Newbie 1767 | Winter | Endgame

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Huntress

the worst game I ever played...

[Raskolnikov]

Mmmmm

[Raskolnikov]

Actually

VOTE: TheBrie

[Raskolnikov]

Hello, new person here.
VOTE: Loopdan

I get a hint of LAMISN here
a word I may or may not have just made up which means look at me I'm so new

[Raskolnikov]

What'd you get that impression from, the fact that he says he's new? Or the fact that his account has existed for about 10 days...?

From the post. Nothing wrong with being new, but scum sometimes emphasize it on purpose to appear harmless.

[Raskolnikov]

@Frederick

Read the IC post about RVS. Gist of it is, at the beginning there's 0 info and people have to snowball usually weak reasons or "vibes" there into more serious ones later to get the game rolling.
Basically I rvs'd, got bored and did a closer retake for something interesting.

[Raskolnikov]

@Huntress-- You had a choice of putting the third vote on either Selynee or me. Why'd you go with the more experienced player?

Your wagon started first.

Hello, new person here.
VOTE: Loopdan

I get a hint of LAMISN here
a word I may or may not have just made up which means look at me I'm so new

That was more of: I'm terrible at introductions, but had to say something.

Brie feels self-conscious here.

[Raskolnikov]

wrong quote

[Raskolnikov]

Huntress can you go into detail on your echovision read?

[Raskolnikov]

Ooh, somebody voted for me. But not the person I voted for. Probably that person could tell I'm innocent. I mean I must be innocent. I'm so not worried that I forgot this existed for a couple of days.

Are you nervous?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: TheBrie

Unvote; Vote: TheBrie

Why do you two think that TheBrie is scummy?

What do YOU think about TheBrie?

[Raskolnikov]

His questions mean nothing, and he is clearly soft defending Brie here on this page.

Just to be clear, you're implying a brie scumread as well here? The suggestion being defending thebrie is bad.

[Raskolnikov]

And now that three people have voted for me I'm a little nervous, because I'd rather not die just yet.

This admittance is actually pretty town.

[Raskolnikov]

TheBrie confusion she's expressing now reads genuine even if a bit awkward.

Was still fidgety on entrance but that's not necessarily scum-indicative here.

Definitely starting to look game-solvey.

[Raskolnikov]

Happy with my vote staying on Frederick. I feel like he's not trying to scumhunt, just trying to appear active. His questions mean nothing, and he is clearly soft defending Brie here on this page.

With all this activity, why are you still voting Huntress?

My posts earlier were trying to get the game moving. My vote is still on Huntress because I still can't figure out who's scum.

If you're trying to figure things out you sure are being stealthy about it.

I just used my

1-shot Game Solve Attempt

.

Once a game you can message the mod and they will confirm or deny your guess at the scum-team. You have to get both partners right or they just say "You are wrong." So like you can't just get partial credit for knowing one scum player.

It's rare to use it this early but I thought I'd give it a try. Penguin confirmed I nailed it and he should be along soon to lock up the thread and post the game ending. But we can continue to talk during this twilight period.

gg

I'm town. I'm willing to give the wages for nonsense like this.
VOTE: Loopdan
I've got a heavy schedule every Tuesday(my time zone is GMT+8) from now on since school has reopened. So, I'll be getting reads and answering questions tomorrow.

Taking issue with something is one thing but this reads more like voting loop for saying something unusual rather than a judgement about how or why he did it.
Latter part of post implies you're getting reads tomorrow which implies this isn't really a scumread? Are you trying to "figure things out" or doing busywork?

OMGUS actually's okay in the context though.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't even know what's happening in this game anymore... Fuck brie <3 love you
VOTE: Brie

UNVOTE:
obvious joke is obvious. sorry mod i'm a pain in your ass <3

Yeah IDK about this l-1 bro

[Raskolnikov]

Sens decided to hop on a wagon for Brie putting her at L-2(I believe) with absolutely no explanation. Yeah shit like that happens, but this struck me as very odd. The most suspicious thing for me was right after Loopdan used his fake guess shit. Sens said, "Wow. Guess that's that. Nice job loopdan." He didn't even bother reading the wiki or anything about it. He seemed so eager to end the game but didn't say anything at all about the whole thing and how ridiculous it seemed. He was just way way WAY too eager to put the game to an end. I'm on my way home now, so I'll post the rest of my findings later. For now,

VOTE: SensFan

How do you put theBrie l-1 on also nothing and then have a problem with sens earlier l-2 vote?

