow. I believe that's elias though so I'm good for now.

Let me explain the hostage comment, in context.

When a list mod gives me mod powers and I get my OP up for FFVII, I'll deliver.

You know, that's pretty fucking lame of you. Why are you holding this game hostage because you want to start another game? That's pathetic.

You have to realize how that sounds to me, whether it's what you meant or not (you've stated repeatedly you don't think about your wording). To me it sounds like you have a PBPA of me ready to go, and you're ready to post it...but you're refusing, because mith hasn't given you mod powers for a game outside of this one. To have you promise content, promise content, promise content, and then welch on it is a great way to evoke a response out of me much to the effect of what you've already seen. I am not saying that's what happened, I'm saying that's how it appeared.

Regarding the PBPA itself, there are some minor issues I could bring up but it's a point-of-view thing (see the above paragraph for more POV shenanigans), the only real concern is that once I start targeting you the analysis went from phrases like "good, circular logic, correct/incorrect" to "bullshit, needless, and retarded". The crux of this would be 612.

*shrug*

This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. I dont think this should have any reflection on my alignment. I'm sorry that I underestimated the task of staying caught up while missing weeks at a time.

...

I hope that this will give you guys at least some sort of read on me going into day two, and that it will motivate me to get back in the game.

The onus is not on us to make you play the damn game. Get your head into it or ask to be replaced, don't make us wait another day because you don't feel like playing right now.

Unvote, vote Elias

Analysis:

612: bullshit vote against me. later explains it as starting discussion, but leaves his vote on me.

Call it whatever you want, I choose to call it a valid attack. The phrase "This game is uninteresting to me and I lack the motivation to get caught up. " gives me precious little faith in your ability to play the game. (It sounds like something that would come out of the mouth of a slacker kid with a pile of paperwork to slog through, and as my dad would say it sounds like a personal problem to me.) Before you take issue with that realize that in the timeframe the comment was made you hadn't posted in two weeks. I had no reason to believe it was going to change.

"Starting discussion" in retrospect had little to do with voting you, you were pissing me off and I wasn't gonna miss you much if you happened to get dead. Your activity since then has been good but you want to know why I'm voting you now? DGB's not likely to get lynched so you're my second option, the wagon's decent sized, there's been good reactions to go by and, as I've been saying for a month or so, I'd still like to see someone safely dangling rather than get deadlined. In fact, DGB's sentiments are the same as mine, only she'd rather see e_k lynched but the wagon dissolved so you're her second choice. I don't believe you're any more blatantly scummy than our last two potential wagons, but at the moment I'd be inclined to call it a safe play, with the alternative being bird as I don't think he or Sarc have proven themselves either way yet. But I go back to the very top of this post, the town's running from wagon to wagon, chasing shadows and not committing, so I'm not gonna push for a bird wagon at the moment, but I will echo MBL's sentiment that he needs to establish protown credibility.

And Elias, 691 was chamber baiting you and you took it hook, line, and sinker. /golfclap Chamber.

I'm somewhat surprised to say that DGB has backed off my scumdar significantly recently. It's a marked playstyle change recently, I can't decide if that's in itself scummy.

BTW, I have power again but the whole state got raped so no promises while they fool with powerlines for the next week. Not foreseeing any issues though.

[bluesoul]

If I was in the game at this point, my vote would have been on Bluesoul, mostly for vibes and not in particular for any of the points brought up against him (he was on the spotlight quite a lot until now). I feel like he has concentrated his efforts so far mostly on technicalities or easy to attack players, and that he has done so in an aggressive and assertive manner that doesn't seem quite sincere to me. Has been calling for DGBs head for most of the game so far, but mostly kept her on the backburner as far as his arguments go.

This actually got me thinking about my playstyle, something I generally don't do, and with one exception that's pretty much me on Day One. I'll play largely on gut, if someone doesn't sit right to me and their posts don't do anything to placate my discomfort I'm going to go after it in the absence of information. I would like to think I'm easier to understand, motive-wise, than most; I believe in an openness of meaning*, which is part of why Sarc's "how do you know the scum couldn't talk before the game started" comment really irritated me (there were other reasons which I believe I've elaborated on enough). The exception would be your statement that I go after easy to attack players, and I find that more or less baseless; if you can provide an explanation for that I'd like to refute it.

And I think people know I'm insincere. I mean, look at the avatar. Hell my self-bestowed usertitle on wifom was "A Paragon of Disinterest". Sky's blue. Water's wet. For the most part I am at least going to give the impression that I don't care...I think my style of writing has a little bit to do with that impression.

Anyway, read on, it's a lot to slog through and unfortunately it's running low on interesting reading material as of late.

*Openness of meaning doesn't mean that I'm above setting a trap or playing a gambit, but I'm normally very clear later about what exactly I was trying to accomplish by it.

[bluesoul]

No, he's admitted that to some extent he's willing to settle for a quicker, possibly inaccurate lynch out of his personal impatience. I'd actually be more concerned if he was trying to cover that fact up. I DO think he should give us a broader analysis of the town at large instead of trying to get away with piecemeal. He has, to his credit, weighed in on elvis, albeit without many supporting details.

I'll try to give a little more information on Friday, I've been working 8 AM to 11 PM and that leaves precious little time for much of anything. e_k's 755 is outstanding and I'm in full agreement with it.

I have a lot to do today so I'll try and answer, briefly, a few questions that have come up.

Jumping on e_k vs. jumping on elias: I don't see how the two situations equate honestly. Elvis had a rather sizable wagon that, at the time, I was not comfortable enough with the reasoning on to join, but not opposed to ending the day for info, thus ambivalence. At this point I find elvis protown so I won't be getting on that wagon today. Elias, on the other hand, had either zero or one vote (don't remember) and had been given precious little examination. Pretty awesome that "scumhunting" is only such when it's not an "easy target". I also find it funny that you hedge your bets on the "easy to attack" statement after I post asking for more information,

of course

you didn't read it, now it's just a playstyle difference. Convenient, wot?

My tone: Yes, I am acutely aware of what I'm writing all the time. It has less to do with playstyle/metagame/whatever than it has to do with my background as a writer. I don't see how this is an argument either way; you are not required to like my tone, God knows I don't like it when players say "Well, I don't really think about what I'm writing." Language is the core of thought; without language there is no thought, and if you don't think about your words I'd call that a fair indicator you're not taking the subject seriously. This is mafia theory at best though, and really goes quite a ways past that so if you wish to debate on it we can do so privately.

Bussing/distancing from DGB: Not a totally unreasonable accusation, but I'm simply not enough of an asshole to keep on someone just to act triumphant if they end up scum. She appeared scummy for most of the game and her posts lately have been significantly less so. That doesn't mean I'm exonerating her entirely, it means that to me now she's had both scummy and protown moments. Just a quirk you're going to have to deal with.

I get a fairly strong pro-town vibe from her, primarily from the way she defended herself against mostly unconvincing, yet inexplicably popular cases.

I think this demands details. Among other things, if elvis is town, we should be able to find scum by picking out the worse case or two strung together against her.

I'll agree to that, I said I'd look into it a while back and never got around to it. I'll try to focus on that later today and Friday.

[bluesoul]

I disagree with everything [e_k] said about him in post 755.

