Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Wisdom]

Hai, currently reading

[Wisdom]

I'm up to page 18. So far my top picks for scum are goodmorning and Peabody. I also didn't like Mala at first but the tone of her posts when pushed by BBT reminded me a lot of how she acts when I wrongly tunnel on her and generally felt genuine, so I changed my mind. I got town vibes off Shinobi early on but then his posting dropped so I don't know about him right now. Zebulin looked more like newbscum to me than newbtown, but the replace out confused me, so I'll see what his replacement will look like. Good questioning from Huntress made me think she should be town, but she has not been involved as much as I'd like. hephaestus and uctriton have yet to post up to this point. Pretty sure you and BBT are town.

Aand on to page 19.

[Wisdom]

Sorry you're Scum and I have to get you lynched Wisdom

Interesting, I'd expect you to try and read me to confirm your read since you know me and I recall you saying you can read me pretty well.

You don't seem interested in that.

[Wisdom]

Up to page 27.

Liking Huntress more after reading more of her.

Liked Shinobi's attempt to act as a peacemaker between BBT and Mala in 583. This sort of thing shows town most of the time.

Changed my mind about the Zebulin slot. Liking davesaz a lot.

Not quite sure about uctriton, but he slighly leans towards town.

hephaestus is most likely scum.

My other reads remain the same.

goodmorning/Peabody/hephaestus is my first guess at a scumteam.

--

Pausing for a while as I have to go, will continue reading soon.

[Wisdom]

Look, Sonic was Scum. I'm pretty sure of that. I can read you once you post a little more but I think I know what it's going to be.

Well, you're wrong. So the only thing setting up a tunnel on me does is making me think I've been right in scumreading you.

[Wisdom]

I don't think the VCs explain why you are not interested in reading me. No matter how sure you might be about MS, I am not MS. And you are able to read me, according to you. So why declare I'm scum instead of trying to do that?

[Wisdom]

Up to the end of D1.

I've been feeling somewhat better about both goodmorning and hephaestus. goodmorning had some posts that reminded me of town-her, while hephaestus's tone in his posts near the end of the day sounded more like town who's been apathetic than lurking scum.

Peabody's behavior around the deadline, on the other hand, makes me more sure he's scum. Robotically talking about what a no-lynch does, calling both wagons town when it was inevitable one of them is getting lynched, setting up future targets to push.

I felt uctriton vs Shinobi came somewhat out of nowhere. Anyhow, I thought Shinobi is definitely town from it, while uctriton felt more like he was interested in making Shinobi look bad than figuring him out. I haven't liked any of uctriton's posts since that point.

Josh has lost some of the towncred he had in my eyes. Early game he felt like a town leader, correcting incorrect reads that seemed out of place or town on town, trying to have the town work together. Or that's how I saw it anyway. But as time passed I felt he completely stopped doing any of that and only came back sometimes to argue with Mala about petty things. I'm not as sure about him being town as I was earlier.

I feel even better about BBT after seeing his attempts to get the lynches he'd like as deadline approaches. He reminds me a lot of myself.

Mala trying to protect goodmorning because she thinks she got a read on her looks like town-Mala.

dave and Huntress still look town enough.

[Wisdom]

I said I wouldn't find a Scum result unexpected.

No, you said I'm scum and I'm getting lynched. That doesn't sound like you'd be happy to read me. That sounds like you've pre-determined what I am and don't care to explore it further.

[Wisdom]

Didn't the fast wagon clear GM?

I saw this a lot of times, and it really has to stop.

A fast wagon does not "clear" anyone. The speed of a wagon is not alignment indicative. The only way this can be argued is if most of the people joining said wagon give weak reasons and it looks like the wagon is scum-driven. But solely the speed, means zero. There have been lots of cases where town quickly piled up votes on scum and I've even seen scum getting quicklynched.

So really, stop using that argument. goodmorning does in fact look more town in later D1, but due to her posts. The wagon has nothing to do with it.

[Wisdom]

nopointinactingup: Scripten, Metal Sonic, Huntress, Malakittens, davesaz, Peabody, ucitron00

Here's how I'm reading the wagon;

Conf. Town, leaning town, leaning town, leaning town, scum, town, null.

Why town on Peabody?

[Wisdom]

What I don't get is why nobody has bothered to look at who Scripten would be dangerous to. Or if you're looking, nobody is saying anything about it.

This reads as nonsense, and counter productive. Why should we be looking at a dead townie, and exactly how dangerous is he?

Scum take into account what reads people have. If someone has a close enough guess about the scumteam, and looks like they'll be able to convince others to vote with them, it's a good idea to kill them.

So yeah, who Scriten would be dangerous too is a good think to be researched.

[Wisdom]

My read on Pea has changed. You will see it in my latest reads-list.

Okay, why has it changed then? I don't recall you saying anything about him recently.

[Wisdom]

I can't say much to this except I was frustrated the person I wanted to be lynched didn't even have a wagon on him. There was a real threat that there was going to be a no-lynch, and after playing a horribly frustrating game not long ago, I'm a little more paranoid about this happening. I felt uneasy about BBT's request to vote GM without question, so I didn't. Yes, I was being rebellious.

The problem is, it didn't feel at all like you were being rebellious. I didn't get the feeling you cared in the slightest about who is going to be lynched. Nor did I get the feeling you particularly cared about the danger of a no-lynch (which didn't really look like a possibility anyway, by the looks of it. Everyone and their cat had a scumread on npiau or were at least content with lynching him.)

And who was that person you wanted to be lynched? I don't even remember you trying to push anyone. If you really wanted to lynch someone, you'd try to convince people to vote that person over the two wagons you supposedly thought are both town.

[Wisdom]

Also, I'm caught up now.

A recap of my reads:

Town: {BBT, Mala, dave, Shinobi, Huntress}
Leaning town: {goodmorning, hephaestus}
Leaning scum: {Josh}
Scum: {Peabody, uctriton}

VOTE: Peabody

[Wisdom]

Dave is town and you should stop tunneling sooner than later.

[Wisdom]

This is just a first impression:

Uct pings me as town from this 1v1.

Shinobi, not so much.

I'm on my phone, so I can examine why I believe this when I'm on my laptop again. Eh, nothing here is set in stone unless I can analyze my thoughts on both of them via isos.

I haven't commented on uct to date. So this will be my next thing to do.

Oh, and again, all this is from a cursory glance. Don't put much weight in this post. Just telling you where my mind is right now.

This never happened as far as I can tell.

Please explain how you came up with uctriton being town from the 1v1 with Shinobi, as well as your general read on uctriton.