Looks like after you got called out on your vote you went to look at who did similar to do the same. IDK how as town you could literally just have done the same thing THEN you scumread sens off of it without noticing at all...
Is the cognitive dissonance not obvious even to a newbie here?

He seemed so eager to end the game but didn't say anything at all about the whole thing and how ridiculous it seemed. He was just way way WAY too eager to put the game to an end.

And this looks like hardcore exaggeration and twisting of a pretty short post of sens.

How are you this super confident on the judgement given what you've actually said?
The l-2 vote when you yourself l-1'd and a "Nice job loopdan" is a huge mismatch for this conclusion you're trying to bring out of it and I can't possibly see how what you say would've brought you to that read.
I feel like this confidence is being faked here and this post is trying to make sens look bad on BS.

VOTE: Echo

[Raskolnikov]

Exactly. You should know that there's nothing like that that would ever exist. Even if your join date was yesterday, you should know that. It's just way to overpowered and it shouldn't exist. That's why when you were so quick to jump on to the "good game, games over" train it raised many red flags for me.

Why's it bad for sensfan and not loopdan himself?

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm, huntress could actually be with echo if I'm right.

First impression is retroactively the votes good just for being on echo, but when she made it (28) it didn't make sense given he only just rvs'd/entranced...

@ Echo:

Have you ever been mafia before? If you have, can you give me a link to the game please?

This as somewhat decent distancing isn't out of the question, not beyond huntress at least.

[Raskolnikov]

Like I was implying... it usually works better on newbies than SE's.

I was hoping to see how TheBrie (the only brand new player here), reacted to a third vote on the wagon she joined. But that train has left the station now.

Selynee had already seemed to be unconcerned about a couple of votes on herself.

Fred looked a bit self-conscious about the wagon, first ignoring it, then querying it, and lastly downplaying it's value.

I agree with Rask on TheBrie.

I've got an odd feeling about Echo. He may be scum.

Vote: EchoVision

Actually, given each of these the echo choice is odd given huntress herself describes fred as she did and agreed with me on thebrie. Seems like the weakest thing there so I don't see how it translated into being the vote?

Huntress?

[Raskolnikov]

@Fredrick-- Why do you believe post 95 is more likely to come from scum than town?

I still want an answer to this.
VOTE: Fredrick

What could town possibly do with a post like that? From what I see, the answer is plenty though. It has sparked up conversation, and of course makes analysis much more easier. But then, what was your intent?

But why does scum do it either? He'd know it'd call some attention on him especially in a newbie game I'd think.

Did it not cross your mind it could've been partially messing around or hyperbole rather than a serious claim of a role that obviously doesn't exist?

I could see how it could be hard because loopdan did say he scumreads you and thebrie and it's awkward to tell exaggeration when it appears to be mostly based on a serious view he's pushing though.

Would you have reacted differently if he called a different team?

[Raskolnikov]

Frederick/Brie scum-team

Lock up the thread and hit the Newbie Queue for your next /in.

Rask is right. Echo's 125 is terrible.

What's so bad about that post?

Did you not see my post about it?

[Raskolnikov]

Frederick's kind of asking questions but not seeming to make any judgement or conclusions, even the loopdan vote doesn't necessarily seem like a read.

Comparatively theBrie's has a stance on pretty much everyone and even lucca's probably conveyed more in a lot less posts.

[Raskolnikov]

@Selynee what are your thoughts so far?

[Raskolnikov]

I'm aware of his onsite game and have already read it, and noted the difference in his play so far here. It's too soon to really tell based on that. But that is not what I was asking him about. Why did you feel the need to respond to a question that was addressed directly to him, not to you?

Really?

Was this before the game, or in rvs, or...?

[Raskolnikov]

Fair enough, I missed that he had his second post by then.

[Raskolnikov]

Don't hammer today please, I'm going to get back to this game tomorrow

[Raskolnikov]

Well that could've gone a lot worse I guess.

Still, wanted to see a little more first there, still had lots of time till deadline left there.

[Raskolnikov]

Because I was pretty much useless D1 and didn't vote (though I wanted to vote Echo), my starting vote is going to be pretty risky, but I guess at this point a 50-50 read is worth it.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

I really hope you didn't just do what I think you did...

[Raskolnikov]

Actually nvm.

[Raskolnikov]

So sensfan did they hammer without claim back in 2007?

I know it was my push and it all worked out fine but surely you should know that could've gone so wrong.

[Raskolnikov]

I mean I'm not exactly up to date on my ancient site meta history but cmon. Newbie game.

