Mini #564 - Mafia in Crubtown - Game Over
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Ok my obsevations so far
windy kirby voted mozsuggs for
QuantumFruit changed votes and gave a few reasons for doing sowindkirby wrote:giving poor VoD a SECOND vote.
Dark dude saw this as a possible scum band wagon under the guise of joke voting purposeful crap logic.QuantumFruit wrote:He totally just OMGUS-ed Akonas. Plus, I'm defending my man. (Yes, I'm purposefully embarrassing you, dear.)
Also, he came up on darkdude's dice roll the first time he did it. The dice are never wrong.
And if that's not enough reason, he's in two of my minis as well!
Cephrir jumps in with
Talitha votes QuantumFruit reasons:Cephrir wrote:Nobody's trying to bandwagon anyone or engineer anything this early in the game with ulterior motives
windkirby doesn't seem to think this a big deal and then says sorry if it sounded like he was defending QuantumFruitTalitha wrote:4 (joke) reasons? In one post? Looks like overkill in (jokily) justifying the vote.
She just looks a little jumpy to me.
zeddicus points out windkirbys vote as a double standard
Then we have Cephrir yet again
And now my thoughtsCephrir wrote:Don't try to read into people's random votes. Please. It doesn't work.
Quantum fruits votes and reasons attracted suspicion from Darkdude and Talitha
Im not surprised at this as I thought the reasons were overjustifying the vote even with the explanation they were all joke votes and "purposeful crap logic".
The double standard of Windkirbys vote is a valid point but I find the explanation from
more interestingwindkirby wrote:First page, zed. I wasn't serious.
And if you really need an explanation, mozsuggs's vote stuck out more to me. He wrote a lot more that PP did, seeming like he was trying to make the fact that he was putting a second vote on VoD more normal.
This post to me seems contrdictory, First you say it wasn't serious and then you give a reason that the post stood out more and go on to say mozsuggs post looked as if he was trying to make a 2nd vote appear more normal.
I get the impression you thought mozsuggs vote & post slightly scummy hence the reason for your vote, now to say it wasnt serious that leaves me confused.
Cephrirs comments seem a bit strong and I dont like his last one about reading into random votes. Yes I dont think there is a goldmine you can get out of them but to say there is nothing ("it doesnt work") to be gained form looking at them and "please dont" seems to me like he is trying to quiet things up. A lot of discussion starts form loking into random votes and many people have cast two votes already and imo any vote after the 1st round is questionable even if it is called random or jokey.
So for above stated reasons
Fos:windkirby
Fos:QuantumFruit
Vote:Cephrir-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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After all that posting im getting a better idea about certian people.
re:QF
Overjustify was the word I used to describe her four reason joke vote post.Akonas wrote:Also, QF, I think your problem is that you feel a need to overjustify everything. Think about what you're saying and whether you really need all those quotes.
I see QFs long posts heavy quoting and justifications as more indicitive of her style and not necessasarily of her alignment. The above stated things does give the impression of a post of large size but thin content.
I will have to watch QF closely to work out style from alignment, that said
IGMEOY:QF
re:Defensiveness
Being defensive is a natural reaction for both town and mafia and I think either alignment can be called up on being too defensive. The big difference is in the fact that mafia have much more to be defensive about than town. Im not sure I can make a general statement about it as a sign of scumminess as I believe each case (of defensiveness) has to be viewed in its context. To use it as a main argument without surporting evidence I would find this as more of a scum tell..............that said I will look at WK (windkirby)Pink Puppy wrote:A question for all: Is being "defensive" a sign of scumminess? And where do you draw the line between answering people's concerns and being "defensive"?
re:WK
I would first like to look at the vote which first bought suspicion onto WK:
zeddicus points out the double standard of the vote
wk replies "I wasn't serious & if you really need an explanation the vote stood out more."
(ok @wk to say it wasn't serious then if you realy need an exlanation is not a great way of saying things, I believe you (we all) knew saying I wasn't serious wasn't going to hold up but to add "if you realy need an explanation" that is just going to look bad as if you fabricated the explanation or you lied about not being serious)
with that said I dont find it surprising that zeddicus then attacks the explanation given by wk
I also note the explanation (more interesting than the vote)
QF is dissmisive of this and Talitha is also mostly dissmisive
After two players and 3 post focusing on the vote/reasons wk replies in post 66
(I can see this post as defensive but I like the fact that wk can see the reason he attracted suspicion, and I also think that wk has a tendency to overjustify (note post52) as well which can also be interpreted defensive.)winkkirby wrote:I figured that if I just said "I wasn't serious" he would've kept persisting about it, as it was already pretty obvious that it wasn't anything too serious. What happened was that I looked at mozsugg's vote and thought it was like maybe a 2/10 on my scum-o-meter, which I felt was good enough for a jokevote (I like to have some sort of miniscule reason, even if it's a dumb one.). Having made my decision, I scrolled down, not paying too much attention to PP's post as it wasn't as lengthy or stand-out-y as mogsuggz's (such a hard-to-spell name!) was. The post may seem contradictory because I provided two unrelative reasons in one post, and I do understand that, but I wanted to make it clear that not only is no one serious on the first page, but there was a slight reason for my vote as well. Basically, I defended myself with two different points. "What? Two different points? Scumtell! Deserves an FoS!" is a reaction that I fail to comprehend.
re: Wk & Defensiveness
Reading through WKs post I find him naturaly defensive (and overjustifying), again IMO more indicitive of style than alignment.
On the second page we have WK responding to QFs 4 reason/joke vote with
At the top of page 3 we havewinkkirby wrote:I'm in two of your minis?! What does that even mean? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? :O
This to me is overjustified and is already defensive "Sorry if it sounds like I'm defending her overmuch" before anyone had question it.wondkirby wrote:Hmm... I don't think it's such a big deal, personally. Sorry if it sounds like I'm defending her overmuch, but it's only on the second page. (I would agree if she had done it on the first.)
Both of these are early indications of Wks defensiveness as a part of her style.
