[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Hoopla]

True Love

Nightless

8 Players- 2 Mafia, 6 Townies

4 lover pairs.

It is known the configuration of lovers is:

1 townie-1 townie
1 townie-1 townie
1 townie-1 scum
1 townie-1 scum

Everyone is aware of who is paired with whom. Daytalking is allowed between both lovers and scum.

This has exactly 50% odds of being won by either town or scum. Sounds awesome to me.

That sounds really fun, I'd play it. I can't think of any problems with it, but then again I'm stupid.

[Hoopla]

Daytalk, Daykill Mafia (Nightless)
- 1 Mafia Godfather
- 2 Mafia Goon (with 1 daykill apiece)
- 3 Vigilante (with 1 daykill apiece)
- 6 Townie

Mafia are allowed to PM each other outside the thread. Kills are posted publicly in the thread. Mafia Goons need "permission" (Godfather PMs the mod) to kill if the Godfather is alive and active.

If the set-up is overpowered for the scum, maybe an auto-loss if the Godfather is lynched (not killed). Thoughts?

If I were town in that game, I'd propose the vigs DO NOT shoot ever, except to shoot those that break the rule. This forces scum to play along with a nightless 3:9 which seems tough for scum to win, with only two kills.

That might not break it completely, but I'm sure there are probably ways for this to be quite town biased.

[Hoopla]

If I were town in that game, I'd propose the vigs DO NOT shoot ever, except to shoot those that break the rule. This forces scum to play along with a nightless 3:9 which seems tough for scum to win, with only two kills.

That might not break it completely, but I'm sure there are probably ways for this to be quite town biased.

Maybe, all vigs claim straight up. If only the 3 vigs claim, you have 3 confirmed town players. This won't happen, so 1 or 2 scum would have to claim vig too, to muddy the water.

If you have 4 claimed vigs, ask them to shoot themself, one at a time until you find scum (town can vote on the order). The strategy works if there are 5 claimed vigs also.

[Hoopla]

Well...it's nightless 3:9, but whenver a mafia goon is about to get lynched, he'll take a townie down with him.

So, if the town never use their daykills...town has to lynch...let me think...if the godfather gets lynched last, then town loses if they mislynch 6 times, they have to lynch right 3 times out of 9; town has to lynch right 1/3 of the time.

Yeah, it's in favor of the town, considering that that's about what would happen if town lynches randomally.

In practice, though, attempts on the part of the town to restrict people from using daykills has been...abysmal at best.

Mmm yes, which is why I prompty changed the town plan to this;

Maybe, all vigs claim straight up. If only the 3 vigs claim, you have 3 confirmed town players. This won't happen, so 1 or 2 scum would have to claim vig too, to muddy the water.

If you have 4 claimed vigs, ask them to shoot themself, one at a time until you find scum (town can vote on the order). The strategy works if there are 5 claimed vigs also.

That makes it a lot harder for scum, and practically speaking, has a more realistic chance of actually happening.

[Hoopla]

10 Vanilla Town
2 Goons

Night Start

Goons do not know the other goon

Each night goons submit a list of all other players in their order of prefrence for night kills. Top spot gets X points (where X+1 is all living players), all the way down to last who get one. Points are added by the mod and the highest ranked town player gets killed.

As the game goes on the goons might be able to infer who the other one is a bit, and start playing like a team, just might be an interesting concept.

I really like this. I know mountainous set-ups are generally considered scum-biased, but I think not knowing your partner cuts down a lot of the scum's advantage. Maybe 8 townies?

[Hoopla]

I don't have a name lined up yet, but I was thinking about this yesterday;

- There are four powerroles; Jailkeeper, 1-shot-vig, Tracker, Role-Cop

- Three of these roles are chosen randomly.

- Of those three, the town gets two, and scum gets one (also determined randomly)

- 2 mafia vs. 8 townies, Daystart

My initial thoughts are there aren't any blindingly obvious breaking strategies. Even the potency of scum gaining the 1-shot-vig is minimalised by starting with even numbers, so a double-kill doesn't remove one of the three town mislynches. I randomly generated a few set-ups using this formula and I didn't see any obviously unbalanced games - this is probably due to each role having town and scum use.

But I'm worried there might be breaking strategies that emerge from the

amount

of powerroles being known in the game - an early scum PR lynch creates two confirmed town PR's which would be very hard to come back from. I wouldn't mind someone probing this concern further than I did, because it feels exploitable.

The obvious solution (if there is a problem), is to include additional options with fluctuating amounts of PR's, but I feel it is unwanted complexity, when the appeal to me is the very managable amount of scenarios possible. I don't want to increase that number too much.

I wouldn't mind some thoughts on this though.

[Hoopla]

I was thinking about solutions today. 1 scum PR, and then a fluctuating range of town PR's 1-3 seemed okay at first, but then it still leaves scum screwed in the situation you outlined. So, here is what I think;

0-2 Scum PR's, which leaves them plenty of options throughout the game, especially if they start bad. They can't get trapped by a massclaim.

1-2 or 1-3 Town PR's. 1-2 seems pretty low up against scum with potentially two PR's, but you still have to remember the town gets three mislynches, and roles such as Tracker and Jailkeeper increase in town value significantly once one scum is down, as they can start confirming players. If the town gets the vig, they get 3 mislynches and a night kill, which is a very fair deal considering they only need 2 correct lynches/kills to win.

I thought about 1-3 PR's and bringing in another role, but that just creates way too many scenarios, and to be honest I wouldn't know what else to use. You could calculate scum's roles first, and have town's PR options as '1-max available roles', so in the event scum get 2, town's PR options are now 1-2. But again, this seems unnecessarily complex.

I think I'm okay with this;

- There are four powerroles; Jailkeeper, 1-shot-vig, Tracker, Role-Cop

- Scum get 0-2 of these roles, chosen randomly by the moderator.

- Town get 1-2 of these roles, chosen randomly by the moderator.

- 2 mafia vs. 8 townies, Daystart

This gives enough safety to scum against an early massclaim, as town can't know how many roles each side has, and early exposure of PR's is more beneficial to scum. This also prevents the potential outlier cases of scum being lynched Day 1, and then roles such as Tracker and Jailkeeper quickly confirming townies, as these now can't be trusted as easily.

Looking at some worst-possible-draws for each set of roles, it isn't totally unfair;

Mafia 1-shot-vig
Mafia Jailkeeper
vs.
Town Role-Cop
5 x Vanilla townies

I'm not sure if this would be the worse set of possible roles for town, but it's the worse when it comes to amounts. This still gives the town 3 mislynches and a PR that could potentially give clues to the town. This isn't an unwinnable set-up for town, and definitely eclipses the worst-case-scenario for town in set-ups like F11.

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
vs.
Jailkeeper
1-shot-vig
4 x Vanilla townies

This isn't unwinnable for mafia - 3 mislynches isn't a lot when the first one is likely to be random. They do need to hit the Jailkeeper pretty early I think, and the vig could do damage, but they are safe from a massclaim and the roles chosen for town can't confirm any of them.

--

The difference between worst-case scenarios for town and scum isn't overly significant from what I can see, and should not differ too much with all the other combination of roles because they all have some town or scum value, because it almost serves as a natural balancing agent if you control the variable of how many each side can have.

To some it might seem unfair that scum has nearly the same odds of picking up as many or more PR's than town in a set-up (2:8) that would generally be scum biased. But when you look at what the roles actually do for scum, Tracker/Role-Cop serve as PR-finders, the vig provides a double kill, but still doesn't reduce the amount of mislynches, and Jailkeeper is still only good for dealing with town power - it kind of prevents the problem of scum being overpowered compared to the town, because the scum's power really only is useful if the town has good power too.

[Hoopla]

Two-Shot Nightless Vanilla

4 Scum
8 Townies

Townies have two lynch to get a scum. They win as soon as they lynch correctly, they lose if they mislynch two times.

Looks quite simple, fast, with a huge insensitive for scum to use group strategy (no bussing!).

It's a good set-up, but it is mostly the same as Polygamist mafia, as far as I can tell.

[Hoopla]

Bait and Switch

Mafia

1x 1-Shot-Janitor
1x Day Role-Cop

Town

1x Tracker
1x Watcher
5x Townies

- 9 Players, Day start
- No mafia Day Talk
- Both scum members receive result of Role-Cop's result during the Day
- Janitor can kill and use Janitor action in same night
- Janitor makes targeted player flip ???, if chosen for the Night Kill
- Janitor can kill and use Janitor action on self or partner

Nine players gives the town enough days to allow three mislynches before they lose. The day-cop is designed to give mafia a head start - a chance to catch a power-role early and open up the option of using their Janitor role Night 1, making a fakeclaim other than vanilla safe. Power roles for town have slightly less influence especially if the Janitor has used it's action, and creates a net of wifom near endgames with what the scum know and don't know. Importantly, a scum Day 1 lynch won't demoralise them, as their individual roles are useable on their own.

[Hoopla]

How about:

The More You Know Mafia

Cop
Doc
Vig

Six Townies

Mafia Cop Enabler (Corrupt Chief of Police)
Mafia Doc Enabler (Corrupt Hospital Administrator)
Mafia Vig Enabler (Corrupt Gun Shop Owner)

The town power roles no longer function once the linked scum dies.

I like the concept, it reminds me of the mechanic Tit for Tat (another open game) uses, where deaths on a particular side trigger a power for the other team. The right play for the vigilante in this set-up is to only shoot once as to not drop the number of lynches the town gets (unless the doctor makes a save). But I don't think people would play this role well or consider that idea, which makes the game very swingy.

A cop claiming Day 1 is also dangerous for scum, unless they can nail the doctor early or decide to counterclaim the cop. I'd consider switching in a Jailkeeper for a Doctor, which is a powered up role but doesn't sync with the other two town powers at all. It's playable as a 12 player set-up, but 13 would be an improvement as it gives the vig two shots (if necessary) and three mislynches, or four mislynches if the vig doesn't kill.

