Newbie 928 (Game Over)

[Chronopie]

/confirm

One previous forum game (ongoing - lynched d2 - Townie)

due to it still being ongoing I'm not allowed to say any more.

You're being too hasty, chill for a min and consider. Pushing for a quick (mis)lynch is just as bad as a slow game. Tunnelling in on a player for a bad joke at this stage is silly.

[Chronopie]

I think cove is very suspicious for that post.

No justification at this point of the game

...

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

I don't see how cove's initial reply was minimal

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

Some scummer's have several hundred, so I'd consider 6 small

3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

Are you planning to meta him?

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

Nerves is more a newb-tell or null-tell than a scum-tell

Such a comprehensive analysis of a single line seems rather tunnel to me. Building a case, and choosing to vote on it, seems like an attempt to push for a lynch. I believe that you're reading too much into a innocent statement, as an SE, this is not a good thing.

The probability at this point (of mislynch) is 7/9.

Quick lynches are not a good thing, As quick lynch = short day = less information for scum hunting.

--

Moderately active. I should be able to keep up a conversation.

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I don't see what cove could have to say about my post, as it was directed entirely at yourself, and really had no points that cove could respond too without blatantly buddying.

I don't see the tenacious post as buddying.

Confirming quickly just has to do with the fact that I happened to be checking my emails when the role pm came in.

[Chronopie]

A thread re-read (Not that there's much to read ) has forced to to assume that boberz is either a) Over-zealous, or b) scum

a)Over-zealous: the original point, which appears to have generated so much discussion, was a

one line post

, which boberz proceeded to over analyse, to the point where he was ready to vote (non-random).

b)Scum: jumping on my 'chill' statement as buddying, considering that the initial post that prompted the 'chill' statement was an extensive (and misrepping) analysis of a

one line post

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The whole Vinegar topic appears to have been hasty as well.
Boberz appears to be willing to accept one badly worded post as a PR claim?!? Assuming it is a PR claim, we have three scenarios

a) Boberz needs to reconsider, either Vinegar is a PR, in which case we'd need more analysis, or Vinegar is a scum, in which case it's a fake claim. Either way, do not dismiss atm.

b)Boberz is scum, and knows that Vinegar is not scum, so dismisses Vinegar, bc he has already found a better mislynch. and may NK vinegar N1

c)Boberz and vinegar are scumbuddies, and it's a poorly made PR fakeclaim, either for the purpose of distancing, or for counter-claiming.

If it's not a PR claim, then Boberz is being too hasty. either as town

tunnelling

in on a couple of targets, or scum planning a mislynch.

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@ren so third person writing is going to be the norm? that could cause trouble when it comes to scumhunting.

[Chronopie]

considering I hadn't posted again at the point of boberz last post, of course the case is going to be unchanged... duh.

[Chronopie]

@ren: Will you(multiple) reread the thread regularly?

Also that's going to be bloody annoying for scumhunting, considering the wiki article:

at least two personalities routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness

As I interpret this (and I did read the whole article) this means that various personalties may have entirely different viewpoints. As such this may mean that one personality will view a certain action as scummy, and will play a certain way, while another will have an entirely different play style?

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@Vinegar: actually 'We' (and associated terminology) is a second person narrative style, now that I think about it. The rolefishing could still expose a real PR. although for any CC at this point would be beyond silly. If he truly believes that you are a PR, and is mafia (or isn't and convinces actually mafia), expect an NK.

I would still call it bungling.

You're looking fairly safe to me atm. (not PR, just town)

--

Where's cove gone?

[Chronopie]

He means that in face to face, everyone can see everyone else, and, like poker, some people tend to be better than others, because they can bluff convincingly, without any tells be evident on their face.

From his statement, I'd guess that he tends to react differently irl when lying, so is more easily caught out as scum than others might be. In poker the best players can keep a straight face with good cards

or

bad, so that their opponent cannot tell whether or not they have a good hand. The same principle applies in f2f mafia, with those able to keep a straight face doing better.

As such, not being face to face, there is no need to keep a straight face. So we can show emotions freely. Just keep typing in the same tone.

