Open 194- Vengeful Reasons- GAME OVER!

[HackerHuck]

Unvote

I'll read through the thread and have my comments within the next 24 hours - hopefully sooner given the number of pages to read.

[HackerHuck]

Good thing I read through before seeing those last two posts. I missed the counter-claim piece, so I probably would have claimed it all had I not seen what was going on.

I'm not the doc.

I'm going to have to reread this thing. My initial thoughts aren't lining up with the recent claims and it's late, so I want to go back through the thread again. I'm totally stumped by evil's counter of his own claim, so I'm not sure how that could make sense. However, I do want to go back over everything to see if Angel's claim stacks up.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
What does this mean?

Good thing I read through before seeing those last two posts. I missed the counter-claim piece, so I probably would have claimed it all had I not seen what was going on.
<snip>

Also, I wouldn't mind hearing your initial thoughts with a disclaimer that they would be revised with the recent claims.

I should have highlighted the word counter. I first thought you wanted me to claim everything, which was not what was discussed in thread. After re-reading, I caught that you just meant we're counter-claiming.

I didn't catch this until I updated my notes, but I tried to just add comments related to the claims without really changing my ealier notes. I went back through and reread folks in iso. It really didn't change my overall opinions on people, but it did allow me to flesh out my comments better. At first glance, I had placed people into two categories due to all of the lurking. I then took a look at postcounts to see how my impressions matched up to the volumes.

Actives:
Jackabomb 49 posts
Tracker 48 posts
EmpTyger 25 posts

Inactives:
Angelmouse 21 posts
Cat 3 posts
Memorable Raindrops 9 posts, evilsnail 12 posts
Budja 25 posts

Now in fairness, I noticed that some people felt that Cat was scummy - and not just for lurking. Given his three posts, I'd like to know what he could have done that was scummy (besides lurking).



Jackabomb-I'm not sure why he declared random voting over and done with on page two. I also don't get why he's going after Tracker for not pulling his random vote. He early insistence on pressing for lurker lynches makes no sense. With a game this small, a mislynch today means LYLO tomorrow. Jackabomb 48 is odd. I can't tell who he's trying to defend and I'm not sure why he's being so coy. I'm also curious what the scumtells are considering that MR has one post at that time. He does back off of his lurker push with a really odd post in 50 - EmpTyger comments on this in the very next post. It also seems off how he used peoples' random votes to flesh out an overall suspicion list. I had thought he might be joking about the random voting, but now he appears serious about it. I like his explanations in 69. They make up for the confusion I had earlier. I'm not sure what he's getting at in 86. The buddying comment about Budja seems to come out of the blue. I really don't get it - even after he explained it. Weird to ask the cop for a result. Night-starts are pretty unusal here and I didn't recall seeing that in the rules. Got a little defencive when called out for trying to lynch both PRs. I didn't see both unvotes immediately after the claims, but it's a stretch to say he was trying to push two lynches.

Tracker-Emptyger catches some scummy behaviour by tracker in 38. Tracker and EmpTyger then spend the next few pages arguing about it. I seem to think it's more important than EmpTyger, because he's not voting for Tracker even though he keeps pressing on it. Tracker still doesn't get where the questions are going by post 38. Unvote in post 45 is strange. Now he's got me really confused in post 52. After all of the discussion with EmpTyger about MR being scummier, he now thinks Cat is scummier in comparison. Worse, he's falling into the lynch a lurker trap. Bad idea in a game this size. You need to nip lurking in the bud by voting early and letting a wagon build up pressure. The MR discussion starts to make a little more sense now. It does seem like an honest misunderstanding, so it's not as much of a scum tell to me anymore. Nice pickup on Angelmouse in 94, but it wasn't an original thought. It seems like he's passing it off as one. He picks up a little speed around the time of MR's claim and acts appropriately for the situation. Post 135 was scummy, especially with the backtrack after Jackabomb calls him out for it. Knowing now that the claim was wrong, I'm not sure if that makes him any less scummy. Tracker goes in strong for the kill on MR, which does redeem him a bit more in my eyes.

