Open 571- Pick Your Poison Game over

[Alchemist21]

Who's Fluminator and why are people voting for him?

P.S. I'm new here so I don't know the people here.

[Alchemist21]

Who's Fluminator and why are people voting for him?

P.S. I'm new here so I don't know the people here.

Don't worry I haven't played with anyone in this game either apart from reinoe. Two votes on a wagon could just be not paying attention. Three votes in RVS would be unusal.

Really? let's make it unusual then

Vote: Flubinator

-Kuro

VOTE: Fluminator

Lets push this puppy as far as it will go.

Why would the two of you want to push this seemingly random wagon so early in the game?

[Alchemist21]

So if you did actually think the question was, "what would you pick as mafia," why would you answer with the 3 roles that are hardest to fakeclaim? Wouldn't that be protown?

Because if i give town the roles hardest to fake claim, town wont know which PRs are in and which aren't so I can fake claim the other ones without someone counterclaiming.

If the town got the hard-to-fakeclaim roles and mafia tried to fakeclaim the other 2, then people would catch on after the actual PR's were confirmed and know who the mafia are. The mafia would be smarter to throw in the easiest roles to fakeclaim in the game so they can fakeclaim and try to call a townie's or 2's credibility into question.

[Alchemist21]

Also i'll be signing my posts as Kuro, pieguy will sign them as Yuu.

-Kuro

[Alchemist21]

What alignment were they in that game? This could be a tell.

[Alchemist21]

And how long ago was that game?

[Alchemist21]

Link please?

[Alchemist21]

Hmmm... Well You're right about Sakura's problem with it as seen halfway down these results but in this following post she pointed out your own compliance with signing posts as town.

I was the one posting pro-Rubicomicon, Mantis was the one posting anti-Rubicomicon. Not sure how that wasn't obvious!

You know if you're going to pull this shit hydra dissonance then you better start signing your posts or im gonna take both of your heads as one, you didn't have an issue signing posts in Open 552 where you were town so i'm going to assume that if you're town and don't want to confuse other town members you won't have an issue doing so here.

At first I would have said this was pretty damning evidence of Sisters being scum, but that post points out you being flip-floppy on your signing habits as strictly town, so it's not 100% confidence. Still seems worth looking into this game though.

Vote Matsumi Sisters

[Alchemist21]

Wait.

Unvote

There's an important aspect I overlooked. Sakura only expressed a problem with hydras in both this game and that game only if dissonence occurs. Seems illogical to me for a player to wait until after dissonance to ask a hydra to start signing, since signing from the start would solve this problem. Still, Sakura remained consistent in that regard, and flipped town last time.

[Alchemist21]

You said you've played with Reinoe before. What do you think of his post?

[Alchemist21]

What were the unusual circumstances?

[Alchemist21]

What were the unusual circumstances?

Scum outnumbered town.

It was a fire and ice game and not a single scum was down due to some terrible scumhunting (from town and scum). Also the only person who was basically conf town had me as almost certainly townie at this point.

This sounds like he's aggressive when he feels like he's at a disadvantage. Now the question is whether he feels the town or the mafia would be at an advantage in this game.

The town has advantage in numbers and exclusive possession of power roles.

The mafia has advantage in knowing alignments and which roles are in the game.

So which would he feel is a greater advantage?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, do you have any reads?

I can't say I have any accurate reads since I'm unfamiliar with the players so something that means nothing might seem scummy to me, but so far:

I don't really like the Sisters' comment when they added that 3rd vote to the wagon. I don't know if this was a scum tell, them wanting a reaction out if Flum, or wanting a reaction out of Randomidget. A lot of people have already told me it's nothing though, so I'll take their word for it.

Random and Flum both have 1 scummy trait I can point out, but I think they're more likely to be town.

Flum's OMGUS vote appears to be meant as a joke, but he didn't seem bothered by the wagon on him. Still waiting for him to gain that computer access he mentioned.

Random never answered why he felt a third vote would be unusual for an early wagon, but he seems interested in helping figure out alignments.

I won't be sure about Reinoe unless he posts more. I don't like the logic to his post, but that might be his faulty thinking and not scum. Could be either way, but his logic sets up a potential WIFOM situation if he gets people to follow it, which would be dangerous if he is scum. If he's not the only player to try and predict the PR's in the game based on past games and say those three roles are definitely in, then the mafia could have easily switched a role or 2 and been able to make players with those roles look like fakeclaimers. But then other players could see the possibility of mafia doing this and lend credence to the other claims, and really just reverts the game to a state of any-3-roles-could-be-in.