So now after the above has occured we get
Cephrir(post 68) saying that that was defensive and votes:wk
zeddicus also sees this as defensive (and has other previous reasons for suspected scumminess) but already has his vote there
darkdude sees this possibility but also says that could be a town freak out
Cephrir mentions overreaction
QF is hesitant in seeing wk as defensive but does allude to it
Cephrir refers to wk post as overdefensiveness
QF makes another stronger reference to wks defensiveness
Now what I can deduce from this is that Cephrir was the 1st to call wk defensive and also to mention it the most, others saw this also but were less aggressive.....
As I have already stated that wk gave tells very early in the game of being defensive I see this move of Cephrir as a scum oppertune move; that coupled with the fact that this seems to be his only real premise to think wk scum as he made no comments on the double standard of wks vote and the contradictory nature of his explanation.
Ok so to finish I have less suspicion on both QF and WK and only more on Cephrir
Sorry for such a long post but I felt the need to clarify some things on the two most high profile people.
I also have things to say about others but will leave that for another post.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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ok now impresions of 2 more people, this sholud be a lot shorter as both haven't posted that much
darkdude
he seemed to be following others points and suspicions on things but on one occasion he decided to add to his post "this could be just a townie freak out" and decided to not vote...............
now I dont realy see this as too scummy at all. I would rather put it as cautious town and his other post back this up as well. In his posts so far he has picked up on others points mostly (but has addd a few of his own thoughts) and he has not posted a second vote, he has also not posted anything of great length or ferocity.
mozsuggs
seems very quick for action right from the get go a person of few words even fewer justifications (HA a balance to QF & WK perhaps) easily going to attract attention (do mini normals have jesters?) someone to certainly keep an eye on
IGMEOY:mozsuggs-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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I really felt the need to look at both QF and WK for myself as they had both attracted the most suspicion but people were also divided on their opinions about their scumminess & I was also personaly devided. I came to my own conclusion about each as both perhaps targeted for their style more so than their actions. Having such a long post was to show others evidence to support my opinion. But if that is too much for some then my main points were:
I see QFs long posts heavy quoting and justifications as more indicitive of her style and not necessasarily of her alignment. The above stated things does give the impression of a post of large size but thin content.
I will have to watch QF closely to work out style from alignment,
Reading through WKs post I find him naturaly defensive (and overjustifying), again IMO more indicitive of style than alignment.
Im trying to get reads/understanding of how different people play/post at this stage of the game. If I see this as contridictory to the suspicions cast on that player then I will say something.
This is how I read both of these players at this point in the game, it also gives me a better base to judge future actions from them.
AlsoI will ask again does a mini normal have a jester?
mozsuggs wrote:Shall we just kill someone?-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Well I think you said it was rather long or something so I thought I could pick out the main points to make it easier for others to get the gist of what I was trying to say. A Mcfiction version of the novel if you like. I am aware some find qfs length a slight issue and have made notes or boiled down points to make things easier.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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@darkdude Is this your 1st game here?
If I can count right you are only on 3 votes and it takes 7 to get a lynch, as Cephrir has said a vote does not necessasarily indicate someone wants you lynched but they want to get a reaction out of you or they find you suspicious,
To say they are baseless accusations because you dont agree with them is not a good idea unless they really are and in this case they do have reasons logic behind them.
If you are newb town I can see the reaction, (to someone putting accusations pressure & votes) of voting what appears to be a OMGUS as a newb tell more than anything else.
@Everyone
I think we all have a natural resistence to say yes your accusations were correct or that did look scummy but c'mon all players will be called scum or scummy for very valid reason from others and admiting on players points that do have good logic or saying it could be seen that way is by no means signing your own death warrent. You can do that and post a counter argument or point holes in the logic used to come to that conclusion but to simply flat out say things like
"your accusations are baseless", "I disagree", "you are wrong" etc. only leads to long silly debates and personal conflicts.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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...dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry
fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the
starry dynamo in the machinery of night,
@YvonneSeer you have only picked on darkdude thus far. Yes it is early in the game but given your sole focus on darkdude I would like to ask you for a scum rating for him of 1-10 (10 being dirty filthy scummy mafia)?
@zeddicus if you could do the same above that would be appreciated and also what are your thoughts on winkkirby now?-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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ok thanks zeddicus............
wow 7 is rather high for this early, I will agree that darkdude has drawn suspicion to himself but I'm of the more conservative opinion that darkdude is newb town....
(given you said you need two votes and did vote later) isnt this doing the same thing darkdude was originally deemed suspicious for......throwing suspicion on a wagon but not voting?zeddicus wrote:You pushed a wagon without adding your vote to it. Major FoS: darkdude I need two votes
and re mozsuggszeddicus wrote:eager for night?
unvote, vote:mozsuggs
again you seem guilty of your own accusations against others.zeddicus wrote:we need to lynch darkdude now.
You have cast four votes already two going with what was popular at the time (mozsuggs & darkdude).
The second vote against winkkirby you went with for awhile rather strongly but seemed to change tracks onto darkdude (who also became suspicious of windkirby)when the windkiby suspicion train lost its momentum and the darkdude one picked up speed.
To me this voting behaviour shows eagerness to get to a lynch more akin to scum play than what I would expect from town....add to this the pointed out hypocrisy
vote:zeddicus-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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C'mon guys it seems to me that all has happened so far is jump on the train (of suspicion) jump off the train. These trains have imo been for the most obvious/sketchy scum tells of which I dont have much faith in as an ultimately reliable guide to find scum.
Imo it is far easier for a scum to point out a townie using a scum tell to try and get a lynch than to use a good argument on the behaviour the motivations behind it, maybe im just a little bit disappointed with the way this game is going and the overuse of scum tells on this site as a way of trying to find scum.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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I think you still are in that position mozsuggs and as I see it, it is not viewed as a productive way to catch scum unless of course you have a divination system of casting faeces to figure out who is scum, then that position is totaly understandable.mozsuggs wrote:I feel like I'm walking around with my head up my arse, in a very dark room, just after someone has shouted out "He cant see a bloody thing".-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Nice tag moz, Im sorry if you find this game a bit slow people a bit mean and whatever else, my last post was a comment (rather witty imo and sadly no one noticed it) to try and spur you into some action and wow it worked a treat.