[Raskolnikov]

Well, moral of the story is people make mistakes all the time in newbie queue.

Hmmmm

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure I like how you ask lucca about it as if it was partially her fault though

"hold on and wait" really doesn't seem malicious and arguing it was intended to get the hammer down doesn't sound fair.

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm

Well enough about the hammer. Sensfan what're your thoughts now?

[Raskolnikov]

@Fred-- I was focused on sorting Brie.

If by sorting me you mean helping me realize that people could really think I was guilty, or just trying to read me by my reactions, then thank you. I needed that.

Actually, what's your take on all of that now?

[Raskolnikov]

Brie's picked up a fair bit since her wagon, though I'm not 100% yet.

[Raskolnikov]

Frederick/Brie scum-team

Lock up the thread and hit the Newbie Queue for your next /in.

Rask is right. Echo's 125 is terrible.

What's so bad about that post?

So this might sound strange, but what exactly was your problem with the echo wagon?

You seemed to disagree with it without even knowing what it was. Which I don't quite get.

[Raskolnikov]

Not sure huntress is the way to go, moreso than her I'm interested in frederick and sens here.

She definitely played a subdued role d1 but I don't think huntress play has anything necessarily malicious in it either. Gutread is hard to analyse but she didn't seem in any rush to end that day either.
Brief meta skim has her pretty lurky in general so I don't think that's even NAI tbh. Can wait and see the analysis she says she has coming up.

[Raskolnikov]

Regarding d1 wagon huntress's stance doesn't really stand out, first vote and mostly given as gutread. Her point on echo's 2nd post looking like defending thebrie made sense too.

Sensfan otoh did seem pretty confident hammering though I didn't hear that much of his own analysis there. Seems justified via a mix of an association per echo seeming to bus/partner-tell with theBrie, and what I pointed out in my case. Though there is the potential it was partially motivated via sens happening to be the one echo scumread, definitely could see a reason scum sens would've wanted to end the day when he did. Kind of light on the info given all the posts.

Frederick's is a weird case too, I get the feeling he wrote off echo a bit too fast. He seemed to not really consider echo-scum as a possibility without even yet reading why people scumread him, if that makes sense. It's possible he's just indecisive in general or lacking in awareness but it doesn't look like he was really phased about it either.
In that position I'd be pretty interested in finding out exactly what the case was on him if I didn't know, but he didn't really give any judgement that suggested he understood or tried considering it. Given he didn't put that much into defending him, it's possible as scum he just wanted a bit of towncred along with not being the wagon as it went through.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Frederick

This probably gives more than a sens wagon.

[Raskolnikov]

I had no reason to think Exho was scum. I didn't have much reason to think he was town either.

So you read everything and just walked away neutral to it all? Nothing was worth commenting on?

Even still I didn't see you really push loopdan lynch over echo which I'd kind of expect if you were whatever on echo but scumread loop.

[Raskolnikov]

No impressions now either, given it's day 2?

Who do you think is scum?

[Raskolnikov]

...where is everyone

[Raskolnikov]

@rasko, now that we know Echo's flip, how do you read his wagon? I'm trying to do it, and is only making me more paranoid.

Probably not more than one scum on the wagon I'd imagine. As of now I'm thinking likely sens over huntress or especially thebrie but I want to see to see how sens answers today first.

[Raskolnikov]

Still waiting for an answer to my question.

[Raskolnikov]

But also feel free to go into why you scumread sensfan too.

I don't really disagree with that as a read but if it's your largest scumread it should be pretty easy for you to explain why.

[Raskolnikov]

Lucca's shown a lot more evidence of scumhunting than fred and votes him with me to boot.

Huntress I can get but you should meta-skim too and see how lurking is pretty standard for her, if you have something beyond activity for that I'd want to hear it though.

Can you share what makes you so confident on sens town?

[Raskolnikov]

Need more votes on fred. Still don't have an answer to 266, but I know he'd have saw it because he answered about the senfan read. 294 is right beside 295.

As for the answer this more or less seems like his loopdan vote d1 as in a vote for the sake of voting. Reads feel puddle-deep, given he just brings up actions people did and essentially describes them without going further. He never explains what makes any particular thing actually alignment indicative to him or analyses into anything past the surface.

Thread interaction seems limited to things concerning himself as well, he asks questions but never mentions the answers he got which is a classic tell that someone isn't actually interested.

[Raskolnikov]

I know I was wrong on echo but I think this one's scum.

[Raskolnikov]

I think 297 still holds for me atm regarding lucca.

