Newbie 976 - Game Over.

[Nobody Special]

VOTE: DavidParker

First time I've used the new vote tag. Neat.

[Nobody Special]

How rude, I forgot to introduce myself.

I'm Nobody Special, and DavidParker and I are the two SE (semi-experienced) players for this game. That just means we've finished more than two games on mafiascum.net, and we're here to help.

But, the Main Guy for helping you this game is startransmission, he's the IC (inexperience-challenged) player. He'll be doing most of the helping.

Hi!

[Nobody Special]

Also, I'm sure NS will vouch that I really don't deserve the title of SE :p

Let's just say I was mildly surprised.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: gandalf for having a creepy avatar.

[Nobody Special]

unvote

Too soon to lynch, especially at random. But your avatar is still, like, seriously creepy.

Oh, and koch: IGMEOY.

[Nobody Special]

This game needs something. I know!! RANDOM QUESTIONS!!

Forthwith:

1) Are you having fun yet?

2) Chocolate or vanilla?

3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

4) Lynch all Liars?

5) Math or Sports?

6) Lynch all Lurkers?

7) What do

you

think of the RVS?


I'll post my answers soon, or after everyone, depending on consensus.

[Nobody Special]

Which leads me to the L-2 vote that Koch made. I have no problem with it. If Gandalf were quick-lynched that would likely be good for town, but there was little chance of that actually happening.

Fascinating. Can you expound on why it would be good for town to quicklynch a player so early on Day 1?

[Nobody Special]

@Framm: This game seems (to me) to be starting slowly. But yeah, you'll get used to the time. Someday, you'll even come to appreciate it.

[Nobody Special]

Vote Count 1.1

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

koch: 1: gandalf5166 (6), Framm 18 (10)
gandalf5166: 1: theperson (7), koch (11)
Nobody Special: 1: startansmission (2)
Gingerrr: 1: DavidParker (9)

Not voting: Aspen, Gingerrr, Nobody Special

With 9 players alive it takes 5 to lynch. Currently koch would be lynched at Deadline. Deadline is 12:00 PM EDT/9:00 AM PDT on Saturday, July 17th. Countdown Timer.

Don't koch & gandalf have two votes each here, and not one? (Or does that "1:" mean something else?)

Mod Note: Yeah, those should both be two. I've fixed it in the vote count. Thanks for catching it!

[Nobody Special]

NS, I'll answer your questions, but I'd also like your motives behind asking them.

This game needs something. I know!! RANDOM QUESTIONS!!

The activity was lagging. I thought a fun-injection was in order. (Also, it sparked discussion.)

And now, my answers, as promised:

1) I'm having loads of fun. I'm addicted.

2) Chocolate all the way.

3) I've finished 15 here, several on other sites. I'm currently in twelve (DO NOT try this at home. I have far too much free time, and I spend it playing mafia.)

4) Yes. Liars shouldn't be playing; it's possible to win mafia no matter your alignment without lying.

5) Math. Totally.

6) Yes. However, in practice, scum usually presents themselves for a lynch without town having to resort to lynching a lurker. But it's fun to pressure them.

[Nobody Special]

DP, please don't talk about ongoing games. It's a rule that's taken pretty seriously around here.

[Nobody Special]

Also, NS, I understand that the questions were meant to spark discussion, and I think you meant them well. However, they haven't, and I just don't know how they would help in our scumhunting efforts. Seems like kind of a distraction. I don't think you're that scummy but it's something I'll have in the back of my mind.

You'll find that, on this site at least, there's a pretty good debate between factions (I'm not talking about town v. scum, here; no, we've entered MetaLand) about the value of RVS vs. RQS. Personally, I'm solidly on the side of RQS. I may dislike RVS (and very strongly) but I still reluctantly participate. I realize you're not calling me out as scummy for them, but I see that they have value, and I will continue to use them. (For the record, that is my standard list of questions that I use when I am the IC in a newbie game.)

The fact is, they

have

sparked discussion, at least between you and I. I see value in that, and I also think you're a bit anti-town for disliking something that can help discussion.

Friend seems to have come charging in and won a lot of town points.

