Open 319: Jungle Republic - Day 5: Calamity *GAME OVER*

[Thor665]

1. I've been off the site for...six months? But I've been here since 2008, gone nowhere else, quite loyal to MafiaScum.

Vote: Ray Montano

Serious vote is very serious. Let's speed lynch him naow.

[Thor665]

The obvious wagon of win I have - you should join it.
The evidence is in my post above.

[Thor665]

Wooosh - no quick lynch? ::sadface::

Okay, let's lay out some reactions to that wagon.

Tyhess is probably town.
The Fool never answered the 'deeper' reasons to vote Ray, did he? He should really answer that - like - na0w!
Fighting Shadows is probably town.
DK is...DK. I could get behind a policy lynch there but I think we could probably do better - Werewolves should totally kill him though, he gets crazy effective at scumhunting starting Day 3.
Could someone explain to me why it was scummy that DK called two players as having a similar playstyle? That (and question derpiness) seems to be the case on him. I'm down with the derpiness but the other thing...whuh? Explain pl0x, I'm ready to sheep onto that in a second once I know why it's scummy.

Ray should still be lynched, unless someone can quote me a post where he is actually scumhunting. He's an experienced player and he doesn't seem to know how to scumhunt - that doesn't worry anyone else? It worries the everlovin' frell out of me.

[Thor665]

@Ray - so you're admitting you're useless to town? Replace out?

@TheFool - how is wagon hopping scummy in any way?

[Thor665]

@Ray - and the "supposed" meta is - I'm familiar with Newbie games - you're playing exactly like a Newbie but are blatantly not one so...why am I getting a 'this is the first time I've played' vibe off you?

Link to any completed scum games?

[Thor665]

I just don't understand why you're making generalized assumptions on how players should be playing based on their experience level. That doesn't make any sense. You're doing it with both myself and DK.

DK I have meta knowledge of - it is not an experience based tell at all.
You I have no meta of, but I have a strong feeling about the way you are playing. I could call it a "gut" case if you don't like the "experience" case, but I'm trying to explain where the "gut" comes from insteand of just going "I am awesome, sheep me" which works - but usually only with people that have played with me enough before to know how accurate my reads on gut are.

And if you want to find completed scum games of me you can go do the research and figure it out yourself.

Reason Thor asked for meta: To see if his opinion of your scum/town play could clarify his read of you.

Town reason to avoid giving the meta: Lazy.
Scum reason to avoid giving the meta: Suspects it will help catch him as scum.

Vote stays.
Needs more votes on this wagon.

[Thor665]

For me, it's because it seems like he's trying too hard to contribute or something. Like he has these crazy accusations of me cheating but doesn't back it up. He compares us to eachother for reasons other than his own intuition which doesn't cut it for me.

So, your accusation is that he's scum who decided to make up a case based on nothing, and hope town would buy into it and leave him alone/sheep him to get you lynched?

We have established he's not a great player - good job.
Why does this make him scum? Bad players are town in the normal statistical amounts that good players are last I checked.

@Mod - could you clarify if your random role assessment favors bad players being scum more often than good players?

The above is probably just a mocking comment, but I do want to drive the point home. You should probably sheep me onto Ray - he's scum and I actually have a case for it, we can lynch DK tomorrow when he's still being useless

[Thor665]

About when the mod posts all roles/alignments after endgame.

Do you have anything actually useful to do via scumhunting, or are we going to get into a playstyle debate as a method of trying to weaken the case I have on you? Because I can easily present multiple games where my gut reads were right - and I'd happily be willing to compare my accuracy rating versus any other scumhunting method. Frankly, if you can show me somthing that works better than my method I'd use it. Haven't found it yet.

More votes on flailing scum, pl0x!

[Thor665]

I really am willing to take the risk of DK being a VT. I still can't even fathom his kind of play with his 1000 posts. It doesn't add up.

this

Go look at any of DK's other games and then come back and tell me he wouldn't do this as town.

What do you think about the interaction between Ray and I? You seem to have avoided commenting on it.

[Thor665]

Do you think Ray has done anything to help town besides being secure in the knowledge that his lynch won't end the game?

[Thor665]

Some call it a policy lynch, some call it lynching for a scumtell. Six of one half a dozen of another. I do think someone who appears to have knowledge of the game paired with an inability to apparently progress town forward should be lynched.

Who do you think should be lynched?

[Thor665]

Personally, I support quick reads as pro-town as they start discussion.

[Thor665]

@whispersilk - no one is voting tyhess, how do you feel about that?

[Thor665]

Thor what do you think of my theory on you and Ray not being Mafia together, but I am certain one of them is Mafia.

I would say the basic thesis - we are not scum together - makes a lot of sense as I'm certainly being fairly aggressive if this is just a bussing action.

The further conclusion - one of you is scum, the other is town - has no relevant basis. We could easily be town/town if my read is wrong, and I fail to see any evidence or logic that drew you to that, so I suspect it's your usual gut response via no evidence style case.

Why do you ask?

Also - vote Ray, 50% chance he's scum in your own words.

[Thor665]

Very interested as to why, in 27 posts Ray has yet to put his vote anywhere, seems overly cautious to me and could be scum trying not to draw attention to themselves.

I agree with you Thor.

Wait...you're not Thor, *I'm* Thor...but you're almost quoting Thor's case! In any case, Thor is fething brilliant, so you should probably back him up since you think exactly like him and may be as awesome as him too (well, not really, but there's always hope).

[Thor665]

I'm concerned about the early wagon on ray. Could you please explain to me why you think he deserves votes? And is it that you think he should be lynched, or are you just trying to apply pressure?

If I want him to be lynched my answer is - I want him to be lynched.
If I want to just apply pressure my answer is - I want him to be lynched.

I want him to be lynched.
Preferably via speed wagon, choo-choo!

I'm incapable of flying under any radar. I'm a smart hawt woman, ffs.

The Internet - where the men are men, the women are also men, and the children are FBI Agents.

When is your useless and of no help vote going to become something not useless and of help? I'd love to see that happen.
Hint: Ray votes are helpful.

[Thor665]

@DK - I'm dead serious about Ray being scum. I've presented a case, he got nervous about it and settled for trying to discredit me via playstyle issues rather than actually explaining how I was inherently wrong and he *was* scumhunting. Also, ignored very reasonable offer by me to provide meta to ease off my case, as though trying to bluster through it. Classic looking scum bust to my mind, he needs rope.

@Whisper...I've already explained the case once. There's an addendum/expansion to the case above. Could you clue me in about what parts you don't understand? Otherwise all I'd do is copy/pasta it and shrug. Where am I losing you?

Also, please accelerate your 'providing reads' section, I'd like to see them.

[Thor665]

Also, please accelerate your 'providing reads' section, I'd like to see them.

I mean, seriously, we're 11 pages in now. Half of that is DK fluff, but still.

[Thor665]

Thor-Quicky reads do stimulate conversation but they were posted a few hours in, and based purely off the silliness of RVS. And, I may be wrong on this, I don't even know if everyone had posted yet.

You seem to be explaining why they aren't scummy to me.
I already believe this.
If you accept they were quick, and you accept it was before everyone had posted so they are of questionable quality, and you think it was a read off of RVS that shouldn't be taken too seriously - what makes them scummy?

Frankly I'm finding you more scummy for this double talk and apparent unease of a read made off "silly RVS" tells than wanting to seriously lynch DK for advancing said commentary.

[Thor665]

@TheFool - how is wagon hopping scummy in any way?

Understanding the rationale behind placing and moving votes can go a long way towards understanding that person's motives and alignment. Dodging questions about said rationale is therefore suspect.

In other words; wagon hopping isn't scummy at all.
The motives behind vote movement might be scummy.

I agree with that.

Also, you're voting Ray, so you're probably obv. town now. Good job!

[Thor665]

Don't be silly Thor. Your case really wasn't a case so there's nothing real for me to be answering to. And there's no way you're getting meta on me. You've done nothing to show you're a credible player deserving of it.

Continuing your line of "Thor is somehow inherently bad so the case doesn't need addressing in any way except pointing out that Thor is a bad player who no one should listen to."

So - case is bad.
I'm a terrible player.

Apparently I'm not scum though - even though I'm so terrible I'm not worth helping.
Also, the case is so bad you can't even be bothered to assault it, so will instead ignore the message and assault the messenger.

Why aren't you lynched yet?
Maybe I really am a bad player if I can't get this to happen.

At least you admit you haven't scumhunted at all thus far - so that's at least something my case is correct about, right?

[Thor665]

I think its about time I run through my scum reads, as I think its time to start seriously looking at lynching someone.

This doesn't sound like you're saying you've been doing this all along - so you admit you haven't been voting, admit you haven't been going through your scumreads, and admit up till now you had no desire to see someone lynched.

Please quote the scumhunting I'm missing - I'd love to see it. Heck, I'll unvote you if I see it, won't that be fun?

[Thor665]

I did read, I found none, hence the case.

[Thor665]

Would you like to quote some of the scumhunting and rub my face in it for laughs?

[Thor665]

I have no interest in doing such thing...

because there are no such quotes and I'm acting brash by saying you should go look for them by reading when I am well aware they do not exist.

Amirite?

[Thor665]

@Everyone - please lynch Ray or explain to me why we shouldn't.

[Thor665]

He is, however, tunneling Ray.

You think Ray's interactions with me look town in any way? Here, let me offer one of my patented conversation summary posts, and you can let me know where you think I go wrong;

Thor: Ray, home dawg! I see no(0) scumhuntez from U, dat scummy!
Ray: Nah, silly boy, you just don't know my meta, so your meta case is stupid.
Thor: Yo, could ya sh0w me a scumz game of Urz so I canz learn ur meta?
Ray: Nah, you're really stupid and so is this case, everyone should ignore it.
Thor: I iz pretty sur dat makes U more scumz, peoplez should vote you for awesome justice and stuff.
Ray: Nope, you're a terrible player.
Thor: Den why not explain how mah case iz actually bad?
Ray: It's too terrible to bother, but maybe I'll do a bit of scumhunting now.
Thor: So...wait, dog, you just agreed U weren'tz doing anE scumhuntigz!
Ray: No I didn't, I scumhunt constantly, just read my ISO.
Thor: I did, dere be no scumhuntigz!
Ray: That's because you're too stupid to see the obvious and constant scumhunting I'm doing.
Thor: Quote 1 example of scumhuntingz an I'll unvote U!
Ray: My gawd, you are a terrible player, how can anyone listen to you. You know who's scummy? Players who are listening to you. (lists those players) but not you, you're town.
Thor: If I'mma town just quote anything, I don't think U canz becauze it don't existingz!
Ray: Trolololol, nope, not doing anything to help obv. town stop tunneling me. I'm an awesome and pro town player, it's as obvious as my constant scumhunting.

Feel free to vaguely point out when he acts town. I don't see it.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but that's the point.

I'm town.
I'm clearly focused on him.
Solution? Mock me, call me too stupid to understand anything, and REFUSE TO PROVIDE ANY OF THE VERY REASONABLE EXAMPLES OR HELP TOOLS I REQUEST THAT WOULD PROVE I AM WRONG.
Then call me wrong and stupid some more.
He's attacking me while avoiding the case in an attempt to discredit the case without having to actually deal with it. I also vaguely think he's calling me town as a means of appeasement 'hey, back off buddy - I think you're town, so we can be friends, yeah?' all while also apparently thinking I'm so incapable in the game as to not know what scumhunting is or isn't - and yet despite me being dumber than a stump he thinks I look town...why, because I'm tunneling him? Since when is that a town tell?

His reads make no sense.
His actions make no sense.
He is scum.

[Thor665]

His reads make no sense.

