Open 194- Vengeful Reasons- GAME OVER!

[evilsnail]

Right. Reading the thread now.

[evilsnail]

WTF??? I am not a cop. I have no idea what the hell MR was thinking, but I'm not a cop.

[evilsnail]

The doc's outed? Geez, we're in poor shape here.

[evilsnail]

Okay, I really have no idea what MR was trying to pull there, but that claim is complete BS. Maybe he was trying to save his skin or something, but that's no excuse for what really is just atrocious play.

And what's up with the town getting two claims off relatively weak wagons? Surely we can do better than this.

[evilsnail]

Okay, I'm going to write up some of my notes and see if we can't steer this game into a better direction.

[evilsnail]

Page 1

- budja lurker vote on MR seems a bit easy.
- Jackabomb attacks The Tracker for LAL, but withholds vote. Seems strange so early in the game.

Page 2

- angelmouse is super non-committal in her first post. Could be scum not knowing what to do.
- EmpTyger: "talk me into an MR lynch" -> kinda early for that, a bit odd.
- I agree with budja's vote here on angelmouse.
- don't like angelmouse's response, kinda all over the place
- I agree with Jackabomb's response to MR's random vote, which felt off.
- EmpTyger-Tracker discussion doesn't seem fruitful.

Page 3

- EmpTyger seems to make rather a lot out of a fairly innocent post by Tracker
- Post 55 by Tracker is off: "you would think that I suspect EMP, but I'm getting more a zealous Townie feel" It's page 3, I would expect more doubt from a pro-town player
- Wow, MR's play is terrible. He's basically not contributing anything.
- Emp is really too quick to jump on this, I feel. He seems way too sure of his vote (he says something like: "I don't see myself voting for anyone but Cat or MR today". Also, how can he be so sure of a potential Cat vote? She basically has not contributed up until this point.

Page 4

- Emp accusing Cat of deliberate lurking seems a little paranoid.
- Not a fan of the Cat wagon. It seems a little easy, and it's only based on lurking, really.
- I like angelmouse's attitude about lynching lurkers here. Seems pretty pro-town.

Page 5

- Jackabomb seems to want Cat and MR dead just because he's sick of them. Not sure whether this is really scummy, or too obvious.
- I don't like The Tracker's vote for MR here. It's pretty opportunistic.
- budja points out the same thing.
- I don't like Jackabomb pushing for a claim. I mean, it's page 5 and MR has barely contributed anything. Seems pretty hasty.
- And then we have the claim, which is bizarre. One moment he says he doesn't want to claim and then like two posts down he does the most anti-town possible, basically, and fakes a PR claim. WTH was MR thinking??

Page 6

- budja and EmpTyger respond the way you should to the claim. I don't like The Tracker and Jackabomb's responses at all. I mean, the claim was BS, but the best response to a claim is almost always caution. It's a scum move to try push through a lynch anyway.
- Geez, that angel wagon developed quickly. Jackabomb and The Tracker again strike me as opportunistic for jumping on this.
- Also don't like Jackabomb's response to the doc claim. The right response is caution. You can verify claims later.

Page 7

- The Tracker voting MR on page 7 is terrible. You never lynch a claimed cop on Day 1. It's bad play. If the claim is false, you'll find out later anyway. And then you have a free lynch.
- Aaaand MR asks for a replacement. WTF? Pulling that stunt and getting someone else to clean up the mess after you is really nasty. I'm actually pretty pissed off that he'd leave that for another player. That has got to be the messiest position you can leave someone else in. Honestly, it would have been better if he'd have self-hammered and put himself out of his misery. Christ.

I'll give you my opinions, for what it's worth. The Tracker and Jackabomb have been acting in tandem on the MR and angel's wagons and there's something quite opportunistic about their behaviour. I've a strong gut feeling one of them is scum and I think it's The Tracker. His behaviour has been the most opportunistic and he almost pushed for lynches on two claimed players.

So:

Unvote

just in case.
And:

Vote: The Tracker

I believe the doc claim, in the absence of a counterclaim.

[evilsnail]

I don't have a problem with your skepticism about the claim. Everything about that claim was weird. Two posts before, he says that he's not going to claim.

Also, if you look at it, he says "I'm going to get lynched anyway" and "Goodbye all." Like he

expects

to be counter-claimed. He's already made his mind up that this is his last post and then, when he doesn't get counter-claimed, he asks to be replaced! I mean, what the hell. He knew that he'd just screwed himself and the town over.