[Hoopla]

Rival Vigilante Mafia

Day Start, 10 players.

MAFIA

(2):

1x 1-Shot-Roleblocker
1x Goon

TOWN

(8):

2x Rival Vigilantes
6x Vanilla Townies

The Rival Vigilantes are just like regular vigs, except if they both try to kill in the same night, both kills will fail. If one vigilante dies, the other cannot shoot. The 1-shot-roleblocker was included to prevent the vigs claiming on D1 and orchestrating a kill together. The threat of one being blocked, one being killed cancels this play. It also possibly gives scum a safe vig claim on D1 if they get in trouble, as the other vigs won't know if it is a vig or scum claim, and claiming theirselves might not be the smartest vig play, as the town getting a vig shot is a real bonus, because it doesn't lower the amount of lynches allowed.

[Hoopla]

Mafia have a >=25% chance of depriving an already shaky Town powerrole its ability on the first Night?

Aside from the possibliity of Town hitting Mafia on D1, this looks too Mafia-skewed.

Also, if I was an R-Vig, what would I do? Come out and say "I'm a vig, whoever the other one is, shut up and kill tonight"?

That limits Town a mere 1-shot vig for power. Scum being able to fake a vig claim rather easily also doesn't sit well. If I inhibit the claim, as does the other, it degenerates to a bizarre guessing game which I couldn't fathom seeing how to solve it.

It looks like a setup just begging to essentially become a 3-mislynches-minimum Mountainous. Trifle too much of a Mafia-tilt is my thought.

Couldn't scum do this too?

If there is a triple vig claim at some point, the town is potentially wasting two mislynches to lynch one scum. It is quite close to mountainous as it is very likely the vigs will get 0 shots or 1 shot. There might be a better way to use this mechanic though, because it is likely only going to create the wifom outguessing game on N1. What if every townie was a Vig, and it required just one person making a shot to succeed? Breaking this down to a plan before night and organising who will shoot is foolish, because scum knowing where the bullet is coming from makes it easy to block.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I stand with that idea, so I pitch a new one instead;

Fruit Vendor Mafia

Mafia

(2)

1x 1-Shot Fruit Vendor
1x Goon

Town

(9)

1-3 Fruit Vendors
6-8 Vanilla Townies

The fruit vendor role is borrowed from SpyreX's Pick Your Power game;

Each night you may target a player. You will give them a delicious piece of fruit of your choice. The fruit does nothing.

Essentially, the Fruit Vendors are glorified named townies, with the ability to confirm themselves if they can get a couple of confirmed acts of fruit-giving. It's difficult to know what the best strategy is for the town in regards to fruit claiming, or target claiming or even a massclaim to work out how many fruit vendors there are. But massclaim seems suboptimal, especially Day 1, as scum then don't necessarily have to play the fruit game and can off the Vendors in successive nights without any of them being confirmed. The one-shot fruit giving is meant to give scum a chance at a fruit vendor claim, but only allowing it on one night means they have to pick their target wisely, or possibly claim a fruit give on a scumbuddy or a corpse for continuity.

I'd probably consider giving scum daytalking for this too.

[Hoopla]

Paranoid Gun Owners

Mafia

(3)

3x Mafia Goons

Town

(9)

6x Vanilla Townies
1x Odd Night PGO
1x Even Night PGO
1x 1-Shot-PGO or Vanilla Townie

I really like the PGO role, but many opposed to it dislike the problem associated with the lack of ways for scum to deal with a confirmed PGO. You either have to sacrifice a 1-for-1 at night, or push super hard to get one lynched. The Even/Odd night PGO's only work every second night, so they are both counterable, and also creates an interesting gameplay for townies trying not to draw the NK, which runs contrary to how you would normally play VT.

The 1-Shot-PGO is a role that has the ability to activate it's power on one night only. The reason I included the coinflip between this role and an extra VT, was to give scum a chance either fakeclaiming, or to potentially frame this role by refusing to NK it. The set-up makes for interesting wifom circles with scum having to be wary about shooting someone acting very town, or in a manner seemingly seeking to draw a kill. It also enables those players who always look obv-town and get NK'd to play aggressively and have a form of psuedo-protection by wifom.

Another complaint the PGO has is that it is very random, which I strongly dispute - this argument is perhaps more applicable to closed games. It's swingy, I grant it that, but good players on the scum side will be able to spot tells, and good PGO's have the ability to act in a way to improve their chances of being NK'ed, and likewise, good townies have an important role to play also. If this was run multiple times, I'd expect specific role tells start to emerge, as optimum play for each role starts to reach an equilibrium.

[Hoopla]

What if even/odd PGO's weren't told whether they were even or odd? That would allow the scum even more room for fakeclaiming (if you feel that would be a good thing.)

I'm not sure whether it's necessary. Friends and Enemies functions quite well as a set-up and that has no scope for scum fakeclaims. I think I (usually) just prefer that aspect as a form of balance, as it makes powerroles less reliable/believable. I don't think pandering to the concept of enabling fakeclaims is necessary for this set-up, as the main quirk is how the PGO's/townies play in order to increase or decrease their chances of drawing the NK. I think it's necessary for the PGO's to know which night they are.

[Hoopla]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

[Hoopla]

I WANT IT.

[Hoopla]

NOT WITH YOU, BECAUSE YOU JUST LIKE PLAYING THE DEVIL'S AVOCADO.

[Hoopla]

SHHH AVOCADO

DON'T MAKE ME EAT YOU

[Hoopla]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

You didn't actually take the time to read the setup, did you? <<

I KIND OF LIKE HALF DID.

[Hoopla]

Yos2 calls it the Lights Out mechanic, I'm not sure if

that's the only game it's been used in (besides /in-vitational 11, which is ongoing).

any other games have used it, besides the Scummies Invitational.

LO1: http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=3161
LO2: http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=4518
SI: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=14713

TDC's Roccisi Winter: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 29&start=0

[Hoopla]

A friends and enemies inspired set-up.

2x Mafia Goons
1x Mafia Tracker

3x Town Role-Cops
7x Vanilla Townies

Day start, Goons and VT's investigate as Vanilla. The substitute for role-cops over masons is obviously a lot less powerful, as any confirmed innocents are going to be one-way knowledge only (and might not happen at all), so you won't have that block of confirmed townies planning together. To compensate for this watering down, I've given the town a 4 mislynch vs. 3 lynch game, and also the chance to catch a scumbag via their investigations, as a result of Tracker must be scum. Whilst the Tracker is alive for scum, it operates as a pseudo-rolecop which balances against the perks I've added for town.

[Hoopla]

1x

Mafia Redirector PGO Enabler

2x

Goons

1x

Innocent Child 1-Shot-PGO

2x

Sane Cops

8x

Vanilla Townies

Innocent Child 1-Shot-PGO is a hybrid role, that is announced as confirmed town as soon as Day 1 starts. This role also has a passive 1-shot-PGO ability at night. If the PGO uses it's shot, it defaults to a standard Innocent Child from then on.

The Mafia Redirector PGO Enabler is also a hybrid role, that has the ability to redirect the cops (if they use their action) to a player of their choice. In the event of the Redirector dying, the PGO ability of the IC-PGO gets disabled meaning it can be nightkilled safely. Cops will not be told if they've been redirected.

~~

The point of this set-up revolves around the dynamic of the PGO interactions - cops need to weigh up the risk of using their action (and when to claim), as using it then makes them vulnerable to be redirected to the PGO. This set-up also rewards scum for role-fishing and clever powerrole hunting. It is a 14 player game to ensure that a successful cop redirect doesn't cost town a mislynch, enabling the game to always have a 4 mislynch/3 lynch mechanic, which reduces some of this swing this sort of set-up inevitably will produce. The disabling aspect of the Redirector is also there to reduce swing, as that role dying means scum aren't screwed by having to deal with a PGO any more.

I've thought about this for a bit - I think it is within the realm of balance, and I've implemented a couple of measures to reduce swing. Cops will have to play very well to avoid the NK, lynch and redirection, if they want to be influential, which is why I've included two. It gives town more chance at a couple of investigations, increases the chances of the PGO being used, and also gives scum a fakeclaim option D1/D2 is none of the cops are outed yet.

[Hoopla]

Cooperate or Die

2x Mafia A Goons
1x Mafia A Role-Cop
2x Mafia B Goons
1x Mafia B Role-Cop

2x Bulletproof Townies
1x Innocent Child 1-Shot-PGO
8x Vanilla Townies

~~

- 17 Players, Day Start
- Mafia teams have invididual Day Talk QT's, as well as a shared QT between

both

teams, where

all

mafia players can post anonymously.
- Bulletproof Townies are immune to night-kills where they get shot by only one scumteam. Two bullets in one night kills them. They are not told if/when they absorb a bullet.
- Innocent Child PGO is declared innocent at the start of the game inthread by the mod. This player gets to choose one night during the game to activate it's PGO ability.
- Role-Cops get a Vanilla result on Goons and VT's
- Only 50% of players required for a No-Lynch

In the event of a Goon/Goon or Goon/BP endgame, the game ends in a tie between those two individual factions, with the non-included faction losing.

[Hoopla]

I like it... though it looks like Cooperate or Tie.
The bulletproof townies are well done.

The IC/PGO could get more than the one shot ability.

It's funny you say that - I was initially trying to work in a tie/die pun. Maybe Tie-Dye will work for a title.

I like games where ties/stalemates are possible results - as it gives faltering teams a secondary goal to attain when a win is looking out of reach. There is something strangely rewarding about scrapping a draw against the odds to break even.

There are a couple of dynamics I like about the game; it enables the possibility for creative scum gambits, and forces them to work together at some stage before one scum team is wiped out. If one scumteam is eliminated before the two Bulletproof townies have died, the remaining scumteam can really only try to scrap a draw, unless they take the risk of making a BP counterclaim. It then creates an option for the town to hold on to a safe draw or go for the win.