I think you still need to learn a lot about this game as you have made numerous mistakes weather you are town or scum, im not to sure at this stage what is more likely.
All this action yay. I have to go out now will post again later today.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Mozsuggs I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.
I think your biggest flaw in this game has been the I know im innocent and if I say it enough with enough conviction people might believe me. We have no way what so ever to know your innocent on day one but we can judge this on how you play, your actions, votes, accusations, what you say in your posts etc.
General mind degenaration of syphillis in its last stages seems to be more of a tell for yourself than anyone else. I think you may be far beyond treatment and at this stage your brian will slowly start losing function and you will become unaware of your surrondings what is happing to you and you will die. This is the syphillis virus eating holes in your brain.
My three possibilites for moz
1) Jester (suffering terminal syphillis)
2) Scum (suffering terminal syphillis)
3) Plain ole vanilla townie (suffering terminal syphillis)
My conclusion:
either this illness will terminate him for us or we do a mercy killing
My personal opinion is a mercy killing is the humane way to go
vote:Mozsuggs-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Guys I didn't realize that that was the hammer, I was having fun with moz, in the whole syphillis joke and was trying to get through to him and appeal to him on his own level and would have been interested in his response as I thought that was the L-1 vote. I expected to take some flak for this, it is my fault for not counting properly.
What do you mean by this, YvonneSeer was the one to first draw suspicion to you and stay with pressure on you and the only others to really have a go at you were zediccus and viking.darkdude wrote:The scum did a good job on framing me....-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Trying to find mafia in mozsuggs death is like trying to find sense in mozsuggs (short) life. I do believe that the mafia wouldn't have had to work hard for a lynch on moz, so they could have sat back and watched, but also given the nature of moz gameplay it would have been just as easy/safe to jump in on a lynch on him.
I find vikings comment a bit strange
Given that of those left not on the moz vote are only three: Pink Puppy, darkdude, Talitha, and you say you are not sure of darkdude do you have any good reason to be suspicious of PP or Talitha?vikingfan wrote:After seeing mozsuggs' alignment, I'm not sure about darkdude, especially since it seems that he may be framed by the mafia. It seems like, to me, the mafia were almost entirely sitting back and letting mozsuggs commit suicide (which is basically what he did).-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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@Arkonas
As I have said I didnt realize that that was the hammer vote, so If you are making a case out of me for hammering moz then I cant really defend myself better than what I have already said. I can understand being an easy target for this so I dont hold anyones votes against me, but it does sort of seem a bit easy "VoD put in the hammer said he didnt realize must be scum". I think a lot of people thought moz could be scum or at least deserved a vote for the way he was playing, mine was no different but happened to be the hammer vote (unbeknown to me at the time).-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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As I have already stated scummy play/scum tells dont work on their own and favour mafia being able to more easily lynch town. To me you have to look behind these actions and even pro town actions and look at the motivations/reasons for these from a scum point of view and/or a town point of view.
Also comments after the lynch of a townie like these:
andwinkkirby wrote:(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)
hold no more weight than my "I didnt realize that it was the hammer", they are done post event with the knowledge that moz is town, but in these cases niether of them were questioned about there involvment in mozs death and both were pressuring me for my part after I had already exlained my actions.Akonas wrote:But that was not the time. I, for one, didn't want to see him lynched at that point; I didn't have time to unvote beforehand.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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P P I dont think you understand my post properly:
I think using scum tells on their own makes lynching town easier for scum....
Ok you are approacing your conclusion with the belief that I was aware of the fact that I was lynching moz which sure you are entitled to do but if you view it under the belief that I was unaware then the not reading all of mozs post and being amused take on a different meaning.Pink Puppy wrote:I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.
It is getting kinda frustrating that all these conclusions are being done on the basis of me knowing I was hammering moz. If the first premise for the accusations are flawed then I can hardly argue with the conclusions.-
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darkdude I am not going to claim at 3 votes (hope I can count right now), I thought you might have realized that claiming early (e.g. moz) is not a good idea. You dont even have your vote on me and you want me to claim..........and you say you agree with PP who as I read it never said she wanted me to claim.
PP........I kinda get the feeling you are trying to pressure me into a long defensive post to give you more reason to push your wagon. I also have issues with the way in which you are saying things:Pink Puppy wrote:I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.
I will quote myself here for you PP wrote:
I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him.I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited.That attitude seems off to me.
Ok you are saying that I was happy to lynch someone not reading all there posts: correction I was not aware I was lynching him
You also say you feel the same way regardless of if it was the L-1 vote or the lynch vote: If you feel the same way regardless try posing a question to me about my post from the L-1 perspective
Again you are insinuating I knew I was lynching, I have posted (my first post after moz's death about my actions if there is anything you find specificly suspicious then I am happy to answer it.Pink Puppy wrote:But I just siezed on VoD because because of how he didn't read all of moz's posts and was acting too jokeyduring a lynch
I am not saying that I wouldn't have acted this way if I knew it was the lynch vote, I am saying read it in the context I thought it was posted in, aPink Puppy wrote:It's just that nothing he has said has made me feel any better about him. And he's not really addressing my point that he didn't read moz's posts, or that he seemed to have a joking attitude. He's only saying that he wouldn't have acted that way if he had known it was a lynch, and he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.
L-1 vote.
I know this is tricky as there is no proof to know I was aware or unaware of placing the hammer vote: all I can do is ask you to view it in each case and decide personaly which you believe, saying I don't know or don't care either way is fine but attacking me from a perspective of me knowing it was (a lynch vote) indicates you have already decided.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Since I can't expect anyone to do it for me I will have to do it myself:
Here is my post in the way I intended it to be seen as a L-1 vote
Thats as best a defence as I can give on the whole issue,vampireofdusseldorf wrote:Mozsuggs I dont feel like reading through all your recent posts just yet, I may go back to look over them for amusment at some stage.