Just noting this as a curiosity that I'm in full agreement with elvis and HH is apparently in full disagreement with the same statement. Don't know if it means anything but worth noting.

[bluesoul]

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

I also could not sleep last night or today and so I could be misreading it in context but just saying. Today was supposed to be a general-purpose catching up today but I've spent most of it in what's best described as a physical shutdown. Sorry. I'll aim for Sunday/Monday to deliver an analysis on the e_k bandwagon and validity of arguments used, though if someone wants to take an independent crack at it in the meantime please do, my schedule sucks right now and will be that way for the foreseeable future.

[bluesoul]

Way to overreact, I simply said there's no way to clear someone by their amount of activity. Do you really have an issue with that? See below for why I haven't gotten around to answering questions.

I also could not sleep last night or today and so I could be misreading it in context but just saying. Today was supposed to be a general-purpose catching up today but I've spent most of it in what's best described as a physical shutdown. Sorry. I'll aim for Sunday/Monday to deliver an analysis on the e_k bandwagon and validity of arguments used, though if someone wants to take an independent crack at it in the meantime please do, my schedule sucks right now and will be that way for the foreseeable future.

I did sleep some last night but I've got pretty bad nausea today and this bright computer screen isn't helping any so I'll try it again later.

[bluesoul]

However, I'm not sure that CTD as scum would really try to be as open as such.

I can't tell if that's based on metagame or just bad logic or even trying to cover for a scumbuddy, for now I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as more views on CTD would be nice, but I find leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility, I did it in my very first MTGS game and took it all the way to endgame.

Totally meta. I remember that newbie game that CTD mentioned. I was doctor and had to defend my actions heavily. CTD was pretty much the last person to be convinced by me. He came into the game pretty nonchalantly and didn't rock the waves. He was town. Then again he came in mid D3 where we were at a very crucial point. We are not here. Also, whenever I kick myself, CTD would heal.

Leading the town as scum is a big possibility, but to do so within the first few posts, it's tough to do I would imagine. I don't think CTD has rusted off the mafia joints quickly enough to do such a gutsy move.

That's fair enough and the kind of explanation I was looking for, thanks for not taking it the wrong way (others read way more into the question than I was anticipating).

Louisville sucks and I'm without power AGAIN, posting from the iPhone and hoping all will be well in the morning.

[bluesoul]

Here is who each player finds scummy, kind of in order:
MBL: CTD, elias, pablito
bluesoul: elias, DGB, Ether
huck: elvis, CTD, pablito, patrick, elias
pablito: DGB, ether, elias
patrick: DGB, elias
chamber: elias, elvis
CTD: MBL, bluesoul, DGB, CDB, Patrick
elias: DGB, bluesoul
CDB: elvis, DGB
Ether: elvis, DGB
elvis: CDB, DGB, Ether, MBL
DGB: bluesoul, elvis, elias, pablito

Here is who each player finds townish:
MBL: elvis, chamber, Huck
bluesoul: e_k
huck: bluesoul, chamber, dgb
pablito: cdb, mbl, e_k, huck
patrick: bluesoul, mbl, ether, elvis, ctd, pablito, huck
CTD: elvis, elias
chamber: nada
elias: maaaybe MBL, bluesoul
CDB: nada
Ether: Patrick, elias, CDB
elvis: elias
DGB: nada

Please correct me where I'm incorrect about your positions. I'll update this post after hearing from everyone. I wanted to make a summary to clarify where we stand today and possibly point out conflicts and oddities.

8 find DGB scummy!
7 find elias scummy
4 find elvis scummy
3 find pablito scummy
3 find bluesoul scummy
2 find CDB scummy
2 find MBL scummy
2 find Patrick scummy
2 find CTD scummy
2 find Ether scummy
none find chamber or Huck scummy

5 find elvis townish
3 find elias townish
3 find bluesoul townish
3 find Huck townish
3 find MBL townish
2 find chamber townish
1 finds CDB townish
1 finds DGB townish
1 finds Ether townish
1 finds CTD townish
1 finds pablito townish
1 finds Patrick townish

Interesting, thanks for this. For what it's worth your contributions have been protown in my opinion. An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive is respectable.

I do want to apologize for what's turned into an extended absence, work caught up with me and I had to take a vacation for physical and mental health reasons, I'll be quitting that job within a week or so and will just be working a 9 to 5. Can't wait. It is not laziness, not entirely anyway. I will admit I'm a little disappointed the day's taken this long and we're seemingly at an impasse, until the 11th at the very earliest (when DGB returns) and I don't see the game randomly picking up speed at this point.

Yes, actually. I believe that his childish attitude is genuine, and I believe he'd try to tone it done as scum. He's clearly proud of his achievements as scum, and I don't think he'd sully that reputation by behaving like this. I do believe he's a bad enough player to take a piss on a game like that as town though, since he clearly doesn't give a crap about his reputation as a town player.

Oh man, that's surprisingly thought-provoking. There's a nugget of validity to the statement, but I don't know if I can commit to the thought that boils down to "he's town because he's playing antitown".

For the purpose of discussion/content I'm gonna list the players from my opinion of scummiest to towniest.

1.) DGB - Despite dropping off the radar recently she's still been the most consistent to me. My position may be somewhat unique as most of the posts I find scummy reference me, so I'm naturally somewhat biased.
2.) Ether - I didn't realize it had been this long since she's posted but it's been nearly a month. Re-reading her posts she acts in a passive-aggressive manner, Ether 14 and 16 she stays on the wagon while expressing trepidation about the outcome, while offering a safe claim to DGB. Not 20 minutes after DGB points the finger at Elvis (DGB 47), she hops on the wagon (Ether 20). After the re-read she's even higher on my list than previously, but without her being present I don't know what to do for it.
3.) Elias - I'm revising my opinion due to recent discussion within the past few pages. I still believe that there are a few facets of his game thus far that are inherently antitown, namely citing his own playstyle repeatedly for the purpose of "null tells" (and playing down his ability as town, which is a great way to atone for sloppy scum play). Some of his posts on the defensive feel like frustrated town, some feel like cornered scum. The recent activity would have him sliding down the scumdar a bit.
4.) CTD - Most of it is just in the general tone in how he's dealt with Elias. I'll be the first to agree that his early absence was cause for discussion (and anger) but this is a little ridiculous. We get it, was it really necessary to drag it all the way into October? I still don't like CTD 17 and 18, which was hyperreaction to my statement that "leading the town as scum is a very effective and realistic possibility" (bluesoul 76).

To summarize:

Me: Pablito, I'm not sure why you're clearing CTD as town just because he's active. Scum can be active too.
CTD: So you're calling me scum?
Me: No, I'm saying it's not enough to clear you.
CTD: Well you obviously don't want people to be active. I'm active and therefore protown.

Pablito later clarified that his statement was based on metagame, but the question lingers. Why such a violent reaction to a common sense statement? If all it took to be protown was to be active...wouldn't it be in the scum's best interest to be equally active?

His interactions with MBL are quite interesting but I'm not comfortable with trying to reach a conclusion on it without more information down the line.

Going to bed, will try to finish the list tomorrow.

