Newbie 561 (Epando City): Game Over

[XReyoX]

/confirm

[XReyoX]

How many ICs do we have?

[XReyoX]

I'm IC. Are you an IC, XReyoX?

I'm not sure how other ppl define an IC. I've played a few themed, minis and marathon games but I'm quite noob in general. Shall we discuss our strategy before the game starts?

[XReyoX]

A bit of pre-game chatter can't hurt, but strategy discussion is of limited use at this stage, since we have to talk about it openly in the thread, where the scum can see it.

I don't think it would matter whether we start now or after it "officially" starts as long as we don't reach the votes required to lynch someone.

Also, scum can SEE the discussion pre-game and in-game, there's no differences.

Please don't fake claim cop or anything when you're not. I support the lynch-all-liars strategy. <- just to let you guys know.

[XReyoX]

And I hate lying townies <- just to let you guys know. XD

[XReyoX]

I hate football. don't flame me.

[XReyoX]

Vote: kabenon007

for stating the obvious

[XReyoX]

XReyoX

I think you're rather suspicious.

Wooo. a fos based on nothing.

[XReyoX]

Yeaaa I'm soooooooo scared XD

[XReyoX]

Hey Nile, are you voting for me?

[XReyoX]

Hello, is everyone asleep?

[XReyoX]

mod: votecount please?

[XReyoX]

Vote: Nile

Lurking scum.

[XReyoX]

mod: votecount please

[XReyoX]

mod : I believe some players need to be replaced. I can't play a game like this.

[XReyoX]

Vote: Tony if the vote wasn't not carried thru.

Tony-
I don't think ergo finds random voting offensive. Bandwagoning usually generate discussion and sometimes put pressure on that person while random vote doesn't because everyone knows its random.

[XReyoX]

Vote: Tony

if the vote wasn't not carried thru.

Tony-
I don't think ergo finds random voting offensive. Bandwagoning usually generate discussion and sometimes put pressure on that person while random vote doesn't because everyone knows its random.

Fixed

[XReyoX]

melodyman23 is now on L-1 (one more vote from being lynched), you know?

[XReyoX]

Tony: Why did you decide to unvote AFTER melchior has posted. Surely if the reason for unvoting is only to prevent melodyman from being hammered, you would have unvoted as soon as you've realized melodyman was on L-1.

Also, what do you mean by potentially scummy dicevoting?

[XReyoX]

First of all, Melchior and Tony, I'm glad that you think that I'm pro-town but in this set up where there IS not doc so the scums could NK whoever they would without worrying anything. If all the townies show who they think are protown, this give the scums a free choice of either 1) NKing the most pro-town person and leave behind the scummy ones to maximize a mislynch or 2) Leaving the pro-town person behind and use 1) as a counter-argument saying because he is scum. Therefore, i believe keeping who you think is pro-town to yourself is better is this particular setup since there is no doc.

As for the chance for hammering MM23, I'm not convinced that he is scum. In fact I don't really see anything is scummy from him, why would I be voting him in the first place?
The attempt on pairing me up with MM23 is horrible. Why would I be telling you "He is on L-1 and I'm not hammering" anyway? To be honest, anyone who hammers in such a situation would basicly be telling us he is scum.

Dicevoting or random voting at the beginning is not a scumtell at all. Thats it, I assure you that.

Mentioning about the cop is of no beneficial to the town on D1, you don't want the scums to be able to guess who is and who isn't, do you?

About policy lynching. I LAL. Makes life much easier for me, I don't want lying townie in my games and I don't want to go discussing how lying town can be beneficial, the possibility of dealing with a lying town and the confusion it can cause me is enough for me, so I stick to this rule.

[XReyoX]

Oh, also, Tony, please don't bold the players' names when you're not voting, fosing or anything. It makes the mod difficult to count the votes.

[XReyoX]

I haven't picked up much yet, sorry.
It's getting late for me but I'll do a re-read tmr. I'd like ergo, MM23 and naybee so say something cos I'm not getting much read from them (almost zero to be honest).

[XReyoX]

Melchoir: Roles will be revealed upon death.

Originally, I had an idea Tony might be a newbie scum trying to quicklynch when he placed his vote on MM23, and was too nervous to hold it up when I point out that MM23 was at L-1. But I think its more likely a newb vibe after reading his following posts.