Can you elaborate on what you think is townie about Friend?

[Nobody Special]

I think Aspen needs to get in here and contribute, and I think koch is neutral-to-scum.

@Friend: It's not your personal preferences that I'm commenting on. It's your blatant attempt at stifling discussion. (Okay. Now that we're done putting words in each other's mouths, can we move on? Good.)

[Nobody Special]

Oh, look! A convenient appearance! Just after being spoken about!

Vote: Aspen

[Nobody Special]

To whom are you directing that?

[Nobody Special]

OMG you GUYS. Learn to READ. (In exchange, I'll try to lessen the sarcasm and try to be more CLEAR.)

What I said:

@Friend: It's not your personal preferences that I'm commenting on. It's your blatant attempt at stifling discussion. (Okay. Now that we're done putting words in each other's mouths, can we move on? Good.)

Read that. Carefully, please. Twice, even. I'll wait.

Ready? Good.

Let's back up for just a moment, for context.

Friend started with:

Also, NS, I understand that the questions were meant to spark discussion, and I think you meant them well. However, they haven't, and I just don't know how they would help in our scumhunting efforts. Seems like kind of a distraction. I don't think you're that scummy but it's something I'll have in the back of my mind.

And I replied:

The fact is, they have sparked discussion, at least between you and I. I see value in that, and I also think you're a bit anti-town for disliking something that can help discussion.

That's when Friend came back with this:

The fact is, they have sparked discussion, at least between you and I. I see value in that, and I also think you're a bit anti-town for disliking something that can help discussion.

I don't necessarily

dislike

RQS, but it just seems like kind of a waste of time. That's my stance, and I think it's rather pointless to argue about it with you. However, I would like to know why you find me anti-town based on my personal preferences.

I said I found Friend anti-town for "disliking something that can help discussion." Can we all agree that, as town, our objective is to find scum? And isn't the best way of finding scum

having a discussion?

I knew you'd agree.

Then, Friend asks me "why you find me anti-town based on my personal preferences." Personal preference is more in the category of Coke versus Pepsi. I would certainly not ascribe the essential goal of this game as a "personal preference." Now, granted, the entire "RVS vs. RQS" thing is a raging debate about the best way to stimulate discussion; BUT both are

meant to stimulate discussion.

My feeling, in this case, is that discussion was stimulated. I think everyone will agree. (I personally think Friend is blowing this

way

out of proportion, but whatever.)

That's why I made the distinction I made here:

It's not your personal preferences that I'm commenting on. It's your blatant attempt at stifling discussion.

I felt Friend was putting words in my mouth by misrepping what I said about my not liking him due to his wiriting off my RQs as "a distraction." I answered in kind, by misrepping him, with "your blatant attempt at stifling discussion."

(Okay.

Now that we're done putting words in each other's mouths

, can we move on? Good.)

I admitted,

immediately after,

what I did.

Mea culpa. It was, perhaps, not the best way to handle it, but still. If you read my entire quote, in the context of the discussion, I don't think it makes me all that scummy. Juvenile, yes; scummy, no.

This post is far too long; more thoughts in a couple of hours.

[Nobody Special]

@NS, a small detail, but it's sticking. When you answered your own questions, you never answered what you thought of the RVS. But when you defended your RQS you mention how much you dislike the RVS. Why did you not answer that question in the first place? Why do you not like RVS? It should be pointed out that you cast the first vote, and offered no reason... meaning you initiated the RVS.

Sorry for overlooking that. Not sure how I didn't answer it. I think the RVS is a waste of time and I think RQS opens up more discussion, and quicker. Yes, I initiated RVS; I've had many circumstances where I've been called out and pointed to as scum for not participating. So now, I participate. Begrudgingly.

I'm awaiting to see the outcome of another game NS is in before I decide whether to tunnel him or not :p /jokes

Stop. It.

I think you bring up a good case this early against him and support your mission to further pressure him. With that said, I'm waiting for koch to reply to my post.

