Blitz 2: The Stars My Destination Mafia- GAME OVER!

[talah]

/confirm

[talah]

I'm not opposed to lynching Firebringer, I have a soft spot for wagons and caps-posting.
However given that he's L-2 and ika appears to be expressing intent to lolhammer I'd like the day to go on a bit longer.

VOTE: spiffeh

Also molla calm down kthx<3

Why vote away from the wagon just as it's starting to build?
(3 votes at that time)

I agree with Molla: Firebringer is scum.

What's the point of this post?


---
F everyone's I - I'm in Aussie and it's 6.50am here. My main posting times are going to be about 11-12 hours from now aside from weekends. Will keep an eye out while at work.

[talah]

Well that Firebringer wagon evaporated pretty quickly.

Given that I don't like the ABR / ika options and Firebringer might be town given the main drivers are no longer voting him, I'm happy with this in principle and for a couple of other reasons.
VOTE: Syryana

---

@Syr

Why did you unvote FB when he was at L-2? There was no risk there as long as nobody else voted him. Your unvote was pointless imo.

---

@Molla

While I appreciate your abrasiveness and it comes across as scumhunting, I'm a bit concerned that you've come to independent sorta-conculsions that both FB and Nosferatu are town after having proposed them as scum/scum (83), then scum/sk (146) and now town/town (183)?
It has a feeling of knowing that both are town and having trouble suspending your own disbelief and remaining convincing when confronted directly by your targets.
Also you're happy with ika, Ranger and Kid A now, who seem like pretty easy targets? I'm at least leaning town on ika.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ABR

Elaborate on Syr scumread tho, make me see it.

ABR and me never tend to see things eye to eye, but I don't think it's indicative of alignment for him, we just read things different.

How is this a train of thought when you're saying ABR seems scummy and then stating something you know about him tending to not see eye to eye with you meta-wise? And you also claim to not be reaction testing?

I'm having a lot of trouble following your play here.

---

@Mala

Well Molla's town.

Please explain, I'm not seeing it.

Molla's probably town along with FB and Spiffeh is likely scum but then again that's pretty transparent eh?

Wait how is spiffeh scum?
I would like to hear this.

Gut, maybe a bit of probably inconclusive meta and moar gut.

Your vote seems kind of useless just sitting there on gut.
Goign back to your response to me about voting off the FB wagon, how do you expect to get information from Day 1 if there aren't significant wagons to look back at later? Personal preferences aside, this is a different format from what most of us are used to and there's not a lot of time to chill and do nothing.
We need to be deciding on a lynch right now don't you think?

---
I think I'd settle on Ranger for today as well, and I'm certainly not townreading Molla for his shifting sands play.

[talah]

I didn't believe his Syr read could be genuine and voted him

he explained it

I found it could be genuine and unvoted

You seem off as fuck but you might just be awful

No that's not what you said, you said that ABR and you "never tend to see things eye to eye".
This is something you knew before voting ABR.

ABR and me

never tend to see things eye to eye

, but I don't think it's indicative of alignment for him, we just read things different.

In which case you're town-reading Syryana way too hard just for agreeing with you.
And are only voting ABR to get a response. Which you then vote off when you get the response.

I'll agree the ability for someone to change their mind tends town, but changing your mind like 5 times on Day 1 as soon as the people you are scumreading respond to you... Uh yeah no.

[talah]

Realtalk: I wasn't joking when I voted Firebringer.

Explain the scumread please.

[talah]

Explain the scumread please.

There is no explanation I can give that can top the one Syryana already gave. Just go with that one.

So... you had no reasons of your own?

Do feel free to ask me questions Ranger - I'm here right now.

[talah]

Scum tend to make shit up right? If someone is using the same exact reasoning I am, they likely aren't scum.

Uhhhh, no quite often scum will sheep town that are wrong and augment their arguments.

So why is ABR not automatically scum when he has different views?

That is not the question. The question is why do you settle on a

meta argument

about him generally not seeing eye to eye with you, to town him, after you've already made a

specific argument

about him being scummy in this game?

Because I plausibly believed ABR could have those views at my point of unvoting. Obviously I did not when I voted and was why I asked him.

Well I can see that's what you're pushing. I don't know if you came around to it or if you're just full of shit, but I'm not reading your agression as authentic.

[talah]

So... you had no reasons of your own?

Nice misrep.

I said Syryana said it better than I could. Not that I didn't have reasons of my own.

Syryana just stole every possible reason I could have listed before I could post any of my own. My early posting should have made it quite clear I saw the same things he did. If you'd like, I could go through the posting and do my own wording, but it will end up just being an inferior rehash of what Syryana so thoroughly did the first time.

Generally town are able to just reference their memory and state what they were thinking.

At the time you had wagoned FB because wagons (ok good, fine), and then stated that you were now scumreading FB.

I want to know what you were thinking at that time and I don't really care what Syryana said because obviously he went into some detail, and you didn't.

So again - you had no reason of your own to scumread Firebringer?
If that question's too hard for you, how are you reading Firebringer now?

[talah]

town:
bbmolla
Ranger

A sentence about why each are town please?

[talah]

HE EXPLAINED HIS REASONING

I FOUND IT PLAUSIBLE

He explained his reasoning!
You said you and him always don't see eye to eye!

[talah]

Mmm sorta maybe.

[talah]

Prodgin' from work.

Hi DGB :) no, we didn't know that afaik, and yes I can tentatively agree they're stupid but things are starting to make a bit more sense to me now.

Back in a couple of hours.

[talah]

You're shitvoting town Molla.

[talah]

Have you changed your mind about this? Seems like yiu have two people in your scumpool but voted neither.

My scumpool doesn't have either an FB or a Nosferatu in it anymore. FB primarily because I went and reread the thread and taking into account Molla's point about SC2 players not taking RVS seriously and the fact he's been pretty fucking town since. Nosferatu's posting got a lot better too.

These are both players that pushed back, hard, on both you and Molla. Seems easy to town them for crap reasons if you're scum.