Because eliminating one scumteam before the scum find/kill the two BP's is greatly beneficial to the town, it encourages team-specific scumhunting for the town, which is a dynamic not seen or done well very often. It also opens up tells of suspected scum-working-together wagons, because a possible way for scum to combat the lynch during the day is to all work together in choosing a target in the QT.

The Role-Cops are included to give the scum more of a chance of finding the BP's earlier than usual, though they're still going to have to compromise and agree to share their investigation results. They can also potentially find the

other

Role-Cop too.

[Hoopla]

TBH, I'm not sure that the average town would REALIZE that eliminating one team as fast as possible is a good idea.

Even if it doesn't, it's within the realm of possibilities to happen without the town trying for it. Upon eliminating one scumteam, the consequences of it should then dawn on the town if they didn't know beforehand. Besides, I'd expect this to become common knowledge if this set-up was run multiple times. It really only takes one townie to break down the possibilities at the beginning of the game for everyone else to get it.

[Hoopla]

@Gandalf:

There is plenty of opportunity for deeper play and analysis of the possibilities, but the strategy/consequences I talked about are pretty straightforward. There are plenty of people who are competent enough to get it - I refuse to cater for those incapable or unwilling to invest thought into a game.

~~

@Herodotus:

Well yes, that's the reason for the 50% no-lynch rule. To give scum an extra opportunity to eliminate the BP's, by potentially keeping their scumteam intact with 2 or 3 players. A 2 Goon/VT/BP endgame forces a no-lynch --> VT kill --> BP lynch (with 2 goons voting out the last town player), so in this situation or situations where Mafia has 50% of the town and outnumber the BP's, mafia will win.

[Hoopla]

In fact, an intact scumteam should be given the win against 2 BP's and the IC, since they can hypothetically wait through 100d1000 NoLynch/NoKill cycles before shooting the IC (if the IC hasn't already used their PGO ability.)

As for this, I think I'd follow normal rules of a cycle of 2 No-Lynches and 2 No-Kills equals a draw, so scum would have to take a potshot on the IC-PGO on one night or take a draw.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: I didn't know that was a standard rule.
Did you account for the fact that the mafia teams will be trying to avoid cross-killing and that this will make it harder to get rid of them?

It's the most common solution to break the potentially ongoing back-and-forth between no-lynch/no-kill cycles.

I did - it's hard to predict exactly how scumteams will play it. They could in theory discuss and sync their kills at night, but such discussion will leave clues to the other team as to who is likely/not likely mafia. It is always important from a scum-perspective to maintain the dominant upperhand as the other team needs to die at some point, and I think if scum don't have a found BP to target, they won't try and kill the same player which increases the chance of a crosskill. A scum killed at night could sever altruistic tendencies between the two teams. I'd expect if scum strongly thought someone else was on the other team, they'd take a shot at them.

You also have to remember, in order to orchestrate lynches on town players, they need to surrender some of their protection, ie; narrowing the pool of possible places they could be by declaring someone town, and then also by going onto that wagon is a strong clue. If anything, I think scum will be wary of this and their numbers won't give them much influence during the day.

[Hoopla]

Ultimate WIFOM

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child (Mod-confirmed town at the start of the game)
1 Watcher
3 Townies

For what it's worth, I don't think this would play out as you expected, ie; real wifom dilemmas being posed. There are several things that can happen leading into Night 1;

1) If a townie is lynched, and the Watcher is unknown, the mafia's only real option is to take the 1 for 1 trade, killing the IC, whilst losing a Goon on Day 2 from the Watcher. As the alternate is a 1/3 chance at hitting the Watcher, and if mafia miss, Day 2 begins with 2 Goons/IC/Watcher/Townie, which clearly makes having the Watcher claim town's optimal play, in which case mafia must either counterclaim leaving a Goon/Townie and Goon/Watcher vying for the two spots in a 50/50 battle, or mafia must let the Watcher be confirmed, and give the town a 2/3 chance of hitting a Goon, and then a 50/50 in lylo. I think hitting the IC N1, a Goon lynch D2 via a Watcher claim, Watcher kill N2 leaving a lylo of 1 Goon/2 townies is the safest route for mafia to take.

2) If a townie is lynched, and the Watcher is known going into N1, you don't get the wifom dilemma, as mafia's only option here is to kill the Watcher, and the game plays out fairly boringly.

3) If a Goon is lynched D1 then you definitely have some wifom potential, as being watched is an autolose. Mafia's top priority is eliminating the Watcher here, so taking it's best guess at that is the best option, which makes equilibrium for the Watcher's optimal play hard to pinpoint.

Regardless, if your game is depending on a Goon being lynched D1 to generate some wifom aspect to it, which I assume is the central attraction, there are probably better ways to do it. I could see some scumteams going for glory N1 (in the first situation), by trying to hit the Watcher, but I think it is suboptimal. As targeting the IC guarantees you a Goon/Townie/Townie endgame (at worst), and most importantly, you eliminate all possible interactions on Day 2, as the guilty verdict gives no scope for interrogation or connections of any kind. It's like in a vengeful, where scum will always quickhammer to secure a 2:1 endgame with little to no information available - from a sheer probabilities perspective, they get the edge. I think the same would apply here - you only get one Day of information, and then scum get to

choose

which of the two looks towniest for lylo.

[Hoopla]

Lights Mafia

6x

Lights-On Townies

1x

Lights-On/

Off Goon
1x Lights-Off Goon

~~

- Day Start
- Each Townie has a light they can turn off any time during the day. Once they turn it off, it stays off.
- The Lights-Off Goon can only kill Townies who's lights are Off.
- The Lights-On/Off Goon can choose to make a Lights On or Off kill. Whichever she picks, her kill has to match the townie's light.
- Townies can't turn their lights off during twilight or night.

[Hoopla]

The point is town and scum outguessing each other, but Olinea is right that there's a chance the town will be far, far ahead at the end of day 1. What if the mafia started as goons, and assigned the lights-off and lights-on/off roles between them on night 1?

If Mafia is poor enough to have their key player lynched Day 1, they ought to be in a difficult to win situation. In some newbie games and some open set-ups, a correct lynch Day 1 of mafias key powerrole almost certainly nails them. Say in a Newbie Game, if the M. Roleblocker is lynched D1, a cop has the full safety of knowing a Doctor exists to break the game, unless mafia gets lucky N1. In small games, one or two lynches deciding the game is not a damaging mechanic - it's extremely hard to give each side enough room for multiple chances. Having said that, I don't think the situation is so bleak in an On/Off Goon lynch D1;

Scum's "optimal" play N1 is to shoot with the Lights On, as townies thinking in the way Hero suggested could net them a 1:6 nightless game, but if they're wrong, this gives mafia a free kill (remember, townies can't change their light status after a lynch or at night). I expect at least one townie would switch their light off for N1 to compensate for this, and if they do, losing the On/Off Goon D1 still gives the Off Goon some townies to aim for, preventing it from being essentially nightless. The balance of the game was designed so that two mislynches loses the game,

unless

town can outguess scum once at night, as one prevented NK gives them a third mislynch - I think this mechanic makes trying for lights off a viable play for N1, as town are really only wanting one save, unless they're banking on hitting the On/Off Goon to cash in an advantage in a psuedo-nightless game.

[Hoopla]

I like Hoopla's a lot. Maybe not have the Goons flip on death (just mafia, don't know on/off?)

The only reason this would be a good idea is if you want a safety net for the ~12% of games that have an On/Off Goon lynch D1 - but if it's reasonable to believe that some townies would turn their lights off on Day 1, to prevent scum getting a free kill N1 in the 88% of games where the On/Off Goon isn't lynched, then there isn't a safety net needed after all, as some townies are now killable by the Off-Goon, preventing it from being an out-and-out 1:6 Nightless game.

If you're to believe that town's optimal play is to not turn

any

lights off for N1 (say an orchestrated plan decided on D1), then in 88% of games, scum get a free kill on N1. The net gain of a free kill in the bulk of these games more than compensates for the occasional one-off scum blunder, to the point where it would be irrational and suboptimal from a townie perspective not to turn lights off N1 (or be open to possibility of it).

[Hoopla]

The only problem if, what if the Lights-On Townies left their lights on the whole game, while the Lights-On/Off Goon is already dead?
Eventually, the Lights-Off goon is going to be lynched this way.

I think the key mechanic that is being missed here, is that town has to choose their light status for night

prior

to the lynch. They can't sit back, wait and see if they've lynched the On/Off Goon and if they don't, then make a decision. In 88% of games going into N1, the On/Off Goon will exist to kill a Lights-On townie. Do you think it's worth all the townies keeping their lights on for N1 for a 12% chance? Scum then get a free NK if the town is wrong (which then puts them in a potential mylo D2).

[Hoopla]

If it's open, why discuss it by PM?

[Hoopla]

Nomination Mafia

8x Vanilla Townies
3x Mafia Goons

- Nightless
- On odd days, normal lynching mechanics apply
- On even days, a nomination mechanic applies to the lynch. At the start of the Day, Mafia get to select any three players (including themselves) to be available to be lynched. The mod announces who the nominated players are for this day, then everyone (including the three nominated) can only place votes on those three players, until one is lynched.
- Mafia can Daytalk
- Town cannot no-lynch, as such, a plurality lynch rule applies at deadline if town can't decide.

~~

This set-up means mafia need three odd-day mislynches to win (+1 for any time they lose a Goon on an even day). The town was given 2 extra townies (over 3:6 nightless) to compensate for mafia potentially controlling even days. Nominations will be tricky for mafia to decide, though - they can secure a mislynch by nominating three townies, but they could gain a lot of town points by nominating themself, however, that runs the risk of losing a teammate unnecessarily. Scum will be keen to dump wifom on as many conclusions town make from the nomination choices, but there is potentially a lot of information to be gleaned from who scum elect to be lynched.