KrystalBald pretended to not even know how the game works then tried to pass it off as a reaction test. This is either a confusion tactic that failed or an attempt to cover their own ignorance about the rules. Whether it was a confusion tactic or a reaction test, it probably would have been better to bait the entire player base instead of targeting a specific player. They oversold that reaction when I had potential suspicion on the sisters when I questioned about the hydra argument they had.

[Alchemist21]

What were the unusual circumstances?

Scum outnumbered town.

It was a fire and ice game and not a single scum was down due to some terrible scumhunting (from town and scum). Also the only person who was basically conf town had me as almost certainly townie at this point.

This sounds like he's aggressive when he feels like he's at a disadvantage. Now the question is whether he feels the town or the mafia would be at an advantage in this game.

The town has advantage in numbers and exclusive possession of power roles.

The mafia has advantage in knowing alignments and which roles are in the game.

So which would he feel is a greater advantage?

Why do you think Reino is only agressive when he feels at the disadvantage? How confident are you that this thought will lead to something useful?

It may not be only when he's at a disadvantage, it may be his playstyle, but randomidget said this was how he played under special circumstances, which was when scum outnumbered town. It would be most useful if someone more familiar with his playstyle could tell us more. If we don't have anybody like that, then we'll probably have to pressure him a bit to guage his reaction to see if he becomes even more aggressive. If his aggression noticeably goes up, then we can say he felt disadvantaged in the game and go from there. If it remains pretty constant, we can chalk it up to his playstyle.

[Alchemist21]

@Al: That line of reasoning is kinda garbage, lots of people, myself included, play differently in p much every game so I really doubt this scientific method thing you're trying here is gonna work out for you.

I see. I've played on smaller sites where it was pretty much the same people every game, and knowing how the other players play the game is a useful factor at some point or another each game, but I understand if things don't work that way here.

[Alchemist21]

KrystalBald pretended to not even know how the game works then tried to pass it off as a reaction test. This is either a confusion tactic that failed or an attempt to cover their own ignorance about the rules. Whether it was a confusion tactic or a reaction test, it probably would have been better to bait the entire player base instead of targeting a specific player. They oversold that reaction when I had potential suspicion on the sisters when I questioned about the hydra argument they had.

there was no passing it off as a reaction test... that's what nik was doing. if you really think that, where is your vote on us?


also.. what do you mean regarding the last sentence? what does the hydra argument have to do with it, iow?

xpost

what are you guys even talking about

L O L
So you're saying you didn't submit any choices?
When this guy flips scum I want 100% credit btw.

Can you just break down this whole comment for me?

Well if you were scum you were supposed to either lurk it out or go with what I was saying.
If you were town you were supposed to call me out on being full of shit.
tl;dr: reaction testing.

That's one of you calling it a reaction test. I didn't know if this was you being funny or dumb. My last statement about the hydra argument was you posting all those !'s and :0's when I started questioning the Sisters' history. Seemed like you were too eager for someone to start suspecting the sisters.

[Alchemist21]

I took your overuse of the emoticons as the part where you were claiming to be sarcastic.

[Alchemist21]

Ank seems pretty pro-town. He's interested in figuring out who the scum players are. I don't agree with Ank's vote on Clusk, but if Clusk posts his reads too and shows genuine interest in clearing out the scum then I think Ank will change his vote.

[Alchemist21]

Vote Krystal Bald

I don't like all the inconsistencies from KB. The reaction test and sarcasm claims just seem like really poor cop-outs.

[Alchemist21]

Most of them have already been pointed out to you in this thread, because they've mostly stemmed from you defending your "reaction test." You also said at the start of the game you were going to sign your posts, which you've never done, and there have been times when I've been confused by it, because one head says something, and the other head (I presume) says something different immediately afterwards. It gets really confusing to see the heads talking to themselves.

After seeing the players' views on hydras here, I think a lot of people would agree with me that you should start signing your posts.

[Alchemist21]

To clarify the first point in my post, I think it's inconsistent to say something is both sarcasm and a reaction test. Even rereading it I can't really see it as having a sarcastic tone.

[Alchemist21]

they never said they would sign posts. they just said "caps mean one head, non-caps is the other".
also, i don't like reaction tests.

