TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Aisa]

VOTE: DeasVail for 12 points!

[Aisa]

Ydra town +0.1%

[Aisa]

Koba seems Somewhat Different from that game they were in 9 months ago when they were scum that I was also in. I can townread them now right?

counterwagon

VOTE: aisa

Now, now. Why do you slander my good name?

[Aisa]

Koba seems Somewhat Different from that game they were in 9 months ago when they were scum that I was also in. I can townread them now right?

counterwagon

VOTE: aisa

Now, now. Why do you slander my good name?

what are your thoughts so far?

Koba seems Somewhat Different from that game.
Shirou gives me vaguely sneaky vibes but I've never played with them before, it could just be a matter of getting used to their playstyle.
This is not a playerlist I'm super familiar with so I'll likely take my time with reads. Everyone seems possibly within scumrange I guess. I'm guessing activity will be higher than most of the games I've been playing recently, so I don't feel bad about sitting back and observing for a little bit, which is a nice change of pace.

Oh and I wanna know why mastina thinks I'm town
There are so many questions of that sort I could direct to various people that I'm almost feeling a bit of choice paralysis lol

[Aisa]

Oh and I wanna know why mastina thinks I'm town

I've an entire scientific method for reading people on RVS posting.

But the basics of it are,
You have good vibes. You feel natural, not forced. You feel like you're just being casual, natural, not forced. You don't appear artificial or fake. Your posts are fluid, and they are just casually insightful. You're playing, you're vibing, but you also look like you're scumhunting, which is all hallmarks of town.

(Also I've seen you play before. )

I'm sure having seen me play before helps yeah =P
I laughed out loud because I thought you'd say that as your reason. I'll keep an eye on you

[Aisa]

It's page 5 and I'm pleased to announce Koba has pocketed me in one simple swift move

[Aisa]

Thoughts on Ydra.

Gun to head I would still call her null. Some of her posting feels quite natural. She's doing some scumhunting and while I don't always find her conclusions super solid I can easily see the world where her ISO is her actual thought process at this time.

But there is this one thing that bugs me:
I feel like the (look like I have thoughts) to (thoughts) ratio in her ISO is quite high. Mostly because (look like I have thoughts) is so high. She has a supremely easy to follow ISO at the moment because every little action and implication is made explicit. This is pro-town but perhaps something scum are even more incentivised to do than town?

UNVOTE:

for reference i voted aisa because i thought their opening was a little stilted ie mirror someone's vote on them rather than post something wholly unique and the .1% thing in reference to me felt nervous to take much of a stance. i also thought that their reply to me in 94 wasn't as telling as i wanted but

Oh and I wanna know why mastina thinks I'm town
There are so many questions of that sort I could direct to various people that I'm almost feeling a bit of choice paralysis lol

felt like a towny thing to say, i guess it could be a copout but tonally i believe it

The feeling started when she made this post.

Vote / question someone -> unvote after their reply
Is definitely a pattern I've seen from scum before

i think i agree most with the mala read, it's not an unreasonable one for her to have and she doesnt feel very threatened or like, on edge i guess as if she was pretending to feel that strongly and then being challenged

This is another thing that pinged me. Kinda agree with it, but at the same time am still wary of Mala because her read on mastina rings major "could be a scum tunnel" alarm bells. So Ydra comes across to me like she doesn't have this paranoia I am feeling, which in turn makes me wonder if this is just a sentence, packaged ready for consumption, rather than a read she actually has.

Any thoughts here from anyone who is more familiar with her?

[Aisa]

VOTE: Kowahbunga

I'll bite. Why?

VOTE: kowah

Ali finally got to you?

[Aisa]

UNVOTE: from RVS
VOTE: Shirou as a foreshadowing of things to come...

[Aisa]

Thoughts on Ydra.

Gun to head I would still call her null. Some of her posting feels quite natural. She's doing some scumhunting and while I don't always find her conclusions super solid I can easily see the world where her ISO is her actual thought process at this time.

But there is this one thing that bugs me:
I feel like the (look like I have thoughts) to (thoughts) ratio in her ISO is quite high. Mostly because (look like I have thoughts) is so high. She has a supremely easy to follow ISO at the moment because every little action and implication is made explicit. This is pro-town but perhaps something scum are even more incentivised to do than town?

UNVOTE:

for reference i voted aisa because i thought their opening was a little stilted ie mirror someone's vote on them rather than post something wholly unique and the .1% thing in reference to me felt nervous to take much of a stance. i also thought that their reply to me in 94 wasn't as telling as i wanted but

Oh and I wanna know why mastina thinks I'm town
There are so many questions of that sort I could direct to various people that I'm almost feeling a bit of choice paralysis lol

felt like a towny thing to say, i guess it could be a copout but tonally i believe it

The feeling started when she made this post.

Vote / question someone -> unvote after their reply
Is definitely a pattern I've seen from scum before

i think i agree most with the mala read, it's not an unreasonable one for her to have and she doesnt feel very threatened or like, on edge i guess as if she was pretending to feel that strongly and then being challenged

This is another thing that pinged me. Kinda agree with it, but at the same time am still wary of Mala because her read on mastina rings major "could be a scum tunnel" alarm bells. So Ydra comes across to me like she doesn't have this paranoia I am feeling, which in turn makes me wonder if this is just a sentence, packaged ready for consumption, rather than a read she actually has.