[Chronopie]

1/ Newbies often expose themselves as partners early, chrono came out to defend cove (not overtly but by shifting attention and misrepresentation) this would be a classic case.

Is this not a buddying accusation?

perhaps I used the wrong phrase. You are identifying us as being buddies. partners. the scum team.

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I am not asking you to claim,

so stop falling short of claiming VT and making me think your more of a PR.

Explain why you made that post about the PR then Vinegar, what did you mean.

So stop almost claiming VT, convince us that you are a PR? i.e claim.

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I started playing in December, finished one game here and roughly five on another site. Still getting the hang (get it?) of it.

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

I don't see how cove's initial reply was minimal

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

Some scummer's have several hundred, so I'd consider 6 small

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Voting scum is a good thing, voting with in sufficient evidence (outside RVS) is not.

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Tunnelling can be committed against two people at once, assuming you beleive them to be the scum team. although I am willing to concede that tunnelling on vinegar is not readily apparent at this point in time. Poor wording on my behalf.

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3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

Are you planning to meta him?

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

Nerves is more a newb-tell or null-tell than a scum-tell

--

I raised the NK as a possibility only, I accept that may be what the scum want use to think.

[Chronopie]

I started playing in December, finished one game here and roughly five on another site. Still getting the hang (get it?) of it.

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

I don't see how cove's initial reply was minimal

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

Some scummer's have several hundred, so I'd consider 6 small

3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

Are you planning to meta him?

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

Nerves is more a newb-tell or null-tell than a scum-tell

--

Voting scum is a good thing, voting with in sufficient evidence (outside RVS) is not.

--

Tunnelling can be committed against two people at once, assuming you beleive them to be the scum team. although I am willing to concede that tunnelling on vinegar is not readily apparent at this point in time. Poor wording on my behalf.


fixed

[Chronopie]

Just a quick look in, at uni during break.

- The original tunnelling point was based on a comprehensive, stretched analysis of an insubstantial post. There is a lot more to work with now, so a strong case is encouraged.

- I agree with Boberz on this point, moar substance from kthxbye and ness. although they aren't lurking as such (yet).

- Ren has a good point with boberz trying to detract attention. only scum (and to a lesser extent PRs) attempt to deflect attention, townies have nothing to hide.

- I was merely saying that we shouldn't focus to strongly on a single player, by all means scumhunt, but keep your mind open to all possibilities.

[Chronopie]

Lurking, as kthxbye is doing, is anti-town. Not necessarily scummy, but definitely anti-town.

With the pages that sprang up since my last post, I have to say that Boberz is no longer my prime suspect.

Vinegar is looking shady and kthxbye isn't helping matters.

so with that.

Vote: VinegarEater

[Chronopie]

Feel free to consider my vote a bandwagon vote. It just means that I agree with what everyone else is saying, and don't see the point of rehashing the same case others are making.

Remember there's no guarantee that we even have PRs. So there may not even be anyone to CC (barring fakeclaims).

If we push VE to a L-1, he claims a PR, and doesn't get lynched, just to turn out (in endgame) as Scum in an F11 w/out PRs.

or we see a Cop Claim in day 2, w/ a guilty (or innocent) and possible lynch him then. and have the cop NK'd night 2.

If he's doc he'll have a hard time verifying (correct protection chance 1/6 - still chance that mafia doesn't send in night action), as a cop he needs to survive N1, w/ a guilty, verified via lynch.

--

WIFOM territory

If VE really is a PR, he's either going

a)

to get NK'd

or

b)

left alive to throw us off the trail, as a real PR is a big threat to scum, so scum would target the PR, and he's not dead, so he's scum. meaning we mislynch him, and see lylo in day 3.

If not a PR (i.e scum fakeclaim)

a)

we leave him today, he gives us a false guilty tomorrow, we mislynch D2, lynch him D3, lylo D4.

b)

We lynch him today, 1 down 1 to go.

If not a PR (townie)

a)

We mislynch today,

b)

he's NK'd,

c)

He survives so we lynch him D2 = lylo D3,

c)

he survives, we don't lynch him...