That's pretty much the same thing since it's a way to ID the heads. Either way, they haven't done it.

[Alchemist21]

Ok, now I see it. When they said caps, I thought they meant all caps.

[Alchemist21]

Here Fluminator. This is the site where I do traditional mafia. I just started there so I'm learning how to play from there. Only have 1 game on it which is still ongoing, and lurked through some of their older games to try and pick up how they play.

http://www.millenniumforums.com/forumdi ... afia-Forum

This is another site I've been playing on for months, but the mafia games work very differently here because they're heavily focused on night actions instead of day phase posts.

http://otakucentral.org/forumdisplay.php?f=35

[Alchemist21]

Are you even reading our posts Al?

Yeah, but I was confused about what you two heads were saying because I couldn't tell the heads apart. Now that I see how you two are identifying yourselves I'll reread the posts and try to re-evaluate them.

[Alchemist21]

Read through some of Reinoe's past games and his style is consistent in each game. What are your current reads, Reinoe?
Also, I'm going to check out the scumhunting guides on your wiki. Which do you think would be the best to start out with?

Also read back through KB's posts now that I can tell them apart. I can kinda see the whole reaction test thing as being a bad joke that got out of hand, but I'm still going to keep an eye on their posts, and my vote since it's my strongest suspicion right now.

Flum is my best bet for town since he seems to be thinking things through and gauging reactions. Why are you leaning towards randomidget as scum?

[Alchemist21]

Anatole seems solely focused on KB right now. I would like to see his input on some of the other players.

[Alchemist21]

Please can people show why their votes are on me rather than stating something which I can't defend against as I genuinely don't understand it.
Fluminator I have a tendency to not do much Day 1. I said this earlier.
Aphix you didn't explain your vote.
Doublade your vote was OMGUS.
Ankamius you said you disliked part of one of my posts. Why did this make you think I was scum.
I think I have 4 votes on me at the moment,
.

You never explained your vote on Doublade and your vote on Aphix is pretty OMGUS.

That aphix vote you just pulled is scummy as hell, and you don't have to read much to figure out he had the same basic reason as everyone else on your wagon - you're not making much effort to scumhunt. You read people as town for doing that, but you're not doing much of it yourself, and you admitted to it. For that, I'm placing my vote on you.

Unvote
Vote randomidget

[Alchemist21]

Please can people show why their votes are on me rather than stating something which I can't defend against as I genuinely don't understand it.
Fluminator I have a tendency to not do much Day 1. I said this earlier.
Aphix you didn't explain your vote.
Doublade your vote was OMGUS.
Ankamius you said you disliked part of one of my posts. Why did this make you think I was scum.
I think I have 4 votes on me at the moment,
.

rm, if you thought doublade's vote on you was omgus. what made you choose to vote aphix over them?

I thought that aphix was trying to push a lynch on me on BS reasons while doublade was just OMGUSing

@alchemist. I did explain my vote on aphix. I think he is bandwagoning an easy lynch as scum. How is that not scumhunting. I have scumhunted more than gaiden, so surely he is a better place to put your vote? And were you paying no attention when I pointed out my meta? I swear no one is paying atttention to what I say outside of my list read.

why did you bring up gaiden here.

granted.. i am curious about him.. cause um he's not posting at all.

but you referring to content vs no content. gaiden is null

This was in response to alchemist voting me due to a lack of scumhunting. Gaiden was just an example.

The difference between you and Gaiden is that Gaiden isn't really active nor really playing the game (maybe he's busy and should ask to be replaced? I think we do have 1 in the queue.). You, on the other hand, have been more active and made attempts to play the game, but you've played it in a very scummy way.

Btw, I don't think Gaiden will be a good place for my vote, because I don't consider activity or lack of it as alignment indicative. I think it's better for the town to let the mod handle inactives and focus on the bigger fish to fry. I wouldn't suggest going after the inactives unless we run out of good candidates for scum.

Is that the reason no one is posting? Haha. I just don't have much time to post on Sundays. I certainly didn't miss much today though.

No post on Sundays. lol

[Alchemist21]

Majiffy, there's a pretty big wagon on randomidget. You should probably at least try to get a read on him.

[Alchemist21]

I have Alchemist and KB as town. I also think Fluminator is probably town (I liked the last sentence of 92) as well as Ank (his questioning and subsequent defense of Alchemist reads genuine).

vote: reinoe

I don't like anything reinoe is doing. all he's done so far is comment about roles and push a theory that one or more of Alchemist/Ank are scum. his entrance reads more like scum who isn't sure how to blend in with the thread, so he attempts to focus on setup spec to cover it up; it's also really bad that he calls out Alchemist for not having any town reads, while not having any himself.