The other thing stopping me from voting him is I know he's currently in like 10+ games so devoting time to analyzing everything in acute detail and scum-hunting isn't really feasible. This early into the game a few posts to show you are here and active and involved may be an explanation for that. I think any case at page 4 on day 1 isn't going to be hole proof, you are never going to have a sound case as to why someone is scum this early. People just need to be pressured and discussion continued so you can get one. So continue on, friend!

You shouldn't not-vote me for out-of-game circumstances. In fact, many people would jump on that opportunity

to

vote for me. For this, you get town points.

I do think that at this point in the game, nobody is going to be able to get away with a quicklynch.

Careful, you have no idea what I can get away with....

[Nobody Special]

They seemed completely like a distraction to me and generally a waste of time. So, the point is, your questions did not stimulate discussion. I basically said that, and you called me out for it. And even so, I think I stimulated discussion well enough without your banal questions.

My questions aren't banal. I'm deeply offended.

And it's more others that are blowing this way out of proportion - Gandalf, etc. My case is based on your complete lack of scumhunting, even though you've shown you can make content-filled posts like this one.

Granted, I haven't attacked everyone six ways till Sunday (yet). It's still early.

I just don't understand. How did I misrep what you said?

You said that I said I found you anti-town for personal preferences. I didn't say that.

Even through all this, though, my original point against you still remains. You're saying a lot, but analyzing/scumhunting little.

Work has been busier than I had anticipated; scumhunting will come soonish.

[Nobody Special]

You don't like a lot of things, I'm finding. I'll stop just short of ad hom, here.

Scumhunting to come. Probably later today.

Oh, and Friend: There is no way you'll ever convince me you're not an alt. No way.

[Nobody Special]

Let's get this thing going.

Aspen:

6 Posts. 4% of total.

BWs koch, admits it, lurks, appears conveniently from nowhere, whines about not having the opportunity to talk. I don't see anyone stifling him.

newbscum

---

DavidParker:

14 posts. 9% of total.

RV, fluff, fluff, nonsense about Rogue ICs, ongoing game talk (bad!), his iso7 is still a mystery to me, thinly disguised scumhunting, more meta fluff, answers questions, bleh.

Based on my knowledge of his (lack of) playstyle, harmless.

---

Framm 18:

16 posts. 10% of total.

RV, answers, RV, AL, unreasoned scumteam mention, reasoning 100 minutes later, some analysis, more analysis, readlist, more analysis, chiding DP.

Town. Solidly.

The rest will have to wait; going to go watch Avatar.

[Nobody Special]

Oh, and Friend: There is no way you'll ever convince me you're not an alt. No way.

Think of it more as a semi-hydra. For this game, only, though, seeing how it's my first one.

I knew it!

I'll stop just short of ad hom, here.

What do you mean by ad hom? Sorry.

Ad hominem argument

Let's get this thing going.

Aspen:

6 Posts. 4% of total.

BWs koch, admits it, lurks, appears conveniently from nowhere, whines about not having the opportunity to talk. I don't see anyone stifling him.

newbscum

---

DavidParker:

14 posts. 9% of total.

RV, fluff, fluff, nonsense about Rogue ICs, ongoing game talk (bad!), his iso7 is still a mystery to me, thinly disguised scumhunting, more meta fluff, answers questions, bleh.

Based on my knowledge of his (lack of) playstyle, harmless.

---

Framm 18:

16 posts. 10% of total.

RV, answers, RV, AL, unreasoned scumteam mention, reasoning 100 minutes later, some analysis, more analysis, readlist, more analysis, chiding DP.

Town. Solidly.

The rest will have to wait; going to go watch Avatar.

IIoA, and a HUGE pile of it. You're still not doing anything useful, and you haven't answered my question about Aspen from when you originally called him out.

Nothing useful? I've just shown you one scum. I'm looking for the other. Pssh. Looking for your earlier question.

[Nobody Special]

Also, Nobody Special, your opinions of Aspen and Koch, please.

Friend, your iso6, is this the one you want answered? If so, I've just answered that in my useless (to you) post.

[Nobody Special]

(Ninja'd) Okay, Friend, I think I found what you were wanting.