I'd be interested in seeing where sensfan and huntress do decide to vote today given we're a fair chunk of the way through.

[Raskolnikov]

After lucca261 mentioned he wished more follow up to my questions, I've been following them up. Not replying to the later questions doesn't mean I didn't use them to guess the player's alignment.

Okay, maybe you have, who knows. Nothing's for certain.

But it's hard to believe you are using truly that information if you never, ever, mention it. When I look and try to guess what's behind the veil, either there's nothing there, or there is but for some reason you're just keeping everything to yourself even after so many requests for explanation. As a rule, I'm going to assume the former until shown otherwise. Yes, it's impossible to know for sure what's going on if there's zero transparency. But if you're actually doing all the consideration you say you are then merely putting it down to words is the simplest thing in the world.

This is also the third time I'm going to ask for a response on 266.

[Raskolnikov]

Catching up.

[Raskolnikov]

Your attitude? I'm sick of it.

Vote: Fred

.

Attitude or the vote being on you?

I agree with sick on this one, you've so far mostly reacted to those who've been on you and kind of ignored those who haven't.

I'm not sure how to reconcile your play altogether here with your joindate tbh, d1-end particularly.

[Raskolnikov]

Since people have bugged me to pass my reads...
Sickofit1138: Town for being attempting to guess who's scum.
Huntress: Someone like me. I'm nullreading Huntress.
TheBrie: Seems to be more likely than not to be town. A definite townread.
Loopdan: Trying to sherlock the game. Awarded a townread.
Raskolnikov: Trying to sherlock the game as well. Awarded a townread.
SensFan: Mysterious hammer and mysterious read. A scumread.
lucca261: Seems trying to solve the game. A townread.

How much game experience do you actually have?

Does it not bother you that you only have 1 scumread and 1 null? Are you confident on all of your townreads?

[Raskolnikov]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=69287

Only game to really judge this off of is this one. Seems like he was wagoned very early, almost hammered but it got diverted last minute.

Trying to think of what's AI vs stylistic.

[Raskolnikov]

Frederick, this might seem like a weird question, but how old are you? Don't have to answer if you don't want to.

[Raskolnikov]

Your attitude? I'm sick of it.

Vote: Fred

.

Attitude or the vote being on you?

I agree with sick on this one, you've so far mostly reacted to those who've been on you and kind of ignored those who haven't.

I'm not sure how to reconcile your play altogether here with your joindate tbh, d1-end particularly.

As far as I can tell, SickOfIt's vote has never been on me. Though I can see why it might look like that first part was directed at Fred when removed from the fact it was right after SOI's post.

You can agree with Sick all you want. The fact remains I have been paying 'attention' to people, especially Fred, well before the suspicion on me. Sick has this weird thing where he assigns the causation of an event to something that happened after the event. He did it when he mentioned that lucca started distancing with me as a reaction to Sick calling us both Scum, and is doing it again by saying I'm pushing Fred because he pushed me.

283 you have TheBrie at super raw which makes it hard for you to read her and fred/selynee/me as people you don't have a good grasp on.

Since then fred voted you and sickofit replaced in and called you scummy and you reacted pretty strongly to both of them but haven't said a word regarding me or thebrie. This is why I think sick might have a point here.

[Raskolnikov]

And I'm buying that his uncounted hammer was intentionally messed up to extend the day.

I extremely doubt this is what his intention was there.
First off I think MOST rulesets would count the hammer as a hammer anyways under the interpretation rule (where anything that clearly looks like it was intended to be a vote counts as a vote, to prevent hammer sillyness), this game included if I read it right.

Second it looks like even sensfan himself isn't saying this wasn't the case so yeah?

[Raskolnikov]

Better or worse doesn't even necessarily enter into it, it's behavioral and you can generally expect some standards in due-diligence town play you wouldn't from someone with a new or seminew joindate.

[Raskolnikov]

No, that was mostly regarding your hammer. Try to keep up.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm not sure how to reconcile your play altogether here with your joindate tbh, d1-end particularly.

I just realized I never commented on your point about my join date. Read what you want into it; I make no claims in general that people who have been here longer are any better or worse than newer players. Worth noting that until a couple weeks ago, my most recent game was Mini 1337 though, for however that affects your view on my experience.

Better or worse doesn't even necessarily enter into it, it's behavioral and you can generally expect some standards in due-diligence town play you wouldn't from someone with a new or seminew joindate.

Better or worse doesn't even necessarily enter into it, it's behavioral and you can generally expect some standards in due-diligence town play you wouldn't from someone with a new or seminew joindate.