I don't like Clusk either - he made one catchup post that hardly had anything in it and then disappeared again, and everything he's done so far has been very safe.

-Yuu

So i was talking with yuu (pieguy) about the game, and was wondering why Ankamius has a scumread on pie despite me trusting him to get an accurate read on the slot, but yuu said that him getting a scumread on her is... normal? And convinced me that Ankamius is most likely town and that his mistake was based on him changing his playstyle.
I disagree with yuu about reinoe tho.
I'm going to talk with my sister about AK and Alchemist later, randomiget is pinging me atm.

- Kuro.

2-Shot Vig, I vig'd Ankamius
- Kuro

Is this a serious claim? I quoted 2 posts where you had Ank as town on D1, and I never saw a post where you suddenly felt Ank was scum. If you are a vig, why did you shoot Ank?

Come to think of it, I don't think anyone other than Reinoe suspected Ank as scum, but I'm pretty sure if he was the vig he would have shot me before Ank. I'm really doubting the sisters' vig claim here, unless they can give me some good reason why they shot Ank.

Flum: Been lurking because I try to stay kept up with the thread but haven't said much because people were telling me my meta-based play style doesn't really work here.

[Alchemist21]

Did you even read my post where I showed my trajectory wrt Ankamius?
- Kuro

Quote it for me. All I saw was you asking a question about Ank not noticing something. You never outright state you were suspicious of Ank.

[Alchemist21]

So i was talking with yuu (pieguy) about the game, and was wondering why Ankamius has a scumread on pie despite me trusting him to get an accurate read on the slot

, but yuu said that him getting a scumread on her is... normal? And convinced me that Ankamius is most likely town

and that his mistake was based on him changing his playstyle.
I disagree with yuu about reinoe tho.
I'm going to talk with my sister about AK and Alchemist later, randomiget is pinging me atm.

- Kuro.

I guess Yuu changed his mind about Ank then? Because what you claim to have shot Ank for, your sister was saying that made Ank town. I would have thought the heads of a hydra would at least agree on who to vig before committing to it, unless of course you aren't a vig.

[Alchemist21]

Guys, I think the vote count on Matsuri already reached 6.

[Alchemist21]

Never mind. I missed an unvote.

[Alchemist21]

I still don't buy Matsumi's claim.

If there is a vig in the game, I wouldn't want them wasting a shot on a target that can be lynched today.

If there is no vig, we're needlessly allowing a scum to survive one more day.

Vote: Matsumi Sisters

For the record, I'm positive this brings it to L-1.

[Alchemist21]

i think i've noticed something important, but i want to make sure the rationale is correct.
alchemist, unvote just to humor me for a bit.

If you want me to unvote, you'll have to explain what you're planning first.

[Alchemist21]

And you can't do that without me unvoting?

[Alchemist21]

Sorry, but I believe the Sisters are scum, and I'm not unvoting just so a player who's been trolling the game can have more time to think.

[Alchemist21]

Does anyone actually think Matsumi is town? So far it seems like the only reasons people want to keep Matsumi alive is because of the vig claim. There is no evidence that the claim is true, and the reasoning for why Ank would have been vigged doesn't satisfy me.

Let's combine that with the fact that Random and Ank both had scumreads on Matsumi. 2 dead townies have a common scumread, and I think there's something to that. I really can't see why there are people still in the game who think Matsumi is scum but would rather risk a mislynch than lynch a player to which all evidence points as scum.

[Alchemist21]

notscience should probably look for at least a co-mod to help keep things running. I always hate ending a game early.

[Alchemist21]

This game is haunted.

[Alchemist21]

I wouldn't say the game is over yet, Flum. It is Sunday after all; we had a similar Sunday on D1.

[Alchemist21]

Or the Town PR's.

[Alchemist21]

Did they steal your sweet roll?

[Alchemist21]

Which list mod did you contact, and did they reply back?

[Alchemist21]

Ok. I sent a PM to Vel-Rahn. Waiting to see if he replies.

[Alchemist21]

Pretty Picture

You don't get any.