Well that Firebringer wagon evaporated pretty quickly.

Wagons tend to do that when the person being wagoned starts obvtowning.

And your definition of obvtowning is directly above. That's not obvtowning, it's your read and you saying he's been pretty fucking town.
That's phrasing from you, and justification in the form of agreeing with Molla. If you're not *actually* masons with him, then he's not confirmed town to you and you'd need to provide pretty solid reasons Molla's town, otherwise you could just be supporting wrong-town (or scum with him).
Do correct me if you believe I'm wrong.

Given that I don't like the ABR / ika options and Firebringer might be town given the main drivers are no longer voting him, I'm happy with this in principle and for a couple of other reasons.
VOTE: Syryana

...so you vote one of the drivers? Also is there any particular reason you have to be on a wagon? This also seems like rather a lot of justification for voting me.

Yeah I vote the guy who was sheeping the guy yelling that a player's scum, after the wagon evaporates and they both proceed to do the rounds creating wagons to see if weak spots and easy lynches exist.
The reason I vote you instead of Molla, is that Molla might just be looking for information, and it looks like you're all about securing the lynch... on anyone.

---

@Syr

Why did you unvote FB when he was at L-2? There was no risk there as long as nobody else voted him. Your unvote was pointless imo.

He was technically at L-1 when I unvoted, primarily because Ika is a lolhammer.

Also because there was no danger in unvoting him. Is my "pointless unvote" why you're scumreading me?

So if we remove risk of the lolhammer, why are you unvoting at "L-1"? You'll agree it diminishes pressure on the wagon, and you then went ahead and justified your unvote by saying that it was waiting until *I* was satisfied?
I'm not responsible for your actions dude and there was no reason to unvote him unless you stared townreading him at that point, which you didn't.

And no, that's not the only reason I'm voting you but it's one of them. If you want full elaboration I think someone else is planning to post something here shortly but it relates to what DGB's posted and possibly your own hivemind/mason references.

The other couple of reasons I think you're suspicious are your immediate engagement with me regarding caps-posting which I don't recall from the one or two times previously when we played (when I think you were hydra'ing with ffery and possibly Nacho?). I don't remember the exact context of each game but I remember I liked your posting and attempted to interact. I think your natural state most of the time is a lot less proactive than you're being right now. So I feel you've got something you want to push and it doesn't really look like scumhunting to me. It looks like wanting a lynch and you don't care who.

You leave my mason buddy the fuck alone.

I'm presuming this is an overstatement.

Your vote seems kind of useless just sitting there on gut.
Goign back to your response to me about voting off the FB wagon, how do you expect to get information from Day 1 if there aren't significant wagons to look back at later? Personal preferences aside, this is a different format from what most of us are used to and there's not a lot of time to chill and do nothing.
We need to be deciding on a lynch right now don't you think?

This part makes me squint really really fucking hard. You seem a lot more interested in being on a lynch wagon than you do in actually finding scum.

Squint all you like, I'm not the one shitvoting whoever I feel I can lynch.

So... you had no reasons of your own?

Nice misrep.

I said Syryana said it better than I could. Not that I didn't have reasons of my own.

Syryana just stole every possible reason I could have listed before I could post any of my own. My early posting should have made it quite clear I saw the same things he did. If you'd like, I could go through the posting and do my own wording, but it will end up just being an inferior rehash of what Syryana so thoroughly did the first time.

Generally town are able to just reference their memory and state what they were thinking.

At the time you had wagoned FB because wagons (ok good, fine), and then stated that you were now scumreading FB.

I want to know what you were thinking at that time and I don't really care what Syryana said because obviously he went into some detail, and you didn't.

So again - you had no reason of your own to scumread Firebringer?
If that question's too hard for you, how are you reading Firebringer now?

Line 1 is total bullshit.
Line 2 is pointless.
Line 3 he's answered already. Also if you don't buy that he has no reason outside of what I already posted, why are you voting me instead of him since according to you detail is a good thing?
Line 4: Let me spell it out for you. H-E W-A-S H-I-V-E-M-I-N-D-I-N-G W-I-T-H M-E A-N-D M-O-L-L-A.

1) I know when I'm town all I really need to do is R-E-M-E-M-B-E-R what I was thinking at any given point in time and then I can scan back and provide reasoning.
If you think I'm being too harsh there, or am wrong, please explain why town would have mental blanks about their own behaviour generally as often as scum do. TIA.

2) No, what was pointless was Ranger's own post stating that his RVS vote had transitioned to a "serious" vote, without giving any of his own reasoning. Which was the odd behaviour I thought was scummy and was following up with.

3) Yes, he's answered pretty unequivocally that he'll leave the explaining to you. If you're in a 3p neighbourhood with him and Molla then my logicz is going to say that there's at least one scum in it.
You gave detail, but compared to your pushes the detail lacks a feeling of wanting to find scum. Ranger simply had no reason at all. I'm not comparing the scumminess of you two and weighing it up - I'm assessing whether your motivations are town or scum independently. (At least at that point in time.)

4) Good-o. What do you think of DGB's post about neighbourhoods being shitty then?

[talah]

Hey. FB wagon isn't happening right now. Come vote Talah with me!

*sigh*
Fine.

VOTE: talah.

I like talah so far. Makes good posts and isn't afraid of anything.

I call BS.

Interesting, these two statements from the same post don't seem to hold the same state of mind.
First you're sighing that you have to switch your vote to me, then you're calling BS on someone calling me town.

[talah]

I am getting a bad vibe of Talah posts by the way. Sounds distant and neutral sounding.
Is that normal for you Talah?

I haven't had the role I have before, but you've got completed game meta with me now that Molla's game is over.
So you can probably answer that yourself if you scan the first few pages of the game.

[talah]

First you're sighing that you have to switch your vote to me, then you're calling BS on someone calling me town.

...And?

And why are you sighing and then saying at the same time that you have 'reasonz' to be voting me?
A vote you're reluctant to make is by definition a vote you *don't* have good reasons for?