Any thoughts here from anyone who is more familiar with her?

OMG this is soooo easy

VOTE: Aisa

Mm-hmm
What is your case?

[Aisa]

also @aisa i recognize that yes, mala could be faking a tunnel to avoid reads elsewhere or to make it seem like she’s invested in what she “believes” but i don’t get the sense she’s doing that and i also don’t think that it’s particularly beneficial this early on to do so? maybe i’m wrong but it feels as if digging down and yelling could cause more issues than it’s worth if she can just follow the vibe of the thread which is imo pretty loose and without super strong suspicions and blocks forming yet (arguably townhunters inc is the starts of one but meh)

on a broader note to your other point though i feel as if this should (?) be recognizable as how i play town compared to wolf if you wanted to do any meta work though my ego is pleased a little regardless lol

Sure - thank you. Interesting point about it not being beneficial to double down on a read this early. Just looked at her ISO and she does have this... almost playful energy to her, that really helps her get away with the read. Huh.
I'm sure the meta work will come if I'm desperate enough; I do usually eventually bring out the heavy artillery.

I love rabbits (also, my chinese zodiac!)

Ooh same here that's why I chose this avi!!

I have also officially decided to townread DV.

[Aisa]

Ooh, lots to chew on.

Why is the fact you were a traitor in that game relevant? The objective if you were scum here - miselim someone - would be the same, right?

[Aisa]

Ooh, lots to chew on.

Why is the fact you were a traitor in that game relevant? The objective if you were scum here - miselim someone - would be the same, right?

The reason why a traitor being relevant is because even though I was scum there I didn’t know my partners. So technically I was simulating my town meta, but I had a scum role. So when I played the game with you I basically played it as much as I could in a town mindset, but just knowing I was scum and I had a 1shot killing role.

Hmmm fine

[Aisa]

This is a mini normal, lol

@aisa can you elaborate on your thoughts on Shirou?

I tried a bit but I found myself scrolling his ISO trying to remember what I was thinking so you get the barebones version
He felt like he kept up the fluffposting a bit longer than most slots did and that stuck out a bit and made me wonder if it wasn't a bit forced. (Not complaining about the fluffposting, I think it's fun, just sayin' maybe he's also disguising some scummy motives beneath it )

Spoiler:

Just a thought

Why is Italian VD voting Koba and not me?

Inactive vs Active suspect dilemma? Welp, he can reply himself I guess

either way, just want to say Ali has said for the fifth time to vote Kowah because she's townleaning most active players

but as I stand here,

I realize,

that I'm gonna bully her again and say no.

This is a good example of the type of post that pinged me,

I guess

I just took exception to being informed that Alisae is being bullied

[Aisa]

Anyway
UNVOTE:
when I grow up I will find a serious scumread

G'night

[Aisa]

I'm completely off the cuff and have not digested any of the last five pages, but Shirou, can you say a bit more about what the issue is with Ydra's posts not feeling "noteworthy" enough
Or rephrase or something

[Aisa]

I think that was Xof.
What did you think of my post on Ydra? Take your time I don't need an answer this very second

[Aisa]

Well, respect for making me cringe at my own posting

[Aisa]

BUT (but!) if you scumread hedging we're indeed gonna have a problem

[Aisa]

(I'm reading through the thread at the moment)

BUT (but!) if you scumread hedging we're indeed gonna have a problem

If DGB were to change their mind that makes them scum automatically then?

Hmm?
Uh... the opposite?
DGB seems to be scumreading me for hedging. I'm implying that she shouldn't do that. Because I hedge all the time.

If she changed her mind that wouldn't make her automatically scum. Nor do I have much of a read on her now. It would just be Another Thing.

[Aisa]

Thoughts: 2.0

(Aka scummy weasely thoughts have dropped once more. Review soon to appear in Goofball Magazine.)

Townreading DeasVail even more thanks to his recent posting. Happy times!

Townleaning Mala. Actually suddenly believe her reaction to Ausuka questioning her and to the not-gladiate. For example, I think I believe her when she says she is not afraid of admitting she's wrong. And I liked this explanation of why she didn't like Arko's post because it didn't seem written to sound super nice or convincing or fancy. And... when everyone unveiled a scumread on Mala yesterday I just had a gut feeling that a miselim was brewing.

Maybe Ydrasse good vibes but maybe not ready to admit this to myself yet

[Aisa]

(I'm reading through the thread at the moment)

BUT (but!) if you scumread hedging we're indeed gonna have a problem

If DGB were to change their mind that makes them scum automatically then?

Hmm?
Uh... the opposite?
DGB seems to be scumreading me for hedging. I'm implying that she shouldn't do that. Because I hedge all the time.

If she changed her mind that wouldn't make her automatically scum. Nor do I have much of a read on her now. It would just be Another Thing.

OK then I misinterpreted, I was gonna break down why that doesn't make sense bc yeah, ty

Sorry, that was a bit snappy. You're welcome.