2.01

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Matsumi Sisters (5):

Anatole Kuragin, aphix, Alchemist21, reinoe, Fluminator

reinoe (2):

Majiffy, Matsumi Sisters

aphix (1):

Flames of Disaster

Majiffy (1):

Krystal Bald

Not Voting: scrambles, Doublade

Deadline

Deadline is October 15th at 12:00AM EST. This is in (expired on 2014-10-15 00:00:00)

Boring Mod notes

I saved the game I hope you're happy.
pieguyn will have a choice to play on his own or replace out.
Votes against metal sonic won't be counted because he doesn't exist in this game.
Please tell me if there's anything wrong with a VC.

Gaiden replaced scrambles back on D1. Thanks for the VC!

[Alchemist21]

I'm not seeing the aphix=scum either even after reading his ISO.

[Alchemist21]

prod received
also blah
i can't seem to make a decent strategy where we don't have an IC
it would pretty much only work if matsumi hits scum, otherwise, we would lynch them tomorrow.

Now here's an interesting post. What plan of yours would require an IC and be so reliant on Matsumi = scum?

[Alchemist21]

If there's a vig, what's to keep the mafia from targeting the same player we want dead if the target is town? If a vig is in the game, and it's not Matsumi, should the real vig target Matsumi or hold their fire? Targeting Matsumi is a sure scum kill in that case, but it's wasting a shot on scum that can be lynched. If they hit a different scum, it helps validate Matsumi's vig claim. If they don't shoot, the mafia is saved from a NK for the night.

The jailkeeper wouldn't be a bad idea, but would it be better to protect a confirmed townie rather than trying to stop the night kill? Actually, I can see this as opening a window for scum to fakeclaim jailkeeper later on since they can just say they protected the IC each night while the scum team never even targets the IC.

The tracker would be useless if Matsumi is scum and isn't lynched today, since the scumteam should just use Matsumi to perform the kill.

[Alchemist21]

If your goal in not lynching Matsumi today is to get more info, then you should probably vote Majiffy to pressure him instead of Reinoe since Reinoe may not even care to respond at this point.

[Alchemist21]

Majiffy voted reinoe for a shit reason d1, continued tunneling reinoe for the entire day, and ignored literally everything else going on in the game. All this until randomidget was lynched, when Majiffy puts on a HUGE show of not knowing why or how the guy got lynched. Looking through Majiffy's iso I found the following two quotes, which are about 24 hours apart:

VOTE: majiffy
Last few posts seem to be trying to deflect attention away from himself.

I'm starting to understand why there's a wagon on you.

Was there even a viable case given?

WHY DID WE NOT LYNCH REINOE.

HEADS WILL ROLL FOR THIS.

The first quote was pre-lynch, and the second was post-lynch. The second post is fake as fuck, considering he a) knew there was a wagon on rm, and b) apparently understood why it was there.
Then there's his vote on us, which is pretty shitty! I've been calling him scum all game, pretty much alone, and have voted him a few times. Saying that we're avoiding voting him in favour of anyone else is complete bullshit when I've already tried building a wagon on Majiffy to no avail.

I've been reading back through Majiffy's ISO to try and figure out why people were getting scumreads on him, but I never even noticed this duality until now. This is why people need to explain their reads instead of just telling people "read their ISO".

[Alchemist21]

Not completely, but it helps me better understand why people are suspecting him.

[Alchemist21]

So basically you want to lynch a now-inactive player instead of a horrible fake-claim.

[Alchemist21]

So you are giving them a pass after 5 months of joining?
i wish people were that kind to me.
I think i want you dead now Anatole
VOTE: Anatole Kuragin

Lol wtf? Did Gaiden just create a new form of OMGUS?

[Alchemist21]

Really? Since when did you want to go against Reino? Or are you trying to protect Majiffy?

Where are you getting the idea he's protecting Majiffy?

[Alchemist21]

Here's a series of posts I caught in Reinoe's ISO.

Gaiden's is anti-town at worst.

Ugh. I'm gonna have to agree with this after seeing post 500 and 503. Scum are never as sloppy and terrible as Gaiden.

VOTE: Matsumi


I'm just gonna troll for the rest of this DP because Alchemist, Matsumi, Majiffy are the obvious scum team.

btw, I'm really pissed that our Vig didn't shoot either Matsumi or Gaiden yesterday. You suck vig. Stop being lazy.

Reinoe says he thinks Gaiden is town on D1 and going into D2, but thinks Gaiden should have been vigged N1.

