Open 514: Monks and Masons in Serona - GAME OVER

[Wisdom]

Hello!
Not gonna read 40 pages, so any summary is welcome.

[Wisdom]

Nachomollie's voting him too, so that sounds good.
Is Nachomollie town?

[Wisdom]

Bert, do you think I shouldn't sheep Sakura? What's your read on her?

pedit: yeah I noticed

[Wisdom]

HB is scum

Why?

[Wisdom]

So associative tells without flips?

[Wisdom]

So I assume you think Bert is scum with Marquis?

[Wisdom]

ns who is scum in this game?

[Wisdom]

That's one, who else?

[Wisdom]

So if you're certain about Saki why are you voting Bert? (@ns)

[Wisdom]

Because I'm waiting for him to ask me why I'm voting him

The fuck?
If your vote had such pressure purposes you ruined them by saying this?

[Wisdom]

Hey Marquis
Who is scum in this game?

[Wisdom]

Okay
Ive skimmed the ISOs.
My first reads, mainly based on gut, are those:

Town: {50, notscience, Bert, goodmorning, Saki}
Null-town: {Scott, Marquis}
Null-scum: {RachMarie, Meowmix}
Scum: {Sakura, Honey bee, Malakittens}

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sakura

Whoever thinks Sakura is town, now is a good time to explain why to me.

[Wisdom]

At least i hope this time your vote isnt based on being paranoid due to marathons.

Oh btw, you're wrong again, HOW SHOCKING!

^Are you saying these to someone you think is scum?
Really, Sakura?

[Wisdom]

ok ns, now vote Sakura because both your scumreads are town

[Wisdom]

So me saying that I Iso'd people (which you don't even know if I did) turned your relatively strong scumread on my slot into a townread that easily?
Nope, Sakura.

[Wisdom]

Why is Saki town

His role PM says so

[Wisdom]

Every single fucking time..?
Isn't that an exaggeration, given this is only our second game together?

[Wisdom]

As I said, gut. Something there probably gave me vibes.

[Wisdom]

So ok, Wisdom thinks i'm scum off gut, i figured he's still paranoid about Marathons.

I guess he's not scum then...

The fuck did I just read

btw I was talking about my read on Mala.

[Wisdom]

GM is scum you should vote her with me.

Nope.
Wanna vote Sakura?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom

You did a better job saving us then GM did :<

huh?

[Wisdom]

btw Sakura I just checked our marathons and the only one I misread you and "made you mad" was Lucky's that got cancelled.
So still an exaggeration.

[Wisdom]

btw Sakura I just checked our marathons and the only one I misread you and "made you mad" was Lucky's that got cancelled.
So still an exaggeration.

and even that doesn't count since I was not town.

[Wisdom]

Remember your Sakura scumread?
That's what you should get back to.

[Wisdom]

k
so despite what I said, I just finished reading the whole game.

My reads remain the same.

Sakura is an active scum who properly scumhunts for scum of the other faction. She also tries to gather towncred with every opportunity (such as teaching/coaching - 1005 is a good recent example). The slip goodmorning found is actually very important, and yeah it probably means she's mafia.

Malakittens is also scum. First of all, she posts less frequently than she does as town - ironically something she tries to accuse goodmorning of. Then most of her posts are fluffy, nonsensical that she later excuses as cranky, or general statements without many commitments and without really participating in discussions. 653 particularly gave me mad scumvibes - "if he's scum he's harmful to his scumteam and he should die" - what? Why the hell would town care about that? Town want to lynch scum because they are..., you know, scum. Not because they're not useful to their scum team. Really weird, as is her call for a policy lynch out of nowhere. Then her random jump to goodmorning out of nowhere, for meta reasons and nothing to do with the game.

Honey bee is also scum. Those that stated that her play looks like the Cracking Idea that she was scum in were right - it does remind me of that play (I followed that game). She focuses on one person and practically ignores the rest of the game (after this gets pointed out she goes on to comment on goodmorning too), and the only other thing she does is try to dispel the suspicion on her with self-meta and whatnot. Also that unvote in 964 was just terrible.

RachMarie could potentially be scum too, not for her inactivity (she's inactive everywhere), not for not reading the setup (I don't really think Rach would attempt faking something like that), but for her L-2 vote and the wording she used (and that facepalm smiley gives me bad vibes for some reason) - Rach usually is scared of fast wagons and I find it unlikely she would not realize what her vote is doing. Not liking all the "please no more selfvotes" afterwards either, and neither her tunnel on my predecessor - I think she usually does not go after newbies that easily. Still, this read includes some speculation on my part, so I can't say I'm sure about Rach.

Scott and Meowmix have both posted fuckall, however Scott's post gives me some kind of townvibes (I like his reads on Marquis and my predecessor), while Meowmix's doesn't.

Marquis is not scum. He's a trolling, carefree townie, who doesn't care about anything and post whatever he wants whenever he wants. Stop allowing scum to use him as lynchbait.

goodmorning is not scum. I disagree with notscience that she did not help the game progress - her reads are good, and the Sakura mafiaslip she spotted is most likely accurate.

I am completely certain that Nachomollie (aka 50), Bert, notscience and Saki are town, and I'll be honestly surprised if I'm wrong on any of them. Saki notably has a playstyle that reminds me very much of mine (such as wanting to withheld townreads, posting a lot, and other stuff), and I'm quite sure that's town.

[Wisdom]

And really, Saki, the Rach vote is the only important thing regarding that p2 wagon. The other votes on it were just wagoning to see reactions (including the selfvote)

[Wisdom]

such as wanting to withheld townreads

glaring contradiction

Nah, I withheld townreads in the beginning of games, in fear of giving scum things to sheep. Now there's no reason to do so, it's much better to find the town and work together.