How so? You haven't expressed any issues with my reads yet. All you've been focused so far is yourself and nothing that I've said about players.

Well, specifically from the post you quoted from I outlined my issues.

You believe I am town.
Why?

Is it my total and complete idiocy in making cases?
My inability to spot scumhunting?
Or my blatant tunneling of you?
Why am I town?
That read makes no sense.

[Thor665]

You're still going to refuse to quote any of this scumhunting I should have seen or post a link to a completed scum game though?

[Thor665]

Wanna point out where I misrepped you or me in that exchange?

[Thor665]

Not Voting (3/12): tyhess, BBmolla, Sky

Quite literally all three could vote the exact same on any player in the game and we still wouldn't be lynching anyone. So...probably they should vote someone.

[Thor665]

If you're not going to vote anyone, you should give me your top three suspects - we're 12 pages in (9 if you ignore all of the DK blather) so it's a fair bet you should be able to peg at least 1-3 suspects, yeah?

Frankly, I wanted a lynch about 2 pages ago, so...

[Thor665]

I'm not going to credit a non-sustainable offense such as "you don't scumhunt". Its the oldest Smurf offense in the book other than OMGUS.

Except that unlike OMGUS it's actually a decent scumtell.
Also, I've repeatedly asked you to discredit my non-sustainable offense and your total inability to do so pretty much screams that, at the very least, I was dead right that you weren't scumhunting at all and were just bashing me as opposed to discrediting a case that would be "easy" to discredit if it was wrong.

You're still doing it here. "Thor's case is "Smurf" it's as bad as OMGUS, it's non-sustainable, blah, blah, blah, please ignore that I haven't actually dealt with the accusation in any way except vaguely calling it and Thor bad in vague ways. In fact, I'm not dealing with it because I'm "better" than the case and will rise above it like a Phoenix ascending on wings of obviously innocent win."

Yeah, not sold.
How about you vote me so I can claim you're OMGUSing too, then you can ignore that as well

[Thor665]

PING PING PING

Tyhess is probably town???
Werewolves should kill someone who gets good at scumhunting???
I already had you marked down as leaning scum and you took a giant leap into vote territory

ITT - blindfaeth finds Tyhess so scummy that me finding him town is worth voting me for.
But apparently does not want to lynch Tyhess?
How does that make any sense whatsoever? Maybe you should at least...I dunno...spit balling here...ask why I found Tyhess town?
And explain why you're not voting him...

And sarcasm as regards DK - you don't get it.

I think those comments were made on purpose, and I think he has a lot of confidence in this game.
[snip]
Also DK, if he has experience playing with you, I can fully understand his joke about wanting the wolves to kill you.

Whispersilk proves she's better at reading comprehension and basic logic than blindfaeth.

@Whisper - you and DK seemed excited by blindfaeth showing up. If the game you're in with him is ongoing please don't quote specifics, but were you excited because he was a friendly/familiar face? Or were you excited because you think he's a good scumhunter/pro-town force?

Okie dokie. It is interesting, Thor is one of those players that seem more active than they actually are. Possibly because he's mentioned so much? Idk

Possibly because I drive discussion and make statements that obligate people to respond to them - aka. scumhunting.
Are you accusing me of being nonactive here?

Blindfaeth can go into the scum list now.
OMGUS!
Also, still want Ray lynched, but now actually have someone I would get off Ray to lynch as well.

[Thor665]

And sarcasm as regards DK - you don't get it.

Wait!
Darn!

@whisper silk - he might be a Werewolf, so 'shhhhhhh'

[Thor665]

I felt some sarcasm, but mostly I felt a duck, let's try this again.

Thor: Tyhess is towny diggity dawg town!
blindfaeth: OMG!!!! Tyhess is super scummy! It's scummy that you have a town read on Tyhess! Vote: Th0r!!1!
Thor: Tyhess is so scummy I deserve to be voted because I have a town read on him?
blindfaeth: lawl, yes!
Thor: Do you even want to vote him?
blindfaeth: lawl n0000000!
Thor: Do you even want to know why I have a town read on him?
blindfaeth: lawl n0000000!
Thor: Do you-
blindfaeth: You're using sarcasm! Here it is back at'cha!

I think i got that about right, yes/no?

[Thor665]

For those who don't speak leet.

Thor is scummy because he thinks Tyhess is town.
blindfaeth doesn't care why Thor thinks Tyhess is town and doesn't want to vote Tyhess but thinks voting Thor is a good idea.
Minds slightly melt somewhere at this point as they try to figure out the logic.
Profit.

[Thor665]

@blindfaeth - Tyhess is town for his reaction to the DK wagon. Super easy hop on moment, lots of steam to that wagon, DK is a mislynch+1 super sloppy scum love dream.

What's Tyhess do? Soft defend it.

I think DK is town - the only way Tyhess' play makes sense is if he's scum *and* DK is his partner, otherwise I'd expect a stronger wording on the defense.

Please explain why Tyhess is scum
Please explain why I'm scum that doesn't relate to Tyhess.

Actually, also while we're at it - please quote where I personally insulted you. I was actually going to apologize/explain the insult but in looking back I couldn't find it, and I really don't think I insulted you in any way whatsoever - making this a fake play of the "I'mma insulted" card.

[Thor665]

Something tells me that he is so overly defiant that he couldn't scum, and more just a disgruntled townie.

My belief is he's intentionally playing that way in order to create this belief. Also, he knows he has no defense so he's trying to bluster through it.

[Thor665]

Whispersilk proves she's better at reading comprehension and basic logic than blindfaeth.

If that's insulting to you it's no more insulting than you suggesting I'm scum who is openly explaining why someone is a good nightkill target because...y'know, that's what scum do.

You and her had a drastically different take on something I said.
You took it serious and ergo suggested I was the dumbest scum in existence. She saw it as the tongue in cheek reference it fairly clearly was. I apologize if it offended you, I was really just trying to point out how really odd your conclusion was by showing how other people in thread understood what I meant.

Please explain why you're so convinced he isn't. Regardless of whether DK is scum or not, there are two factions.

DK does not have to be tyhess' teammate to be scum.

But he does have to be Tyhess' teammate for Tyhess to be scum - otherwise why would Tyhess defend him in that manner. I was very clear on that as part of my case.

Oh wait, that's right. You think that tyhess is town because he voted with you on Ray, right? Anyone who agrees with you is good and anyone who doesn't, or accuses you, is bad, right?

Wrong.

Actually I don't believe this, though I do joke about it a lot and considering how you perceive sarcasm I can see how that confused you. Basically - when I'm being sarcastic I don't actually believe the things I'm saying while being sarcastic - that's the point of sarcasm, generally speaking.

Something sat wrong with me about his logic here.

This is your issue with how he responded to the Seer/Werewolf theory question. How is that a scumtell? Seriously?
He's scummy because he didn't notice that the theory question only had one wolf alive and made a logically incorrect answer based on that?
He's scummy because he *did* know the theory question said only one wolf was alive and...gave bad advice...to fool a theory Seer who ends up in that theory situation?
How is that scummy at all? You spotted bad reading comprehension and/or bad logic - there's no scum advatage to lie there unless you think his plan was to fool a Seer who maybe ended up in that situation. So...?

All of the responses are snarky. I don't know why you expect me to find you OR tyhess genuine when all you are doing all the time is being sarcastic.

You have successfully identified me as a jerk and Tyhess as sarcastic - shockingly I'm a jerk when town or scum, and probably he's sarcastic as both too. This is not a scumtell, it's an issue with a person's posting style.

And when you are talking about his response to the DK lynch, do you mean the post where he said "Don't lynch, he's at L-1"?? Is that all it takes to convince you that they are town?

Actually, the one where he was trying to talk him out of self voting.

Hey, no one lynch DK, alright? kthxbai.

Oh man, you are obvious town. Help me lynch Ray!

here you advocate Ray's lynch regardless of alignment because you think he can't scumhunt.

Actually, what I said was;

Ray should still be lynched, unless someone can quote me a post where he is actually scumhunting. He's an experienced player and he doesn't seem to know how to scumhunt - that doesn't worry anyone else? It worries the everlovin' frell out of me.

I never call him town or both alignments. I say he's not scumhunting and that worries me. The direct translation is - he's not scumhunting because he's scum.

hmmm
Sorry I have to agree with Ray on this one. Isn't he the one who went out of his way to say this is his alt and he does not want to disclose his main account?

Whoah!
Quote - quote na0w! Seriously, I really need to see you provide this quote. You will redefine my case if you can. I don't think he ever said this - so I want to know where you're getting it from.


@Everyone

So Faeth's case on me is;
Issues with sarcasm (quite a few)
Misunderstanding what I say.
And a reference that I don't think is in the game (but he'll quote to educate me, which is awesome)
Okay, nice case, and look at how the wagon on me exploded. Yeah, obvious wagon on scum is obvious, amirite?

Note Ray already angling around to calling me scum now and suggesting he already had negative feelings towards me.

[Thor665]

Re: Gaston - I do like book reading Frenchwomen and eating eggs. So, sure.

[Thor665]

For the record, I did say I wasn't going to give my alts but not in as firm of terms as blind would suggest.

Link to this? I only have the one conversation from you I can find and all you do is admit this account is an alt.

I really don't think he looked up your other games to find this info. Are you claiming this?

What I'm driving at is I believe this conversation was held.

In a QT.

Your scum QT, to be exact.

Note: Don't be an Smurf Thor. I've made it very clear how many positioning on players has changed. If I thought you were scum I would be campaigning against you. My position on you switched from firmly believing you're town to slightly less so. Don't play the Smurfing victim.

So are you agreeing the timing looks suspect from my angle to the point I could play the victim? Between the last time you called me town, and the time this wagon sprang up did you clarify a shift - because your post makes it sound like the shift already happened. What happened before the wagon to make the shift?

Ok so can we compromise or something? When you're being sarcastic can you like, change the font color to orange or something?

I'm not going to do this.
But here's a hint.
If something I say makes you go "holy cats, he's openly admitting to being scum because that play makes no sense and is totally unfounded and ridiculous and is a super obvious scum tell!"
and nobody else calls me on what I just said.
Then it's probably a joke.

Anyway, accusing people of being scum is part of the game; calling people dumb isn't. So we will just have to agree to disagree that it was an insult. I have a bachelor's degree, thanks.

I never said you were dumb, I said whisper was better than you. I didn't mean that you were dumb I did have issue with you taking a fairly obvious looking joke and somehow claiming it was a scumtell. I'll retract any claims to calling you dumb, but maintain your case is based on inability to grok what I am saying.

@Tick - maybe, but he also may be scum who's incapable of spotting sarcasm and now has to pull back when confronted with solid defense. I'm mostly concerned by the Alt tell right at the moment - the 'weak case' tell is systematic of all his cases so I'll agree that is probably inherently null, but it's certainly not then a town tell.

[Thor665]

Well, blindfaeth's off my heel list.

*Sorry totally not game related* I'd just like to say I'm really pleased with the use of pro wrestling terms.

Look up Locke Lamora and get in on his next Wrestling Mafia game. They are awesome, and usually involve multiple chair shots before the end.

/off topic

[Thor665]

@Ray - I have no idea what you're even coming at me with there, but am pretty sure you misunderstood what I was saying - I'll restate;

1. Faeth "knows" you claimed an alt and a desire not to provide game info - thus excusing your refusal to help meta yourself.
2. You say it exists.
3. I deny this exists in thread and desire him to show it to me due to a belief it showed up in a scum QT. I ask you if you think he metaed you to be aware of the quote.
4. He provides a quote from Fighting Shadow with a 'lol wrong player' and also defends himself because 'he couldn't be talking in the scum QT right now. So...in other words he does a 50% good defense and a 50% please hang me defense. Par for the course.
5. You accuse me of believing the meta doesn't exist in another game and show me it does, answering nothing I asked and proving me wrong of a stance I never took.