[talah]

I honestly don't think you have any reasoning backing up what you've done so far this game.

[talah]

I want to lynch Syr / Ranger / Firebringer today.

I'd *maybe* settle with ika simply because of his ridiculous strong-towns on Molla and Ranger, and also because he's obviously someone who doesn't survive to any serious point in the game anyway. Despite possibly being town.
He's my last preference though. I liked that he stated Mala might be scum and that he voted ABR for some reason as those are actions he'd probably be called out on.
Unfortunately if he has no interest in answering questions directed at him but is just basically shitposting, the reasoning for me not wanting to lynch him lacks any gravity.

town:
bbmolla
Ranger

A sentence about why each are town please?

*crickets*

mala, why are you ignoring me?

Uh yeah, basically this playstyle is he'll do his own thing and ignore anything anyone asks of him.

I could go there if noone else has the cojones to lynch my top 3.

[talah]

Unfortunately if he has no interest in answering questions directed at him

Okay I might have gone a bit overboard with this assessment looking at the rest of what he's posted, but my gut is that he's not going to be addressing anything that has any *meaning* if you know what I mean.

Anyway I've posted like 10 times in a row now and mailing in answers and scumhunting is shitty so ima shut up for now.

We have about a day to decide who's the best lynch. Not a lot of time folks.

[talah]

I can go with that.

UNVOTE: Syryana
VOTE: Ranger

Happy to let the JK/Roleblocker claims sort themselves for Night 1.

Since he's not saying it, Spiffeh, Pere and I are in an anytime-talk neighbourhood. If one of the two is scum, it's probably Spiffeh. But I figure I can nut it out since it's a lot quieter and rational over there.

Anyway, off to work. Tick-tock.

[talah]

Molla's Large Normal literally just finished and contained a 1-shot BP doc and a 2-shot BP bodyguard, both town.
If you think there aren't roles/setups that counter two similar town roles, think again.

[talah]

I'd be comfortable with Huntress or talah for today, I'd need to be convinced for anything outside of that.

Mind throwing out a couple of reasons for that assessment?
Also we have what - 10 hours?

I think Ranger is the best option. She's shown no inclination to provide reasoning beyond surface-level attributions of alignment. There's no arriving at the destination.
My interactions with her have been simply dismissive on her part with token answers which defeat the purpose of asking questions in the first place.

Ranger or ika please townies.

I'm not going to be voting either of Syr or DGB Day 1 with both claims on the table. The risk is way too high without further information which is only going to come from letting a night pass.

edit: okay 12 hours.

[talah]

Yeah we only have 12 hours. What's the plan?

lynch DGB

Why are you wanting to lynch a JailKeeper claim when we have no information aside from the current claims?

[talah]

Possibly not, but it's really easy for scum to push a claim-lynch on Day 1 onto the wrong option, even considering that one might be scum.
We need objective information on what happens overnight now that the claims exist.

And anyway - you claimed Mason Doctor Cop?
So how does you trolling support your argument?

[talah]

Okay. Well you were under no actual vote pressure so the claim was probably a bad move.

My argument is not shitty at all. It's actually the optimal play when you have seeming counterclaims with no additional night-action information. And we also need to decide on a reasonable lynch that is either likely scum, clears out bullshit, or both.

I'm going to suggest you vote Ranger then if you actually care about the outcome of this game.

[talah]

What's my town-case on Syryana, or you?

ABR was pretty town by the way. He was confrontational and alert and then apparently just got pissed off and replaced. DGB I'm always tending to give a day to prove herself anyway.

When you say my argument is pretty weak - I think you arguing that it's LOLGOODPLAY to lynch a claimed jailkeeper when we don't have any night action results to make good decisions on, is something far more than weak.

[talah]

like if this were to be a full vanilla game instead would you still say the same thing?

what if it was an open? would you still go with what your saying?

No, if this were a full vanilla game there would be no PRs.

If it was an open we would have setup information and could discuss likelihoods of direct counter-claims.

If I presume one of DGB and Syr is town and one is scum (which I don't, by the way, but let's go with that as an example), what we have now is:

Town1: not sure
Town2: not sure, leaning scum
Town3: not sure
Town4: not sure, leaning town
...
Scum1: MUST LYNCH TOWN PR CLAIM
Scum2: MUST LYNCH TOWN PR CLAIM
...

Do you see that based on no rational or logical argument except for the counterclaims, town lose if scum hold the balance of power in a situation where no additional information exists?
The correct play is to let both claims survive the lynch and have a chance to perform an action which they will necessarily claim tomorrow.

[talah]

not moving my vote

Good for you sportsfan

[talah]

1)What's my town-case on Syryana, or you?

2)ABR was pretty town by the way. He was confrontational and alert and then apparently just got pissed off and replaced. DGB I'm always tending to give a day to prove herself anyway.

3)When you say my argument is pretty weak - I think you arguing that it's LOLGOODPLAY to lynch a claimed jailkeeper when we don't have any night action results to make good decisions on, is something far more than weak.

1)im not you care to link it?

2) he can do that as both town and scum jsyk

3) congratulations on not refuting the point nd jsut resorting to discredits

The point you made was literally "your argument is weak". There was nothing to refute except that I don't think it's weak at all and I think your line of thinking is weaker.
Which I then proceeded to explain in the same sentence.
Are you just wanting to say things like "discredit" because they make people look scummy? Or are you trying to figure out the game?

As to 1) it was a rhetorical question, if you elaborate on what you want linked I will endeavour to be your linking slave.

As to 2) yeah everyone can and that's a trite phrase.

[talah]

talah both ABR and DGB haver been scummy as shit

I'm not prepared to risk it. Apparently you are.

[talah]

tell me what scum has then to counterballance 3 portective (yes i consider rb to be a protective role they can block nk)

like im looking at this form setup spec alone, so we are proballylookign at two diffrent wavelenght right now

Oh my god this is like deja vu from Molla's game.