[Wisdom]

Sakura if you're town then you should stop voting town yourself.

[Wisdom]

So until your previous post you preach about how I misread town and you even link to me saying it in a postgame, yet now I'm suddenly scum?
Kay Sakura, thanks for strengthening my read.

[Wisdom]

Neh. I did want to see what you'd do, but it definitely wasn't a "trap".

[Wisdom]

Those are your own creations - I simply told you you're also guilty of voting town.

[Wisdom]

No matter what you think, he's town.

[Wisdom]

I trust my reads.

[Wisdom]

I'm not trying to get your vote off anyone. I'm simply showing you how your "you're voting town" is crap, because anyone can argue that anyone is doing it.
tl;dr: you're still scum.

[Wisdom]

Nah ergo I've figured it out already.
Tip: Even if I was scum I wouldn't know your alignment.

[Wisdom]

If I just wanted to lynch anyone, there are many people I could push and lynch much easier, don't you think?
It's pretty clear you're not just *anyone*. You're scum.

[Wisdom]

There are no traps, stop misrepping.

[Wisdom]

That's like taking a random post of yours, naming it a scumslip, then go "you can't prove it isn't a scumslip". The fact you decide to name my posts "traps" don't make them traps. It pretty obviously was my way of saying that your "you're voting town" was bullshit.
(@sakura)

[Wisdom]

I don't think she'd lie about verifiable information.

She didn't lie, she exaggerated. We only have one completed game together in which we both scumread each other and were both town. In marathons however I only hardtunneled on her one time and I was not town.

[Wisdom]

Sure it's BS, and your post is also BS, it's basically "If you're town take your vote off Marquis" which is a trap in my eyes.

Nope, it's basically "you're also voting town", which shows that anyone can say this because not everyone has the same reads. So basically your "you're voting town" meant nothing to me because I don't think you're town.
But sure keep talking about traps

[Wisdom]

I exagerated, so what, does that make me scum?
You also hardtunneld me on Micro 198 with the reasoning "You're scum" , to the point of making me self-hammer as town out of frustration and rage, tho I've promised myself to not ever self-vote again...
And I still say your post was a trap, your case on me is relying on me trying to get town cred, so how does your post not look like a trap? you could easily just say either answer was done for town cred, so it's effectively a trap.

Sakura, you were townreading me until that post. The fact you choose to look at this only with a mindset of me being scum is off.

[Wisdom]

And you can't see why you pushing on her again when she's town makes her paranoid?

Yes, but I can also see how she can use that to her defence as scum.

[Wisdom]

My townreads can flip when they try to lynch me with a trap that can only come from scum.

Again, the fact you're not willing to accept the much simplier idea of me posting that as town is weird, given you were townreading me.

[Wisdom]

I think that Wisdom's town. Mollie disagrees.

If/when people start calling Wisdom out as scummy, the more comfortable I will get with having Wisdom as a townread.

<3

Paranoid people everywhere

[Wisdom]

What am i supposed to do when you give me a death or death question?

You

chose

to interpret it that way, and that choice is what's weird.
And another thing that's scummy in that is that you thought about how you will appear in each case - which isn't what town would typically think. If you went through the thought process of "if I answer this I will seem scummy, if I do this I'll still seem scummy", you're most likely scum.

[Wisdom]

50 I'm not sure on, but I have a light scumread on them at this point.

huh? why?

[Wisdom]

Bert nothing's wrong with gut. It's just usually not enough to make others see what you see.

[Wisdom]

It's funny how everyone that has defended me is a scum read for GM.

I don't like this kind of posts. Stop implying things and clearly state what you mean and what you think it means.

[Wisdom]

Yeah sure, that's your motive.

[Wisdom]

You seriously expect me to believe that you care about a newbie not getting WotC'd. Not that you went for towncred or buddying or anything.
Yeah, sure.

[Wisdom]

If she actually replaced out, I'd believe she was town.
Since she didn't, I don't see why that couldn't have been an act, really.

[Wisdom]

Anyway..

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

[Wisdom]

It really seems forced to me that she wants to blacklist me just because of 2 games (and in this one she doesn't even know if I'm town). I could really see that as an act (and yes I've seen scum trying to fake a replace out like that before)

[Wisdom]

She could just cancel the replace out and go "no one person wont make me replace out" or something even if you didn't beg her.

I could lynch HB too but I prefer Mala.

[Wisdom]

I do not see how you could possibly read that as "my vote's not going anywhere". I've said why Mala is scum and why Honey Bee is scum, I'm more confident in Mala scum, and thus I'd prefer to lynch Mala. Now if people don't want to lynch Mala and prefer to lynch Honey Bee, I'll prolly join.

[Wisdom]

(also I was answering to "why not hb"(1189) if that wasn't obvious)

[Wisdom]

What the fuck did you do wisdom

Nothing to warrant such an overreaction, that's why I think there's a good chance it was forced.

[Wisdom]

Which means she could easily emulate that as scum.

pedit: yeah I do, Nacho. But that doesn't mean it's always town. Sec, I'll show you an example of scum doing this exact thing.

[Wisdom]

Maestro's ISO in Masons and Mafia
In that game, I started hardtunneling on him in 939, then he went "omg Wisdom is tunneling on me now he is never going to stop tunneling" (his 969 for example) and kept spamming "I will replace out". According to that game's mod's post, he asked not to be replaced despite what was said. He did replace out in the end because things turned out that way, but the point is that what he was doing was trying to use frustration from my tunneling on him to his favor by threatening he will replace out. Which was unwarranted since he, like Sakura here, had only one other game with me (and he was scum in it). He was indeed scum.