But, regardless, you just don't lynch right away on a claim like that. If it is false, you'll find out the next day. You gain nothing from lynching right away and you get certainty by waiting. So, that's why I felt like you could be scum who's hoping to take advantage of a power role's terrible play in order to get the town to ignore this logic.

[evilsnail]

Fine whatever, I guess. I'm not going to defend what MR did. Or even his play, which I agree was terrible.

What really set off my scumdar, though, was that the same happened to angel. I mean, you don't lynch a claimed doc.

[evilsnail]

Hmm, apparently that was Jackabomb. For some reason, I remembered that as you. Because that was scummy as hell.

Unvote,
Vote: Jackabomb

[evilsnail]

I'm a gut-based player, so that's how I express my thoughts. I can try to cover that up, but that's what it comes down to. Also, it's actually spelled "Moriarty," Sherlock. (see, I can be snarky too )

You were opportunistic in that you jumped on both of the major bandwagons that came up and pushed both of them hard. And then you were willing to lynch both claimed PRs! But, fair enough, you have a point in that you weren't directly pushing for the angel lynch.

@Tracker: If you really think I'm scum, what in the world do you think my strategy is here?

[evilsnail]

Fine, but you still pushed the MR vote. And you only unvoted after other people detailed why lynching him today was a bad idea. Also, you pushed him to claim, which was premature.

The negative stuff is just more pertinent. There were a few things I agreed with or liked. I have a good gut feeling about budja, for instance.

[evilsnail]

I do like your posting evil, and I agree with pretty much all you said (save your Jackabomb attack).
Still, that cop-claim withdrawal is scummy. MR is a newbie but I'd think he has more sense than that.

Fair enough, I'd probably think the same thing in your place. In retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have said anything and taken the NK. All I can say is, go look at the MR claim carefully and see for yourself that it's just an off claim.

[evilsnail]

@Huck, Angel is proven to be the doctor due to no counter-claims.

unvote, vote evil

as..
1. he is not the cop (vanilla if town).
2. the whole cop claim/takeback thing sucks.

*sigh*

So, I guess this whole thing is backfiring pretty bad. There are other conceivable reasons for 2, you know. Think about it.

[evilsnail]

Unvote

So, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts on everyone, after doing a big re-read. I'm going to die soon either way, so there's no point in keeping anything to myself.

The Tracker

- Re-reading, I see again why my initial impression had The Tracker pegged as scum. For one thing, The Tracker went after MR and then wanted to lynch him despite the claim. Definitely look at this when I turn up town.

But there's a general pattern that worries me.
The Tracker sowed the seeds for an MR wagon quite early on. So there's his ISO 4:

Ewkay, since this game has officially ground to a halt, so to get discussion going what do you guys think of Memorial not posting yet? I personally don't appreciate the lurking, but apparantly it's all the rage in this thread anyways.

He pushed MR for lurking, but then later claimed not to have a case on MR, but that he was just trying to create discussion. Then later he does vote MR on the basis of his lack of contribution. There's a real lack of consistency here. Indeed, the fact that almost of every one of his serious votes has been motivated by lurking hints at a definite lack of serious scumhunting. He voted MR, Cat and anglemouse for lurking. I would be willing to forgive his eagerness to go after lynchers if there were otherwise serious scumhunting here, but there isn't. Not only is this bad strategy, because lurkers are just as likely to be town, but it's scummy, because lurkers are easy targets.

Jackabomb

- Starting to change my mind on Jackabomb. There's definitely some scumminess here. Jackabomb reprimands The Tracker very early on for his lynch-all-lurkers attitude, but then basically goes along with The Tracker on his MR vote. Like The Tracker, he has spent most of the game pursuing Cat or MR. Potentially, there's a bit of the same scumminess here, going after easy targets without contributing much else.

The fact that he asked MR for a cop result suggests to me he's not scum, though. Scum would know whether there had been a night. So, my overall feeling is leaning towards town.

More coming up.

[evilsnail]

Argh, sorry about the double post.

Budja

- When I initially read the thread, I had a very good feeling about budja. He seems level-headed and not too hasty. However, there is major scumminess here and very little actual content. He voted MR just for lurking early on and then switched to angel on one "wishy-washy" post. This was basically the full extent of his case on angel. That's really not enough to justify asking for her to be lynched and to claim. He's reminding me a lot of how I play as scum, not taking any chances and sticking to a vote once it's established & not contributing very much, but enough to prevent most accusations of lurking. Definite possible scum.