EmpTyger-I like how he picked up on Tracker's treatment of MR vs cat & angelmouse. I don't think it's nothing like some of the others do. He actually does a good job of catching Angelmouse's wishy-washiness. I didn't catch that even on my reread of her in iso. His steady pressure of Tracker looks like good scumhunting to me. I am surprised by his post 51. Even in iso, he doesn't really make much mention of why he's so interested in Cat, or really MR, except for a small bit where he agrees with Jack/Budja. Like the other active players, he's seemingly going for the easier lynch. It must be pretty hard to understand the level of lurking when just reading through a game. I like his scumhunting, but I'm not sure why he's not talking much about who he's voting for. More recent posts tail off into the arguments/discussions with others regarding lurking. He does seem to act appropriately in response to each of the claims.

Angelmouse-I give her props for the first part of post 85. Lynching lurkers on principle is dangerous in a game this small and she defends her "wishy-washiness" pretty well. Unfortunately, she ends it poorly by pulling her random vote for no reason and trying to sling a little mud of EmpTyger for his contribution to discussion. I really don't like how she's never taken a stand on anyone until Jackabomb pressured her into the claim and now she's voting him. It seems a little OMGUSSY.

Memorable Raindrops-Late random vote doesn't really bother me. I'm more bothered by Jackabomb's response in 44. I don't like the excuse for lurking or the refusal to claim. The refusal does make some sense with the claimed role, but the last post after the claim isn't good. It seems like a lot of effort went into the claim and MR just gave up. I could see the real cop giving up after doing that, so it's a null tell.
evisnail-Backtracking on the cop claim made MR's last few posts seem even scummier. Seems to put a lot of faith into reads from pages 1 and 2. I'm not sure why they're worth mentioning unless they tie back to a more recent read. The rest of his analysis is ok, but I don't agree with the Jackabomb and Tracker pairing. He obviously is trying to recover from MR's play, but I think it's an unwinnable situation now.

Budja-I had him pegged in my inactive group, but his post count was surprisingly high. His first few posts were mostly random stuff, but then asserts the first case on the "confirmed doc" Angelmouse. I really don't like the accusation of wishy-washiness. This game is definitely not a standard setup, so risking L-1 here was likely to get a lynch from someone who didn't count well. His comment on Tracker is the opposite to me. Tracker's wishy-washiness is scummier IMO. Post 67 has his scumlist only include the three lurkers. That's a bit too easy. It's not like everyone else who's posting looks clean here. Puts a lot of faith in the wishy-washy scumtell. Interesting how he mentions Tracker a lot, but hasn't put together a case on him. I get the feeling that he's feeling out whether he should try and push a Tracker wagon at some point. I don't see those two as a pair. Still has his sights set on the three lurkers, although Angelmouse is a little more active now. I normally find that to be the easy way out, but given the numbers there's got to be a scum in that group. I would say that he's been pushing awfully hard for the Angel lynch considering his only tell is her comments way back in post 25. I like his reaction to evil, but noticed that he's remaining friendly, which is odd considering he's ok with an evilsnail lynch.

At this point, I'd be pretty happy with a lynch on evilsnail. I didn't really feel much of a case on him earlier, but the claim was off and evils reversal didn't help things. I'd be ok gambling on the vanilla townie versus scum. I'm going to hold of my vote for a couple of days though, because we got an extension and I don't want to lop off discussion after I just joined in.

[HackerHuck]

Oh. HH, I can't figure out exactly what you think of everyone(particularly me). Could you rate people on a town-ness scale of 1 through ten?

Nope,but my top two would probably be evilsnail and Tracker. I'm not sold on them as a pair though, so I'll reevaluate once we find out evil's alignment.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
I was suspicious of Cat for not doing anything to help the town and then giving an excuse for antitown behavior that didn't seem to hold up to scrutiny.

So you didn't like his excuses for not posting/lurking, or is there another anti-town behaviour you're referencing?

<snip>
I first thought you wanted me to claim everything, which was not what was discussed in thread. After re-reading, I caught that you just meant we're counter-claiming.
<snip>

Here are the posts in question:

@HackerHuck, in response to a doc claim we are having a "mass counter-claim".
If you are the doctor claim so ASAP.

HH:
Likewise, if you *aren't* the doctor claim so ASAP.
However, do *not* say either way whether you are the cop or not.

I'm having a hard time believing that someone could read those 2 posts as "claim everything". Especially someone who allegedly hadn't yet read the thread. Budja's only mentions a doctor claim/counterclaim. And he says you should claim "If you are the doctor". And I explicitly say *not* to claim cop. Am I missing something that doesn't make this just an attempt to manufacture mud at Budja and me?