So yeah, I could see Sakura doing this. Not going to lynch her for this now, but I'm not seeing it as a towntell.

Now I'd like people to vote Mala.

[Wisdom]

So I'm blacklisted because I should somehow believe that an obvious towncred-hunting move was because you actually care about Saki's future on the site?

[Wisdom]

Because the reception in tunnels are terrible

My tunnels can be pretty accurate sometimes, so it's a bad idea to just dismiss them like that. See the game I linked for example.
Also, you're still voting Sakura, the person that you're claiming I'm wrongly tunneling on, so what are you talking about?
Wanna vote Mala?

[Wisdom]

nah goodmorning, this is obvtown Nacho. mollie I can't read that good lately, but for Nacho I'm sure.

[Wisdom]

Okay you have a point about the blacklisting, Nacho, and it's part of the reason I'm not insisting. It's too heavy to fake, indeed. But I'll stand by what I said that game - threatening to replace out without actually replacing out is not a towntell and should not ever be treated as such. I'm backing off only because of the blacklisting mention, nothing else.

Now can we vote Mala?

[Wisdom]

With Honey Bee my issue is I don't know her meta. Her play does look like her scum play in Cracking Idea but there is a possibility this is just the way she plays regardless of alignment. So I'm less confident to lynch her over Mala. Mala is just scum, however, I don't see how anyone can think she's town this game.

[Wisdom]

Can't say I like the popularity her wagon has either.

[Wisdom]

Regardless, it appears that bee is the only one of my scumreads with a shot at being lynched today,

your Mala wagon is going nowhere for now

Vote Mala with me and you'll see if it goes nowhere or not.

[Wisdom]

Did you say the same about NN or Marquis's wagons?

Since both of these wagons were on town, it's a given there were scum on those too, yes.

[Wisdom]

So posting fluff is a scum tell?

When you're doing absolutely nothing else, yes.
What are your current scumreads? Why?

[Wisdom]

Sakura, is Mala town? Why?

[Wisdom]

no Bert.

@Sakura
It's not just the activity. It's her lack of content, her fluff, her lack of stances. She only posts general stuff and avoids doing anything substantial. Read her ISO.

[Wisdom]

@Bert: For a start, I already have seen her as Scum in N1379, which I continued to follow after my death. I also checked out two town games of hers (M198 and N1383) and one other Scum game (N1371). Her behaviour in this game has been most similar to her behaviour in 1371, imo.

^Sakura, did you miss this?

[Wisdom]

Bert don't talk about ongoing games even if it's just to mention them.

[Wisdom]

{Wisdom, 50, notscience, Bert, Saki, goodmorning}
What needs to happen is everyone in this block get a firm townread on everyone else in this block.
There are no scum in there.

(And I'd add Marquis too in there but I won't just yet)

[Wisdom]

I don't like NS and Marq. I don't have a town read on NS.

This is obviously town-notscience. What exactly suggests otherwise to you?

The posting spree between Saki / Saku read town / town. They wouldn't shut up when numerous people asked them too and other people avoided the thread during that time period - which makes me think it was town / town.

And why exactly wouldn't scum do the same?

So you're trying to control the town. Good for you.

Funny interpretation but no. I'm forming a town block.

[Wisdom]

There probably is one in it.

Okay.
This is why I'm asking you to sort these people out. If I'm wrong about someone, you'll help me realize it in the process.

[Wisdom]

jesus fucking christ gm should be powerlynched like a mofo

thats not how "Mala" is spelled

[Wisdom]

You're not even a solid town read for half the players, but you want to sit here and start a town block so you can control where the votes are going. Maliupation at the finest.

That's why I'm telling them to sort me out. They're town and I'm town. I'm not going to manipulate them, we're going to work together.

[Wisdom]

Scum probably coasted while they were fighting so they could tear each other apart.

Except there are two scumteams.
So it could easily be Scum A vs town while Scum B coasted.
Baaad reason to townread people off.

[Wisdom]

anyone who says otherwise about Mollie/Nacho makes me really suspicious

cmon. Only the fact that she wants to antagonize Nacho should prove she's not scum. Scum avoid doing that.
She's genuinely paranoid about him, which may be weird because he seems obvtown to us, but given the games they have it's not THAT weird.

[Wisdom]

goodmorning is town, mollie.

Now vote Mala.

[Wisdom]

Wow Ffuck if people are going to keep ninja'ing me with posts I'm going to bed

Look at this lovely excuse to stop posting!
I'm quite sure I've seen scum using something similar before.
And once again she did nothing with her posts.

Lynch this ffs

[Wisdom]

Well let's get this over with.
GM's meta case on me is based off a game that happened like 3 months ago or so and it was my first scum game in which i didnt even know what do do and my partner forgot about me.
GM's meta case on Nacho is BS too...
She's using biased meta info to achieve a mislynch.
VOTE: GM

Even if we assume that her cases are "bad" or "biased".
Have you never seen town make such cases?
Also, is she voting you or Nacho?

[Wisdom]

Also, is she voting you or Nacho?

She's not. This makes it worse.

Nope. She was voting Sakura till recently and on you she's just paranoid. She's still voting her scumreads.

[Wisdom]

lol

Vote Mala

[Wisdom]

Why

Because she's scum.
Read her ISO.

[Wisdom]

mollie stop being stupid. goodmorning is town, Mala is scum.

[Wisdom]

mollie youre being stupid.
Why is goodmorning scum?
Why is Mala town?