[Hoopla]

Optimal play: No one votes on even days. Lynch is decided by random.org.

Scum have a 1/3 chance to lynch themselves if they stick themselves in pool, confirm town if they don't.

How do town know how many townies scum have nominated to be lynched? There is no way to confirm town in this game.

[Hoopla]

Optimal play: No one votes on even days. Lynch is decided by random.org.

Scum have a 1/3 chance to lynch themselves if they stick themselves in pool, confirm town if they don't.

How do town know how many townies scum have nominated to be lynched? There is no way to confirm town in this game.

Mechanic change:

Instead of submitting a night kill, the scum submit three names.

This is what it is already, though. Scum don't get a night kill in a Nightless game. Day 1 is lynch 1. When that lynch is done, we go to Day 2 for lynch 2. The nightkill has essentially been traded in for scum picking 3 players in the game, and town choosing who dies. Obviously nominated townies will gain town credit, as scum have less incentive to name themself in the three players, hence why nominating themselves sometimes could be beneficial. Scum can submit 3 townies, 3 scum or any other combination of town/scum to prevent confirmed townies.

[Hoopla]

Friends and enemies isn't nightless though is it?

Neither is this game, once you realize that the 'mechanic' is a cleverly disguised night kill.

As for it not being a NK, well, if the mafia NK was "Submit a list of 3 players, and random.org will kill one" it'd still be a NK. This makes the town kill one rather than random.org, but that's not much of an improvement, overall.

It could be interpretted that way, but realistically, even days act more like a lynch than a nightkill, because towns generate an increased amount of information from it, and have more of a say over who dies than a typical nightkill, especially since scum will sometimes feel compelled to include themself as a possible lynch.

We played a slightly modified ratio of this game on Marathon Day - 2:5 with the same mechanic on even days, and it was pretty successful. There is a fun wifom element to the game; would scum put one/two of themselves up for lynch to look more town later in the game? Or would they put up three townies to buy a guaranteed mislynch? There is a give and take between offering the town more chances to lynch you (putting yourself up for nomination) which helps avoid odd-day lynches, or choosing to avoid even day lynches (by nomming 3 townies), which increases your chance of being lynched on odd days. It's a delicious game of wifom.

[Hoopla]

At 2:5 it works much better because it's very friggin dangerous to

create 3 confirmed town in a 2:5 setup

. You'd commit suicide essentially. If you get a town lynch day 1, then choose 3 town day 2, you literally have a 2/3 chance of hitting scum on day 3 if you assume this to be true. With one dead scum, the other follows pretty fast.

However at 8:3, it's highly optimal to use it like a night kill early on. I think that it'll degenerate into mostly that, especially if the town realizes it's most likely killing a townie, and gets apathetic on even days.

If you do run it, shorten even days to 1 week.

Again, there are no confirmed townies in either game. I don't know why you keep trying to use that as a point.

[Hoopla]

The Bomb is post-restricted from claiming anything but Vanilla Town punishable by modkill.

These sort of restrictions never work. There is too much grey area the mod needs to potentially wade through. What if a player says this;

"I strongly suggest that ABR is the person who is to hammer me"
"I know there aren't any Lovers in the game"
"Okay, since we are massclaiming, if you're a Townie, claim "VT", and if you're the Bomb claim "Vanilla Town"

Which of these is okay?

[Hoopla]

4 Mislynches +1 for each time the town lynches correctly for Mafia Win, 3 Lynches for town win

That's better...

[Hoopla]

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia RoleCop

1 Doctor
1 Jailkeper
1 Hider
4 Townies

What's wrong with this set up?

Day 1 massclaim is the optimal strategy, quite clearly. You have three confirmable town roles out of seven. Scum are either forced to allow three players to be confirmed, or must counterclaim in order to minimise confirmations - this isn't really wise though, as you set up a 50/50 between yourself and that town player, and at best live until Day 2. As such, Doctor/JK/Hider become confirmed town. Doctor protects Jailkeeper who in turn acts like a RB. Hider hides behind the pool of townies/mafia declaring its target in case it dies proving a scum.

[Hoopla]

Synergy Mafia

Mafia

(3)

2x Mafia Goons
1x Mafia Godfather/Bulletproof/2-Shot Roleblocker/Role Cop

Town

(10)

1x Cop/Vigilante
1x Innocent Child/Tracker
1x Bodyguard/Jailkeeper
7x Townies

~~

- Daystart
- Pregame, the Cop/Vig, IC/Tracker, BG/JK, GF/BP/RB/RC have to choose which role they'd like to be.
- Innocent Child (if selected) is announced at the start of D1 by the mod.
- GF has investigation immunity only to the cop.

[Hoopla]

There's no way mafia would ever select to be the bulletproof or the godfather.

I also strongly doubt someone would elect to be innocent child.

Really? I was worrying that picking the IC was far too obvious of a choice over the Tracker. Coupled with a hidden Jailkeeper, an IC is pretty handy.

I think you might have a point in regards to the mafia's option, though.

[Hoopla]

Also, I think the godfather should show up innocent on the GS report if you do choose to do that, or at least add that option in, that way GS can't gather confirmed innocents, especially in the presence of a cop too.

I suppose the point of the set-up isn't to find exact matches between pairings. The strength of a role depends on what the other players pick, hence the title of the game. There might be combinations more favourable than others for town in isolation, which is why I've given mafia a deeper set of options to compensate for whatever town picks. This way, in the event of multiple runs of the set-up, if a pattern, or belief of what is "optimal" for town surfaces, it enables mafia to pick the best matching option, thus forcing town to eventually start changing it up based on what mafia picks, which naturally balances the set-up. It's just a matter of finding the right variables though.

[Hoopla]

This feels fixed-ish.

Mafia

(3)

2x Mafia Goons
1x Vigilante Disabler/2-Shot Roleblocker/Role Cop

Town

(10)

1x Cop/Vigilante
1x Innocent Child/Tracker
1x Bodyguard/2-Shot Jailkeeper
7x Townies

~~

- If the Vig Disabler is chosen by scum, it makes the Vig shoot blanks (essentially the opposite of an Enabler). If the Disabler dies, the vig can start shooting.
- Vig doesn't get told if their shot gets blocked or if they shoot blanks.

[Hoopla]

is it worth it? Is it going to be played that often that you'll get your meta-setup-tells?

Is it going to be a better game then the ones already played?

- Perhaps not. It's more just an assurance it will stay workable if ran multiple times, as it self balances (with the right roles).

- I think we're lacking quality 3-scum Open games, so it has a market. Plus getting the choice pregame to be something you want is fun.

[Hoopla]

Bulletproof IC is just a silly role, that resides in novelty as opposed to interesting, fun or balanced. If you want the aspect of a confirmed town player living deep into the game, having protection roles external to the IC makes more sense than just giving protection straight to the IC. This way scum has a way of dealing with the role (without finicky endgame rules), and there is at least some skill behind the other protection role(s) trying to survive deep into the game.

[Hoopla]

Massclaim D1 obviously breaks that setup, Llama.

[Hoopla]

Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).

[Hoopla]

Can anyone link me to the game where JDodge (I think) broke the setup he suggested?

http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=10486

You're thinking of this.

[Hoopla]

Might be best to add another townie to compensate for a possible D2 mylo if the vig or Hider register an extra town kill at night (after a D1 mislynch).

Extra VT may be right here, I just always dont like going over 13 players in any setup unless there are one or two very specific things I am trying to accomplish in a setup.

Your setup is currently 11 players - I was suggesting a 12th.

[Hoopla]

2x Mafia Goons
1x Reverse Doctor
7x Townies

~~

- Day start
- Reverse Doctor might be a role that already exists under a different/better name, but I can't remember it?
- Essentially, any player who targets it gains protection for that night, rather than the RD choosing who to protect.
- Each townie targets a player at night - if they hit the RD they're protected.
- Mafia and RD don't get a target choice.
- 10p, so one correct protection earns the town an extra mislynch. Rewards players who are good at PR-hunting, scum and town.

[Hoopla]

I see. Healing Water Carrier doesn't seem like a catchy name, though neither is Reverse Doctor, really.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla: What happens if more then one player targets the reverse player?
IE: Is everyone that targets the player safe?

Yep - multiple protections.

[Hoopla]

Surely the reverse Doctor is just another example of a reflexive role?

Maybe that's the terminology I was looking for.

[Hoopla]

Don't the town essentially control the nightkill, though? One townie will claim doctor on day one. MAfia don't know if its real or not, but can't take the chance it isn't because if it is the real doc they can't kill anyone else. Next day, same thing. If the doctor doesn't die in the night, you know the person claiming was mafia, lynch away!

I don't think that's a viable plan - optimal scum play is to not kill the claimer. If it's a townie, then they've just got an awesome deal out of it, because the kill is guaranteed to go through, and it makes the town think the person claiming is mafia, for a nice mislynch opportunity D2.

Worst-case scenario is that they were wrong, and the claimant is the Doctor and they give the town an extra mislynch, but get the Doctor dead N2. But this wouldn't happen often, or would need to happen less often to not make scum's optimal play killing the claimant.

[Hoopla]

Two or Three?

1x Mafia Goon
+ 1x Mafia Goon OR 2x Mafia Lovers

7/8x Townies
1x Doctor

~~

Pregame, one player is chosen to be a Mafia Goon. They then either chose to get a Mafia Goon partner or two Mafia Lovers. The additional mafia member(s) are then chosen randomly.

If two Lovers are chosen, the setup is 3:8. If another Goon is chosen, the setup is 2:9.

[Hoopla]

I think you might be right, but not because of the Doctor itself. In the current incarnation, the Lovers setup allows one less mislynch for town (unless the Doc makes a save), which although there is increased chance of town finding one of their two required lynches, it probably isn't worth one less mislynch. A 12p game enables the same amount of mislynches either way, but makes the Doc save earn an extra lynch in the 2:10 version, as opposed to the 3:9 version, which is probably the setup that needs that benefit more.

