Newbie 521: Game over, SCUM WINS!

[Twister]

/confirm

[Twister]

Have fun!

vote: Xtoxm

for OMGUSing! (Oh My Gosh You Suck - voting for someone because they voted for you.)

btw - How much experience does everyone have?

This is my first game, but I have been keeping up with my brother's game - Newbie 507.

[Twister]

Why is everyone so anxious to role claim? I would think that role claiming would be a good way to get yourself killed.

Sierra

If we lynch the roleblocker day 1 and they both live to see day 2, they should both claim and the game will be practically won already.

I disagree. If we don't lynch scum, our doctor is dead that night.

Sierra

If we don't lynch the roleblocker day 1, cop should only claim if he found scum or we're about to lynch the townie he found innocent; doc should only claim if there was no nightkill and we're about to lynch the townie he protected.

WAY too much of a generalization. There are many factors that could arise that would make me still not want to claim. Be careful about convincing a newbie to throw themselves under the bus way too early. I don't think these were your intentions, but if someone followed your suggestions blindly they could be in a lot of trouble.

Sierra

They of course should also claim when we're about to lynch them.

What good will that do? If you're ready to lynch them and they role claim is that going to change your mind or make them seem more scummy? If you're the cop and you think you're going to be lynched and you investigated someone the night before and found scum, then your claim will help the next day, but I doubt it will save your own life.

Sierra

When a mafia falsely claims cop or doc, the real powerrole should immediately reveal himself.

Immediately? The town may not believe the scum anyway, then what good did your role claim do besides get you targeted at night? Also, like Xtoxm said who's to say scum claims first and not second? I think it's dangerous to assume the second person to role claim is telling the truth. The only assumption you can make is that ONE of them is lying.

Sierra

Obviously, it's never wise for an ordinary townie to falsely claim cop or doc.

What about if... Okay, maybe I'll agree with this one.

Godot

The cop should only claim if he gets a guilty investigation or if the doctor claims, so that the doctor knows who to protect.

If you're the cop, use your information wisely! You can encourage people to believe the information you know without necessarily having to put a big target on your chest at night.

If I were fortunate enough to get a special role I would be VERY protective of that information.

[Twister]

Thok

Twister, any reason for the experience question?

Just curious about who's actually new and who just switched from different forums.

[Twister]

In this circumstance, the remaining mafia has no choice but to claim cop or doc then. Can't just sit by and let them go through with as you have described.

Wouldn't do any good. It would just make it easier to find the scum. If there are two cops you lynch one on day two, and the other on day three. Same if they claim to be a doc.

[Twister]

Xtoxm

I think it's the type of thing a mafia would try and slip in casually, as he did, to try and sound town-side...I have been refering to all parties in the 3rd person

Remember also that this is a newbie game and that was my first post EVER with any kind of meat. Do you really think it's more likely that I was trying to slip into your subconscious as being townie or that I let a pronoun slip in the first couple lines of an anxious first post?

Kison

Sorry but I'm not quite seeing what's suspicious about his reaction. He's stated he wants the game to move on, and even if he misinterpreted the meaning behind the vote, it's consistent with what he's been saying.

Unvote
Vote : Godot

Godot said himself that he was willing to dismiss it as noob eagerness and wouldn't place a vote for him. I can understand someone raising a FoS (Finger of Suspicion), but why do you think Godot's suspicions warrant a vote for him? Your vote for him, especially as an IC (Inexperience Challenged) makes me slightly suspicious. Isn't part of your job as an IC to teach us how to use words like IC and FoS?

UNVOTE: Xtoxm

FoS Kison

[Twister]

Also, Xtoxm, about the pace of the game. - I can only check this forum at nights during the week, and may occassional have days like yesterday where I worked from 7am to 10pm and don't really feel like getting on here and thinking afterwards. Just so you know, I will probably only have time to post once or twice a day and it will always be after 5 or 6.