Thanks, erg0, I didn't notice that MM23 has to have picked up his prod. Otherwise he would have been replaced. So

Fos :MM23

My problem is with votes that are provably random - i.e. based on random.org or a dice roll. I find this mildly suspect, because it indicates that the player has chosen to make a vote without accepting

any

responsibility for their choice. I mean, if I vote someone for a silly reeason it at least provides some sort of content and prompts further discussion. If everyone just came in and rolled dice, where would we go from there?

Good call. I've never thought that dicevoting is worse than jokevoting. Although I don't think its a scumtell, since I do it quite often when I'm too lazy to find a reason(and the dice always tells me to vote myself :S), I'm going to avoid this.

[XReyoX]

XReyoX - 90 - That's enough of a vote of confidence for me!

No. That wasn't the reason I'm voting you. It's only a simple fact that you were replacing nile and I don't feel like voting someone else or not voting at all, so I decided to carry my vote through.

[XReyoX]

Melodyman23: I'm going to vote you soon if you're not going to speak up.

[XReyoX]

I think you misunderstood me there - I meant that what you said constituted a vote of confidence in me, notwithstanding your current vote of no confidence. I'm sure that will be moved elsewhere when the situation warrants it.

OIC LOL.

[XReyoX]

I think the best thing for now is to

Fos: Lurkers

One of them is going to get my vote as a present in 48 hours. Tell me how you'd like it rare, medium or well done?

[XReyoX]

I'm not too worried about putting them at L-1. If they think lurking is acceptable and no one will be willing to lynch them, I'm here to say they are very WRONG.

Mod: Lurkers are saying" Prod me please baby, I want mooooore!"

THX mod

[XReyoX]

Reyo's vote was carried over when Tony and I came in as replacements. Pg 3 I believe.

[XReyoX]

Ah, so you are comfortable with keeping it there?

Don't be impatient. Someone else is gonna get it in what... 26 hours I believe?

Not MM23? He's one of the main ones that we're trying to get active.

This can mean 3 things.

1) Mike has forgotten to prod him.
2) Mike don't think he is lurking.
3) MM23 has informed Mike that he is not posting on purpose, aka, lurking scum.

[XReyoX]

Naybee- I might have come across as too vigorous on this mass attack on lurkers. But you have to understand the differences between lurking towns and lurking scums. Towns lurk in general because they are too busy to come here and look through the thread whereas scums lurk not only because of that, they read the thread and then decide not to post because it minimizes the chance of them making mistakes and discourages discussion. Having nothing to discuss about clearly disadvantages the town.

I'm not sure how you'd define " a large number of posts" but I've only mentioned about lurkers or asked people to speak up in 5 of my posts (out of possibly 30 odd posts I've made). This makes me wonder whether you're feeling a bit pressured by my threat and therefore you are posting. hmm.... Have you picked up the posts I've made about dicevote, hammering MM23 or the post about not to reveal who you think is pro-town or the cop? Apparently not =.=

Anyway this is the first time I've tried to threathen lurkers like this. In most games, I can easily tell who are lurking by looking at their posts( i.e. I can tell that kabenon has been here on Feb 21 - 1:20am, 2.29am, 11.00pm, Feb 22 3.55am(GMT)... but didn't post in the game at all). You were actually the one I was trying to get a read of from pulling this trick because this is the only game you're in and I don't know whether you're just busy or lurking intentionally. On the other hand, MM23 who is also a lurker, has not been active in other games as well which means he might not be lurking on purpose. However because of the inactivity of the game, I felt that using the word lurker was better than targetting a single person so that all the people who feel themselves are lurking would post more and this is more likely for a scum to trip up as well because he would feel I'm not targetting him alone (a subconsious thing?).

I agree with you that putting pressure on lurkers usually doesn't acheive much. But look at the stage of the game, not a lot of people are trying to push the game further and others being inactive isn't helping at all. Therefore I decided to try and move it forward.

I know lynching lurker is not a good option, a town-lynch at worst and a scum-lynch which doesn't give us any clue as to who the other scum is at the very best. Therefore I have planned this beforehand because I knew someone would use this against me when I try to give off the impression that lynching lurker is acceptable. First of all, I've slipped pass as a lurker a number of times when I was scum (in fact I've never been lynched) because the general belief that lynching lurkers is scummy and therefore I knew no-one would do it. Secondly, I did not change my vote intentionally so that the lurkers will not know who I'm going to vote (adding pressure to all). Thirdly, if I'm just thirsty for a kill, I would have just vote one of the lurkers ages ago instead of using the count-down method, sending this "don't you dare not to speak, I'm going to vote you" message across.