I'm not sure which setup I'd pick as the first goon. Having two teammates gives greater control of the lynch, but also increases the chances of my partner being lynched as there is two targets for town to find as opposed to one.

[Hoopla]

Naive millers are pretty meh. 2 in the same setup with two Godfathers is kind of bad - the odds of failure for each investigation role is too high. And when this is the only power town has, there isn't much going for it. I'd expect scum to win.

[Hoopla]

It's not mafia.

[Hoopla]

:3 I was really trying to not have a vigilante.

So if I had 1 more mafia, make them BP and then place a vig do you think it is good?

Do you think it's good? It's becoming less and less like your original desire.

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but sometimes you have to let ideas go. I think we've all had a bunch of seemingly good ideas that look grand on the surface, but don't really work when you look at how it plays.

[Hoopla]

Question: Do all open setups have to have full reveal on death? If not maybe reveal alignment but not specifics (ie, died as fool, died as mafia, died as town).

No-reveal or partial no-reveal games are probably more disliked that Jesters. I think it's getting worse!

[Hoopla]

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

This is borderline broken - I'm not sure what the best strategy is, but it's quite likely the town will fall into a lucky situation where they can PoE scum. A scum lynch confirms between 1-4 players as town, and scum can't kill an entire colour without outing themselves. There's decent chances the last scum could find themself being outnumbered by confirmed other colours.

Worst-case scenario for town (assuming they massclaim) is lynching through an entire colour, hitting scum on D5 in 4:3 lylo, and having scum whittle down the other two colours for you to leave a 50/50 in 3:2 on D6, and a 1/3 on D7 in a 3 player same colour lylo. That's the best scum can hope for - in the majority games, town will hit before their 5th attempt at the first colour, meaning they have a couple of free shots to hit in the next colour (and the next) before a 50/50 on D6 happens.

[Hoopla]

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

I didn't. Mafia obviously has the lowest chances of success, and the Odd-Day Fool is decently better than the Even-Day Fool because of the headstart.

[Hoopla]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Empking how about instead of pushing down the setup for those facts you examine it more closely? Notice 2 fools.

Hoopla, there is nothing more than a mental headstart, but each day the chances of a lynch go up and up and up for fool.

The improved odds of being lynched is inversely proportionate to the odds of surviving until that point, so improved odds on a given day isn't a relevant point, as you need to survive to get there first. The only important point is if the game ends on Day 5, the Odd-Day Fool has had three chances of being lynched to the Even-Day Fool's two. If it end on Day 6, it's 3-3. If it ends on Day 7, it's 4-3 again. The Even-Day Fool is always one step behind.

In a sudden-death penalty shoot-out in soccer, you don't win if you go first and kick a goal. The other person gets a shot to equalise, and you then start a new round. "Going first" is clearly an advantage for the Odd-Day Fool.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla & Junpei: Has any one done the actual

math

on the balance between even and odd day fool (and possibly odd day without D1 fool) yet? This is really not a subject to wild speculation.

Why does math need to be done? It seems perfectly logical that the Odd-Day Fool has a much better chance of winning, because it has more opportunities to be lynched.

[Hoopla]

New breaking strategy for Junpei's setup;

Town elects to no-lynch during the day and use the Vigilante as the lynching mechanic, with the town voting on who the vig should kill. This produces the effect of it being a normal 2:13 setup, which strongly favours the town. Once a fool has been vigged/mafia killed, the town can now lynch on those days they can't lose. There is a chance the vig can die before one of the fools, but it's only a 1/3 chance - less if you include the possibility of a vig and a fool dying on the same night. The chances for the vig dying first outright is low enough to make it a viable strategy in most games, and well worth trying.

[Hoopla]

Then that role ought to claim D1 so the vig avoids it.

[Hoopla]

I wouldn't mind seeing both run if we can settle on a standard and balanced set of roles. Both can be fun setups.

[Hoopla]

Do chosen players flip townie or chosen townie?

So, the mafia's submission is a player that cannot be "chosen"?

[Hoopla]

Unnamed Setup
2 Mafia Goons
1 Cop
1 Bodyguard/Jailkeeper (Mafia chooses)
7 Townies

Bumping this to next page...
Also number of VTs is subject to change based on balance.

It's probably close to balanced (9p over 11p is probably better) but doesn't seem that interesting, imo. Not sure how many scumteams will pick Jailkeeper over Bodyguard.

[Hoopla]

You can't play a Follow the Cop strategy if you don't know if a Bodyguard exists or not.

[Hoopla]

Words With Scum

This is a 14-player game with 3 mafia and 11 townies. Each player starts off vanilla, but can earn powers throughout the game by collecting letters. If you collect a set of letters that matches a role, you can cash those letters in at night to use that power for that night. Every player starts the game with two random letters, and each game day has the opportunity to collect one more.

Spoiler: Letter Combinations

Cop = COP
CPR Doc = CPR
Hider = HID
PGO = PGO
Vig = VIG
White Mage = WHM
Weak Doc = WKD
Watcher = WTC
Bodyguard = BG
Commuter = CM
Doctor = DC
Jailkeeper = JK
Letter Cop = LC
Letter Steal = LS
Neighbourize = NB
Ninja = NJ
Roleblocker = RB
Share (Donate your letters to one player) = SH
Strongman = SM
Tracker = TK
Voyeur = VO

The bag of letters is 92 deep. Once 28 are randomly given out to all the players, the remaining 64 are set up in an 8x8 grid face down like so:

Spoiler: Shitty paint drawing

Every player is allowed one "flip" and one "collect" per game day. For example, a player could

Flip: 54

revealing what letter is underneath it. Players may collect a letter from a flipped tile or a non-flipped tile, which opens up a variety of strategies. Here's an example of what the board could look like after a few flips and collects;

Spoiler: Grid

The game probably needs to be co-modded to minimise timezone advantages and disadvantages that a single mod updating the board could produce. However, towns could play with an honour rule that allows the flipper first bite of that cherry, but whatevs.

Finally;

Spoiler: Letter Distribution

A = 2
B = 5
C = 7
D = 5
E = 2
F = 1
G = 5
H = 5
I = 4
J = 4
K = 5
L = 3
M = 5
N = 4
O = 4
P = 5
Q = 1
R = 4
S = 4
T = 4
U = 1
V = 4
W = 4
X = 1
Y = 1
Z = 2

Game is a daystart with normal lynching mechanics. Flips and collects take place throughout the day. Stockpiling actions to carry over to the next day isn't permitted, but you're more than welcome to hoard your letters at night. The end.

[Hoopla]

That's an... interesting setup.

Wouldn't it be really swingy though? Who gets what powers would be, essentially, random.

Its swinginess is in the realm of setups like Pick Your Power. The game is large enough to handle a little bit of swing, though. Both sides have room for error.

As for the powers, the beginning is a lottery, but the day phase is different - players are allotted a "flip" which shows the letter without it being collected. Theoretically, this player may decline the letter (or be beaten to it). There's also an option of collecting an unflipped letter which is good if you want to keep your letter unknown (flipping and collecting is done inthread). Presuming all players use their flip and collect on each day, players collecting unflipped tiles will produce a bunch of upturned tiles (if they use their flip) which enables choice.

There are a few non-usable letters included to encourage players to flip before they collect.

[Hoopla]

I think it's a great mechanic idea, but more suited to a Theme Game queue. Open games are great for simplicity yet interestingness - this is interesting, but changes the game of Mafia completely.

I agree - it's probably not suited to be run in Central Park, but this is an open setup and I wanna discuss it.

[Hoopla]

Tic-Tac-Toe Mafia

Mafia

(4)

2 "X" Goons
2 "O" Goons

Town

(9)

4-5 "X" Townies
4-5 "O" Townies

~~

- 13 players, Daystart
- Special Mechanic: if three players in a row die (of any alignment) of the same letter the town makes a tic-tac-toe and wins.
- Mafia have a factional Governor ability where any lynch on a townie can be prevented - however, the mafia need to sub one of their own players in place of that townie. This ability has to be used before the townie flips.
- Mafia have daytalk
- Mafia can choose to no-kill
- 4 "X" Townies and 4 "O" Townies - the 9th townie's letter is randomised (50/50)
- Town win if they eliminate all the scum or make a tic-tac-toe

[Hoopla]

Interesting... Is the governor ability x-shot?

I'd like to see this run. I feel like there might be kinks to work out but I don't see them yet. My initial thought was town-sided, but after thinking about, I'm not sure.

One thing: would town's optimal strategy be to claim letters from the start? (Probably not.) Alternatively, would this game be broken by townies one at a time sacrificing themselves if they have the right letter?

The Governor ability is unlimited to prevent town massclaiming or townies sacrificing themself. Remember, the nightkill counts in the sequence of kills, so it won't be every day that the town has a chance to win with a correct lynch. Theoretically, if the town is on 2-in-a-row and needs an X lynch to win, an X townie could volunteer to be lynched to force a scum lynch that day (or be an O bluffing and force scum to gamble on not Governing). If scum Governs, they have a prob-X townie they can use to break O sequences at night.

I think there might be a couple of things I'm not fully taking into consideration, but I can't see anything too damaging to the setup yet.

[Hoopla]

The way mafia normally win - when they have a majority. In this instance, they need three mislynches before being eliminated or tic-tac-toe'd.

[Hoopla]

I fear it's slightly town-sided. One thing that does need to be fixed, is giving Mafia the ability to sub one of their players in on ANY lynch, not just townies. As a mafia player subbed in confirms that player as town and forces scum's NK. This hopefully gives scum a bit more control.

[Hoopla]

Scum can let townies die if they're only on 1-in-a-row or want to take a risk on 2-in-a-row. It's also dangerous for scum to get down to one scum, because if they do and there's an opening for a lynch to make 3-in-a-row, the right letter can be sacrificed without scum being able to prevent it.