[Wisdom]

Saki vote Mala

[Wisdom]

ns is town, Saki.
mollie stop being fucking stupid and answer my questions.


pedit: no reasoning? Are you fucking kidding me?

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile Mala continues fluffposting

[Wisdom]

ns has a playstyle that's generally considered scummy. I scumread the hell out of him in our first game too. But I've learned the difference now. This is town ns. He has done things (like his selfvote to test reactions, and other stuff) he wouldn't do as scum.

Look at Mala. Read her ISO. How can anyone think she's town?

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile Mala continues fluffposting

oh the irony.

What irony?

[Wisdom]

I honestly feel that people refuse to see how scummy Mala is just because I keep insisting
but too late now

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile Mala continues fluffposting

oh the irony.

What irony?

you call him out for fluffposting in a fluffpost

jeesh i have to explain this...

The fuck? How the hell is my post a fluffpost? I have explained one million times how Mala's fluffing and lack of content is a scumtell.

[Wisdom]

Nacho have I given reasoning on why Mala is scum, yes or no?

[Wisdom]

I honestly feel that people refuse to see how scummy Mala is just because I keep insisting
but too late now

Herp derp.

Well you first had me scum on gut.

Then you kept telling people to read my ISO - since it's fluffy.

You read ISO's prior to giving out scum reads, so why did you not bring up the fluff then, but instead you said 'gut'.

Fluffiness is not a scum tell.

I'm hunting, tyvm.

omfg
Look at this. She posts just to dispel the suspicion.

YES ITS A SCUMTELL, YOURE STILL DOING NOTHING.

[Wisdom]

Vote: Goodmorning

Actually, Mollie's right about GM.

I'm fine with GM or Mala.

Will someone explain to me why goodmorning is scum?
mollie obviously cannot, can you do it?

[Wisdom]

Saki, ns is town goddamnit

[Wisdom]

And as for Marquis, I told you. This is not scum. This is carefree town not giving a shit. There's a difference, learn it.

[Wisdom]

ns has a playstyle that's generally considered scummy. I scumread the hell out of him in our first game too. But I've learned the difference now. This is town ns. He has done things (like his selfvote to test reactions, and other stuff) he wouldn't do as scum.

Look at Mala. Read her ISO. How can anyone think she's town?

^
Saki I answered to you here.
I think you don't understand what meta means, so just in case; meta is when you use past games with people to see changes or similarities in their behavior with those games, where you know what role they had.

[Wisdom]

The fuck?

[Wisdom]

mollie, Bert, whoever the fuck is voting goodmorning
I'm waiting to hear why goodmorning is scum
And why she's a better lynch than obvscum Mala.

[Wisdom]

Fucking game

Bert I fucking answered to you. goodmorning does not have enough games with Nacho to be able to tell obvtown Nacho like we do. It's NORMAL for her to get paranoid. Scum would not try and antagonize Nacho - almost always scum try to buddy Nacho and have him make the town lynch the wrong targets. Even more so in this game that scum need to find the other scum.

Saki I also answered to you. ns is town due to meta. He has done things that he doesn't do as scum. I know him, I know his game, I can tell. He's not scum.

Why the fucking hell don't you guys vote Mala?

[Wisdom]

Sakura, are you still scumreading me? I thought you wanted to replace out because you couldn't handle my tunneling? What the hell?

[Wisdom]

'justify active lurking from town perspective'
active lurking in this game doesn't apply to ns only
gogo answer that

Active lurking mainly applies to Mala.
ns and Marquis kind of do it too, but in both cases it's different. ns sometimes does try to move the game forward - an example being his selfvote on page2 for reactions - and Marquis is pretty obviously just a carefree guy who doesn't take this seriously and just does whatever he wants. I'm less certain about Marquis being town, as this is something that can be done by good scum, but ns is clearly town.

[Wisdom]

What do you think, and yes i wanted to replace out because you were deathtunneling on a townie.

Which means you think I am town. It makes no sense to want to replace out/ blacklist me because I am scum deathtunneling on people.

[Wisdom]

Scum deathtunnel but it's completely normal as it's a scumtactic and it's nonsense to want to blacklist people for that. If you want to blacklist me it means that you think I am retarded town who deathtunnels.

[Wisdom]

Scum deathtunnel but it's completely normal as it's a scumtactic and it's nonsense to want to blacklist people for that. If you want to blacklist me it means that

you think I am retarded town who deathtunnels

.

Exactly

Good.
So what's with you calling me scum with goodmorning?

[Wisdom]

Look at that.
Malakittens is constantly around to try and diffuse the accusations on her, and now even try to buddy Nachomollie, but never posts anything productive.

[Wisdom]

Sakura that doesn't make sense, and that doesn't help you very much. You clearly showed you think I'm town with that action, taking it back now is a huge hypocrisy.

[Wisdom]

What are the productive things you posted, Mala?

[Wisdom]

1) It's not hypocrisy
2) Hypocrisy is not a scum tell.

It is. A townie who was so annoyed that another townie hardtunneled on them so much to the point of wanting to replace out and even blacklist them, cannot suddenly flip like that and believe that the person actually is scum. The normal thought process should have been thinking I am scum from the beginning (you did think my slot was scum anyway), and support I am scum from then. The fact you instantly realized I am town was fishy, but being a hypocrite now and stating you think I am scum after wanting to blacklist me for being hardtunneling town is really terrible.

[Wisdom]

Why GM is town. I already made my meta case on her. You didn't bother with that little gem.

Seriously? I don't remember seeing you doing anything now that everyone was voting goodmorning. If you strongly thought she's town you wouldn't let people put her at L-3 or whatever she got to that easily. Plus, you would try to talk to mollie about that. Do you do anything? No.