Do you mind clarifying what you mean by blending in with the town by being pseudo-helpful and voting without a blame means in your case, naybee?

I think thats enough for now. Long post? Overdefensive? Your turn.

[XReyoX]

He clearly havent read all of my posts. =_=

[XReyoX]

Anyway this is the first time I've tried to threathen lurkers like this. In most games, I can easily tell who are lurking by looking at their posts( i.e. I can tell that kabenon has been here on Feb 21 - 1:20am, 2.29am, 11.00pm, Feb 22 3.55am(GMT)... but didn't post in the game at all). You were actually the one I was trying to get a read of from pulling this trick because this is the only game you're in and I don't know whether you're just busy or lurking intentionally.

This confused me. I gather you think I am lurking, correct? I infer from "You were actually the one I was trying to get a read of from pulling this trick because this is the only game you're in... etc." Or were you referring to someone else? I couldn't tell.

Sorry for confusing you, kabenon, it was just an example. I wasn't trying to say you were lurking...hmm.... maybe just not very active. I try to but not always post in every single game whenever I log on as well. The "you" was referring to naybee.

I've read through all your posts, and a large number of them are focused around lurkers......

X

[XReyoX]

Naybee, its so obvious that you are skimming my posts judging on that post. The bold vote thing wasn't even the only thing I'm calling you out by saying that. Also, you do realize that most of those posts you've quoted are right after others who have pointed out that some players are lurking in order to reinforce that not participating in the game is not an acceptable behaviour, right? I'm not the first one who went " you lurk, vote". Oh no... and I wasn't even the one who's placed his vote on... well except the first and the only one in on nile which in the random voting stage.

Anyway I don't really know what a scummy behaviour is now. Is it lurking, or pointing out who is lurking? I wonder.

I'm saying if you're scum, you're either:
i) Pretending that you're helping by pointing out lurkers.
ii) Taking an easy way out and voting a lurker. No one will blame you for voting a lurker, yes?

By saying I could be scum pretending to help by pointing out lurkers. Do you mean that my behaviour is too protown so I have to be scum? Common scumtell? A better way to phrase it might be " he is scum because he's trying too hard to encourage discussions"

and for ii), both you and MM23 are at L-2. There were 4 people on these wagon yet I'm not even in them and you are saying I'm suspicious? Neither of you were lynch and you are saying I'm taking an easy way out? Blaming me for what? fosing you? Are you making it sounds like I've hammered someone and they turned up town? What would I gain from that if I were scum? Attracting more attention?

[XReyoX]

sorry, didn't check my english before clicking on the submit button.

[XReyoX]

But just a clarification, that's not what I meant. Yes, it's pro-town behavior, sure. But, it's an incredibly cheap and easy way to be pro-town, without sacrificing much as a scum. Yes?

hm... I'm not sure about this. But I wouldn't do this if I were scum personally because I'd be forcing my partner to post more as well, which is a bad thing for scums. Most scums would prefer to lurk as much as possible, especially newbie scums cause they are scared to make mistakes.

[XReyoX]

Reyo: given the post quoted above, can you clarify your position on whether lurking = scummy?

Lurking intentionally is scummy.

I'll have to re-read the thread. Falling behind.

[XReyoX]

Sorry, i was kind of lost when you guys started making all those huge posts. I have been putting most of my effort in mish mash as well.

Anyway, starting from #132.
Melchior- I agree with you that naybee might be reading too much into my push against lurkers. But I don't think he is trying to set me up for a lynch or anything. 1) because he is not vote me himself; 2) He would be better of agreeing with other people/ vote others who have already got votes on them. I don't see any benefit on the scum side for him to press on me. 3) Naybee, being a replacement, might not be able to get the feeling of how long we've been waiting in between the posts. When reading the whole thread in one go, it does make me look like I'm bashing lurkers every 5 mins.

#133
Kabenon- I don't think there is much to read from that post from MM23. It could a newbie misconception that MM23 thinks the only way to show he is participating in the game is to vote someone. Doesn't seems too scummy to me but his inactivity...

#135
Naybee- What made you think you were on L-1? I don't get where it'd have come from.

#136
Tony- how was melchior being opportunistic?

#138
Tony- could you clarified for me which were the ones that were a whole load of crap? the vote only or the bit you mentioned about who you think are scummy or not and what you think are valid or not, as well?

#139

Melchoir- What was the main thing that made you change your mind and unvote naybee at that time?