That's my understanding of the flow there.

@Blindfaeth - now that we've established that Ray never denied desire to provide meta info on himself, what is your take at his standoffish behavior to provide any backing to his commentary? Look at the case I've made on him, and note the repeated times I've asked him to produce stuff (that he says exists in this thread) and recognize he thought I was town during those exchanges.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Thor665]

Wanna point out where I misrepped you or me in that exchange?

Would you like to quote some of the scumhunting and rub my face in it for laughs?

Here are two things I requested that have zero to do with meta - he politely told me to fob off both times.

I'm honestly confused why you're asking this - do you not understand my case on Ray? It started with a discussion of meta and scumhunting, but it's really got nothing to do with whether or not he'll link me a past game. I am starting to not feel like you read clearly through the game now.

In any case, off memory or off a re-read, could you offer me your views of my case on Ray, and specifically his actions during the period he thought I was town, which I do not feel your last post did.

[Thor665]

It's 12:40pm my time so I'm not going to try to get clever with thoughts on this now, but that is an *awesome* vote change for consideration later. Something fascinating happened here, yes.

@Ray - preemptive - thoughts on Faeth's vote move? (I know it's against your playstyle to actually offer opinions on actions in game, but I'd love to have you shake things up )

@Faeth - short answer to the non-analysis needing part of your post. I vote via reactions/gut, PoE, and vote analysis. So my playstyle is intended to be difficult to ignore, and to create wagons and vote movement. Insomuch as you seem to somewhat grok that - yes, you're tagging me perfectly.

I'm actually of the opinion that about 10-13 pages is all that's 'needed' for Day 1 in a mini though, I've been wanting a hammer and a flip for at least 5 pages now.

Could you kindly point me to your case on Ray because we must have different opinions on what a case is.
[snip]
But I have to agree that it doesn't feel like a case, maybe more an assortment of points against him.

Cases are for wusses.
Also, an assortment of points against someone is a case.

@BB - we're not disrupting things enough for it to be an anti-town fight. We're getting reads on each other.

[Thor665]

@DK - you're accusing me of bad play?

::crickets::

And, yes, I'm trying to get Ray lynched in every post I make. You're not the only one who noticed it, I noticed it too, because I'm quite blatantly saying in every post that I want people to help me lynch Ray.

Though right at the moment I'm seriously almost tempted to flip on Blindfaeth - and you ducking my question about why you were happy to see him helps me not at all in that regard. The suddenness of the reversal of his reads is pretty shocking, and I want to know more about his play style. So how about you pretend to be pro-town for a little while and tell me you opinions of how Blindfaeth plays the game?

[Thor665]

Considering you're voting me and I'm definitely town - you're even more scold worthy.

3rd time - What's your read on Blindfaeth's playstyle?

[Thor665]

What do you think of him as a player since you've played with him before? What type of player is he?

[Thor665]

@Blind: Your case is good. It's wrong, but it's good.

Town.

Thor if Ray happens to be lynched and flips Town, do you think you would deserve the blame?

Other than the blame Ray deserves, yes, the blame would be mine.
If he flips scum does that make me obv. town, awesome, and do you get all the blame? (because you will - from me anyway )

[Thor665]

Thor - This Ray wagon you're trying to build irks me. Besides his unwillingness to cooperate with you, it just doesn't have any backbone to it (unless I'm missing something).

The case for the sun being bright, ignoring it's luminescence, doesn't have any backbone to it, unless I'm missing something.

[Thor665]

Still, for just a couple seconds, pretend you're the teacher and I'm the student. Teach me why we should whack this guy.

I've said it a few times before and have apparently hit a brick wall with most of the players, but let me try yet another rendition - I'm an optimistic guy;

1. Ray is playing in a way that has no scumhunting - he's keeping reads close to his chest and not putting out any difficulties to prevent him from voting any way he pleases.

This is scummy because it let's him go "always suspected 'Player X' whenever he feels like it and helps him avoid being caught in any sort of contradiction of reads.

2. When approached by a player he believes is town, who is tunneling him, he does nothing to help the player un-tunnel and instead mocks his case and ability to form reads.

This is scummy because if you believe someone is town you don't want them tunneled, and certainly not on you. Also, if you think someone is town you should at least try to get them to talk out their reads and explain your issues with them to educate them - after all, you may be counting on them for your wincon later. Having a player beaten down to the point no one will listen to them is only helpful if that player is not on your side.

3. Refuses to back up statements he made by producing quotes.

This is...well...more annoying than scummy. But if I say something to someone, and they call me on it, I LOVE to produce the evidence to prove I'm right. It ends the debate, makes me feel like a real man and be a stallion in bed with women, and also advances the game onwards. Inability to do this suggests you're, well, just making stuff up and hoping no one will call you on it. Also known as lying. Lying is not pro-town.

4. The only reads Ray has offered have been three scum reads on three lurkers (for the crime of lurking) and one town read on me that he then shifted to a null.

This is scummy because these are wimpy easy reads that scum love (scum on lurkers for lurking) and he called me town while I was attacking him, and then shifted me to null when I kept attacking him, which to my mind suggests I was correct when I said his town read on me was an attempt to buy me off and get me to leave him alone. He shifted it to null right when lots of other players started voting me in, my opinion, a pretty clear setup to allow him to vote me if I became wagon of choice after he'd been calling me town.

Does that help?
Or is water not wet if you ignore the moistness?

[Thor665]

In Whisper's defense she's doing the same thing in another game - so the current lurk is probably null.

[Thor665]

About time you give a legit explanation of your vote on Ray >_>

That was the third time I've done it.
How about you vote Ray now, we're lynching him.

[Thor665]

Whatever your understanding is...doesn't make any sense. Your "belief" is half-Smurfed, you don't truly believe I've stated anything about an alt in a QT or whatever you're trying to claim. Its straight up bull. Evidenced by the fact you drop this later while stating your case on me.

Well...actually I "drop it" because my issue there is part of my case on Faeth, so actually has nothing to do with whether you are scummy or not except insomuch as I think Faeth is a possible partner.

I think its kind of a way of pandering himself to you, which doesn't sit right with me. If blind were scum and he believed you to be town it would make a lot of sense. Scum generally tend to make a sort of ally of themselves to a town player who they believe to be strong and have great sway in the town's opinion. I think he finds himself coming off a little in the worst in your guys' exchange and needs to find a way to find himself in your good favor.

I do not disagree with this. He's certainly been mobile in his reads - but at the same time every case he's come up with has been made of cotton candy and daffodils. so I have a hard time deciding if I'm picking up on playstyle or scum.
You still find whatever lurker you're voting for more scummy though?

In case I do get lynched, don't be stupid tomorrow. YOU could probably garner a lot from the interactions of the players who have been advocated my lynch and defended against it. If you really are a good player you could catch scum off it. Otherwise...you're a Smurfy town player...or you're scum.

My play has always been to force a wagon and reactions Day 1 and to scumhunt off them Day 2. I really don't see anything different in your Day 1 lurker hunt as far as brilliance goes, so I'm not quite sure where you think I'm failing - and I've certainly left multiple avenues open to you to prove me wrong and get me off your back. I don't know if you thought cool and distanced was going to do that for you, but clearly that just sets me off more. Maybe if you went back now and answerd some of the questions not worth interesting you could get me to turn the entire wagon around onto Sky or Faeth - y'never know.

[Thor665]

Vote: blindfaeth

As noted, his sudden reverse on Ray was pretty sketchy.

TheFool, CMPunk, BBmolla,
DonJosh, blindfaeth, DeityKabuto

Each of those three groups probably has at least one scum in it and possibly two each. I'm personally going to be shocked if BBmolla is scum of any flavor, I also think Don is still likely town - he's <3ing on me a fair bit which *might* be suspect, but I'd like to think it's just brilliance on his part.

I'd be pretty darn happy lynching any of the other four.

[Thor665]

I was never super enthused on DK town - and his presence as a counter wagon to town when before that I thought he was counter wagon to scum does tend to adjust ones beliefs. Derpy-doo.

I do think he's more likely town than you, if that makes you happy - but I bet you should have been able to predict that from the vote.

[Thor665]

Because my scumbuddy has been blatantly buddying me all game?
And you want to lynch me first of the pair to test if that's true?
Wooosh.

[Thor665]

I'm being run up for the scumtell of being "wrong" aren't I?

[Thor665]

What blame do you think is really there to take other than being "wrong"? I accept the blame, but the blame isn't a case - don't confuse the two.

He played in a way that looked scummy.
I believed he was scum.
I was wrong and lead a lynch on a townie. If every time someone leads a lynch on a townie they get lynched than no one would ever lead a lynch again and no one would ever be lynched.

[Thor665]

Have you ever played on Epic Mafia?

Normally people go after Town's who cause them to mislynch and they flip scum.

Riiiight. Remind me to use some of their other awesome meta from there sometime.

I just think you're better than this.

Only one tick on the sig meter per case, fitz, sorry

What are your thoughts on CMPunk (sorry if you have posted it already).

Posted them today, consider him a likely scumspect, consider him in the less certain pool of three. Would vote, but prefer a vote on Blindfaeth.

Basically I was WIFOMing lol. I know it doesn't mean anything to everyone else. But in my thinking, the only two people Thor have REALLY been suspicious of are Ray and myself. He was wrong about Ray, and he's wrong about me.

By the exact same logic you are scum - wrong about Ray and wrong about me. Derp...

By vote analysis and your sudden, awkward, shift, you're scum regardless of the bad logic of that case.

[Thor665]

No need to do it when you do it first, but yes, your flip-flopping reads are scummy.

[Thor665]

I would like to point out that blindfaeth, again, has suddenly switched suspicions from one leading wagon to another and is now thrashing around like CM has always been the worst thing ever.

I do not think I am wrong twice, this is super sketchy play and really telling, and people should at least weigh in with thoughts on it.

And then votes.

[Thor665]

And then remember that the number used to be 17 and I have a post in this game where I tell him he only gets to add to the signature once per case when he calls me out the exact same way.
Reading - it's for champions.

[Thor665]

K so since his role hasn't been revealed yet how can you add him to the list of people that were scum that said that to you? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding >.>

Mmmm? You're seriously misunderstanding something.

1. Nowhere in my sig does it suggest that it's keeping track of scum who do that.

2. If you DID believe that it was only a list about scum who did that...why does it matter that I didn't call out havingfitz on it?

[Thor665]

@blindfaeth - how about you answer #2 and then I'll explain my sig to you; to restate my questions;

1. Nowhere in my sig does it suggest that it's keeping track of scum who do that.

2. If you DID believe that it was only a list about scum who did that...why does it matter that I didn't call out havingfitz on it?

[Thor665]

@Thor: I'd like you to go more in depth about why you think he's a likely scumspect.

To suss it out clearly - I already said this in my first post of the day when I described the wagon and the chances of scum on it. There were two three person groups - he was in one of them, hence he is a scumspect. That's really the beginning and the end of my scum read on him.

I think CM-Town would imply Thor-Town a little bit, but I don't know if CM-Scum would imply Thor-Scum.
Oh, and I think CM-Scum implies DK-Town. Possibly.

Thoughts?

This is a multi-scum game.

Also, another question for those not voting CM, what makes CM townier than the person you are currently voting?

Because blindfaeth is in a three person group with two players I consider pretty likely town - thus dramatically increasing his chance to be scum from that group as compared to CM who is in with Fool and DK in a derptastic newbie/scum/wtf playstyle sludge fest that I'm hoping I don't actually have to try to figure out.

[Thor665]

@The Fool - quite frankly, I just split the wagon in half.