I pressured Marquis in the beginning because of his fail vote and post right in the beginning. Face it - it was scummy as hell.

Not really, no.

I'm still waiting for people to freaking post so I can reads on them, but you guys making 7-10 more pages is not even attractive to people. So I'm not surprised people are running away screaming.

I want more from Scott, Rach and MeowMix. I want to see Marquis and Notscience post something of usefulness. I want HoneyBee to post more things so I can get a better read on her too. Is any of the above too much to ask?

Marquis, ns and Honeybee have posted enough to be able to be read. Waiting for the others is no excuse to avoid posting content. There are plenty of things happening already which you can comment on. You are not like this when you're town, you get involved. You don't now.

[Wisdom]

So ok let's lynch GM now, kay?

We're not going to lynch town, Sakura. You're looking for cred all game, now's the time to gain it by voting scum instead.

[Wisdom]

Marquis, things are simple.

Mala is scum. Honey bee is scum. Sakura is probably scum, and the last scum is in {Rach, Meowmix}.
Now you should vote Mala.

[Wisdom]

3 replacements and Scott will most likely need one too from the looks of things...

@Rach
I didn't say I'm

always

right. But sometimes I am.
What's your read on Mala?

[Wisdom]

I have reads on Marquis and NS they are both scummy to me

Why are they scummy?
Why aren't you voting them?

[Wisdom]

BTW I voted for Noc a LONG time ago when I was frustrated with his nonsense...

I think that you usually can spot newbtown - why not this time?

[Wisdom]

It's def. Wisdom's fault, he always brags about making half the playerbase replace out of the games he's in.

In case that's serious - I only said that one time and I was kidding. I don't think that my play makes people replace out, and if it does, those people should go play something they can handle instead of mafia.

[Wisdom]

Saki since you're here

i find RM rather townie

Why?

[Wisdom]

a) is an interesting point; sometimes scum do buddy me and sheep my reads because if I tunnel on them they know they're most likely dead. I have not played with Rach-scum however, so I don't know if she would do that.

on b) - who are you sheeping again?

[Wisdom]

Meta is only reliable through personal experience imo. Reading games you aren't part of doesn't really help - you just get the impression you want to get.

Why the leaning town read on Mala?

[Wisdom]

BTW I voted for Noc a LONG time ago when I was frustrated with his nonsense...

I think that you usually can spot newbtown - why not this time?

Answer this too please

[Wisdom]

She seems a bit like the town Mala I have seen in other games so I need a bit more time to be sure.

Would you disagree that town Mala usually contributes and does something with her posts instead of active lurking like she's been doing here?

[Wisdom]

Try again, Bert is town.

[Wisdom]

Actually scratch that.
I realize that I might be wrong about Bert.

[Wisdom]

Bert switched to Malakittens and his posts towards her give the impression that he's almost as tunneled as me on her - however he had no problems switching to goodmorning twice.

I get the impression he's just sheeping/buddying people - especially 50 and me. In hindsight, I don't like how he kept saying that my reads are spot on and correct and awesome and stuff. This is exactly what I was talking about when I was saying that scum most of the time buddy me and sheep my reads.

He's back to null, possible scum actually.

[Wisdom]

Also I'm feeling better about both Rach and DrCirno's slot

[Wisdom]

How the hell is my flip scummy? I stood there and reconsidered exactly because someone announced a scumread on you. I was like "wtf why there are people who scumread Bert" and then I realized I'm not that confident you're town.

[Wisdom]

Bert, you just gave Wisdom a free pass to death tunnel you for hypocrisy in 1 single post, have fun!

Nah, Bert has stated before that he finds me town if I am scummy and vice versa.
This could easily be a part of his scheme to buddy me though.

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom: because DrCirno doesn't know me, so obviously he/she is going to have a scumread on me. I have a 50% chance in my history of getting lynched D1. That isn't an accident or a fluke.

So you're saying you've been scummy this game?

[Wisdom]

He just said in a single post that you're town AND scum.

He said I did something that he considers scummy and therefore thinks I'm town (read 1584 again)

[Wisdom]

Noctan has replaced out and I'm in his slot btw, Cirno.

[Wisdom]

I knew Bert was a mason or a monk when he started talking about the subject. It's very likely though that he brought it up exactly because he's scum and he wanted to appear clueless about it when his role would be revealed. Could explain why he prematurely claimed as well.

[Wisdom]

We do have a piece of info however;
Bert is not scum with goodmorning.
There's no way he'd claim masons with her - if there's a counterclaim and Bert flips scum, goodmorning gets incriminated.
My guess right now is that the claim is legit, Bert is wolf and goodmorning is town.

[Wisdom]

Bert is wolf and goodmorning is town.

if that's based on his avi
wisdom i dunno what do say

wat

VOTE: Bert

[Wisdom]

ns is it true?

[Wisdom]

ok

@Bert
You were telling my predecessor how he was self-defeatist and he wasn't fighting against his wagon, right? Why are you doing it yourself now?

[Wisdom]

Saki and ns are not scum, Sakura. Saki was trolling.

And no, we're not lynching goodmorning.

[Wisdom]

Whatever you wanna call it.

I'll note however how easily Sakura changed from Bert to goodmorning just because mollie started shouting - she wants to lynch either to clear the other, it should make no difference to her, but she changed.

[Wisdom]

GM being wolf means bert is conf.town.

That part is correct. Also, Bert being wolf means GM conftown. You said that yourself earlier - why the change from Bert to GM?

