Open 185 v2.0: JK9 (Game Over)

[kunkstar7]

Seems like lurking is the worst enemy of Town around this site.

So far I've got FOS on Kyle99 and Joe87.

Kyle99 just seems like he is trying to hassle a lynch under the banner of "discussion".

Joe's asking to be roleblocked was stupid, unless there was something else important about him possibly.

One last thing that strikes me is how tajo insisted on the counterclaim, maybe looking for the other power roles?

[kunkstar7]

Because its not optymal. As you realize, not forcing a counterclaim will make us lose time and probably give more time for scum to think about the situation, more probs of messing with the claim, etc.

The ask for a counterclaim play is pretty much the optymal play in these situations. It either gets us a confirmed town we are about to lynch or we get a confirmed scumbag. If nobody had counterclaimed, csl would pretty much had survived the day, we would prob have lynched town and we would prob be in the same situation we are today.

If anything, something like a counterclaim would speed up the lynch process exponentially, like it has here. I guess I'm just not understanding your mentality. Paraphrasing from my point of view, you want the topic to be fully discussed, yet you propose a rather extreme idea that inspires a lynch whose logic you fully agree with.

those two things are not mutually exclusive. The best example is me not voting for csl even I think he is lying. I explained in my post that I would vote him after all the players expressed their opinions on the sitaution. If he is scum, as I strongly lean, we have another one to catch and Im pretty sure you dont have reads on all the players.

[/quote]

This sums up neatly what I see wrong with Tajo's call for a counter-claim. why would you want to speed up a lynch? It may have been a slow game but still every lynch must be thought through. This "optimal" play provided the Mafia with information on important roles to us, giving them a bonus in their nightkill. You asking for everyone to claim, namely your nag on Qoop for her claim, seems suspicious in my eyes. Why would you want *everyone* to claim? You might as well have sent the Role PM's to the mafia.

For this, I'm voting CKD (He replaced Tajo.).

Vote: curiouskarmadog

[kunkstar7]

Ok, that makes sense Hito.

Btw..what does iso stand for?

I agree with your Qoop town read though.

Lets assume you consider mykonian for certain mafia. Then who would you place as his partner?

[kunkstar7]

That's something that bothered me about the CSL lynch, how readily he was voted off, so we definitely need contribution from the rest.
And thanks for that help.

[kunkstar7]

I think she was referring to how she directed most of the thread. If you look through the posting, especially through the CSL campaign, you can see that she is thrwing ouit most of the real questioning and has most of the substance.

[kunkstar7]

Wow, I find it really hard to not look at what CKD just said as making complete sense. The only thing I'm keeping in the back of my head is a possible bussing.

My question to you CKD, when you mention Kyle or Joe, are you calling them out as possible scumpartners, or just pointing out incidents where they do something scummy?

unvote, vote mykonian

.

[kunkstar7]

At this point kyle99 has dug himself a hole, and now knowing mykonian was town, his call to lynch kyle is all more valid.

That leaves Qoop, Hito, Sotty7, and myself.

Unfortunately everyone of us four is a replacement, and I've noticed play changes (namely actually posting) from the replacements, which throws off any reading you get from the originals. Qoop is the closest to original, as the person she replaced never posted.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of it at this moment, I feel like Qoop and Hito have been really solid so far. Sotty7, I know your trying to make up for Chaco's lack of posting.

If we are talking about hammers, then what about the fact that it was Qoop that was the one to finish off CSL? She unvoted to prevent anyone from getting trigger happy, then killed off discussion herself by finalizing the vote. This is about the closest thing to a lead I found, besides Chaco not posting much of anything and joe with his weird comment about being jailkept.

Also, looking at the role pms, we *should* have a tracker. I'm not sure how it works, but can the tracker see who targeted the person who was night-killed?

The tracker targets a player. I tell them who that person targeted, if anyone. (However, if the tracker was roleblocked, I tell them that.) - ToD

[kunkstar7]

Also, looking at the role pms, we *should* have a tracker. I'm not sure how it works, but can the tracker see who targeted the person who was night-killed?

