[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's not close to being balanced.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Jailkeeper is much stronger than Bodyguard, especially when there aren't that many scum (e.g. once 1 scum dies, jailkeeper becomes cop-like)..

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Looks a tad town-sided, but within tolerance. I wouldn't run it without some form of confirmation voting system though - otherwise every town vote risks a quicklynch.

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So? If scum can govern whomever, then the town can't achieve anything on those Days; the whole Day might as well be replaced by an automated scum death.

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Re: Doubles Mafia - Scum is so much weaker when they go down to 1 member that the obvious strategy is to no-kill N1 (alt: shooting at a claimed RB) and try to get two mislynches D1 and D2. Seems a bit silly overall in terms of play.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If scum gets lynched D1, no-killing N1 is optimal

Not just N1 by the bye - killing a townie risks giving town enough confirmeds to clinch the game. Trackers and roleblockers are mucho powerful vs. one scum.

but in the event of a town lynch, killing N1 is probably optimal.

If you manage to kill a townie, I'd expect the town to be able to figure out who made the kill between their two guaranteed town roles and 4 night actions. The only downside of no-lynching is that you have to avoid the roleblocker next Night - that's not that big a deal.

Even if they get tracked, they can force a 50/50 in lylo the next day.

If someone claims a tracker guilty on you and you counterclaim, yeah, you're getting lynched. That's no 50/50.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Fool wins are the

least

glorious wins in mafia in my opinion

Fixed!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Izak, are you under the misconception that regular vengefuls end when the godfather gets vengekilled? Regular vengeful is balanced, so I'm not sure why you're proposing a variant that is obviously town-slanted compared to regular vengeful otherwise.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Here's an example for ya, izak.

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I linked to the second game. And I believe neither had any communication by code (although Iammars tried to in the second game). Just purely judging people by their votes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Re-posting 2 set-up ideas of mine for reference (since I intend to run them):

Semi-Nightless:
2-9 all vanilla, scum can't kill N1 or N2.

Diffusion of Power:
4-6 of {N1 Cop, N2 Cop, N3 Cop, N4 Cop, N5 Cop}
6-4 of {N1 Doc, N2 Doc, N3 Doc, N4 Doc, N5 Doc}
3 Goons
+ Rule to exclude the more extreme scenarios to make it less swingy.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You can have multiple N1 Docs (for example), yes.

(And Faraday is correct. Every town player gets to action exactly once.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just Cop/Doc (to prevent hypoclaims from bogging down the game).

And yes, a N1 Cop can do exactly that. It's certainly optimal play if he has a guilty but claiming an innocent early wouldn't be particularly useful.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I like KK's. BB's suggestion is town-sided (just consider what happens if one scum gets lynched.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If the Daykill resolves during the Day, scum will just save it for LyLo to win instantly.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

-Scum have a One-Shot Strongman Nightkill that can be used by either Mafia member

The word you're looking for is "factional".

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

By having few non-VT roles and disincentivizing claiming (e.g. Macho Cops).

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In Opens like that you need to watch out for VTs becoming a named role though. Best to avoid them.

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Nope.

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Yup.

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Potential for town death just means you have to regulate it. It's still a really pro-town mechanic.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

"safer"

It's completely trivial to avoid anyone dying from 2 vigs targetting the same person. E.g. just assign 6 players to be vigs and let them pick different targets. One of the vigs'll be prevented by the roleblock, but that's fine - you still got another 5 town-directed kills out of the bargain.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That'll just mean the correct strategy is to try to identify a townie and then sheep that townie. If the natural way to play the game is suboptimal, it's probably just not a good set-up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?

Pretty sure they die after shooting since otherwise the set-up doesn't really make sense.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Whereas in regular nightless you'd get someone non-scummy lynched? I'd argue you have more incentive to not get rid of the scummiest in Popcorn since they in turn get a kill if town.