[Hoopla]

To rectify the severe lack of small 7p setups;

Doubles Mafia

2x Mafia Goons
1x Tracker
1x Roleblocker
3x Townies

~~

- Daystart
- On Night 1 only, both PR's can use their action on two different players.
- If the Roleblocker targets the Tracker, both tracks are blocked.
- If the Tracker targets the Roleblocker, it sees the Roleblocker going two places (if used twice)
- Scum can no kill if they wish.

[Hoopla]

Don't know.

[Hoopla]

That's mostly inconsequential. If scum gets lynched D1, no-killing N1 is optimal, but in the event of a town lynch, killing N1 is probably optimal. Even if they get tracked, they can force a 50/50 in lylo the next day.

[Hoopla]

Hmm. Yeah, I suppose this setup isn't so good.

[Hoopla]

New idea.

2x Mafia Goons
2x Vengeful Townies
4x Vanilla Townies

~~

- Daystart
- Vengeful Townies can only make a kill upon being lynched.

[Hoopla]

I'd recommend just those on their wagon, but it's a finer point.

[Hoopla]

4x Mafia Goons
11x Modified Vigs

~~

- Daystart
- Each night, every town player must submit a target to be vig-killed
- Scum select which town vigs' shots succeed.
- Scum still have a nightkill.
- Scum has various numbered cards; 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. These numbers correlate with how many shots that must succeed in a night. Each card can only be used once, in any order.
- Endgame rules: Day beginning with 4 Goons/4 Townies, 3 Goons/3 Townies, 2 Goons/2 Townies and 1 Goon/1 Townie doesn't end the game

unless

scum still has their 0 card. Scum win when day starts with scum outnumbering the townies.
- 50% of players required to no-lynch.

[Hoopla]

I like the idea of shrinking it too, but it's going to take a lot more work. Smaller games are so fickle with balance.

[Hoopla]

Here is what I would do:

Roll 5 numbers (no duplicates);

1-10 - T
11-14 - I (Investigation)
15-17 - P (Protection)
18-19 - M (Mason)
20 - K (Killing)

I - Tracker
II - Cop
III - Cop, Tracker
IIII - Cop, Cop

P - Doctor
PP - Jailkeeper
PPP - Doctor, Jailkeeper

M - Innocent Child (PM version)
MM - Mason pair

K - 2-Shot Vig

TTTTT - 2 Mafia Lovers
TTTT - 2 Goons
TTT - 2 Goons
TT - 1 Goon, 1 Godfather OR 1-shot RB
T - 1 Goon, 1 Godfather OR 1-shot RB
0T's - 1 Goon, 1 Godfather OR 1-shot RB

~~

You can't really afford to have 2:7 mountainous as a possible option for this, and you can't really afford to have an SK in a game so small, so 2:7 with Lovers seems like a good solution - it's hard on scum, but they have perfect knowledge of the setup and can fakeclaim roles if need be. The hardest win for town is in the TTTT section as they only get one PR, but I've given them full roles to make the most of setups with low amounts of PR's.

Scum don't have full information on a setup except for mountainous, which makes selecting a GF or RB harder and also doesn't confirm which setup the town is in if they lynch one of them. 0T's might seem harsh for scum, but I expect with ~4 PR's, they'd probably end up tripping over themselves or be worried that scum is fakeclaiming one of them.

[Hoopla]

Original Roll String: 5d20

5 20-Sided Dice: (11, 2, 5, 7, 19) = 44

[Hoopla]

Not bad.

[Hoopla]

Scum Lovers is fine. How many 2:7 games end without a single scum dying?

[Hoopla]

No son, that is wrong, it's just not the way things are done.

I believe that that is a direct quote from every movie about an amazing person with a great idea (me or BBmolla) who has to fight against the harsh and brutally portrayed society (you) for acceptance.

To be honest, I'm still yet to see an open setup containing a Jester that is balanced and fun. Paris Mafia is the most popular open setup using the role, and it still has balance problems and is susceptible to pseudo-breaking strategies. It's valid commentary to suggest that Jester setups don't work, because it's so rare they actually do going by our track record so far.

[Hoopla]

More experienced moderators than you have attempted to make balanced Jester setups to no avail - why do you think your knowledge of setup balance and game design is sufficient enough to create one? I probably wouldn't trust my ability to make one. Jesters are one of the few roles that completely obliterate the way town plays the game - it's difficult to use traditional mafia games without a Jester as a yardstick for balance, much in the same way you wouldn't rate EV values of traditional mafia games in the same way as in a Nightless game. The game is played too different to make many viable comparisons.

Paris is a popular setup - it fills quickly and players tend to like it. It's the best idea for use of Jester I've seen (even though I personally wouldn't play in it), but it still has problems. Normal open setups fill quicker or slower than Paris - we don't rerun setups that don't fill or aren't popular.

[Hoopla]

Fun isn't the key issue with your attempts at a Jester setup, Junpei. The popularity of a setup is typically determined during it's creation, when it signs up, when it's played and postgame. I'm happy to put Jester setups into circulation, but they need to be balanced (or have a chance of being balanced), and from what I've seen of your attempts at a Jester setup so far, you're a long way off.

[Hoopla]

Slots Mafia

People seem to like the variable open setups with a massive amount of possible options. So here is one.

3x Mafia Goons
10x Vanilla Townies

~ There are 7 slots to choose from, each containing a variety of roles. Many of the categories have a high proportion of Vanilla roles, but scattered across them are powerroles sorted by category. Pregame, each player (mafia and townies alike) gets to choose a slot to draw a role from. They will then be given a random role from that slot.

Spoiler: The slots

Slot 1: Protection

Bodyguard
Doctor
1-Shot Jailkeeper
1-Shot Jailkeeper
1-Shot Doctor
1-Shot Self Doctor
7x Vanilla

Slot 2: Blocking

Jailkeeper
Roleblocker
Roleblocker
Rolestopper
9x Vanilla

Slot 3: Investigation 1

1-Shot Role Cop
1-Shot Role Cop
1-Shot Slot Cop (determines which slot a player chose from)
1-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Cop
1-Shot Cop
Godfatherizer (If mafia selects this role, they become a Godfather. If town selects this role, they are given a VT role PM and a random mafia player becomes a Godfather)
7x Vanilla

Slot 4: Investigation 2

Cop
Watcher
Tracker
Tracker
Ninjarizer (If mafia choose this role they become a Ninja. If town selects this role, they are given a VT role PM and a random mafia player becomes a 1-shot Ninja)
9x Vanilla

Slot 5: Killing 1

1-Shot Vig
1-Shot Vig
Blank 1-Shot Vig (Given a 1-shot Vig role PM, but shoots a blank)
2-Shot Vig
Voteless (has no vote for the game. Doesn't affect votes required for a lynch)
8x Vanilla

Slot 6: Killing 2

1-Shot PGO (player's choice which night to enable role)
Vengeful
CPR Doctor
Suicidal (Suicides on Night 1)
9x Vanilla

Slot 7: Miscellaneous

1-Shot Redirector
Voyeur
Miller
Neighbourizer
1-Shot Janitor
Universal Backup
7x Vanilla

Obviously the setup is very swingy, but extreme scenarios should be relatively rare. Each slot was designed to give slightly similar benefit to mafia and town and more potential risk for stronger possible roles, ie; the stronger the role you desire, the more chance there is of being Vanilla or something negative.

[Hoopla]

You don't.

[Hoopla]

Suicidal player is informed they're suicidal?

Looks like a fun set-up.

Yeah, they're told they die N1.

[Hoopla]

Ah, right. No double-ups. So, if all 13 players picked the protection category. The 13 roles in the game would be those 13 roles listed in that category. If 12 players pick the Protection category, then 12 random roles from that category are selected and distributed amongst the 12 players who picked it. If someone picked the Investigative 1 list, they get a random role from the Investigation 1 list.

- No notification on redirection. Ideally mods should phrase investigation results in the form of "your target went nowhere", "your target is town" etc.
- A Vengeful can kill anyone on its final lynch wagon for that day.
- A town Janitor can't do much. It can use its action if it wants, but it shouldn't. This is the night Janitor role, so the Janitor picks a player at night, and if they are successfully killed, they will flip as ????? Obviously only scum should use this role.

[Hoopla]

Maybe scrap it altogether. Janitors suck. I don't know what I was thinking.

[Hoopla]

2x Mafia Goons
1x 1-Shot Town Vig
1x 1-Shot Town Twilight "Loverizer"
3x Vanilla Townies

~~

- Daystart
- "Loverizer" chooses two people just after a lynch to turn into Lovers. Those two players then get a quicktopic opened up for them, where they can talk as much as they want. Alignments and roles aren't revealed by the mod in the QT. If any of these two players are lynched/killed from then on, the other dies simultaneously.
- Loverizer has a designated 24-hour window post-lynches to use its action. This is to ensure Lover pairs know they're Lovers before kills get made. This is to ensure mafia don't unwittingly shoot themself at night if they get loverized with the townie they kill. The reason it isn't a day action, is because optimal play is to just loverize the two scummiest players d1 and lynch them both, which is boring.
- Mafia/Town lover pair endgame = draw.
- 50% of players required to no-lynch

[Hoopla]

I don't know. Presume the town mislynches Day 1. If you can't hit one scum from two 2/5 shots, then you probably shouldn't be playing mafia. If you do hit one scum, then the town only needs to kill the Goon to secure a draw at the very least. It's also a possible strategy for town to vote on who gets loverized.

[Hoopla]

Even in the best-case scenario for scum you posted, if the vig shoots N1 and hits scum, the town gets a 2:1 lylo. The town isn't going to mislynch D1, Loverize two townies and miss with the vig shot all in succession very often. It seems like a 1/5 sort of probability for all those to come true, which is fine by me - the town had enough chances. They missed four times.

[Hoopla]

It seems like its best play to massclaim to me.