If you were really looking at the role PMs you would know what the tracker does and how it works. Your rolefishing here is noted.

Actually I was asking an honest question. This is the first game I've been in that has had something besides basic roles, I've only just completed my newbie game last night. Thanks for the answer ToD.


As it were, actually a role reveal of the tracker would not harm the town considering where we are. If this role extends to the mafia nightkilling, then possibly the tracker got lucky? Right now we need all the information we can get.

Right now I'm actually considering that sotty is possibly Kyle's scumpartner, just serving him up to keep himself seeming town.

[kunkstar7]

As it were, actually a role reveal of the tracker would not harm the town considering where we are. If this role extends to the mafia nightkilling, then possibly the tracker got lucky? Right now we need all the information we can get.

Right now I'm actually considering that sotty is possibly Kyle's scumpartner, just serving him up to keep himself seeming town.

Okay, lets say I give you the benefit of the doubt here. The tracker PM does make it pretty clear I think but if you are as new as you claim the question could be valid.

Are you saying you want the tracker to claim right now? I personally don't think the tracker should claim unless they have information that discredits the Kyle scum theory, do you disagree? Having the tracker make it to end game is the key here, we lynch Kyle, he flips scum the tracker turns into a cop because there is only one scum team member left to make the kill.

Also the more we talk about the tracker, the easier it is for the scum to pick out who IS the tracker. The less hints they are given the better.

Yes that makes sense, and that's why I wanted clarification, because as you stated it makes the tracker much more valuable in endgame. If you noticed I did not ask for a claim, I just wanted clarification as to how the tracker worked.

To your last point about bussing what exactly have I done that is scummy to you to make you think I am Kyle's partner?

Despite your claims to be looking for the partner you haven't really given much of anything about any possible partners, just continuing to hammer against Kyle. I understand what you are saying against Kyle, but have you gained any insight into anyone by this?

[kunkstar7]

I've been getting town reads from hito and Qoop mostly.
Alothugh Qoop has had a bit of oddities. Qoop commented on kyle's voting pattern early on, placing a FOS on him, but never really going anywhere with that. She also FOS'ed Myko for the same reason.

At this point though, I'm not really sure what to do. With people replacing in it's hard to go for a lurker lynch, especially when they can't really provide a good reason for the person lurking in the first place. I guess I would be down for a lurker lynch on principle, though. I'm guessing that with CSL basically screwing the town over it would be tempting to sit back and watch the town implode and not say anything. As cynical as this is going to sound though, I'm not sure that 'everyone getting active and posting' will really help much of anything.

In the above quote she says she would be okay with a lurker lynch, which I think in this game would not be the way to go with the amount of lurkers it started with. She then continues to go on how that she doesn't think that any discussion will help? and she thinks its tempting to just watch the town apart? Honestly this doesn't seem like going for a town win condition.

[kunkstar7]

So if we assume the deadline does come on the fourth, we are looking at about a week of discussion until the deadline.

@Hito: Taking into account this:

I also really want to lynch kyle, but his current posting style seems to be a weird combination of confrontational, lazy, and reaction-seeking. This is fairly scummy but it's also EXACTLY the townie personality I would expect to super-prematurely hammer.

If it comes down to a deadline lynch, would you be opposed to a kyle lynch? He seems to be the strongest lead we have at the moment, with the possibility of Qoop as the partner. Your reasoning for reading Sotty as town is the same I have for you, so that basically brings it down to those two in my mind.

[kunkstar7]

Why wouldn't Sotty and Kyle be a logical extension of those theories as well Nacho? I know you stated that Sotty was hammering too hard on Kyle, but couldn't it be an attempt at bussing a scumpal?

[kunkstar7]

As for comments on the case, I'll start with the posting style. I try to post as much as I can but I feel that every time I post I should be able to add something new or of value to the thread. I could make tons of posts saying "I agree with this person, I agree with that person", as many of you make good points that I agree with, yet I know those posts wouldn't have enough substance or wouldn't contribute properly to the town. Sometimes it takes a me a bit to find something of note or something I consider that will add to the thread.