[Aisa]

and that kowah is… either very towny new or very wolfy new which is like “thanks it says nothing” but the vibe towards koba is very ai i think and i invite other people to comment on that

The analogy is not 100% but Kowah's general vibe reminds me of this recent town game. Gun to head town, though not a lot to go off of

[Aisa]

Ok, finally, two Shirou posts that pinged me

For real now though.

I'm skeptical you believed so hard so easily that I really was a gladiator in a Mini Normal.

The unique reason I'm not sure you were faking it is because I think you are an older player that isn't too active nowadays, so maybe you didn't know that detail.

Mmmm well when that whole discussion happened my first thought was "oh shit what if he actually is a gladiator??"
Then I was like "oh wait this is a mini normal phew"

So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ disagree it's hard to believe that she believed it

I'm still skeptical of your reaction though, it felt a bit overplayed just like your mastina "why are you letting her get away with it?".

I think this part is fine

I was even willing to buy your high confidence on Mastina being scum until you walked back on that rather quickly, coincidentally when most people showed more support for Mastina being town.

This just Pings Me. I can't explain it with completely airtight logic, it just does.

It would be a really long almost philosophical talk to detail precisely why in the linguistics, but the way you've been talking about things recently sounds to me like scum testing waters to see what kind of position you should take in the game in summary.

Dunno, not a very strong read though.

Does anyone actually... do this? If so fair enough. But as scum I never do this. If I sense my push is backfiring I take it back, obviously. But I never think "let's just push this slot a liiittle and if the townies seem to like it I will push it more".

I'm still squinting at Kowah as well.

Hmm

Let's try this once more
VOTE: Shirou

[Aisa]

Neisieneioroenejoo

Ent
What is what’s post

I can’t xoxo her

Feel like I should hitch a bite on a norticyeoe to get back to my Ron faster

I don't suppose you could explain what a "neisieneioroenejoo" and a "norticyeoe" are...?

[Aisa]

Okay so Italiano is town.

What prompted this conclusion?

[Aisa]

Generally, I'm here but not sure what to talk about yet. Anyone else around?

[Aisa]

There are 2-3 slots I feel pretty good about townreading.
Then there is an infinity of slots that I could townlean based on really not very much.

If all the townleans were indeed town then I would barely have 3 slots left to scumread. Also town, would be in complete control of the game. Which is not impossible, but... a very suspect conclusion.

[Aisa]

dv, mala, mastina, xof
arko, dgb, koba
shirou, italiano
ausuka, aisa
kowah

~

you ever get the feeling you’re horribly wrong when you make a readslist or is it just me
also this is made without team input except for a few things they previously brought up, i’ll talk to them later about it

Why is mastina so towny?

[Aisa]

I'm back for like 30 minutes

There are 2-3 slots I feel pretty good about townreading.
Then there is an infinity of slots that I could townlean based on really not very much.

If all the townleans were indeed town then I would barely have 3 slots left to scumread. Also town, would be in complete control of the game. Which is not impossible, but... a very suspect conclusion.

Remember you have too many townreads ONLY once you have no room for scum

Mm I appreciate the encouragement though this sort of thinking hasn't proved true for me historically. Unless you're making more of a playstyle comment by encouraging me to believe in the PoE until there's evidence to the contrary. Which goes against my nature most of the time, but I can give it a try, I guess

Okay so Italiano is town.

What prompted this conclusion?

The AtE plucked my heartstrings.

Well, thanks, though you remain inscrutable as ever to me

[Aisa]

Aisa: thinks that I could be being pocketed bc of the early townbin + interactions after that gave him chills related to an earlier game that I assume was an aisa scumgame
I've yet to look into this but it was enough for me to drop aisa a few spots(not into poe tho), and be more critical of her.

Grrr
Tell Mena I want to speak to his manager

[Aisa]

Mena thoughts heavily summarized bc I'm actually going back out today:

Spoiler: Mena thoughts

Aisa: thinks that I could be being pocketed bc of the early townbin + interactions after that gave him chills related to an earlier game that I assume was an aisa scumgame
I've yet to look into this but it was enough for me to drop aisa a few spots(not into poe tho), and be more critical of her.

mastina: pleads the 5th, does not wish to read her or has the brain power to read her. To that I say, same

Mala: "meh" - seems more active than scumgames but has scum vibes, would say more town than scum but plausibility of team Mafia format giving that WIM is an angle I've presented and Mena agrees, drunk posting was a huge ??? Because not a single thing was game related

Xof: not gonna sugar coat this - Mena gave me the hedgiest read ever and I got him to say gth town but insists that it's a read that needs time to solidify

Dgb: says the iso is such a nothingburger that it should be killed with fire, I countered that dgb is like that as town and I got him to bump it down to a scumlean for the purposes of exploring other worlds(that's since changed since this is reads from this morning)
Italiano: he had the most to say about this but overall he went in depth and saw that the slot is just saying things and not really doing anything. Overall in agreement with the points pb has presented too and my own vibe on the slot(essentially our teams most preferred elimination atm)

Dv: leans this town, especially likes that they were pushing for answers to questions and were essentially still trying to be heard when ignored. The content when they elaborate on stuff is pretty good as well they pointed out, such as 241. I agree with this also.