#141

The problem I have is that I think at most ONE of our two main lurkers will be teh mafmaf, since common strategy seems to involve a quiet partner and a seemingly active partner.

I don't necessarily agree with this theory, and it strikes me as a possible attempt to set up a chain lynch of the two lurkers.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean by chain lycnh of the 2 lurkers. I can see that only if he said at LEAST instead of at MOST.

#142
Melchoir- You said naybee is at the top of your list, then why aren't you voting him? You explained that you really don't want to lynch a possible townie but then you point out that even with your vote there, there wouldn't be enough for a lynch, so why did you bother unvoting? I fact that you were trying to count votes and see whether it is possible to get someone lynched is a bit suspicious to me.

#154
kabenon- I don't think ergo was trying to tie me up with tony. he is just pointing out that we both have been spending time dicussing about the same issue.

[XReyoX]

Re: 141 - by chain lynch, I mean that he could be trying to put us in a position where we lynch each lurker in turn on the basis that one of them must be scum. If they're both town then we'd lose the game by following this approach.

But he said at most not at least.

[XReyoX]

Tony- I know you've explained that the post was made while you were drunk. I'm wondering where it came from and was the "opportunistic" a complete nonsense you typed.

[XReyoX]

I don't have anything to say.

[XReyoX]

I cant believe he signed up so many games then left.

Ergo- Do you mean he was evasive in this game or are you referring to other games that he was in?

[XReyoX]

It seems more like he couldn't be bothered to play than being evasive.

[XReyoX]

Tony might need to be replaced as well. He has left i think cos he is replaced in another game I'm in.

[XReyoX]

hello dahill1

hello superfly

[XReyoX]

I'm dissapointed by the fact that this game is heading towards a lurkers vs lurker-hunters war, which is not giving me much information to work on. I'll do a re-read again this weekend, and hopefully will be able to spot something. Having so many newbies flaking didn't really help at all.

[XReyoX]

... actually, I don't really understand what tunnelvision is. Could someone explain it to me since everyone is using the word. I'm missing a whole lot out. Thanks.

[XReyoX]

Too much thinking?! Interesting logic, there... I'd just rather make a better-informed decision and minimise the risk of lynching a townie or even the Cop on the first go. If we can get at the Scum D1, then it puts us a long way ahead. Obviously.

Almost a cop claim? I'm trying to find my own way of logically going through this, but I'm probably failing horribly.

I don’t think that Tony was claiming cop. Instead I think he was making sure not to reveal his role so that the scum wouldn’t be able to rule out that he is a vanilla or a cop by mentioning both possibilities.

Right now, I only have very vague suspicions as to scum, townies and the cop. Nothing even remotely based on any concrete facts, or even anything that was expicitly said. A lot of it is based on my outlook on psychology, and probably not applicable to people with differing views.

I think speculating on who’s the cop is not necessary (if not scummy) at this point of the game.

I’ve singled out kabenon007 and did a re-read. The case superfly brought up seems reasonable not being created out of thin air as kabe’ve said. However, I don’t think unvoting a replacement is suspicious at all.

[XReyoX]

So, keeping your vote on a replacement and unvoting a replacement are both relatively common actions? Just trying to clarify.

It depends on the situation. I would consider both actions to be scummy if the person who is voting/unvoting seems to have a good lead of who he thinks is scum already. Otherwise, it's not a scumtell as far as I'm concerned. Its just that some people are more confortable with leaving a vote there while others are more happy to take it back.

[XReyoX]

When talking about having suspects, I don't really have one either at this point. Although I'm a little suspicious about MM23/dahill posts. They are really lack of contents.

[XReyoX]

So you think I've got better stuff to comment on?

[XReyoX]

I'm fear that superfly has left.

[XReyoX]

I dunno. But I haven't play a game like this. (referring to the non-scumminess).

[XReyoX]

I'm sorry but I have say that I'm confused by the whole argument between SF and Kab. SF was accusing Kab for tunnel visioning MM. But Kab was accusing SF for tunnel visioning him? And they are both accussing each other for twisting their words or quoting/ignoring each other posts?

I agree that Dahill only missed Kab's vote on SF is not a scumtell. Although skimming through the post can indicate someone is scum, the fact that even the mod missed his vote makes me think dahill didn't deserve the Fos.

[XReyoX]

OK, I’ll try to put myself together and clear this up in my head. Hopefully I’ll know what is going on after this. I’ll start from page 8 although I might have commented on some of the stuffs already so sorry if I’m repeating myself. This is for myself as well as for everyone else.