[Wisdom]

note that 50SOP is probably the most highly regarded player in this game therefore people would obviously consider their opinion with weight

When it's Nacho posting, yes.
When it's mollie, I'd advise against it.

[Wisdom]

Why WK GM?

Because I'm confident she's town, which is not exactly a secret.

[Wisdom]

why don't we entertain the fact that they could be both town?

are we seriously lynching between Bert and gm in the hopes that one flips scum

No, that's stupid to do and it's one more reason Sakura is probably scum.
I'm lynching Bert because his premature claim makes sense with what I thought his earlier mason questions meant - he wanted to appear clueless when his role would be revealed - and make goodmorning (who he knew town) townread him as well. Also, his giving up attitude makes no sense given that he was the one who kept telling my predecessor not to give up and not be a self-defeatist. Finally, all I said about how he buddies me and 50 and sheeps my reads (calling them on the spot, awesome, etc)

[Wisdom]

spot on*

[Wisdom]

Yeah, you have a point there.
It's guaranteed they're not both wolves and neither is mafia, so they can wolfhunt each other.
It's better not to lynch among them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

[Wisdom]

Plus every other player has more chances of being scum (since they could be either mafia or wolves) while the masons are certainly not mafia.

Yeah.

Back to Mala.

Votes on Mala.

pedit: I didn't think it through much, nope.

[Wisdom]

What if... they arent Masons but are actually both Wolves?!

DUN DUN DUN PLOT TWIST!

As I already answered you - there's no way scum will claim masons with their buddy. If they're counterclaimed and one of them flips, the other is doomed.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I think I know what you mean.

[Wisdom]

I think it's better not said; unless you mean something else.

[Wisdom]

lol
You obviously don't know me yet

[Wisdom]

I'm not going to say something that might give scum ideas, Saki.

[Wisdom]

note that 50SOP is probably the most highly regarded player in this game therefore people would obviously consider their opinion with weight

When it's Nacho posting, yes.
When it's mollie, I'd advise against it.

^definitely gm's partner

Agreed, So let's lynch GM and confirm Bert as town and Wisdom as wolf then.

^This is the same person who thought I'm town who deathtunnels and wanted to blacklist me

[Wisdom]

note that 50SOP is probably the most highly regarded player in this game therefore people would obviously consider their opinion with weight

When it's Nacho posting, yes.
When it's mollie, I'd advise against it.

^definitely gm's partner

*laughs*
so i guess this game is split between
people who think wis is dense and people who think he isnt

All my games are like that ^^ sorry for stealing the spotlight

[Wisdom]

You are already blacklisted, i'm only staying in this game with you because the players wanted to play with me.

That's completely unrelated to what I said and further proves you're scum.

[Wisdom]

Saki I have explained how it is indicative.

When you get so frustrated that someone is deathtunneling you it means you think that person is town. You cannot suddenly support they're scum afterwards, much less be so confident about it.

[Wisdom]

Mala/Honey Bee/Sakura/Bert

game solved

[Wisdom]

Wisdom is wearing glasses with Sakura-scum lens
Sakura is wearing glasses with Wisdom-scum lens

that is all

I also have tons of Mala-scum lenses for sale. Actually, I'll give them for free! Come take em!

[Wisdom]

Given that you scumread me only for my WKing, it seems that you think that scum always do it, not usually.

[Wisdom]

deathtunneling town (me)

Is that a scumtell?

[Wisdom]

Saki.
Without any glasses.
This is what has happened:

-Sakura scumreads my slot.
-I replace in.
-Sakura changes her read on the slot and townreads me.
-I tunnel on Sakura.
-She continues townreading me (and specifically states so).
-She gets so frustrated she wants to replace out and blacklist me.
-She stays in the game.
-Then she suddenly scumreads me.
-She's confident about her scumread.

Tell me, is that normal for town?

[Wisdom]

Here's the thing though

Why would mafia go through all the trouble to tear everyone apart

Wouldn't it be safer to WK the fuck out of people

because town moves in herds. it is town's job to find each other and it is scum's job to sow confusion and keep that from happening. I explained this in another game do you want a link

You mean like how for the first time ever I decided to try and make a townblock and you all kept scumreading each other and ignored me?

[Wisdom]

Well I don't see it as normal. She was fucking frustrated because of my tunnel yet she didn't scumread me. And THEN she decides to scumread me.

[Wisdom]

Maybe i should have replaced out...
I'm just gonna add Wisdom to foe list so i dont have to read his posts...

Honestly, look at this.
If she thought I'm scum, she would blame it all on my scum motivation and understand it's normal.
Yet she doesn't, she just thinks I'm annoying, which means she thinks I'm town.

[Wisdom]

Well I don't see it as normal. She was fucking frustrated because of my tunnel yet she didn't scumread me. And THEN she decides to scumread me.

if i hate someone i scumread them

Well that's stupid.

[Wisdom]

Except Sakura is not even being voted, so being self-defeatist is unwarranted. It's just an act.

[Wisdom]

I don't hate Sakura (or anyone). I just think she's scum.

But since you mentioned that someone can scumread people out of hate, and I guess it could happen even if I find it stupid, I'll suggest one thing to Sakura:

If she's town, she should replace out.
If you hate people, you should not play with them. You will only hurt the game.

[Wisdom]

This is not the time to be calling for a policy lynch on Sakura.

Where the fuck did you see such a thing?
I'll never PL anyone.

[Wisdom]

Nope. I'm against any kind of policy lynching. I will not lynch Sakura if she doesn't replace out - I'm just saying that this is the best thing to do if she's town and all she has said about me were genuine. But for the record, I don't believe they were.