[Twister]

Sierra

As in my experience scum generally try to lay low and hope townies start accusing eachother,

That's kinda how it feels right now. There are a few of us bickering over small issues, but I haven't seen anything of much substance. I found myself TRYING to find issues to stir up conversation. Maybe there isn't much to talk about because the people with something to hide haven't said much. To stir up conversation I think everyone should post their thoughts on each player which will hopefully lead to something.

I guess that means I should go first:

Sierra - He seems townie to me. He had some interesting strategy analysis on page 1. After his first post I thought he might have been trying to convince the power roles to confess earlier than needed, however by the end of the conversation I agreed with him. The other game 'newbie 507' that I am watching did not GUARANTEE anyone had a power role, which makes strategy quite a bit different. I think my first reaction was trying to find something from nothing.

Godot - He seems townie too. I don't think his suspicions of Xtoxm are unwarranted.

Xtoxm - I have gone back and forth with my suspicions of you. I agreed with Kison for a while that you were consistent and probably just new, until I looked back at a few of your posts. In post 14 you said, "I'm in a couple (games) that are on day 1, this is essentially my first game." Saying you were in a couple that were on day 1 makes me assume atleast 2 others plus this one otherwise you would have said I'm in one other game. After all, you said in post 69 you spent a long time thinking about your first post on here. 24 'real' hours later you say we're moving too slow and your first game had a lynch in 2 real hours. If all of your games were in day 1, and this is essentially your first game does that mean you joined 3 games in less than two hours, since your 'first' game had a lynch in 2 real hours? Did your other game you apparently have going on get its lynch in the first 24 hours or were you barking at them to hurry up as well? Things don't seem to be adding up, which makes me most suspicious of you.

Franzie - I don't really have a feeling for you yet. Have you done anything besides check on whether or not our mod makes deadlines for lynching?

Kison - Somewhat suspicious.

1) Lack of better options
2) It looks like he's trying to cast unnecessary suspicion

In response to #1 - Who said you had to vote at all yet?
In response to #2 - Your vote on Godot seems to be casting more 'unnecessary suspicion' than Godot's posts. I don't think being suspicious of Xtoxm is unnecessary, nor do I think being suspicious of Godot is unnecessary for that matter. Saying we should only be suspicious of the people you say we should be suspcious of sounds scummy to me.

Thok - Slightly suspicious. You haven't posted much that has contributed to conversation, then when Sierra puts a little pressure on you, you make an accusation based on nothing. My vote on Xtoxm was a joke vote for OMGUSing, and my FoS on Kison had reasoning. Your votes and FoSs on the other hand have not really had any backing, just like all of your posts so far.

For now, Xtoxm and Kison are attracting my attention, but... I am very curious to see what the lurkers have to say.

[Twister]

Okay, if that's how voting works.

Vote: Kison

[Twister]

btw - Four people stated some degree of suspicion about Xtoxm trying to push the pace. I guess four of us are odd, and suspicious for a non-legitimate reason.

Kison

Yet, contrary to Godot's vote, mine was placed for what I consider a legitimate reason.

[Twister]

Umm... This concerns me....

[quote "Xtoxm"]
And Vote: Kison for not having any votes on him yet.
[/quote "Xtoxm"]

Actually.... You put him at L-1. You also said that you thought Kison was townie...

Mod, can we get an official vote count?

It looks to me like the count is:

Twister - [Xtoxm]
Sierra - [Godot]
Godot - [Kison], [Sierra]
Xtoxm - [Franzie]
Kison - [Thok] [Twister] [Xtoxm]

[Twister]

[quote "Thok"]
unvote Kison, vote Twister

If you are concerned with Godot's vote, and you thought it was an attempt to put Kison at lynch -1, why are you keeping your vote on Kison still?
[/quote]

Why should I be the one to unvote Kison? I was the only one of the three who voted for him for real reasons. I thought we might find someone good information from people's reactions. I'm also not too concerned about Kison being hammered. According to the people who have provided analysis so far, most only have slight suspicions of Kison, which should not be enough for someone to drop the hammer. Since no one is strongly suspicious of Kison, I can't imagine anyone but scum dropping the hammer after I point out that he's at L-1, but even that would be EXTREMELY dumb for scum because we would all remember who dropped the hammer on day 2. A one for one trade at the very WORST was worth the risk to me. I really couldn't imagine the hammer being dropped so fast, so why should I rush?