I don't know they have a fucking potato monster with hocks of ham for arms that shoots poison fire-bees from its mouth whenever it posts in this thread.
There are role combinations that easily counter RB / JK.

I dunno, Ascetic redirector to start with? It's a theme.

[talah]

Since he's not saying it, Spiffeh, Pere and I are in an anytime-talk neighbourhood. If one of the two is scum, it's probably Spiffeh. But I figure I can nut it out since it's a lot quieter and rational over there.

Or far more likely, it's you.

Oh, GGWP you nailed it.

[talah]

great risk is great reward

tell ya what, if DGB flips town i will ehlp you lynch ranger tommorw

I don't know what I'll be doing tomorrow if I'm even alive as we'll actually have more information then and Ranger wasn't my top choice for lynch until Syryana claimed anyway.
So this is not really winning me over, thanks for the offer.

[talah]

^See if you were posting explanatory shit like that along with your reads I wouldn't be scumreading you.

Unfortunately, you're not.

[talah]

I'd be comfortable with Huntress or talah for today, I'd need to be convinced for anything outside of that.

The only thing stopping me from agreeing is that

DGB is very transparently scum and Syryana very much transparently town.

Explain this.

[talah]

Syryana is the most obvious town player to have ever obvtowned.

Ever

. Throw in him doing CC that is suicidal for scum to make, and he is town.

He's loud and certainly wants to lynch... someone... but no he's not obvtown. He might be town but you stating that he's obvtown is far from clarifying things for me. Why is he obvtown to you?

ABR was posting like scum when he was in the game. DGB has done nothing to change that, relying on a crutch-claim to cruise by without actually doing anything. That said claim was CCed by Syryana only solidifies the scumread.

Again - when you say ABR "was posting like scum" there's no explanation. You're stating opinion without reason.
And if you think Syr is town for counterclaiming when it would be suicidal for scum to do so -- what makes you think that DGB-scum would blindly walk into a jailkeeper claim as scum?

I asked you to explain. Not summarise what you'd already said.

[talah]

what makes you think that DGB-scum would blindly walk into a jailkeeper claim as scum?

Because jailkeeper is probably her actual role, so she thought it would be safe to claim without being counterclaimed.

Given that I've already claimed daytalk for my neighbourhood, wouldn't you think it would be safe to assume scum also has daytalk?

Also several people have floated the idea that ffery might be giving safe-fakeclaims - do you think JK vs Roleblocker is a "safe fakeclaim"? Do you think the mod providing fakeclaims is plausible?

[talah]

I know it is plausible by the way, I'm wondering what you're thinking, though.

[talah]

Deadline: November 6, 2:00 pm US Eastern Time
Countdown: (expired on 2015-11-06 11:00:00)

It's late here and Friday and I have things to do before I go to bed.

I'm not going to be around for deadline unless Ima insomnia which is not unheard of
But you assholes best get your shit in gear and help lynch Ranger or someone who doesn't fuck town if they end up being town.

Enjoy.

[talah]

VOTE: Kid A

Sheepin'.
bbl

[talah]

Mala had precisely one vote on her before you voted her bringing the total to two.

Really if you want to vote me, you should be doing so.

[talah]

I honestly don't know who the fuck is is scum in Talah/Mala/Kid A, they've all had equally abysmal reads.

Ergo, sheep-n-watch.

[talah]

You're probably going to find Mala is the Vig or claiming it.

[talah]

One of her first posts about purrrrfect shots and again today I think.

[talah]

Since he's not saying it, Spiffeh, Pere and I are in an anytime-talk neighbourhood.

By the way: there's, 100%, scum between {Spiffeh, talah, PeregrineV}.

What makes me think this?

This:

Did I mention I hate neighborhoods, and they shouldn't exist?

Could that be coincidence, sure, do I think it is? No, I think that was a slip.

Actually DGB saying this was what made me think there were other neighbourhoods aside from ours (well along with what I perceived to be another neighbourhood claim from you, Molla and Syr).

After it was clarified that the mason/hivemind references weren't actually mason-based I still had it in mind that DGB could have been in a neighbourhood and we could have been dealing with a multi-neighbourhood setup where there were one or more scum in each (or say none in one and two in another).
Initially my thought was that I was in a nerfed masonry. But you could be right there.

The reason Pere gut-triggered me as being town (this is off the top of my head, and I'll be reading back over our PT in a bit) was that he initially posted a role crumb which is the same crumb I would have posted if I'd been thinking about it. I crumbed the role back. Spiffeh didn't pick up on the crumbs, but on reflection there's no real reason to think he (or Pere) would have the same role given the title of our PT.

The initial reason I was scumreading Spiffeh was that he confronted me with a scumread in-thread rather than in the PT (and didn't spot the role crumbs although as I mentioned that could be moot). I guess that's pretty townie though? When I mentioned that he said he didn't trust neighbourhoods in general.

I think - if you're assuming fakeclaims are a thing then Pere is more likely scum in our neighbourhood. If you think they're not, then Spiffeh is more likely.

I'd still like to think we were a masonry by all but name, but to do that I'd have to mentally resolve a setup that contains

Scum

Scum Jailkeeper
Scum Joat (Strongman, Ability Cop)
Scum xxx

Town

Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Neighbourhood (3 players)
Innocent Child
Town
Town
Town
Town

Maybe Town

Potential Town Vig (always possible SK)


...soooo, dunno.

Anyway I'm around for a bit. Not sure what your schedule is Nosferatu, since you said you wanted to talk.

[talah]

Also, I'm a Four Mile Circus Freak for the record.

[talah]

Apparently there's only one neighbourhood which DGB had foreknowledge of, unless DGB was legitimately in another.

[talah]

im almost wanting amass call at this point

If we believe there are only three scum, probably a good idea.

Well it's either massclaim or it's not.
I can make some presumptions based on this and DGB's comment. I don't see how it's detrimental if you're for massclaim but not for neighbourhood claim.

[talah]

My role has no other abilities.

I'm just trying to figure out if it's worthwhile going gentle into the good night to flip me, but I don't see how it is helpful.