#192
Kab unvoted dahill – reason being dahill didn’t make what he called some bullshit argument.

Seems fine to me- not a scumtell I think.

#193

SF commented on the scumminess of lurker and lurker hunter.

I agree with that lurking in a particular game only is suspicious. Having tunnel vision but staying silent can also be suspicious.

SF then quoted a number of Kab’s posts, showing Kab was only targeting MM, proposing that Kab has tunnel vision, and is not very contributive.
SF “ MM is an easy target”

That’s true because a lurker can’t defend himself if he’s not here, obviously. But I don’t feel that Kab picked him because of this. Its not like MM will get lynch being of lurking, so I don’t see how a scum would benefit from that. We didn’t have much to go on until then so I dun think his attacks on MM were unreasonable.

SF accused Kab for having Tunnel vision.

I agree with that. However, I dun feel that it is as much as a scumtell as SF feels it is. If there were a lot more serious stuffs to go on or people were having a huge argument on something else when kab focuses on MM only, then I’d but more convinced that its really scummy.

#194
Kab “ I wasn't lurker hunting” “There were many other lurkers that I could have attacked much easier than Melody.”

I don’t get what you mean by you could have attacked easier targets. Could you please clarify it? If you weren’t voting for MM because he was lurking, so what were the reasons?

If the reason was because MM said he was going to put a vote on someone soon. Then I think that isn’t a very good reason to be suspicious of someone just because of that.

Kab “That really stinks, because I think he was scum and is just opting to check out instead of sticking around and taking it.”

How do you know he checked out the thread but decided not to post?

#195

I don’t understand the first bit. The reasons SF provided for going after Kab looks fine. I agree with him.

#197
Kab “my attack on Melody was not one based on lurking, but rather on what little he had posted.”

Huh? Doesn’t lurking = posting little?

#200
I agree with SF that kab was only focused on MM. I also agree that MM’s inactivity was not intentional. However, I don’t think Kab’s unvote was “damn suspicious”.
But I’d like Kab to explain what made all of his suspicions towards MM disappeared when he was replaced. From your post where you solidified your vote, it seems like you are very suspicious of MM. #133

#200
Kab” I could say it's tunnelvision how Reyo was going after lurkers in general, but you don't delve into that, do you?”

I have pushed very hard on the lurkers, but I don’t think i have tunnel vision. I’ve comment on many other things as well. Its just that the answers I received from the other questions I asked were satisfactory so I didn’t pursue further.

Kab” Why is it that this case was only brought up when Superfly came in? If it was so telling, why wasn't it brought up before? I see it as incoming scum finding something to lock onto and push for the lynch.”

I don’t think SF is pushing for a lynch. I feel that he thinks it is a lead for revealing whether you are scum. I don’t think the case is very telling. I didn’t even thought of it before SF came.. Well i didn’t even know what tunnel vision is..

#214

Kab “Fly's quoting was kind of sparse and only targetted what he wanted within a quote,

when taking it with the rest might change the meaning of the part he quoted

.”

Can you give me some example of these please, Kab.

#216

Kab “The only one I really did have any suspicions on was MM, what is wrong with that, it isn't tunnel vision if I was actively looking for other suspects, I just didn't see any.”

You can’t blame people for accusing you of tunnel vision because of that. Others can’t tell whether you are actively looking for other suspects or not if you don’t comment on them.
Example:
Player X attacks and comment on player Y only.
Player Z comes along and says player X has tunnel vision.
Player X: I don’t, I just don’t find other people scummy.
Proof?
#230
SF “I'm going to point out in an other game it was considered common courtesy to ask a replacement some comments about its predecessor, but I guess playstyles and games differ.”
I’m not sure but i think Kab did ask dahill to comment on MM.
I agree with SF to some extent that the reason kab unvoted MM/dahill is seems weaker than the reason he voted him.

#235
I don’t think every word should be held accountable as kab has said. What is important should be things that can have an influence on the vote or the lynch. Things like a missing out a post or minor mistakes that aren’t scumtell or things that wouldn’t do scum any good at all shouldn’t be held against someone.


I'll continue when i've got more time.

[XReyoX]

#233
I usually just read the whole thread in general and only single a particular person’s posts out if I find something suspicious. If you claim doctor, I’d claim vig.