--

In a small game, claimed PRs are a liability, as the Wifom outweighs any possible benefits, especially D1. (wifom being the fakeclaim/nk scenario above)

[Chronopie]

EBWOP: several more poss. Wifom bits.

PR

c)

we mislynch today

Townie should have c), d) not c) twice.

[Chronopie]

Moar edits:

PR d) survives N1, real guilty on a scum D2, we lynch scum = confirm cop, NK'd N2. or real innocent D2...

Scum c) fake cop claim innocent (on a random townie) for a confirm, lylo D3.

-----

All wifom statements assume a mislynch today. (7/9 chance)

[Chronopie]

tl;dr

I say we lynch VE, as the Wifom outweighs the benefits of a claim D1, as a PR would have no verification.

Also, I'm announcing my intention of FOSing any IC or SE that makes D3, as they are usually a more attractive target for NKs as they are

stereotypically

better at scumhunting.

[Chronopie]

[sarcasm]look, another person agreeing with cases others have made, it's not just me [/sarcasm]

(although Cove did rehash the cases, as I did not.)

ofc NK speculation is WIFOM, just making sure that everyone knows where I stand.

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I disagree that scum lists are anti-town. It's a good way for everyone to gain understanding into your suspicions.

[Chronopie]

@Mod + all: Sorry people, home internet went down over weekend, at uni writing this. Still down, so v/la until further notice.

Reading last few pages now.

[Chronopie]

really hoping Chrono would return with some kind of reply to my questions (or really anyone's questions, seeing Sirdanilot has pointed out the same things) before a lynch.

For the life of me, I cannot find these questions.

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Chrono what do you think of Kthx

Lots of excuses in the early part of the thread, but has posted comprehensive analysis since. Townish read.

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On a related note, I iso'd myself, and I feel that I was probably overzealous myself, on boberz case. I felt at the time that it was justified, now I see that I was committing exactly the same offence I was accusing boberz of.

I announced my intention to fos any IC or SE on D3, in advance, because as non-scum, they usually pose the biggest threat to scum, due to having a greater wealth of prior experience. As scum, they're going to (probably) be better at hiding scuminess.

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VE has done nothing to redeem himself, although I think it's more newb than scummy. Not buying the VT claim though, VT claims serve no town purpose, seed wifom, and work against town win condition.

--

I say we hold off on the lynch and look for potential scumbuddies.

[Chronopie]

1)Why did you change your opinion on Vinegar so suddenly after claiming he was "town-ish" to you? Now, it seems as if you are doing it again, saying he is probably more newb than scum.

2)Why haven't you been actively scumhunting? You haven't really questioned anyone and have played entirely reactive even when it wasn't necessary.

I realize the second question might be a little loaded, but I want to hear what reason you may have for not pushing anyone at all.

loaded, most definitely.

1) his play since the "town-ish" post wasn't good, but I cannot see why scum would make so many mistakes, thus newb.

2) I prefer to wait for a gut hunch based on normal readings, and then find evidence (or lack of) via iso, to corroborate/alleviate said hunch.

[Chronopie]

1)Why did you change your opinion on Vinegar so suddenly after claiming he was "town-ish" to you? Now, it seems as if you are doing it again, saying he is probably more newb than scum.

2)Why haven't you been actively scumhunting? You haven't really questioned anyone and have played entirely reactive even when it wasn't necessary.

I realize the second question might be a little loaded, but I want to hear what reason you may have for not pushing anyone at all.

loaded, most definitely.

1) his play since the "town-ish" post wasn't good, but I cannot see why scum would make so many mistakes, thus newb.

2) I prefer to wait for a gut hunch based on normal readings, and then find evidence (or lack of) via iso, to corroborate/alleviate said hunch.

[Chronopie]

in Post 13 chrono admits that to agree with cove he would have been buddying.

You've misread the context: I said that

Cove

could not agree with

me

on the point without buddying.

[Chronopie]

[quote="chronopie in post 13 - directed at boberz"]I don't see what cove could have to say about my post, as it was directed entirely at yourself, and really had no points that cove could respond too without blatantly buddying.[/b]

[Chronopie]

I don't see what cove could have to say about my post, as it was directed entirely at yourself, and really had no points that cove could respond too without blatantly buddying.[/b]

gah, forgot to close the tags, fixed.