Arko: felt they were awkward in 504 and has them as nullscum. I haven't really read into arko so I'm just sponging



He didn't talk about anyone else, if anyone wants more from Mena feel free to ask tho, but I'm mostly driving the ship here and you have to convince me first :p

On one hand that proves Mena being involved in the game isn't completely made up since he mentioned my scumgame, on the other hand Mena's other takes are, if I may, kind of a nothingburger and could be made up without too much effort

Aisa: thinks that I could be being pocketed bc of the early townbin + interactions after that gave him chills related to an earlier game that I assume was an aisa scumgame
I've yet to look into this but it was enough for me to drop aisa a few spots(not into poe tho), and be more critical of her.

Grrr
Tell Mena I want to speak to his manager

He did a little spin and then said "hello the manager is here what can I do for you?"

Hello
your employee is insinuating that I am evil by saying I gave him "the chills"
I want a refund

[Aisa]

i spoke to my team about italiano some
some think he’s wolfy some think he’s town
the more i think about it though the impression of this game i get is that like a lot of people or teams are saying he’s weird or wolfy but it’s like no one is actually willing to vote him or even build up a wagon which like i think part of that could be that our game has some fairly quiet slots but on the other hand why is no wagon taking off. i kind of think the mafia might be reticent to start a wagon on their own or wagon together

I've had this thought about no wagon taking off as well.

One reason I've been focusing a bit more on higher post volume slots is that I think it's better for the gamestate. I'd rather get some conversation going with someone who posts a lot, make something happen.

[Aisa]

Hi, I was hoping for people to react to some of the stuff I said but it looks like things are still sluggish. I'm around now, is there anything people want to talk about? especially from the people who have been less active recently

If you think Ydra is scum is there a reason you're proposing an Italiano wagon to her?
Found myself thinking your post on Italiano from yesterday or two days ago seemed fair, but I haven't thought about Italiano a lot so far, so that's on my to-do list.

[Aisa]

I'm not interested in voting either shirou and ydrasse today

VOTE: ydrasse science

Mena told me to go hard on dgb(as in kill it) but I disagree for now but have that as his most recent thought - he also disagrees with the vote but I want info not a stale gamestate

VOTE: shirou
science part 2

eyebrow wiggle wiggle
what's this

[Aisa]

Wherein I try more to make sense of Shirou's posting

Spoiler:

@Aisa
Fire told me to remind you of that game where he tunneled town!you, and then he says for you to keep going as you're because he's reading you as town right now and it's amusing him you're the one in the wrong this time

Happy to be of service

Spoiler: Shirou on Ydrasse

I don't feel like you posted anything spicy so yeah if push came to shove I could vote you I guess

p-edit: sometimes you type a lot of words but I don't get warm feelings from it so it's a nothingburguer in my mind

What's this "if push came to shove"? I want to understand how your mind thinks about votes and wagons. Why was this not an immediate vote-Ydrasse? Why is your vote on Mala at the moment? Do you feel that you should be pushing Mala more or are you content with keeping your vote there and seeing what happens?

Spoiler: Shirou on Ydrasse and my post

I think that was Xof.
What did you think of my post on Ydra? Take your time I don't need an answer this very second

Let me re:read it

Thoughts on Ydra.

Gun to head I would still call her null. Some of her posting feels quite natural. She's doing some scumhunting and while I don't always find her conclusions super solid I can easily see the world where her ISO is her actual thought process at this time.

But there is this one thing that bugs me:

I feel like the (look like I have thoughts) to (thoughts) ratio in her ISO is quite high.

Mostly because (look like I have thoughts) is so high. She has a supremely easy to follow ISO at the moment because every little action and implication is made explicit. This is pro-town but perhaps something scum are even more incentivised to do than town?

Vote / question someone -> unvote after their reply
Is definitely a pattern I've seen from scum before

I need to re:read her ISO at some points since I already forgot most of it probably but this does reminds me that she did

this

quite a bit as far as I actually remember. She also directly engaged with Deas though? I don't remember the context as well as I do remember that it was a mailing flavored post!

Huh? You think I only remember the useless details? Maybe.

Either way, I think your analysis was okay, and Mastina seemed to talk about something similar to this argument with a different language/words (noise/signal or so).

What is this thing she did, this "this"? Is it a different thing or the same thing that made you suspicious a couple days ago (you were saying that Ydrasse's posts felt like they had a lot of words and didn't feel noteworthy).

Realise this is kind of an interrogation, thanks in advance if you wanna answer ~

[Aisa]

I'd also be interested if you could like, elaborate on your thoughts about Italiano and my post about him? Or at least like start taking a look at him, since I think he's been a pretty major point of focus so far

I can elaborate on my thoughts so far:
I agreed with your point that it doesn't feel like he's done much this game. By this I mean that he hasn't really put out much analysis or pushed someone very strongly. I think this could be like moderately scum indicative.
I also remember at some point having the thought "meh he's getting pushed for [behaviour], but I think [behaviour] is a personality thing, not a scummy thing" but I cannot remember in relation to what behaviour I thought this.

I'll take an actual look at all the stuff on him tomorrow, I have reached my tolerance for Judging People's Alignments today I think (no it wasn't very high to begin with)

[Aisa]

What's this "if push came to shove"? I want to understand how your mind thinks about votes and wagons. Why was this not an immediate vote-Ydrasse?