#240
SF “You say that I quote selectively, but way to pick out one third of my argument and ignore the rest.”
Agree with this one.
Kab “You are picking and choosing what you want to talk about. I didn't say you were defending him, I asked why you hadn't attacked him. And he IS doing exactly the same thing I am, you cannot deny that, and if you do you are failing as a scum.”

No I am not doing the exact same thing. SF is accusing you about the unvote, attacking his minor points and twisting his words as well as having tunnel vision as far as I see it.

#241
Kab “Honestly people, all Superfly is doing now is repeating himself. He can't bring anything new to the table, so he ends every friggin post with CONFIRM VOTE:KABENON in different fonts and capital letters and with little frilly calligraphy crap.”

I think SF deserves more answers to his questions and confirming vote is not a scumtell.
I don’t think SF is repeating himself either.

#249
Kab “All scum HAVE to do is skim and find something they can jump on safely. So when a mistake like that occurs, I tend to follow it.”

I agree with that but judging that even the mod missed your vote. I don’t think dahill missing it as well is a tell.

#252
SF “No, you are twisting my words in a blatant and scummy manner, ignoring a large part of my arguments just so you can harp on about my one supposed "mistake".”

I agree that Kab is not answering some of your questions but where did he twist your words?

---

I think thats about it on the kab vs SF case. I find myself agreeing with SF most of the parts. In term of argument flaws, i think Kab hasn't put up a good case to defend himself or made me think SF is scum.

Tunnel vision: I don't think tunnel vision in itself alone is a scumtell. I think this behaviour is suspicious only if there are other major things going on but the person having tunnel vision only focuses on little things on one person. So no, I dun think kab is too suspicious because of that imo.

Kabs unvote: This is perhaps the only point I find Kab suspicious at the moment. The way he voted MM then solidified his vote gave me the impression that he is quite certain MM is scum. The reason why he unvoted dahill when he has joined seems somewhat weak in comparision with his vote. So,

Kab, 1) How strongly did you feel that MM was scum, according to that solidified vote of yours. 2) Was the fact that dahill didn’t concort some BS argument the sole reason for your unvote?

Ignoring bits of argument: I think that it is not a major scumtell although it is not a pro-town behaviour. I believe that it is more of a bad playstyle. You know, picking on the weak points to attack so that you seem to be winning. I suggest SF to posts the major points into questions so that Kab can not ignore/miss and vice versa.

Atm, i think the size of kab's wagon is more suspicious then kab himself. It seems like scum attacking an already weakened foe.

I’ll read more into melchoir’s posts next. He has made a huge post but I've only skimmed it through.

[XReyoX]

Hm... Kab. That doesn't justify the way you confirmed your vote on MM because the statement "The more confidence a person has, the better their arguments become" is an

illicit conversion

. A convincing agrument has to be put up by a confident person doesn't mean that a confident person can put up a good argument. If you are not so sure about MM's alignment and act as if you are, you can be misleading the town.

"reason my argument on SF kinda sucks, because I'm not so sure he is scum. " This is to me a

false cause

assumption. Not being sure of ones alignment doesn't result in a poor argument. It is the flaws/ scumtell that he has made.

[XReyoX]

Kab "I meant my argument, as in, how I'm presenting my case, sucks because my whole heart isn't in it"

Perhaps you should re-read the case and fill in the bits that you haven't replied or rephrase what you think others have mistaken you.

Kab" ...Yet we act as though we are. Why is that? It is to convince others that we are the ones in the right."

I don't think I do. If I'm a little suspicious of someone, I say I'm a little susicious of someone. If I'm very suspicious of someone, I say I'm very suspicious of someone. The thing I'm trying to say is if you act like you find someone very scummy when in fact you're still not sure, how are we supposed to know when later you find someone else more scummy?

[XReyoX]

Quick survey: of those not voting, who is considering voting for kabenon?

I'm not. But why do you what to know?

[XReyoX]

#207
Melchior “your comment on not voting for him as an OMGUS vote brought more of my attention to the fact that you aren't voting for him. Seemed like more a panic move by a scum trying to save his skin than a panic move a townie would do to save his skin to me.”

What the differences between the two? I dun get it.

#238
Melchior “another thing that I was curious about is Erg0. He is an IC, so a lot of what he posted I would expect to come from somebody in his position, but other than general theory and possible general pro/anti-town motivations I didn't see a lot of content for or against other people in the first 150 or so posts.”

Ergo seems to have suggested a few possible leads, its just that he didn’t pursue them further nor were they major scumtells. Seems alright to me. Accusing him because you expect him (an IC) to have better insights is a burden of proficiency. Though I’d like to hear more from him.

