Newbie 1732 [Game Over!]: InnocentVille

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: Implosion

Explosions are better.

[AstralFlare]

Also that card has screwed me over too many times in hearthstone

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: Chrimi

Your terrifying display of circular logic indicates evil and/or a sense of humor!

Probably evil. VOTE: Chrimi

[AstralFlare]

I'm also willing to weakly call Chrimi town for now, but only very weakly. I'd also say AstralFlare is slightly town.

I'm curious as to how you were able to get a read (however mild) on Chrimi and I after two or three posts each. Is this purely based off tone?

Self voting during RVS is a fun way to get some conversation started in my opinion :b

You seem to have succeeded.

I know I started it. I was mostly joking. :u

You're switching stories. Which is it?

(Imagine I am clever and have inserted a cute gif here)

relatable

Also, welcome Rocnix!

[AstralFlare]

Do you people have any experience with mafia? I'm fresh out of the clusterfuck which is Telegram Werewolf, which was what really brought me back after a year long hiatus. I'm a little more experienced now though, and hopefully a little better at catching the baddies.

[AstralFlare]

Jibs seems towny, he's quite actively questioning people and trying to push the discussion forward, with lots of effort spent on checking Chrimi's past games. I'll be investigating those as well, and I'll post in a few hours if I find anything interesting.

Implosion, is your Penguin FoS tone based as well?

Shannon and rocnix, do you have any thoughts right now on anything?

[AstralFlare]

Implosion: To rephrase, are you saying the tone which he used when he voted me was scummy?

[AstralFlare]

she opened up with a self vote in Open 398, where she ended up being scum. I couldn't find any other games where she started like that.

That was in 2012! In her more recent games, I'm unable to find any examples of anyone selfvoting during RVS.

Chrimi: In addition to Jib's question, I would like to know if you've had any recent off-site experience.

[AstralFlare]

Welcome 0x40!

Rocnix and Chrimi, why aren't you voting?

[AstralFlare]

she opened up with a self vote in Open 398, where she ended up being scum. I couldn't find any other games where she started like that.

That was in 2012! In her more recent games, I'm unable to find any examples of anyone selfvoting during RVS.

Chrimi: In addition to Jib's question, I would like to know if you've had any recent off-site experience.

Astral Eevee - why are you defending Chrimi against Jibs' comment here?

My intention was completely the opposite. In my second statement, I was trying to add on to the pressure on her with more questions. Sentence one was a more of 'Hey I did my too homework and want to compare my answers with yours' kinda thing.

Chrimi, why are you

still

not voting?

[AstralFlare]

Not voting at this stage

is

in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?

And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

[AstralFlare]

And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

(I'll chill on the double posting now)

[AstralFlare]

I don't have much time to give Very Serious reads right now, and in fact won't have much time until my Friday evening, so in the meantime just expect some general thoughts and questions.

Actually you know what?

Calling it right here

Shannon-Penguin

I'm not getting the scum reads on these two. Care to explain them? Both are a null for me right now, especially in comparison with Chrimi. Is this all tone based? None of them has done anything particularly scummy. Shannon's vote onto Chrimi seemed appropriate considering she was questioning Chrimi at that time - extra pressure. Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement. Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

[AstralFlare]

Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.

Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.

I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.

[AstralFlare]

Implosion: Do you have thoughts on anyone beyond Chrimi?

Expect me back in 10 hours, or failing that, two days.

[AstralFlare]

Thoughts on alts: (I have none btw)

With TNE here. Alts shouldn't be a be all and end all as far as reads go, rather they should be supporting evidence. But my vote on Chrimi isn't about her alts, it's about her deflecting literally every question and withholding information and not supporting her arguments and just generally screaming ASININE ASININE ASININE when people try to vote her.

@TNE, could you elaborate on 159?

Any readlists you guys feel like sharing? Mine comes tomorrow.

[AstralFlare]

*snip*

Astralflare: Let's see that reads list. Also, do you remember which posts you were talking about here in post 103?

I'm going with a tentative townlean onto implosion. His posts have generally been informative and content heavy, logical and measured. I like that.

Your read feels a little TMI to me: up to that point I had felt like imp's play felt very "cares more about being right than finding scum."

I've had a third to half of it written out right now, I'm afraid it's going to be a wall. Probably tomorrow night my time. (GMT +8)
I can't remember exactly which of his posts I had in mind back then, but now looking back his 78-89 are all solid.
I don't get what TMI stands for, but I don't particularly agree with your "cares more about being right than finding scum". I think that a lot of what you mean by "being right" (correct me if I'm wrong) are the sections of his posts which involve imparting knowledge of the meta into us Newbies, which is all part of his IC role. Obviously he has to sound right, and be right. And he's definitely scumhunted, in his exchange with Chrimi and now his 183.

Also, and I am sorry to do this, can you explain the discrepancy here:

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4.

Can we start a Chrimi question deflection list? I'll start.

Q48(AF): [...] Chrimi, why aren't you voting?
A56: I self voted myself and now people are reading over every post I've ever made on the site. I wouldn't call this "passive" :b
I'm a bit preoccupied trying to get people to not think "Oh we caught scum in the first post cause they did this silly thing during RVS that draws attention to them!!" because I would hate to see them try this outside of a newbie game.

Q71:(0X4X): First you say you have multiple alternate accounts, and now it's only "an alt?"
VOTE: Chrimi
You will explain this contradiction, along with giving the usernames of all your other alts, if you want this vote to be elsewhere today.
A73: Anyways, is this game an elaborate prank or are you actually going to stick your vote on me the entirety of day one for having alternate accounts? Most players on this site have alternate accounts. It's not scummy, or against the rules.
A74: And yes, I do have two alts, but the second one is literally a Hydra between this account and the first alt, so i don't really consider it an actual alt.

I gtg soon, but the general trend I've seen is her counter questioning her questioner to avoid answering the original question. In 102 as well. Also no time for fancy formatting and quotes, so again if someone could do that thank you.

*snip*

I'm sorry as well, but I don't see a contradiction. In the first post you quoted, I said Chrimi seemed town at end of Page 3, but seemed scum in Page 4, after the dodging and the witholding of information ramped up to a whole new level. The second post was merely a half done attempt to list down every time she had done so. Where did I contradict myself?

[AstralFlare]

Meanwhile, a question for everyone.

PP: Why aren't you voting? You said in Post 147 that you were unvoting your RVS but wasn't voting as you had nowhere better to place it. And yet, you read Chrimi as scum in the very same post.

Chrimi: Can I have your thoughts on people besides implosion?

0x40: Same as Chrimi, but thoughts on people besides Chrimi.

Jibs: The Rocnix townread. The one thing in your analyses I'm scratching my head over. Explain.

Rocnix:

Jibs doesn't strike me as the sort of mastermind to start that early, so that's probably not a breadcrumb for eventual post-flip association whatever. So, the thoughtful posts read town.

Explain this!

Shannon: Are you suspicious of anyone beyond 0x40?

TNE: You've said a lot about your scumreads, but is there anyone who you think is town?

Implosion: Could you separate the IC part of your posts from the play part? It's difficult to tell which is which. In my previous game the IC's theory posts were a different color.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: AstroFlare
For the obvious misrepresentation in 105.

I.
Literally.
Copied.
And.
Pasted.

How is that misrepresentation?

[AstralFlare]

@IC: How do you differentiate between anti-town townie and anti-town scummie?

Because I'm having a hard time deciding which Chrimi is right now.