You seem a little defencive. I don't know how that would be considered slinging mud at either of you. I'm the one who misread it. Your posts came at the very end of my readthrough and I had to read them both more than once to understand what you guys were talking about.

You also made a big deal about needing to reevaluate based on claims, and going to check to see if angelmouse's claim stacks up. And yet your post doesn't do that at all. How come?

I'm not sure why you consider it a big deal. When I went to do my reread, I saw that Angelmouse was cleared as the doc, so it was a moot point to evaluate her claim. I just took that into consideration when updating my notes.

[HackerHuck]

And I’m taking a closer look at your [213] and I’m noticing a much bigger problem. Here’s what you said with regard to the accusation of angelmouse being wishy-washy:

<snip>
EmpTyger- <snip> He actually does a good job of catching Angelmouse's wishy-washiness. I didn't catch that even on my reread of her in iso.
<snip>
Budja- <snip> I really don't like the accusation of wishy-washiness. This game is definitely not a standard setup, so risking L-1 here was likely to get a lynch from someone who didn't count well.
<snip>

You say the exact opposite thing about the exact same action! How on earth is it good when I call angelmouse wishy-washy, but bad when Budja does?

If you notice, I figured out what you said during my rereads in iso. Unfortunately, E follows B in the alphabet, so I caught what you said after I had gone through my Budja analysis and I didn't go back to make a correction. You should have also noted that your claim of wishy-washiness on the part of Angelmouse is different than what I disagreed with Budja on.

As for what you said about the “

counter-

claim”:
Even if you somehow missed the “counter” in Budja’s post- I’m not sure how you can misinterpret

“However, do *not* say either way whether you are the cop or not.”

And “EmpTyger is being defensive” doesn’t provide me with an explanation either.

I don't really get your point here. I already admitted that I misunderstood it the first time I read through.

As for what you said about angelmouse:
*You* said you wanted to “go back over everything to see if Angel's claim stacks up.” In your next post, I didn’t see any sign of you “taking her being cleared into consideration”. However, I did see you still providing a list of suspicious things you found in angelmouse.

Weren't you the one who said that you wanted to hear what my initial opinions were? Should I have just eliminated my section on Angelmouse?

Elvisnails - did you really think that lying about a claim wouldn't get you lynched?

Considering we've already got a claim from Angelmouse, the worst case in letting him live would be that he's scum and we end up outing the cop as our next suspect. On the other hand, he's useless to us if he is the cop and with the doc outed, she's useless too. Ultimately, it means that his claim is really meaningless and we should lynch him if we think that he is scummy. That said, I think that most of my suspicion was from the backtrack on the claim, so I'm going to have to put this under more consideration.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
...Okay, *how* is my claim of wishy-washiness on the part of angelmouse different from Budja's. according to you? I mean, I obviously get that you think so- I pointed it out. I don't see why- and given what Budja asked, it's not just me.

This is what I disagreed with Budja about.

Maybe a further vote so L-1 would spark more movement, but i certainly wont do that considering the early nature of the game and no posts from him

unvote, vote angel

, scum tell #1. Wishy-washy, want (suggest anyway) pressure without responsibility. Better than a lurker vote.

Your catch of the inconsistency was more reasoned that this original bit of wishy-washiness.

angelmouse:

<snip>

MR does need to comment on the game now he has returned and if he fails to contribute to make up for his absence, i would consider a L-1 vote.

With no comments from him yet, and early Day 1, i am not prepared to put someone at L-1 for not commenting.

I can however push and apply pressure that way.
<snip>

How are you applying pressure?
The blue sentence says that you *will* vote MR if he doesn’t comment.
The green sentence says that you “won’t* vote MR if he doesn’t comment.
That’s what’s wishy-washy.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
Okay, *how* was my catch "more reasoned" than Budja's? Because, I used colortags? Asterisks? How? Can you answer as specifically as you can this time?

Perhaps because you were looking at different quotes? If you can't tell just by reading the difference between what Budja said and what you said, then I can't help you any more.

I'd like to hear from Tracker. He's been absent since evil's retraction of the retraction.

[HackerHuck]

I don't like Tracker's line of questioning here. We've been discussing how off evil's claim recission and reclaiming is and now he's asking nessarae whether she's really the doc. We didn't get a counter from anyone after all of the requests for such, so I don't see why you would have any doubt. This seems more like an attempt to support evil's actions, which strikes me as very suspicious.

Vote: Tracker

evil- what makes you think that emptyger and I could be a scumpair? That makes no sense to me.