[bluesoul]

Bluesoul's timing is curious. He comes back right as his biggest aggressor comes under fire, and he doesn't adress any of the things I've brought up against him. Did you think I'd forget about you just because I have to do some defending of my own, Bluesoul?

Your accusation has been noted and disregarded.

No worries that he might be trying to lead the town, then? "An effort to keep a game with above-average reputation alive"... I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I was doing.

Happy with my vote. Would appreciate more people on bluesoul.

It's an issue of quality versus quantity. I am commending MBL for the quality of his posts, not the quantity. I maintain that the quantity of posts is not indicative of alignment.

[bluesoul]

And no, I have not forgotten your questions but most of them are outdated to the point of being irrelevant, and I think this list will be more beneficial than answering your questions. However I slept late today and will be going in to work soon, but I will try and finish the list tonight.

[bluesoul]

The implication you're making here is that MBL=quality, CTD=quantity, and if that's what you're saying, you're gonna have to substantiate it. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to assume you're using double-standards.

Actually I don't

have

to do a goddamn thing. I may elaborate on it if I feel like it, but then again I may not. I asked a question a while back about double standards that never got answered so perhaps you can share in my pain for a while. Perhaps I simply find MBL more protown than I find you, god knows I thought Sarc and bird played scummily.

And if you'll bother to read I didn't commend him for that post, I commended him for the sum of his posts. I simply thanked him for doing the legwork in coming up with that list.

If we're going to talk about double standards, how about calling me out for going after easy to attack players and then doing the same thing yourself in attacking Elias?

[bluesoul]

Bluesoul, I still want a response about your changing stance on DGB, because as it stands, it looks like a change solely with the momentum.

Finding her more actions more protown than previously doesn't mean I can't still think she's scummy. She went from very scummy to just scummy and there's really nobody moreso at the moment. Call it what you will, at this point I'm bored with this day, we're not accomplishing a damn thing. I'd love to see a concrete deadline placed so we have to act

somewhere

.

[bluesoul]

Hello all. Since this game has gone on for 4 months and 39 pages and we're still at day 1, it's clear that nothing interesting has happened, so I'm not going to bother reading.

In fact, I'm also not going to bother thinking.

Vote: elvis_knits

because DGB has an excellent point on pablito. Also, this game needs more mindless bandwagon voting.

Goddamnit Xyl's so cool. I love him.

Unvote, vote DGB

. I still don't think elvis is scum either.

[bluesoul]

Hey bluesoul, thanks for confirming that elvis is your scumbuddy.

So me, elvis, pablito, and elias eh? You're obviously talented.

I'm too fucked up and happy right now to be any meaner than that but I don't think elvis is scum, and I've yet to see anyone make a very convincing case for it.

[bluesoul]

However, I'm not pleased with bluesoul's vote. I don't see how that's much else except to bring a counter wagon at this time. The counterwagon could've been elias, but bluesoul is clearly made the decision at this time who the counterwagon is.

FOS: bluesoul

I'm very much awaiting Lowell's next post and what he might hold.

I was on the elias wagon, moving to DGB gave a larger wagon. We've got 9 days to get something decided and one, I was already okay with a DGB lynch, and two, DGB's wagon is now larger for my vote.

Also Xyl continues being my hero.

[bluesoul]

EBWODP: 8 days, not 9.

[bluesoul]

I didn't really get what I was looking for from the town when I voted CTD. Which may be telling--perhaps his scumpartners didn't see him as threatened and shrugged off my vote.

One-vote wagons have consistently failed to do anything this game so I don't think it's telling either way, personally.

[bluesoul]

People who have expressed that they are suspicious of Bluesoul, or a willingness to lynch him:
Elvis_knits
DGB
Patrick
Elias (? not sure if he actually ever committed to this without checking, but that's how I remember it)

Why

is it that I'm the only one to ever vote this guy?

Because 3 of the 4 are on the DGB wagon? You don't think that's a little telling?

[bluesoul]

unvote, vote bluesol

. 982 is just weirdly nonchalant. He's faking it.

No way dude, Xyl's awesome. And I don't find elvis scummy. What exactly am I faking? That's a strange reason to vote someone.

[bluesoul]

I say we have them make cases against each other and lynch whoever comes out scummiest.

Provided they don't take too long I think that's reasonable.

[bluesoul]

I'm going out for a little while but I'll try and respond to as much of that as I can when I get back (an hour or two).

[bluesoul]

And let me say I'm not over with today, I

was

over the endless dragging on without any results, but the atmosphere's completely different in the face of a deadline. I haven't given up on the day at all, and I want us to get it right. Back in a bit.

[bluesoul]

That's right, she(elvis) hasn't (claimed). I believe she had the same number of votes when she REFUSED to claim as I did when I soft claimed.

I could be wrong on this, because it plays into WIFOM to some extent. But you used a softclaim to get people off your back. elvis didn't. So I feel like you would owe us a full claim more than she does.

Seriously, scumbag, in your heart of hearts, you don't actually think that. My spidey sense is vibrating from an intense jet of of MBL-manipulation pheromones flooding my sensilla.

So now it's MBL, Me, Elvis, Elias,

and

Pablito as scum? Or do you make it a habit of calling anyone that talks to you a scumbag?

[bluesoul]

DGB's not likely to get lynched so you're my second option...

...I'm somewhat surprised to say that DGB has backed off my scumdar significantly recently. It's a marked playstyle change recently, I can't decide if that's in itself scummy.

This is a really weird juxtaposition of statements to find in one post. Please clarify.

In one of your next posts you say:

She appeared scummy for most of the game and her posts lately have been significantly less so. That doesn't mean I'm exonerating her entirely, it means that to me now she's had both scummy and protown moments. Just a quirk you're going to have to deal with.

But she's still your top choice for lynch at the time you write this point? Something's not jiving.

I don't see the issue honestly, I'm acknowledging that she had protown moments as well as scummy moments, and at that point in time they were significant in that they were the first posts of hers that I read as having any townie points at all. It didn't eliminate past actions or clear her as town, and back in the present the goodwill is gone, it was not

enough

protown content to do anything to convince me that the current actions by her are not the actions of a scumbag.

In other words, she went from a 10 to a 8.5 or 9 then back to a 10. I never said I thought she was town, I said she was looking

more protown than previously

. I'm surprised this has been a point of contention for so long.

OK, bluesoul, you've made it clear you're done with today and just want a lynch. Well today's not over yet, and actually the real work is just beginning

right now

. And you appear to be vulnerable to lynch, primarily because of your self-acknowledged "insincere, indifferent" playstyle.

Let me stop for a moment. I hate to point to real-life events in a game because to me it always seems like a cop-out, but in about the month to six weeks prior to October 10th my job was really getting the best of me mentally and emotionally, and I did treat a few of you badly and for that I apologize. The "I don't

have

to do a goddamn thing" statement occurred on the 9th when was just about when things were coming to a head (that was actually the night I gave my boss two days notice I was leaving which went horribly). I quit and started a new job that next Monday (the 13th) and honestly right now life's as good as I think I've ever had it. You'll likely see a marked difference in tone from here out as I'm not carrying all that stress. I don't know if I'm trying to justify my actions as much as simply trying to elaborate on them, give you a bit better explanation.