[Wisdom]

Why mollie? Because after you lost to me you decided to scumread me in every game? Sure, if that's a reason to blacklist me because you can't read me anymore, go right ahead.

[Wisdom]

Nope. I'm against any kind of policy lynching. I will not lynch Sakura if she doesn't replace out - I'm just saying that this is the best thing to do if she's town and all she has said about me were genuine. But for the record, I don't believe they were.

180 much

How the fuck is that an 180?

[Wisdom]

Im guessing Wisdom's strategy is to force people into replacing out due to frustration then he can just play with newbies that he can manipulate easily

Yeah, that must be it.
Sakura, really, if you're town and you're saying these things... I have no comments.

[Wisdom]

Yes I think your game is fucking bad if you're going to tunnel on me in every fucking game when I'm fucking obviously town, mollie.

[Wisdom]

Are you a daycop, mollie? No? Then how the fuck do you know that she is most definitely scum? Am I not allowed to have different reads than you? Have your reads been 100% accurate always? Do you consider the possibility you're wrong?

I have to be scum because I have a different read than you? I have to be scum because I cannot stand you reading me wrong all the time when I'm certain you're town?

Okay, mollie. You'll have to blacklist me, because I'm not scum.

[Wisdom]

@mod
You have Meowmix and DrCirno twice

[Wisdom]

@mod
You have Meowmix and DrCirno twice

Also you have me voting Malakittens twice

both fixed, thanks. nao moar coffee - f

[Wisdom]

Well I'm not, so deal with it.

[Wisdom]

Sigh. I'll try to correct what I did because I can see how you found it offensive.

@everyone
I said something like "Trust only Nacho, don't trust mollie" in a post. Don't take that too seriously. mollie is an excellent scumhunter, however sometimes she is silly and stubborn about some things. I certainly did not mean to say that you should never listen to what she's saying.

@mollie
I apologise if it offended you. I was (and am) just annoyed that you keep hardtunneling on me and I know that the reason is your loss in Polygamy. I know you'll snap out of it after you see me flip town a couple of times, but it keeps annoying me regardless. I did not mean to discredit your skill or prompt people not to take you seriously

in general

. I did however mean and believe that you're being silly and stubborn

in this game

and people should take your posts with a grain of salt.
Again, sorry.

[Wisdom]

@Bert
Thanks for further assuring me you're scum

[Wisdom]

That's a terrible, terrible transition back to voting Mala. Terribad.

No it isn't. Saki made me realize that it's better if we leave the masons alone. Besides, you were initially in my townreads - even if I changed my mind about you, I don't wish to lynch you over my scumreads.

You told me that you had "assumed I was a monk or mason" after I was asking how likely it is for a mason to be scum if the other is town. How you can just suddenly realize this boggles my mind. NO.

I do not see how that boggles your mind - I bet other people realized it or at least assumed it as well. Asking such a specific question meant that you either wanted to pose as a mason, or were an actual mason.

Mala/Honey Bee/Sakura/Bert

game solved

That you can be so sure of this right now is what worries me. Where is this surefire confidence coming from?

Loads of bullshit. You've seen my play and you know how confident I can be. In fact, I've been confident in my reads this whole game. How do you

only now

realize this?

No, no, no.

Yes.

If this is your townplay, bah... no words lol because that would be hard to swallow

And finally this - you opportunistically join the dance of "omg if Wisdom is town I won't believe it". Maybe you wish to blacklist me as well?

[Wisdom]

Vote: GM

I've been not liking GM - consolidating votes is fine by me.

Give me one reason for which you disagree that it's best to do what Saki said. Not lynch either of you today, and let you wolfhunt each other in your QT. How can you not see the benefit of this since you're a mason yourself?

[Wisdom]

No, your reads have been changing, Wisdom.

Stop with the blacklist bullshit. That's a terrible response to me saying you're scummy. "SO U GONNA BLACKLIST ME THEN? HUH?"

*shrug*

Didn't you say you cannot believe this is my townplay? Just like others have said before you? Well those others said they'll blacklist me, so maybe you want to do it too, huh?

In other news, good job dodging everything I said in there.

[Wisdom]

ok mollie.
Do you disagree that it's best to leave the masons alone today so they can wolfhunt each other?

[Wisdom]

I think you're scum. Doesn't mean I'm gonna blacklist you. LOL

Where did that conclusion come from? That's quite a jump..

You sheeped the "omg this cant be town Wisdom" belief, so it's not a jump, no.

I stand by how it's impossible that you would be so unaware of how masons and monks work in this game.

Excuse me? How am I unaware of that?

Fine with the lynching others over us because I'm a mason. Why you're using the odds of us being scum as the initiative and incentive to lynch others when you strongly believe me to be scum is what gets me.

I strongly believe Mala is scum too - more than you. I had you as a townread and even wanted to have you in a townblock. A person like this is not who I want to lynch over my initial scumreads like Mala.

And if you look at GM's posts, that thing about Nacho is not the only thing that makes me uncomfortable. Why can't you see that

I saw it and I answered to you twice about it.
Besides, in the beginning you doubted the hydra was town too. You were saying they don't give town vibes and stuff. So wanting to lynch people based on that is a huge hypocrisy.

[Wisdom]

eta: no

Was that to my question? Do you agree or disagree?

[Wisdom]

Good now answer my question too, Bert

[Wisdom]

Ok, why do you disagree?

[Wisdom]

6 pages. 6 pages of LOL IDC WISDOM SUCKS N STUFF.

This game is getting ridiculous. HITF am I supposed to keep up with this shit?

Read Bert's recent posts and tell me if you agree that he's scum.

[Wisdom]

How is she being dangerous explains what I asked?
Did you even think what I asked through?