[AstralFlare]

Wait wait wait what's a VI again

[AstralFlare]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Spoiler: AstroFlare's Very Serious Readlist. Casting:

0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.

Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.

Jibs is null. Meaning I have no idea what tf is going on with his Rocnix stances but I would hazard a guess that if one is scum the other likely is as well. His Rocnix reads are oscillating around randomly, from town in 181/214 to maybe let's lynch her in 266, because "Idk why". And I don't agree with some of his reads as well.

Rocnix reminds me a lot of myself during my first game. So yeah town or null. Do something interesting please.

Shannon town. Reaction test town, readlist fairly close to mine, cool 276. I'm still expecting that case on Jibs btw.

TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.

PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.

[AstralFlare]

FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.

I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.

Seeing as I forgot to do so last post,
UNVOTE:

[AstralFlare]

Seeing as I forgot to do so last post,
VOTE: thenewearth

Keeping this here until I get some reads

[AstralFlare]

kk point by point rebuttal.

Speaking of AstroFlare:

Spoiler: Case

Not voting at this stage

is

in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?

And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

Total misrepresentation. I still don't know how the fuck you're hearing tone from a text-based game, but my tone was obviously sarcasm. Not voting during RVS isn't scummy, and I considered us still in RVS because the only people who thought they were "out" of RVS were making dumb votes based on my RVS vote.

You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.

To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.

I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.

Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :b

I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:

On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.

Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.
Riiight.

Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.

Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

"Please discredit her playstyle!"[/spoiler]

I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.

VOTE: AstralFlare

[AstralFlare]

0x40 as town. That's the surprise done with. His style is really confrontational and provocative, far far more so than I would expect from scum. He says he's played lots of IRC mafia. I've played a lot of IRC werewolf. I can say that one of the most common plays I see good town doing is pointing fingers at everyone day one to add pressure. This is the famous reaction test, although I have doubts about how efficient it is in a slower forum format. This is also what he is doing now. Nitpicking, but 108 and 114 are good. This hammering for concrete info is good town play. I have doubts about him wanting everyone's alts, but it can't be denied that his 254 is good.

He hasn't said anything about this being a reaction test, stop giving him an out. He's not "pointing fingers at everyone and putting pressure" like you seem to think he is. He's hard tunneling a single player because he doesn't understand that having alts is NAI, same with not wanting to share said alts. You're giving a looot of credit where it isn't due.

Fair enough. I can see where this comes from. I was just stating some of the reasons why I townread him, and wasn't trying to decrease pressure on him. This is very town from you though.

Implosion as very weak scumlean. I don't know. On reading his ISO, his recent posts seem waffly. 182 in particular. It is flippy floppy sit-on-the-fence, with him looking unwilling to really commit to anything, while simultaneously trying to reserve the "it's late and I'm sleepy" backdoor if he gets called out. In fact, after another readthrough I seem to notice he's just following the flow of the game, following the majority, lynching someone when others do, townleaning someone when everyone else does. Like right now, he says he's re-evaluating me, after Chrimi voiced her opinion that I was scum. His posts thus far have also been more I agree/I disagree. There's a lack of question marks. Not sure if this is a playstyle thing, but even if it is I think he should be more active in scumhunting.

While I agree with fence-sitting, him re-evaluating you after I told him you're definitely scum and posted a case is super town of him.
I can definitely agree @ the lack of question marks though.

Chrimi is town. Lol. This is based on her 259 readlist and her tone over the past few pages. I don't think scum would build such an awful case on me as well. More on that later.

Scum build awful cases very often, in fact if a case is awful that is usually because it's wrong. The real thing you want to look for is if a case looks like it's coming from genuine town scumhunting, or if it's coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get someone lynched.

Does your case on me looks like it comes from genuine town scumhunting, or is it coming from scum trying to make up reasons to get me lynched? I think it's the former, although very misguided.

TNE as very weak scumlean until I get that Shannon case. It's been 6 posts. She's switched her opinion from totoro-san big that it's Shannon/PP, but now has her vote on 0x4x? I'd like an explanation. Her average postlength looks to be about 30 words, and she hasn't posted a readlist yet. Not helping town.

It's called a joke. And while her posts are small and not huge on content, this is:
1. Per her meta
2. To be expected in most games who are this far into Day One

The abnormality in this game is how much content the rest of us are posting with so little information to go off of, really.

Now you're the one taking pressure off someone else. Why are you defending her? SHe has been really unhelpful, and you should helping to put pressure on her so we can tease something out.

PP as uh, null? I can't tell what you guys find so scummy about him. He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing, his short exchange with Chrimi felt pretty meaningless.

Now this just pings scumteam for me hardcore. No real specifics at all or information, like the rest of your reads had. "He hasn't done anything really attention grabbing" even after making a case on me, tunneling into it before suddenly switching to someone else seemingly out of the blue before I even posted a readslist?

He explained that, and I accepted it.

FTR I really do strongly disagree with the characterization of Chrimi as an anti-town VI. She's providing a lot of reasoned content, and just because you disagree with that content does not make her a VI, or anti-town. This refers to both AstralFlare and 0x40. And I really do think in both of these cases it is mostly just disagreement.

I said she was anti town because she dodged questions and didn't support her claims, not because I disagreed with her. Also her tendency to shove aside anyone who FoSed her as asinine didn't make her look any more townie. Towns try to advance the game, not keep it at a standstill. That's changed since, and I'm glad.

You're misunderstanding.

I haven't changed at all.

I wasn't calling people asinine for FoSing me, and I didn't dodge any questions. I didn't make any claims to support, because I was too busy dealing with several players (mostly 0x40) telling me that I was scum for

having alts.

You saying I was anti-town was totally misrep, and now you're misrepping why you did it in the first place. Yuck.

Oh, yes you've changed from

Jibs, congratulating implosion on getting me to say something about alignment, as if we were into the game enough that I had been avoiding it for any particular amount of time, is asinine.
implosion attempting a serious case on me before page 5 is asinine, hence why I don't take his case seriously at all.
Penguin assuming that an SE telling him that information doesn't benefit town is somehow scummy, is asinine. I'm telling you that alts don't benefit town much as an SE, regardless of my alignment.
0x40, I do have a good reason, and you whining about it when having alts isn't game related in any way is asinine.
Jibs, assuming shannon is scum because she has literally nothing to go on because it's page five is asinine.
Astroflare is just being asinine in general, especially with the misreps after I explained that one is a fucking hydra.

to 259
In one you were lashing out at anything you disagreed with, in another you were providing actual discussion.

kk point by point rebuttal rebuttal

Spoiler: rebute that shit

Speaking of AstroFlare:

Not voting at this stage

is

in fact scummy. While it's true that we're on page three, it has been a Very Serious Game so far. We're pretty much out of RVS, and are already very much in actual discussion. Your vote would be valued here as a means to add pressure on someone, so we can gauge their response for any scumminess.

Because.. Not voting at this stage isn't scummy?

And something about the tone of this just strikes me the wrong way. It reads like you're trying really hard to avoid appearing scummy.

Total misrepresentation. I still don't know how the fuck you're hearing tone from a text-based game, but my tone was obviously sarcasm. Not voting during RVS isn't scummy, and I considered us still in RVS because the only people who thought they were "out" of RVS were making dumb votes based on my RVS vote.

You can read tone from text. You can tell from the choice of words and the sentence length whether someone is happy or angry, indignant or afraid. You can tell from how much they write whether they're being defensive or not. You can tell from all of these whether someone is town or scum. Here's a helpful tutorial: http://literarydevices.net/tone/.