I'm telling moz I do find his play funny but excessive
I think your biggest flaw in this game has been the I know im innocent and if I say it enough with enough conviction people might believe me. We have no way what so ever to know your innocent on day one but we can judge this on how you play, your actions, votes, accusations, what you say in your posts etc.
I'm pointing out to moz how to convice us of his alignment other than using the whole Im town It's true defence
General mind degenaration of syphillis in its last stages seems to be more of a tell for yourself than anyone else. I think you may be far beyond treatment and at this stage your brian will slowly start losing function and you will become unaware of your surrondings what is happing to you and you will die. This is the syphillis virus eating holes in your brain.
an attempt at a joke but with the tone of it seeming his demise was eminant again to provoke a reaction
My three possibilites for moz
1) Jester (suffering terminal syphillis)
2) Scum (suffering terminal syphillis)
3) Plain ole vanilla townie (suffering terminal syphillis)
im not sure of either and am continuing on the joke by including the jester possiblilty
My conclusion:
either this illness will terminate him for us or we do a mercy killing
My personal opinion is a mercy killing is the humane way to go
vote:Mozsuggs
I'm placing the L-1 vote in the same already started joke manner for mozs benifit and was interested to see how he took it...would he collapse his defense, admit to being scum, use my points to form a better defence
If you guys still have any questions about this post in particular that you feel have not been answered than shoot as I'm happy to answer them, as I find most of the suspicion that has been generated against me has come from speculation as to my motives.-
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@Akonas and everyone yes I could have said moz deserved it as that is what a few others I'm sure thought, in fact it might have been easier to argue that, but alas I told the truth, that I messed up and have no way to prove that to anyone.
As for running him up I didn't think it too bad to put him at L-1 considering his previous behaviour, and I was genuinely wishing for a response from him, for me to decide if I thought him town or scum.-
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QF I think dark dude is very far off from a lynch with one vote while im sitting on L-2, talking about dd in that way is just plain wierd, but as it doesn't hurt to ask what others think of someone:QuantumFruit wrote:Darkdude's kind of playing this like a newbie, so I don't know what to make of it. I mean, pushing someone for a claim so early is just plain strange. Then, he decides to vote for VoD as soon as he's told to (so as to be compliant with what seems to be the general consensus) and gain favor and make sure not to look scummy. He's being a little too much of a sycophant there for my taste - to me, a bit of a scum-tell. Because other behaviors on his part are so newbish, though, I don't know what to make of it right now. Any insights, people? I'm just afraid of lynching another newb-town behaving as scum.
I see darkdude as very new, following other peoples suspicions, asking for a claim, conforming to what is acceptable (town) behaviour and placing suspicion on people while sitting back.
Now the biggest scum move I believe noteworth is:
Following other peoples suspicions: doing this to blend in not raise to much suspicion and from my point of view to not have to build a case on your own which is harder to do as scum (especialy new scum) than town.
All the other behaviours I think are just as much newb town tells as scum ones.-
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@Y'all
I have admited that I didn't realize that I had placed the hammer vote and I also relize that this is wifom, nobody has blatantly come out and said I believe he didn't realize or I believe he knew he was hammering...but there has been a lot of insinuations to the later......windkirby wrote:The sudden hammer without a lot of posting beforehand just seems like eager mafiaman who can't say no to finally being able to get out his gun.darkdude wrote:I find VoD just slightly suspicious, again for using jokes for the deciding vote.
So @ those quoted above are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER! and If you have other reasons/accusations I would like to know so if I havent already explained/defended myself I can do that.Pink Puppy wrote:I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.
The other two main reasons I have picked up on for my scumminess are both from the moz vote post:
the joke nature of it and the comment "I don't feel like reading all of your recent posts yet".
The joke nature of the posts was directed specificly at moz who as it was plainly obvious he liked to joke around, I also thought others might have a sense of humour (alas my timing was off)
I had skimmed over the post before making mine and that comment was to try and tell moz he was posting too much to his detriment.
So I get the feeling it is these two points taken in the context of a hammer vote that are the reasons for me being voted, and that those voting for me feel happy to run me up to a claim and possible lynch for this.
I think this has all moved way too fast and nobody else has even been seriously questioned. If these are the reasons mentioned above for pushing me on a wagon ride towards lynching then I am inclined to believe that this dubious wagon has some scum wheels on it.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Akonas wrote:"it was an accident" doesn't hold much weight either. It's not much of an explanation, and it doesn't take my suspicion off.
I have always claimed I thought it was the L-1 vote (a terrible mistake and I really dont know why I thought that but we all have mental lapses) and I knew it was going to be hard to convince anyone of this but I believed it better to tell the truth about the situation and try my best to defend it than to make up a more convicing defense.QuantumFruit wrote:@Akonas: Well, did you want him (VoD) to lie?
I dont agree with that as a blanket statement: I think both scum and town have equal reason to be cautious especialy around lynch time: scum so as to try and avoid suspicion and town so as to be confident they have got scum.windkirby wrote:The reason my vote is on you because even if it was a mistake as you said, scum is much more likely to be so irresponsible.
And you didn't answer my question:
So I feel my votees are playing it from both sides:thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:are you voting for me because you belive I was aware of putting the hammer on moz and made up the "I didn't realize it was the hammer" as a defence, PLEASE ANSWER!
He might have knowingly hammered and then used the I didn't know as the defense
If he didnt know then it shows he was irresponsible (scum)
Now I see this as unfair, as you can use both contradictory eplanations to throw suspicion on me while refraining from personaly commenting on which one you are more inclined to believe.
No I dont mind looking at it from both perspectives but to point to "evidence" of scummines from both pov's to form a collective body of "evidence" is not legit at all.
That is why I ask those voting me what do you personaly believe.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Not sure I get this do you mean scum wouldn't get sloppy?QuantumFruit wrote:@VoD: I think scum would be responsible with that sort of thing in fear of being called out on it. Scum would get sloppy.