I'll repeat;
Masons can wolfhunt each other.
Masons have a less chance of flipping scum since they're conf not mafia.
Thus we are better off lynching outside the masons.

Where do you disagree?

[Wisdom]

because of her comments about nacho

i dont care if she's only been in a few games with nacho, her comments about nacho and how yall arent town were so so so so not town. how gm can think that and reference all those games, etc., etc. without accuracy either in her statements made it a weak weak weak weak scummy move on her part

I will repeat. You made similar comments about the hydra not being town towards the beginning of the game. You were saying things like "mollie wants to cover for Nacho" when she said that she will text him. Those things were far more stupid (or far more scummy) than gm's simple paranoia on Nacho. You're being a hypocrite.

Wisdom's arguiment that "smart scum buddy nacho, not antagonize" is BS and that's just an excuse

Nope it's the truth. Do you want to see Polygamy ScumQT where we discussed we're not going to antagonize Nacho? Do you want me to remind you of Popcorn, where scum gave the weapon to Nacho so they don't have to antagonize him? Or do you want me to point you to tons of Nacho games where scum buddied Nacho?

wisdom is so adamant on defending gm from the get-go. why

Because I'm confident in my reads. Which you know. And act like you don't.

[Wisdom]

because we want to hit scum. wolf and mafia are counter to our wc why is this so hard to understand

That's exactly what I'm telling you mollie. Masons cannot be mafia, and cannot be wolves together. Therefore they have LESS of a chance to flip scum. Even if one of them is, there are THREE others outside the masons. How is it against our wincon to hunt those three?

[Wisdom]

I don't. His posts are a bit wishywashy but that jives with what I know of him as Town - analyzing everything, saying little. See Micro 189 (under his alt).
So he's sheeping everyone to death. Sure it's exceedingly anti-Town, but that doesn't make him a Wolf.

What about his sudden certainty that I'm scum? I realize you don't know of my history with him like I do, which adds to my scumread, but still it's evident it's coming from scum.

What about the fact he was certain about Mala being scum (evident by how he replied to her) yet she jumped to you twice?

What about the fact he was self-defeatist about his wagon after having tried to encourage someone not to do that exact thing?

[Wisdom]

No, Nacho and mollie have proven they are town.

To you, maybe. Why do you expect everyone to share your reads? That's not the point however. The point is you were paranoid about the hydra at first, just like goodmorning. Yet you accuse her of that. Even worse, that's the only reason you're voting her.

And no that doesn't mean everyone follows that rule and buddies Nacho as scum if they're experienced. Tehre's no set line of right behavior or smart behavior for scum when playing with Nacho.

That's true. However it's what's most likely. The fact your sole reason for scumreading her is the actual fact that she's antagonizing Nacho is the issue - when it's most likely that scum won't do that, scumreading her for that is stupid.

Doesn't make your reads right if you're confident.

It certainly doesn't. Is that the point? No. The point is you're doubting I am town because my reads are confident. While you know that my reads are confident when I'm town.

[Wisdom]

and you know how I play as scum, so it's really really really bad that you are being so tunnely on me actually

you have been scum WITH me before

LOL

You just said you posted nothing in that game. Yet you now mention that game as an example I should consider?

[Wisdom]

Bull.

I'm doubting you're town because your reads are based on some really stubborn, logical, petty stuff that doesn't make much sense

Which pretty much is the definition of my townplay.

dont'expect everyone to share your reads on Mala either. See where your wagon on her has gotten? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Okay can everyone listen to me for just a second?

Go and see what Bert was replying to Mala when he was voting her. Go and see how confident he was that she was scum. Go! And then tell me this isn't a contradiction.

And yes I posted SOMETHING, which is more than NOTHING.

I did post in there several times.

And this is another contradiction. You just said it YOURSELF that you posted nothing there.

[Wisdom]

@mollie
Please don't be stubborn.
Bert is scum. goodmorning is town.
But even if I am wrong about that, it's not wise to lynch from the masons. Relax for a while and think it through and you'll see it's right.

[Wisdom]

You're taking it literally. Go look in Polygamist. I DID post in there. I said "nothing" to mean I am lurky as fuck as scum. What part of that don't you understand?

You said that I don't have history with you because you posted nothing in Polygamy (therefore we shouldn't consider that game part of our history) and in the very next post you say that I should know your scum play because of Polygamy. This is the mother of contradictions, you can't have it both ways, Bert.

[Wisdom]

notscience if you cannot handle it, replace out and blacklist me like the others. Capiche? Otherwise, stop fluffing because I'm that close to starting doubting my townread on you.

[Wisdom]

@mollie
Please don't be stubborn.
Bert is scum. goodmorning is town.
But even if I am wrong about that, it's not wise to lynch from the masons. Relax for a while and think it through and you'll see it's right.

we are lynching gm and that is all I have to say

We are not lynching gm, mollie.

[Wisdom]

1) I thought both of them were scum. And I stand by that. It's not like I went from having a strong townread on Mala and in less than a page of posting or less (in real or virtual time) went from that strong townread to a strong scumread on her.???

You keep saying that my Mala wagon is bad and goes nowhere and stuff. That assumes you think Mala is town. So yes you went from a strong scumread on her to calling the wagon on her bad. Which is another mother of contradictions.

2) self-defeatist?? Of course I don't want people to end up giving away the emotions I give when I'm self-defeatist. Because I've seen myself get lynched many times from eing that way, and the people I told that to, I wanted them to go down with a fight, not just give way like I do sometimes.

How the hell can you advise people not to be self-defeatist and then be one yourself in the fucking same game?