Some scum would want to get on early to a wagon they saw as possibly gaining speed, and both scum teams would have been fine supporting that wagon. This is the first half of the wagon.
After some scum get on, other scum from their team would want some other people to show support for the wagon and then might snark in towards the end to finish pushing it through - these would be the tail end of the wagon.
Two groups, probably at least 1 scum in each set of three.

There's also scum off the wagon, but those are a little harder to predict where they were lurking until you get a couple more flips.

[Thor665]

seems contrary. And even without that, I'm not sure I see the logic in assuming that at least one of the last three votes

must

be scum.

1. Despite misgivings he's still more town looking than you or CM - sorry, deal with it.
2. Not scum in the last three votes of a Day 1 wagon on town with 5 scum available? Really? Where the heck were the scum then, 2-3 in the first 4 votes and then 2-3 in the three votes off the wagon? Derp-derp-herp, amirite?

There's also three of them; it's just as concise a group

There's not three of them voting for one person - as we get more flips the motives of those three will become more clear. As stands, with everyone voting the same, you can apply direct tells of how they got on the wagon and whether other people there look more or less town than other voters - plus the positional tells.

If you'd like to explain how my method works with the three off the wagon, please do so, I'd be happy to vote in a better group than I am currently.

[Thor665]

lmao. You are dividing the wagons into two groups when you are the main driver who got everyone to sheep them, but nonetheless scum were on that wagon.

Wagon contained 7 of 10 alive players.
There are 5 scum alive.
Derp - there were scum on the wagon, derp-derp-duuuuh.

[Thor665]

1. Counter case? I wasn't aware you'd even managed a case, all you did was ask me if there were scum on the wagon and I proved there were.
2. Everyone is saying they aren't among the scum. Yes, I am saying I'm not scum - derp-herp-herp-drool.
3. Divert attention from what? The super strong cases everyone else is whipping out while saying we should lynch off the wagon?

You asked me if scum was on the wagon - I specifically showed you that *yes* they were. In fact, it's possible that every scum was on the wagon and it's *impossible* for there not to be scum on the wagon. Therefore lynching from the wagon is fething brilliant, and I'm even going a step further and showing logical reasoning of where the scum are and in what numbers.

[Thor665]

[1]

The fact that you have that counter in your quote is an indication that you dislike that particularly weak method of suspecting someone used against you. Or at least thats how I interpreted it. So I thought you'd go out of your way to show some irritation with it, does that make sense?

[2]

I'm also not really following the 2 groups of 3 thing Thor is talking about. I understand it but I don't know where he's pulling the numbers from as far as its likely that so many jumped on at the beginning and so many jumped on at the end. They could have been all of the first votes as far as we know especially if they are on different teams?

1. Ay-yi-yi. Let me give a rundown - then I'll want you to clarify it because the rundown *can't* be correct if you're town.

You : Look at Thor's sig, then look at this post of fitz's. Why didn't Thor call him out on that? Total scumtell (of some vague and unclear scumtell method)!

Me: I did call him out on it.

You: Ah-ha! But how can you call him out on it if he hasn't flipped as scum yet?

Thor:

Then we have your current commentary where you're basically asking me why I didn't call him out on it...which really is best answered by "I did, and I already said I did." But let's get to the core of your belief and why it's scummy;

A. Thor didn't call out havingfitz on this point - that's scummy.
B. Presuming Thor did call him out (not that we'll admit as much) it was scummy of Thor to call him out on it before knowing what alignment havingfitz would flip.

So, basically - if I called him out it was scummy, and if I didn't call him out it was scummy, and when I asked you to explain how both could be true you basically circled around and started attacking me again for not calling him out (which I did). So...again, please explain this - most importantly please explain where I'm wrong, because you look super scummy right now and need rope.

2. Experience tells us this doesn't happen except extremely rarely. So, for the same reason I don't have 'Eaten by Shark' insurance I don't think that scum magically deviated from the expected norm of behavior.

[Thor665]

@blindfaeth - answer the question. You're still circling around while not making clear what you believe and are saying too diametrically opposite things and basically hoping no one notices.

@whisper - That might actually be funny - but I'd note that they were never "right" because even if I was scum I'd be playing a good enough scum game they shouldn't have caught me anyway. That's part of the joke behind my annoyance at that being used as a tell against me - it never actually makes sense.

Also, you're still the only player not voting, who are your current top two scumreads and why?

[Thor665]

@blindfaeth - how about you answer #2 and then I'll explain my sig to you; to restate my questions;

1. Nowhere in my sig does it suggest that it's keeping track of scum who do that.

2. If you DID believe that it was only a list about scum who did that...why does it matter that I didn't call out havingfitz on it?

@Blindfaeth - here's the core of my questions yet again.

You called me out for not calling out havingfitz.
When I pointed out I had, you called me out for calling him scum before his flip.
PLEASE - point out where I'm wrong in all this, I would love to see it.

[Thor665]

@DonJosh - I could actually reasonably get behind that as it works with my case - but why are you fine with not lynching Faeth?

[Thor665]

@Whisper - you actually sold me reasonably well on Skyscum (though, frankly, any town player has a 50/50 to peg scum right now even by just going einey-meeny-miney-moe), but...why no vote? I actually think Sky had a reasonable rebuttal there and you didn't even respond to it.

[Thor665]

No, I missed the reply. What's your eta on iso finish? I'd rather see a vote than the isos, personally.

[Thor665]

No, I missed the reply. What's your eta on iso finish? I'd rather see a vote than the isos, personally.

If you want another mislynch look elsewhere. I vote only to apply pressure, or when I'm very confident I'm right.

Also, I hope my ISO's might help or give other townies something to think about, and perhaps make them reconsider their votes. The fact you're in a rush to lynch another player so quickly makes me suspicious. I'm more interested in reading, discussing, and putting two and two together than pushing a wagon to another mislynch.

That's awesome.

What's your eta on iso finish? I'd rather see a vote than the isos, personally.

[Thor665]

Let me put it another way - the entire writeup you just did on DK could have been summed up as; he's a little too willing to follow people than I am comfortable with, but I've seen him play like this as town. Currently I'm leaning town.

Then is someone called you on it you could write up the uber case.
Until then you could have probably already read up on someone else in the time it took you to write that DK iso.
Maybe I am in a rush. Maybe you're too slow. The truth probably lies in the middle, but don't dismiss me because I'm impatient to see actual movement in the game. That does not inherently make my reads inferior.

[Thor665]

Thor what do you think about CM's lynch?

You've been drawing away from that wagon?

Is it because you don't want people to find you scummy for it or wat?..

1, As already satted - he's a scumspect, he's a solid scumspect, he's a lesser scumspect than blindfaeth.
2. Huh? When was I really on that wagon?
3. Well, or it's because I was never really on the wagon any more or less then I am right now.

Everyone needs to take a close look at Sky.

Lurksack - possible scum. Is part of a three person blob with you, fitz, and himself. I reasonably rule you ou of the blob giving me two possible scum and a 50/50.
My odds on blindfaeth are better statistically due to where scum have to be and is helped even more presuming my reads are correct.

Back from v/LA. Not sure how much I missed but I'll catch up over the next day or two and see if my vote is still where I want it most. I will say I'm surprised Thor has not got more attention. If he were town I would think 5 living scum would have brought him closer to the brink of elimination.

They're waiting for you to actually give them a case they can sheep onto without looking scummy - you haven't given it to them yet.

[Thor665]

Wait, Thor thinks CM might be scum?

unvote CMPunk

Explain.

Well, y'see, I'm so scummy that if I think someone is scummy he can't vote them.
Also, he's not voting me despite me being that scummy...

Why aren't you voting him?

[Thor665]

I hope I don't actually need to explain how that last post is scummy.

[Thor665]

Thor665 (4/6) - DeityKabuto, havingfitz, blindfaeth, BBmolla <----1-2 scum here...hey, look, there's blindfaeth, and look who has also been bouncing around between hot wagons all day, just like yesterday.

Town continues to sleep. Of course half of you are scum so - no shocks.

@BB - why me over Sky? You'd said you would rather lynch me but I'm a little lost to the 'why' part of the equation. Help?

[Thor665]

Back from v/LA. Not sure how much I missed but I'll catch up over the next day or two and see if my vote is still where I want it most. I will say I'm surprised Thor has not got more attention. If he were town I would think 5 living scum would have brought him closer to the brink of elimination.

They're waiting for you to actually give them a case they can sheep onto without looking scummy - you haven't given it to them yet.

This isn't enough? If you were giving me any more reasons you would be a terrible player which I do not think you are. And I still think your continued existence points more towards you being scum. You think 1-2 scum are on your wagon but if that were the case and you were town, you'd have already been an easy, FYPOV, mislynch.

You are seriously expressing that linked "case" as a case on me? You even flat out call me possible town in it.
Also, if this is the angle you're working - why no comment on the two votes I've gained since last you were here? I can accept what you're doing as scumhunting, but you don't actually appear to be doing anything with your evidence gained other than sort of...quipping with me. What are you doing fitz? Also, are you scum? If so I'd like to know so we can lynch you.

[Thor665]

I think more content from fitz is an absolute need.

@Whisper - read on havingfitz and blindfaeth - go!

[Thor665]

There was a point that there was a very nice blindfaeth wagon.
Now it's a Thor or CM Punk decision we're stumbling towards? This is sad.

@Everyone not voting blindfaeth (which is everyone but me) - do ANY of you actually think he's town and wish to flat out state you think he's town. I'd like to know.

I'd rather lynch blindfaeth or havingfitz than CM Punk as currently stands - I think the CM wagon is better than the Thor wagon because it's at least had "sorta" a case presented. But both of these wagons are pretty fail.

@Thor wagon - I challenge any of you to explain the case on me that got you voting me.
@Sky - why are you negative about Fool voting for a wagon you support?

[Thor665]

Why should I believe he's town?

[Thor665]

I agree with CM that DK was wrong to vote for you based upon this, and I'm alarmed by the size of the wagon against you

I'm actually excited by the wagon on me, personally, and sheer statistics say that half of it is going to be scum. Which is about the only thing I thought was a positive about fitz and his play, and he pretty much flat out admitted that's what he was doing...then he lurked out, came back and posted without commenting on the wagon, and lurked out some more. Which hurt my soul and left me </3 as regards fitz. If he continues to lurk out till the end of today and I end up dead please make sure you get him to explain his tactical ideas during this period - because it's making no sense.

[Thor665]

1. Amazed they had the chutzpah to do it without a case.
2. Depends how derpy the players who are available to hammer are.
3. Not too likely - I see no strategic advantage to town to have me dead at this point.

[Thor665]

@fitz - last time you were here you basically summed up the Thor as scum case via 'if he was town I'd expect more people on his wagon supporting my weak arse case'. There are now more people on the wagon and no one has expressed a case worth $.02.

Why no comment on this?
Why is Thor still scum - what is the case on me, because it *can't* be the case I think you've advanced, since that makes zero sense right now.

[Thor665]

The case you're claiming as your "case" on me is an even worse joke than the one I think you're using then.

Basically you're admitting I'm doing things scum wouldn't do...because I'm scum (ignoring that I might simply be doing them because I'm town)
And then adding on - "welp, he was wrong about Ray and he can't spot scumhunting"
To the first I respond - yes, and...?
To the second I go - ...whut? Where?

That's the case. It's a joke. You're actually going to continue vague posting and acting like it's viable though, aren't you?

[Thor665]

Oh, and also the dreaded 'Thor is alive, so he must be scum' while equally claiming I'm obviouslly scummy for bad wagon pushes, which, if I was town, would have scum backflipping in joy. So either my pushes should be good enough for scum to want to kill me, or I should look scummy enough they wouldn't, but either way the 'Thor iz alivez!' tell is a joke too.