Secondly, your Aspen vote seems off. You say this:

I think Aspen needs to get in here and contribute

Then, when he does come in and contribute (well not really contribute, but say something) you vote him. So...when he does what you ask him to, it's scummy? If he had continued to lurk, would you have thrown your vote down?

When Aspen showed up, he didn't contribute much ...if anything. And yes, I still would've voted Aspen had he not shown up and continued to lurk.

Lurking is scummy, Active Lurking is even worse. What Aspen did was Very Active Lurking.

[Nobody Special]

Let's get this thing continuing.

Friend:

43 Posts. 26% of total.

Walks in, takes over. Votes one person (granted, I'm voting the same person) and calls me pointless and banal. (If I were the type, I'd be deeply offended. Lucky for you I'm not.) Asks

a lot

of questions. Begrudgingly, town.

---

gandalf5166

22 posts. 13% of total.

RV, RV, fluff, worry over being (gasp!) voted. Answers questions, gets all confused at my (not so) obvious sarcasm, more fluff, still confused, re-states someone else's case on me, then attacks koch.

potential flailing newbscum.

---

koch

7 posts. 4% of total.

RV, explanation of willingness to vote, answers questions, fluff, gets defensive.

newbtown.

---

startransmission

13 posts. 8% of total.

IC intro complete with RV, delay, more delay, answers,

more

delay, MORE delay,

even more

delay, and, finally, yes, EVEN MORE DELAY.

Seriously. Go read him in iso.

Unless something changes, and I do mean in the next couple of days, here's our other scum.

---

theperson

3 posts, 1.7% of total.

Barely enough to even analyze. Therefore, will analyze later. However, if this slot follows in STs footsteps, I'll serious switch to the idea of a ST/tp team.

There we are.

I see what you mean, but you hadn't even mentioned him before that, and the only reason you mentioned him in the first place was because I asked you. Even then, you didn't call him scummy - you just asked for him to contribute. Then, when he shows up you throw down a vote. It just seems to me like you're taking advantage of an opportunity for an easy mislynch. Aspen comes across very noobish to me, at least. Newbtown can active lurk too.

Yes, after my analysis, I'm leaning less scum-read on Aspen.

unvote

[Nobody Special]

...

[Nobody Special]

ST is not just lurking, he is Active Lurking. Surely you know the difference. If he changes his ways and

plays the game

, I'll re-evaluate.

theperson is lurking, yes, and it could be real-life, yes, and that's why I said:

Therefore, will analyze later. However, if this slot follows in STs footsteps, I'll serious switch to the idea of a ST/tp team.

What, am I not allowed to have early reads and potentially change my mind later?

[Nobody Special]

Still didn't answer me about the change of heart on Aspen btw.

Yes, after my analysis, I'm leaning less scum-read on Aspen.

I don't know how to be more clear.

[Nobody Special]

I'll have to tell you tomorrow. Brain fade tonight.

[Nobody Special]

@Aspen: It's not a question of explaining yourself; it's a question of activity. When you are being discussed, especially when you haven't posted for a while, and then you suddenly show up to defend that position of not lurking, it just seems opportunistic.

Does that make sense?

lrn2read please. You went from "I found you a scum" to "oh welp he's not scum." I asked you about the specific reasoning behind that.

After re-reading myself in iso, I find that, you're right, I didn't explain it. To explain now, I decided that he wasn't as scummy as I initially had thought. My focus is now on ST.

Oh I see you also haven't thrown down a vote on a member of your lurker scumteam.

I hadn't been ready to vote; I was just letting you know my reads because you asked for them.

I don't like (yep, another thing I don't like) how your only scumreads are lurkers. ST has obviously been busy - maybe he should have replaced out, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until he comes back and posts. You're still posting IIoA, by the way. It's waay easier for scum to post ISO reads like that than it is for scum to actively scumhunt.

ST can't replace out (being the IC) -- so he really needs to get back in here and participate.

And, if you had bothered to read my question answers, you'll know I firmly believe in lynching lurkers. Yes,

generally

someone else presents as scummier, but in this case, no.

I'm really pretty sure at this point that ST is scum.

My weekend horrorshow is over. I'm off to go get blasted. I have the next three days off, and I have some comments.