[Wisdom]

And while you're at it, I'd like your read on Josh as well. You haven't said a thing about him in your recent posts.

[Wisdom]

Personally I prefer it like this:

Josh_B (2): Shinobi, davesaz
davesaz (2): BlueBloodedToffee, Huntress
Hephaestus (1): Josh_B
Peabody (1): Wisdom

but whatever you think is best for you.

[Wisdom]

He really does not have to do that. And we should avoid talking about who might be a mason in general.

[Wisdom]

Maybe they weren't masons with npiup, but they could be masons with someone else.

Dave already explained his though process well enough and he doesn't need to go any further.

Move on.

[Wisdom]

Just stop talking about mason read related things...

Pedit: oh ffs. Dave, bbt might be annoying but he's town.

[Wisdom]

That is not happening. Stop it and vote Peabody already

[Wisdom]

Nah, I'm lazy. Read his posts without being fixated on the silly things you are and you'll see it

Pedit: sec, I'll explain that one

[Wisdom]

Except he already explained that he discarded the thought afterwards and decided he might be scum.

You are acting like you've spotted a huge scumslip while in reality it's nothing. You are ignoring dave's defences even though he makes complete sense. If I didn't know better, I'd call you scum for this, but I know (from myself) that there are stubborn townies who act like this.

Stop it. Move on. Let it go and read the total of dave's play. He's town.

[Wisdom]

I saw it. It doesn't make any sense. It's not relevant if he thought that someone was a Mason on his own or a Mason with npiau. He explained all of his actions and his explanations make sense. You just don't want to let go.

[Wisdom]

@Mala

I like all of hephaestus posts starting with 933. It's a change in tone that tells me that hephaestus had been apathetic and mostly trolling up to that point. There he decides to post a little more seriously and I like how he does it.

Then 944. I like that reaction because it's the same I had while reading uctriton's posts. He voices his immediate thought.

His posts today are again serious and he looks like he wants to get involved again.


I'm not positive on him being town, especially since he looked like scum earlier, but it was enough for me to change my mind and consider the possibility that everything I found scummy could just be bad/apathetic town play.

[Wisdom]

Yes it does make sense.

I want to see what Dave

thought

he saw that made NPAU Mason. That's all I'm asking for this part of my case.

That would involve discussion about who might be a mason. Can you seriously not comprehend that no such discussion should happen?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, why won't you explain town-read on Dave?

Because I don't need to. You're being stupid and don't want to let go. You will eventually.

[Wisdom]

Well I'll make sure you get zero support then. You're not touching my townreads.

[Wisdom]

@Mala

Without looking, I can tell he's exactly like me. Tunnely, stubborn, fixated on little things that he thinks solve the mystery. It's like looking at myself. As scum, I imagine he'd mirror that like I do.

I'll have a look.

[Wisdom]

No it wouldn't because that

mason link to NPAU doesn't exist anymore. NPAU got lynched and was VT.

Read what I'm writing.

He would still talk about someone being potentially a mason. Still a no-go. Still not happening.
The mason read he got was not necessarily only because of connection with npiau anyway.

[Wisdom]

What townslip?

[Wisdom]

Uct and NPAU may be good wagons also. These are based on reading Scripten's ISO now that he be dead.

I guess you mean his mentioning npiau here?
Eh. Not sure this is necessarily a townslip.

[Wisdom]

Interactions between two other players made it look like one of them could be mason with NPAU

BBT, this is what dave said.

It does not in any way rule out that dave could have had thoughts about that player being a mason in general, with the connection to npiau being only secondary.

Yes, it was that possible connection that made him want to unvote. But it does not rule out a general belief about the person being a mason regardless.

I do not get why I have to explain all this when it's obvious.

[Wisdom]

You are starting getting ridiculous. You are arguing about wording there. Yes, he's talking about the connection there because that's what's relevant to why he unvoted. Nowhere does it say that outside of that connection there were no thoughts about the person being a mason.

Dave is not getting lynched, so if you want to lynch me, try it now instead.

[Wisdom]

Kay. Do this: Leave this forum for one hour, then come back, read your posts, realize how ridiculous your arguments are, and vote Peabody with me.

All this if you're really town of course.. otherwise, feel free to start fake-raging about how you've caught the scum in the details and how we're all too dumb to comprehend

[Wisdom]

Why can't you just let it go and look at the total of dave's play instead of focusing on such a small detail?

[Wisdom]

Yeah, you got me, I have no reply to that one. You win.

@dave As annoying as he might be, I promise this is most likely town behavior. Ignore him for now until he understands he's being ridiculous. Focus on the actual scum.

[Wisdom]

And certainly don't answer any mason-related questions. Enough with that topic.

[Wisdom]

You're boring. You'll sheep me on Peabody eventually, so why delay it?

[Wisdom]

You have no case. Move on from dave in general.

[Wisdom]

I'm starting to think bbt might be scum tbh

Still, we lynch Peabody first

[Wisdom]

VOTE: bbt

im tired of you

[Wisdom]

oh good, please do

[Wisdom]

Ok, so Uticron is actually town, That's good to know. I probably should have read him as town when he was arguing with shinobi, but i felt like most of that argument was over playstyle and game theory.

Why is he town?

[Wisdom]

Widsom- I don't trust you yet. Why a peabody wagon?

Because he's scum? Read my first posts.

[Wisdom]

As Scum, you don't fight the wagon because you want him lynched and you don't want to look like you knew he was Town.
As Town, you don't fight the wagon because a lynch on Town is better then no lynch at all, plus you can't be certain you're right - maybe the people who put the wagon at L-1 are on to something.

goodmorning. Don't try to apply what you do as scum/town to everyone. Each person plays differently. Trying to argue that someone is town/scum because they didn't do what's generally expected of them is bullshit. People are not following a textbook.

[Wisdom]

Unless your point is that bbt's bullshit don't make dave scum, in which case I fully agree.

[Wisdom]

I wonder which of my three scumreads is wrong if BBT is actually scum. It's starting to look more and more plausible.

[Wisdom]

Thanks.

You won't have to put up with me much more.

I think I'm going to replace out.

I see you're not replacing out after all.

So it's safe to assume this was AtE, right?

[Wisdom]

SHINOBI AND BBT- look at you two working together to push the same case on two different people. I'm having flash backs from a recent game.... BBT even the part where you asked the same question 50 billion times even though it was already answered. Have you been Metagaming recently?

Can you link to that game?

[Wisdom]

This is something scum do

That is what town do

[Wisdom]

I'm going to put off talking to/about Peabody for a while. Probably until he can post again.