[Thor665]

My point is your play day 1 was crap and totally benefitted scum. Tunnelling in the extreme and an unwillingness to consider others until someone actually called you out for your play (BF)..who then became suspect IYO.

He also became suspect in Ray's eyes - y'know, Ray that paragon of pure town whom none should question in your universe.
Why have you expressed no opinion on my Ray case or his constant flip-flops from suspecting someone to sheeping someone, which he has done multiple times now with me being the only one calling him on it?

yes annnnnnnnnd....that makes you scummy (see comments above).

Being wrong does not make someone scummy. What is this gak?

Ray gave a decent effort to find scum. You totally ignored it just like you are totally undermining my suspicions towards you.

Please quote Ray's decent efforts by time/date. I'll agree he started scumhunting, the instant he did I started talking to him (and it was about BF - y'know, the guy it's scummy I suspect), then I logged off, and then later that day he was hammered. He didn't do any scumhunting prior to that though. Please prove me wrong.

My suspicions of you are at least or more valid (hint...they are more) than the case you pushed day 1 on Ray.

I would hope so - they're Day 2 suspicions.
They're less than my reasons for blindfaeth though, as long as we're keeping track of aspects that have little merit to proving the validity of a case.

Can I get credit for the #1 slot if you begin tracking the 'Thor iz alivez!' tell?

Sure, I think outside of a Newbie this is the first time its ever been used on me.

So your counter to my opinion that you being alive supports you being scum is that scum would rather keep you alive if you were town because you push bad cases? Because you do not know what you are doing? If you weren't scum and I were scum...I would think being wrong on one occasion would not indicate further bad play. And to be able to rid you in a mislynch would be much better than having to (in a wolve's case) use a kill on you or in mafia's case...have no other way of getting rid of you.

Which seems to defeat your argument of why it's scummy I'm alive. The entire argument is silly at its core.

[Thor665]

My point is your play day 1 was crap and totally benefitted scum. Tunnelling in the extreme and an unwillingness to consider others until someone actually called you out for your play (BF)..who then became suspect IYO.

He also became suspect in Ray's eyes - y'know, Ray that paragon of pure town whom none should question in your universe.
Why have you expressed no opinion on my Ray case or his constant flip-flops from suspecting someone to sheeping someone, which he has done multiple times now with me being the only one calling him on it?

On my *blindfaeth* case.
Derp.

[Thor665]

By that same logic you're OMGUSing me.
I don't think that tell means what you think it means.

[Thor665]

I'd like to point out that only ONE player was willing to come out and call blindfaeth town (and so town that I am scummy for suspecting him, even!)
Still waiting for an explanation of that read.
Still waiting for anyone else to call him town.
This is so obvious it hurts.

[Thor665]

And hey, my favored wagon just gained some momentum, so

Just in support of Sky's call - when did you tell us this was your favored wagon?

[Thor665]

@BB - if CMPunk is scummy for buddying me - then why are you voting me? Do you think he looks scummy because he's buddying scum? Because...

[Thor665]

@BBmolla - I still have an outstanding request to you to actually explain that townread on blindfaeth. If it's so obvious that I'm scummy for suspecting him surely you can actually explain it?

Re: CM - didn't you already ask me this? Someone asked this exact question to me (or maybe it was about fool) Let me explain again - and if it was you who asked before then I hate you.

Two groups of three were on the Ray wagon, the early voters and the late voters. I believe there is at least one scum in each group of three. *however* one of the groups of three contains TWO Townreads - therefore I believe my accuracy in picking scum from that group of three is substantially higher.
blindfaeth is in that group of three.
CM is in the other group of three.

Would I lynch CM? Yeah.
Would I rather lynch him today than me? Definitely.
Do I think he's the best chance to hit scum today? No, I do not.

Hence my current vote.

[Thor665]

@Thor: I'd like you to go more in depth about why you think he's a likely scumspect.

To suss it out clearly - I already said this in my first post of the day when I described the wagon and the chances of scum on it. There were two three person groups - he was in one of them, hence he is a scumspect. That's really the beginning and the end of my scum read on him.

I think CM-Town would imply Thor-Town a little bit, but I don't know if CM-Scum would imply Thor-Scum.
Oh, and I think CM-Scum implies DK-Town. Possibly.

Thoughts?

This is a multi-scum game.

Also, another question for those not voting CM, what makes CM townier than the person you are currently voting?

Because blindfaeth is in a three person group with two players I consider pretty likely town - thus dramatically increasing his chance to be scum from that group as compared to CM who is in with Fool and DK in a derptastic newbie/scum/wtf playstyle sludge fest that I'm hoping I don't actually have to try to figure out.

Oh hey - look, I ALREADY ANSWERED THIS FOR BB!

Thanks for reading, BB, thanks for asking derp repetitive questions and acting like I'm avoiding discussing CM when "lol, Thor/CM scumteamz because Thor ain't talking about CM"

Also - it's a scumteam with him buddying me? Egads sir, seriously?

BB is still a town read, but egads...

@BB - this is a pretty good reason for me to continue to ignore your 'blindfaeth iz the t0wnz!' issue too. Seriously, you better explain that read, please, it will make my universe a happier place.

[Thor665]

Also, via my iso, I answered that CM question two other times - once for havingfitz, and once WHEN I VOTED BLINDFAETH! Reading - it is pro-town.

[Thor665]

His overall play is very townlike. His cases have been solid and well thought out, and overall just seems town to me.
I mean, there aren't specific towntelling phrases that he drops, it's just how he is playing screams town.

His "cases"?
Seriously?

Day one he sheeped Ray on me, then I posted a case on Ray and he insta flipped and suddenly was sheeping me against the guy he'd previously been sheeping.
Could you quote one of his "solid and thought out cases" for me?

I really want to see this, if I'm looking scummy for suspecting this obv. town guy.

Your CM read just seems to be PoE, and I hate PoE.

It is PoE - which is more than the current CM case, fyi

I'm not voting Blindfaeth. However, if you vote CMPunk, I will unvote you, and vote CMPunk.
If you truly think he's scum vote him.

If not, my vote remains on you.

Do you think I'm a wuss or intentionally willing to play bad? This is terrible. Answer some of the above stuff first, maybe we'll get back to this at that point.

[Thor665]

Even havingfitz is capable of admitting that blindfeath looks scummy (he's just trying to bury him near the end of his suspect list). Again, this isn't rocket science.

Yo, fitz, no response to my rebuttal of the 'case' on me from you?
At the very least you should be leaping at that date/time request since that would sink scumThor, yeah? Instead...continued zombie walk. ...are you better than this? I want to know before I accuse you

[Thor665]

Scum tunnel too though - it can help limit relational reads.

I'm tunneling due to awesomeness though.

[Thor665]

I'd like Thor and Blindfaeth to make a huge case on the other, linking to any previous cases they made as well.

I refuse to make the case huge.

Here's the case;

Yesterday roars in, calls me scum *for my case on Ray*.
I repeat my case on Ray and claim it's not scummy.
He quick switches and suddenly votes for Ray *based on my case*.
Ray and I both note this and admit it's awkward (so even if you think I'm dumb and terrible with cases and Ray is awesome, we both saw the same thing).
Ray is lynched.
blindfaeth enters today and calls me scummy for my case on Ray, a case he sheeped, and a case that convinced him Ray was scum and I was townish enough to sheep is now a case so bad I need to be lynched.
Somewhere in there as my wagon goes nowhere and CM's picks up he gets off me and votes CMPunk for reasons no one understands (hint: further sheeping of others).
As the CM wagon slows and Thor distrust picks up - suddenly he recalls I find CM scummy (something I said in my first post of the day) Unvotes based on that, and revotes me.
His extent of defense for this is that I am OMGUSing him (never mind I've been voting him all day, even after he got off me).
He's scum - lynch please.

Also - PoE on Ray wagon.

I've said this before, if you want to see where you can iso me as well as I can iso myself.

[Thor665]

So you're content with a no lynch?

Are you? You're as culpable as CM in that regard.

[Thor665]

@The Fool - I think it's quite possible - but I'm already halfway to a lynch on blindfaeth and I consider him a superior lynch. If Sky sits on the smaller wagon and ignores the two bigger ones than he is just as much to blame for a no lynch as CM who is also voting a small wagon.

[Thor665]

How about a short case on me? I'd be fascinated to see it.
Or maybe a rebuttal of my case on you?
Or an admission to being scum. I'll take any of the three.

[Thor665]

@fitz - the only part of your rebuttal that is worth anything is the comment that I admit Ray started scumhunting. But that's a bit weaksauce.

1. You're accussing me of being after him for not scumhunting when he was scumhunting all the time (I happily disagree with this, and asked you to provide time/date stamps of his early scumhunting posts I should have been excited by).

2. I admit he started scumhunting (I've admitted it before) but the time I think he started doing this was Sun, Aug 7th, 5:30 pm. You'll note the only post I have to him post that timeframe is agreeing with his call and asking him some further thoughts on it.

Within 2 hours of that, blindfaeth does another quick flipflop and suddenly votes Ray. Then within the next ten hours (which would be the middle of the night and dead early in the morning my time) DK hammers, and Mod does the flip and thread lock.

So, with him at L-2 and me seeing my first glimmerings of scumhunting you're saying it's scummy I didn't unvote him to mull? (and you are blatantly ignoring that I *was* considering blindfaeth at that point, and *was* discussing his reads with him) and, with that being scummy for me you've not made any advances about blindfaeth's flipflop voting, which I have called out repeatedly, and you have a glaring example staring right at you there in the center of your vague Thorscum case.

And I felt you were burying him, because in your scumspects you listed all three of the big wagons, and listed his last.

[Thor665]

I posted other times in other games you mean - you don't allocate time to various games? Yeah, sure. At least you're not suggesting I was there for the hammer. Also - it's *super* unfair to suggest that just because I thought he'd started scumhunting I should have unvoted him - even in the post where I'm responding to his scumhunting I'm obviously still having issues with him and calling him out for various actions. Could you clarify for me, what was the pro-town thing I was supposed to do if I saw blindfaeth's post - and why it applies to me and no one else who was voting on that wagon...yeah...

Could you restate your case on me again - I'd be fascinated to hear it.

[Thor665]

My timezone is very clearly stated in my Location.
I'm not redirecting to them except insomuch as why you're applying the tell to me and not to them. I would think you'd have no problem explaining that since it's something you've already done.
Tunneling is so far from scummy that it's silly. Your case is terrible and your reasons for being on me are sketchy and uncertain.

You want my case on Ray?

Here
And while we're at it - I'll also Take credit for Ray's call even being voiced on blindfaeth

[Thor665]

Man, actually looking back fitz's case makes even less sense to me - blindfaeth had been on Ray, and basically hopped off for the period of less than a day to vote whisper for gawd's knows why reasons, so the only real change was DonJosh managed to come over to the Ray wagon (something I'd been working on for days) and then blindfaeth comes galumphing back and all of a sudden I'm supposed to scream like a girl and unvote?

What is the tell here, fitz? You also appear to think I was tunneling on him, but have an issue with me not unvoting him - town or scum if I was tunneled on him I'd be *very* happy with him at L-1, and you should be well aware of my attitude towards L-1 since we've been in a Newbie together fairly recently. So, because of *one* post I'll agree is scumhunting (that I initiated him talking about) I was supposed to unvote immediately at L-1? Seriously? Why?

[Thor665]

@fitz - you're claiming I'm scum because I had a decent wagon run up on me and the wolves didn't kill me? This makes sense in your head?

Vote: Deity Kabuto

I'm still thinking Josh is town.