I'm not even sure if that's the correct phrase given english isn't my first language but it means something akin to "last resort", so in mafia terms, it meant I was at that moment willing to compromisse on Ydrasse if my main suspect(s) weren't viable today (at this moment, that being Malakittens).

I think that is the correct phrase (:

Why is your vote on Mala at the moment? Do you feel that you should be pushing Mala more or are you content with keeping your vote there and seeing what happens?

My vote is on her because I think she's the most likely to be scum right now?

That's not obvious, haha - for example I just forget to change my vote or vote someone other than my top scumread for *reasons* a lot of the time

About what I feel I should do, it depends. A considerable number of people including my teammates TRs her so I'm hesitant and worried I may be wrong, therefore although I think If I wanted to very very seriously/confidently elim her today I should push her more, I do not enjoy feeling dumb with the outcome of my pushes like some of my past games and am refraining for now of being too noisy/loud about my push on her.

If you want to more specifically know what I'm talking about, read a bit of Mini Normal 2088 and the last Large Theme Dance Game, maybe Open 870 White Flag a bit in the last day as well.

as said in Normal 2088, I've come to think of mafia games as some sort of alternative gacha games where although I do my best to attempt having the best probabilities on it, anything can happen and the dice ultimately decides. I don't have enough confidence on Mala at the moment to warp the game about my read on her and risk public humiliation if wrong.

I did remember/notice your post where you mentioned that you were trying to play "zen" after asking that question, so it's nice that this checks out

What is this thing she did, this "this"? Is it a different thing or the same thing that made you suspicious a couple days ago (you were saying that Ydrasse's posts felt like they had a lot of words and didn't feel noteworthy).

Yeah it's kinda the same thing, by "this" I meant this part of your post on her (I even bolded but maybe you missed it):

I feel like the (look like I have thoughts) to (thoughts) ratio in her ISO is quite high.

Thanks - I did notice it just wasn't 100% sure what you meant

UNVOTE:
For now

I gotta think about other slots now
sadness

[Aisa]

what does "look like i have thoughts" even mean in comparison to just having them
is it presentation or the way i talk because i literally dont. get it.

@dv i dont think itll make them more likely to post but i have an idea of what id expect from town arko vs scum based on skimming their other games

Not sure if this was directed at me or at Shirou. But to explain this better:

When I said that I felt like your posts contained a lot of exposition. For example, you voted then unvoted me, and when you unvoted you explained your whole thought process on me up to that point.

One thing that makes me townread people is when I feel like there is more thought in a post than first meets the eye.
For example, I might be suspicious of a slot. Then someone else might make a post where they don't state an explicit scumread but from the wording / implication of the argument I think they are also suspicious of the same slot.
I guess I also tend townread slots that just seem to have quite nuanced thought processes. Xofelf's posts in this game are a good example.

Your posts were more like "I townread [slot] for [simple reason]" and there's nothing wrong with that posting style inherently, it's just that my mind sees it and goes "??? cannot know what alignment this person is"

[Aisa]

what does "look like i have thoughts" even mean in comparison to just having them
is it presentation or the way i talk because i literally dont. get it.

@dv i dont think itll make them more likely to post but i have an idea of what id expect from town arko vs scum based on skimming their other games

Not sure if this was directed at me or at Shirou. But to explain this better:

When I said that I felt like your posts contained a lot of exposition. For example, you voted then unvoted me, and when you unvoted you explained your whole thought process on me up to that point.

One thing that makes me townread people is when I feel like there is more thought in a post than first meets the eye.
For example, I might be suspicious of a slot. Then someone else might make a post where they don't state an explicit scumread but from the wording / implication of the argument I think they are also suspicious of the same slot.
I guess I also tend townread slots that just seem to have quite nuanced thought processes. Xofelf's posts in this game are a good example.

Your posts were more like "I townread [slot] for [simple reason]" and there's nothing wrong with that posting style inherently, it's just that my mind sees it and goes "??? cannot know what alignment this person is"

So I think my point was that
to me, some town slots feel like they have so many thoughts they can't help but spill some of them into their posting even without intending to
and that felt absent from your posting up to that point

[Aisa]

Spoiler:

What do you think town would have done differently there?

No I wasn't actually scumreading Koba

Town does a lot of different things, so who knows, but I would've taken it in stride and kept an eye on them. My point is why ask a question if your vote is a forgone conclusion. To clarify, I'm not saying your vote was, but that's how I perceived it. You asked, I answered, my answers weren't good enough for you, vote.

Ok, so what about that suggests it was a foregone conclusion? Isn't that just contradictory to the idea that your answers weren't good enough?

My perception.

I can kind of understand townreading Italiano's ate but I don't think there's anything substantial from him. His play doesn't really feel like genuine scumhunting to me at all.

I think the most egregious part of his play so far was when I asked about his scumread on my questioning and he tried to play it off as "I'm not saying your read was fake, but my perception was that it is" which is obviously bizarre.

When I asked about it he just repeated that it's his perception without like elaborating on the read. It felt like he was saying something he couldn't back up, and it definitely did not feel like a genuine thought process.