[talah]

Because Mala stated a scumread on huntress which was actually a townread.

[talah]

Because Mala stated a scumread on huntress which was actually a townread.

so you are saying mala is the sk?

Well I wouldn't think it is anyone else given the crumbing.
Potentially speaking, at least.

[talah]

Because Mala stated a scumread on huntress which was actually a townread.

so you are saying mala is the sk?

Well I wouldn't think it is anyone else given the crumbing.
Potentially speaking, at least.

so why would SK!mala blaineley crumb vig?

Scum or SK both would and do, to cover for future nightkills.
Vig can as well.

I've been killed (blatantly) by scum claiming Vig in two games now. But both of those games my reads were pretty correct.
I don't know if town Vig actually works in this setup, but it's a possibility I guess.

[talah]

What difference does it actually make to you?

[talah]

Also you're too late in most instances, so all you're trying to do is protect your own claim?

[talah]

Strongman's dead so if you're Cop etc we have a Doc that will die before you...

[talah]

UNVOTE: Kid A
VOTE: Malakittens

I'm prepared to force this claim.

[talah]

Egh well whatever. I've already claimed and frankly am not too perturbed by threats of being lynched.
This even though it would actually be my first mislynch.

I think Mala is either SK or needs to claim her role.
Massclaim I'll leave in the hands of the other players.

Considering the current claims I don't really see how it hurts unless there is an actual investigative role with a result.
Strongman being dead entirely mitigates that.


Actually ika, I'm presuming you protected Syryana? I'm not sure how that would work resolution-wise since huntress dies but Nosferatu - You're the expert I guess?

[talah]

Checking in, just going to play a couple of games of Isaac after work.

@Nosferatu - you said you wanted to interact. I'm here. I think I'll be looking over your ISO in an hour or so as I'm keen to dance today for some reason.

[talah]

Why is PV scum?

TLDR

2 neighbourhoods exist

I'm in one with PV and Spiffeh

Groupthink says there's one scum in our neighbourhood (as DGB was apparently in a different neighbourhood and flipped scum).

And PV's ISO is pretty bare (although that's not really a scumtell for him. He's a bit more explantory in our PT).

Welcome!

[talah]

If I were going to put 2 neighbourhoods in the same game I doubt I'd put exactly 1 scum in both.

That's my inclination (and frankly hope) as well.

[talah]

Spiffeh there's one major reason why Kid A is town. Scum wouldn't claim the same flavor. Kid A's flavor matches mine and I'm town so really knock it off

DGB claimed the same flavour.
Your argument is invalid.

[talah]

Possibly Mala considering the timing of the claim from Kid A but it says nothing about your own flavour claim if you're an SK.

I suppose DGB could also have gleaned the Vorga flavour from a neighbourhood PT depending what was in there.

[talah]

I'm not going to catch up before deadline, told the mod as much before I replaced in.

No-one's catching up on traditional terms in this game, get used to it :D

[talah]

Mala I am saying that I doubt anyone on the DGB wagon is scum because flipped scum were fighting hard to save her.

I don't want to involve myself in you guys' argument here but you're talking huntress who voted Ranger in an effort to apparently save DGB - who is one flipped scum.
I sort of? agree that it's more likely the remaining scum (if there are 3) was off the wagon..

But you're talking about one scum, not multiple. Several folks including yourself have been claiming towncred for it.
Funnily Ranger is probably the only player I can think of right now who had *really really certain* correct reads on Syr and DGB who isn't directly sucking up cred. Although her play today is much improved from my perspective.

Anyways I'll be back in a bit, around-ish in the meantime.

ed: nighters then Mala.

[talah]

True enough I guess. huntress voted Ranger and FoS'd me even though I was on the Ranger wagon and pushing it.

[talah]

I mean I feel like common sense should dictate that I'm pretty obvtown after the flip and it still baffles me that Mala and Kid A thought otherwise.

So yes give me my town cred and don't question me thx

Okay, no problem. I did sheep you out of the gates today on Kid A but I dropped him off my potential lynch list yesterday (where I had ika, Ranger, Syr, Firebringer until Syr and ika claimed) due to what he was posting as I was making the list. So you have chamber to examine now and I don't mind that at all and I look forward to his catch-up as well.

ed: bbl

[talah]

So are there 3 neighbourhoods in total?

I honestly have no fucking idea anymore.

That was my assumption when DGB referenced being in a neighbourhood and we already had HiveMind strats from Molla, Syr and Ranger.

[talah]

In before "Neighbourhood Overseer" as a role.

[talah]

Unless someone comes out and claims being in a neighbourhood with DGB.

The other two things we have going on to my mind (apart from my Nosferatu ISO which may or may not happen toady at this stage) are:

Why did Syryana die after DGB flipped scum when we have a claimed Doc in ika who should have protected him?, and
How did huntress die when Mala as "probable Vig" had Spiffeh as the stronger scumread?

This may be a resolution thing, which I was actually wanting to engage Nosferatu about, too.

[talah]

That seems like a bit too much of a coincidence, which does imply one of the scum are in one of the 2.

ya it's PV

What are your reads on me and Spiffeh?

I'm worried that we'll end up lynching a townie out of our neghbourhood and then narrowing it down to 2, then lynching the last...

If we all flip town we're pretty fucked, obv.

[talah]

my change of vote should say something mala. If it's not over its right back to you

Who did you protect last night?

[talah]

Actually ika, I'm presuming you protected Syryana?

Who did you protect last night?

[talah]

Molla I honestly don't give a shit at this stage if I'm lynched if it actually *proves* anything for me to flip town.

And yeah it does matter who he protected because he should have been protecting Syr and if he wasn't that's necessary information.
If he was and the strongman from huntress resolved to kill Syr and then the "Vig" successfully killed huntress anyway, that's important information don't you think?

Either way I was wnating Nosferatu to come back at me with a theory or facts since he already said he wanted to engage.

[talah]

If he was and the strongman from huntress resolved to kill Syr and then the "Vig" successfully killed huntress anyway, that's important information don't you think?