[HackerHuck]

@Huck,

We've been discussing how off evil's claim recission and reclaiming is and now he's asking nessarae whether she's really the doc. We didn't get a counter from anyone after all of the requests for such, so I don't see why you would have any doubt. This seems more like an attempt to support evil's actions, which strikes me as very suspicious.

I don't understand this.

How

does it support evil's actions.

---

Evil retracted his claim, which was pretty scummy. By asking nessarae whether her claim is correct, he's lending credence to a fake claim as being acceptable for town. As has been said times over, there's no reason for the real doc not to counter if angelmouse was scum.


nessarae - I'm having a really hard time understanding you. In 261, it sounded like you were saying that we should lynch the cop because no one likes cops.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
So does you think evilsnail is lying and that it’s Tracker/evilsnail? Do you have any argument against Tracker besides “he’s evilsnail’s partner”? Because if the only thing suspicious that Tracker’s done is “be evilsnail’s partner”, then why not lynch evilsnail first?

And, I don’t see Tracker as evilsnail’s partner. When Budja and I made it clear that MR wasn’t the lynch today, Tracker continued to push for a MR lynch.

When I first read through, I found both evilsnail and Tracker to be the scummiest, although evilsnail's scumminess was heavily weighted by his claim retraction. The way I see Tracker's recent posts, could be indicative of scum (Tracker) trying to help his scum buddy (evilsnail) by making evil's initial claim retraction more palatable, or by scum (Tracker) buddying up to the real cop (evilsnail) for the same reason.

I'm not sold on evilsnail being our cop, but I'm not too worried whether he's the lynch today or not. He will be dead either today or tomorrow and we won't get an investigation result from him. I see going after Tracker as being much more useful to the town right now.

[HackerHuck]

Huck, you aren't making a lick of sense. If I was trying to help him, why am I voting him? Why did I push so hard for his lynch? My recent posts have nothing to do with ES. It's all on nessie. I was merely asking a new player some questions.

I must be blind or something. I thought that you were no longer voting for him, so that doesn't make any sense. I'm much less certain about a scum pairing, so now I need to reevaluate to see which one of you is a better lynch today.

Unvote: The Tracker

I'm still curious why you think that Angelmouse may have been lying about her claim.

[HackerHuck]

I didn't realise deadline was coming up so quickly. This is kind of moot since he already has the most votes, but I'm happy lynching evilsnail. I didn't really have anything against MR short of the lurking, but evilsnail seemed to say a lot in his posts without really scumhunting. I think the claim reversal and subsequent reclaim was a good distraction from the body of his work, which was pretty soft. Looking back at all of his suspicions, he pretty much threw a little mud at everyone.

Vote: evilsnail

I still have a gut feel that Tracker is scum, so I'll be looking closely at him after the flip. If evil is scum, I'm not so certain that Tracker could be his partner, but I wouldn't put it past him to bus.

[HackerHuck]

While I don't like how Budja was non-committal at the end of the day, I'm not sure that scum would have taken that position when there was no feasible target other than evilsnail when we got close to deadline.

Emp-tyger - if you really thought that evilsnail should die, why weren't you on his lynch?

[HackerHuck]

The flip surprised me. I was beginning to think evil wasn't scum.
I'm sorry for the "I'm-not-cop" screw-up. I don't think I gave off cop-vibes anyway but still.
---
Jack is town. His attacks and participation on the MR wagon look legit.
---
Rereading Tracker's attacks on evil/MR make him obv/likely cop (hindsight/scum perspective).
---
Emp's attacks on MR are null/little town. He was less enthusiastic about a MR as so much as a lurker lynch.
---
Huck's bad Tracker vote looks worse.
---

vote: HackerHuck

Emp is #2.

Why exactly was my vote on Tracker so bad?

[HackerHuck]

HH:

While I don't like how Budja was non-committal at the end of the day, I'm not sure that scum would have taken that position when there was no feasible target other than evilsnail when we got close to deadline.

Interesting. If you think that evilsnail's partner wouldn't do that, then what do you think that evilsnail's partner *would* do in that situation?

Emp-tyger - if you really thought that evilsnail should die, why weren't you on his lynch?

Would you be asking this question if I had gotten online and cast the 4th vote on evilsnail- instead of you?

You couldn't figure out the answer to these? If elvis was going down anyway, why wouldn't he have jumped on the wagon? If you were voting for evilsnail, why would I ask you that question?