Did you reread him though?

[Wisdom]

Hi Wisdom,

Joining the Dave wagon yet or do you need more convincing?

Hi BBT, I'm becoming pretty sure you're scum, especially since you're ignoring my posts. And I'm warning you, I tunnel harder than you.

[Wisdom]

As town, I would expect

There you go again with the generalizations and expectations

[Wisdom]

Now I just want to confirm that you use stuff like "town do this/scum do this" to explain your reads when you are scum, and the deal is sealed.

[Wisdom]

GM asked for my reasoning. I gave it.

Yeah, except that was no reasoning. Like I said in 1254, it can't be argued that someone is town or scum because they didn't do what theoretically was expected of them. You can't have expectations from someone because people play the game differently.

I've found that lots of scum try to push generalizations like these, so this increases my suspicions on you.

[Wisdom]

Eh, we can't be similar in every aspect. I find meta very useful.

[Wisdom]

Meh, I've given plenty of reasoning. It's strange you have fixated on those reasons.

I should warn you I'm very aware of my own meta.

Trying to use meta to read me will not work.

I'm not fixated on anything. Every point you've made has been shot down. Your "case" is essentially a single moment that you keep spamming about and don't accept any defence about it, be it from dave or other players. So now I find it more interesting finding scum traits in your posts rather than caring about convincing you. Since you don't care to be convinced.

Meta is undodgeable. That's what I also say to people to avoid being meta'd sometimes, but ultimately it always works.

[Wisdom]

Eh, not really. All of these "points" are the same thing over and over, which dave has provided more than enough defence already. Again, you don't have a case.

pedit: Most likely, he looked back and remembered that your vote was also a factor in his hesitating.

[Wisdom]

Unofficial VC:

dave (2) - BBT, Huntress
BBT (2) - dave, Wisdom
josh (1) - Shinobi
hephaestus (1) - josh


While we wait for Peabody, BBT votes are welcome.

josh, what did you think of my hephaestus townread?

[Wisdom]

If I was Dave I would have stopped responding to you a long time ago

[Wisdom]

No, you still have nada

[Wisdom]

Shinobi has been looking scummier toDay

Why is that?

[Wisdom]

I need to reread some of Scripten's games. I think he might have been killed off due to being familiar with certain players and I want to draw that connection.

He has a completed game with bbt and Josh (the one Josh just linked)

[Wisdom]

And another one with Dave and bbt

So yeah, your point might mean bbt scum

[Wisdom]

You said 2 with Dave, what's the other one besides newbie 1524?

[Wisdom]

If I didn't miss something, Scripten's 3 completed games are:

Newbie 1508 (no other players from this game)
Micro 382 (BBT and Josh)
Newbie 1524 (BBT and Dave)

So that's 2 with BBT, 1 with Josh and 1 with Dave, no?

[Wisdom]

I'm also reading the micro and it appears that it begins with a scripten/bbt 1v1 akin to the Dave/bbt we have here. So bbt is certainly familiar with him.

[Wisdom]

Adding to 1309: The scripten/BBT 1v1 in that game is TOO similar to the dave/BBT one here. BBT is blindly tunneling on Scripten in the exact same way. Guess that's what Josh meant earlier.

I think it might be BBT is replicating his meta (he's town in that game).

[Wisdom]

Look at Peabody. He straight said, "I think NPAU is town" and voted him in the same post.

So do you agree with my Peabody scumread? Earlier you asked me why I wanted to wagon him.

Also

josh, what did you think of my hephaestus townread?

[Wisdom]

Except that isn't why I think peabody is scum.

Also I made some points on why I think hephaestus is town when Mala asked me, did you see them?

[Wisdom]

Mala, I think you just said that you voted NPAU as a policy lynch.

She nowhere said that. She was pretty clear as to why she voted npiau.

UNVOTE:

[Wisdom]

I read 12 pages of that micro featuring Scripten/josh/BBT. My conclusion is that BBT is doing the deathtunnel thing regardless of alignment - Scripten even pointed out that he might be doing it to manipulate his meta, and he might be correct.

So I'll try to completely disregard my feelings about BBT's deathtunneling and try to read him from other aspects of his play. Till then, I am removing my vote and placing it back on my top suspect.

And I'll be honest, I don't like josh much so him trying to guide me in further scumreading BBT and now voting him has its effects too.

VOTE: Peabody

[Wisdom]

It's people who made comments like this one...

In post 266, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
I'm not liking NPAU right now. I think he is my #1 lynch for today.

... but asking why people voted for NPAU that make me FoS.

This is very weak reasoning. Being wrong about a scumread does not mean he shouldn't question other people who joined the wagon. You're trying to pass this as a contradiction/hypocrisy and I don't like it.

[Wisdom]

Hephaestus's "ucitron is scum" statement was very empty. As all of his reads have been.

And? Does that make him scum?

I just read a general discussion thread about apathy, and I'm starting to see that as an excuse more and more. It's going to be a scum buzzword soon enough.

Apathy exists, like it or not. You have to take it into consideration. Or does it bother you that the apathy angle does not let you push your mislynch forward?

Wisdom, I see your case on Peabody as a good start to get more information out of him. I'll decide further when he responds.

So you do not have a read on him right now?

[Wisdom]

It makes him suspicious.

No, it doesn't. Tons of townies post that way.

Well this looks like a loaded question if I've ever seen one. What makes you so sure it's a mislynch?

The way you whined about apathy seemed to me like you were annoyed that I brought up that possibility. I don't see why you are whining about apathy instead of considering it as it being the case. Of course, it would make sense if hephaestus is just mislynch fodder to you.

Probably town. He seemed to be receptive towards BBT not being scum earlier, although I don't think his reason for thinking scum BBT was all that bad. I can see that Scripten was suspicious of him at points. If he's someone that I haven't fully decided on and is skating by while town argues with themselves, I think it should be evident. [sarcasm]Maybe he's apathetic [/sarcasm]

I don't quite understand why you're townreading him. Elaborate please.

[Wisdom]

Ad populum makes Hepheastus townie?

No, it shows your argument is bullshit.

How is he mislynch fodder? Is the case on him weak?

I don't recall there being a case on him. So no, it's not weak, it's non-existent.

[Wisdom]

I asked him, he didn't answer.

Anything else to contribute, uctriton?

[Wisdom]

Trying to decide if Dave genuinely just hard town-slipped or it's a fake.

What are you talking about?

[Wisdom]

Cuz wasn't here

Yeah, I am not sure what he is saying there, so I don't think it's a townslip or something.

I do find it weird though that you saw this as a townslip while you're deathtunneling on him.