Due diligence like contradicting someone by claiming I haven't said something that I very much explicitly did say?

Mmm.

[Raskolnikov]

You think that was discrediting loopdan?

Loopdan townreads you because he thinks you intentionally mispelled the hammer to get a reaction or something.

Is that the case or am I right in saying it isn't?

[Raskolnikov]

It's one or the other.

[Raskolnikov]

How does that even work when it'd generally be considered a valid vote anyways?

[Raskolnikov]

7. Votes that misspell or have other minor errors will be counted as normal as long as I understand what you are getting at.

This is the norm and not unusual. He was hammered at that point regardless even if no one said anything.

Are you saying you're unaware of this?

[Raskolnikov]

Actually WTF

Even if that was true
If you wanted to react test to see if scum would point out your hammer was misdone that would imply thinking echovision was town WHILE lynching him

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sensfan

Unless I hear a good explanation for this one.

[Raskolnikov]

I said that your play didn't seem to match your join date. That I'd generally expect more due diligence than to quickhammer d1 without claim.

Your argument is it's hypocritical because I didn't do my due diligence? First off your ISO isn't exactly easy to read, and back at day start 235 gave me the impression you did just intend to hammer and not intentionally-mispell-to-reaction-test. Even then I'd consider the two very different things and comparing something like this to hammering d1 without claim as intellectually dishonest.

We can quibble about if lack of bold text constitutes a "minor error". It's not super relevant. I certainly wasn't sure if it would be counted. Admittedly, much of my experience does come from an Era where the norm was that nonbolded votes weren't counted.

"Not super relevant"
Okay, even if I assume because of era etc etc you thought the vote wouldn't be counted I still don't see how this makes any sense??

You want to lynch someone, you're helping lynch them, you think they're scum, so much so that you don't care to see a claim. "No claim would've change my mind!"
At the same time you intentionally mess up your vote as a reaction test to see who would correct you, presumably scum. It happens, you get corrected, at which point you do correct the vote and hammer, which even if you believed didn't count before it does now. Then you go into next day pinning it on lucca for "well she knew what would happen!".

If your test is to catch scum pointing out your mistake and you thought it wasn't a real hammer why would you THEN real hammer when someone does do this? How would any of this actually work?

[Raskolnikov]

I was wrong in missing where you said that, yes, your post justifying the hammer strongly gave me the impression you did just mean to hammer him.
It's this reaction thing that's troubling now, that you were at that point sure enough to lynch him without claim but at the same time wanting to catch someone being opportunistic? I don't follow how you were that convinced he's scum and then think you should do this to try to catch scum trying to mislynch him at the same time.

If the point was to see if scum would point out the mispell how do you then comfortably hammer when it happens (when presumably you thought the vote didn't count before)? Wouldn't that just be going along with their wish if it was scum pointing it out maliciously?

I think it's way more likely an intentional mispell and then hammer after someone corrects you comes from a scum mindset knowing echo was town and thinking ahead to discredit from it next day than someone actually confident in their lynch to the point of ending the day early and without caring to see their claim. I thought "you forced my hand" towards lucca was dodgy already but now that you're saying you kind of knew that would happen too, that responsibility would be shared with whoever pointed it out? Why is your mind even here if you were convinced echo was scum? Not only that, I don't see how this is even supposed to work as a reaction test and how pointing it out would be all that AI...

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:

Still wanna think about this. See if he'll have an explanation.

[Raskolnikov]

Alright I'm here. Been kind of out of it for a while.

[Raskolnikov]

Sensfan explanation is okay I guess? I wish he could've explained it like that thoroughly right away at the beginning instead of having to be hounded for it and put in a life-or-death situation. It also assumes he's telling the truth about not knowing that it counted when mispelled which is kind of a gray area.

I'm still not convinced on him overall, though I doubt another wagon would achieve anything new either. If he could post with that level of detail and transparency more often that'd be great though.

[Raskolnikov]

Now as for wagonomics and VCA shenanigans, ordinarily I'd dismiss them out of hand. I've found more often than not it's those kind of assumptions that create a "natural" tendency for town to self-destruct.

Could see it here though. Out of every player, I'm only convinced sickofit really knew what I was talking about and "followed" the train of thought. Which I guess is okay for those who were off (not following and being off seems consistent enough) but I'm not sure lucca fully understood what he was agreeing with when he l-1'd. Fred's stance is lost to time, newbies off-wagon is I can't fault I guess, loop and huntress as the experienced dismissed it pretty quick. I guess it's possible that I just read too far into it too rather than being the only sane/lucid person, either's happened before a few times now...