While I don't expect players to be chained to their computer and have this website on an intravenous feed like I do (sometimes), I do expect a bit of contribution.

Here, we see that ST hasn't posted for almost 24 hours, after explicitly stating he had comments to make..

Let's apply a bit of pressure.

Vote: startransmission

[Nobody Special]

They can, but they shouldn't. And that's not exactly a discussion for this thread.

Why does it feel wrong coming from me? From where would you prefer it come?

[Nobody Special]

I don't know. Admittedly, I'm basing a large part of this on his IC-ness. (I'm of the opinion that ICs should never lurk. [Wait. That could make it actual lurking. Pardon me while my head asplodes.])

I will grant you that I shouldn't be doing that, but for now, I'm okay with that.

Dammit, you have good points.

unvote

for now.


...

[Nobody Special]

Touché.

[Nobody Special]

Someone less scummy. It just seems to me like you have better things to than pressure lurkers.

I mean, as scum, if you decide you don't want to bus, you find an easy target. ST, who's consistently promised posts and hasn't really delivered, is the perfect easy target. He's sounded town otherwise, though. I don't know too much about ST's meta - is he known to activelurk like this as scum?

The main thing that made me unvote was the point about ST's meta -- I really have very little (I think one game) experience with ST -- and that wasn't a newbie game and wasn't (logically following) with ST as IC.

I honestly don't have the time right now to explore STs town vs. scum meta (I wish I did; I'm rather convinced he's scum), so, yeah, I succumbed to Friend's pressure and unvoted.

HOWEVER:

Ok, reading up. Sorry this took as long as it did.

How long does it take to read 8 pages?

I swear to you guys, he's lurkerscum.

Also, I'm beginning to lean toward "Friend is too town to be town" [that argument gets me in trouble every time!].

Calling it now: Friend and ST scumteam. Mark my words.

Vote: Friend

[Nobody Special]

I am but a Vanilla Townie.

[Nobody Special]

Alright. A hammer needs to be dropped. Who's gonna do it?

You can't get much more scummy than this.

I'm obviously going to die today.

I'm telling you: Friend and ST.

Mark my words.

[Nobody Special]

EBWOP: My reasoning for saying "You can't get much more scummy than this" is that Friend started my wagon, and is pushing so damned hard for the hammer.

[Nobody Special]

EBWOP: My reasoning for saying "You can't get much more scummy than this" is that Friend started my wagon, and is pushing so damned hard for the hammer.

He's being consistent, and you've only made yourself more scummy since the wagon was formed.

And please explain why I am scum, why Friend is scum, and how you see us being scumbuddies.

You lurked through Day One; Friend relentlessly tunneled me until death.

DP, I am still just VT.

Typing this quickly to get it in before lock.

DP, please show where you stated you had this vibe on me from earlier....

[Nobody Special]

Rewording for clarity: DP, please show where you stated earlier in the game that you had scumvibes from me. I'm not re-reading, but I seem to recall you only had town read on me. I could be mis-remembering.

Preview edit: Okay, yes.

Go Town!

And:

BAH!!

[Nobody Special]

I guess that we will see what the outcome will be shortly.

If Friend and/or ST are town, look here also. This is a pointless post.

[Nobody Special]

Scum do that. It throws the town into confusion. I still think he's scum, but whatevs.

Even after being hammered as scum, I

never

admit that I am scum. Never. It's bad play, and it could possibly compromise your partner and therefore your WC.

One lies, and the other swears to it.

Mark my words.

Here's your scumteam.

[Nobody Special]

but if you are scum then we can eliminate some of the people that could be scum, based on who was pushing for your lynch.

Not necessarily; don't forget bussing. It's null anyway, I'm still not scum. [/theory]

[Nobody Special]

^ What? It's a lie that scum will not admit to being scum after being hammered?? It's not a lie, and anyone who had played for any period of time on this site will know that.

Not a lie, but you're trying too hard to not look like scum.

[Nobody Special]

I'm telling you: Friend and ST.

Mark my words.

Witness my

massive

fail.

I think I'll just go stand in the corner.

Sorry, Town. I failed completely.