Newbie 928 (Game Over)

[boberz]

Good day all. I am most definately in for this game and I look forward to playing with you all. It would appear that there are quite a few SEs.

So as a general question to kick things off, how much forum mafia have people played before (forum or f2f (face to face))???

I have 2 completed forum games both for town and both won, I have one ongoing game. I have played hundreds (possibly thousands) of f2f games and consider myself competent at that.

May I offer one bit of advice for everyone please as well: Can we not have a really slow game then a hive of activity the day or two before a deadline that will only benefit mafia. What we should do is have sustained discussion and not be afraid to end the day if we think we have found scum.

[boberz]

Good to hear from you Cove.

I think cove is very suspicious for that post.

vote cove

1/ When Cove answered the question he did the minimum required. The idea of trying to stimulate discussion is to help town, if people only reply in a sentence providing little information and not searching for info on others they are not helping town. If you are not helping town you are helping scum. If you are helping scum, you are more likely to be scum.

2/ Also 6 games is not a small amount, it is a fair few. I fell this was trying to set up an excuse in advance.

3/ He did not explain what he was in his one game here, that is vital knowledge.

4/ The joke was rubbish. This means he must be very nervous, he is more likely to be nervous as scum particularly if he has not done it before, and especially if he is with another newbie playing with more experienced players.

[boberz]

I know I was just trying ot kick things off quickly (I didnt consider the fact the vote wouldnt count) I will place that vote for those reasons as soon as the game begins officially.

[boberz]

Quite how I can be accused of tunelling when I have only posted once to say anything I dont know? And a bad joke was only one of 4 points. So I sense you are misrepresenting me Chronopie.

Chronopie, why do you suspect this would be a mislynch. It seems to me to be a case as good as any other this early in a day (ie before it begins).

Where do I push for a quick mislynch???

Meanwhile Cove answers the points fairl well, althought the whole thing looks like it could be used to set up excuses. I will be watching for this Cove. However the latest post contains: buddying up to me (with the tenacious comment) there is no need to do this so it seems slightly scummy to me.

If one of the two posters were to be scum I would immediately turn to the other. The reason for this is threefold:

1/ Newbies often expose themselves as partners early, chrono came out to defend cove (not overtly but by shifting attention and misrepresentation) this would be a classic case.
2/ I sensed nervousness from Cove, and this is more likely to occur with two newbies, particularly if they hadnt spoken together much considering they have both confirmed quickly this is possible.
3/ Cove more or less ignores Chrono despite Chrono's post being of direct relevance to him.

---

My activity will be high, and I will regularly call people out if they are not contributing. This will no doubt include asking them questions they have already answered and making them explain things I could probably work out for myself.

Occasionally I will be busy, particularly near 6th May, but I will do my best to be on daily. I very much doubt I will go anywhere near 72 hours.

[boberz]

I saw vinegars sentence there as well cove, I kind of agree with you.

The problem is, any reads like that would be brilliant in a normal game, but in a newbie game I am always more wary.

I am more worried by chrono now, but I am tired, have a headache, an exam in the morning. So I will present the case properly another day.

[boberz]

I think cove looks safish, he addressed everything from a logical standpoint. This read could well change though. However if he were to flip scum I will immediately turn to chrono.

Chrono misrepresented my case, suggesting I only had one point,that I was tunnelling and asking for a quick lynch. All three of those points are false.

I think everyone will be safe on you after your last comment vinegar, but it was really silly.

So to clarify after this: we cannot kill off vinegar, we shouldnt kill off cove, could perhaps kill off chrono. What people make of me i dont know.

[boberz]

Cheers hohum.

What do people make of this game so far, lots to comment on already.

[boberz]

He idiotically claimed a PR. He would not have done this as scum for two reasons. Firstly it is silly because it makes them easier to catch out later.
Secondly the mindset of scum would not be to fake claim after one little bit of suspicion is thrown upon them.

He made the slip as a PR not as mafia. but I agree it was a newbie slip.

I will refuse to lynch of vinegar unless something dramatic changes. He is immensly safe. He can only now be a PR.

---

Btw there will be no need for random votes when the day begins (the whole reason I kicked off so aggressively) so I will go in hard on anyone who tries to use randomness as a defence.