On rereading, I think the bolded makes the original interaction sound worse than it was. Italiano's post seems fairly straightforward, he's saying something like "I got this feeling that you were going to scumread me no matter what I said. I'm not saying you were but that's just what it felt like." I think this is a normal thing to say?

Especially because "you were going to scumread me no matter what" is not particularly nice to say to someone who could be town. It implies that the person could be being irrational, asking pointless questions, so it's natural he wanted to sweeten it by clarifying that's the subjective feeling he felt.

What is bizarre to me is that Italiano did not point this out sooner, he votes Ausuka in his next post but didn't say anything.

On the other hand Italiano's push is certainly unusual ("I got the feeling you were going to scumread me no matter what" is probably not going to be persuasive to anyone other than him) so I wouldn't say it's like, amazingly towny either.

Other than that push the main things he has done is the AtE, making the shit-stirry comment about DGB and like, making broad strokes about activity instead of actually solving. I think there is a lack of genuine scumhunting in his posts and like I have not seen a compelling reason to townread him aorn.

I think the generic point that he hasn't done that much that is obviously towny is valid.

Just worth saying explicitly that Italiano has mentioned it might just be that his playstyle is unusual and he does strike me as a bit of an unconventional player. And that's what's playing in my mind right now; I don't think the slot is conventionally towny but I'm trying to figure out how to adjust to his character.

[Aisa]

Oh I see Shirou made a similar point in 768 sorry kinda glossed over that posting earlier

[Aisa]

I'm down to wagon Italiano today but I find Ausuka's reaction to Shirou's scumread more actively suspicious so I'm gonna hop on here for now.
VOTE: Ausuka

[Aisa]

if this is true I don't think it changes that his push on me was stretched and like, again, when I asked about it to see if there was a plausible explanation, he wouldn't indicate what about the things I said gave the impression I was always going to vote him. This is the only reason he's given for scumreading me, who is apparently his strongest read in the game by a lot, and I don't think the interaction (or lack of it) really makes sense for town who is trying to sort me

Ah, perfect, you've reminded me of something I wanted to say. I agree that all the points you've brought up here are worrying! I don't think his behaviour is especially indicative of town. Which is why I'm ultimately willing to wagon here today!

The caveat I'd give is... I feel like I've seen plenty of townies who could have solved 90% of their problems by elaborating on their thought process in the right way. And who ultimately don't.

Working on a post about your reaction to Shirou's case, btw

[Aisa]

Oh no I had the post in my clipboard but then I ctrl+c d something else ;_;

[Aisa]

Ok I recovered my draft by pressing the back button thank goodness I think I would have screamed if not

Spoiler: Wall

Spoiler: Shirou's case

In my defense I'm often this friendly with at least one person in games so I would argue it's very NAI for me given how common it is

Is pocketing people by joking with them or being nice a scum tactic which you employ often?

Hmm, well yeah a bit? I do it as either alignment like I said above, contrary to what some people may think I do like being nice to people when I can!

What I'm trying to ask is, when you're scum, do you do this with the specific idea to pocket people?

It's half because of my personality and the other half because it's advantageous for my wincon yeah

Her posts aren't

bad

but at the same time it's mostly questioning other people without much input on a game solve from herself, and it feels like busywork at certain points given in the above she asks me twice for what I see as the same topic, not to mention I had already said it was NAI for me from the start.

Even if it was to clarify whether I did it completely for being me or as strictly as game advantageous, I do think her definition of pocketing not including being "nice"/humoring the other player as not something I would expect from town!Ausuka solving in her full capacity. Could it be a wrong expectation? Probably but it's what I believe in.

It was back when DKKoba had first voted me so I saw it as more her coming up with something to interact w/ me for shading or busywork than because it would help her sort my slot. Other than a scumread on Italiano that didn't see a lot of progress through the days, I don't think Ausuka visibly progressed in her reads too much from her questioning, apart from Ydra which was a wacky interaction to me by itself (can expand on it later).

So far Ausuka has felt to me like she's trying to look like she's solving more than actually coming around a gamesolve, and her questions purpose being to question/indirectly shade something itself rather than get an insight from the other's party reply.

I'm pretty tired right now but I'll try to keep expanding on this read in the following days. I wonder if I still have enough energy or time to push this today though.

I'd summarise this as:
- Most of Ausuka's posts are questioning other people. She doesn't post much analysis herself. Sometimes it feels like busywork.
- She uses a broad definition of "pocketing"
- Her reads don't seem to be evolving. The only things she's done is stating a scumread on Italiano and her read on Ydra has evolved.

First, in favour of Ausuka, I find a lot of her questions actually useful. I like that she's trying to clarify things. I think it's useful to establish what someone meant 100% so they can't claim it was something else later.

Spoiler: Ausuka

I've wondered if Italiano/Ausuka could be a bus, but at the moment I think:

> Ausuka interactions toward Italiano potentially feels like a bus

> Italiano interactions towards Ausuka doesn't feel like a bus, it feels like he's struggling to understand her rather than focusing on distancing/looking good on each other flips

Ok please show me where he is "struggling to understand me"

You have literally refused to engage on italiano the entire game apart from "aPpEaL to EmOtIon" and just like not talking about any of his actual posting.