Why does that matter at all?

Is the normal (or "standard") event resolution
Scum Strongman Kills Town Roleblocker (Doc Protect) (success)
Town Vig Kills Scum Strongman (success)

Why is the Doc alive?

[talah]

Strongman bypasses roleblock and doc heals fyi

Who kills first out of Vig/SK and Scum?

[talah]

I agree that the claim stuff probably doesn't matter much, I'm not sure talah is scummy for falling for it though. It's a reasonable thing to get tripped up by.

Seems kind of scummy...
I don't know.
Still unsure of Talah. You never know where a fish has their allegiance too.

LOOK AT THE TULLYS (GOT, wait are they the fish bannerman?)

Egh. Hi (officially) town Firebringer.
Shed crystal tears for me and I'll be happy to eat a lynch or vig. Problem I have is it still leaves two unresolved in my neighbourhood and I'm not sure which, if either, is scum.

We have less than a day on the timer?

[talah]

If he was and the strongman from huntress resolved to kill Syr and then the "Vig" successfully killed huntress anyway, that's important information don't you think?

Why does that matter at all?

Is the normal (or "standard") event resolution
Scum Strongman Kills Town Roleblocker (Doc Protect) (success)
Town Vig Kills Scum Strongman (success)

Why is the Doc alive?

I would say yes and nothing looks remotely questionable? Kills resolve at the same time. It's not like they can stop each other? And the rare time I have seen them resolved that way, it was mafia's the went first not vigs.

The scum didn't know hunter was going to get NKed. Their intent could have been to try and frame ika. Also they had a free shot at not killing the doctor because of the strongman 1-shot.

It wasn't expicitly stated that the JOAT is 1-shot unless that's also a thing I'm not aware of.

I did not know that kills resolved at the same time but thanks.
I guess if it's scum resolves first in any tiebreaker then it makes sense.

Nice if Nosferatu, y'know, posted something to this effect since he seemed pretty keen to explain resolutions and interact with me and Pere.

[talah]

Strongman is a role modifier that signifies that any kills performed by this player cannot be blocked by any means - neither by Bulletproof, nor by Doctor or other protective roles, nor by Roleblocks.

I understand what strongman is, but I thought that if the scum was being killed it would prevent the scumkill as well if Syr was protected considering huntress flipped as strongman (and I don't presume there are two).

Which is why I wanted clarification.

[talah]

it would prevent the scumkill as well if Syr was protected

Actually this is unrelated. I just figured a kill on scum would prevent the dead scum from killing.

[talah]

Talah why don't you relax lol.
Its a game, and I am not pushing you.
Just trying to better understand you is all.
Right now you feel null to me, and setup specing I consider not alignment indicative.

K TY Mr IC.
That summon / reveal was epic btw :D

[talah]

Hi DGB! Long time no see...

Possibly.

[talah]

Actually lol.

He was in Molla's game as scum which just finished where DGB got lynched as town.

Fine, I'm down.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: pignash

[talah]

How so?

I posted the current claims (ignoring any other neighbourhoods) here:

Spoiler:

Since he's not saying it, Spiffeh, Pere and I are in an anytime-talk neighbourhood.

By the way: there's, 100%, scum between {Spiffeh, talah, PeregrineV}.

What makes me think this?

This:

Did I mention I hate neighborhoods, and they shouldn't exist?

Could that be coincidence, sure, do I think it is? No, I think that was a slip.

Actually DGB saying this was what made me think there were other neighbourhoods aside from ours (well along with what I perceived to be another neighbourhood claim from you, Molla and Syr).

After it was clarified that the mason/hivemind references weren't actually mason-based I still had it in mind that DGB could have been in a neighbourhood and we could have been dealing with a multi-neighbourhood setup where there were one or more scum in each (or say none in one and two in another).
Initially my thought was that I was in a nerfed masonry. But you could be right there.

The reason Pere gut-triggered me as being town (this is off the top of my head, and I'll be reading back over our PT in a bit) was that he initially posted a role crumb which is the same crumb I would have posted if I'd been thinking about it. I crumbed the role back. Spiffeh didn't pick up on the crumbs, but on reflection there's no real reason to think he (or Pere) would have the same role given the title of our PT.

The initial reason I was scumreading Spiffeh was that he confronted me with a scumread in-thread rather than in the PT (and didn't spot the role crumbs although as I mentioned that could be moot). I guess that's pretty townie though? When I mentioned that he said he didn't trust neighbourhoods in general.

I think - if you're assuming fakeclaims are a thing then Pere is more likely scum in our neighbourhood. If you think they're not, then Spiffeh is more likely.

I'd still like to think we were a masonry by all but name, but to do that I'd have to mentally resolve a setup that contains

Scum

Scum Jailkeeper
Scum Joat (Strongman, Ability Cop)
Scum xxx

Town

Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Neighbourhood (3 players)
Innocent Child
Town
Town
Town
Town

Maybe Town

Potential Town Vig (always possible SK)


...soooo, dunno.

Anyway I'm around for a bit. Not sure what your schedule is Nosferatu, since you said you wanted to talk.

[talah]

I mean, I don't think I'm actually right. Much more likely is a 1-shot vig. Just getting conflicting things from the way I read day 1 vs the setup spec.

I actually don't get the 1-shot Vig spec. The setup seems complex enough as it is. I want to tend SK just because of the Roleblocker and Doc.
But then I'm not a setup-spec champ unless things don't make sense.
I'm just struggling to see how a 1-shot Vig makes sense.

[talah]

Also we have Scum Jailkeeper flipped which is pretty overpowered?

[talah]

Am I good to hammer then? No more insights?

Kinda keen there champ. You also didn't even ask for a claim with your intent.

[talah]

Depends if you're actually interested in hearing the claim I suppose.

If you have intent, noone else is supposed to hammer while you wait for a claim, but it doesn't seem like you care either way.

[talah]

Why would I put intent if I didn't care, talah? That's asinine.

Pardon me?