I understand that you don't agree with my initial reasoning, but that doesn't make me scum. I also pulled my vote when I realised that he was voting for Elvis, which made my observation invalid.

[HackerHuck]

Everyone except Budja:
"Repeated things I've done to hinder the town don’t definitely make me mafia, therefore I'm town." And the repeated things MR/evilsnail did to hinder town made evilsnail town too, I bet.

Also, he's lying about being in this position because of "gut". Because when I gave *logical* reasons, Budja said my *reasoning* was wrong. (Not that he could say why when I pressed him, of course, since he was lying.) He was arguing that the *logical* thing to do was leave a claimed cop alive.

No, the real reason he's in this position because he thought the town wouldn't lynch evilsnail yesterday. And we did.

Could you be bothered to post some post numbers or some kind of references to where he actually said this stuff? If he truly has said that stuff, I'm more than ready to hammer him all the way back into the queue. Of course, if he flips town my prime suspect will be a certain guy by the name of emptyger.

I think he's referring to post 307.

EmpTyger - I'm not very comfortable with how gung-ho you are on lynching Budja. This is carrying over from yesterday where you were also not on the evilsnail lynch and were parked on Budja. Now you're talking about how evilsnail was obviously scum and Budja is his partner. What can you point to earlier that shows Budja as scum and why did you stick your vote on Budja when you thought that evil was so scummy?

[HackerHuck]

Vote: Emp-Tyger

No-brainer for me, but I'll be back in the next day or so to convince you of why he's scum.

[HackerHuck]

ugh

[HackerHuck]

Yes, I spent most of the night debating who to kill - either Jackabomb or Nessarae. I figured since Emp-Tyger was pretty certain I was last scum, I had to convince one of the others to vote for him. I must have missed Nessarae's suspicion of me, because I felt would be able to pin jackabomb's death on Emp-Tyger.

Being able to talk during the day was an interesting mechanic. I don't think it was really able to help us much though considering the circumstances under which we replaced in. Even with Budja's lynch, I wasn't very hopeful about winning this one. There really didn't seem to be anyone left to pin a scum-label on. Emp-tyger did play very well and Jackabomb didn't really look scummy either.

[HackerHuck]

you should never let a newbie with a boyfriend that paly's on the site fool you... you might get shocked into what you find.......... when they vist each other's house

I'm not sure I want to know what you mean here.

Had you seemed more experienced, I probably would have leaned a little more toward killing you, but I really thought that Jackabomb wasn't really sold on Emp-Tyger and that I could use his death to set it up better for you to believe me.

If you guys want, I'll post the link to the quicktopic, but we really didn't have too much discussion except about whether I was going to push for evil's lynch or not.

[HackerHuck]

HH:
Likewise, I don’t think you deserve the loss as much as Cat. (Incidentally, mafia could talk during the day? I actually missed that in the role PM. That makes Cat’s lone attempt at defense even more illegitimate.)

I was surprised that Jack died- I didn’t really see any indication of nessarae voting me, and I certainly wasn’t voting her. It seemed like your only chance was to hope to capitalize on what happened D2 between Jack and me. Though I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong- just a bit of a gambit. But regardless of your nightchoice, I think you have to start off D3 more proactively. When I realized I was going V/LA, I was worried I’d get back too late.

When did you realize Tracker was the cop?

Yeah, the timing was bad on night and day 3 start. I didn't have much time to review the thread to try and build a case on it, so I thought I would take advantage of the extra time from your V/LA. I really didn't expect that nessarae would have made her mind up already. I also had assumed that you wouldn't be voting for Jackabomb, so it seemed like you would be voting for me regardless of whom I killed. I hadn't tried looking for the cop until my blunder with Tracker. Someone mentioned that Tracker kept on MS/Elvis even after the original claim, so I took a closer look at him and figured out the he had to be the cop.

[HackerHuck]

DeathNote:
The main thing was the “surprise” of mafia being able to daytalk- I didn’t expect that from the Open description in the queue, though my fault for not reading the roles in-thread more closely, I guess.

I think that the daytalk would not have had a strong impact one way or the other in a game this size, but we certainly didn't have a real chance to use it effectively. I did cringe during my readthrough when either cat or MS mention daytalking, but no one seemed to pick up on it.

I really liked the setup, because there is pressure on both sides out of the gate to get things right. It kind of reminded me of the old newbie game setup.