Okay, sure, I guess that makes sense. It was just a misrepresentation of how the tone sounded, because obviously, it was sarcasm or annoyance. I even put a question mark to denote the "tone" picking up near the end like you would in a question. So yeah, I'll buy that you can read into tone, but you were still attempting to misrep me.

To clarify, it makes it seem like you will only do stuff because that will make you look unscummy.

Yes, because I'd selfvote and claim scum in my first post in order to look unscummy and blend in.

I was referring only to the *tone* of that single line.

So the tone you supposedly read from that single line contradicted directly with my actions... Great? (That's more sarcasm btw.)

Penguin has done well, nothing, but I don't think that's uncommon for a game five pages in?

Yet I'm scum for not voting by page 3, right? :b

I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question. I voted you because you were dodging questions, not supporting your claims, and calling everything you didn't like asinine.

Talked about the asinine and dodging questions / not supporting claims earlier in this post, not going to touch on it again (though I would REALLY love you to point out some questions I supposedly "dodged", considering you keep bringing it up).

"I never voted you because you didn't vote by page 3. That was just a question."
So let me get this straight. I haven't done shit, and Penguin hasn't done shit. You ask a haughty question (twice, mind you, bolding it the second time) in which you demand to know why I'm not voting at this point. I assume you were claiming not voting at this point was scummy- otherwise, why ask the god damn question? You don't push Penguin on it at all. The end.

Chrimi: To be honest she sounded very much like outraged townie in her play at the end of page three. Which was fairly solid to me in terms of tone as well as content. But then I completely disagreed with everything she said on Page 4. Her tone shifted as well to become even more defensive, going from outraged townie to afraid scum. I'm happy with where my vote is right now, at least until she continued dodging and stopped supporting her wildest claims. (eg end of 99) (More on this later.)

Page four? Let me see what page four was about... Oh right, it was mine and implosion's disagreement. Let's see what you have to say about that:

On Chrimi's vote on imp: This is OMGUS. It seems from her explanation that this was purely based on a meta disagreement.

Ohhh, right. My disagreement with implosion, which took up most of page four, was based on a meta disagreement. But of course, at the same time, according to you, I was dodging and my "tone" was changing from outraged townie to afraid scum.
Riiight.

Tone I already talked about. You can disagree with someone, while simultaneously dodging their questions and changing your tone? I don't get you at all here.

Again, please quote any questions I supposedly dodged if you're going to make claims like this.. As far as I know I've had a sarcastic tone for most of this game, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about here.

Other SEs, what do you think of this:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

"Please discredit her playstyle!"

I was saying I didn't think this was a good assumption, so I was asking people who are more experienced than me at the game if this is standard.

Yes, but look at the thing you were asking more experienced players about. Here, I'll separate it for you:

Here in Mafia, when people ask questions, it's generally to try and help find scum. So I usually answer questions with the assumption that they think whatever action they're questioning me about is scummy.

I literally stated here that

I personally

assume when you're questioning someone about an action, it's generally because you think it was a scummy action. You asking other SEs their opinion on it totally reads like "Hey other experienced players, discredit this thing she personally does so I can continue pushing it even though it's a playstyle thing!"

Rebuttal rebuted. Care to try again?

[/quote]

I don't see any value in continuing this part of our discussion. I would rather be analyzing the posts of people who are currently null for me and asking questions rather than defending myself over nothing.

[AstralFlare]

The point is, three different people called me out on my rocnix read, and it's not possible for scumteam to be you+pp+imp. I don't think you would change a read based on people disagreeing, but I 100% would.

Why do you think that the people calling you out for your Rocnix read are likely to be scum?
Can you explain why you would follow the reads of others over your own? These people could be scum, and could be trying to influence you to vote a townie. Following other people's reads is also a potentially scummy action, you're just going along with the flow of the game, rather than consciously trying to advance it.

[AstralFlare]

0x40, since you are online, could I ask you for thoughts on actions non Chrimi and Jibs people over the past few pages? I appreciate your readlist, but it looks like you're not responding to much other than what they post.

[AstralFlare]

My main interpretation of shannon's behavior is "impressed." Her reaction test focused on the larger picture, so she's probably townhunting more than scumhunting. My guess is that she's either a power role exploring the situation or scum searching for ideal targets.

Ahh, yes. I'm curious as to how you jumped from "townhunting more than scumhunting" to powerrole however. That said, I feel like actively hunting for powerroles this early is anti-town, as it narrows the pool for mafia nightkills.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: AstralFlare Refuse to participate and you'll fail to sway my vote.

How am I refusing to participate? I'm not defending myself from your case, yes, but I'm participating in other ways. I see more value for town in doing this rather than pointlessly defending myself.

[AstralFlare]

The other thing I'm wondering is whether people *know* we won't be policy lynching (e.g. lynching lurkers) so they're being deliberately lurky D1 because they know they can get a way with it?

I think we've come to a conclusion that we shouldn't be policy lynching people for lurking, but I don't think anything regarding Lynch All Lurkers has been discussed?

While on the topic of lurking: I get that it's the weekend and there hasn't been much to go on lately, but this sudden (relative) silence is pretty worrying. cough TNE this is your cue.

@shannon How much of your 310 was sarcasm?

[AstralFlare]

Hello all.
Rereading is making me like shannon a little more--that's just a gut read, I don't really have a good reason for it. I didn't notice all of her posts the first time through.

This I can agree with.

I don't quite understand why people seem to be clearing Rocnix. My recent posts maybe exaggerate my suspicions, but I think posts like this

My vote will stay on 0x40

since he's not really at risk of being lynched

and I would like to hear more from him.

(my bold) indicate a scum mindset--like she's afraid of being called out for her vote.

I like her vote behind TNE, and I think the same logic can be extended to why it's on 0x40.

Tne needs to explain how she cleared shannon and also post some awesome reads that crack this game open and send scum running with terror.

^

That brings me to my final point--I'm pretty sure this is my last game of forum mafia. It eats up a lot of time and energy, but it doesn't provide what I got from face-to-face Avalon. Nothing against you guys, you've all been great, but I'm pretty tired of this game.

It's not for everyone. My first time here was pretty rough too, but I'm getting a much bigger kick out of it this time! Play whatever you like best, but I for one hope you stick around. :p

[AstralFlare]

If anyone is interested in my town meta, one excellent little piece of it is a large normal that I just completed that shannon was in. By two real-life days into the game, I had 11 townreads out of the 18 other players in the game.

This game is starting to stall out a tad - we'll see after the weekend if it's just because of schedules, or because different people are waiting on more posts from specific players, or other reasons. Hopefully it's just that people in this game are more active on weekdays.

Eh. I don't like this post. For one thing you're cherry picking a game for us to look at, where you've had a reasonably good prediction rate, at least for this early in the game. For another thing you're appealing to ethos. Sure, you might be correct this game as well, but it's different players and a different setup now.

I'll definitely take another look at your meta when I have time, but over there you come off way more declarative. Just look at the average post lengths, for example.

And yeah, I'm mainly waiting for TNE.

[AstralFlare]

We have Chrimi on AF, AF on TNE ,TNE on 0x40, and 0x40 on Chrimi in a round-robin of OMGUS and early game grudges. I think one of our scum is here

Why do you think scum is there? Last I checked, you had Chrimi and I as town, and PP and implosion who aren't in the round robin as null. Assuming your first scumread is Jibs, what makes you so quick to discount PP and implosion, and so confident that it's either TNE or 0x40 as second scum?