You claimed intent to hammer and didn't ask for a claim.

Then you asked if it was all cool for you to hammer when you hadn't seen a claim.

Not ask for claim + not wait for claim = don't care about claim.
What am I missing here? You don't CARE what he claims you just want to LYNCH him. Right?

[talah]

Why were you saying "Long time no see" to DGB in one of your first posts when you were also playing with her in Molla's large?

[talah]

Oh okay.

[talah]

Actually, weirdly I don't think you're scum.
I don't think there was a reason for you to state intent to want to see DGB's flip, then later ask "what's the plan" with 12 hours to go.

UNVOTE: pignash
VOTE: Nosferatu

Incidentally Pere's already claimed in our PT, so I'm actually keen to see it in this thread as well. It's really interesting theory-wise for me.

We have what just under a day? I don't think Pere's scum. I think Nosferatu's just belly-aching and not really interested in figuring out the game.

I'll wait for PV and talah to post, and maybe interact before I decide to vote again.

what is talah on about, I never asked to talk with you, I said I wanted to see you interact with someone else. This is like the third time you've misrepresented/misinterpreted something.

Your statement is ambiguous. The fact I picked one interpretation over the other doesn't mean I'm misrepresenting you.
Also why wouldn't you want to interact with your scumreads, then?

[talah]

and it really isn't ambiguous, take out the "to post, and maybe" from the sentence and it reads "I'll wait for PV and talah to interact before I decide to vote again"

Not to put too fine a point on it, and ignoring your generally butthurt attitude, if I add two words (which could be implied anyway) rather than removing four words we end up with
"I'll wait for PV and talah to post, and maybe interact

with them

before I decide to vote again."
Which makes more sense to me from a scumhunting perspective.

Anyhow it's not really the point. The point is if you're thinking I'm misrepresenting you then you've got to think there's a reason for that, and I don't understand why you think that me wanting to interact with you makes me scummy.

So - anyway. You're buying into a multiball scenario are you? I don't get that. The flips from the two scum we've seen didn't have any kind of protection so presumably you wouldn't be buying that there's also a town vig involved. Which calls into question why you're searching for a second team which doesn't include Mala.

---

Four Mile Circus Freak. It doesn't say neighbor, but it says I'm in a neighborhood with Spiffeh & talah. Which I am.

So my open question here is - if Pere's scum would he be provided with a fakeclaim which *exactly matches* my own role?
I think initially I was thinking it was possible if we all three had the same roles - but if we have two that match and one that doesn't where are we at? Spiffeh's yet to claim and as I mentioned, he missed the Freak crumbs in-thread.

[talah]

didn't have any kind of protection

Wait, my bad. Jailkeeper *is* a protective role.
Still.

I'll compromise on pignash over Pere but I'm really yet to see anything which strikes me as town from Nosferatu, and the fact they're just getting snarky rather than attempting to scumhunt or engage makes me think they're likely scum.
I still want Mala's claim but I guess it can wait until tomorrow.

[talah]

So - anyway. You're buying into a multiball scenario are you? I don't get that. The flips from the two scum we've seen didn't have any kind of protection so presumably you wouldn't be buying that there's also a town vig involved. Which calls into question why you're searching for a second team which doesn't include Mala.

Uh, no, I think it's singleball, with a possible sk. I think there's a vig that hasn't fired their shot yet. I never mentioned the existence of another team, and it's odd that you would think that I was searching for one.

If it's because I wanted to find out who's on which team, it's because group of scummy people doesn't make a scumteam. If I have scummy people {A, B, C, D, and E} and from interactive analysis you find {[A, B, C] D, E}, WELL SHIT, you were wrong about either D or E; one is possible sk and one is town that you misread. Like for real, critical thinking or naw?

Wow, I can't believe how full of shit you are.

talah and pignash on the same team makes more sense to me than talah and Peregrine.

We have two flipped scum. Are you expecting 4 scum on one team with the scum roles we've seen flipped?
No?

Then why are you trying to rationalise talah/pignash talah/Pere being on the same team if you're not looking at multiball.

Do explain. Also drop the attitude.

[talah]

You could do, but then you have to state what you think about the identical role that Pere has.

[talah]

I think it's more like just over 20%

[talah]

We both have a role 'Four Mile Circus Freak'.

I'm pretty confident that Pere either had an identical fakeclaim or is just town with the same role PM as me.

[talah]

You could do, but then you have to state what you think about the identical role that Pere has.

He's not saying shit here, you might as well out what role he has tbh

He already did egh...

Four Mile Circus Freak. It doesn't say neighbor, but it says I'm in a neighborhood with Spiffeh & talah. Which I am.

[talah]

Right and arguing about that specifically is pointless because you couldn't possibly know which is the case.

I think your own role would have some bearing on it, if it's the same or different.

[talah]

I don't really see how my flavor name makes a difference either way.

Because I think it's highly unlikely that scum are given an identical role fakeclaim which outs the role PM of a single other town-role.
Mayyyyybe if we all 3 had the same role "supposedly". idk.

[talah]

We both have a role 'Four Mile Circus Freak'.

I'm pretty confident that Pere either had an identical fakeclaim or is just town with the same role PM as me.

Literally meaningless.

You're just full of goodposting today aren't you Molla.

[talah]

Well it would be a bit unfair for me to get a role PM for which scum has an identical fakeclaim ready wouldn't it?

[talah]

So as in just a different win condition.

Okay that makes sense I guess.

[talah]

Well
That's the worst game my reads have ever been off lmafo

I beat you there. By a LOT.

What was your role anyway Spiffeh?

[talah]

Oh sorry, new page :P

Vig eh. Noice.

[talah]

Thanks for modding ffery!
Bloody interesting setup, clenched for the the full reveal.

Postgame questions:

- Did the 18 hours til prod, 6 hours to post afterwards rule seem reasonable?
- Would a 48 hour day have been preferable to 72?
- What about the 48 hour night? I thought it was better than 24 hours mostly so players could have downtime every few days.
- Is there anything about the format that you would change?
- My design plans were to make the game design a little more townsided than I ordinarily would because of the short format. I also set things up so that early mass claim would hurt town more than mafia. Was this a reasonable design choice? Why or why not?