(If scum counterclaim vig then you can allow the vig to vig the other one. If scum counterclaim loverizer then you let the loverizer loverize their counterclaimee and a scaoegoat and the vig vigs the scape goat. With no counterclaim I see around a 0.6 EV.)

Yeah, I think massclaim probably is optimal. It might be okay as a larger game, but I kind of wanted to make a 7p game.

[Hoopla]

Only if it gets okay'd for balance and stuff.

Junpei is right. The system I'm starting to implement is that first-time mods have to run something off the catalogue. Experienced mods (one successfully modded game) can then design a game or pick whatever they want from the catalogue.

[Hoopla]

I wouldn't want to draw zero doctors...

[Hoopla]

The Drive

2x Mafia Goons
1x Innocent Child (revealed at the start of D1)
6x Townies

~~

- During the day, the town, by popular vote (and before the lynch), decide one player to be given a Bus Drive action for the upcoming night.
- The nominee cannot be killed that night
- The Innocent Child can't be given the action (kids are too young to drive)
- The nominee cannot self-bus

[Hoopla]

If anything, the extra townie makes it more difficult for town. Town still gets the same amount of lynches to mislynches, but the extra townie now slightly increases the town:scum ratio, meaning scum have a little more space to hide in.

[Hoopla]

It's obviously better for town than 11:2, but 14:2 probably isn't as good as 13:2. It kind of works like that.

It'd probably be boring playing in a game that large when there's such a low ratio of scum, though.

[Hoopla]

So mountainous is a lost cause.

Because you're pitting two teams against each in an asymmetrical fashion, balance is always going to be fluid. There will sometimes be communities or periods in time where town play is a lot more efficient than random - and even possibilities of it being worse than random.

For example, I'd expect 2:7 mountainous to be relatively balanced face-to-face, because it is much harder to eliminate your tells as scum when someone is staring into your soul. Towns (on the whole) can't generate information of that caliber online, so winrates suffer. However, I'd expect an average town here to do better than an average town on a less focused mafia site. It's reasonable to believe that one day, town play could evolve to the point where it's harder for scum, but right now, mountainous seems like a waste of time from a balance and maybe even a fun perspective.

We have a pretty good setup that is close to mountainous; White Flag.

[Hoopla]

The Experiment

Premise: A genius scientist goes mad when he discovers his experiments on his unwitting fellow townspeople have gone awry. His only hope is to kill them all.

Base Setup:

9x

Townies

3x

Mafia Goons

1x

Serial Killer

Setup Determination:

Pregame, the Serial Killer is the lone decider of the setup. He starts out without investigation immunity, without nightkill immunity and doesn't even have the ability to kill. However, the more power he gives to the town and mafia, the more perks he gets for himself.

The Serial Killer has 10 points to spend and may choose a maximum of 5 different articles across all four banks. If he chooses a concentration of articles from a specific bank, he will be rewarded with perks.

Bank 1:

(1)

Innocent Child

(PM version)
(1)

Even Night Cop

(2)

Odd Night Cop

(2)

1-Shot Cop

(3)

Cop

,

Godfather

(3)

Cop

,

Roleblocker

(3) 2x

Town Masons

(4)

FBI Agent

(gets guilty only on SK)
(4)

Cop

,

Even Night Cop

,

Roleblocker

(4)

Cop

,

Odd Night Cop

,

Godfather

2 points - SK receives 1-Shot Commute (cannot kill and commute on same night)
3 points - SK receives 1-Shot Bulletproof
5 points - SK receives Unlimited Bulletproof

Bank 2:

(1)

Even Night Watcher

(1)

Odd Night Tracker

(1)

1-Shot Vig

(2)

Tracker

(2)

Watcher

(2)

Roleblocker

(2)

Vigilante

(3)

Vigilante

,

Vengeful Goon

(3)

Jailkeeper

,

Roleblocker

(4)

Watcher

,

Tracker

,

Roleblocker

2 points - SK receives 1-Shot Kill
3 points - SK receives 2-Shot Kill
5 points - SK receives Unlimited Kills

Bank 3:

(1)

Doctor

(1)

2-Shot Jailkeeper

(2)

1-Shot Vig

(2)

Roleblocker

(2)

Vengeful Townie

(3)

Jailkeeper

(3)

Vigilante

(4)

Jailkeeper

,

Vengeful Goon

(4)

Vigilante

,

Roleblocker

2 points - SK receives Ninja/Strongman Ability
3 points - SK receives Cop Immunity
4 points - SK receives Cop Immunity AND Ninja/Strongman Ability

Bank 4:

(1)

Miller

(1)

PGO

(1)

Bus Driver

(1)

Blank 1-Shot Vig

(1)

Blank Vigilante

(1)

Cop Enabler

(1)

Cop Enabler

(1)

PGO

(1)

Bus Driver

(3) Loverize (two players of SK's choice become Lovers - these players can still draw other PR's)
(3)

Death Miller

SK receives no perks for selecting these articles.

[Hoopla]

hmm seems like Sk is really hard to win.

What's new?

edit: can townies draw 2 prs?

Nope. Although a townie that is Loverized can be a PR, as the SK is choosing which two players are lovers.

[Hoopla]

Question : what are cop enablers.

While the Cop Enabler is alive, Cop powers are active, but if the Cop Enabler dies, Cop powers no longer work.

chances of winning if
- he spends no points at all --> 1:3:9 mountainous , but Sk cant shot

Extremely low - tantamount to suicide.

Which bank do you think Sk should spend points at

I don't know. I'm hoping to create a setup that allows for a variety of different tactics for the SK. If you spend all your points on getting Unlimited kills/Unlimited BP, you expose yourself to Cops/Trackers etc, so I think that isn't a reasonable option.

Personally, I think two kills could be enough if you pick roles to keep you safe at night, or lots of killing roles to speed the game up. Or...

Cop

,

Roleblocker

Tracker

Vigilante

PGO

PGO

SK --> 1-Shot BP, 1-Shot Kill, Cop Immunity

...could be fun.

[Hoopla]

Lots of cops, 3 NKs and no worry of death. And a shot to finish off any certain scenarios. Seems like the best option to me.

Not a bad option. I wasn't expecting to get the ratios perfect the first time around - so I expect to change things around to minimise any glaringly advantageous selections. Perhaps the setup is trying to do too much and I need to reduce the variables.

[Hoopla]

Reverse Vengeful

2 Mafia Goons
5 VTs

Nightless.
Special mechanic: When the first Goon gets lynched, they get a vengekill.
Mafia wins if they make up at least half of the players.

EV is 35% town, 65% mafia, which seems reasonably balanced considering mafia can't reliably take out strong players.

This plays very similarly to No Lynching Town.

[Hoopla]

A simplified (and hopefully more balanced) version of The Experiment.

9x Townies, 3x Goons, 1x SK.

The SK is given seven points to spend from any of the four coloured banks. Any time he buys a power for the town, he gets that amount of coloured tokens to spend in his perks giftshop. Black coloured tokens are like wild cards and can be substituted for any colour. Some of the SK's powers that are bought give mafia a power too.

SK's giftshop:

(

1

) 1-Shot Kill
(

1

) 1-Shot Kill
(

1

) 1-Shot Kill
(

1

) Even Night Cop Immunity,

Roleblocker

(

1

,

1

) Odd Night Cop Immunity,

Godfather

(

1

,

1

) 1-Shot Ninja/Strongman Kill
(

1

,

1

) 1-Shot Commute
(

1

,

1

) 1-Shot Commute
(

2

,

1

) 1-Shot Day-Kill
(

2

,

1

) 1-Shot Bulletproof,

Godfather

(

2

,

1

) 1-Shot Bulletproof,

Roleblocker

Blue Bank:

(1) 1-Shot Cop
(2) 1-Shot Vig
(2) Even Night Cop
(3) Cop

Pink Bank:

(1) Roleblocker
(1) Doctor
(2) Jailkeeper
(2) 1-Shot Vig

Green Bank:

(1) Tracker
(2) Watcher
(3) Cop

Black Bank:

(1) Innocent Child
(2) 2x Masons
(3) FBI Agent

[Hoopla]

Mafia have a factional kill. Each article can only be purchased once by the SK.

[Hoopla]

Cop Immunity doesn't work against the FBI Agent. The Ninja/Strongman is a combination.

[Hoopla]

So, the Nexus doesn't know its role? You've just made an annoying, random role even more annoying and random.

[Hoopla]

I guess so. A Nexus can still be NK'ed, though, so the setup is essentially a Doc and a Cop with occasionally wrong results. A Naive Miller is another role that would create a similar environment.

[Hoopla]

The classic interpretation of the role is that it can't be NK'ed - I guess since you aren't telling the player they're the Nexus, it could work.

[Hoopla]

though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced.

Where did you get this idea..?

[Hoopla]

Is there a set up where two scums, while knowing who each other is, cannot communicate at all?

Edit: and scums need to PM the mod with the same person to NK for NK to succeed?

An idea from Near that could make for an interesting setup. 2:5 or 2:6 is probably the correct ratio for the setup, I think.

2:5 is probably too low, because scum really only need a successful kill N1 (33% chance, although I think there will usually be an obvious choice for scum to kill) to put them in lylo the next day.

2:6 has the benefit of giving the town an extra mislynch if scum miss at night once, but if scum is lynched D1 or D2 (after a successful N1), the town is worse off starting with the extra townie. It could even be a plausible play for a scum to deliberately get lynched D1, as they only have to avoid two mislynches now with a guaranteed NK - as opposed to potentially giving the town another mislynch by missing an NK.

[Hoopla]

Borrowing the mechanic from Masons and Mafia...

3x Mafia Goons
1x Cop
1x Gunsmith
1x Doctor
1x Roleblocker
1x Vigilante
1x Vengeful
1x Miller (Guilty to Cop and Gunsmith)
1x Encryptor (Enables scum daytalk)
1x Vanilla Townie

~~

- Daystart
- Any time during the day (as many times as they want), an individual scum member can send in a daykill on a player if they can name their role.
- If the scum guesses wrong, it suicides.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, wrt that Near-inspired setup, would it help to cause Mafia to lose their NK for one night after a member is lynched? As in, if a Goon gets lynched, scum can't kill the following night.