Thank you for at least trying to answer my question, but you are still using the double contradictory situation aproach to judge me as scum, basicly judging me as scum regardless of if I knew or not, but saying you are more inclined to believe the view I knew.windkirby wrote:VoD, I do not believe one way or the other, but I am more inclined to believe that you did not know you were hammering. However, I still think that it's a pretty scummy thing to do to not even check enough to know you're hammering.
The only fair way for me to argue with this is to defend myself from both pov's, of which I have not as that is just plain stupid and would incriminate myself further, yet this is what I face from the prosecution, they have the ability to stay in the middle ground not comiting to either opinion and presenting both cases as suspicious.
I have already presented the best defence I could and have answered all questions/suspicions people have had........now we are just going over the same ground with no real headway. Scum are escaping suspicion with the current attention on this matter and to try and get others to widen their eyes to other people:vote:Pink Puppy
(I do have good reason for this and it is not an omgus vote but I have a few things to do so I will post more later)-
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@darkdude I dont know what you are expecting from a claim but your pressure for one seems a little strange especialy now I'm at 3 votes, so I will try and outline what would happen in a claim:
I claim vanila townie: this is as good as a no claim as it holds no wieght,
I claim a town power role: this is a more tricky situation, if I do have a power role I am going to be targeted for a nk (especialy wothout a doc), if I do not have a power role I could be doing one of two things, as town I could be covering for the person who does have this power role and setting myself up for a nk as a vanila townie or I could be scum claiming a power role to try and get a counter claim from the real role holder so to give my scum partners a good nk choice.
And lastly the wildcard option is to claim scum: this could be done at a very inopertune time for a joke, (I'm not sure of cases where this has happened and context) but this is very unlikely.
I dont think I have missed something but if others no of any other type of claim.....-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Is Pink Puppy scum 'V'''''V'
I believe this is what Pink Puppy is doing along with a few others "trying to have it both ways". As I have explained.Pink Puppy wrote:About the nuances....I generally feel that "trying to have it both ways" is scummy, because it signals a person who is molding their suspicions to fit whatever person they want to target. Like they are picking the target first, and worrying about reasons later. Which is what a townie would never do.
First accusations against me by anyone were done by PP and were about putting the hammer on in a joke fashion and with a comment about not reading mozs posts.
I explained that I thought it the L-1 vote
This is left to be discussed by others which leads to a few more votes
Then
You dont mind I hammered a townie or voted for him but you take issue at the nature of the post (jokey) and (your interpretation of) one line in it. Again you are still insinuating I knew I was hammering by "you were happy to lynch"Pink Puppy wrote:I do agree context is important though too. I don't so much mind that you put the hammer on mozsuggs... or even that you voted him. I only mind that you were happy to lynch someone without reading all their posts, and that you sounded amused/excited. That attitude seems off to me.
Now we have a change with ok if it was accidental I will attack you from this perspective. I had already said I thought it was the L-1 vote so I was obviously aware moz was close to a lynch but I had misscounted while skimming over the posts before making mine.Pink Puppy wrote:Even if you didn't know you were hammering, you HAD to know that a lot of people were voting mozsuggs and he was getting close. That might be the time to like... CHECK to see how many votes the guy has on him.
Now it doesnt matter which is more likely as I'm branded scum either way, either I did know and hammered or I thought it was the L-1,Pink Puppy wrote:I still feel the same way, whether is was the lyncher or the L-1, whether you knew it was or not.both of these statements can't be true; but esentialy it doesn't matter either way because both can be used to make a case against me and combined they make an even bigger case.Is this not having it both ways.
I feel as if you picked me for the hammer vote and then when the info of me thinking it a L-1 vote came to light and you could not ignore this as a possibility, you claim this is scummy too and then after I defended this It becomes oh well the motivations behind the post are not important both are scummy.
Yes you can't "know" but you can make an informed decision based on observations (as others have done) as to what is more likely but as I see it you wish to say I can't know so you can throw suspicion from both points of view.Pink Puppy wrote:he didn't realize his vote was the hammer. And that argument is WIFOM because I can't ever know his motivation.
And a foot note: Given the length and weight of suspicion on myself and the amount of content I have posted in my defence has anything else come to light to add to anyones suspicion, backtracking, contradictions, etc any holy scum tells..........or is this wagon solely beinging oiled on a post done day one?-
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This has been my only defence and yes it sucks and it is true.........one mistake made and all this attention. I think it is fair for me to try and at least convince people that it was a genuine mistake....and if I fail at this I believe I have not done anything else scummy enough since then to merit all this attention, but it looks like at least some people are seeing this and looking at other people too.Pink Puppy wrote:But I do think it really sucks for both of us if you really did just make a mistake and not realize how many votes were on Mozsuggs, and just tried to be funny at an inopportune time. I mean if that's true, it's basically my worst case scenario that I think is low on my scale of probability.
And lastly I do find PP's unshakable belief In my scuminess rather off putting but I will try and not let that distract me too much. I guess someone has to be picked for day two's first wagon and I was an obvious choice.-
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@windkirby
C'mon you can't believe your vote is your only weapon, your only weapon is your brain behind the vote and all other actions you take during the game.
@darkdude If it really was an accident what do you think pushing for more info is going to do? I have been pushed as hard as anyone is able to and as far as I have seen it has gone nowhere so pushing me to claim seems to be a last effort to try and make this suspicion go anywhere. Perhaps leaving this on the backburner as others have done and looking at other people while still keeping an eye on me might be a better choice.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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@Darkdude
I can't understnd how you think a claim will help. It has been outlined twice now what the likely results or info we will get from a claim would be.
Claim vanila town=no claim/nothing gained
Claim power role=no lynch but a nk on me
or=a counter claim with a lynch on me and a nk on the counterclaim
So to get me to claim would either: a)change nothing or
b)give scum a power role to nk
I can only see your above post making sense if you are happy to take the risk of losing another power role.