[Raskolnikov]

As for frederick, my problem with him was primarily shallow reads and inactivity.
Shallow reads I assume was the case because despite claims to the contrary, neither my nor anyone's questions were answered to any degree beyond one-liners. The only question then being if the shallow reads are from scum vs town; as for the meta on this even though he did the exact same thing as town he was cop in that game so I'm not sure if it even counts?
Inactivity is more of a statistical tell, lurking being bad up until replace at which point it becomes complicated. In a normal game I'd consider the reason for replacing... E.g. if someone says they're busy with work, replaces out all their games, in that case it's perfectly understandable and retroactively explains their inactivity; even if I thought the lurking was bad before that'd make it NAI. But here, there wasn't all that much reason for it, the timing coincided with being wagoned, and I think in newbie games statistically scum replace more often than town too. Overall a somewhat damning replace.

[Raskolnikov]

Sobolov, top scumread?

[Raskolnikov]

Agree with Loopdan that some of Rasks vote moving

was weird

and I think some of it is not wanting to be associated with a townie lynch on me or SensFan. Still a very hard player to read.

I don't know why everyone is reading TheBrie as newbtown. I think some of her early activity was

pretty odd

. Recently she's been slightly better but would like to see more positive content here.

Yes, how weird. How odd. Can you say why?

Also I suppose you must know a lot about me if you can make conclusions about how easy or hard I am to read.

[Raskolnikov]

Makes me worried that we're being led around by a very clever scum.

Would say lucca followed by SickOfIt (but not both)

How does this work?

On one hand you express a fair bit of paranoia here but on the other you're not so much focusing on them SE/ICs.

[Raskolnikov]

I've also got a lot of uncertainty about you, Loopdan, and TheBrie

When I have uncertainty with people I do something about it.

[Raskolnikov]

Well, people can become the center of attention. It's not some natural uncontrollable phenomenon. I believe that's an excuse that only really works while one is not in a game.

[Raskolnikov]

Is there a reason you aren't voting either of your scumreads?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Sobolev

Sobolev's not terrible but hasn't given me much reason to believe she's town to counteract the slot, especially the replace out.

Could do sensfan instead but there doesn't seem to be much support for it.

[Raskolnikov]

Idk how to read replacing into a wagoned slot and electing to hold vote until you're more sure.

[Raskolnikov]

Brie what's your sensfan read based on?

[Raskolnikov]

I have a feeling this is a fakeclaim.

TheBrie I think you should hammer before any PRs out themselves to CC.

You're also right in that even if it was true (it isn't), outed BP serves no utility so there's no reason not to.

[Raskolnikov]

Lucca hammer her fast

we need radio silence

every reaction which isn't a hammer is claiming not-cc and therefore leaking info...

[Raskolnikov]

I think I understand.

Okay, I "soft" cc sobolev, though I won't say with what.

Now next person capable of hammering absolutely MUST do so.

[Raskolnikov]

Oh hey that was a lie
It looked like you were softing so I thought I could try to CC "for you" by proxy

[Raskolnikov]

So like, if there's BP they could claim because they've already been shot and they'll be confirmed town via no CC
Doctor I'm not as sure about what's optimal there.

[Raskolnikov]

But if I dont retract then real pr will out...

[Raskolnikov]

Well anyways

VOTE: Huntress

Seemed to try to setup associations with frederick early on yesterday, starting in 378 the moment she voted him

Also in 28 said essentially fred's entrance was scummy af but voted echo on a gut feeling

[Raskolnikov]

I would argue, if BP exists, no death n1 implies BP was hit n1 and therefore scum would already be aware of who it is, so them claiming only gives town information.

[Raskolnikov]

I've won many games through speculation and cooperation, what do you have to show for yourself?

[Raskolnikov]

Okay look, if it's incorrect you can argue why it's incorrect. You can't dismiss everything out of hand and just shut down discussion completely.

The fake was definitely unorthodox but it would looked really sick if it worked and I think if you run that in 10 or so games it'll work more often than not, even the downside is low because I retracted as you're supposed to when the gambit fails.

[Raskolnikov]

I would argue, if BP exists, no death n1 implies BP was hit n1 and therefore scum would already be aware of who it is, so them claiming only gives town information.

Scum knows who they targeted N1, but scum doesn't know if their target was BP or if a doc made a save. If there is a doc they need to save that player again tonight, as scum will try to hit them again in case it was the BP.

Or am I missing something?

My bad, I thought scum already knew if it was bp setup or doc setup for some reason.