That could work. It probably makes 2:6 the better ratio if this was the case.

[Hoopla]

I think I would join asap to get Cop Immunity. Double NK's are strong, but less so when there is a risk you'll hit the other scum or the Cop flukes a guilty on you. It might be better for balance if you gave each Goon a 1-shot BP ability that only works while single.

[Hoopla]

Losing the BP upon join wouldn't mean anything, anyway.

True.

[Hoopla]

I think if you were to alter it, one more VT wouldn't change the gameplay too much - it might even be an improvement, as town has a slightly higher chance of getting an additional day, which makes lynching scum and earning flips more meaningful.

[Hoopla]

RAF Squares

3x Mafia Goons
9x Townies

Mafia have daytalk.

~~

Using the Ready, Aim, Fire mechanic to determine nightkills, each player is situated on a 3x3 grid in one of the squares. Pregame, each player PM's the mod which square they'd like to start in. Throughout the day, each player can move up, down, left or right (not diagonal) one square if they wish, and after a lynch has taken place, the night phase begins, which is essentially an asymmetrical RAF shootout. Every player must choose to shoot a player in an adjacent (or same) square, shoot the sky, or shoot themself.

Normal RAF resolution applies, where any player who shoots someone suiciding, will suicide themself, and any player who suicides but is shot by someone else survives. This should be an interesting mechanic, with players in densely populated areas of the board being up against many people, while a player in a corner maybe only being against a couple. An informed minority colluding to orchestrate results in an RAF game would also be interesting to watch.

[Hoopla]

Dying Wish: Two Targets

3x Mafia Goons
6x Townies
1x 1 Shot Cop
1x 1 Shot CPR Doctor
1x 1 Shot Backup

Lynches occur normally.
On being lynched, the lynched player selects 2 targets. These are the only two targets that may be chosen for night actions (including the mafia NK).
Backup only gains the ability of a dead town PR if they haven't used it.

Sound good?

I like the idea on the surface, but it can be partially gamed by town massclaiming D1 - scum can now not nightkill any confirmed town player unless a scum is lynched during the day, which is a trade-off town should be happy making. Deliberately lynching a townie D1 to get either an investigation N1 or two nightkills on two unconfirmed players while leaving the three PR's alive is probably the best way to set the town up on D2.

[Hoopla]

With Open 425 complete, Carbon-14 town is 4-7, so not wildly unbalanced.

It's barely (read: not) statistically significant enough to make a ruling on balance - so I don't see the point of messing with the elegance of the setup.

[Hoopla]

I agree, I'd probably opt for random voting given such a high percentage of players are trying to manipulate you. You essentially need every townie to agree on one player to lynch scum (without bussing).

[Hoopla]

Nice review. I agree it's a good setup.

[Hoopla]

(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)

I don't agree.

[Hoopla]

Noted.

[Hoopla]

Has anyone suggested something like a mini Masons and Mafia to be run in the Micro queue?
I was thinking along the lines of 2 Masons, 2 Goons and 3 Vanilla Townies, same mechanics of the larger version. Would this work?

Could work - might even be a better version of that setup, given four player scumteams usually feature at least member gambling at the start of D1 for fun - you can't exactly do that when you're in a 2p scumteam.

[Hoopla]

I made a modified version of PYP X/Y with some odd roles in it to make the game more interesting, though since each role can go to either alignment it is about the same balance wise except for one or 2 things... Here is a link to the setup (i made it as a wiki page) Venrob's PYP X/Y

i don't think it improves the original. it's more overall power and more killing roles - this will mostly just increase swing.

[Hoopla]

there's no point including a secondary number in the draft as it's optimal to always select 1.

i still don't see how making an already role-heavy game more chaotic is more fun, but i am a simple person.

[Hoopla]

Hmmm true... Except in 3-way or more ties. Shouls 2 people select 1 as secondary and another select 2, the person that selects 2 is ahead as the 1's are tied. That's the main purpose of it- would've helped in Open 472.

If you're planning to select any number other than 1 as your secondary number, so you can prosper in three-way ties, then you're doing it wrong. Old PYP games (before it became a catalogued open game) featured drafts with a secondary number, and it was dropped for that reason - it has no real purpose.

More roles means more chaos, which can actually negate strategy and thinking, and minimises the value of the day phase. I think it's one of those ideas that sounds fun on paper, but wouldn't play out to your expectations.

[Hoopla]

If that's the case then what the hell is the point of even picking a first number. If ties don't affect the outcome of the secondary numbers, then they don't affect the first either, and then the entire draft system is pretty much pointless.

I don't think you understand.

[Hoopla]

i don't know. for most setups, nightstarts aren't very effective

[Hoopla]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

i agree. it's already been tweaked twice and was never really a good setup to begin with. trying to fine-tune it again for the sake of fine-tuning is a waste of time. most of the time the correct solution for a failing setup is scrapping the idea and starting again, rather than trying to shoehorn inelegant mechanics or roles into the design. it gets to a point where it no longer looks like the original game.

[Hoopla]

A lot of rules. But I would like to see a game where players have to convince others that they are scum for a change. Is there perhaps one already?

This one is probably imbalance, though. Advantage to scum, I think.

am i being dumb or does a townie lynch d1 mean an autoloss for town? i feel like i'm missing the point of the setup.

[Hoopla]

oh, i see what's going on.

Town-lynch day 1 results in: 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 1 Townie left in D2. (Since obviously Goon is not going to kill Traitor N1)

why not kill the traitor N1 though? Goon/townie/townie endgame is a 66/33 chance of winning for the goon, but a goon/traitor/townie endgame is a 50/50 chance for the goon, as he now has to convince the traitor he is scum and not the townie.

[Hoopla]

the traitor should just self-vote in lylo

my understanding of the rules is that a 1-1 endgame with a goon/townie would result in a tie, as neither team has achieved their win condition and can't improve upon the situation. so, the traitor doesn't really gain anything by self-voting in lylo. the point still stands that the goon is better placed to not take the traitor into lylo anyway.

[Hoopla]

that's not a bad point, but i don't think people are going to be much higher than random in a two day game. like, i agree the difference between the two endgames probably isn't as jarring as 66% and 50%, but i think you'd be silly not to take the goon/town/town endgame as scum.

although, i guess it could create some interesting wifom in lylo about what sort of player would kill/not kill the traitor.

[Hoopla]

not all 1-1's are a tie. the town's wincon is when the goon is dead.

goon/townie is a tie.
traitor/townie is a town win.

[Hoopla]

actually, i get what you're saying now.

[Hoopla]

Naughts and Crosses Mafia

2x Mafia
7x Townies

- Each player is distributed into their own square on a naughts and crosses grid. The positions of each player is chosen by the mafia pregame.
- Whichever square is lynched D1 is removed from the game, and any square touching that one receives immunity from the NK for the following phase.
- Mafia get their NK as usual (so long as they don't target an immune square), and whichever square they NK, the next day, any square touching that one receives immunity to the lynch. This pattern continues throughout the game, except for in a 3P lylo where anyone can be lynched.
- Mafia can daytalk

There are some starting mafia positions that are more beneficial than others, like picking two sides (that aren't opposite each other) will increase the odds of setting up a kill on N2 that will give scum double immunity on a D3 2:3 lylo. But town can also lynch in a way to reduce the possibility of scum getting immunity (or double immunity) at key phases. So, choosing who to lynch might not just be the scummiest player during the day -- there will be opportunities for utility lynching players who offer better NK-protection that night and/or lynching squares that reduce possibilities of scum NK'ing in a way to get a double-immunity the next Day. Then there's also the outguessing of which players as scum would put themselves in a popular square or an ignored one.

[Hoopla]

I like the idea, but it's super scumsided.

I suppose so. I was thinking the mechanic could be used in a pro-town way, such as securing a lynch on a scummy-ish player while simultaneously protecting an obv-town/strong town player from the NK, but I'm probably overestimating the average town-skill that will be present in the game. I think the reason towns traditionally do so poorly in mountainous games is that scum has free reign to pick off the best/towniest players early in the game with no consequence/trade-off. There are consequences for their actions in this game and as such information will be given to the town from each flip.

[Hoopla]

Bingo Mafia

3x

Mafia Goons

12x

Townies

~~

- There is a 5x5 grid with columns A-E, rows 1-5
- Pregame, each player privately selects which square they wish to start in.
- At the start of each day, there is a turn-based moving option for each player.
- Every player can move up, down, left or right.
- After the moving phase is finished, the day officially starts and the town votes to lynch an entire row or a column by way of majority. Every person in the nominated column/row is lynched.
- At night, the mafia selects a single square to NK. Every player in that square is night-killed.
- The moving order at the start of each day is selected by the mafia the night before.
- Movements are limited to 5 for each player for the game, which players can use all at once, not at all, or in any amount on their turn. Once their turn has passed, they are locked into that square until the next movement phase.
- Available moves left will be displayed next to player names.
- There is no limit to how many people can be in one square at once.
- Mafia have daytalk

Not 100% sure on what town:scum ratio I should be using for this game. I felt there needed to be a lot of town to offset potential multi-kill days and nights (although town should be aiming to prevent multi-NK's) and the scum selected movement order. I like scum selecting the order, as the late movers each phase will have a lot of control over what row/lynch options will be considered each day phase, which garnishes the game deliciously with lots of scum-wifom about their order choices (and board positioning overall).

In a good town it may be difficult to hide as scum once a scumflip has been revealed as there is lots of info to rule out likely scumpartners, so scum may have to bus creatively or take risks in board positioning if the town is using that in their scumhunting. I think the mechanic is strong enough and there'll be enough info around to prevent the need for powerroles. Just not sure about the ratio, really...