[Wisdom]

But yeah I think he's saying that scum are minimum two there. Which might in fact be a townslip. I don't see him as someone who'd fake such a thing.

And it does make me feel better about you too. If you were scum deathtunneling you'd keep silent about this and hope nobody notices, I guess.

[Wisdom]

But I don't get what he means that if you go off as either alignment then his scumread on you becomes weaker.

Dave, can you explain?

[Wisdom]

So are you going to answer why he's town?

[Wisdom]

What changed in the interim?

MS replaced out, and I don't expect Wisdom to be able to justify the actions of a different player. Do you even read? Wisdom and I are having a conversation about reads. It's almost like I'm making it a point to interact with the new player who is in a slot that I find scummy.

I don't feel like you're engaging me at all, nope. I'm the one trying to get answers from you.

[Wisdom]

The case is that his previous slot holder Nya was posting elsewhere and not in this game(classic scum lurking)
That his votes have been empty and he has not provided much content, or scum hunted.
He has been maxing out his prod time, and was slotted to be replaced at one point.

None of these are necessarily scum traits. See apathetic townie.

[Wisdom]

We could put hephaestus to the lurker vs. absent test. Run up a wagon, and see how long it takes him to appear and how he responds to the accusation.
I've thought it was scummy all along, but wanted to hold off to see if it was really just RL pressure.
This is by no means the strongest possible approach, but it's something that might get results.

VOTE: hephaestus

Why hephaestus? Peabody and uctriton are also inactive and much more likely to be scum.

[Wisdom]

He said he's town. I believe him. Believing him makes me happy. Happiness is the truth.

That's not an explanation. Try again, or you're admitting you are pulling reads out of your ass and you can't explain them.

And explain the Peabody townread too.

[Wisdom]

vote: josh

Hi there. Are you going to post anything useful anytime soon?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: josh

Unofficial VC:

josh (3) - Shinobi, uctriton, Wisdom
dave (2) - BBT, Huntress
BBT (1) - josh
hephaestus (1) - dave

[Wisdom]

Mala, what did you think of BBT pointing out dave's townslip?

[Wisdom]

Huntress, I'd love it if you explained why you say/do things.

You never answered my 1296 either.

[Wisdom]

Okay.. I expect worked out reads from you in the near future then.

[Wisdom]

While we wait for peabody to appear, wagon Josh with us

[Wisdom]

Just for the vote? Did you see his recent posts?

[Wisdom]

vote: josh

If you don't believe Uctriton, or me, that he's town, look at this OMGUS that proves it.

I cannot recall a scum OMGUSing a player for calling them town in the history of ever!
Also, I don't think shinobi came out ahead in the convo with Uctriton. I think Uctriton came out ahead. I really liked his tactic of having Shinobi make a case on him. I honestly don't think that ever happened.

Do you know what omgus means..? You don't seem like you do.

Explain why uctriton seemed townier in that 1v1. Explain your peabody townread. Stop dodging.

[Wisdom]

BBT when you do anti-town things in a game like tunnel a townie to death just because they weren't on a lynch wagon, expect to be FoS'd.
When you do it two games in a row, you're either scum or playing against your wincon.

We already went through that. BBT tunnels. As both alignments. His tunnels landing on town isn't going to change his playstyle. At least not anytime soon.

[Wisdom]

As far as a current read: POE, him not appearing to be suspicious, there being actually suspicious things from other players, gut.

PoE? So you have found the whole scumteam and you are so sure about everyone of them that it makes Peabody town?
How is he not suspicious? Even if you disregard his deadline behavior that is scummy as all hell, look at the total of his game: I only see robotic posts and no contribution. Do you see different? Do you see anything in his posts that might indicate he is town? Surely there must be something, if your gut says he is town.

Uctriton appears more town based on him forcing Shinobi to explain the case.

Why? Can't scum force people to explain their cases on them?
I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

And there plenty of uses for OMGUS votes. In this case
Me: Uctriton is town
Uctriton: OMGUS- Vote:you.
I think that if Uctriton were scum, he would be happy to have someone town read him. If he is town like he says he is, he might feel like being called town is suspicious.

OMGUS means: Oh my god, you suck (for voting me). It's used when x votes y for the sole reason that y voted x. It does not apply to townreads.
Uctriton might be scum seeing your wagon having potential so he decided to join it. Why not consider this possibility?
And he didn't even say anywhere that he voted you for calling him town, that's your own reasoning.

And seriously what is with "he says he is town so he's town"?

[Wisdom]

I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

Need to correct this after rereading.

The reason I felt Shinobi was townier from the 1v1 wasn't this, it was the tone and passion in his posts. He thought he had found scum and that said scum was trying to reverse the suspicion into making people think Shinobi is scum instead.
On the other hand, uctriton was really calm and just kept answering with sheer logic.

IME, scum use the latter approach because they want to look good and earn cred, while townies flail without putting limits because they don't care. That's why I felt uctriton wasn't as town as Shinobi there.

Now that I reread though, I could see both being town. uctriton's actions weren't that unreasonable given Shinobi was tunneling.

[Wisdom]

I didn't feel there were any signs of panic. Your vote on him came out of nowhere and he just couldn't understand it. It didn't help that you weren't explaining. You even went to the extent of saying "I don't have to explain my thought process to you because you're scum" which is as tunnely as it gets and doesn't leave much space to the other player.

I felt that you were more jumpy and loud, driven by the fact you felt uctriton was trying to turn it around and paint you in a negative light, while uctriton was like "dude, everything you're saying makes no sense. you're digging your own hole." while showing why that is.

[Wisdom]

OMG, I said I'd reconsider that read. What more do you expect? How do you expect to resolve this without Peabody being present?

Peabody does not need to be here in order for you to share what he has done that made you think you are town. That's all I'm asking for and you still refuse to give it.

Scum can do whatever they want. Uctriton though is probably town. How many Ad Populum statements are you going to make?

If scum can also do it, how does it makes uctriton probably town?

I said that I believe him.

Which makes zero sense. Are you saying scum can't claim they are town? I was just reading a game with you and BBT in it and BBT was scum and said "I am town". So?

I have to guess things. It won't be the first time that I've guessed wrong. But you tunneling this shit doesnt mean I'm right or wrong, it just puts me into a postion to either second guess myself, or to say I'm absolutely right and your are an idiot.
Fortunately, I know that you are not an idiot. Scum probably, but not an idiot.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. What shit am I tunneling?
Why are you not pushing me if I'm probably scum? You've tried to engage me exactly one time, and that was when I entered the game. After that, nothing, despite your strong MS scumread.