[Raskolnikov]

Can I get some thought on huntress?

It's early but I fail to see a good alternative really, loopdan and sens pushed fred from even d1 so it's not like they hopped and a hardbus is rare enough to rule out in the majority of cases.
Brie and lucca both held similar positions hovering around the hammer spot (I don't think it's that unlikely thebrie could've hammered instead so thinking of it as brie-off lucca-on doesn't seem fair either), but didn't seem to play in any way to look good or to plan ahead and make others look bad for it.

Huntress I can some weirdness in her d1 priorities, pointing out the thing about fred early but not really focusing on it and then d2 she tried to setup associations when she did vote him.

[Raskolnikov]

@Sensfan

Maybe this is another "I haven't played since 2008" thing, but in meta nowadays people WILL either miss or disregard most warnings and disclaimers and just CC. I know I would at least, but in a newbie too there's the inexperience factor too. Remember echovision forgetting to see or disregarding your "I will hammer next post if there's no claim" if you will.

[Raskolnikov]

I think the partner is between Brie and Huntress. Thoughts?

Yeah. Logically brie could fit because she did l-1 and back off, but I don't scumread thebrie much overall anymore. Around the end of the day thebrie actually retracted a lot of her scumread onto you lucca, which I don't see much scum motivation for. I think if frederick wagon died down you were probably the next in line so I'm not sure why she'd do that.

[Raskolnikov]

This is stupid, a "50-50" read is an expression not a role crumb. Not from a new player like selynee anyways, if we're arguing that a newbie advance crumbed in their first game.

At the time I made the same mistake, though I thought it was a jailkeeper save, but now I know it's not true because it simply doesn't make sense with tracker.

I believe selynee misunderstood her role; the most likely is she had 3 scumreads, she tracked one of these and got a "no-result" but interpreted it as as innocent. Then in her remaining pool was me and another which is probably why she took a shot in the dark with that read.

[Raskolnikov]

Sickofit's play also doesn't match that. Taking one of selynee's few posts and equating it with sickofit's entire ISO is at best somewhat naive cherrypicking if it isn't being done out of malice. It's a very dangerous thing to boot.

[Raskolnikov]

For starters, if sickofit tracked me to someone I'd imagine he'd have been a little more suspect of me.

But also if a tracker actually did track a positive result, they'd as a minimum have a confirmed town in who was visited; they should have an townread on that person as well which should strictly be stronger than the one onto me. But sickofit was kind of all over the place in reads and I only remember a strong townread on thebrie.

[Raskolnikov]

Every game I've lost has been when people followed PR and speculation arguments and theories over legitimate reads. Whether they originate from scum or town varies but the result doesn't.

[Raskolnikov]

Now the real danger is if I get lynched and doctor gets killed, because doctor save is confirmed town and that would get permanently lost.

If town, and I don't think that's huntress included atm, really believes this is the case and would risk the game on it, then the logical way forward is for doctor to out themself and their result (especially if it's me) so we're working with full information.

[Raskolnikov]

Loopdan, of the other players who do you think is most likely to be scum?

[Raskolnikov]

town!Rasko wouldn't have rescinded the soft PR claim.

This is false. The point of that gambit is to bait the nk for that specific night and prevent CCs as-of-then. It failed in the former sense and retraction was 100% necessary on remaining alive as having the actual pr claim entirely defeats the purpose.

[Raskolnikov]

Granted it's irrelevant now anyways because I'm being pushed on speculating of the PR stuff that'll require outing anyways to (hopefully) disprove the assumptions being made.

[Raskolnikov]

I believe selynee misunderstood her role; the most likely is she had 3 scumreads, she tracked one of these and got a "no-result" but interpreted it as as innocent. Then in her remaining pool was me and another which is probably why she took a shot in the dark with that read.

Show us textual evidence of this theory.

How am I supposed to know what was going through her head?

I can't explain something I'm not sure of myself... I know I'm town and I can only speculate as to this. Either she misunderstood something or it's not a crumb, one or the other, idk what else to say.

[Raskolnikov]

I can only hope that with more info out it'll shed some light on what actually happened.

[Raskolnikov]

Read accuracy is the responsibility of the reader, not the person being read. I've given my 2 cents but I can't crack the enigma code and know something I physically can't. All I can do is speculate but if I'm not sure what happened I can't prove what I don't know.

[Raskolnikov]

What I'm saying is that you are either doc or scum.

And that assumption is pretty much the issue we have here.