Vote: Reinoe

[Alchemist21]

Would the same player saying, "they're too scummy to be scum," be the same one pushing for them to get vigged?

[Alchemist21]

No, but someone in the same game as lots of other people who might suggest that would.

Ok. I still think it's illogical for someone to clear a player as town, but still want them vigged. Then again, it's Reinoe we're talking about.

Incidentally, if Majiffy turns out to be scum (which seems very likely at this point), there's a good chance Reinoe is town. Looked back and noticed Matsumi and Majiffy both went after Reinoe. If Matsumi and Majiffy are scum together, I don't think they'd both try to bus the 3rd scum.

Unvote
Vote Majiffy

[Alchemist21]

I'm so happy you guys, I would cry if my species were capable of such a feat.

Wait, what?

[Alchemist21]

Reinoe asked to be replaced back on D2. I even saw a post in the replacement queue that a replacement for him had been found. Why is he still posting here?

VOTE: Reinoe

[Alchemist21]

I hear scum sometimes like to fake a replace-out.

I'll also add that I disagree with his conclusion about Flum and myself. Just because we were on the 2 mislynch wagons doesn't automatically make us scum.

[Alchemist21]

Do you have a better idea Alc? Because I read that as a very weak move on your point there, not to mention a little defensive of flum as well ... What are your reads?

I could vote Dublade, but that's mainly by PoE. KB said they could prove they are town reading Gaiden, but they never posted on that. I'd still like to see that, KB.

You're not wrong to say it's a little defensive of Flum. Reinoe used the same reason to attack both of us. The reason wrongly scumreads 1 townie, and it's therefor entirely possible it wrongly reads Flum as well. Additionally, if Reinoe's scum, I don't think he'd run the gambit of attacking his scumbuddy when there are only 2 of them left.

I'd also like to point out that Reinoe wasn't on the rm wagon because he was on the Majiffy wagon that day. If he's going to base scumreads based on who voted for those 2 players, he's pretty much implicated himself as well.

[Alchemist21]

I'd also like to point out that Reinoe wasn't on the rm wagon because he was on the Majiffy wagon that day. If he's going to base scumreads based on who voted for those 2 players, he's pretty much implicated himself as well.

That's a hardcore misrep. I wasn't on the randomwagon because I analyzed it and concluded that randommidget was town. Previous to that analysis I had no read on midget. I could have gone either way before the analysis. Afterwards I attempted to derail the wagon but that scumfuck Matsumi "oops hammered" while I was at work.

The point isn't that you were off the rm wagon, it's that you were on the majiffy wagon D1 and D2 and now want to scumread others for being on that wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Honestly until his death, I don't remember any of his posts. With that in mind, I'm going to assume he died due to not being present in the game. Town being low key tend to get night killed.

Newbie was one of the more proactive players IMO. Not really low-key.

[Alchemist21]

lol @ 75 alive.

Flum, what are your current thoughts on the game?

[Alchemist21]

Heppy Birthday btw.
And what do you mean by 75 alive?

Thanks. Happy belated birthday to you as well.

Also notty had the night scene saying "with 75 alive it takes 3 to lynch". Lol

[Alchemist21]

If the scum team wanted to kill for those reasons, I think they would have killed you or Gaiden. Unless the two of you are actually the scum.

[Alchemist21]

Gaiden, do you still think Flum is scum, and if so then why?

[Alchemist21]

Why did you think you would be killed last night Krystal?
I predicted either Alchemist or Aphix would get killed. Reason being they would be the two least likely to get lynched. Although I thought it more likely Alchemist would get killed.

Hey Alchemist, would you have done anything differently this game had you been scum?

(Assuming your town.)

I don't really know how to answer that question. It's hard to answer when I've been playing the game with a town mindset, and that single change to the game alone could have drastically changed how the game played out. The only key difference I can think of is that I would have probably tried to draw out a PR claim.

I think me, Krystal, and Alchemist would all appreciate if Doublade and Gaiden gave us who they thought were scum and reasons. (More ideally a reads list) I have had a hard time getting a read on them due to lack of posting. This definitely can't wait any longer.

I support this. So far, looking at their ISO's, all I really saw from Doublade/Cal was the desire to lynch midget and Reinoe. (Did the other head ever post at all or has it been just Caledfwitch?). Gaiden's looks fishier. There are Matsumi interactions that don't look as null now as they did at first. I think I also see what looks like it could be a breadcrumb for a future jailkeeper fakeclaim.