I think it's time for you to provide us with your player analysis, Thok. Many people noted concerns about you in their posts. Don't you think it's time to address some of them?

[Twister]

btw.... Can someone please help me with my quotes? What's the proper syntax?

[Twister]

It's inconsistent for you to express massive concerns about a vote and then not to retract your vote also.

My concern was not directly with Kison being at L-1 (though I'm not ready for him to be lynched and wasn't too concerned about that anyway, as I stated in post 95) but with Xtoxm apparently being the one to put him there after stating in the same post that he thought he was townie.

Um, excuse me, Twister, I think you'll find that if you read my post properly, I was quoting Franzie, hence the quotation marks, and it was not in bold!!!

I see now, but next time please use the quote feature... Especially if you're quoting someone's vote. I thought you had forgotten to bold your vote.

Thok, your analysis does not seem to have much meat.

[quote = "Thok"]
Kison: Leaning townish, now that I've seen him post more and given that he was pushed to lynch -1.
[/quote]

Please explain what about being pushed to lynch -1 makes him townie? (Even though he really wasn't pushed to lynch -1)

Since people seem to be doing lists of suspicions (which isn't that helpful, IMHO, as it can be a way to create fluff to work with), I guess I'll play along.

It does a good job of giving us a basis for judging lurkers who don't post much else besides when they are explicitly asked to.

[Twister]

Kison, I believe you are the only one that hasn't posted their analysis. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

[Twister]

[quote ="Thok"]Do you really believe that a person thinking somebody is at lynch-1, and also disliking the supposed vote that put them at lynch-1, but yet not having any interest in unvoting them is playing consistently? If not, why do you think they're playing in this manner? [/quote]

I guess you didn't read my posts #95 and 103. Please re-read and then explain to me why you still feel I'm being inconsistent. You haven't given any reasons that I haven't legitimately answered.

[quote="Xtoxm"]Thok, in Twister's defense, I have myself in another game forgotten to take my vote off someone after stating I believed their cop claim.[quote]

I know you're defending me, but so that Thok and everyone else knows I'm being 'consistent', as I explained in posts 95 and 103 I purposefully did not remove my vote from Kison because I was not worried about him being lynched. Please give me a feasible scenario for a situation that could have turned out poorly next time you accuse me.

I'm wondering if you reacted so quickly and with such force because Kison is your scum buddy and you were scared of him being quicklynched. You are both my biggest suspects right now, and I am still interested to see Kison's analysis.

[Twister]

People appear to be suspicious of me so in this post I will try to address concerns people have with me. Please let me know if you feel I left something out.

-Implies that everyone was anxious to roleclaim.
-Suggested that roleclaiming prior to lynch would not be a good move.

First four posts that weren't joke votes were about roleclaiming. I was strongly against it until Sierra's explanation. I still think you can use your information to your advantage without having to roleclaim. If you know pertinent information and feel you are definitely about to be lynched then yes, I think it is important to share. I don't think it will save you, but you have to play this game with an altruistic perspective anyway. (Which is an unnatural way of thinking and hard habit to get out of.) I still think roleclaiming can get ugly, but I do understand the benefits now. Remember that this is the first game for some of us and our initial reaction to a situation may be flawed.

-Finds that Godot's suspicion of Xtoxm is warranted.

As stated previously. -Four people stated some degree of suspicion.

-"Saying we should only be suspicious of the people you say we should be suspcious of sounds scummy to me. " - blatantly twisting my words.