EmpTyger

- EmpTyger is hard to read. There are some things that make me think he's town, but also some things that worry me. On the one hand, his "I don't see myself voting anyone but MR or Cat today" comment was really scummy, but, on the other hand, he has contributed a lot of content. He has drawn out some discussions for a bit too long, which could be scum trying to confuse, but can sometimes be a townie getting a read on someone. I could see him as town, but also as sneaky scum.

HackerHuck

- Cat lurking is a null tell, IMO. I get a mildly scummy vibe from her three posts, but nothing much. HackerHuck I like so far. His analysis is pretty extensive and logical. Prob town.

Angelmouse

- Angelmouse I consider pretty much confirmed town, seeing as there have been no counterclaims. She needs to contribute more, though.

So, I think our scum is The Tracker and budja and definitely who we should be looking at, after my re-read.

Vote: The Tracker

[evilsnail]

evilsnail:

<snip>
There are other conceivable reasons for 2, you know. Think about it.

No, you tell us.

Ugh, just think about it, okay? Clearly, the takeback doesn't make any sense. If you think about it, there's only one scenario under which it makes any sense as a strategy.

[evilsnail]

That's all you have to say? I said so much more than that (and actually concluded that you are prob town).

[evilsnail]

I never said you were a lurker. I said you weren't contributing/scumhunting.

[evilsnail]

evilsnail:
Making vague insinuations that you lied in the exact way that you blasted MR for, for some unspecified hypothetical reason- that’s not a defense. And certainly not one that “makes any sense”. And certainly not when Budja and Tracker are voting you, and HH and I have said that we can’t see how your play makes sense.

Bullshit. "For some unspecified hypothetical reason." What I did was optimal play for any unprotectable cop in my position. A claimed cop without protection is completely useless to town. What I did was completely pro-town. This post is hella scummy. You obviously realise what I'm insinuating, yet your response is completely anti-town.

Scum in my position just rides it out. It's LyLo tomorrow, which means even the fact that a claimed cop hasn't died isn't necessarily a scum tell. My play makes no sense whatsoever for scum. And you should know this, EmpTyger, if you'd given this some thought.

I replaced into a hopeless position. I was basically in a position in which I got to play out the day before being NKed. The only thing I can possibly do in that position that helps the town is to pull off a takeback. It's not my fault that none of you have thought about this enough to realise this. So yeah, when I read through the thread, I decided to go for a risky play. I saw it as a no-risk sort of deal, since there was no real way my position could deteriorate (or so I thought at least, obviously I've proven myself wrong there). Plus, I didn't particularly feel like just rolling over and dying.

A scum player would have just ridden out the claim. Tomorrow would be LyLo anyway. I was hoping that either enough of you would believe the takeback or that enough of the town would realise the takeback is only good play for the actual cop. It's obvious that the former didn't work, so the only thing I could think of was to try to drop hints to bring about the latter. That's why I asked The Tracker about scum strategy in my situation and why I've been trying to get you and budja to use your brains.

But whatever, lynch me for all I care. This town is too frickin stupid anyway.

[evilsnail]

evilsnail:
A wise man once said to me, "Maybe he was trying to save his skin or something, but that's no excuse for what really is just atrocious play."
...At least, he said he was a wise man. He may have been lying about that. You never know.

So basically you're saying that you don't care whether I'm telling the truth. You just want to lynch me because you think it's bad play? Great.

1) evilsnail says he concocted this elaborate lie because his situation was hopeless and he had no other choice. And yet he did so before he finished reading the game. Before angelmouse's alignment was even known! Yet somehow he already knew that he was 100% the nightkill. Somehow, he knew that (a) the mafia wouldn't go after a confirmed doctor and (b) the mafia wouldn't deliberately leave him alive and counterclaim him to a mislynch tomorrow.

This is nonsense. Angelmouse's alignment has no bearing on it whatsoever. I'm unprotectable! And leaving me alive would just be terrible play for scum, because it gives me a result. Your first point is also false. I thought about whether I should try the takeback throughout that whole morning. I had skim-read the thread previously.

2) His reaction now is implausible. He's unclaimed twice now, and then thinks is the most unreasonable thing in the world that someone's skeptical? Instead, he's acting like his play is the most obvious thing in the world, to the point of insulting people who happen to be skeptical. And contrast that to how accepting he was of people who were skeptical of MR's first claim. He's okay with someone doubting MR's motivation in claiming cop; but it's somehow outrageous for doubting evilsnail's motivation in claiming

vanilla

cop.