[AstralFlare]

I agree that talking about this stuff usually helps scum more than town,

Withholding information is usually anti town. It's a game of an informed minority vs an uninformed majority. Anything that makes the majority more informed swings the game in their favor. I quite honestly do not understand the motivation behind town!TNE withholding info, she knows it'll make her look scummier and seems like a gross under reaction for a townie at L-2. More likely she's scum trying to bluff.

[AstralFlare]

0x40: Is the only time you're going to participate the time when Chrimi does something stupid? And even then you just call her out on it and call her a VI and that's it. Can I have your thoughts on TNE?

[AstralFlare]

I'm feeling very strongly that Chrimi and tne are opposite alignment now

I wouldn't say so. Yes, if TNE flips scum, Chrimi is pretty much confirmed town. There's no reason for scum!Chrimi to push a wagon so hard on her partner over something as common as lurking.

Rocnix: You mentioned in your readlist that TNE was null. So was your vote of TNE several pages after to pressure into more activity, or because you genuinely thought her as scum?

[AstralFlare]

@mod VLA two days I'm really sick and really tired

sorry town

[AstralFlare]

Wtf gj no Nk

[AstralFlare]

I realised that of the possible setups, 5 of those (JK, BP, Doc) could have prevented a nightkill, so that just leaves us with B column eliminated.

Also there's no nightkill for me to analyse, so VOTE: implosion
More on this later.

Cass, could you post your first impressions? Like I said I don't think there's much we can analyze for this night, beyond useless speculation on who scum targeted and who the PR is.

[AstralFlare]

AF, what do you make of the wagon and in general the play that occurred while you were gone? Would you have joined it, do you think? Do you think it was a good lynch?

I think it was town's only option for a lynch with so little time left on the clock, especially with the surge of replacements and my unfortunately illness. I don't really have an issue with the people just joining the wagon because "day ending soon". (I've expressed my own opinion on 0x40 before. If you're too lazy to look through my ISO I called him town.) So no, I would have tried to push another wagon instead.

[AstralFlare]

Weird game. I lost all confidence in my reads over the last two pages. Implosion's wagon onto PP looks sufficiently towny. There's a clear trajectory behind the vote, he's been angling for a PP lynch ever since Day One. If he was scum aiming for a mislynch this would be a weird time to do it as the day just started... there's no way town is going to trip over themselves to follow all the way through on the wagon.

Though come to think of it they could be bussing. Over the night I actually thought the NotSoInnocentVillagers were implosion and PP. Imp pushing the wagon now would clear him up while also ensuring PP isn't lynched. This is all very conjecture, but really I'm interested in seeing how the interaction between the two of them proceed.

Chrimi- I remember you once called imp weakly scummy. In that case why did you join his wagon?

And for the hypocrisy... VOTE: PP L-2.

[AstralFlare]

Okay, Implosion's points on PP's behaviour is convincing and shows me he is a little shady. Kind of slipped under my radar when I've been skimming through day 1.
Now that I think of it, he could very much be the scum I've been concerned of "directing" the wagon on 0x40.
But he didn't raise the fire on 0x40.. I need to check his ISO. Never know what else I might find.

Chrimi's claim, although uncc'ed, is a bit off to me.
FoS: Chrimi.
Why would you roll with tne on the claim request?
Chrimi was quite actively producing flames on 0x40's, but she doesn't seem to be bashing just about anyone, 0x40's was bash - worthy too..

Vote: Cass.
Don't get me wrong, it's not an omgus vote. You didn't answer my question which directly refers to something you addressed.
Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.
I anticipate your answer about Rocnix. Don't ignore something you started.

Why did you FoS Chrimi if you were convinced by implosion's case that PP was scum? What exactly about Chrimi's claim do you find 'off'?

OMG but what about your aaaaaalts

Yep I want aaaaaaaaall their names. Also what's your IRL name and address and phone number.

Joke's aside shannon's lines of questioning and trains of thought today have felt really town to me. She's probably done the most to scumhunt in fact. Now we just need TNE to reply...

I'm going to ISO Chrimi next and see whether there's anything worthy of a NK attempt. From memory nothing sticks out but I'll re-read in light of my new theory. (It's also possible that Chrimi is having a gambit of some sort here).

I think Chrimi was chosen to be NKed because she was the 'safe' choice. She was the one who stood out the most in terms of being aggressive, and would thus have the highest probability of finding scum through her pressure. If you look at the other players, there were two replacements, PP/me are kinda meh, TNE was just lurking with one liners and her wagon had a chance of continuing to the next day. So I think it was down between you, implosion (who has contenty but waffly posts) and Chrimi. Assuming everyone is town.

More random thoughts, this time on the Cass/Drone interaction (yeah this post isn't tyring to drive in any particular direction, just make up for my long absence):
I'm reading both of them as misguided townies right now. I like how Drone said his vote onto 0x40 was a policy lynch from the very start, and then stuck to his guns on it even when under pressure. Cass' observations are solid, but I don't think that FoSing three different people is necessarily scummy--I've done the exact same thing as a townie myself. Drone's argument is much weaker really, but again I think scum wouldn't have tried to make such a weak argument in the first place. A single vote is easy enough to just ignore.

Eg

Rather quickly your attention turned to Chrimi and tne, after you voted me.

It's called trying not to tunnel.

@Cass&Drone: As replacements, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the people who have been playing since the start. This doesn't have to be a thirty quote supported readlist, but I would appreciate a sense of the general feeling you have towards everyone. Just a lean town/null/lean scum would be good enough.

[AstralFlare]

PEdit:

Just saw Astral Flare's post pop up ahead of me hitting this one, and he's voted PP. I'm going to post my ISO check anyway, because I think that's the most honest thing to do. I can't vote PP, I can't see any scum motivation in his posts. What am I missing?

The other thing I want to note, AF, is that if you think the team could be Implosion and PP it might be best to vote for Implosion as he's most experienced. If those two are a team, I think PP will struggle without Implosion where as the reverse might not be so true.

My thought process was more of implosion seems to be contributing more than PP, so it is better to leave him alive (for now). But what you said is certainly valid. I'm not taking my vote away until he posts though.

ISOing PP -

I get newbie town vibes rather than scum vibes. Reading back, I think his response to Implosion's 531 is fair.

389- "Absent a scumslip, significant new information, or us getting within 72 hours of deadline, I don't see my vote changing until Rocnix - or her slot - returns and starts participating. "

410 - "Looks like Rocnix isn't coming back, and we won't get a replacement until D2. I will not support a TNE lynch, and I'm hesitant on Chrimi and AF. I'm willing to pursue Jibs or 0x40. Jibs has been more involved, but to what end...I don't know.

UNVOTE: Rocnix
VOTE: 0x40"

I can see why at this later stage in the day, PP changes his vote off of Rocnix. So overall, townish?

Tbh I think his response to implosion is fair as well.

What I didn't like was how hard he tried to push the TNE wagon when she was L-1 without even FoSing her, even after his scumreads from his 280 readlist were Jibs/imp. Also a 'sideline sitting' 'hesitating to commit' attitude which rubs me not as a playstyle thing, but as a scum-motivated thing. Implosion elaborated more on those.

You're case against me is that I don't play this game like you do.

Which is why this made me laugh a little, as I was getting the same vibes from implosion late Day1.

Also

I can't vote PP, I can't see any scum motivation in his posts. What am I missing?