Melchior” Also, around the time that MM23 was replaced, you were talking about not objecting to putting pressure on his replacement (175 I believe), but you never really do so. In 181, you emphasize that point by stating that you want meaningful actions/comments from dahill1. Again, in 215 you comment on Kabenon's then lack of a suspect throughout the game other than MM23, but you're in the same position, and haven't really applied pressure to anyone that I could see that could raise or lower your suspicions. Care to respond to your thought process during this?”

Ergo, care to answer this?

#248
Melchoir“dahill1: They do, but since Kabenon's voting for Superfly, he either believes SF is scum and (Kabe) is pro-town, is mafia and is bussing SF, or is mafia and knows SF is pro-town. He's obviously trying to suggest that SF is anti-town with that remark, not that they don't read the thread.”

Kab was referring to dahill when he said scums don’t have to read the thread. The argument about whether scums read the thread has nothing to do with Kab’s vote or the alignment of Kab/SF. Those are irrelevant.

#262
Melchoir “Yes, you're providing more information than lurkers, but all of that information, unfortunately, is on somebody we have no way of getting a feel for.”

The is again an ignoratio elenchi. Whether you can get a feel for MM do not falsify the fact that Kab is providing more information to discuss on than a lurker. It is true that MM has left and therefore we cannot get a reply from him about how he feels about Kab’s attack/vote. But the accusations were made before he has left, therefore the info Kab has provided might have been more useful.

Melchoir “You never really tried to counter SFly's tunnel vision argument. You didn't ignore it, but you picked an odd way to try to answer it, by trying to make another person appear more scummy that (if you were reading the thread) had been generally seen as more pro-town than scum.”

I agree with that. Kab sounded like he was using syllogistic fallacy to defend himself by saying I have tunnel vision too.
#265
Kab ”Melchior, why are you wanting to wait for others opinions, have you no opinions of your own…”

I don’t think so, according to Melchior’s #238 and #256 and #262

#267
Kab ”I will direct you to post numbers, Melchior. I asked those questions before your big post”
No, I think it is after or in between?

#279
Naybee “Reyo mentioned something earlier about the size of the wagon being a point of concern? I agree. But I don't think the problem lies with either Melchior and Superfly? Both of them have posted colossal arguments of their own to support their vote. What concerns me more is dahill”

That was what I was thinking but I didn’t want to jump into conclusion because I haven’t read the whole thread through.

#280
Dahill “the first option included what you just said "Kab is pro-town and believes SF is scum", at least that's how i interpreted it
SF isn't necessarily scum, but kab might think he is”
Melchior was discussing the possible reasons why Kab is voting SF. This does not serve as a reason why Kab is scum. Whether SF is protown is irrelevant to Kab’s alignment. You haven’t stated why you are voting Kab, besides “that was forgetfulness on my part and a horrible reason to fos someone” #242

i agree with superfly

it was tunnel vision to go after just melodyman but i don't think that automatically makes him scum

as for lack of suspects

i think there have been no apparent scumtells so far

and there's pretty much nothing to go on since it's day one. what do you think?

Dahill, so you think tunnel vision wasn’t a scumtell before but it is now?

#282
Dahill “2) why is reyo hesitant on telling ergo”

I got a feeling that ergo is a scum trying to measure whether he should hammer or leave it to others so he’ll not get involved when/if kab turns out to be town. Just a possibility.

[XReyoX]

The obvious conclusion to be drawn is that kabenon and dahill are scumbuddies, and kab pulled his vote off because he didn't want to actually risk lynching dahill.

This would be more convincing if dahill was on L-1. The thing is MM has only got 2 votes. Although you are voting him, you openly declared that “MM23 just needs to post. His play so far suggests "busy" rather than "deliberately lurking", but that doesn't tell me anything about his alignment.” on #157 , meaning that you have no intention in lynching him. So I doubt he unvoted because of that since there wasn’t a risk I think.

Kab could be scum but i really don't think its the right time to hammer.

[XReyoX]

IC. It didn't get across when I first read. Somehow I read it as "I'm trying to gauge whether we should get a claim from kab prior to hammering".

[XReyoX]

I'll need some time to think whether it is beneficial for the the town if he claim. We don't have a doc here so the scum can NK anyone they want.

[XReyoX]

hm.... the thought i've got in my head is:

1) he claims townie- this doesn't prevent him from being lynch
2) he claims cop- we don't lynch him but the scum will NK him

This doesn't prevent him from dying.