[Raskolnikov]

Sorry to disappoint but I'm flipping town. /shrug

[Raskolnikov]

What a farce.

[Raskolnikov]

"you have to be scum because you can't explain this thing!"

Okay, massclaim and we can maybe find out what happened.

"Uhhhhh uhhhh well, just in case, well you can never be certain..."

Which narrative is it?

[Raskolnikov]

*whistle*

[Raskolnikov]

At least have the conviction to hammer if we're all so very certain. No point of wasting time.

[Raskolnikov]

At least have the conviction to hammer if we're all so very certain. No point of wasting time.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: rask

Okay this should move things along

now get huntress tomorrow please

[Raskolnikov]

From what I've seen so far though, you guys are pretty screwed in mylo.

[Raskolnikov]

All around me are familiar faces

[Raskolnikov]

Worn out places, worn out faces

[Raskolnikov]

Bright and early for the daily races

[Raskolnikov]

Going nowhere, going nowhere

[Raskolnikov]

Their tears are filling up their glasses

[Raskolnikov]

No expression, no expression

[Raskolnikov]

Hide my head I wanna drown my sorrow

[Raskolnikov]

No tomorrow, no tomorrow

[Raskolnikov]

game's over fam

[Raskolnikov]

The game's finished

[Raskolnikov]

The game's finished

[Raskolnikov]

WP, I really suck at this whole mafia thing.

[Raskolnikov]

You're right, I'm sure I could've got out of that somehow if I was better.

[Raskolnikov]

But it is not the case.

[Raskolnikov]

Raskolnikov, Mafia Goon, Lynched Day 1

hey cmon give me more credit that that at least

[Raskolnikov]

*than that

[Raskolnikov]

Rask, what possessed you to think that fake counter-claiming your buddy on the way out the door would lead to anything but you being lynched when someone countered you?

I'm beginning to think you've never seen the town gambit the scum play was based on, but it's actually a legit thing to bait NKs and you always retract next day if it fails.

[Raskolnikov]

I was kind of hoping it was JK setup though and I could just keep BP as the claim, tracker setup meant I was screwed either way there. Ending the day early meant there was no chance of sickofit outing his result, and if there was doctor an unclaimed sickofit had a small chance of not being protected. But even so the crumb was too obvious. When you have almost no chance of winning you might as well take risks no?

The only alternative is maybe I could've lynched someone else d2, but frederick flaked out and sobolev didn't vote anywhere else so that would've been really difficult... I tried to get them to actually bus me, hinted at it and even intentionally misrepped and sobolev noticed it but didn't fight back so it was not to be.

[Raskolnikov]

I've never seen one where the guy who counterclaims to quickhammer then retracts lives through two more days. It's effective as Town specifically because your survival doesn't matter.

If the flip is town it's pretty scummy but most people are okay with it if the flip is scum and it's retracted before actual town PR CCs (i.e. there's little "damage done"). You realize you're probably the most offended by that play right? Pretty safe to say it's tracker crumb that got me lynched.

[Raskolnikov]

Loopdan would've seen it eventually.

[Raskolnikov]

The problem with perspective is, if x person finds something really scummy, they might see that was what sealed the deal, but in the overall grand scheme of things it's just 1 vote. But the crumb is the kind of thing that gets 4-5 votes.

I can't believe you rolled BP tho geeeeez

[Raskolnikov]

Next game I play with you I'm probably rolling town and it's going to be a huge hassle getting townread...

[Raskolnikov]

Whatever, Rask.

I'm sorry, you're right, you got me. I would not have fakeclaimed if I knew I was going to have to retract it. The hope was that in a jailkeeper setup I would never have to retract that claim (because BP would not get CC'd, and also the crumb would probably not lynch me with a JK flip).

[Raskolnikov]

Didn't this game start before the other one finished?

[Raskolnikov]

Also it's weird how different you're style is from TTTT to here.

Is that an alt thing or a newbie-queue thing?

[Raskolnikov]

*your

fuck

[Raskolnikov]

I can't wait for our lovely IC's feedback.

Of all people I believed there was 0 chance huntress would miss the crumb. Actually, I was desperately hoping with that push onto her maybe I could've quickhammered her somehow or something before she posted d3

[Raskolnikov]

That avatar tho

[Raskolnikov]

nd I couldn't help but think back to reading Rask's thoughts about me in the scum thread of our last game.

How ever did you manage to find it in that huge mess of a pt?

Also, surprised it never got mentioned in main thread, no-one cared I guess, but in the end it was that annoying townbloc that was why we killed d7 and you. People thought they were weird kills lol.