Gaiden, you still haven't answered my question about Flum.

[Alchemist21]

shall we lynch that kuro?

woo, Kuro-chan has verified my town status.
time to dance.

Here are some D1 Matsumi - Gaiden interactions. Gaiden buddies Matsumi while Matsumi tries to pass off Gaiden as town.

i realize that i have the option of hammering a midget if that fake vc is right...
tempting...so very tempting

i just want to make sure i have enough time to properly think this through without fear of a hammer.

Expressed desire to hammer midget (which Matsumi later did) then when a wagon forms on Matsumi D2, Gaiden wants me to unvote so a hammer doesn't come down.

@mod: what happens if the jailkeeper self targets?

To me this looks like breadcrumbing for a future JK fakeclaim. I can't see any reason for why this would be asked, and the later-posted strategy of Gaiden's doesn't bring this idea up again.

You're logic is faulty.
Scum would keep me around for obvious reasons.
i'm not seeing the whole "safe kill" thing.

What "obvious reasons" do the scum have to keep you alive? Hell, if Matsumi was going to claim vig with you as town, I would think you or Doublade would have been killed. At least that could have been more believable than vigging Ank.

[Alchemist21]

I went back through your ISO and never saw a VT claim.

And you probably would "claim and self-target" as a JK if you were scum. That would be a reasonable explanation for why you weren't getting night-killed and why you weren't stopping any night kills.

VOTE: Gaiden

[Alchemist21]

[/unvote]

Ok, I'll humor Flum here since he's my top town read.

Why do you think it's KB and Doublade, flum?

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

[Alchemist21]

Flum, quite a few people started scumreading you during the latter half of D2, but I think it was mainly the tone of your posts. KB never outright states they scumread you, but it was implied with that Bill O'Reily jab which came some time after they said you were town. Second, if KB had townreads on Reinoe and Gaiden, then they could have felt those 2 were on to something when they were scumreading you. KB's vote on you during yesterday's phase came after Reinoe posted the reasons for his vote on you.

If KB agreed with the reasoning and is town, there wouldn't be much harm in putting you in L-2 at that point in their mind because

A) You were scum and the wagon was correct.

B) Both scum were off your wagon and a 2-vote quickhammer would be too obvious going into LyLo.

If the scum wanted you mislynched before Reinoe, they would have had to build a separate scumcase on you instead of following Reinoe, because then Reinoe would have been proven wrong if you flipped town, but they couldn't scumread him for it after you flipped because they followed the same logic that got you lynched.

I don't think they really felt worried by you voting Doublade. Their experience told them voting lurkers doesn't work. Calling it flailing was definitely a stretch though. There's a current site meta about not voting lurkers, so that was probably a factor.

The reaction to Majiffy is null to me. Your experience may tell you different, but sometimes it's hard for one person to imagine the alternate scenario. The associative reads can be hard to spot, especially when you have townies self voting. The reason the town started seeing Matsumi as scum was because of the hammer vote on midget. All the mislynches since then were self-hammered.

Ank, Reinoe, and Anatole all died with you in their scumreads as well. Looking at dead townies' scumreads can help, but for this game I think they'd be inaccurate. (I know I used a similar reason against Matsumi, but that was before the flips showed how inaccurate this town has been.)

If Doublade and Gaiden are the scumteam it makes Aphix the perfect choice for the Night Kill. Reinoe flipped town after pointing to you and I as a scumteam, while Aphix dies with a potential scumread on KB. All it would have taken would be for KB to suspect one of us, or one of us to suspect KB, enough to vote them and give the opportunity for a quickhammer. I built a scumcase on Gaiden and look what happened. An OMGUS reaction and still no reason for why he's scumreading us, other than Reinoe's stance.

Thoughts?

[Alchemist21]

Here's what the o'reilly thing means.

[Alchemist21]

Maybe if there were an actual case on me I could defend myself.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Doublade

This is a common scumread between Flum, KB, and myself. If KB isn't scum that comes to hammer me, then this would be the logical choice to vote.

[Alchemist21]

I'm pretty sure the scum team is Gaiden and Doublade.

They kill aphix knowing the kill looks bad for KB, then Cal comes and says it was a safe kill. Of course it was a safe kill for the scum, because it made a townie look bad and sets up a potential lylo mislynch.
Meanwhile Gaiden pushes Reinoe's stance on us to try to set up the potential mislynch on one of us.