[Thor665]

fitz...the scum are not aligned in this game.
Plus, it was hardly a surprising and shocking switch of events that got blindfaeth lynched over me - he was a strong contender wagon for the entire run of the day.

My case on DK is PoE.
CM is a less optimal lynch because the three person set he was in had a scum flip from it. The other has not yet and is down to a two person set - you really think there is no scum there? I would wager hefty money on it right now, and I think DK looks worse than Don Josh because I've tagged town tells from the latter and not so much the former.

[Thor665]

Oh, and fitz, I'm not sure if you're better than this

[Thor665]

If seer isn't breadcrumbing than I hate seer. Probably a full claim should only happen with a wolf find, but seer clears could be helpful moving forward because tomorrow, if we're still looking at two wolves that's lylo if another mafia bites it. So, the seer better have been breadcrumbing like a gangsta is all I'm saying.

@DonJosh - why so certain of multiple scum in that particular clump?

[Thor665]

@whispersilk - did my last post cause that particular barrage, or do you have evidence you'd like to present towards the obviousness of my scummitude?

[Thor665]

Because fitz is really bad at bussing and hasn't made a real case yet.

[Thor665]

Not true...at one point you had him four votes to his one.

Seriously fitz. Seriously? Yeah, keep working that one.

Also, I realize scum are not aligned...what's your point?

Part of your case on me is that I am scum because otherwise all the scum would have pushed to lynch me. Even if I am scum that only gives you 1-2 extra bodies to be pushing against my lynch. If it was 5, and they had actual ability to control the lynch, your issue here might hold serious water. As stands, I was run up quite aggressively and impressively for your shoddy case, and if we want to talk about where scum are - let's examine where most of the votes are right now and on what logic...hmmm...yeah...

I suppose PoE is better than nothing but the fact you expressed more suspicions towards CM and have skipped over him for

someone who appears to have bailed on the site/game

is uber scummy IMO.

Me "jumping" over CM is quite well explained by me yesterday, and even today. We had a scum flip in his set of three, we haven't in the other set. If you think PoE is potentially functional at least pretend to understand it when you accuse me of something.

Because fitz is really bad at bussing and hasn't made a real case yet.

Are you saying I'm bussing you? If not...what do you mean?

Shhhh - you told me we weren't supposed to talk about that in thread, only in the QT. (I may have been being sarcastic about her case - I dunno, check and get back to me)

And I have presented my case on you several times. It's better than anything you had on BF and now on DK.

Thor case restated

- Thor is scum for his unmitigated D1 tunnelling on Ray.

*cough*
Yeah - tunneling - the ultimate scum tell. Allow me to present my rejoinder to the case.

[Thor665]

And the derp wagon continues.
Yeah, this is totally town driven, fer'sure.

[Thor665]

Ugh. I should have just gone with my gut yesterday.

Thor's case was good, and he has been consistently good today. I wanted to see if Blind could create a case that could match up to it or top it. However he managed to choose choice C by saying "lol brb tomorrow guis "

Ugh.

@BB - at one stage yesterday not only did I sell you on town me enough to unvote - but to eventually agree with my reads.
What caused the changeup?

Also - what is your read on DK and fitz?


@DK -

[Thor665]

My vote on you mainly has to do with the BF town flip. I said earlier that I don't think that you guys are on the same side, and I still don't.

Why do you believe this?
Because town doesn't know who is on their side, and if you agree that my case on BF was good and had town logic to it then...

I'm unsure of fitz. I don't think you two are on the same side, but that doesn't neccesarily make him town.

Egads, the tells, they hurt my soul.

[Thor665]

4 scum left are thor, fitz, sky and DJ.

What's the case for DonJosh scum? I don't see it at all.

[Thor665]

Because scum would much rather mislynch me than bus/mislynch CM? That would be my guess.

[Thor665]

The inherent blindness of fitz's case is trying to desperately wave and make him admit it exists in that last vote count.
I predict more sturm and drang though.

[Thor665]

I'm really not going to get any DK support at all, am I? Nobody is even discussing him as a suspect - this concerns me.

[Thor665]

@Sky - would you back this play?

Unvote: DK
Vote: havingfitz

I feel more confident with that then I do for Punk.

[Thor665]

We just had one scum lynched from the three player block - so it downshifts the likelihood of more scum being there because 2 of the other 4 scum probably wouldn't have been that tight onto their buddy. So, if CM is a Wolf I'm reasonably in support of the lynch idea in general, but I'm guessing only one Wolf was even on that wagon, and there's a smaller pool if we're hunting wolves. If we're hunting mafia I'd like to lynch either DK or DonJosh.

[Thor665]

*hunting wolves off the wagon.

[Thor665]

What blindness? You have been the main advocate of two mislynches and your actions D1 WRT Ray still reek. Please type slowly for me and explain what the post above refers to and feel free to include a reason other than OMGUS for your vote on me

Blindness 1 - your case is based on "lol - leading mislynces = scum which is so far removed from sanity that it's starting to honk me off. You think I cant show you a game where I was town and led two mislynches in a row? Really? REALLY!?! You think I couldn't find a town game of yours where you were on two mislynches in a row?

2. The other blindness is that your case is based off of "lol, scum iz Thor because otherwise people would be more eager to lynch Thor" and here we are with your craptacular case and a wagon of sheep.

Also - DK is lurking but still had time to pop in and support wagon?
Eyes fitz - eyes. You're scum for intentional blindness...and OMGUS.

the contradiction in bold below posted within a fairly short timeframe by Thorscum....

Oh my gawd fitz, how bad do you think I am?
There is no contradiction there - I have very clearly shown PoE for the Josh/DK logic of why one of them is mafia - whether or not I personally have a town read on Josh has very little to do with where I think we should be lynching if we want to lynch mafia except insomuch as I've clearly stated I'd rather lunch DK first. There is no contradiction there at all and I proudly claim both statements as mine.

LOL that's hilarious. Good catch fitz.

You need to start stepping up your game - seriously. Explain how there is a contradiction there, I'd like to see you do so. Explain my logic and the contradiction inherent in it. Please, do so now.

[Thor665]

Your case on Josh isn't my case on Josh - otherwise I could see it.
My case on Josh is he's town, but by PoE is pretty likely to be Mafia - but I think DK is far more likely...so...yeah.

Contradiction? Where am I worming at all?

[Thor665]

@havingfitz and whisper;

"If we're hunting mafia I'd like to lynch either DK or DonJosh."

"My case on DK is PoE.
CM is a less optimal lynch because the three person set he was in had a scum flip from it. The other has not yet and is down to a two person set - you really think there is no scum there? I would wager hefty money on it right now, and I think DK looks worse than Don Josh because I've tagged town tells from the latter and not so much the former."

There is not a contradiction there. You're squinting and twisting your heads and saying there is one there, but there isn't.

@whisper;
I would rank it thusly

3. Sky - possible scum, leaning town.
4. DeityKabuto - likely scum, highly likely mafia
5. BBmolla - unlikely mafia, reasonably likely wolf not likely scum if CM is scum
6. CMPunk - unlikely mafia, reasonably likely wolf not likely scum if BB is scum
7. havingfitz - likely scum, strong mafia suspect
8. whispersilk - possible scum, unlikely fitz partner.
9. DonJosh - likely town, immensely strong chance of scum if DK is town

What's your ranking?

@whisper's hammer request - derp, even if I am scum I only have one buddy so...you're derping the heck out of that tell.

[Thor665]

Actually, hell, you're functionally calling at least three people off the wagon obvious town while you're sitting on it...derp, derp the tell, huh? That actually shows that there is a *higher* chance of scum ON the Thor wagon as off it. Yeah, party on, push this sucker through - and then lynch the hell out of the wagon.

[Thor665]

But there is zero reason for at least one of those players not to be excited to hammer me. Mafia would be happy to lynch a wolf and wolves would be happy to lynch a mafia.
So at least one of those three is obviouslly not scum.
At that point 50% of the people voting me are scum regardless of if I am scum or not.
And this even presumes my "buddy" (who you say is fitz) isn't bussing me. So at that stage there are actually two obvious towns amongst the people you're saying are obvious scum because if I'm mafia/wolf that means *both* of the opposite scum team are refusing to vote me? You are derping this tell to high heaven.

Also, my list of scumspects is as good/better than yours. Yes, it's less clear - but that's because I'm actually scumhunting over here and all of my relational tells make sense.
My clears are also stronger and surer than any of yours will be.

Like - try to explain why DK and BB are town, in your own case? I bet your answer will be "gut" and though that's fine, it's hardly so amazing that I look like a lesser man for having less clear reads on my town tells.

[Thor665]

@Whisper - actually - do me a favor and also tell me if I'm a wolf or a mafia. With my scum reads I can provide that information. Like fitz, you're just sort of vaguely hunting "scum" with no concept of how each flip is affecting chances of players being wolves or mafia - and come tomorrow that is going to be *very* important.

[Thor665]

Your reads and your tells suck, Thor

Don't be a witch. At the very least admit that being wrong isn't scummy - at that point you need to show why my cases where inherently scummy. No one has done that yet - they're just harping on how I was wrong.

I'm done believing anything you have to say, and if all the people off your wagon are town, then why the hell are they not thinking like me and voting for your obv scum Smurf.

Because the case is Swiss cheese like in the number of holes in it?
Seriously - tell me I'm wrong, here's the case for Thorscum;

Thor lead two lynches (not opportunistically slid on, but led two lynches) on two players...and they were both town! Because, Thor is too good to be wrong *twice*
Also...Thor has a *contradiction* and...*contradiction*...ignore further discussion on this...CONTRADICTION!
Also, people aren't hammering Thor yet and/or weren't eager enough to get him lynched (depending on if you ask Whisper or fitz for their opinion of how it breaks down) this is scummy because if he was town this lynch would be super easy...because of this case...which is based on the super easiness...

Where am I wrong about that being the case? Maybe add in "tunneling" (the ultimate scumtell) and that's what you've got.
Seriously now.

I think there is one scum from the other scum team on your wagon, and the other is off, and I think your scum buddy is off.

That would at least make sense.

So...now, I know MY reads suck and I'm terrible.
But you...ah...you didn't respond to me about whether I was wolf or mafia, I'd be fascinated to see that. Because you *did* re-read the flipped scum and look for partner/lack of partner evidence to support your various scum reads, right?

I'm sorry, but there is hella motivation to do what he did, because it ended in two town being lynched, and scum want everyone but themselves dead, and he piled on the WIFOM to try and get out of it.

But certainly the on me is free of WIFOM, right?
This is silly.

@BB - explain your Scum read on me, that's as interesting to me as CM's town read...and should be of more interest to more people as we move this thing forward.

[Thor665]

You're good at arguing/convincing. Which stopped you from getting lynched yesterday. Not again.

Yes, how dare what I say "make sense" we better ignore that stuff.

The contradiction with DonJosh only adds to it. That read very much as "lynch anyone but me."

It isn't a contradiction.
I've been very clear about who I want to lynch and why, and it isn't "anyone but me" though, derp, I don't support lynching me obviously.

And Blind flipping town only reinforces my DK town read, I'd like to throw this out there.

How in the universe does town blind equate to Thor scum and DK town in a two scumteam setup?

Not only does Fool, whose confirmed scum, defend Thor, but CMPunk follows and does the exact same thing.
That is in addition to CM's town read on Thor, and Thor refusing to vote CM.

That actually increases the liklihood that CM and Fool *aren't* aligned.
Also, please look at any scum game I have - I'm a bussing mo'fo' (in which case people should sheep me anyway, really)

[Thor665]

If you think I bus when I am in trouble how come I can't get any backup on a fitz lynch?

Also;
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&t=17331
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17742

Those are two town games with me leading lynches loud and proud.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=17650
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&t=17533

Here are two scum games with me lurking and sheeping and following the heard.