This deadline has been a wonderful thing, has anyone else noticed that the

quality

of posts has skyrocketed when we're on a shot clock? I'm watching the game as closely as I can watch it working a 9 to 5. I agree the real task has finally arrived, and not a moment too soon.

Your top four recently were DGB, Ether, elias, CTD. I think it's time for you to lead the town and make your case.

That one may have to wait for the weekend, or at least until I can answer CTD's 1063.

[bluesoul]

I invite everyone to read bluesoul's contributions over the last couple of pages, and to take note of what he comments on, and more importantly, what he doesn't comment on. I find it significant that he doesn't react at all when Patrick calls him on "evasiveness and sketchiness". Those are pretty serious accusations. Why doesn't bluesoul defend himself against this?

Because for the most part Patrick got it right. I haven't really ever melded my gut and singular reads into a collective case against DGB, for some reason.

He outright refused to answer to legitimate concerns of mine, which to me suggests that he doesn't have any answers.

It should also suggest that being overly demanding and aggressive is likely to get you disregarded. Which it did, and for the most part continues to do. If you would,

civilly

, tell me what you want answered and I'll do so to the best of my abilities. At times you have been; at times you have not. If it has to do with something I wrote in July or August, don't be amazed if I don't have stellar answers in October.

Look at the amount of of contribution he's provided this month. A series of posts on October 9th. A half-assed defense on October 17th, one which felt like pulling teeth to get out of him (he never explained what moments of DGB he found protown, and he hasn't to this day. This is a question I've asked him a long time ago). And then again a string of posts starting on October 21st (after Xyl replaced in). He is doing the absolute bare minimum, and while he claims to do so out of boredom, I strongly feel he's doing it for lurking purposes. He doesn't answer questions, or takes his sweet time coughing them up.

Stop letting this scumbag slide already.

Odd that I'm getting called out for lurking when over a third of the town has less posts this month than me (Chamber, HackerHuck, Pabs, elvis, and Patrick, in order). And yes, there was a great deal of boredom involved, we've been plowing the same ground for three months now with nothing to show for it but 43 pages for the inevitable next set of replacements to have to slog through. (Or they can do what Xyl did and...don't) Maybe you aren't bored because you didn't have to go through an additional two months of nothing happening. Anyway see my previous paragraph and get back to me if you want.

[bluesoul]

Elias, while I understand why you're doing it moving your vote off the top wagon with a week left till deadline, onto a player with zero votes, is amazingly antitown.

[bluesoul]

I never said I wouldn't move it back at deadline.

You never said you would either, how am I to assume such a thing? Perhaps it bears further scrutiny tomorrow but at this point I don't think the town can afford to be divided any further. I realize this is coming off as a defense of pabs, and I suppose it is as I don't have strong feelings either way on him and we may have all kinds of info tomorrow, so I personally won't be voting him today.

[bluesoul]

DGB's massive OMGUS on me HAS to mean she has a power role and is town. If not, she's playing it up magnificently. She finds me town until I vote her again or ask for a claim. It's visceral.. I can feel it.

So are you going to elaborate any more than that or you're just content with clearing her of everything prior to now because she called you scum? Are you joking?

[bluesoul]

So hey, that's good, you're still voting her too. Can I buy some pot from you?

[bluesoul]

MBL has become really confusing lately, I'm not even sure at this point where he stands on Pablito (and Elias by association of starting the wagon), CTD, or me, much less DGB.

FOS: MBL

for being confusing in the clutch.

[bluesoul]

Actually I don't like this at all, Xyl has it right on that it matches up rather well with a scenario with Scum-MBL and Town-DGB. MBL 150, 158, and 167 all give scenarios involving DGB, 158 in particular, that reek of damage mitigation for tomorrow. I've gotta admit I'm a little bothered by this because MBL's been giving me town vibes most of the game.

[bluesoul]

I'm more willing to lynch any of the following:

Elias_the_thief
Patrick
CrashTextDummy
HackerHuck
Xylthixlm

then anyone else, but if need be will likely still hammer others near deadline.

You haven't so much as mentioned DGB in two months and that was when you

were

voting her, so what's changed?

[bluesoul]

bluesoul, can you honestly tell me DGB's softclaim doesn't weigh heavily upon you as you weigh it against her play?

No, but that has a lot to do with my #mafia background, softclaims or situation where the wagonee would refuse to claim were generally either Super-Saints or trapped scum, and trapped scums are likely to stick to their guns (pardon the pun) and not cave to pressure later because of the additional complications providing a later claim generally spawns. Softclaiming power is a hindrance to the town, so perhaps it does weigh upon me but with the opposite effect of what it's apparently doing to you.

[bluesoul]

You think I'm joking? bluesoul, back me up here.

Also, don't ignore the first part of my post.

Perfect may be a bit of a stretch but I can safely say I'm going to be almost useless in trying to pin down Xyl either way, he's one of the quickest minds I've ever played with and a couple hundred games with him yielded very similar play as scum and town. His play now is very similar, if slightly more verbose which is understandable and a null tell.

I'll move my vote to the largest wagon on the 29th.

I'm suddenly much less comfortable with Lowell's vote on me.

[bluesoul]

You deserve a wagon. It's pretty easy to pick out the least active poster and say "I don't trust that vote" but it doesn't make you any less scummy.

Because of a gut read based on one post out over over a hundred?

[bluesoul]

unvote, vote: elvis

unvote, vote: MBL

unvote, vote: Bluesoul

It wouldn't shock me in the least if this is 0-for-3.

I hope I don't make an ass out of myself by agreeing with you but I do. I'm rather convinced of my own alignment, after a re-read your posts a few pages back aren't quite as confusing as I'd initially read them as (mea culpa), and I'm not convinced about the earlier cases on e_k.

I was hoping my suspicion about Ether would be somehow mollified by her replacement but it's only compounding it. The entirety of his case to date has been the following.

Hello all. Since this game has gone on for 4 months and 39 pages and we're still at day 1, it's clear that nothing interesting has happened, so I'm not going to bother reading.

In fact, I'm also not going to bother thinking.

Vote: elvis_knits

because DGB has an excellent point on pablito. Also, this game needs more mindless bandwagon voting.

Goddamnit Xyl's so cool. I love him.

Unvote, vote DGB

. I still don't think elvis is scum either.

unvote, vote bluesol. 982 is just weirdly nonchalant. He's faking it.

How did we get from that to this, exactly?

You deserve a wagon. It's pretty easy to pick out the least active poster and say "I don't trust that vote" but it doesn't make you any less scummy.

[bluesoul]

Unvote, Vote Lowell

bluesoul has a posse.

Claim or die, etc., etc., etc.

[bluesoul]

Not a big fan of this wagon (mostly because of the people who are on it), but let's see how it plays out.

I'm suddenly much less comfortable with Lowell's vote on me.

You were comfortable with it before?

I was indifferent to it before. Same story as chamber's vote on me, if there's no explanation for a vote against me I typically ignore it, if I can afford to. DGB pushing the count against me up to three votes was significant enough that the vote with no explanation became worth pursuing.

For those keeping score at home, "he's faking it" is not an explanation here on

Earth

.

[bluesoul]

What are you even saying here?