Here she introduces the accusation that Shirou has "refused to engage on Italiano the entire game apart from commenting on his AtE". It's not clear to me at this point why she thinks this is relevant. I also feel like "not talking about any of his actual posting" is an unfair standard: Italiano's AtE is posting.

Spoiler: Ausuka

Like half the game is either doing nothing for the past few days or spent it on a vote for arko because he didn't post anything and I'm the one not solving when I actually have a push I want to make and a case for it which you have just been incredibly dismissive about

If.italiano flips scum at any point Shirou needs to die 100% of the time

Maybe this clarifies her point. It seems to be:
- Shirou is suspecting her for not solving, but
- Shirou is dismissing her push on Italiano, and
- Half of the game has done less solving.

I think there's some merit to these points, but I think Shirou's point is closer to "given the fact Ausuka has been engaging with the game, it doesn't feel like she's achieved much".

Then they get into a bit of a discussion about whether Italiano is struggling to understand Ausuka. Shirou originally brought this up only briefly to talk about associatives between Ausuka and Italiano. This doesn't feel like the main point so I'm not super interested in it. Giving the benefit of the doubt to Ausuka, you could say that here she's trying to understand Shirou.

Spoiler: Ausuka

Well semantic discussion aside, do you disagree with my take that you've done a lot of questioning but hasn't given a lot of stances/explaining your stances in the game so far?

Yeah I think your take is horseshit

Why? Saying you're doing more than other slots is pretty fair and I realize it may be incredibly frustrating in that scenario to be pushed if you're town here, however effort ultimately isn't alignment indicative especially for you I think. You put effort in your scum games so Italiano issue aside, how is that not a description of your play here vs most other town games where I saw you be more whimsical about your reads/sharing takes.

maybe because if I'm doing more than other slots that implies I'm not doing nothing and you said I was doing nothing

Here Ausuka says Shirou's take is bad because he said she was doing nothing, but she was doing something. This seems insufficient to prove her point to me.

Conclusion:

Shirou's case is that ~Ausuka's posting is not solvy enough. Ausuka's main point seems to be - "no, look, I've been solving more than half the game. I made a push and you've dismissed it. What more do you want?"

I'm less sure Ausuka is scum than before I started writing this post, though I still think her posting is stretching a little.

I'm sure that if she's town, from her POV she's been solving. But her responses don't actually address the concerns I have about her slot or tell me much I didn't know before Shirou's case. Before Shirou's case, I would have told you: "Ausuka's questions are good, but I don't see anything scum cannot fake and her posting's kinda light on analysis or attempts to drive the game". The concerns are all the same now.

So I find it a bit suspicious that she's implying Shirou's take is bad when fmpov it's all reasonable concerns

[Aisa]

My biggest objection to that is that like I think it's not 'wrong' communication but ultimately a refusal to do so which i think shows a lack of interest in my alignment

Ok. My point is exactly that I think you're taking a slighly narrow view of what "being interested in your alignment" looks like
But ultimately it is maybe a bit scum indicative so idk maybe we're just saying the same thing emphasising different aspects

Also italiano does have a decent chance of flipping town but like it's day 1 and I think basically no wagon can meet the standard of "town could never do this"

I agree with this

[Aisa]

I'm catching up as we speak. I just reread Arko's last two posts
and
you know what
I'm ok with that wagon

[Aisa]

Ok I've finished rereading stuff and I'm surprisingly ok with the top 3 wagons (Arko, Ausuka, and Italiano). They're all like challenging in different ways and I could see myself voting each of them for some reason.

If people want to eliminate Arko they should consider how they would feel about eliminating the slot without a claim, or about eliminating someone who just replaced into the game. I'd feel best about waiting for a claim but I'll also eliminate without one if it comes down to it.

Arko:

obviously hasn't posted much and has been promising catch ups that don't always come.
But as I think I've mentioned before, I played with town them once and they mentioned how hard they found it to develop reads in that game too. This, to me, is the best reason to townread them: their lack of motivation here reminds me of their lack of motivation in previous games. The pace of their posts feels believable to me.
But I worry they've been leaning their meta a bit to avoid giving reads.

Ausuka:

I suspect this slot mainly for her interactions with Italiano, which is ironic given I'm also willing to wagon Italiano. There is some stuff about this in my ISO. I'm partly going off reputation - I feel like she'd be quite decent as scum so even though some of her posts are not bad I'm taking them with a grain of salt.

Italiano:

recent posting looks quite towny in some ways but if I squint juuust right I can see how scum could fake it. And there are posts that ping me. For example, this post:

To bad I can't post what's in our discord. I'll show you post game.

and i am pretty certain you are lying about it lmao

Okay.

Like I said, I'll show you post game and you can feel foolish when you actually see it.

I guess it does not seem totally out of character for town!Italiano. But I worry it could be an attempt to scare the readers into believing him.

[Aisa]

Anyway I'm starting to feel a lot better about your slot Ausuka. As I said I think not having played with each before I'm guessing there is a leraning curve here. This interaction was good for me, not sure if it was for you, but I am feeling a lot better about this and maybe I was just wrong and caught up in the moment.

Can you say more precisely the moment you re-evaluated your read and what made you re-evaluate it?

Aisa

- From her first post to her last I've gotten nothing but good feels from Aisa. She even scumreads people in an adorable way. I don't think I've ever played with her, but I'm very happy that potentially my last game on site has her in it. As I said if she is scum I'm gonna be very sad.