I also know that our conversation has become redundant. I've guessed as much as I can guess, and explained as much of my guess's as I can. If I haven't answered your questions by now, I can't. I've reached the limits of my imagination as far as this game goes. If you like that, great, lets move on, if you don't that's on you.

You have not explained anything. I take it you're giving up then.

Nothing has happened gamestate wise that caused me to change my mind. I'm not going to change my opinion just because you want me to without seeing further evidence. But for now, regardless of Hephaestus, Uctriton, and Peabody, I'm pretty sure that my vote is on scum, and I'm going with it.

I fail to see where I told you to change your opinion. I am asking you to explain your own opinion and you aren't doing it.

[Wisdom]

that made you think you are town

that made you think

he is town

*

[Wisdom]

That's not the similarity he was talking about...

[Wisdom]

I have to guess things.

So, what you're saying is, your reads on Peabody and uctriton are just random guesses. You don't have reasoning for them.

[Wisdom]

Josh, what is your current read on me? If you want to end the discussion with me it must mean you've reached a conclusion, yes?

[Wisdom]

That's not what I asked you. Am I scum? Am I town? What do you think right now, be honest.

[Wisdom]

I didn't have any issues with her posts regarding the 1v1.

[Wisdom]

Josh I see you lurking around.. Talk to me

[Wisdom]

gm scum by association (npau flipping town, and josh is saying that gm should be cleared)

I don't think either of these make goodmorning scum. Even if josh is scum.

[Wisdom]

No?

[Wisdom]

dunno I remember liking his posts a lot when I was reading the game, and I found BBT's "case" terrible, so

Plus he has now townslipped as you'll see in a bit

[Wisdom]

yea I corrected it

[Wisdom]

You were reading him as solid town way before that slip.

And before I presented my case on him if I remember correctly.

Yeah I was, your point is?

[Wisdom]

My point is don't use reasoning to justify a town-read when those reasons are only applicable after the fact.

You refused to explain your town-read on Dave when it first appeared.

Except my reasoning wasn't the townslip.

[Wisdom]

My reasoning for the town read was "liking his posts when I was reading the game".

The part about your terrible push on him was about uctriton's question regarding "relegating him untouchable".

The slip was an extra regarding my current read on him.

All clear?

[Wisdom]

You have this bad habit of ignoring what people want to say and change it to mean whatever you want it to mean. Stahp.

[Wisdom]

So josh, now peabody posted. Give a read on him please.

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile, Josh still lurking

[Wisdom]

I'll tell you after josh gives us his

[Wisdom]

Kay...

[Wisdom]

Dunno about that one, but your response to me was a scumclaim. More on why in a bit because I'm phoneposting right now.

In the meanwhile, give me your opinion on peabody's recent posts like I asked you to.

[Wisdom]

Nah, I was referring to 1470.

That whole wall does not even remotely feel like you think I am scum, even if you directly state you think so in it. Like, you make the point "Wisdom townreads hephaestus, weird" and then you explain how I could have been driven to that townread via having three strong scumreads. You further explain that might be the case using meta. So what's the deal, you make an accusation then you defend me from it yourself?

I can think of the following things to explain this behavior:

1) You know your arguments for me-scum are ridiculously weak, so you try to play it off like you can see why they're wrong but you're confused. That could give you cred because it appears like you're trying to figure me out but don't know how.

2) You're trying to buddy me. You think I'll see your post and go "oh, that guy totally understands how I am seeing this game. He might be town after all". The fact you mention tunnels from previous games of mine makes this even more possible, as I can't help but think that you're trying to make me think that I'm wrongly tunneling on you.

Maybe it's a mixture of both.

The reason I asked you to state whether you think I am town or scum in the first place is because it was already evident from the way you answered my accusations that you didn't think I am scum. You cared more about trying to make me stop tunneling on you and less (at all, actually) about finding some sort of scum motivation in me pushing you. So I wanted you to state that you think I am scum to prove that you're contradicting yourself.

So yup, you're scum.

[Wisdom]

Okay, thank you for finally sharing a detailed read on Peabody.

Now for my own interpretation on his 1446.

BBT's 1v1 vs DaveAZ doesn't look good to me. The push on Dave is based on Dave not doing a certain expected action like 'make another wagon with two days until deadline.' See, I mean, I'm shrugging at this because it's putting expectations on a specific person for a specific action when the way every poster interacts is unique. Maybe gunning for another wagon is something BBT would do, but maybe not Dave. I know it takes a while for me to develop scum reads after I townread the one I voted for.

This first part is a

direct copy

of my own stance on BBT's dave push. See 1254 for details.

I was going to vote BBT and then I saw his pointing out of Dave's townslip in 1335.

This continues to reflect my own view on BBT. I stopped pushing BBT when he pointed out that townslip. Peabody mimics it.

What do you think of BBT pointing out a possible Dave scumslip after tunnelling him?

lol->

Mala, what did you think of BBT pointing out dave's townslip?

The only difference here is Peabody was so focused on copying me that he forgot it's a townslip and called it scumslip

The explaining of why uctriton looked townier means zero to me since I already discussed it with josh and Shinobi and as far as I'm concerned Peabody is just copying the consensus for that. Too late.

The rest of his post is a waffly read on josh. He concludes he doesn't know if he should townread him or scumread him. Figures, because he really doesn't want his scumbuddy lynched but he can't afford defending him either. He's afraid it will be too suspicious.

[Wisdom]

But I'm not done yet.

Maybe because they are posturing for a Peabody lynch. Yesterday, I was on a majority of the town's TOWN list. Now I'm the target of an 'eh, I'd lynch him'. You won't be able to make anything of this until after my flip, but it may be helpful to look at the pattern now so this doesn't fall through the cracks. Especially if I'm deemed 'town' again and not lynched.

This really comes out of nowhere. Nobody other than myself is considering his lynch, and even I have moved my vote to someone else. There is zero discussion regarding a possible Peabody lynch. Yet here's Peabody, worrying about his possible getting lynched, seeing non-existent posturing about it everywhere he looks.

And then we have this:

I'm going to try to be more active so I don't have to catch up on every post. You guys are averaging like 3 pages a day. o.o

No promises, but I cannot let this game do this too me. The vast amount of information flowing is paralyzing me.

You would expect someone who wants to get back in the game and be active to actually.. try to get back in the game. The content of all those last posts together was: a) answering questions he had not answered in time, b) asking a few pointless questions with zero follow-up to Huntress, c) talk to dave about how people are supposedly conspiring to lynch him. No reads. No votes or a case on anybody. No analysis on anything that has happened (besides the BBT v dave thing, where all of his analysis were just copying mine). Nothing useful at all. And yet he's trying to be active.