The scumteam just wants all the townies pointing guns at each other, waiting for just one to pull the trigger. Have Cal or Gaiden built an actual scumcase on us? No, they just say we're scum because we're buddying, as if town players shouldn't try to work together to solve the game. They're hoping we sheep the logic of the dead townies while they get away with sheeping the logic themselves. When I see evidence for Gaiden scum and present it, Gaiden decides to OMGUS. Doublade joins the vote, hoping to make me look like the good scum choice by the idea that townies wouldn't bring someone to L-1 in lylo unless they were positive it was scum.

Don't you also think it's odd that that these contributed and posted so little until now? They're trying to give that one final mislynch an extra push so they can win.

[Alchemist21]

My last post intentionally left out some potential scum teams.
Alchemist, on a scale is 1 to 100, how confident are you the team is Gaiden and Caled?

95.

If KB is scum, he would have hammered.

That 5% is the chance you're scum with one of them, but if you were it wouldn't be with Gaiden, it would be with Cal. I have a stronger read on Gaiden, and I can't see any scum-pair association playing out the way it has other than Gaiden-Doublade.

[Alchemist21]

Also, alchemist, why the hell aren't you voting me?
You were so adamant earlier that I was scum and now you are voting Caled?
VOTE ME!

Pedit: i think it's dumb.
Pedit: x2 VOTE ME!

Doublade is a common scumread between Flum, KB, and myself. KB and Flum had that townread on you, but I'm sure you and cal are scum together. It doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in as long as we lynch both scum. Since all three of us are seeing Doublade scum, then that's the lynch we can all most easily agree on, because in lylo you want to be damn sure that you're lynching scum.

[Alchemist21]

Hmm, you're right. I didn't go 100% because people would have attacked me for tunnel vision. I didn't want people to attack for not considering alternate possibilities. My statement was geared toward I can't see you and Cal as scum, so the 5% is highly unlikely.

But you're right, you didn't hammer so you can't be scum. This pretty much reinforces my view of a Gaiden-Cal scumteam.

[Alchemist21]

Flum, I've been townreading you the whole game. Our working together since the last dayphase solidified that townread. When you asked me to put a percentage to my reads, my mind went into statistics logic mode, where they teach you that you are never 100% sure of your conclusions, and instead that you reach conclusions based on confidence intervals, 95% being the most common. My explanation for the 5% was weak, but only because I couldn't imagine any good scenario for it.

I should have put 100%, but enter the argument, "you can only be 100% sure of their alignments if you're scum."

[Alchemist21]

Can you change your avatar to this so I feel less guilty if you turn up innocent.

Vote: Alchemist

No. However, after this game I will feature you in a thread about times a user's post perfectly matched their avatar.

Fair enough?

[Alchemist21]

Come at me bro!

No, this.

[Alchemist21]

It'll go with Beck and his "Well I suggest we nip that in the bud" post.

[Alchemist21]

I don't want to wait for notscience so can you just tell me right now what you are?

Vanilla Town.

[Alchemist21]

Technically, your vote wasn't the hammer since you didn't bold it. It's not too late to change it.

[Alchemist21]

What was the point of that?

[Alchemist21]

What was the point of that?

Again, what were you trying to do?

[Alchemist21]

I know I haven't had that many beers yet.

[Alchemist21]

Lmao.

Sorry, but I'm only 20. It probably would be interesting though.

[Alchemist21]

Just one more year left though.

[Alchemist21]

No.

[Alchemist21]

Well shit.

[Alchemist21]

Nah, Flum was town MVP. I say KB was scum MVP. Sorry I screwed you over, KB.

[Alchemist21]

Scum PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=59176

[Alchemist21]

Oh well. If anyone has any questions, I can still answer them, right?

[Alchemist21]

As promised Flum, here's that thread I talked about before I got lynched. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59703

I have no idea what was up with KB's reaction test. It was never discussed in the PT.

Ank being a PR was dumb luck, Anatole was killed because Sakura thought she saw him hinting a PR guilty on him, and Newbie died because KB and myself thought we saw a PR hint from Flames when he was still in.

[Alchemist21]

RE: People saying I should have hammered Alc:
You don't think that would've been weird if I just hammered someone I was townreading in lylo? Like, I'd been defending him all game, it would've been kinda screwy if I'd just hammered him out of nowhere.

I think you could have done it after I slipped, and you still could have made Flum look guilty.