Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Rob14]

I don't think it's entirely impossible to research that, it would cost quite some time, though.

I've got time this week. Want me to go pull a month's worth of data from six months ago?

In order to make that data useful, I'd probably also have to pull a month worth of data from the setup prior to 2of4, since that allows comparison.

[Rob14]

If you want to grab the old setup, I could grab the current one. The best way to do things that I can think of is to pull the players who placed into a game from seven months ago until six months ago and check whether they were still posting on site after both 3 months and 6 months to give the best picture of retention rate in the shorter and longer terms.

[Rob14]

disregard IC and SE players, count replacements and replaced as long as they were newbies.

but ideally you'd have more than a single month's data, and you'd compare it to other variables (e.g. how fast the game went up for sign ups, what setup was being used, how long the game lasted, who was the IC)

I'll look into a way to do this tomorrow.

[Rob14]

^ Thanks for letting me know.

[Rob14]

the goal isn't to exhaust our supplies of SEs and ICs. A long queue there is great.

Not so great for the players, though. It's difficult to know when you're going to reach the top of the queue, so it's difficult to know how much time you'll have on your plate when you reach there. It's kind of annoying. I never both with the SE queue because it's just too long and it always prevents me from adding on an extra game due to the uncertainty of when I'll be needed.

On a side note, the ability to /in twice or even more often into either the SE or IC queue is annoying to people who want to reach the top of the queue. It's silly that Nacho, for instance, is going to reach the top of the IC queue four times before I reach it once. It's not difficult to /in again as soon as you make it into a game and it will keep the wait time much lower than it is now (at least for the IC queue).

[Rob14]

I'm too excited that "we have too many ICs" is an issue to decide if it's really a problem we want to "fix."

I should note that adding a role that you can only /in to the SE or IC parts of the queue once each would NOT decrease the supply of ICs. The queue would look visually shorter, but ICs would just /in as soon as they got a role PM for a newbie game if they want to play more.

At the very least, it should be limited to two slots at a time on the queue. 3-4+ is pushing it, and sometimes people go higher. I think Nacho /in'd x8 one time, IIRC. Not sure if that's a semi-typical thing.

[Rob14]

What would people think about raising the requirement to be an SE to three games completed to force newbies out into the site for at least one game after their two games as a newbie?

[Rob14]

You could also just say that you have to have SE'd to be an IC?

I think this would decrease the amount of ICs because of how long the SE queue can be at times. I would never /in to SE because of the queue length, but I will IC. If I had to wade through the SE queue to IC, I just wouldn't do it.

[Rob14]

@Alduskkel - From your experience, did you consider yourself part of the larger MS community while you were only playing in newbie games? During the time you were playing in newbie games (somewhat) exclusively, did you participate in GD?

[Rob14]

In my own opinion (and maybe others will disagree, I don't know), regular games are more fun than newbie games. They add a lot of variety and stuff. I think pushing newbies out of the newbie queue after they've received their tutorial on how to play (two games max) will have the effect of increasing retention in addition to preventing people from becoming "professional newbies". I'm fairly sure I would have lost interest pretty quickly if I was playing newbie games 24/7.

[Rob14]

- Ignorance to what else is out there
- Ignorance to there being a difference between newbie games and regular games
- Uncertain of the rest of the site or members outside of the newbie queue
- Belief that they aren't ready for "real" games
- Familiarity with the newbie setup
- Fear of change

Just off the top of my head, might be more.

[Rob14]

I do think that 99/100 times, "this setup is boring as fuck now" trumps all of those things.

I don't think that's accurate at all, based on the amount of people I see in the newbie queue arguing that they should be able to play a third game as a newbie or as a newbie regardless of experience because they feel they're not ready for other games yet.

[Rob14]

That would still happen no matter what the setup

What would people think about raising the requirement to be an SE to three games completed to force newbies out into the site for at least one game after their two games as a newbie?

I was still talking about this as a change to the newbie queue.

[Rob14]

^ I lol'd.

[Rob14]

No. No. No. No. No.

This would go horribly wrong because newbies would constantly try to draw votes to get a vig kill, not realizing this is a crap strategy full of failure and shame. You see it from noobs in that setup a good deal, iirc.

[Rob14]

Part of acclimating newbies to the site is teaching them how to play at a level that will allow them to jump into regular games. They will not learn how to scum-hunt or play well in those newbie games, and therefore will not be able to successfully enter into the rest of the website. They'll get disheartened because they're infinitely worse than most people, and we will not retain them.

[Rob14]

The IIRC was based off of the wiki page for Vengeful Mafia. It's listed as one of the main myths of the game setup. While it doesn't specifically say "newbies did this," that's the impression I got since no experienced player would be likely to do that.

P-edit: ORLY? Disagree, based on the vengeful I'm playing in now and the newbie games I've played in. I've always thought scum-hunting was taught very well in newbie games.

[Rob14]

I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence for that. I came through newbie games, and I consider myself decent. I've never seen a newbie game go horribly wrong scum-hunting wise. I'm sure it's happened, but I haven't seen it.

The fact that there's no night game is a draw back, not a benefit. The vast majority of games on-site have a night game. If we want to acclimate them to that, running a setup with no night kills is not the way to do it, imo.

[Rob14]

I envision multiple games where some newbie claims scum as Town or whichever, gets run up at lightning speed, and makes a stupid kill to end the game in two pages. Thanks for playing!

back of the queue

I also disagree that Vengefuls are anything like the other games on this site.

This said what I was trying to a page ago, except better.

[Rob14]

What would people think about raising the requirement to be an SE to three games completed to force newbies out into the site for at least one game after their two games as a newbie?

I would like to quote this to make sure it isn't missed. I think this would be a great addition to the Newbie Queue and prevent people from essentially becoming "professional newbies" by playing two newbie games and then just being an SE for a long time. It would also raise the quality of play in Newbie Games. Almost everyone who commented on this idea when it discussed liked the idea, IIRC.

[Rob14]

Vi, it forces newbies to leave that queue before becoming an SE. It's like adding a requirement to SE that states you must have one completed game outside the Newbie Queue. This would help integrate newbies into the site better, show them what's out there, and make more of a cohesive community in my opinion. It also raises the quality of play in the newbie games by forcing the "model" players (SEs) to at least have some decent experience.

[Rob14]

Can someone tell me what the current proposed setup is or quote it (or direct me to the general area it is at)?

I forgot about this thread for a looooooooooong time.

[Rob14]

Ok, maybe I'm just stupid, but....

Doesn't a 3x3 matrix produce 8 options, not 6?

3 columns, 3 rows, 2 diagonals

Am I missing something?

[Rob14]

Well that would explain it.