[Wisdom]

So, tl;dr.

Peabody and josh are both scum.

All that remains is to find the third one. PoE currently says hephaestus, but both Peabody and Josh voting him on D1 throws me off. Though, it was safe to do so at that point in time given the large npiau and goodmorning wagons.

And a little extra I noticed while rereading earlier today: Peabody and josh replaced AssMuffin and Rambler respectively. You know, those two guys that picked up their role PMs yet chose not to post. Wonder why.

[Wisdom]

Just a tip, you need a case if you want to get support. Right now it just looks like you want to subtly make people doubt me because I've figured out two scum.

[Wisdom]

What does your and Peabody's D1 vote on hephaestus have to do with 1288?

I think the point you wanted to make was "didn't you say hephaestus is town? Why are you now considering him as the third scum?". The answer to that is that he's my weakest townread which I was doubting anyway due to his failing to participate in the game like it seemed he wanted to do in the beginning of D2. My other scumreads became more town in the meanwhile, so that makes him a quite plausible third scum.

[Wisdom]

GM is the third scum.

I doubt it, but what was your case on her again?

[Wisdom]

You lied in your first post this game ^^

pedit: That's not really a case, but it's in regard to hephaestus

[Wisdom]

She can, unfortunately, be like this as town.

Anyway, we'll care about who the third scum is after lynching the other two.

[Wisdom]

I've been trying to get Hephaestus votes all game if you are going to say I'm scum, IT'S NEVER GOING TO MAKE SENSE THAT THE ONE PERSON I'VE CALLED SCUM ALL GAME IS ON MY TEAM.

Yeah, because scum never bus. That's the same argument you made when you supported that npiau can't possibly be scum with goodmorning because he voted her.

Noope.

[Wisdom]

Besides, you pushed hephaestus as a policy lynch. Something you knew people wouldn't agree with.

[Wisdom]

It doesn't matter if you said it. The reasons you wanted to lynch him for were policy material. Therefore it was safe to push him.

[Wisdom]

Yeah and I'm also proving why it was safe for you to bus him

[Wisdom]

Wonder if I'll find you bussing in your past scum games. That'd be fun.

[Wisdom]

Aaand here we go.

In this post of Micro 337, Josh-scum votes his partner and calls him scum for the rest of the game.

See BBT? That's how you catch lying scumbutts using meta.

[Wisdom]

Which means you're perfectly aware that scum can and do bus.

And despite that you act like it's forbidden to suspect both you and hephaestus because you've been pushing him, or that it was forbidden to consider npiau and goodmorning a scumteam.

[Wisdom]

What circumstances..?

You literally said "omg you're suspecting me and the person I'm suspecting such a contradiction"

[Wisdom]

I don't think anyone needs you to claim, no

[Wisdom]

goodmorning, disagree josh is scum?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:

Don't want you to selfhammer and halt discussion. Goodmorning might as well finish reading.

[Wisdom]

Which doesn't mean we have to wait two weeks before we lynch. The sooner the better.

But yeah, people talking a little more before we do would be good.

[Wisdom]

Who would you think is scum if josh flipped town?

[Wisdom]

What do you mean "me"? You would think you are scum..?

[Wisdom]

Tbh, after rereading, I find uctriton more town than you. I just didn't like how you dodged/ignored certain points there.

[Wisdom]

You mean like peabody is doing?

[Wisdom]

What troubles me is that in my most recent game, kibbles' scum strategy was to mirror me logically and use most of my same language, to try to endear me. Unfortunately the town derped so hard and we died.

Peabody is copying me in a similar way to this.

[Wisdom]

Shinobi, what are your reads other than josh?

[Wisdom]

I did a hard reset. I feel josh and peabody might be town after all and that I've been changing after posting styles I don't like as well as bad reactions to pressure.

I'm now thinking Shinobi and BBT are scum, with hephaestus being the most possible third again.

I very much dislike how Shinobi's entire D2 has been a tunnel on josh, with no interest in getting other reads whatsoever.

My read on BBT has gone back to scum again. I just got heavy scumvibes from his posts after I declared my josh/peabody scumreads. Like he was now confident that things are safe. And bringing up goodmorning out nowhere once again also pinged pretty bad.

VOTE: Shinobi

[Wisdom]

and that I've been changing after

chasing*

[Wisdom]

Yeah, no. You were trying to make people vote him and goodmorning hammer him.

[Wisdom]

Nah, my recent reads are probably the scumteam

[Wisdom]

Oh? Entertain me then, why are Shinobi and hephaestus town?

[Wisdom]

Then how are my reads terrible if you could lynch 2 of them?

[Wisdom]

That doesn't make them terrible. Who says that the scumteam has the scummiest players in it?

Vote Shinobi with me.

[Wisdom]

Nope.

Figures you're not voting Shinobi...

[Wisdom]

I already said why. His whole D2 has been a tunnel on josh. He has not made a single attempt to get any reads.

Add his behavior in the 1v1 with Uctriton as well as his contradiction that Huntress pointed out and there you have it.

[Wisdom]

Town do tunnel. Not my point.

[Wisdom]

You said he has spent the day tunnelling Josh, as if that somehow makes him scum. When it doesn't.

It does. Townies try to get reads. Shinobi has done nada.

[Wisdom]

I'm not a fan of Shinobi's play at all this game. He has basically played the 'lazy' card for the entirety of the game so far. I could certainly see him being scum, however, he is not a priority right now. There are scummier people to look at.

Translation: hi I'm bbt and I'm Shinobi's scumbuddy

[Wisdom]

Reads change man, too bad.

If I'm so wrong, then wagon Shinobi with me, if only just to pressure him. What do you have to lose if you're town?

[Wisdom]

It's a system I've started recently to fight off my tunneling. I reread considering my suspects being town, and see how much that makes sense. If it does, I look for new suspects.

As to what triggered it, I already explained what I didn't like from Shinobi and you the last few pages.

[Wisdom]

It's more "they can be town" than "they are town". I read their posts again and decided that even if they're quirky and antitown as hell, I can accept them coming from town.

[Wisdom]

I think I was quite clear already. You're doing your "repeat question a million times" again and I don't care to let you continue.

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile, you're still avoiding voting Shinobi

[Wisdom]

It's cute how you defend Shinobi while calling him maybe scum.

Caught scum are cute in general

[Wisdom]

I don't remember calling him that. I already told you, the scummiest people are not necessarily scum.

As to why he is scum, I already gave my reasons.