Best case scenario would be a vanila town claim but this changes nothing
Middle case scenario I am scum I claim power role and a counter claim is made I am lynched and mafia nk the counterclaimer
Worst case scenario I am a town power role and someone else is lynched and I get nked
Now I have gone and checked things throughly and I see dd is on 4 votes, if I were to vote for dd that would be L-1 (right?), So I would like to give dd some time to explain his actions further before putting him there.
So the next best thing to a voteBigFoS:darkdude-
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@darkdude
I had a chace to put an L-1 vote on you that probably would have caused an even greater freak out but I wished to see you expand on your defence first as I know you are new here, you have made some more rather bad plays and you have to be more sorted in your posts and aware of these things.
I agree with you in this:
I have not even completed a full game on this site yet but what has helped me to understand this "community culture" is reading through the forums or the wiki. Try reading through some medium sized games and you will get an idea of how this is played.darkdude wrote:but my current situation is the result of some accumulation of inexperience in terms of the community culture here in general.
A good defense when under pressure is to defend yourself from the suspicions people are using to judge you as scum and also try and still look for scum under this pressure. This is a very hard act to balance and takes much practice.
Ok some points others have not picked up on.
Darddude what sort of attack would try and make any scum into town?darkdude wrote:More like "Your attack can make any town into scum" but whatever.
Also statements like "but whatever" following a bold statement kinda undermine what you are saying, if you believe in what you are saying then there is no need for such, and if you dont believe in what you are saying there is no need to say it.
Well you found people suspicious on day one and me on day two but now you say you fail to see suspicious people...look carefuly over day one and day two I'm sure you can find something, and to say sorry can't help town is very bad. I can uderstand this untill your own mess has cleared but try and balance this.darkdude wrote:It must be the thought of self defense overwhelming my other thoughts, because I fail to see other suspicious people. So sorry can't help town there, until my own mess is cleared. One detail I do see though - Akona's words sound less likely to come from scum than the others.
And lastly you say about Akonas you think he is not very scummy at all compared to others so you obviously think of some "others" as scum or using scummy words, would you let me know if this is sort of what you ment?-
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darkdude do you see now why pushing for a claim prematurely is a bad idea, unless someone is at L-1 or looking very certain for a lynch then there is no need for a claim.
I also a bit baffled by three different peoples comments about roles darkdude mentioning mansons & cop vikingfan mentioning vig and ciepher mentioning cop.
Ive also noted a couple of role related words mentioned by a couple of people, darkdude said I won't try to investigate myself and wk said my vote is my only weapon.
No as I have said earlier I am still new and only know certain aspects of the game so far, I have heard of role fishing but have not been able to find a good definition of it or how it is done/how it works so If someone could eplain this to me more fully that would be great.
I take the role related words from dd and wk to mean respectively I'm trying to say I'm cop and I'm trying to say I'm town, now I can understand wks rather blatant attempt to say I'm town (but it means mostly nothing but seems odd to use role related ideas in a post), I'm really not sure about what darkdude ment by this but I find it very odd.-
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Yeah I ment you sory, well I can understand not wanting to point out power role tells but I find it strange a power role holder would put a tell in their posts or game style, obviously you would not want to give scum a chance to detect this. That is why I found dd's mention of investigate kinda wierd, as in I didnt understand why he would use that word. But I dont see any harm at putting a town tell in your post as scum already know that person to be town (presumably unless 2 scum groups or a sk).-
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Well it has occured to me that scum can play this put town power role tells in their post if they are setting them selves up for a possible claim, I see that as more likely that a town power role putting them in, also yes talithas lack of decent sized posts does bother me but some of us do have busy lives so I 'm not saying this is suspicious yet.....but if it is an ongoing thing then is very noteworthy, and zeddicus has also been very quiet this game just went back and noted the most activity he has done was on the day moz was lynched......-
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Haha obviously I'm incompetant at hammering Moz is back. But seriously moz you can't post in a game you have been killed in.
Well I can see this as ok in theory in practical usage it doesn't exactly help town win, if a townie does something they know might appear scummy then the are generaly going to be questioned over it and firstly this detracts from focusing on possible real scum and second endangers a townie for a lynch. The only time I would see this of use would be if the pay out was greater than the bet.Akonas wrote:Townies don't need to worry about being seen as scum.
Well yes of course, I am not subscribing to Akonas above idea. But also I am being gentler with darkdude in terms of pressure, in this situation I didn't think more pressure would help and giving some advice on how to play here was good for him and us. Anyone can be lynched for being new and not understanding certain things about the "comunity culture" but if they understand these things and still continue to do wierd scummy things then I think these actions hold more wieght than previously.QuantumFruit wrote:Are you afraid of looking more suspicious for similar behavior?
I dont think I uderstand the bit about him not playing since being bandwagoned, I don't think he has been bandwagoned this game. And I dont get your bit about playing the victim either zeddicus has made one post day two and basicly agreed with different peoples points and said was torn between voting me and dd (the two most suspicious people). The post above post needs some clarification.Pink Puppy wrote:Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.
The thing I was interested in while being under suspcion was that I had become suspicious of my accusors. Now this I'm sure is natural if you are town and find you accusors arguments and constant pressure rather wierd behaviour or in my case I felt the attention that was being paid to me was too much and the "evidence" of my scumminess was rather light, then how do you try and hunt scum in that person without it apearing as an OMGUS kinda thing.-
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@darkdude on day one I think yvonnes behaviour was an indication of a power role, she only had one suspect and held to that suspect all day one = town power role. Well thats what the comunity says anyways, but you probably didn't know this.
As a side note for my learning benifit and perhaps others: I thought this was more an indication of a cop tell and I can understand it as thus as it is obvious and if there is a doctor they can hopefuly pick it up and know who to protect, but a doc doing this that is very strange?-
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Ah you ment darkdude in your post not zeddicus. Ok that explains things.Pink Puppy wrote:Your point about zeddicus is good. The thing that is interesting about him is how he has sort of stopped playing the game since being bandwagoned. He isn't trying to find scum anymore. He's just playing victim. And I have to admit, VoD, you did not do that when you were under pressure.