In other words - I don't think the meta case means jack or spit. I lead if there are no leaders, and I tend not to lead if I like the leaders, but it certainly has nothing to do with me being scum or not.

@whisper - I did ask you to let me know if I was wrong in my summation of the case on me. By silence do I take it I pegged it perfectly? Because that's not a case to be proud of - nothing is really a scumtell. At least go with you're lynching me for PoE or something because at least that's a defensible position.

[Thor665]

@Sky - if you think DK is more likely scum than me you wanna vote that way? I'll back that wagon.

@fitz - no, I didn't already do that. Ignoring my explanation doesn't magically cancel it - if it was such an obvious derp contradiction then how come at least 2 o fthe 3 people not voting me aren't excited by it? Because it's not a contradiction at all, and you're playing it up for the mislynch while avoiding dealing with how I've pointed out the entire case is bunk and bull. I'd also call you scummy for tunneling...but I actually don't think that's scummy. Fascinating that you do, yet there you are doing it. Hey...look...an *actual* contradiction.

[Thor665]

What do you think of my commentary about wolf/mafia hunting and how it relates to CMPunk as a viable lynch candidate for today?

[Thor665]

@Sky - if you think DK is more likely scum than me you wanna vote that way? I'll back that wagon.

Other than your own...which wagon don't you support?

CM.

Other than that I've advanced two wagons and the entire rest of town has advanced two. I've commented on them all.

What's your read on DK and CM and their wagons?

What I have a problem with is latching on to a player early in D1 and then "blindly" tunnelling that player up to their mislynch...which is what you did.

Yeah, because in Day 1 I should really be considering all the other valuable information available to me

[Thor665]

I've changed my mind... notice of intent to hammer Thor when I get back home

::shrug:: claim town I guess?

Definitely a scum heavy wagon on me.
Fitz is a top suspect for reasons stated.
Whisper is highly unlikely partner to fitz, so if he flips scum she's highly likely town in just a general sense.
One of DK/DonJosh is almost definitely scum - they need to be lynched.
BB needs more attention too - his presence on wagons and pushes over the last few days in general is suspect.
CM is probably not mafia - he might be a wolf angling for town points in the defense of me, but I personally kinda doubt it.

Catch you all flip side where, mostly, I'll mock fitz

[Thor665]

Like you are doing so now?

Careful, you might be scumhunting there.

::facepalm::

[Thor665]

@Whisper - considering what I'll flip and how I've been saying for a while he's scum and you just noticed - I reckon I have as much right as anyone.

@fitz
1. Already stated, fitz, get over your bad self.
2. Because of the other locations scum need to be - why, planning to mislynch her later?
3. Yes, PoE, as clearly explained already.
4. Hurm...
5. Because he's obviously not mafia and if Wolves wanted me dead they could have just shot me - derp.

[Thor665]

PoE = process of elimination.

As regards CM specifically - he voted to hammer a town immediately adjacent to a now proven Mafia. On average scum tend to naturally distance themselves in voting, at least a touch, from their buddies. Therefore, due to his presence next to Fool it is fairly unlikely that CM is Mafia. Now, he may be scum, but if he's scum he's a wolf, and in the general sense of today, due to lack of being mafia, he would not be a good lynch today since he's overall less likely scum than someone else.

Make sense?

And, he *might* be scum buddying me. But, if so, his reverse is pretty weird as it functionally throws out all the "gains" he would have made from buddying me. Therefore, again, in general he's less likely scum.

Later whisper will tell you my inability to go "he's obv. town" makes me scummy (nothing but love whisper - but mocking post game will happen if you're town. If you're scum I grok the play)

I strongly think a fitz or DK lynch should happen today. I'd settle for Josh, but I don't think that's as likely to serve us.

[Thor665]

Hey, if I'm wrong, then you're welcome to mock me all you want afterwards. But it's not only the fact you've led two townies to their death, it's also your attitude right now that grates me. If I was about to be lynched today, I'd be kicking and screaming and doing everything in my power to stop it. But hey, that's just me.

The core flaws in your read are right here.

1. It's scummy to be calm (?)
2. Thor was calm when scum...I have no idea how he reacts when town (hint: calm) ...therefore he is scum now.
3. I would be freaking out, lack of freak out equates to scum because clearly the way whisper would react is the way any town in general would react.

None of that makes me scummy in any way, shape, or form.

@CM - DK is the one eager for the lynch. Also: fitz.

I'm up for lynching BB, DJ or DK.

Then vote DK, I'll be on that one in a second.
What's your call on BB? I'm not happy with the slot, but I see no reason to promote him above DK or fitz - or even DonJosh really.

[Thor665]

Also, whisper, I am doing everything in my power to prevent my lynch.

Also;

V/LA Sat-Sun, this weekend expect nothing of me.

[Thor665]

I have DK lynch blueballs now - thank you very much.

[Thor665]

@BB - big talk for a man who never really explained his Thor "case"

@fitz - oh, gawd, this is terrible. If you're not scum you are officially hurting my soul with your play. If you are scum could you at least fake better or something? Could you explain your CMPunk issue? Because you just put the final nail in the Thorscum case to cast Punk into clear leaderboard position, and you've been on me so long I clearly missed your CM case. Help?

@DK ...uh...yeah...remember how I always said I'd be fascinated to see your late game play. I don't find it any different from your Day 1 play. Kudos to you on that...

It should be of no surprise really that we have so many "flash wagons" happening. There are a whole lot of scum to sway things around, and I suspect they are excitedly following each other and a few derp town. No one is even paying attention to these wagons to draw some conclusions from the action. You all did notice Punk's and Sky's play around the L-1 Thor wagon, right? Are any of you actually taking in that information and processing it into your other cases? (I have a $5 prediction on that one...). I am getting a headache trying to figure out what other people are thinking, and I think it's problematic because even the other town aren't really connecting too many dots right now.

@Everyone (except fitz) - your read on fitz, please. Specifically I want to know if you think he's town/scum. As an addition to that I want to know, if you suspect him of being scum, what type of scum you suspect him of.

@Everyone (including fitz) - your current vote - is that a mafia or a wolf you're voting for? You really should be able to provide some of this information if you actually have a functional case by this stage.

[Thor665]

@fitz - I never accussed you of faking anything other than as a general request for your scum play to include better faking, so...good reading comprehension.

You think CM is probable Mafia as much as Wolf considering his location on the Day 1 wagon in relation to Fool?

[Thor665]

@Thor...good reading comprehsion yourself. My point was you were insinuating I was faking something if you are saying I could "fake better," wit my point being there is nothing for me to be faking. If you aren't insinuating that I am faking something then don't infer I need to "fake better."

If...then is a fairly common linguistic method. I stand by my commentary.

What's the deal with Fool/Punk that I asked you about? I'd make another joke about reading comprehension, but I'll just suppose rage at me made you forget to respond to everything.

[Thor665]

He is playing like DK always plays - I certainly see no discernable fluxuation between this and his town play whic I have experienced in the past. The point making him actually scummy is the PoE.

[Thor665]

The hammer on DonJosh? Meh.

How about everyone who's voting him for being "obv. scum" explain the case to me. Outside of PoE he's one of my strongest current town reads, so I'm not a big fan of this with everything that is DK smacking me in the face. I'd especially like to see BB's case, since he's been feeling really case-less today. lus whisper already owes me this case from like...forever and last Tuesday ago.

@CM - what's your read on fitz? I don't think I ever got it.

[Thor665]

@CM - you're missing a scum.

@DK - I've done this repeatedly today (and think it's as recent as 3-4 pages back) - so no.

[Thor665]

@Sky - but would Punkscum go to the wall for Thor like earlier today? Pretty much everyone and their uncle was calling me scummy, and even if she was scum she could have thought I was scum on the other side, and shifted her vote easily enough with re-readings over night. I do know it's a bit silly, there were probably two scum off me as well as on me, but I sort of feel CM is scum "because" as opposed to any particular reasons. I did a skim for a CM Punk = scum case and didn't find anything, and that sort of self-fulfilling case tends, in my opinion, to crop up on town more often then scum.

Where I'm leaning is this;


Thor wagon: havingfitz, whispersilk, BBmolla, DeityKabuto <-- two scum here more than likely
blindfaeth wagon: whispersilk,

TheFool

, Sky, BBmolla, CMPunk <--probably one (maybe two) more here
Ray wagon:

TheFool

, CMPunk, BBmolla, DonJosh,

blindfaeth

, DeityKabuto <--probably one (maybe two or three) more here

Punk, whisper, and Sky (and myself if you want to include me in those lists) are less likely mafia.
Whispersilk and fitz are unlikely scumbuddies.
There's probably been a couple of other hard busses that would rule out other buddies, but a lot of people in this game have been aggressive and flagrant enough with their voting I'm not confident on any at this stage.
I *really* like the BB, and DK slots for possible scum, their locations suggest scum slinkage and proper positioning to my mind. Fitz is a high suspect for me because for someone grumping about tunneling and narrow focus - he is the epitome of that, and he's been *super* dodgy about explaining his reads and no one but me seems to notice, which is probably how he's getting away with it, quite frankly.

[Thor665]

Thor, your vote isn't doing any good on havingfitz.

Would it do good on you?

[Thor665]

How about you explain the CM case to me? I'm missing it.

[Thor665]

Virtual bearded lap dance to first person who mans up enough to explain either case to me.

[Thor665]

This is your chance to actually explain your vote switch and the case you've been promising for days as opposed to sticking to the lollercoaster of fitz logic that says I'm really excited to see DJ lynched, which I have been very clear and functional about stating my views on despite your intentional efforts to ignore half of what I say and take the rest out of context.

[Thor665]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUU-

[Thor665]

The case for CMPunk is there in every post she writes.

There's no way that's a good case then. I've never seen scum who are so bad that every post is scummy.
It doesn't concern you that no one can even point to a functional CM=scum case?
I almost never make cases, and even I seem to have generated larger cases. At least if someone was going 'PoE off Thor's stuff' we could have a discussion about the CM question. But everybody is just kind of grunting and saying CM is scum...feels like a mislynch to me. What's your take?

@DK - Fire, go die in it.

[Thor665]

Good job fitz - you have proven the lollercoaster once again.

For starters, even in your bold you're ignoring the "if we're hunting mafia" part of that line, and also ignoring how I've previously indicated strong preference for lynching DK first of the pair.

Second off - WHAT'S THE CASE FOR DONJOSH THAT THE REST OF YOU ARE USING, BECAUSE YOU ALL MOCK MY POE SO *CLEARLY* YOU'RE NOT USING THAT SO WHETHER OR NOT MY POE MAKES ME THINK HE'S VIABLE MAFIA DOES JACK AND SPIT TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK HE'S SCUM - DERPY-DOO-DAH-DINGLEHEADS!

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, or *are* you guys using my PoE and just disagree with which one I think should go first...and are all sheeping my logic despite wanting to lynch me earlier...and are obvious scum...and by "you" I mostly mean fitz, but, yes.

[Thor665]

@fitz - serious question, do you believe anyone voting DJ besides whisper just now, has functionally made a case on him? (and you're silly and I've made my case - so read m0ar)

[Thor665]

Good job fitz - you have proven the lollercoaster once again.

For starters, even in your bold you're ignoring the "if we're hunting mafia" part of that line, and also ignoring how I've previously indicated strong preference for lynching DK first of the pair.

So are you saying when you said you didn't see any scum case on DJ that you actually meant there wasn't a wolf case on him? But there was a mafia case? Cause that's what it looks like you are saying.

I'm not ignoring anything. You are tap dancing and having a hard time not tripping over your beard. You say DJ is not scum but then you say he's your lynch choice, along w/ DK, if we're hunting mafia. BULLSHIT

^?????????????