I appreciate this (:

[Aisa]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

[Aisa]

They don't explicitly appeal to their meta anywhere I don't think
I mean that in general you'd aim to at least reproduce your town meta as scum, and if you happened to be a bit indecisive or slow to form reads you might... lean into that a bit

Sorry but i'm still not really getting this. What is your read on arko exactly? It kind of looked like you wrote a post that would defend him and the last line felt a bit, uh, tacked-on; is the explanation for arko not posting anything that anyone would townread and about to get replaced really a purposeful attempt to replicate his town meta in your eyes?

At first I thought the same thing you’re saying here: Arko sounds demotivated like in his previous town games. Why would he try to replicate this as scum? If he were more motivated he could… literally do anything else. Make up a read. And if he isn’t motivated, why didn’t he get replaced earlier? What are the odds his motivation level as scum exactly matches his motivation level as town?

But then I thought… what

if

his motivation level is similar as scum? What if he wants to play but feels intimidated by the red role PM? That made me second guess myself

I was pretty confused last night but tbh writing this out right now I feel like I’m stretching a little on the possibility of Arko!scum

But townreading Arko has all sorts of implications and I can’t townread Arko without comparing with the other two wagons. I can’t do this rn so I will do it tonight

[Aisa]

mastina, I hope you take care of yourself. That sounds super scary.

[Aisa]

my issue with it is that like

idk if italiano is town how do i resolve that
it was a few posts above him
it was a long set of posts for me with quotes for each vote
i talked about him and said his name and etc

and it was like very soon after he posted his stuff, if he got peditted or something whatever i could maybe buy that but he doesn’t follow up or try to engage when i spoke about the thing he wanted commentary on and i literallt said i’m being trolled and he replied and like idk to me if someone said that i’d read back and try to figure out why but

if he’s just being careless town i don’t know how i’m supposed to distinguish that from being a wolf trying to look busy and it makes me feel like he’s just saying stuff

i feel like i’m beating a dead horse but my god

Have been lurking a little and I’ve been finding myself investing in Ydrasse stock and coming around to essentially this point of view.

Italiano can only be townread if you buy that his play here is his meta and this is outside his scumrange. But if this were elo, you’d wanna double check, right? You’d wanna do what Ausuka is doing and check out his meta. You’d press for More Satisfying answers to your questions.

And maybe that’s got to count for something.

(This said I’m not going to make any decisions until I sit down in front of my laptop which is not now)

[Aisa]

hot take

VOTE: Drippinggoofball

This is our best chance of limming scum today. she's also an inactive, her interaction with my wagon was awful, and she comes to conclusions like 'locktowning' shirou and confidently stating Italiano is town without much if any analysis while also arguing that doing so is scum behaviour

VOTE: Ausuka

I'll try later to post Ali most recent reads/opinions on this game if there's still time

kinda lazy right now

I swear, Shirou, you, and… and your ridiculous levels of towniness and your hopping between wagons making me question everything

[Aisa]

I swear, Shirou, you, and… and your ridiculous levels of towniness and your hopping between wagons making me question everything

like c'mon she stays on italiano the entire game, I call it out, she begins to pivot on it near the flip and now is calling me sus again

it's like textbook getting ready to push me on italiano flipping town

It’s ok I wouldn’t let her hurt you if she tried that


*for now

[Aisa]

[…]
I don't think it does. I don't view the arko wagon as being motivated to oppose mine - I think people want to kill arko because they think arko is sus or because he's a target which is easy to justify. […]

The arko wagon is just meh to me. I get it? I'm not excited about it. I would prefer to just let that slot get replaced I guess.

This resonated. It awakened old memories of seeing the Arko wagon and thinking “really? ”. Its a wagon on a random lurky slot that I don’t especially scumread, that I accept because the slot needs to be resolved at some point somehow. Maybe the Freedom replacement’ll bring nice things.

hot take

VOTE: Drippinggoofball

This is our best chance of limming scum today. she's also an inactive, her interaction with my wagon was awful, and she comes to conclusions like 'locktowning' shirou and confidently stating Italiano is town without much if any analysis while also arguing that doing so is scum behaviour

I also support this. Don’t know about it being our best chance (feels like a fairly random pick), but this slot needs to be held accountable for its reads at some point. Timing bit awkward but generally would love to see more of this

[Aisa]

I swear, Shirou, you, and… and your ridiculous levels of towniness and your hopping between wagons making me question everything

like c'mon she stays on italiano the entire game, I call it out, she begins to pivot on it near the flip and now is calling me sus again

it's like textbook getting ready to push me on italiano flipping town

On a serious note
1. The Italiano or Ausuka thing worried me briefly as well but I dismissed it quickly
2. I’m just not sure it’s an especially scummy thing to do. What’s scummy about it? I feel like town can have second thoughts towards the end of a day too? I don’t feel like scum have a special need to line up a push before the day ends?

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:
i haven't read all the posts nor do I have any intention to right now

[Aisa]

I'm sorry Shirou i'm not sure Ausuka is scum
I'll reply to your question tomorrow

[Aisa]

Most surreal VT role PM I've ever had