I see this as the "whack a mole" game if a scum tell pops up you whack it with your hammer, but if they stop poping up you stick your arm down the hole and try and pull them out.winkkirby wrote:Rest assured I'm keeping tabs on this game. If scumtells continue to hide I'll probably contemplate a switch to the offensive.
I haven't seen too much scuminess from the very active players (bar darkdude) windkirby, Pink Puppy, QuantumFruit and Cephrir so I would be inclined to believe that scum are either hiding in their holes or doing a good job at being active and avoiding suspicion.-
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...Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Bussing as I belive it is scum voting his partner to the point of a lynch, (throwing him under the wheels of a bus) so that they look a lot more town.
So what has happened day two.......I get picked on for being the hammer and darkdude draws suspicion for multiple reasons (most newb tells) and still continues to do the same things he has already done that have drawn suspicion to himself.
We talk about claiming, power role tells, and moles. Talitha says she will post but never does. Zeddicus posts once then goes on springbreak to mexico where the...(well I will leave that up to your imagination). Moz drops back in to say hello and is quickly put back to death. I start ranting as this helps me get a grip of things....................ok done.
Now if I look back on the vote count for moz I am inclined to believe at least one or two scum were in on the vote, and the most inconspicuous places to be are in the middle block 3-5. So we have QuantumFruit, windkirby, zeddicus, as I've said I'm not getting anything too scummy from QF and wk so I will focus on zeddicus pre moz lynch as he has only made one post day two of which I have comented on.
Also just noted windkirby you voted for moz with no real explanation but said if anyone except moz objected you would explain.
Given you said very soon after the lynch:
Should I take this post event explanation as the truth (sort of like how you take my post event explanation as untruth).winkkirby wrote:(I would here like to state that I was adding in my vote in hopes of the newb's confessional collapse.)
Now back to zeddicus:
I already made a case against him day one post 164, but this was never comented on. I think this still stands as zed joined the moz wagon and on day two his listed suspicions were also with the two popularist movements (wagons) at that time. Also he added his suspicion to both but didn't vote. Again something he used aginst darkdude day one.-
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Can I have the last word...........seeing as I am the thing in question.
What I see QF has picked up on is worth thinking about.
If I was scum I would have two choices in defence
1. Say it was an accident
2. Defend myself on a concious hammer vote
Likewise I have the same two choices as town
Now this is 4 different possible approaches to this; technically only two but with different motivations behind each.
Given I only have used one defence
not knowing it to be hammer, now motivations behind this (others feel free to comment on this as I can not do this objectivly)
as scum: I guess a WIFOM thing with no way to disprove this
as town: Well honesty I guess would be the biggest thing again hard to prove but this would work not in favour of town
And also it might pay to look at motivations for using/or not the alternative defence (again as above comment if you wish)
as scum: more effort needed to go into a defence on the concious hammer grounds but not that much more as mozs play would help. possibility of a more convincing defence.
as town: given if this was not the case it would be a lot harder to sustain this defence especialy when under pressure. possibility of a more convincing defence.
This is so strange I am the only one going deeply into this issue, in as much an open and objective way I can. This is not another defence post as I have already done that to death. More it is trying to give others some ways of looking at things to come to a reasonable feeling about the issue using logic and reason.-
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Talitha well that isn't exactly what I had hoped for but at least it is something, I have already outlined my thoughts on zed day one and today If you fail to find them I am not going to provide them just for you.
{quote="Talitha"]We can go over all the possibilities until we're blue in the face, but I think we'll only know for sure after the game is over.[/quote]
I'm just trying to provide people with as much information so they can judge my actions for them selves, saying you can only know after the game or after a lynch is lazy play something you acused zed of. Start thinking behind these things you can not know as this is what this game is about.
Roar.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Re post 319:
This still stands and I dont like how PP convicted me of being scum, also part of the reason to vote her was to test how strong her conviction of my scuminess was, (was it that strong she would stick to it to the point of apearing scummy herself and/or ignore all other people). From then on her horizons broadened and she said things that made me less suspicious of her. Mod said unvoting was optional so I saw no need to do it.
If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.
Ok I know you have a busy life at present and three little monsters (kids) must take a lot of time and energy to handle, sorry I seemed harsh but isn't mafia a game where as town you don't know and have to look at actions post votes and find reasons motivations behind these things. I find it kinda wierd I seemed to be the only one doing this about my action. Maybe I have got this wrong but relying on the scum tell bible seems like playing the game paint by numbers with only one colour, black.-
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QF you are right about being hard on talitha but I have not built a case against her nor used her absence from the game as any reason to try and throw suspicion on her. When talitha asked me to explain why I was voting zed when I believed all the reasons/explanations for that had been outlined I got a little angry. The point I am finding issue with is not about lurking but about beeing able to comit enough time to play a game. I am also being lienient with talitha as she has explained her busy life. But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.-
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I guess this is really a point for discusion outside of this game, I'm not saying this is what talitha is doing and I am pleased she has contributed more over the last few days. But I had cause to worry over day one and the start of day two.thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:But if players are ok about people posting very little because they have busy lives this then gives rise to acceptance of limited posting/lurking. How do you tell each apart, and if beeing busy is an acceptable excuse for a whole game then that becomes a credible lurking defence.
If you can find me directly accuse Talitha of being scum please quote it for me, this is the second time you have accused me of accusing someone which as I see I have not done. If you feel this was indirect then still please provide a quote or something.QuantumFruit wrote:and you guys are telling her that she's lurking and accusing her of being scum.
Meow.-
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Ah that quote was in refrence to zeddicus and if viewed in its contex properly,
it is hard to see it being directed towards talitha. It looks as if you deliberately pulled that out to fit you case as the second part of that sentance explains who this is in reference too.thevampireofdussledorf wrote:If someone chooses to be away with out notifying or is forced away from a game I shouldn't just ignore them till they come back if I find them scummy, and looking back over day one and the moz votes I found it a worthy case to put forward.