Why do you think my post 1157 was scummy timeliness? It sounds like you think I knew lowell was about to post a soft claim so I posted my evidence first. Only way that would be possible is if me and lowell are scum and can day talk. Do you think the scum can day talk in this game? Or do you KNOW the scum can day talk in this game because you're scum?

Are you insane, or are you just scum? Your scum daytalk insinuation is such a trashy tactic. You don't just sound like scum, you sound like desperate, manipulating scum.

Odd that you didn't call Sarcastro out for posing a nearly identical question to me. Your ad hom does not mesh with the merely mild curiosity you expressed earlier in the game.

Right. MBL and I contrived and planned a random argument about percentages that was eventually refuted by the other party...when? At night? There hasn't been a night.

How do you know whether or not the scum were allowed to talk before the game started?

OGML, please explain what it is that you expected to me to comment on and why not commenting on it makes me scum.

Anyway, DGB is scum.

Unvote, Vote: DrippingGoofball

Explain how your noticing this about bluesoul: "How do you know whether or not the scum were allowed to talk before the game started?" doesn't lead to a vote for bluesoul?

I'm just curious with your thought process here.

[bluesoul]

You still are not explaining what you meant by I had "scummy timing." You're clearly insinuating something about my timing should prove I'm scum. If I'm wrong, why won't you explain what you meant?[/b]

Only your death can prove that you're scum.

I did explain it. Maybe you just didn't get it, scumbag. I repeat.

The tiniest bit of momentum towards Ether/Lowell, and bam! You vote Lowell and rehash an old case against Ether and present it again. Considering that Ether didn't post much, was hardly scummy by any reasonable standard, and was just replaced by Lowell, I find that the TIMING of your vote and rehashed case is very scummy indeed.

Do you get it now?

^^^ this is a good point. Idiots did pile on me quickly.

unvote, vote elvis

.

The only two people voting Elvis are the two people I'm most suspicious of. Given that I find e_k town the evidence of an Ether/Lowell-DGB link increases (the first instance was Ether defending DGB by providing a safeclaim). Combined with CTD on me, a CTD-DGB-Lowell scumteam seems possible.

Unvote, Vote DGB

Unofficial Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

Elias_the_thief: 4 (chamber, pablito, MrBuddyLee, Xylthixlm)
DrippingGoofball: 4 (Patrick, Elias_the_thief, elvis_knits, bluesoul)
elvis_knits: 2 (DrippingGoofball, Lowell)
bluesoul: 1 (CrashTextDummie)

Not Voting: 1 (HackerHuck)

[bluesoul]

The only two people voting Elvis are the two people I'm most suspicious of. Given that I find e_k town the evidence of an Ether/Lowell-DGB link increases (the first instance was Ether defending DGB by providing a safeclaim). Combined with CTD on me, a CTD-DGB-Lowell scumteam seems possible.

First of all, I don't see how two people voting for the same person represents evidence for a link. I find e_k town as well, and the fact that those two are sitting together on a dead wagon suggests to me that they're

not

scum together.

Or at least that's not how I would expect scum to play.

WIFOM. I already find them suspicious, I am simply pointing out similarities and connections as I see them for possible use later.

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

Lowell: 5 (MrBuddyLee, Elias_the_thief, Xylthixlm, elvis_knits, bluesoul)

bluesoul: 3 (CrashTextDummie, Lowell, DrippingGoofball)

Elias_the_thief: 2 (chamber, pablito)
DrippingGoofball: 1 (Patrick)

Not Voting: 1 (HackerHuck)

And neither is this. Needless to say, I am not impressed by your suggested scum-team. Did this vote-count factor into your thoughts?

Actually, it didn't, I didn't look at any vote count but the one I posted, which

did

factor into my thoughts. Reposted here:


Unofficial Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

Elias_the_thief: 4 (chamber, pablito, MrBuddyLee, Xylthixlm)
DrippingGoofball: 4 (Patrick, Elias_the_thief, elvis_knits, bluesoul)

elvis_knits: 2 (DrippingGoofball, Lowell)
bluesoul: 1 (CrashTextDummie)

Not Voting: 1 (HackerHuck)

All three of you are off the main wagons, which given the timeframe I have to view as antitown. I

did

factor that into my possible scumteam. I didn't notice all three of you were voting me as well, which points to the same WIFOM you just tried to use on me above. No, one normally wouldn't expect a scum team to all wagon the same person, but this is an Invitational and I remain open to all possibilities. I would hope you do the same.

[bluesoul]

This is not really about WIFOM as far as I can see, bluesoul, though you are of course correct that everything is possible, and one has to keep an open mind about these kinds of things.

What you are suggesting though is that none of the scum are busing DGB, and none of them are helping her out by pushing the rival wagon. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. It's usually in the best interest of scum to influence the lynch in some way.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's a natural one. Especially considering the kind of blanket statement you're using to lump us all together ("they're all off the main wagons, ergo they fit as a scum-team"). Besides, I have given my reasons for not being on one of the main wagons. Do you object to them?

And where does HackerHuck figure in this equation?

You make good points and suffice it to say I'm less suspicious of you than I am of the other two. As for HH, his absence is a mystery, and rapidly becoming an inconvenience. If he manages to let the deadline pass and he's still not voting someone I believe it's going to require an explanation tomorrow.

I

would

rather see you on one of the main wagons since, as you've said, it looks like the town is rather narrow-minded today and it may afford us more leverage in leading to a lynch. Feel free to vote me tomorrow, but right now I think your vote is more valuable on one of the players at 4.

I should note that I'm almost never going to try and run up a player solely because of their interactions or "connection" with another player, it's too open to manipulation and good scum are more than capable of toeing the line and turning connections into null tells. However with so many good players present I do need to post my thoughts on possible connections every now and then or I'm honestly not going to remember them on down the line. Out of the two Ether/Lowell-DGB moments I find the earlier one (Ether offering DGB the claim of Supersaint) much more suspicious than Lowell hopping off of DGB and onto e_k as soon as he was given a reason to.

[bluesoul]

Mod: Can you be more specific on the deadline?

Time zones and all that worry me, I'll vote/hammer Elias tomorrow if there is no claim.

[bluesoul]

I like to see that kind of town lose, and let that be a lesson for future games.

Voting yourself makes you the worst player (and sport) here, so your little tirade is pretty much irrelevant.

[bluesoul]

Wow. I think MBL set himself up for failure a little too well there.

So it is a safe assumption that MBL took out chamber, and the scum took out MBL. MBL made a lot of accusations and conclusions. It's worth considering that MBL violently attacked e_k for making the insinuation that there was a possible SK. MBL turning up dead could mean that e_k called his bluff and scumkilled him. It could also be scum planting circular logic based on this exact statement.

I think this puts us significantly ahead of the scum, we're down a scumbag and an SK on day 2, the logical setup for 12-man games is 3 and 1, 4 and 1 is not entirely implausible given the swingy nature of the SK but properly pooling our information from here on out should net us a win rather quickly.

[bluesoul]

Morning. My initial feeling is that bluesoul's behaviour around DGB looks even worse now that we know DGB was scum

Buh? I was on DGB from post 7, and I do not have it in me to bus a teammate from the get-go, I don't have fun at the expense of others in this. Check any or every game you want, I have not and will not do such a thing.