As for the rolefishing, I simply needed clarification as to how the tracker would benefit us. I did not attempt to bring the tracker out, as it was pointed out that it would be better if the tracker lasted till endgame.

As for my contradictions about Qoop, that results from a conflicting view. When she entered the game, she was strong, directing most of the thread with good posts. Yet in this stage of the game, we are left with the possibilities of Qoop, Hito, Sotty, and Kyle as scum. As you believe yourself, Hito and Sotty are most likely town. This leaves, by the process of elimination, yourself and Kyle as scum. Yet this logical deduction conflicts with the initial read I got from Qoop. So I am trying to see if there were any slips in Qoop's posting that support this deduction. Those were the "oddities" I pointed out.

[kunkstar7]

-Every single person kunkstar has voted has flipped scum.

Lets hope this one does too.

Vote: kyle99

[kunkstar7]

@Kunker: My read on Hito is still town. My read on you is still scum. Why shouldn't we lynch you today?

Pure and simple: lynching me loses the game for town.

In order to help you answer that, here are some questions:

1.Why is Hito scum?

2.Why did you get on the mykonian wagon without explaining your reasoning at all?

3.When you asked the tracker to claim, what did you think this would accomplish?

4.Can you explain your case on Sotty yesterday?

1. As it were, I as well have a strong town read on hito. So...if you think he's town, and I think he's town, then he's most likely town. Not even you have pointed out a reason why hito would be town. So the conclusion derived from that is you are scum. Now what would really throw us for a loop is if hito is town. I think though, for my sanity, I'm going to keep him as town unless any scumtells show up.

2. My reasoning was the logic that Hito pointed out in his post where he began the case on mykonian. It made excellent sense, although in hindsight was misdirected.

3. When I remembered the tracker, it came to mind that maybe we got lucky and they got a read on a scum. Then Sotty pointed out that the tracker would be much more valuable in endgame, which he was correct in. What bothers me with this question is you continue to misrepresent my question as asking for a claim by the tracker. I did NOT ask for a claim, my only question was a clarification if the tracker could discover mafia targeting. Quote:

Also, looking at the role pms, we *should* have a tracker. I'm not sure how it works, but can the tracker see who targeted the person who was night-killed?

4. The only thing that I had on Sotty was that possibly he was using Kyle as a decoy. It was something that had to be considered. Other than intense lurking from his original slot, there wasn't any other glaring scumtells.

This would explain why he called kunk his #1 suspect and then proceeded to start the kyle wagon - it helps set up for a easy, knock him in lynch on kunk today.

This is what is standing out to me the most right now.

[kunkstar7]

EBWOP:

1. As it were, I as well have a strong town read on hito. So...if you think he's town, and I think he's town, then he's most likely town. Not even you have pointed out a reason why hito would be scum. So the conclusion derived from that is you are scum. Now what would really throw us for a loop is if hito is scum. I think though, for my sanity, I'm going to keep him as town unless any scumtells show up.

[kunkstar7]

Since it's LyLo, I'm not going to let tunnelling be the end of me. So, right now, everyone's back to square one. I recommend you do the same because the possibility still exists that Hito is scum.

Yes it is possible that hito is scum. I agree that we should go back and relook at everyone, but I think rereading the thread will only lead us back to the same conclusions. Most likely the night kill choice and anything said in this final day will be the most crucial info in the lynch decision.

I can't explain the nightkill. But I can point out that Sotty DID have a scum read on Kunker, and a town read on me. I can also point you to Sotty-Kunker interaction Day 2, and the whole deal with the tracker speculation.

What information/ opinions/speculations do you derive from these points?

However, I have to admit that I am surprised that everyone's top town read of yesterday didn't die. KunkerScum would definitely want to kill you. However, you would want Sotty dead because she was the only one of us who had not pinpointed a likely scumbuddy; I had gotten it narrowed down to Sotty or Kunker, and Kunker had gotten it narrowed down to Sotty or me. So obviously the death of Sotty would make me or Kunker go after each other, leaving you to hammer whoever you liked.

Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but the first answer to the question 'why I am alive' that pops up in my head is 'because scum-Nacho thinks he'd have your support more than Sotty's.' This would explain why he called kunk his #1 suspect and then proceeded to start the kyle wagon - it helps set up for a easy, knock him in lynch on kunk today.

These are the two biggest possibilities from my point of view. It is all a matter of which seems most likely. Hito is giving a example of why Nacho would want Sotty dead and Nacho gave a point why Hito would want Sotty dead.

[kunkstar7]

But kunk. You are way way too passive. You claimed to be even more certain I'm town than Nacho is. But you seem to be missing the fact that, if you think I am town, this is your scumlist:

• Nachomamma8

As it were basically that's what it comes down to in my mind. Even a double reread of the thread and some iso's doesn't seem to change my town read. You are right, I am too passive. So here is a case on Nacho/Qoop.

I am not insinuating that kyle99 is trying to bandwagon, but I’m not sold on the justification behind his vote.

Knowing now that Kyle was scum, the bandwagon is obvious. He took the chance early to get his vote in so he wouldn't have to be the hammer, as he was in day 2. Qoop here notes that it was a bad move, but refuses to put any pressure really on Kyle.

In the context of your other votes, I don't believe so. I think it is dangerous to vote in so many different ways. It makes you hard to read, and making yourself hard to read is anti-town and a scum tell.

This right here seems like Qoop is coaching/telling Kyle to not throw his vote around.

When CSL claimed jailkeeper, Tajo, now a confirmed town, asked everyone to counterclaim. Qoop conveniently avoided that with a comment on how she was unvoting to prevent anyone from becoming trigger-happy. This post also causes a discrepancy with the post where she is the hammer on CSL, for two reasons. The first reason is in her post where she hammers CSL she said that she wished she had a post before Ginz counter-claimed. The post where she unvotes was a post before that. The second discrepancy is that although she unvoted to prevent someone from hammering, she was the hammer herself.

I really want input from EVERYONE before we proceed with this lynch. The day has been short and I really want to hear people's thoughts on the last 4 pages.

Tajo wants to make sure that all available discussion is exhausted before they proceed with the lynch, as the counterclaim to CSL had just happened. After CSL claimed Jailkeeper, exactly 5 out of the 9 players made some sort of post before the lynch occurred. Mykonian never got a chance to make any sort of opinion regarding the claim. Kyle never put any input because well it all worked out for him. The other two were lurkers/never showed so it wasn't expected that they would put any opinion, yet if given the chance, if they were replaced at that time, the replacements should have been given a chance to voice opinions.

Joe478 then posts this:

Well isn't it obvious that we should lynch CSL, if he is telling the truth Ginzkey will go tomorrow, if this is the case scum will get 2 NK's but there will still be 4 town left to hunt for the other scum. If Ginzkey is telling the truth (more likely IMO) then we have 1 scum down with 6 town left to find the other scum (if scum successfully NK).

As his reason for voting. And well I agree with that logic, so his L-1 vote was warranted although, by allowing the hammer it does taint the view of that vote.

The comment on Joe's L-1 vote serve as Qoop's cover for the hammer. She effectively ends discussion for that day without allowing almost half of the other players to comment on the claim.

Day 2 is when Hito joins in. I'm going to save any comments about Hito for another post, trying to focus on Nacho/Qoop for this one.

Note in one of Kyle's "better" posts he doesn't comment on Qoop at all, simply stating

Qooq

replaced purple princess

Seems town.

Once again these two refrain from casting a lot of suspicion onto each other.

Qoop disappears from the game for the rest of day 2, leaving nothing but an FOS on mykonian.

Random Note: She FOS'ed three people, voted only one. Don't ask me what that means, maybe that's just her style of play.

Nacho enters the game in Day 3.

Declares myself and Kyle scum.

Once again, we have limiting discussion time.

Right now, I want Kyle to make a post defending himself, then I say we go for his lynch. The fact that he still isn't posting proves Hito's point, very, very well.