I don't mind the votes on PP either

Was this purely because of the ISO reread? How did the ISO reread help disprove existing suspicion leveled on PP, such as implosion's case?

PEdit: OK, here's a question for everyone. All else being equal, at the end of D1, who did you think would be the D2 lynch and why?
Tne for lurking and unhelpfulness or PP for scumminess.

[AstralFlare]

tne is my strongest town read

For a crappy attitude, being unwilling to participate unless put at L-1, and asking people to claim? Why?

FoSing

Finger of suspicion when you say you think someone is scummy

[AstralFlare]

Gonna try this and see what happens.

Unvote

VOTE: Drone

I'm going to call you scum partners with PP that's what. He rebutted your argument, you didn't seem convinced by his rebuttal, and yet you took your vote away and put it on Drone.

@Cass, the points on rocnix are by and large not bad on first glance. Not sure what to make of him "distancing" from the 0x lynch. It looks like he just calls it a policy lynch repeatedly, and I agree that it is a little strange to frame it that way so much. Potentially in a scummy way. It's not really distancing himself from the lynch, it's sort of like he's discrediting the lynch as being meaningful.

I can see drone potentially being a good candidate. My reason for townreading rocnix was her doing a 180 on me but eh. I can think of a couple of reasons why that's a bad reason. Curious how drone responds to the part of the iso on him.

Who your entire case on is that he calls the 0x40 vote a policy lynch and that's scummy.

Sure you want pressure on Drone to see his reaction to the ISO, but your pressure on PP has yielded no scumhunting from him, so why not keep it there? Why go from a 3 man wagon to a 0 man one?

[AstralFlare]

Drone: In your readlist you said Chrimi was null and yet your vote is on her, and not on PP who has a scum lean. Also there's a lot of nulls in there, if you had to choose a second person as scum who would it be?

[AstralFlare]

Cass not Chrimi*

[AstralFlare]

Feeling a bit awkward right now about not voting, but I'm torn.
- A PP vote would put him on L-1, I'm not convinced he is scum so not willing to do that. Should do another ISO, because his day 1 made me lean town on him.
- A Drone vote - I want to, but Implosion's switch to him makes me wary. Need to figure out why.
- Part of me wants to put the vote the vote back on TNE, as she's being infuriating and even the IC can't make sense of her reasoning. But the other part of me is still optimistinc that she'll clear it all up and really can solve the game (but how??).

I need to think about this. I want Drone to talk, TNE to talk, if there is an actual CC it'd better happen now - though I don't really understand why TNE would still expect one.

Go back for TNE ty. At least until she explains all her statements regarding claiming, and until does some actual scumhunting—not PR fishing. I want pressure on both TNE and PP. I want them both to talk.

[AstralFlare]

that is: claiming before LyLo. But, in this situation, the BP would not even know they were targeted! There could have been some other target + a Jailkeeper.

Can you think about it for a second? What would you trust more? A BP who claims D2 or a BP who claims pre-LyLo? Its highly unlikely for scum to claim BP on D2, but more likely on pre-lylo.

Just think about why. You'll get it.

Eventually

Because there's a higher chance they will get CCed Day 2 since they don't know for certain which setup the game is using?

I don't know.

You're deliberately being cryptic and trying to spread confusion, which is scummy.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: TNE sure. My vote on Pp doesn't look like it's doing much.

[AstralFlare]

Implosion
PP
TNE/Drone

[AstralFlare]

UNVOTE:

Ok I thought this was just for pressure why do people actually want to lynch her... With 8 days left on the clock!?

[AstralFlare]

Imp I'll get to your questions later

[AstralFlare]

What I'm saying is that even if you think she's scum, hammering someone with 8 days left to dateline is like ultra bad for town, you're throwing away eight days of information.

And TNE answer the questions as well thanks. This is the one time I might be convinced to policy lynch.

[AstralFlare]

2) Why did you fail to address my initial accusation that you were scum and fishing for roles? I even pinned it down to which team I thought you were in. If you think it's a ridiculous accusation, you could at least take the time to explain why.


5) Why are you being cryptic instead of engaging with the rest of us in a productive way? Saying thinks like 'you'll learn one day' doesn't help the town team you're playing with now. I'm reading over your posts again and I can't see anything that hints at a PR crumb, so there's got to be some other reason.

I think it's coming to a time when you need to make a substantive contribution to the game or you're going to get lynched. If you're town, this is your chance to make a real case to defend yourself. Even better, make a substantive case on someone else. I won't accept three line posts, cryptic stuff, and 'you'll see' as answers. Your play isn't doing anything to help town, and I regret that I was one who town read you yesterday.

TNE, you haven't answered these two of shannon's questions. Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum.

I'd like a bit more elaboration on this as well; from what I can read of your posts today, you seem to think that the way I'm acting is indicative of me being scum with PP, but you also described my play as being unlikely to come from scum who was angling for a mislynch. Has this just changed since I jumped off the wagon? If not, then why am I listed higher than PP, if my being scum is contingent on my being scum with PP? Do you have reason to scumread me individually at this point? Do you have reason to scumread PP individually at this point? Why is Drone on the same level as TNE? Last thing I can see you directly saying about him is calling him a misguided townie.

You're higher on my list because I have a stronger and individual scumread on you. Actions like misreping timelines, actions like waffling make me scumread you, it's not dependent on PP being scum as well. Drone is on the same level as TNE because You/PP are my scumreads, Shannon/Cass/Chrimi are obvious town, so by PoE Drone and TNE are in third place.

[AstralFlare]

@AF - "Also rereading shannon's list of questions there's a lot of leading questions worded and supplemented with info that implies she's scum." - - is the implication here that I'm scum, or that I have info that would show TNE is?

.
Implication is that you're townie who's very convinced that your read is accurate, whether through PR or otherwise I don't know. I'm just getting that your TNE read is super super strong, and it has the potential to cloud your scumhunting.

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: Implosion

Planting my vote back here

[AstralFlare]

I will only move off TNE if we get to a situation like yesterday, where we're at deadline and need to get the lynch. If I am tonight's NK, lynch TNE tomorrow.

Alright, no point hanging out on a case where I'm not going to get anything.

VOTE: Cass

?

I'll get around to everything else later

[AstralFlare]

IM JUST GONNA SAY

[AstralFlare]

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS GAME

[AstralFlare]

Chrimi stop the policy vote onto Shannon for gods sake. She's conf town, you're conf town, we can't afford a mislynch tonight. Put your vote on implosion/TNE

[AstralFlare]

My thoughts on Cass:

You guys are attacking her for switching votes quick. Switching votes quick is towny af. As town you want to join wagons but not to the point where it becomes a lynch, to put pressure on people and see whether their defense in scummy/overly defensive etc. And this isn't just joining wagons for the heck of it, this is joining wagons backed up with explanation on the votes and ISO analyses. So yeah no.

[AstralFlare]

4) Scum targeted whoever you fucking jailkept?

Why would scum target fucking TNE?? She's been cryptic and anti town and generally unhelpful and scum

likes

that.

Also while on TNE I just think she's town who doesn't gaf too much about winning this shit. I mean it's consistent with her meta.