Whatever. Any town player with a half a brain should realise that

trying a takeback is a pro-town play

. The fact that no one has is frustrating. Fine, yes, my first response was probably quite unfair, but I was pretty frustrated at the time.

3) blahblahWIFOMblah. "If I were scum I'd just ridden it out." Because according to him, he knew already that tomorrow would be lynch-or-lose, because he knew the town was going to mislynch today, because see-point-#1. And the right course of action for the WIFOM was so obvious to the town that see-point-#2.

What? I don't get what you're talking about here. I didn't know the town was going to mislynch, but, if I were scum, it's pretty plausible. And, about the second point, yes, it should have been obvious at least to some of you. You can't see a pro-town motive for any of this?

On the previous page, you didn't seem at all enthused about lynching me and you said you were still thinking it over. How are you suddenly so certain now that it turns out I'm the cop after all? If you are town, you are terribly misguided town, because you're pursuing a strongly anti-town strategy. I'm becoming convinced you're just scum trying to take advantage of an ill-conceived play.

Unvote,
Vote: EmpTyger

[evilsnail]

evilsnail:
Who do you think my partner is?

And despite the above, you’re not off the hook. Not when you are simultaneously arguing that your plan was “ill-conceived” and “an obvious protown move”.

My best bet at the moment is a The Tracker-EmpTyger scum pair, because you are the players who I am most suspicious of. On the other hand, I'm not sure if scum would push for a cop-lynch together, so I could also see a budja/HackerHuck-EmpTyger pair.

My plan was "ill-conceived" only because no one believed me and maybe I should have anticipated that in retrospect. I stand by the conclusion that it was a pro-town strategy, simply because it is optimal play in my situation.

I also don't see how you can try to make something out of the fact that I assumed scum would kill the claimed cop over the doctor. This is also just optimal play for scum. There's nothing more to it than that. I concede that there's a chance scum could try to ride it for a competing cop claim, but I only really realised that tomorrow could be LyLo after I did the takeback (wasn't really thinking the it being a seven-player game thing through). So that possibility didn't really factor into my decision-making. I would have made the same decision, though.

@The Tracker & Jackabomb: If you are going to simply follow EmpTyger, you should at least address some of the points of contention in our discussion. I don't see how you can behave as if it is an ironclad case or something.

[evilsnail]

I don't have a strong read on you and there's nothing in the interaction between you and EmpTyger that suggests this is not possible.

[evilsnail]

No i can think for myself i just want to get a grip on what is going on and thank u for tell me about evil and stuff i agree on MR i also think if u know who the cop is kill them no one likes cops and do we know who the cop it at all also who is the man here that has given the most problems out of everyone and that will be the one we kill its not hard people all we have to do i think on who is being the most u can say open about things do tell me if u think i am wrong

Nessarae, the cop is a pro-town role. If you vote for me, you lynch the only role that can find out who is mafia. Only vote me if you think I'm actually lying about being the cop (which I'm not).

Otherwise, vote for you think is behaving the most like they want everyone else dead. Good candidates (I think) are EmpTyger and The Tracker. EmpTyger is trying to get a cop lynched on weak evidence. The Tracker has been going after easy targets all game (lurkers and now me). Both of these things can be strong signs that a player is a member of the mafia.

[evilsnail]

Is the only thing you have against me that I don’t believe you? That I’m trying to get you lynched?

No... I said that you're trying to get me lynched on bad evidence. You claim to have had a turnaround in terms of whether you really believe me (you went from being relatively uncertain to apparent certainty) on the basis of shoddy evidence. I just don't believe the change of heart. What other players believe has no bearing on this.

[evilsnail]

Vote: EvilSnail

Care to elaborate?

[evilsnail]

Sorry HH, I left you in a bad position, I think.

I decided to take back MR's claim on my first read of the thread, before I'd looked at my role PM. At the time, I was under the impression that I was actually the cop. It seemed like the only way to be useful to the town. When I found out I was scum, I decided to still do it and hope that the town would realise this, but the whole gambit was too complicated. And MR's claim was pretty unconvincing to begin with.

When this didn't work out, I decided to throw a fake tantrum and throw some ad hominem attacks in there. For the record, these were completely insincere. Everything about the gambit was planned.