[bluesoul]

Additionally Xyl can confirm that I

never

deliberately bussed a player in #mafia,

ever

, and I played I don't know how many hundred games there. I consider it grief play, and amazingly presumptuous to think that one player is so much better than another that they would throw them under the bus and try and win it solo.

It's a question of common courtesy, and sportsmanship.

[bluesoul]

It's worth considering that MBL violently attacked e_k for making the insinuation that there was a possible SK. MBL turning up dead could mean that e_k called his bluff and scumkilled him. It could also be scum planting circular logic based on this exact statement.

I totally called MBL was SK and MBL tried to insist that having an SK in the game was ridiculous. lol.

So, I could sort of see what you mean here because sometimes differing sucm groups attack each other very hard, etc.

BUT, I don't think it makes sense for me to be DGB's scum buddy. You say that it doesn't make sense for you to be her scum buddy since you were onto her from post 7. I tend to agree with you. Your behavior towards DGB doesn't suggest a strong tie. But I think the same is true for me. Give a little read to our interraction and see what you think.

Also, I think general consensus was that MBL was town. I don't remember anyone attacking him that hard except me. Certainly a wagon never really got rolling on him. Although I think Elias was voting him at certain times. Anyway, I mean to say that I think MBL was killed because he was thought to be town.

Sorry that wasn't very clear, let me restate.

MBL turning up dead could mean that e_k called his bluff and scumkilled him. It could also be scum killing MBL to plant the entire thing at an innocent e_k's feet, planting the seeds of circular logic.

They're both possibilities, however likely or remote one views them as either one has a valid chance of being what happened.

I actually believe Lowell's claim, for what it's worth.

[bluesoul]

He was a little too sure of the fact that he was going to be dead today, but to all intents and purposes I thought he was a townie. To have an SK make such a bold statement is unusual but likely a very good play. Just didn't work.

[bluesoul]

chamber - chamber was playing? Not much info here.

Perhaps not in the interactions but as a habit I take town-chamber's thought process very seriously and am re-reading now that we know his alignment.

[bluesoul]

And I'm pretty sure Lowell explained his kill at the top of the page.

[bluesoul]

I'm here, I'm sorry. I've been working on a new project for the last week and it's taken up every waking moment I'm not at work.

I'm sorry but I don't think I need to keep justifying my actions on DGB when she turned up scum. If you really think I'm going to bus someone for three straight months with no pressure or provocation, vote me. I'm not going to take it very seriously, but knock yourself out. For what it's worth, if DGB's tone had stayed as protown as it was at the point that got me to saying as such, I'd have likely moved off of her altogether, or at least re-evaluated my position on her. But she didn't, it didn't last terribly long and I'm left with one point in time where I had doubts about her and the rest where I was suspicious.

I voted elias mainly because, if I recall correctly, the DGB wagon had effectively stalled out at that point, and I even indicated as such to elias himself. What's wrong with making him think I was suspicious of him for a while? If I acted like I

wasn't

suspicious how likely is he to take my vote seriously?

There are 9 alive, and about a 99% chance there's still two scum to be found in:

Elias
Elvis
Patrick
Pablito
CTD
HackerHuck
Xyl

I'm clearing Lowell altogether, and I'm moderately convinced of my own alignment. 2 scum in 7 of 9...

we need to start considering a massclaim while the odds are stacked in our favor

. We'll have at worst two days and two nights (including today) to play with if Lowell holds his fire, or less and perhaps take a risk if we have him fire at nights.

Thoughts?

[bluesoul]

The main problem I have is that you still haven't pointed out specific posts of DGB that you found pro-town.

DGB 87-96. They just didn't ring with the scummy vibes that the rest of her posts were for me.

[bluesoul]

Elias
Elvis
Patrick
Pablito
CTD
HackerHuck
Xyl

Is this list in any particular order?

Yes, it is the order of the alive players on page 1.

I don't know why you think I find e_k suspicious, I'm leaning protown with her. The list above are simply suspect by definition.

I need to go back and re-read Ether's and Lowell's posts.

Nobody bothered to comment on my proposal to massclaim.

[bluesoul]

Plus, your analysis was pretty convincing.

It really was pretty solid, I'll agree. Enough to make me add HackerHuck to the re-read pile.

[bluesoul]

I'm not a strategy person, so I'm not good about knowing when we should massclaim. I'm not good at making plans or outguessing the mod. I would go either way.

Normally I wouldn't suggest it this early but we're so far ahead of the scum right now, I think it's a definite possibility we could bust it wide open with a massclaim.

While Elias would obviously have the best knowledge of the mod, I'd say Xyl and I both know quite a bit about how he sets up games, and what I've seen thus far is consistent with what I'd expect out of a Shea game.

[bluesoul]

Actually I have no idea how Shea sets up games. On the other hand, I'm pretty good at breaking setups.

Oh. I assumed he talked to you about it. I stand corrected then.

[bluesoul]

I'm still around, but still having a lot of time issues getting in the way of playing. I don't really understand a lot of the attention I'm getting for my stance on DGB. There were certainly others who shared my opinions on her. I'm ambivalent about the massclaim, mainly because I've never really gotten much out of them myself, but I've also never seen one actually lead to a scum win. I'm sure someone can prove me wrong, but that's just a reason why I'm ambivalent.

I'm actually reading back earlier in day one and have a couple of questions. In reading back to where the first DGB wagon hit its peak, I’d actually like an explanation from Bluesoul regarding post 276 – I don’t see what Ether was saying there and I didn’t see any follow-through from Bluesoul after we got DGB's alignment. Bluesoul, I'm also curious about your thought process regarding the potential SuperSaint claim from goofball. Why did you suddenly switch from liking DGB to wanting Ether to go down?

Fortunately the activity level isn't making it hard for me to keep up, but I'm still having trouble getting the time to reread parts of Day 1.

The thought process was slightly different than than it is now, due to new information, but Ether was the first one to bring up the possibility of a SS, which you just don't do unless you're scum tossing your buddy a safe-claim, or want to show off (or a third possibility which I'll get to below). Neither one of those two reasons are protown and if DGB turned up scum, it makes Ether look all the worse for suggesting it.

The third reason, of course, is Ether pushes for DGB to claim SS; if she does, Ether vigs her that night. So in the end Ether probably was trying to do the right thing, just going about it in a way I didn't like.

[bluesoul]

Okay, I really am slow at strategy, so people will have to comment on these thoughts and correct where necessary.

I did think of one thing: it seems the PRs in the game are famous player names (mith, Adel). So scum will either have to try to fake a player or go townie (unless they have safe claims, which they probably don't since DGB didn't claim anything).

I wouldn't put providing safe claims past the mod, and I don't know how far a mass nameclaim would really get us.

The up-side to this is even if the claim doesn't help us too much today, the scum are locked into their claimed role. So depending on the other roles out there, we may be able to catch them lying. We may be able to catch them lying about choices through other pro-town roles. Or we may be able to catch them making a choice when they shouldn't have made one (like if they claimed townie).

The downside is all power roles are exposed.

Does that cover everything?

For the most part it does. The massclaim has three major effects.