You didn't explicitly state that, but it felt like you were dismissing Godot's concerns as ridiculous. Especially when all he said was that he would keep his eye on him. You jumped him awfully fast for almost nothing, and yes you were right before when you said my problem with it is that you took it to the next level by voting. It seemed and still seems like you were trying to exploit someone awfully early for something very minor.

post 73: Seems to use odd language...

-Mostly a jab at Kison because I was ready to vote for him and with being annoyed that it felt like he was talking down to people. - With his downplaying of Godot's concerns and his post immediately before more vote:

That's how voting typically works, my friend.

Franzie raised concerns about my explanation about not ‘unvoting’ Kison as well. I feel like people are ignoring my explanation behind my actions. –It was a purposefully thought out response, and I felt like it was a good strategy and actually got us somewhere. If you have suspicions about my reaction please let me know specifically what they are. You said you thought I may have purposefully botched the count. If you read it, Xtoxm’s quote was not quoted in the traditional manner, and the part where I thought he voted for Kison is on it’s own line. After his explanation I see what he did, but it was a completely innocent mistake. It’s very much a WIFOM argument to think I would have purposefully miscounted the votes.

First of all, there's the possiblity I mentioned before that keep Kison at lynch -1 could force a roleclaim of a townie (and possibly of a power role).

Actually, I’ll admit I did not think about this, though I still don’t think it would have been very likely. I think it would have been very premature. As explained previously, I did not believe Kison was in immediate danger of being lynched.

Secondly, the other's won't vote/hammer only works if you believe all of Sierra/Franzie/Godot are town, which is a fairly strong assumption early in the game.

No, as explained previously it would be obvious that they were scum if they hammered. So-the assumption I made was that they weren’t ridiculously dumb town or ridiculously dumb scum. I think that’s a valid assumption.

Thirdly, it's possible that a townie could convince themselves to hammer or could even hammer by accident in that situation. (Unlikely here, but possible.)

As you said, unlikely. I’ll even go further and say HIGHLY unlikely. I don’t think this is a poor assumption.

Fourth, the subtext of Twister's argument is "I'm the only person who's vote on Kison isn't suspicious. You suspicious people should remove your vote first." But if Twister was actually suspicious of me/Xtoxm, then he should be unvoting Kison, as our votes would be an indication that he is likely town.

First of all, that is not a quote, so please don’t use quotation makes to make it look like that is exactly what I said. My intentions were to see if anyone would react suspiciously, and I believe that goal was met…

[Twister]

Twister thinks Xtoxm is most suspicious. Next is Kison, then Thok.

Not at all true... And... The following sounds like a setup:

I think I'm going to vote Twister, because three people have him on top of their list and he was second on mine (and he wasn't on Godot's), but I'll wait for the announced vote-count and perhaps some more opinions.

If I am second on your list, why would you vote me when you think I'm on the top of three others lists? It looks like you're setting it up so that if I get lynched and turn up town then you can say you only voted because three others voted and I was only second on your list, thus making you look less scummy and the others looks more scummy.

I also just noticed that you and Kison were the only two that voted on Godot... For very poor reasoning... Now you're both ganging up on me.... If I get hammered by these two, remember this post....

Maybe I was seeing things that weren't there. Unvote: Godot. [/Sierra]
Possibly an unexperienced scum following around his scum buddy?

Here's a question for everyone: Based on the information you have right now, who do you think is the scum pair? And who (besides yourself) do you think is the "most town"?

FoS Kison and Sierra as a possible scum pair.

[Twister]

Maybe for a pair Godot/Kison

What makes you think this?

[Twister]

@Twister: So first you've got me listed as a probable townie, but when I start accusing you I'm suddenly most likely mafia. Nice giveaway there.

I did have you listed as town, but looking back I think you've been mostly flying under the radar. You haven't posted much, and when you have posted you haven't really said much. Saying you were going to vote for me thus putting me at L-1 because

other

people were suspicious of me seemed strange.