I know that it was a forgone conclusion that Kyle was going to be lynched. Yet we were still looking for his partner. You distracted from the fact that we needed some hint, some lead on who his partner was. If you consider Nacho is scum, then this situation is just Nacho realizing that Kyle is a lost cause, and trying to do damage control, preventing any further inquisition into partners by starting the lynchwagon.

My last point is concerning the night kill, actually its Hito's point:

Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but the first answer to the question 'why I am alive' that pops up in my head is 'because scum-Nacho thinks he'd have your support more than Sotty's.' This would explain why he called kunk his #1 suspect and then proceeded to start the kyle wagon - it helps set up for a easy, knock him in lynch on kunk today.

This provides a reason behind the night kill choice.

[kunkstar7]

Actually, you missed the point right there. Kunkstar's point against me was that I voted Kyle and thus ended the discussion for who his buddy was. I pointed out that he hammered, thus had time to post and continue discussion, or at least make an attempt to. He did neither of these things.

Yes, I think you are correct here. Just something I had to add because in reality, besides my hammer causing it to be a contradiction on myself, it is a valid point.

[kunkstar7]

Ok, stuff on hito/Joe478. This isn't a case really, its more of commenting on everything Hito(Joe478) related.

Uh, vote:joe478. Gotta love the RVS.

First thing is right off the bat Kyle99 randoms votes joe478. While there can not be any real significance attributed to this since it technically is a random vote, this is just noting the interaction between the two.

Joe478 doesn't even show up till he's prodded and 5 days late. Weird things happened with him missing his role pm.
His first post is an RVS shout and vote on purple princess, also talking about he didn't get his role pm.

Actually it was still only L-2

And mykonian missed it aswell, you people need to pay more attention.

In this next post he notes that both Myko and Tajo miscounted the vote. This to me is +1 town as he is paying attention to what is going on. Contradiction to this: Scum usually pay closer attention to details trying to make sure they don't make slip ups. I'm still viewing this as good though.

His next post says he found his role.

He disappears for two days, and shows up to put CSL at L-1.

Well isn't it obvious that we should lynch CSL, if he is telling the truth Ginzkey will go tomorrow, if this is the case scum will get 2 NK's but there will still be 4 town left to hunt for the other scum. If Ginzkey is telling the truth (more likely IMO) then we have 1 scum down with 6 town left to find the other scum (if scum successfully NK).

Honestly I can't argue with this logic. Yet he put CSL at L-1 again allowing the hammer by Qoop. This is really a conflicting post. He provides a good reason, but his previous lurking seems like he might have been just taking advantage of a good situation.

Joe478 then asks for Ginzkey to use her action on him. Why he did this, we do not know. This weird move was reason for Myko to vote him, and Kyle to FOS him. When I came into the game, this stood out to me as weird and was a source of my initial suspicion of Joe.

Note on Kyle interaction with Joe here. He FOS'ed Joe twice and RVS voted him. Some of whats coming up will be about interactions about Kyle and Hito(Joe478)/Nacho(Qoop).

This suspicion on Joe was dropped after he went V/LA and requested replacement.

Then Hito comes in, with his ISO-Spectacular. Besides being one of the most content-ful post so far in the thread (+1 town), some main points. Decides Kyle is active lurking. Decides Qoop is a town read, I did as well at that point. Starts with a vote on mykonian.

hitogoroshi

replaced joe

Ugh, Joe asking to be jailed seemed so stupid. Either he was scum, and wanted to be cleared from being scum by letting his partner make the kill, or he's town looking for unneeded confirmation, both being stupid ideas.

Kyle's thoughts on Joe478. From the looks of it to me, Kyle has no qualms about throwing suspicion onto Joe. Kyle's objective was to push a lynch wherever he could, so, if you look at that post in its entirety, he just recapped all the current suspicions on people. He had nothing to say about Qoop and Tajo/CKD except for "seems town." He couldn't say anything about CKD because there wasn't anyone else suspicious of him. And well, why he just said "seems town" about Qoop is he didn't want to put suspicion where there wasn't much.

This theory of Kyle not worried about throwing Joe for a lynch is extended in a following post by Kyle regarding Joe:

Because him being scum is the most likely, and even if he's town, doing that was being anti-town.