1.) The possibility is created of conflicting claims which normally turns the lynch into a 50/50 chance of scum or better (usually better with more info).
2.) Yes, all power roles are exposed and that is inherently risky. But the upside is with all the power roles working together, they can come up with a plan that kills the scum before the scum can kill enough power roles to knock the plan out of commission.
3.) When things start going as unplanned, it becomes much easier to determine who the source of the problems are (the scum).

Given that HH is at L-1 and I'm not opposed to voting him I would like a claim from him at this point.

@CTD: I've been withholding my vote in hope for a little more information today so I'd feel a little more confident in who I'm voting.

After re-reading OGML's posts I felt they leaned slightly town but HH and OGML's voting style is rather interesting. Neither of them

ever

voted DGB. OGML 16 yields this excerpt.

If DGB is a supersaint/wants to claim supersaint, she should do it soon. I'm willing to be the hammer with or without her outright claiming to be a supersaint, because I think its already unlikely she's actually an ss (as I said earlier), and I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway.

Two things here bother me.

1.

"If DGB...wants to claim supersaint, she should do it soon."

- Ether had an excuse for drawing out an SS claim. OGML doesn't and there's no way in hell we've got two vigs and an SK (and both vigs happened to take the same approach). The only real reason I see here, given that Ether'd already raised the possibility at that point, is OGML's trying to get DGB to claim

something

just to mount a defense and possibly draw out some town claims before she goes down.

2.

"I'm willing to be the hammer with or without her outright claiming to be a supersaint, because I think its already unlikely she's actually an ss (as I said earlier), and I think as one of the bad lurkers I'm probably a good person to be hammering a possible supersaint anyway."

- OGML could be using the opportunity to rack up some fake townie points, especially if he knows damn well DGB is scum. Mindless sacrifices to the SS just don't happen, at least not without a claim as to

why

they're qualified to be the hammer/sacrifice. Not that OGML would have anything to worry about in the first place.

Just because I'm curious if it'll bring any interesting patterns out, here's their full vote history.

7/8-8/18 - Sarc (voted all the way till replacement by HH)
8/18-9/19 - No Vote
9/19-10/25 - Elvis_knits (deadline 10/30)
10/25-10/28 - No Vote
10/28-End D1 - Elias
Start D2-Present - No Vote

HH 3 has him agreeing with DGB's case on e_k and says he's leaning town on her while leaning scum towards Sarc, e_k, Pabs, and Patrick.

HH 9 agrees with e_k that we shouldn't rule out an SK just because MBL says it's ridiculous, a slightly protown play in retrospect but scum have just as much to fear from an SK.

HH 10 yields " I'm not feeling that DGB is scum this game...I do like her case on E_K and I'm even more concerned about why that wagon stalled out."

HH 12 again expresses disapproval of the e_k wagon dissolving.

HH 18 I didn't notice before.

I'm now a little concerned about my previous thoughts. CTD - one of my top three suspects - manages to call out my other top three suspects as being solidly town and not worth pursuing today.

I cant fathom that CTD as scum would call out all of his scum-buddies as solid town, so that means I'm wrong about at least a couple of them - or that CTD is really bad at spotting scum.

This feels all wrong. Given that there was no real information yesterday, I certainly wouldn't discard my suspicions because someone else said my leads looked town. I really don't know what to make of this.

HH 26 deals with Elias and has a pretty protown vibe.

HH 32 unvotes e_k with 5 days to deadline because "no longer sold enough on her to be able to convince enough people to switch". Odd as most of the relevant content immediately prior to the unvote didn't deal with e_k at all.

HH 33 yields this.

I'm still leaning toward DGB as town although that has softened lately with the odd flip-flopping on MBL. As for her claiming, I must be missing something, because I felt like that request came somewhat out of the blue considering how far back her softclaim was.

Personally I'm indifferent about her claiming, mainly because I've seen her throw out stupid fake claims as town before.

Emphasis mine. This has an odd ring to it, and reminds me of OGML 16 above where HH could be racking up fake townie points if DGB falseclaims.

HH 36 gives a retrospection on DGB after she was revealed. Apparently e_k and I have no chance of being scum together. To be clear, I think e_k's play so far in the game has been consistently good, but I'm not clearing her by any means, especially since I had the same feelings about MBL.

HH 37 argues with CTD for a 2nd time. Seems to have a "okay, I'm scummy, but you're scummier" vibe to it.

----

What to make of all this? HH's early associations and OGML's history before him makes him a fair suspect, in my opinion. Would like even more to see a claim after having compiled that.

[bluesoul]

Of course, it's really up to the vig.

This. If we let the confirmed player do what he thinks is best, we minimize the chance of scum subverting the choice.

I'm a bit surprised to see nobody's unvoted HH after the vanilla claim. Seems you guys are pretty sold on him?

[bluesoul]

Vote HackerHuck

Not sure we're making a perfect play here but when he doesn't bother making an adequate defense it's probably as good as it's gonna get today.

Try not to kill town, Lowell.

[bluesoul]

Interesting, I wonder if he knew he was one shot and intentionally failed to mention it, or if the mod concealed that. Guess it doesn't matter but doesn't lessen the curiosity.

Well, the good news as far as I can tell is now the game's gonna play out like a typical 7-manner, we aren't particularly ahead or behind,

except

we should have a fair amount of info at this point. The downside is I believe we've got quite a bit of power amongst the remaining town at this point. If we're gonna screw up, this is the point in the game where we're really likely to put ourselves in a bind if night actions start going uncoordinated. I really have to push for a massclaim now rather than later.

[bluesoul]

Having power is a downside?

No, the fact that we'll likely be losing power from here on out is.

[bluesoul]

I am a gunsmith, that is, I can tell whether or not someone has a gun. The role initially led me to believe I'd just be looking at vigs and scum but the appearance of MBL as SK explained a lot, followed by Lowell's claim.

My first result was chamber, as I knew I wasn't gonna get a read on him. Unfortunately Lowell fired on him that night,

but

when he claimed vig I felt that he was as good as cleared because it meshed with my role so well.

My second result was Xyl who is innocent, and thus I recommend he go last.

Hmm, I think I'd like to see elias go next actually.

[bluesoul]

I'm Cubsfan4ever, for what it's worth. The omission was inadvertent. I believe Patrick's still next.

[bluesoul]

It should be noted that in my opinion Pablito immediately became the lynch when he said he couldn't hammer, which is a liability to the town in the clutch. Having a result on him is good to know though. I believe Xyl has the correct play for today in his 1455.

@e_k, when I first saw cubsfan I thought I had a scum role. I don't know how much we can really read into the names, and given the information we've now got I would say it would be a last resort (using names as info).

[bluesoul]

Xylthixlm's plan looks excellent to me. That should be another scum down, guaranteed, without the risk of a mislynch. Based on the respective claims, I expect Pablito to come up scum.

I'd have to reread to find a potential 3rd mafiate, but both Pablito and Patrick should have provided plenty of material in case they're scum.

As for the rest of the claims:
I'm sceptical about Bluesoul's claim. I don't give much weight to the fact that he didn't name-claim, as it could just be sloppiness (though if Pablito is scum, it could very well be scummy sloppiness). More problematic in my view is choice of targets. While his reasoning for targeting chamber sounds sensible to me, he didn't provide one for targeting Xylthixlm, and I'm interested in hearing it. He seemed pretty pro-Xylthixlm to (particularly at the end of D1).