[Twister]

That is why I have been trying to get Xtomx to explain himself more often.

You two need to make some legitimate accusations about eachother if you are going to keep bickering like this. I am getting tired of reading both of your one line posts that don't really lead anywhere. Your entire back and forth discussion on the second half of Page 4 I don't know what either of you were referring to, and don't really care.

[Twister]

I also want to restate that I still find Xtoxm very suspicious. He's my second suspect, behind Thok, and if everyone started to come around to this, I would gladly move my vote to him. As it stands, I will keep my vote on the one I find more scummy.

What recently has made you suspicious? You stated the 'our doc' thing in your analysis, but besides his blowup at the beginning is there anything in particular you have noticed?

Also, since you were the first to ask, who do YOU see as possible scum pairs?

I wasn't posting, because I already said what I wanted to say, not much new to add.

You said you might vote for me after the vote count, and then when I said I thought your reasons seemed like a scum tactic you implied with "Nice giveaway there." that it was a scummy thing for me to think you were town, then possibly think you were scum. Do you still think my suspicions are unwarranted? If you think I 'gave away' that I was scum why aren't you trying to convince others of it, or are you too busy flying under the radar again?

-Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who will stick my head out and try to get people talking about real issues. I know the rest of you must have thoughts about something. Maybe try throwing some of those ideas out there to keep discussions alive.

[Twister]

Thirdly, claiming that "Your intentions were to see if people would act suspiciously" isn't really an argument. You could always claim after the fact that's what you were trying to do, so it's a meaningless argument. Any play can be justified by "I wanted to see if people would react suspiciously to it." Why should we think that's actually your motivations, rather than scum trying to push suspicion on multiple people?

Thirdly, you seem to take the possibility to of a hammer in that scenario way too lightly. I mean, suppose hypothetically that scum were two out of three of Sierra/Franzie/Godot in that situation. A hammer in that scenario could be a decent play as people would have focused on the people on the Kison wagon and the scum who didn't hammer would have a decent chance of winning.

This has been beat into the ground. I think I've explained myself sufficiently to everyone except for you, and I'm obviously not changing your mind. I'm saying this so you don't think I'm ignoring you, but I'm not responding to this from you anymore, unless someone else would like to hear more.

Vote Twister.

Atleast you're a man of your word, I guess...

[Twister]

It seems like I am having votes cast on me for very poor reasons:

1) Thok, I believe, is voting for me because he thinks I was following him around, and because I did not unvote Kison when I thought he was at L-1. His first reason seems like a ridiculous paranoid reason for voting someone that I'm surprised an IC would throw out there. His second reason I feel I have thoroughly explained and find it scummy that he is still so stuck on these two poor issues.
2) Sierra, said that he would vote for me because 'others' are suspicious of me, which, as I explained previously may be him following around his scum partner (Kison) as they did on Godot.
3) Kison is the only one who seems to have had any decently valid points, but I feel I have answered them sufficiently, however I think he may be riding me so hard because I have been accusing him of seeming scummy as well. Which, of course scum doesn't want someone around who is putting suspicion on them.

I feel like I have suspicion on me because I have been the most vocal of anyone about how I feel about everyone in this game. (Well, except for Godot and Xtoxm accusing each other, but they're so stuck on each other that sometimes it seems like they hardly pay attention to anything else.) I don't see why that's a bad thing though... Unless you're scum in my sights...

I still see Kison and Sierra as the most likely scum pair. My vote remains on Kison.

[Twister]

My thoughts on Xtoxm are that he seems very inexperienced. As I said in my first (non-confirmation) post of this thread, this is my first game and I have watched closely only one other game. -That game being Newbie 507. Xtoxm reminds me very much of the way Quitex played in Newbie 507. He was lynched in Day 1, and ended up being town. (Skim conversations between Trebis and Quitex leading up to the D1 lynch.) I understand that this is not necessarily always true and I'm sure other people can point to games where someone acting this way and actually was scum. My point however is that for D1 I would rather not lynch someone for seeming inexperienced and immature (I don't mean this as a put down, you just don't seem to have grasped the subtleties of this game as quickly as others) when there are people who seem suspicious to me for 'non-experience' related reasons.