Kyle doesn't have a problem with saying Joe is most likely scum.

Mykonian follows with some comments that pretty much say that Joe478 was just a townie being weird.

On Joe being a newby: Newby is the wrong word, and that put me off. Joe is impulsive, and is probably not the person to think of an elaborate scum plan that would fool the town by drawing the JK. (disclaimer, That doesn't mean that the case on Joe wasn't sound. The reasoning was correct. But it would point at someone being weird, not scum, probably)

Following the reasoning above, Joe had no scum motive doing what he did, and as town his impulsiveness would explain what he did ( I expect Joe to be more careful as scum), so that would be town number two.

We come to Day 3. Following a post by Hito Kyle posts his opinion that Sotty7 and I are a scumteam. The biggest thing I note about this is he doesn't even try to attack Hito, I believe because there was nothing he could think of to make anyone seems suspicious of him. He quickly mentions Qoop's post on CSL, then says it can't really be called scummy because of CSL's play. What I see is buddying/realizing its not a good target on Hito, and trying to excuse Qoop's behavior. He then proceeds to go after the most suspicious characters he could get.

After that, we have a Nacho replacement. She sums Hito best up here:

I like Hito's play so far. He has extremely consistant content, he's active, he's inquisitive...
Read: STRONG TOWN

And most of what Hito continues to post just strike me as pro-town. He knows what the town needs to win, knows what we need to do to get that win.

And finally the reason for the night kill choice:

However, you would want Sotty dead because she was the only one of us who had not pinpointed a likely scumbuddy; I had gotten it narrowed down to Sotty or Kunker, and Kunker had gotten it narrowed down to Sotty or me. So obviously the death of Sotty would make me or Kunker go after each other, leaving you to hammer whoever you liked.

So if I were to derive a case against Hito(joe478) from this it would go as follows:

• Joe478 lurked much.
  
• Showed up out of nowhere to put CSL at L-1.
  
• Asked to be jailkept.
  
• Begins Mykonian lynchwagon.
  
• Has a reason for the nightkill.

In the same vein, heres the shortened case on Nachomamma8(Qoop):

• Doesn't throw substantial suspicion on Kyle99.
  
• Avoids claiming.
  
• End discussion on Day 1 by hammering CSL.
  
• Kyle doesn't throw suspicion on Qoop.
  
• Begins lynchwagon on Kyle. (Note the reason this is bad is because it ends discussion.)
  
• Has a reason for the nightkill.

Note that not all of these reasons carry the same weight. For example Hito's beginning of Mykonian's lynchwagon. The only reason its there is because it resulted in a townie lynch. That does not mean that Hito is obvscum, it is just something that could be used against him.

[kunkstar7]

I hammered because the voting had already begun and we were close to absolutely sure of Kyle's scumminess. With the lynchvoting effectively started, there was little chance we would go anywhere else.

[kunkstar7]

Honestly I'm shot for stuff.

Kyle mentioned me as suspicious because I was an easy target. There were several reasons being thrown out by other players as to why I could be scum, he just picked them up again. The same could be used in reverse for you Hito.

Hitogoroshi - Hitogoroshi is the player I have the strongest town read on so far this game. His arguments are thoughtful and sound, and he seems most likely to be town.

He could just be buddying you, trying to make sure that every thinks you seem town.

[kunkstar7]

Damn you Hito xD.

All that hard work trying to make a case against Qoop/Nacho and one sentence throws it all out the window.

At least I got my reads on you two correct, I'll take pride in that.

Good game both of you.

[kunkstar7]

I was sure enough to vote, but I felt that by voting I would probably gain more suspicion than give it. In my last game I presented my case and ended it with a vote, and the next guy immediately knew I was scum. I didn't want that same conclusion to come about here, so I wanted to see what your opinion was on it first.

I also was going to vote Nacho after you said you were thinking me, but same reasoning applied as above.

[kunkstar7]

Gotta say I really got a good laugh from this:

"Tomorrow, he's who I'm framing. Completely and utterly framing."

[kunkstar7]

And this.

Score 1 for the dark side.