(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)

Re: Whiskers' doc/vig combo, seems simpler to just make it one role? That's a role I actually considered using at some point.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. My point is that in regular games, town players behaving scummy are a big problem, since they create mislynches. In this game, they are less of a problem

I'm not sure whether you mean "getting mislynched" or "mislynching other people" by "create mislynches", but either way I don't see how? They're still going to get shot (which is equivalent to getting lynched) and once they get shot they now have a dayvig to misuse which only increases their influence compared to a normal people.

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Yes. We call that type of set-up Smalltown.

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Town Encryptor that gives the scum daytalk is not unheard of.

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Bodyguard tends to be pretty awkward in Semi-Opens or Opens because the power they have just by having a named role conflicts with their actual power.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Switching Doc for BP from the Cop-MafiaRB to the JK-MafiaRB set-up does probably improve balance slightly but my experience with 2of4 (and the general principle of being careful with multiple protective roles) tells me that Doc-JK in a set-up is unfun and leads to drawn out games.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

For reasons not quite clear to me, that made me think of a possible improvement for Matrix6: what about replacing the 1-shot BP with a Universal Back-up (I'd probably drop the Universal part of the role name to avoid it looking too intimidating)? Seems like a reasonable and straightforward enough role (especially in a semi-open where you have a very good idea of what your role does) and I think it interacts nicely with both Jailkeeper and Tracker although admittedly it interacts less nicely with the Mafia RB.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

First dead town PR, so he takes over either as Tracker or Jailkeeper if they die depending on set-up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, that's definitely not something you would want to happen (a Mafia RBlynch is painful enough for scum as is) and I don't really think that's a good way of running that role in general since there are plenty of Mafia PRs that either don't work or work very differently in town hands.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Neither the Tracker nor the Cop can be in a format with the Doctor. Period.

And the Jailkeeper can't be with the Doctor either. It's a fuckin logic puzzle!! >:0(

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Cop	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Goon
  2	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker	Vanilla Town
  3	Town 1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor

This is the best arrangement with the current five PRs, methinks. Not sure if replacing 1-Shot Bulletproof with a Backup would fix things.

Possibly horrible idea-- replace 1-Shot with a Watcher?

Both the MafiaRB-Cop-Doctor and Goon-Tracker-Doctor are imperfect but they're still better than 4 out of 6 of those set-ups (both Cop set-ups are clearly town-sided, 2 is clearly scum-sided and B is just dreadful).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

No. 1 and B are definitely scum-sided. 3 and A seem unfun and icky. 2 and C are okay but not great.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Tracker is just pretty weak as long as both scum are alive in a set-up with no actions besides the nightkill. I don't see one doing much more than getting nightkilled in most iterations of that set-up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

A 1-shot or full bulletproof townie shouldn't be in this setup at all. We get enough problems with newbies trying gambits or lying as town without experience or knowing how to do so already. Do we want to start their first game by having the IC say "Ok, while SOMETIMES it's ok to lie as town...."

I think this is very exaggerated by the bye. I certainly don't think it's worth mentioning in the absence of dueling set-ups like Tracker-Doc vs. Tracker-1-shotBP.

My current best attempt is probably the following:

• 	A	B	C
  1	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Role Cop	Town Back-up
  2	Vanilla Townie	Town Cop	Mafia Goon
  3	Mafia Goon	Town Odd-Night Bulletproof	Town Tracker

I like the Odd-Night Bulletproof more than 1-shot because it provides a similar level of protection while making it less likely that town will have to no-lynch; it also makes it easier to play around town fake claims, if that were to come up.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unless I hear otherwise then I will move this (which needs a name):

I'd probably name it Rows & Columns.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

they are however always tracked to whoever is NK'ed by the mafia.

This is called a gravedigger. But hidden millers are not a fun mechanic.

I'll share a set-up we came up with at the last UK meet.

Chestnut Standoff:

1 Mafia Goon
1 Werewolf
3 Townies

The two scum know who each other are. If a townie is lynched D1, everyone loses.

EV is 1/3 for each faction (ignoring "everybody loses").