- I agree with Spiffeh - I think a 24 hour timer might have been better from my perspective - but then again 18h *did* force me to post either from work or in the morning. However I guess sometimes that was making me post hurried opinions and not be able to allocate a time each day to catch up. Bit against, bit for the less-than-24 hour post timer.
- 48 hour night was fine IMO for the downtime reason you mentioned... however it really depends if the point of these games is to have a short lifetime for the entire game. 24 would have been okay too.
- Format-wise when a 96 hour day was proposed, I actually thought it was a bit short. 4 days I think with 48h nights would be better. 3 days doesn't allow much time to actually scumhunt. But then again I'm really not used to this format so maybe it would just take some getting used to. Also see above.
- I had no idea what was going on with the design. I *thought* I did, but just - nope. It was a really *interesting* design, I'll say that, and had me engaged. Great work on the flavour too! (And very professional and consistent mod-habits. Thanks again :) )

[talah]

What was with Kid A's role?

[talah]

Okey doke, makes more sense I guess since he wasn't in our 'hood. (In the setup thread you have him as a Circus neighbour)

[talah]

Yeah it looked pretty fun over in your neck of the woods.

Ours was all srsbsnss and even then I was hard-townreading Pere just based on the fact I didn't think an identical fakeclaim would be given to my own role. Never seen that before.

So...
Optimal townplay is to just fakeclaim a bunch of bullshit to draw nightkills / confuse scum these days? Along with generally giving no reasons for reads, unless pushed, ofc.
What happens when the well of previously learned meta runs dry?

Egh I understand my reads were really bad this game but I'm used to games where scum can be determined by, y'know, trying to find inconsistencies in stated opinions, and motivations that are scummy.

:(

[talah]

And I'm probably just butthurt, but yeah.

[talah]

Well you were - I'm not going to say easy to read - but at least readable. The first few things you said were risky if you were going to just do nothing afterward and I was able to read you because you engaged with me and explained where you were coming from (I could say the same of Ranger Day 2 and sort of pignash as well, but then with Pere in my blind spot I was looking for something a bit more difficult to find in Nosferatu/Mala, for example).

The problem from my perspective was - I had a bunch of incorrect information I was trying to figure things out based on. And I was travelling on the assumption that town basically don't - or try not to - lie.
This was made all the more frustrating by the fact I had Spiffeh in our PT wanting to out our neighbourhood (ok) and then wanting all of us to claim (ok) which didn't eventuate (probably a good thing but GRR), and Molla and yourself mentioning massclaim when I was drooling over that as well just so we could figure out what was probably true and what was probably false.

[talah]

Thanks for the explanations ika.

Yeah yeah Molla. Well done. I give more credit to Syr but y'know :D
Also your read on me was shit. But you did take time out to explain stuff so, thanks?

<3

[talah]

Well you already know the problem I had was that you went in a roundabout manner just getting reactions I guess at the start of the game with Syr providing explanations and Ranger sheeping. I still have no idea how that was all town (but my "well done" wasn't insincere, it was :rolleyes:).

You think I'm looking at asinine bullshit but then if that was the case it can't have been much different in your large normal. It's just how I scumhunt. The changed gameday broke what I usually do, though. I felt in a constant state of RVS up until about 2 days into the last day.

It's an experience at least. You're obviously different in-game than modding or posting (or even in your PT), so I'm happy to know a bit of how you work.

[talah]

I still have no idea how that was all town

It's all in the style, dahling.

FWIW I thought you were the scummiest scumfuck ever until after I died <3

Well I was trying to fit this into in a post to you before you got killed, but Et tu, Brute.
Yeah it still doesn't make sense given the actual meaning but it stikes me as funny :P

[talah]

Nice to actually play a game with you by the way Syr, the other couple of times have been you in a hydra not posting (the game you forgot I think was Oz Mafia as Rift).

[talah]

That's why I never explained; there was literally nothing I could have said that Syryana hadn't already covered, so my posting would've been redundant.

I think I *kinda sorta* get you here?

I still think you could have explained your own train of thought which I guess you're saying you did.
Thing is that even if I 100% agree with someone I have my own way of arriving at that so usually like to provide some extra content to allow other players to read me as town and prove myself as town. It doesn't always work and sometimes I guess comes across as dross, but the players I came around to townreading this game were mostly players that were able to provide evidence of unique lines of thinking which also made sense to me. Small beer but the only incorrect townread I had was Pere when it comes down to it, and that was based on identifying his claim being identical to mine. I did say ABR seemed townie but that wasn't the specific reason I was defending the slot (it was the cross-claims and fear of mislynching a PR).

I only came around to townreading you when you provided exactly what I was asking for - reasoning. Explanation of what you were thinking.
I suppose I could have been gentler in the asking but you were seriously just sheeping without reason from my perspective.


((Pere you played a great game btw you bastard!))

[talah]

Also I just thought...

Had Spiffeh claimed Vig I would have been tunnelling SK in our neighbourhood and one scum in Molla's.

RIP

[talah]

Oh hey the Rift Adrift band is getting back together, this time as a mod. ClownTardis mafia

Should be in sign-ups in a couple weeks or so.

Role madness eh.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[talah]

I have my own way of arriving at that so usually like to provide some extra content to allow other players to read me as town and prove myself as town.

I was a

watcher

.

Drawing attention to myself (by proving I was town) would've been a

hilariously

bad idea. Simply put, I could've 'proven' I was town fairly easily, but given my role, it was more beneficial for me to remain out of the spotlight.

Well proving is different from "proving" if you take my meaning.
I've only rolled a couple of PRs but the whole 'act a bit scummy' thing hasn't been something I gelled with; I've assumed for me it's better to act as VT (until I end up claiming I guess :P ).
Idk for me I'm generally not worried about being mislynched as any role except scum.