Sorry I'm pretty worked up

[AstralFlare]

Chrimi stop the policy vote onto Shannon for gods sake. She's conf town, you're conf town, we can't afford a mislynch tonight. Put your vote on implosion/TNE

Also while on TNE I just think she's town

Ok what I'm just confused. Gonna take some time to chill and think about this

[AstralFlare]

Ok thought about it VOTE: TNE

The way I see it, assuming both claims are true, there's two possibilities

1) Scum targeted TNE
TNE didn't die due to jailkeep, thus explaining the lack of a night kill. The way I see it this is unlikely, since scum would have no reason to target TNE. Like I said, she has been generally suspicious, even inciting a wagon to the point of intent to hammer. The opinions and votes she expressed in day one came without much attempt to convince town to follow along, thus making her a low threat to scum.

2) TNE is scum
This one seems the more likely of the two. Like, there's a reason why you get to L-1. Implosion is right that her emotional response makes her less likely to be scum, and I've been gut reading her town for a very long time now. That said, my vote is still going to go on her. She's my preferred lynch choice for today.

If fakeclaims:

3) Chrimi scum and fakeclaiming.
Nah 75% chance she will be counterclaimed, I don't think scum would pull out such a risky gambit.

4) Chrimi town and fakeclaiming
This one is more likely, although I don't get the motivation for doing so? It's obvious that there isn't a doctor/cop pair to protect this game since Shannon already claimed JK. If someone could explain why they think this is possible to me—

[AstralFlare]

Wait I realized Chrimi could have been shot so no kill, Shannon/TNE both town

UNVOTE:

This honestly makes the most sense. Chrimi would have been the best NK target N1, as I explained someone else.

But so we've narrowed it down to two of PP/Imp/Cass/Drone

[AstralFlare]

UNVOTE:

Cass if you're town I think you're stuck in confbias on Drone. You already think very strongly he's scum, and you're interpreting practically everything he has done in a scummy light, when there could be towny motivations for them as well. Hell, wiki cautions against an ISO PbPA for exactly this reason.

[AstralFlare]

OK I can't make sense of this game, so I'll get you guys to do it instead.

Of the five possible scenarios I outlined above, which do you think is the most likely, and why?

[AstralFlare]

Also they don't find intention to hammer on wagons they are in (tne) as scummy. It's contradictory.

Hey I was on the TNE wagon and I found what you did scummy af. Town doesn't intent to hammer someone who isn't 100% definitive (READ: not PRed by cop) a week before the deadline.

Sigh now we're stuck in this Drone/Cass argument again

Also why did you unvote Cass if you found her recent stuff scummy.

And why is TNE scummier than Cass from your PoV when (Scenario 5)

Chrimi could have been shot so no kill, Shannon/TNE both town

[AstralFlare]

Shannon, is your 744 trying to push for a lynch onto Chrimi?

[AstralFlare]

I checked Chrimi day 1. No serious interactions with Rocnix/Drone, some with Implosion, Astralflare, PP (and others, not trying to be complete here) - bottomline: she does make sense as NK target,

You're making the assumption that scum will only night kill people who are suspicious of them. When that is very often not the case! I will repeat this again, Chrimi was the best target for a day 1 NK.

Why? Because she was the most aggressive. Because she was the most active. Because she was being pretty universally town read. Who has the biggest potential to find scum? Someone who is able to put pressure. Someone who is able to do so frequently and regularly. Someone who is conf town, and is able to use that credibility to influence people to follow her vote. In other words, Chrimi.

Do you get where I am going with this?

[AstralFlare]

Oh god no I read does as does not

My fault sorry

I think I need some sleep I'm exhausted
Organizing stuff is tough

[AstralFlare]

Also I really like 750
Also I want the answer from the rest of you guys- which is the most likely scenario?

[AstralFlare]

?

I said conf town bc she was being townread by like everyone at that point lol, including me

PEdit:

I mean, a more logical possibility is af trying to sound super town by sticking to current "confirmed" towns

I don't get what you mean

[AstralFlare]

Yea conf town was probs a bad choice of words there, something like "universally townread" would have been better.

Would be stupid on my part to blame Cass for jumping around votes while doing it myself.

Nah it won't. Town should be jumping on me to put pressure if anything. Shannon and I are the only ones who haven't had a wagon yet this game. (I think)

[AstralFlare]

Nah. No night kill because one of PP/Implosion/Drone/Cass targeted Chrimi. TNE clear. Still think this is the most likely scenario

[AstralFlare]

Like what makes you more likely to think that TNE is scum

[AstralFlare]

Are people advocating TNE just as an information lynch? When we have one mislynch left?

[AstralFlare]

better odds of getting the RB

why do you say so?

But can enough people agree on anyone besides TNE? Because time is running out and no lynch does not look better.

Agreed. The only circumstance in which I will advocate for a tne lynch is one in which there's less than two days on the dateline and town hasn't coalesced around a target. Failing that, I am open to a lynch on any of implosion, Drone, PP.

[AstralFlare]

My PoE goes as such:

Chrimi/Shannon conf town
Cass has very much had the same thought processes as me, so town as well
TNE is weaker town, but this is consistent with her meta- it's just a very dgaf sort of playstyle that I feel is pretty NAI

leaving Implosion, PP and Drone

[AstralFlare]

What does anyone think of pp

looking a little more towny

TNE to confirm, you're saying second scum is one of Drone/PP/I

[AstralFlare]

If anyone is going to hammer please make it fast. Claiming, deciding whether to hammer, getting last words— all these take time. Time we no longer have. There's a little over three days left to go.

If no one, we need to find another "consensus candidate".

[AstralFlare]

Yep because town!Astral totally couldn't have written that post.

[AstralFlare]

Like, why would town want a lynch??!?

[AstralFlare]

No, I was just asking the question, no implication behind it. I just hadn't seen those names mentioned much lately.

Weird, because it seems half the player base wants to lynch me

[AstralFlare]

TNE last words?

[AstralFlare]

It clears you.

Although I was entertaining the possibility of scum NKing you, like they probably tried to N1. RB could have just blocked Shannon, couldn't they?

I'll ISO some people, probably Imp first.

P.S. Ty mod for the entertaining announcements.

[AstralFlare]

A one game sample size isn't much to go on... If you're voting implosion there's far more scummy things you can base it on, I'm sure.

I used the word 'clear' since it's extremely inprobable TNE was targeted day one: just think, if you were scum, would you rather kill TNE or Chrimi?

[AstralFlare]

Sorry for the absence- real life got in the way.

@Astralflare
I'd definitely pick Chrimi over tne for a nk as a scum, but this question you just asked makes you scummy af.
Also tne's been on your trail on end day 2.

VOTE: AstralFlare

I hardly remember any contribution you've made to town, in fact I've been following your patten of posting and it really feels like you've been sliding under the radar with only showing up here and there and blend in the ongoing topic at the time.
Offering mostly rephrased context of the same content already been shared and discussed.
Then you come questioning whom would we nk'ed in between tne and Chrimi.
I mean, could be improbability scum were aiming for,
And you still mentioning it and siding with Chrimi doesn't sound too well.
Give us content, reads, thoughts. Anything to work with

The question I asked was a rhetorical one designed to strengthened my argument that Chrimi was the NK target N1. Anyhow, I'm curious as to how asking a rhetorical question makes me sound scummy. On the 'rephrased content of what was already discussed', could you please provide specific examples?

I don't get your argument: what you're essentially saying is that I am scum for asking a

rhetorical question

which highlighted how Chrimi would have been the N1 kill. I am unable to see a correlation between this and scumminess.

[AstralFlare]

I'm going to vomit posts. Page 35 thoughts:

AF hasn't done anything to make me change my read on him...still leaning town. Cass still null...I would have gone leantown, but remaining off the TNE wagon, and the quick start of an implosion wagon at the beginning of the day are a bit offputting.