Of the claimed newbies, I'd probably check Elias for potential bussing. Xylthixlm has been cleared by Bluesoul (and while I've seen GFs who don't show up as having a gun, I don't think that's standard) as well as Patricks result (which is less reliable, but still), and Elvis continues looking very solid to me.

I am pro-Xyl up until the point I have an inspection on him. It's the same logic as chamber, I listen to them both and listen well because they have great minds for the game, but I don't typically buy into it until I have confirmation they're town. Inspecting Chamber was insurance against him clamming up and being hard to read as I can typically read him as scum

if

he talks enough. Xyl's playstyle is neutral, and I am equally satisfied with clearing someone of Xyl's caliber as I am with catching scum. As far as I was concerned it was a win-win situation.

Also, Patrick, you and I need to target the same person tonight as I expect one of us not to survive tonight should the game continue past today. Thoughts on a target?

[bluesoul]

Don't let it go to your head.

[bluesoul]

I don't find it unreasonable. Tracker & Gunsmith seems like a very powerful combination of investigative roles to me. A set-up with an SK, a mafia group and a vig (and be it one-shot) is swingy by definition considering the crosskill potential, and giving the town 2 investigative roles would be problematic balance-wise as well, in my opinion.

We also have no claimed healing roles so there is an element of balance to it.

Pablito is obviously the play today, if something does shake down tomorrow feel free to go after me, but after Patrick and I get another investigation in.

[bluesoul]

Interesting.

Sorry pabs, but I don't see any alternative lynch today even if you

can't

self-hammer, and here's why.

1. We have, at most, two scum left out of seven people.
2. We have a claimed tracking role, and a claimed non-targeting role that conflict.
3. Even

if

Patrick was trying to swing the game for the scum, and we lynch you, and you turn up town, tomorrow there will be 5 alive (lylo) and we lynch Patrick in that instance, who would be scum, but we would go into endgame with at least one confirmed townie (myself or Xyl).

Now, here's what worries me. DGB is listed as a mafia goon, so it stands to reason that one of the remaining scum is a mafia power role (one of our claimed vanillas). Pablito could even be a mafia priest, to balance another, more powerful mafia role. I shudder at the thought of a GF, but both Patrick and I do have inspections on Xyl and I think that lowers the odds of him being scum tremendously. While it doesn't clear him it does help him significantly and the fact of the matter is there's nothing else we can do at this point if Xyl is scum.

I get the feeling there's only one correct play for mine and Patrick's actions tonight. I believe this may be it.

If pablito is scum, Patrick and I both target the same person. That'll give us 3 clear out of 5 (Patrick or me, whichever one of us survives, Xyl, and the targeted person tonight) and we win either on D4 or D5, and there's always the possibility we hit scum and win the game outright tomorrow. Thus it doesn't really matter

who

we inspect as long as we both inspect the same person. Patrick, I'll defer to your choice as you've already had one good result.

If pablito is town, Patrick and I both inspect one of elias, elvis, and CTD, but give no indication as to which we inspect (in this scenario I see myself as the likely nightkill as tracking is less precise, either a 50% or 100% chance of working in this scenario depending on remaining scum). Patrick would almost assuredly be scum in this scenario as nothing else would really explain such a situation, but worst-case scenarios could point to a scum win based on power-role-related shenanigans (I do not find this likely though).

The other possibilities such as us both inspecting each other are prone to failure in the event that one of us is scum, or don't actually give us any more advantage than what we already have.

Thoughts?

[bluesoul]

The big problem: Say we lynch pablito and he's town, and there are 2 scum left. Scum kill bluesoul overnight. We lynch patrick (easy). Scum kill me overnight. That leaves elvis, elias, and CTD, with no one confirmed. So the pablito-town case isn't actually very good; we don't have enough confirmed innocents to stand the kills.

I did think about that and am hoping we don't have to explore that possibility as I don't think we have any recourse in that scenario but to play the kind of smart game we played Day 1. If that's how it shakes down there won't be any plan to speak of as any results will be too late. We'd just have to think our way to a win.

[bluesoul]

Patrick, you think pablito could fail the hammer and still be scum?

As to night choices... I'm not sure bluesoul and Patrick should coordinate. Keep the scum guessing, I say. But whatever. Either way we will get a result from one of you even if the other dies. I agree on checking CTD or Elias though. I think CTD is scummier.

Well, there's something to be said for keeping the scum guessing, but this is the safest play; it reduces the chances of a false negative due to a GF, if the scum try to kill our target, that's just as good as clearing them only our chances of winning go up as we'll have at least one investigative role in endgame. This all assumes pabs is scum, if he's not we may have problems.

And like I said, I don't care who we target tonight, I don't know if CTD as scum would really try and run me up all the way to the end. Elias seems a more likely choice.

[bluesoul]

I don't see how two investigations on one person covers for a possible GF, given that the scum gets to choose which investigative role to kill.

patrick and bluesoul each picking one of {elias, elvis, CTD} independently and not saying who until tomorrow seems like a better plan.

In that case whoever they would pick is going to die tonight anyway, why would they leave the person that could detect them alive?

[bluesoul]

Well, I guess the question is how much does pablito confirming his restriction clear him? It's a role I've never seen used but again, with our mod and his experience in #mafia with some bizarre roles, I find it certainly plausible. With it being a role I've never seen I don't know how likely it is to be a town role versus a scum role.

Actually, I think I've just realized something; not being able to hammer could be absolutely crushing for scum in the endgame. The role seems to open a whole can of worms in a 3-player scenario. If day starts and you don't notice, and the other two players cross votes...what happens? You ask someone to unvote so you can vote? Seems cumbersome and an unlikely scum role. I realize most of this argument applies for townies too but townies by nature have strength in numbers and it becomes much less likely for the situation to be a problem, again, until we get to endgame.

I don't know what to think at this point.

[bluesoul]

I know I called pablito a liability in the endgame but I didn't really grasp the extent of it until just now.

[bluesoul]

You know, from a pure balance perspective, Patrick's role makes much more sense. If he's not a tracker we've got a

very

underpowered town in what's supposed to be an Invitational game. I would expect an Invitational-class setup meaning, well, balanced. In this instance a tracker and mafia priest is not unfeasible.

[bluesoul]

Well, I guess we go one step at a time and see if pablito can confirm his role.

Vote pablito

I'll be targeting elias tonight.

[bluesoul]

Great job everyone.

To answer someone's question, I did know I was a one-shot (as you can see from the role). I didn't let on because I was hoping I would get NKed after I became basically a townie. I wish I could say I was nobly trying to deflect scumkills in order to protect actual powerroles, but really I just felt I had no idea what was going on and I figured I'd be better off dead.

You made a very solid play, the only argument I would have is that it could've

possibly

netted us another confirmed townie in endgame. In your position I don't know if I would've thought to make that play so very well done.

The town played a great game and got a stroke of luck with the scum taking out the SK night 1.

As for the town being overpowered, with a miller and investigation proof SK I don't think that's really the case.

Great job, guys. I'm glad I got back in it for this last game.

[bluesoul]

Very doubtful I'll ever play a game again here, but I don't regret playing this one.

My sentiments exactly, I'm glad my likely last game was such a good one.