[XReyoX]

reyo,
before i said it doesn't automatically make him scum
i didn't want to vote for him at first just for that, but now that there is tunnelvision and the other reasons i listed, i voted for him

What I've understand from your post is that 1) kab having tunnel vision doesn't make him scum. 2) there are no apparently no scumtell so far.
Therefore, tunnel vision is not a scumtell as far as you concern.

You haven't stated what "the other reasons" are as well. Are you agreeing with everything SF and melchior said?

[XReyoX]

I'm thinking maybe it is best not to claim.. I don't know, thats why i asked.

If a cop claim automatically means he'll be kill, then its not very beneficial to force him to do so.

[XReyoX]

I see. I think the best thing would be:

If someone is considering to hammer a person and the sole reason that would prevent him from doing so would be his claim, then I'd suggest asking for it. Otherwise, it would be useless and we run the risk of exposing the cop. Knowing who the cop is give no benefit to the town, at least for now.

???

[XReyoX]

to me, tunnelvision by itself isn't scum tell but combined with other scummy things it adds to my suspicion

Combined with what? Lots of non-scumtell put together doesn't become a scumtell.

[XReyoX]

I wouldn't say its a contradiction exactly, but rather weak reasons.

1) "tunnel vision" He has said that its not really a scumtell.
2) "suspicious behaviour of attack you(Kab)." It was only a FoS. *cry*
3) "your attack of SF because he thinks SF is protown." *cry again* I've explained this one already. And others have pointed out that both of you can be protown.

He didn't actually state what he is agreeing with and why he thinks SF is protown. The timing of the vote seems somewhat opportunistic to me.

I'm leaning towards the first or third option...

You know, like picking a reason to jump on...

[XReyoX]

291) !?!?!?!?!?! That's the oddest defense I think I've ever seen. I'm not even sure I can call it a defense, but I don't know what else to call it. There are so many more options than what you've presented that it's not even funny. And your last sentence basically reads to me like "anyone who looks/votes for me from now on is scum" is a huge what-the-hell statement. I don't even know where to start on that one. I might come back to it soon if I feel I can express how many things are wrong there.

I wasn't defending anything at all. Just wondering how beneficial it is for kab to claim. I was having lunch at that time when I made my previous post, saw Erg0 a few minutes later, so I just post that #291 in the hope I'd get an immediate reply. check the posting times in between

Those 2 were the first scenario came in my mind. I was looking at this post from erg0 "whether we should get a claim from kabenon right now to prevent him from being hammered prior to claiming" and I just thought "he's going to die whatever he claims to be so what's the point?"

You saw where I'm going in the later post anyway.

My fault, and I'll try to treat you like equals from now on

you thought I'm scum?

[XReyoX]

I'm waiting for a detailed post from dahill explaining his reasons. I'm not satisfied. I still feel that he is going with the flow.

[XReyoX]

Looks more like attacking Kab's bad playstyle rather than pointing out scumtells to me. Sounds fibricated.

I think I know who I'm going to vote but I'm not doing it till the last moment.

So at the meantime,

Unvote:SF

[XReyoX]

Ergo, I'm leaning towards voting dahill. However I feel that it is not the right time to vote.

You were on him without much of a reason and it doesn't seems like you are very suspicious of him. While on the other hand Kab and naybee have shown to be suspecting him. I just don't think its a good idea to vote him now since not everyone has given us their thoughts on dahills response.

[XReyoX]

Sorry, I might not be able to post until monday. away.

[XReyoX]

Sorry. Got some personal issues to deal with recently and hasn't been in good shape to read things through properly. To be honest, I'd like to be replaced awhile ago already.

I'm going to

vote:dahill

, my primary suspect. If anyone has any accussation against me, please posts them soon so that I can get them over with, and please make them like bullet point questions if you can. Really do not want to read anymore.

Mod:

May I be replaced during the night, or earlier. Thanks . The reason for the leave is nothing do with the game itself mod. It has been a great game:(

[XReyoX]

SF was fattony right? I don't think he is scum. Just didn't bothered to unvote him eariler. Didn't have a real suspect until i did that.

On a scale of 1-14 where 1 is definately scum and 14 is town, kab is 6, while dahill is 3, i feel.

Nothing to say about that. It can both an newbie and a scummy act. I took them as scummy act more and I don't feel he has been trying to read the game throughly. I've discussed about some of the issues he has pointed out as scumtell against kab but he just ignored them/not putting them in his argument.