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Yes, I feel that VE is more newb than scum, but I'm not going to remove my vote yet, as I still feel that he could end up the scum.

--

I will scum hunt, through analysis and reasoning, rather than just throwing down accusations and unfounded/weak arguments that run in circles based on interpretation.

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Yes I feel this game is stagnating.

[Chronopie]

two games, two times I've somehow managed to rub people the wrong way inadvertently.

First time, it was for trying to push a prob. scum lynch.

This time it's for trying to delay a prob. town lynch, and not having ultra-strong reads.

what am I doing wrong?

[Chronopie]

Unvote

I'm going to re-iso everyone.

[Chronopie]

tbh this game has throughly confused me.

the iso reads aren't helping alot. No solid leads.

--

the 'townish' reference post was in reference to my own iso #4.

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I dislike policy lynching of lurkers, Lurking is either a personality trait, or due to rl matters.

[Chronopie]

after the iso:

VE as newb, no idea which side.

Liking keyblade so far, not that there's much to go on.

Not so sure on Ren now...

kthx is neutral, as are cove and SG

Sirdan is townish to me.

Boberz is odd.

Lynch list:

--VE
-kthx
cove
Boberz
SG
Ren
+Sirdan
++Keyblade

[Chronopie]

Well I'll tell you right now, seeing as I'm now at L-1...

You're on the wrong track.









VT

[Chronopie]

We are not going to hammer him so we can see him selfhammer???

Selfhammering will not help the town, i.e against my wincon

After that last post I think we have found chrono's buddy.

you mean VE? we were already suspicious of him. And no.

Ren I didnt recomend lynching all lurkers, you reframed the deate. Again.

That said I do believe lynching is a scumtell. But debate about it will slow us down.

Wait what?

[Chronopie]

@VE and 12keyblade
Post 274 was directed at boberz and was meant only to explain the reasoning behind our earlier actions.

@Chrono
Any reason for not replying to post #149 and then not responding to post #174 despite our FoS on you?

It was as much gut as a case, gut served me well last game

Looking at your ISO you go from saying:

You're looking fairly safe to me atm. (not PR, just town)

to:

Vinegar is looking shady and kthxbye isn't helping matters.

so with that.

Vote: VinegarEater

and:

Feel free to consider my vote a bandwagon vote. It just means that I agree with what everyone else is saying, and don't see the point of rehashing the same case others are making.

to:

VE has done nothing to redeem himself, although I think it's more newb than scummy. Not buying the VT claim though, VT claims serve no town purpose, seed wifom, and work against town win condition.

If he has done nothing to redeem himself then why do you suddenly think he is more newb than scummy? Why did you place your "bandwagon vote" in ISO #9?

He continued meandering down the same path, so newb slip + newb slip + newb slip etc --> scum slip trying to hide behind newbness, and my gut told me

1) his play since the "town-ish" post wasn't good, but I cannot see why scum would make so many mistakes, thus newb.

If you are not buying the VT claim then he can only be a PR or scum so what kind of newb do you think he is? Also which post are you talking about when you say the "town-ish" post?

Still moar newbstakes to the point where I'm going, even scum wouldn't be that bad... then I'm going in circles of wifom in my own mind, getting nowhere...

Yes, I feel that VE is more newb than scum, but I'm not going to remove my vote yet, as I still feel that he could end up the scum.

Then why do you unvote in ISO #23?

to make iso reads, didn't want him hammered before I could work him out.

[Chronopie]

All I have left to say is: Hope for better leads tomorrow guys'n'girls. You failed today.

Go town.

I'm using this to serve as a bah post while still pre-lynch. I've failed to find even one scumbag this game, and really need to re-evaluate my playstyle I guess.

on a side note: in my other game, which I got lynched for pushing a scummy player (and it was a proper push), is over, and I'd pegged 'em 2 for 2, posted my scum picks, and the town didn't follow through, for a scum win.

So who's hammering? and are they going to wait for VE's answer to kthxbye's question?

[Chronopie]

I was playing great attention during D3...

So I would have been messing up the Thread viewed count for Troll's strategy.