[Wisdom]

I'm quite clear already, but okay

I.didn't like Shinobi.and you the last few pages. Already said why.

This triggered a hard reset.

I then saw josh and pea could be town. It's not "I saw something town", it's "I accepted their posts don't necessarily come from scum."

Uctriton and goodmorning have been trying to get reads, yes. Off the top of my head, goodmorning pregressed her ms scumread into a Wisdom townread and uctriton tried to read Shinobi off their exchange. Those are just examples, I can iso them and provide more later.

[Wisdom]

Nope, see the exchange again. Uctriton wanted a case, asked questions, Shinobi kept dodging.

[Wisdom]

I'll tell you in detail when not on phone.

Though I'm pretty sure you can find it on your own

[Wisdom]

I can't believe he actually thought NPAU would, or could, respond before the mod locked the thread

Why not?

[Wisdom]

Huntress, you scumread both uct and Shinobi. Do you agree that both being scum is quite unlikely?

[Wisdom]

Shinobi is much more likely scum. See his entire D2. He has done nothing other than trying to make josh seem scummy. Oh, and buddying me.

[Wisdom]

You're not scum for pushing josh. You're scum for doing nothing else. You have not tried getting any reads. You have not engaged anyone. All you've cared for is making josh appear bad.

[Wisdom]

Your Mala "poking" amounts to "I'd like her to post but she's v/la" and I don't remember you trying to sort bbt at any point.

[Wisdom]

I've read your posts already

[Wisdom]

Oookay.

[Wisdom]

^ still not voting Shinobi

[Wisdom]

He gotta flail, he's as caught as you

[Wisdom]

Yup yup.

[Wisdom]

With the whole town

[Wisdom]

Too bad.

[Wisdom]

Nah, for you that don't like em

[Wisdom]

You don't have any other choice but to argue that at this point, yeah. I've been in your shoes.

Good luck.

[Wisdom]

That I'm scum. Because you're caught.

[Wisdom]

1559 explains why I changed my read on you.

[Wisdom]

Thanks!

[Wisdom]

@BBT

So here's where uctriton tried to do things on D2:

1333 - trying to figure out why josh is calling him town
1421 - reads and explanations on five people
1424/1426 - questions to me, even though I'm his townread, he still wants to know why I say/do certain things
1461 - opinion on Peabody posting
1546/1547 - questioning things he didn't like from Shinobi

Here's where goodmorning tried to do things on D2:

1019 - pointing out what she didn't like from Josh
1029 - disagreeing with Peabody finding josh town for the mason thing
1073/1082/1087 etc. - questioning shinobi and you. This is quite important as early D2 was all about your and Shinobi's cases on dave and josh respectively and her questioning focuses on proving how those cases are faulty.
1416 - changing her read on me - which was not just any read, but the read on her top suspect all game.


Yes, it can be argued that those are not much for either player. However, both of them have not been very active, which means that those are enough for the time they have had to spend on this game.

Shinobi on the other hand? He's been very active, so he doesn't have this excuse, yet his posts fixate on a certain person and nowhere does he care about engaging people or trying to get reads. In the few cases that he does ask questions, there is no followup or analysis on the answers he gets.

[Wisdom]

but I fail to see what conclusions - in your mind - I should be drawing from the questions that I've asked thus far.

Any conclusions. Like "I think this makes you town. I think this might make you scum." You haven't even given us any reads other than "OMG SUPER UBER TOWN wisdom" and "TOTEZ OBVSCUM josh".

[Wisdom]

You're acting like I should have solid reads on every single player in the game right now and I don't.

Solid maybe not. Some kind of read, yes.

[Wisdom]

Mala isn't posting so I can't question her.

And? She has posted plenty of content for you to have a read on her.

GM is hardly playing so I can't question her. I've already tried asking you about her and you're just like "nah I don't think stuff about that stuff." I thought she was scummy earlier but I guess that just kind of evaporated into nothingness because you wanted it to.

Same as Mala, and what? You asked me if I think something she did was scummy and I told you no. That was all. I more see that as a subtle way of you trying to make me scumread goodmorning than actually caring about reading goodmorning.

Heph isn't playing so I can't question him.

And that magically prevents you from having a read on him.

I've already discovered that uct is town.

Static read. After the 1v1, you should be questioning everything uct is doing, yet you don't care in the slightest. You labelled him town when it was convenient and left it at that.

Non-existent reads where you should have reads and the rest are weak and static.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, if BBT and Shinobi are scum, which scum is on the NPAU wagon?

Or do you think NPAU wagon was entirely town?

Don't particularly care about that wagon, seeing how it was a panicky last minute one and stuff. Plus practically everyone had expressed a scumread on npiau at some point, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was all town.

[Wisdom]

This, yeah. It feels like goodmorning is his safe go-to when his tunnels on others don't get support.

[Wisdom]

^tl;dr
Wisdom changes his reads a lot
Wisdom strongly defends his reads

[Wisdom]

In Wisdom's first post, 1068, he states he is scum-reading Pea. This is a recurring theme throughout.

1077 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1089 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1105 - Presents reasons for Pea being scum.

1106 - Finally votes Pea.

This whole section contradicts your latter "He never pushed Pea".

Now, here he decides to start White-knighting Dave. He spends roughly the next 8 pages white-knighting Dave. Hard - 1108, 1122, 1125, 1132, 1139, 1142, 1148, 1150, 1156, 1161, 1167, 1169, 1194, 1281. This just feels wrong. If Dave was under threat of a lynch, I can understand him jumping to his defence, but it was just me pushing. Wisdom got himself hugely invested in something that had nothing to do with him, and I have to ask myself why? I think this was a great opportunity for Wisdom to gain himself some town-cred. He went to great lengths to discredit my case and even flat out answer questions that were directed at Dave.

Here is where I quite simply defended Dave from your terrible push. Which is what happens when I think someone is town. I thought you are also town and are tunneling on him, and tried making you realize you're tunneling and stop. You ignored me, and this started slowly raising flags regarding you.

1137 - Refused to explain town-read on Dave, who he had been heavily defending, but was happy to explain town-read on Uct. I never did get answer as to why this was the case? I've noticed that Wisdom can be fluffy with his reads, and he also later went on to explain his town-read once the situation had died down. More on that later.

There was no reason for me to explain anything to you because quite simply, you weren't listening. When Mala asked me about hephaestus (and not Uct), I answered to her.
Yup, I can be fluffy with my reads. I only explain them fully if I feel it's important.