I doubt he will be lynched while not here and all points are outlined for him to answer when he comes back. Given this also helps people widen there sights to more than just me and dd.
And your previous accusation post 416
Also if you could illustrate where I tried to build a case against her when she wasn't even here that would helpful.QuantumFruit wrote:Darkdude, VoD, why are you guys being so damn hard on Talitha? It just doesn't make sense to me and I find it an itsy bit suspicious. It's like she's an easy target and she'll be gone for a while so then you can build a case against her when she can't argue back. Also the "lurking" - someone's busy so they're DUN DUN DUN "lurking" and they're SCUM. (Obviously I'm being intentionally absurd at this point - it's 1:30 AM.) But yeah, "lurking" is an easy excuse to accuse someone with and I'm just not buying it.
Your reaction to this talitha thing seems to me to be very protective and emotional not logical at all.-
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So whats next a group hug before the lynching.
All is fine but if an accusation against me is done inacuratey by blinding emotion I will point it out. And QF I can understand your wanting everyone to have an enjoyable game but I think we are all (mostly) grown up and can take a few knocks. IMO ths game has been rather sanitized (bar moz) and friendly comapared to others. I belive the mod has guidelies on what is acceptable behaviour in the game and I expect players to agree to these. Expecting players
to conform to your standards of behaviour/decency/kindness might be a bit too much to ask.
Anyways on a more game related note:Mod: can you tell us of zeddicus status.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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Well thanks windkirby (note I never said wankkirby) I must have confused your gender with someone else.
A player analysis is a very good thing to do as it shows your feelings/thought to everyone in the game and gives others something to look at if they have become narrow minded.
Now my last comment on Talitha and the mean roaring nasty person (me)...
Yeah that was pretty much it and It was intended to come across as harsh, I was concerned that talitha didn't have the time and/or concentration to be able to particapate well in this game (at that stage) but from her recent post I am more satisfied. If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr.QuantumFruit wrote:It's basically saying "your analysis sucks" and "stop being lazy rawr." And then he actually said "Roar." in the same post.
Now I'm in a bit of a bind about where to go from here also, there has been a lot of talk but no real direct scum hunting, but this is not all bad as any discussion is better than none. My top suspect is about to be replaced tomorrow which will pose a very annoying situation for me, as a replacement can hardly answer for the persons actions he is replacing.
I remember doing rather indepth player analysis of a few players day one (some thought it too long) and might be able to come up with some thoughts on players I have not yet looked at in the mean time.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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So those I have not piad due attention to:
Cephrir: His early game made me suspicious, agressive and keen to jump on minor things but I can see this was more to test people than to form bandwagons. He has been active day two but has not given too much to the game (scum huntingwise), but we have been talking a lot about certain issues role claiming, my hammer vote and meaness so active scum hunting has kinda been a little neglected. I am interested to hear more fully your thoughts about who you think is scum.
Talitha: Again someone I was weary about day one. She went five days without posting and her cases against people and votes seemed to be rather brief without much behind them, also the I will post more soon kinda promise didn't sit well with me. I didn't wish to see this trend continue day two as it would make it hard to get a read on her. I tried with asking for a prod (bovine rump) and a roar to get more from her. My day one suspicions have been mostly quenched with her posting over the last few days.
vikingfan:he may be a little light on the posting side but nothing he has said or done has made me that suspicious of him, he seems to me to be playing like a happy little townie.
Akonas: very difficult to get a read on him for me, he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book. So why not pick him as town........well that is what my head says but something in my guts tells me to not be too hasty in this judgement. So I'm left with either model townie or model townie front with a scummy secret.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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With viking vs talitha it was more a tone sort of thing as I explainded above.
Re: Akonas
Yeah very hard but I guess it is that nagging sort of doubt in the back of your mind the he is too good at town and doesn't let anything slip, makes me want to think of him at town but also to keep a close eye on him.
Also I am genderless and I kinda like it that way.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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You dont have to be brilliant to be a good townie and as I have stated my view and it was not so good but too good. but here is my view and also somewhere at the top of the page
Someone who looks to be doing very well at scum hunting and not appearing scummy. Sort of similar to viking in hasn't posted much but hasn't done anything that scummy looking.thevampireofdusseldorf wrote:he is very good at picking up on peoples points that lack logic and he is very quick to point out something he sees as scummy. Another thing is that he has a like of asking many questions of others. Now this looks like a rather active scum hunter using many tricks in the book-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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I agree the case is weak and Akonas simple comment I never liked him and Talitha has a good scumdar seem all the more suspicious at the moment.
Wierd I say he hasn't done anything scummy and then he does not sure but Akonas It might help if you explain things a little more than just giving statements.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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I believe zeddicus is by far more suspicious than viking at this stage. Your cases uses only a few posts on day one to try and say he is scum. And the first argument of one of his quotes being something a smart scum would say to look town is just as likely as something a smart town would say to look town.
My case on zeddicus goes not on quotes of his posts which are easy to take out of context warp and be manipulated but on his behaviour all game, the bandwagons he was on (almost all of them) the speed which he changed his votes, his biggest contribution being while the moz wagon was happening.
Now as for you Akonas
An attempt at humor (with the animal noises) yet agian not that obvious to some.Akonas wrote:It was mainly just "If a roar gets someone to be more active in the game then I will roar, I might also meow and sometimes purr", which seems to me to suggest that you're trying to suck up... I'm not sure exactly. Just with the whole Talitha thing you're kind of going back and saying "no, I wasn't that mean" in response to QF's complaining about it.
In post 410 page 17 I said sorry for being harsh to Talitha. In post 417 same page I told QF she was right about me being harsh and explained my reason for this as me being worried about her "beeing able to comit enough time to play a game".
As far as I can see from my post I never claimed I was not that mean, what I was was surprised by QFs reaction to it and what I did respond to was QFs allegations that I was calling talitha scum and building a case against her.-
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thevampireofdusseldorf Goon
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