You've a contradiction here which is potentially scummy. You say not being on the TNE wagon is scummy. I wasn't on the TNE wagon. And yet I'm still town in your book. Also, I would like you to elaborate on why not wagoning on town is a scummy thing to do.

Oh also if you manage to prove Chrimi's innocence, please do post the proof. I really would like to know where you get this safe feeling from.

Something something 25% chance. Do you think there's a possibility Chrimi is scum?

On another note

VOTE: AstralFlare

Any reason why? Your last case on me was ages ago.

Well then if he didn't do anything to change you're reads, what has he done to make you read him town? I don't see it..

Like, I did stuff yesterday that looked towny, then I didn't do anything today, so I'm still towny. I don't get what you're going at here. I see nothing wrong with this part of his logic.

Drone & Cass scumteam, anyways?

I think you misread. Drone was quoting PP. But very improbable. They were OMGUSing each other hard multiple times yesterday instead of jumping onto the TNE wagon like a good scum would have. Also, I don't think scum would bus that hard.

I'll be back after dinner.

[AstralFlare]

In a moment. I'll give my thoughts on the individual posts first to catch up, then try to look at the trains of thought Cass has been going down and analyze if they're towny.

[AstralFlare]

I'm reading and commenting as I go along. IE I'm looking at 36 without having read 37. So if i asked you a question here and the answer is on 37, i apologize. I just want a better sense of how things have progressed during my absence.

No. It's implosion and Drone.

Something something no preflip associations. Are this individual scumreads? What do you think of the interactions between them?

I kinda agree with Chrimi's interpretation of Implosion's play as towny.

Chrimi said implosion's play was scummy... She even voted him.

No. I didn't talk about the wagon. I don't care for the wagon.
What I said was referring the flip. Her being town messes our findings so far a bit.
I don't know what you tried to get from the wagon read when the wagon was solely made for information, which is why tne didn't even bother posting much against it.
She did give her own "town list" though, which I directly referred to in my post on af.
This was what triggered me to reread his ISO, and conclude the conclusion I posted earlier.

You come up saying I'm scum, according to?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here. I need some clarificationWhat is your main point? And what is one piece of evidence you have to back it up?

I did not lynch TNE for information, we knew beforehand that a town flip would not give much.

I honestly hoped she'd flip scum, against my instincts.

If I was scum with drone, why would I have opposed a tne lynch at all? I'd have pushed it through quickly and hammered much sooner. There was a perfectly convincing case to be made there, not that anyone really bothered.

First thing I 100% with. Coming from someone who was in a similar position to Cass yesterday, as town who didn't support the TNE wagon, I can emphatise with everything here, particularly the line in bold. I really don't think there was a benefit for scum in not hammering quick.

So: PP, Chrimi, Astralflare - shall we lynch Drone today? I mean, he is being quite obvious now, amirite?
VOTE: Drone

When I look at Drone, I see misreps so obvious they have to be careless mistakes. I see arguments I need clarification on before making judgement. I do not see scum.

That would have been a very, very very foolish scum, which you are not at least in my opinion.

Scum would have been 2-3 after they got the mislynch. Very good odds for them, I would say. I think the risk would have been a worthwhile one.

This level of directness (directing this towards the three specific people she's townreading) is, I think, indicative of scum who sees what they think to be the easiest way to win the game and is pushing it. I really just don't see this degree of strong confidence from town in this situation in mylo

I see what you mean. This is a very valid point. Like I said above, it's 2-3 and scum would be very confident right now. However Cass has been FoSing Drone throughout the whole of yesterday if memory serves me right, so I don't think a case of town!Cass voting Drone early would be too out of imagination.

If she's willing to unvote when someone mentions it's mylo, as town, she never should have voted me in the first place.

Fair enough. Very valid and very town. But you have to note that she has been FoSing you the whole of yesterday as well. It isn't just a sudden out of the blue vote, it's in agreement with what she has previously expressed on the subject of you being scum. Everything I've read of Cass suggests that she is a confident player, one confident enough in her read of you to put you at L-2.

Right now if I were to make a guess I'd say cass/drone.

Why do people keep assuming a Cass/Drone scumteam when they have been arguing with each other in so many ways yesterday and today?

VOTE: Cass

Join me, implosion?

Something something This level of directness (directing this towards the one specific person she is townreading) is, I think, indicative of scum something something.

By the way af and Cass share this "filler" posting similarity.

This was something I was voted for in my previous game as well. I thought I had gotten rid of it this game, but apparently not. Could you cite some examples of this? A lot of the time I just try to ask people questions. Relevant or not relevant, it lets me looks at people's reactions and pushes the game forward. I don't like big scale ISO reading because it's too time consuming and tends to come with a 10kg sack of confbias.

Funny, my 'townpool' is you, me and AF

What exactly have I done to make you think I'm town? I'm reading you town hard, but looking at everyone else scumreading you, I'm starting to doubt myself and become afraid of neighbouring.

Risk taking right now is not scummy, because all scum have to do in this situation is sit back quietly, sip their drinks and wait until two townies agree on the wrong person

Risk taking right now increases the odds for scum to win the game. If you're town and put another town at L-2, scum can just sweep in and hammer. It helps scum, but it doesn't mean you're scum. I think people are confusing scummy as in helps scum, and scum as in you're mafia.

I ship af/Cass mafia. You didn't make any new point just elaborated literally what I've been doing and added some words to make it sound like scummy behaviour.

Sweet. I know the second sentence refers to cass, but I would to point out it's exactly what you've been doing to me. Your case on me amounts to "This was what triggered me to reread his ISO, and conclude the conclusion I posted earlier." In other words, you read my ISO, said I wasn't adding new content to the discussion, failed to show any examples of it, and now I'm scum. Yay,

Cass is very very defensive in 898 and 899.

[AstralFlare]

Page 37, then Cass

[AstralFlare]

Wait no

UNVOTE:

Fuck what

I need to think about this. dammit

And here we have the best post in the entire game so far.

No this is not sarcasm.

[AstralFlare]

From what I've seen, Cass has several main thoughts going on at once.

1) Lynch Implosion
Based mainly on his actions in D2, which I construed as scummy as well. However, I wouldn't have advocated for a lynch on anyone at all. I think it is best to FoS/pseudovote people, but not officially vote them, so there's no way for scum to quickhammer consecutively and ezwin.
That said, I found his D3 posts very town. Cass, has your read on him changed based on his D3 posts?
Scumminess: 3/10

2) Lynch Drone

a) Based on his arguments on Page 35/36.
It is true that his argument is weak, but in that case ask for clarification, not lynch. I don't really think that reaching out to her townreads is scummy, especially when she said she thought of herself/me/Chrimi as a townbloc. Also she isn't asking her townreads, she's asking everyone besides her scumreads (Imp/Drone).
Scumminess: 2+?/10 (until Drone clarifies so I know what he is driving at)

b) Based on how Drone didn't express an opinion on the implosion vote.
This is a weak point. You say him voting me in the same post is distracting. When town could also be completely legitimately pushing their own wagon on someone who they think is scum. You say him not offering an opinion is distancing. Which is something I've done as town as well: not offering an opinion early because we don't feel a need to, or want to see how it develops. There potentially could be an edge of desperation to get a lynch here. You're latching onto any opportunity you get to push this lynch. Either conf bias, or scum.
Scumminess: 5/10

c) Called 0x40 a policy lynch before he flipped. I think this is very valid. That said, to give a counterargument, the word 'policy lynch' was very much floated around with regards to 0x40 Day One.
Scumminess: 2/10

Overall: Her pushing for a lynch on Drone is less scummy than say pushing a vote on implosion or I. Purely because we have Chrimi, the conftown, reading Drone as town. Whereas there are already people willing to wagon imp and I. Getting a mislynch on Drone would be harder than getting a mislynch on imp/I, so I don't see why she would go for Drone over us.