1174 - Wisdom is still town-reading me. Despite my persistence on pushing Dave.

mhm. Still gave you the benefit of the doubt. You're a tunnely player like me so I wanted to believe that you're just being blind and not listening. I started dropping that as time passed and you still weren't moving an inch from your position.

There is now a sudden change in his read. He goes from saying 'He promises I am most likely town' to;

1205 - Scum-reading me. I would like to know what happened between 1174 and 1205 that changed this read.

I grew tired. You didn't want to listen to reason. Meant you didn't care about reason. Meant you might easily be scum.

1319 & 1321 - Begins to scum-read Josh. Votes Pea...what? Well, I guess he has been scum-reading him the entire game whilst not actually pressing for his lynch.

josh was a weaker scumread for D2, I voted him because I wanted to engage him and find out more. Pea was not around so I figured I can use the time to sort my other reads.

1369 - Votes Josh. He moves off his biggest scum-read who he has been scum-reading the entire game onto a new target. Conveniently, Josh's wagon looks like it was in the ascendency at this point.

It was, which helped putting pressure on him.

1393 - States why Pea is scum, but he's pushing whilst his vote is elsewhere. Why?

Because I have multiple scumreads. Pea was still scum for me, but at that moment I was still pressuring josh.

1428 - Yay, he finally explains his town-read on Dave. It's almost 300 posts late, but we got it in the end. The problem is, he tries to use reasons that didn't happen until AFTER he started town-reading Dave. This leads me to believe it was in fact an attempt at WK'ing to gain the town's trust and credit. He had no reason to involve himself and could not explain his town-read when first asked.

Yep, and I explain it because someone other than you wants to know. My reason was still that I liked his posts, which was the original reason I had given to begin with. The townslip was an extra referring to my then-current read.
Believe me, I'm skilled enough to explain my townreads when I want to WK as scum.

1533 - Unvotes Josh - because he's scared of scum self-hammering...what? I'm thinking this was a bus from Wisdom, I really can't make my mind up though.

I was still pretty sure Josh is scum and might self-hammer so halt discussion that could help in finding his buddies. Didn't need that happening.

1559 - Completely retracts everything. Josh and Pea are now town. Seriously. He actually did that.

Yep. Hard reset.

One of those three is scum, possibly two. I'm most confident about Wisdom, the fact he has been scum-reading Pea for the entirety of the game and never actually pushed it hard is a little concerning.

Blah blah. You're not voting me. And you're contradicting yourself as I already said. You yourself mentioned I was pushing and voting Pea in the first section of this post. As for why that didn't continue, as I already explained I tried sorting the rest of my reads while Pea wasn't around to answer to my questions.

It's even more concerning when you consider that 'He tunnels harder than I do.' Really? Because I don't see it. It leads me to believe that Pea is scum as well, Wisdom has been soft-bussing all game and that Josh is actually town.

Oh I'm notorious for my deathtunneling. I'm starting to fix it now though.

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

You already said why you think I did it in a previous post: To get a claim from Josh and move onto someone else, no?
You're not saying it here because you want people to think of it by themselves. Manipulation at its best.

As for why I really unvoted, already explained.

[Wisdom]

I support a Shinobi lynch

Not seeing your vote

[Wisdom]

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

A Josh town flip would look really bad for him. Suspicious Josh gives him more town credit.

I've never cared about that. I'd argue you were a terrible townie (which you kinda are, if you are town, but more on that at endgame) and move on.

[Wisdom]

True that, and add Peabody to that pile now that he unvoted

[Wisdom]

@1663 - That first section isn't contradictory at all. It states you were scum-reading Pea, which you were. You didn't push it though, instead, you chose to focus on defending Dave. Gaining town-cred in the process.

Peabody wasn't around to push him. You and Dave were around. I focus on what's around.

Like I said, had Dave been under threat of being lynched, I could understand you trying to defend him. This was just an opportunity for you to try and look like town.

In danger of getting lynched or not doesn't matter. In my view you had a bad read and you had to stop it because it was distracting for the game in general.

Now, if I'm a tunnely player like you, then you know full well that the tunnel doesn't end quickly. Therefore, you should have been expecting me to continue pushing. The fact you started scum-reading me contradicts your earlier explanation for why I was town.

I've tunneled a lot in the past but I rarely had people trying to make me understand where I was wrong. Mostly people were frustrated and either ignored me or scumread me. In the few cases that people saw my tunneling and tried to help me clear my mind, I did listen to them. You, on the other hand, didn't care about what I was saying and mostly wanted me to go away so you can continue your dave tunnel.

You didn't vote Josh in 1319 and 1321. You stated he was scummy and voted Pea.

I had switched from Peabody to you. I saw I wasn't sure about you being scum after metaing you so I switched back to Peabody. Josh voting you had its impact too because I had been finding him scummy in D2. I said so.

You voted Josh in 1369. His wagon in the ascendency and an opportunistic vote.

The fact his wagon was in the ascendency helped me pressure him more, which was the intention of my vote in the first place. This is why I posted that vc too, to show him he's getting votes.

You stated earlier that you 'only explain reads when you feel it necessary'. Why was it more imporant to explain your town-read on Dave when asked by somebody else as opposed to when I was pushing him and thinking he was scum? Also, you 'liking his posts' is ridiculously generic and fluffy, I want you to elaborate.

I did not care to explain to you because you clearly didn't want to listen. Others asking me care to listen because they're trying to develop a read on Dave. So I help them.

Yeah, I mean, scum self-hammering. That's so bad for town right? I mean scum hammering themselves, whatever would we do?

Caught scum often self-hammer themselves so that the town can't discuss more and find their buddies. Josh looked like he was in that position. At L-1 and with nobody appearing to want to change their mind on him.

You haven't pushed Pea hard at all, especially given you're 'notorious' for your death-tunnelling. You've voted him, whilst pursuing other people. You've never truly pushed him.

I've said everything I've found bad about him each time he posts. There's no way to have a lengthy 1v1 with him if he's not here posting.

Here's my theory why. When scum soft-buss scum all day, they accomplish a few things. Firstly, it truly looks like they're scum-hunting. Your case is legit because you know him to be scum, but you have to balance it so you don't push so hard that everybody joins. I think you have done that pretty well.

Except I did push hard. Explain how someone can push harder than I did with Peabody not being here.

Secondly, you don't attract unwanted attention from townies. When you attack a townie, they ask why? They investigate, they ask questions etc etc. When you do it to your own scum partner, you don't have any of this to deal with.

So by this logic, everyone I've attacked must be scum. What a big scumteam.

[Wisdom]

At this rate, I see the day going to deadline.

Can we vote Shinobi or BBT already?