When I say that comment in bold above - as clearly indicated by my posts today, this is what I man.

1. I have a case on DJ - it is not a case I aprticularly am super excited about.
2. I have no fething idea what anyone else's case is.
3. Some dork named fitz, who apparently doesn't support the case on DJ (mine or the nonexistent other case) is pressuring me about not hammering my "suspect" despite me repeatedly pointing out that when I listed him as a suspect it was clearly in deference to the DK part of the case which I've repeatedly tried to make happen and have been told it's a scumtell by said dork (fitz) because I was picking on an easy wagon, and now, invariably, I'm going to be scum for ignoring this easy wagon...also, fitz is scum.
4. Makes sense?

Also Thor...I have not considered DJ one of my primary suspects so to be honest I have not looked at the reasons people have been voting him and therefore could not tell you what their cases are. Ask them.

Read more, that's what I've been doing.
I also asked for your case on CM, which you won't give, and got confused that you wanted DJ lynched considering how you've been pressing me to do it. And yet, you are not thought of as scum by anyone for reasons that escape me.

I do know you were ok with his lynch but now appear to have gone on the offensive towards those voting him. Seems a bit hypocritical.

As long as you don't read anything I say and continue to present half of a case as though it's my whole case,

yes, it's hypocritical

(the part in italics will be the totality of fitz's next push on me.

And why are you voting me again?

I'll tell you when you explain your case on CM.

This despite your apparent suspicions towards DJ and DK. And BB?? Which reminds me...

Lastly, as for your *really* like wagons of BB and DK....I know you suspect DK for your foolproof PoE...but when did BB become a *really* good suspect to you? Iirc you were anointing him town earlier in the game. WTF?

[/quote]
Yes, because scum reads nebver change, and my expressed opinions about him today never happened because you ignore anything that isn't part of your clear and narrowminded push.

[Thor665]

@Punk - I have given functional reasons to vote fitz. You should vote fitz.

Or you could turn around that "explain the case" accussation you just made, and explain your DJ case - that would be good for a chuckle.

[Thor665]

There are 3 people on that DJ wagon not explaining gak.

I don't expect anything from DK, because he's fairly obv. scum.
CMs last posts where in this thread, and though there's a bit of hypocrisy there I'm not in full on rage.
But BB is posting actively in other games.

@CM wagon - any interest at all in going for DK, fitz or BB? I think any of the three are a smarter bet than the CM or DJ wagons, and at the moment I'm basically dorking around because I can either hammer DJ or support the CM wagon and try to get one of the derps off DJ, and the only derp on DJ making sense is the one who has actually tried to put together a functional case, so I'm pretty sure she's both town and fairly committed. If I can't get any motion elsewhere I'll go ahead and vote CM and we can play the obnoxious game that is deadline chicken with our wagons - but I think it's a mistake.

[Thor665]

while staying away from his earlier DJ lynch interest very funny.

You have no idea how to read.
You have no idea how to read.
You have no idea how to read.

I don't even remember who the other person who actually nuthugged onto that read was, but even they've dropped it now. This doesn't register on your radar though because you're skimming scum.

[Thor665]

@Rest of game - do *any* of you think I was seriously advocating a DJ lynch at any time today, or yesterday. C'mon, show them cards. Then tell me what is up with fitz while keeping a straight face.

[Thor665]

So Thor, you don't think DJ is scummy, even after reading my case?

I don't think your case is as good as you think it is, no.
You call him out for votehopping between two stated scumreads (oooh!) I'm not actually sure where you're going with the Ray vote/Thor town read business, but I see no glaring scummitude there. You actually show him pushing on The Fool a lot, and don't comment on whether you see it as a bussing/distance action or just a wolf with an accurate read. I think you misrepresent his attitude towards blindfaeth. And then you narc on him for being sarcastic about one of his reads being right, which actually pings as a towntell to me. Then you tag him for lurk, which is null. Is it total hogwash? Nah. But I don't see it as a homerun, and for someone who gets nervous about people who don't present cases - I present to you everyone else on that wagon.

Have you noticed fitz lately? He is scum.

That (sadly) said;

Unvote: havingfitz
Vote: CMPunk

A less egregious option between the two, and a slightly less suspect pile of wagon mates, though we're dry-humping scum either way, undoubtedly.
Also, I want to make someone hop from one wagon to the other.

[Thor665]

Ad hom becomes you Thor.

Misrepping while blindly refusing to read does not become you, dear scum.
I was reasonable my first eight times pointing out what you were doing - feel free to go back and look at them if you don't like attack posts.

[Thor665]

Color me unsurprised.

[Thor665]

@whisper - if DK is scum and you refused to back me on my case today, does that make you and fitz, and everyone else an idiot? Because I'm down with that

[Thor665]

We need mafia to claim - stat.
I want at least one mafia to claim, because if we lynch wrong then wolves win.

[Thor665]

If a mafia claims and goes uncounterclaimed I pretty much promise to sheep him...well, util night when wolves will be obligated to shoot him, natch.

[Thor665]

@Sky - it's very real, here's our situation;

There are 2 town, 2 Mafia, and 2 Wolves.

6 Players.

If we lynch town - Wolves will kill someone and win.
If we lynch mafia - Wolves will kill someone and win.

Therefore town and mafia need to work together. We get a mafia to claim, and sheep him. It is in mafia's best interest to lynch a wolf as it is town's. We lynch a wolf and both town and mafia then have a chance, and the wolves will kill the mafia because if they don't then they will lose. Therefore - town wins, mafia gets its only chance at winning, and wolves have to kill a mafia for us - win for town, win for mafia, lose for wolves.

You got a better plan?

[Thor665]

Oh, and also, we be careful on putting someone at L-2, because this is lylo for both town and mafia right now - one non-wolf lynch equates to wolf win at this stage.

[Thor665]

?

Yar, I'm Mafia, kiddo.

Town has no chance, alone btw.

Please verify this is a claim.
Then tell me who you'd like to lynch.

Also, apparently fitz is seer - so probably fullclaim of those results would be nice, (though I wouldn't mind seeing DK call out a top lynch target first )and we can rule out DK as an investigation for tonight unless he's counterclaimed. Counterclaims should also come before fitz's results - any afterwards I'll be less likely to listen to.

[Thor665]

@DK - the setup, it confuses you, doesn't it?

I was actually going to type up a post calling you a liar and try to wifom the wolves, but I don't see that helping us much at this stage. Okay, we'll play it this way - could you unvote though, I want to get the seer claim first.

@Seer/fitz - claim, targets and results please. We do need to hit this wolf accurately today or both of our factions lose. Also - since enough people have posted without countering DK's play and I just backed him you know for a fact we're the maf so we're not the smart lynch.

[Thor665]

At least taht makes me feel better about my reads - lol fitz, your case did suck!

Yes, we want the last read now, preferably before fitz gets in here.

DonJosh is probably town also, which means my reads were way more awesome then people (wolves) wanted to admit.

[Thor665]

I'm good with that - I'm totally on scumhunting and town's side...until tomorrow, brofist wolf brothers!

[Thor665]

Man, I knew Sky was super suspicious, but I'm certain my amazing reads can't be wrong. I'm certain she's going to whip out her own breadcrumbs and rub your face in them.

[Thor665]

I don't breadcrumb.

Besides, we're talking about her breadcrumbs that are catching you - we already know my role and that I'm not lying.

[Thor665]

::insert laughing and pointing::

Honestly, fitz, I'm sticking by my original reads right now, and you're looking pretty busted - thoughts?

@DK - we're not lynching him just yet, I want to see how he reacts to this and also a second punch I have waiting for him. By the by - what was your Sky=wolf case? You seemed pretty sure on that when you claimed, but I recall you and I talking fitz up in the QT (or am I fooling myself, I'm too lazy to go and look right now) C'mon, mason buddy, feed me a bit here.

[Thor665]

@havingfitz - out of curiosity, when you...y'know...had confirmed scum in DJ...um...why were you doing stuff like this;

Also Thor...I have not considered DJ one of my primary suspects so to be honest I have not looked at the reasons people have been voting him and therefore could not tell you what their cases are. Ask them.

and this?

To summarize...looking over DJ

and...this?

Unbelievable. Thor dodges another bullet.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMPunk

I mean...you *knew* he was a wolf and...sorta defended him and derped around and even avoided voting him at the end of the day when it was either CM or him as lynch and...what the hell man?

[Thor665]

EBWOP - To summarize...looking over DJ I think a Thor town or mafia flip would clear DJ. And with more scenarios favoring scum Thor I would prefer a Thor lynch to a DJ lynch.

[Thor665]

I mean, a Thor town or mafia flip clears DJ who is, as you know, a confirmed wolf...and you're the seer...WAY TO HELP TOWN!
So, basically you're a wolf or the worst seer ever, right?
I'm missing something here - help me out.

[Thor665]

You voted an unknown when an unknown was in competition for lynch with an investigation you had access to...
Even if you thought I was the second wolf and *really* wanted to avoid tipping your hand - if you thought CM was so also likely to be the second wolf - you...what the hell man?

I'm claimed mafia and this plan doesn't sound like a good one for town to do.

Walk me through it a bit more indepth - why were you so sure DJ and I were partners, and when did that change to a CM lynch over DJ known wolf?

[Thor665]

@Sky - Y U n0 breadcrum till Day 2?

[Thor665]

You voted an unknown when an unknown was in competition for lynch with an investigation you had access to...
Even if you thought I was the second wolf and *really* wanted to avoid tipping your hand - if you thought CM was so also likely to be the second wolf - you...what the hell man?

I'm claimed mafia and this plan doesn't sound like a good one for town to do.

Walk me through it a bit more indepth - why were you so sure DJ and I were partners, and when did that change to a CM lynch over DJ known wolf?

Gawds, and the "other wolf" ME was also voting CM...

[Thor665]

I'm holding off to talk this over with DK...who is sadly my sounding board at this stage
Looks like he's backing Sky and I'm backing fitz, so it should be fun.

[Thor665]

@fitz - I'm backing you because, as town, your play makes no sense. I could probably buy the push on me as you being convinced you were clever - but when the town itself managed to fumble into a DJ or CM choice - YOU PICKED THE ONE THAT WASN'T CONFIRMED SCUM. That;s either incredibly stupid, or incredibly scummy, and you should stop acting like you're remotely the slam dunk of awesome you would have me believe.

@DK - we're openly claimed scum, you don't need to keep up the active lurk

To answer when you get here - case of Sky=scum in your opinion. Also, thoughts on fitz.

[Thor665]

@Sky - why did you choose to investigate whisper Night 1?

[Thor665]

@Sky - what prompted investigating me?

Also - after investigating me you seemed to slide me pretty strongly to town but didn't do the same for whisper; reasoning?

[Thor665]

@DK...seriously dude - we're claimed scum. Please start acting like a mason with me.

@sage who should we suspect and why?

[Thor665]

@DK - THIS IS YOUR SCUMBUDDY TALKING - PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR LOGIC FOR SKY = WOLF AND FITZ = SEER BECAUSE I SEE IT AS A FAIR COINFLIP RIGHT NOW. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO STONEWALL TOWN, NOT YOUR SCUMBUDDY.

[Thor665]

@DK - WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY!?!?!?!?!?!

[Thor665]

@fitz - wasn't DJ at L-1 yesterday...

[Thor665]

@sage and DJ - could both of you stop walling it up. One of you is a wolf and should be ignored till tomorrow when we brofist it up and one of you is town and is functionally a third wheel today unless you want to hane the win to the wolves (and that would be awkward for them right now) Your wall arguements are probably not worth much to sell me - and DK is apparently not reading anything anyway...and I'd like a little less noise so maybe he'd respond to me...