3) I'm not scum

a) I resisted the TNE wagon
b) I didn't target Shannon on N1
Implosion and PP both offered rebuttals to these points, which are definitely convincing on the surface (especially PP's). I don't know how much I can trust them however. I would like to see your big post on Imp. I know I've said I'll ISO him for a long time, and never really got around to doing it. However, both of these are points I can see town using as well. The first one is particular is what I as town would have said in the same situation. (Heck, it's what I'm saying now.)
Scumminess: 3+?/10 (? is for when I decide how much I can trust imp)


Yeah that's my thoughts on Cass. It makes sense for town to think the way she is thinking right now. But I'm always ready to be persuaded otherwise. (imp?)

[AstralFlare]

Drone:

Possibility exists, always.
However I read her town in every aspect since mid-end day 2 increasingly, the more I heard of her, the more I let go of the suspicions and questions I had towards her.
However that's my personal read, and I wanted to know how you could be so sure of her being towny, as an individual.

If you already think she's innocent, why do you want more proof of her being innocent? I am sure of her being town as I do not think Scum would take a 25% chance to throw the game. In addition, she has been proactive (but misguided) in her scumhunting.

I believe this was derived by my post.

Your post was a series of generalised statements devoid of examples.

Probably because I awfully felt you're scum and couldn't consider other's reads? I feel like your day 2 posts were fillers, they surely did look towny, but in my opinion they were mainly a polished copy pasted points of others.

Again, examples. I do believe I was the only person in the game to firmly read TNE as town (besides maybe Cass) all the way through.

[AstralFlare]

Now can someone take their vote off me before scum double votes me in a row?

Is it a reasonable conclusion to make that Drone is scum if a double vote on me does not happen overnight? I think scum would have coordinated during the night to find a time where they both are usually on to quickhammer an L-2. (Assuming Chrimi town)

[AstralFlare]

Also a no-lynch is unacceptable today because, duh, scum is going to kill me and that doesn't help us lower the lynchpool at all.

I think a no lynch is okay if we do not come to a consensus. What you're saying is true, but I think going into a 3-2 is better than jumping onto someone we are unsure of, which potentially gives scum an instantaneous win.

[AstralFlare]

For my hundredth post, I just want to say that all you guys are great, and have been really fun to play with so far!

[AstralFlare]

I'll get back to you guys later, esp Drone, since it's going to be long. I'm on phone myself right now as well.

Cass- What makes you townread me?
Everyone else- To what extent do you agree with my post on Cass.

Again, repeating yourself, asking a question that basically means "comment on that plz, I contribute!".

Well it's a reaction test, like any other question. If Cass can't give a reasonable explanation as to why she thinks I'm town, then it makes her more likely to be scum. I'm repeating myself as I want comments and reactions to what I've thought about. Several reactions, I think, would be indicative of scum, while others would be indicative of town.

[AstralFlare]

Crap. Didn't realize we were so tight with time.

Chrimi- you have to start explaining yourself. We know you're confirm town, but you staying silent on your reasoning isn't helping us. Talk to us. Why is Drone town? Why am I scum?

Cass-

I townread you partly because of the tone of your posts: calm, reasonable, honestly curious

Would you describe implosion's the same way?

Implosion-

I still think Cass is most likely scum because I see material reasons to townread all four but only really material reasons to scumread Cass so far that I really agree with.

What do you mean by material? Because earlier you said that your reads on Drone and I were both gut.

[AstralFlare]

uh.

Cass, do you have anything of that big imp post

[AstralFlare]

Because his ISO seems reasonably on reread.

[AstralFlare]

Cass- Yes, I get that sense of waffling as well. But don't you think scum would be more confident today, and try to push a wagon through vigourously, instead of being noncommital like a townie afraid to mislynch?

[AstralFlare]

Townies in our situation need to get better reads on the others. There are no more PR's to help us, and a mislynch means we lose immediately. So taking risks, provoking responses, forcing others to talk, is in towns interest.

VOTE: Cass

[AstralFlare]

6 days.

[AstralFlare]

but it also looks like she's trying to pocket AF.

yes I'm a little worried about this as well.

6 days

[AstralFlare]

PP, why do you want an implosion lyncH over a Cass one?

[AstralFlare]

You're scum reading them both if I'm not wrong.

Also half your evidence relies on pre flip association. Do you have further reason to individually scumread the two?

[AstralFlare]

implosion/Cass

[AstralFlare]

Do none of you honestly have any reaction to my vote on Cass, who I have been town reading for many a page?

[AstralFlare]

UNVOTE: but still FoS Cass.

I'm town and imp is town, so on the off chance Cass is town as well I don't want scum hammering.

[AstralFlare]

Cass is AtEing me hard I think

[AstralFlare]

Is that an arguement at all? And.. for what?

You're trying too hard to look like town;

It's explaining why I unvoted. I look like town because I'm town.

If you mean my thoughts towards PP, I think he is on the towny side of null. He has some really towny things that are hard to get past (his latest post is pretty much what I'm thinking), but if (and only if) Cass flips scum (which looks increasingly likely), then by PoE yeah he's scum.

[AstralFlare]

If scum hit whoever JK protected last night

They didn't. Why would they hit TNE?

why I was targeted for the NK

I think I've already speculated that.

Overall, I think it's a bad idea. All we're going to end up with is a 3-2. Which again requires all townies to cooperate, and then get 2 consecutive correct lynches in a row.

The only time I would advocate for no lynch is if we still can't agree on someone to lynch- and it looks like most of us can agree on Cass

[AstralFlare]

I think a no lynch is okay if we do not come to a consensus. What you're saying is true, but I think going into a 3-2 is better than jumping onto someone we are unsure of, which potentially gives scum an instantaneous win.

What I said is the same as what I'm saying.

[AstralFlare]

4 days

[AstralFlare]

VOTE: Cass

Town Cass would be pushing another lynch

[AstralFlare]

Implosion, her scumread.

Town would be more proactive now I think, since there's a chance they lose today. If Cass was town, I think her defence would be more impassioned, or she would try to throw an alternative wagon she really believes in like the implosion one, not conjuring scumminess from thin air and attaching it to PP. People are voting/FoSing her and she's just like "(not now, gtg, alas)."

Also where's the Post that was Promised. (The big imp one)

[AstralFlare]

Well. That's a lynch.

[AstralFlare]

Only one not on the wagon is Chrimi, so that means someone is bussing.

[AstralFlare]

Honestly by PoE:

I'm town
Chrimi town (I do think this is an assumption worth revisiting if we have time)
Implosion town (by post quality)
Drone not working with Cass (by Day 2 interactions)

Leaving PP

[AstralFlare]

Inb4 Cass flips town and makes me look stupid

[AstralFlare]

PP, if you have the time and town doesn't lose, could you prepare an argument on why you think imp is scum tomorrow?

[AstralFlare]

GG WP scum.

(Sorry Cass)

[AstralFlare]

Read the scum PT...

Did anyone else notice the serious difference in clarity/coherence between there and here?

The weird language and shitty arguments threw me off so hard I attributed them to noobtown instead of scum.