That being said though.... XTOXM, PLEASE USE REASONING AND EXPLAIN YOUR POSTS!!! DO NOT ASSUME WE CAN READ YOUR MIND! Post 201 is a perfect example of the type of things he says that make me think he's more inexperienced than scum. However, it is page 9, and now that these things have been pointed out, Xtoxm, you need to work on not doing them anymore. Use more detail, no more one liners.

[Twister]

I reread Xtoxm's posts and still feel like it's mostly newbieness.

As Xtoxm said in post 213, it was explained to him that games typically go at this pace. His post where he says it was explained to him is a distinct point where that view point of his changed.

As far as the suspicion that he bused me then jumped off all of a sudden when he thought I was in trouble is not accurate either. If you read back over, there are posts PAGES ahead of time where he indicates he his getting less suspicious of me. (I don't feel like quoting because I don't want to spend that much time on the computer, but if you reread his posts, they are there.)

fyi-I'm with family for the holidays, as I'm sure most of you are, and won't be checking this much. I'll try to get on occassionally, but expect my posts to be shorter because I won't be delving too deep into things.

[Twister]

Good finish Thok.

Xtoxm, you asked who I everyone would have voted for D3. If I had been town I would have voted Thok. All of your arguements seemed dead-on, and... Sierra even brought back up the issue about me following Thok around at the beginning.

In my opinion this was a dangerous thing for Thok to have pointed out. I thought this was going to be a dead give away. First of all though, I hadn't followed Thok around on purpose. When he pointed it out I hadn't even realized I was doing it by that point. I was simply pointing blame where I found it most suspicious. When he said it I took it as 'hey, watch yourself. you don't want people grouping the two of us together' so I tried to avoid the issue rather than make a big deal about it. Besides the two of us being scum partners why would I follow his move?

For this reason I thought it was a bad idea for him to stick with me the entire D1. I didn't think it was a very strong reason for being CERTAIN someone was scum, unless you were CERTAIN because you were scum as well.

I also think I could have talked myself out of being lynched D1, if it wasn't for Thok. Franzie and Xtoxm were absolutely positive I was town. Most of D1 I felt Godot thought I was fairly town as well, but hammered at the end because he felt the pressure was on him to make a decision about me and end D1. He wouldn't have had to make that decision if Kison and Sierra were the only two suspicious of me.

Kison was the only person I felt endangered from. I had attacked him and he had refuted my attacks well, while pointing out my flaws. I would have wanted him dead night 1, even if it had made me look more suspicious.

Xtoxm I was trying to set up D1. I actually really hoped he would be lynched D1 so I could look even more townie by not jumping aboard the bandwagon. I also knew I would have to make some townie friends in case I was lynched. I was hoping it would be Godot and Xtoxm, but I was glad to see Franzie jumped on board too, haha.

I was surprised to see that Thok being suspicious of me FIRST (for what I thought was a weak arguement) cleared his name completely D2. I thought his certainty over a weak issue (actually 2 I guess... the following him thing and the miscounted vote) would show he had more information than the average joe.

Anyway, that's my take on the game. Good game guys.

[Twister]

I did not like that you knew for sure that 1 of each power role existed because of what Sierra pointed out in Post 24. - If the RB is lynched d1 and the cop and doc live through the night, the town is mathematically guaranteed a win if the cop and doc role claim.

I think the game is more interesting if you don't know which power roles exist.

I am fine with the RB can only choose to RB or lynch during the night issue.

[Twister]

Actually, now that I think about it some more... In Post 24 Sierra said that his strategy would only work if the RB was lynched D1. That's not true. Even if you only get the goon, if both the doc and cop live through the night town wins if they both role claim. I dislike this setup even more, haha.