---

Btw you can provide a link but you cannot talk of the game that is still running. I will not look at the link untill nearer the end when I want to do some kind of meta.

---

Now why would an IC be a noshow??? because he got as card he didnt like? Now to research the IC that never was and see if he has form for this as any character.

That said I am relatively safe on Steely Gaze as well now.

I am still looking at chrono, 1/ didnt seem to like me trying to scumhunt. 2/ Didnt seem to provide any scumhunting himself. 3/ Completely misrepped my post. 4/ and continues to believe I am tunnelling (despite being the only player to evaluate everyone so far) and pushing for a lynch when I am doint no such thing.

A nice four part case on him as well.

[boberz]

He flaked out as mafia once before because of nerves. But to be honest I dont think an IC would be nervous walking into a newbie game, so null tell I believe.

[boberz]

I have never seen scum hunting as a scum tell before??????

I am going in hard on people, I am going to find the scum in this game.

I am unfortuantly fairly certain that vinegar is a PR, explain how a noobtown/noobscum would arrive at the mindset, of 'I might say that if I were a PR'.

I put stock in meta reads, I helped find scum in one of my games through it. More to the point because I was the only one to bother doing it.

I am neither tunnelling or clutching at straws. I am presenting clear cases, I have had 4 points on both the people I have accused.

I think there is an optimum start and finish time for RVS, that is it should never occur. I have demonstrated how it need not occur, we now have two three cases on three different people, and I am sure people could make a case on me if they wished. That would be four cases in two pages, a lot better than the normal RVS rubbish.

When would you choose to lynch lurkers Vinegar ever?

[boberz]

I can find scumtells in virtually every post, it is about working out which ones are really scumtells and which ones could be written by scum. At the moment I have nobody I would like to lynch but I have two or three I would like to vote for and attack.

I do not attack random people, I have made two attacks and both have had reason behind them.

I think you are a PR because of #22 where you are even considering PR, and using it as a defensive point. Not only that you claim to be reluctant to say it. If you are less noobish than you claim then you would not have made that post.

I am not rolefishing, in fact I am a tad annoyed you revealed yourself so early. Of course I still could be wrong but I doubt it. The first person to mention a PR in a nebie game is often a PR.

I do not think I have been defensive or paranoid, where have I been so. In fact twice I have asked for people to make a case on me. I have made two cases myself how on earth does that make me suspicious.

I do not place the ability to make a case above logic. I do not rate charisma, that is easy to fake.

---

You ask for my reasons for my reasons.

My case on chrono (unchanged from when I last posted it) is here:
1/ He didnt seem to like me trying to scumhunt, scum hunting is beneficial for town.
2/ Didnt seem to provide any scumhunting himself, scumhunting is beneficial for town.
3/ Completely misrepped my first post.
4/ He continues to believe I am tunnelling (despite being the only player to evaluate everyone so far) and says I am pushing for a lynch when I am doing no such thing.

four solid reasons, which do you want explaining vinegar???

[boberz]

I am not asking you to claim, so stop falling short of claiming VT and making me think your more of a PR.Explain why you made that post about the PR then Vinegar, what did you mean.

How on earth can I have confused everyone in a couple of pages, I only made two cases. It should not be confusing. Actually getting confused too easily is a scum tell, but I dont think you are scum so I will leave that point alone.

Vinegar, you cannot ask me to reiterate my case, and then moan when I repeat the same case I had earlier.

I do not want a counterclaim I implore this loudly!!! Nobody claim there is no need whatsoever.

Yes I still suspect chrono, that is why I made a case against him in a post only minutes ago.

considering I hadn't posted again at the point of boberz last post, of course the case is going to be unchanged... duh

This is the point I was making, I was trying to make you post again.

jumping on my 'chill' statement as buddying

where did this happen???

I did not misrep the one line post. I stretched it, these are different. Of course if misrepping is the worst thing anyone has done I demonstrated at least two ways in which you did it to me. All this is as yet unanswered.

I dont see how me being willing to vote is a scum tell in peoples eyes. If this were true none of us would ever vote. Even in context I explained the vote and allowed room for defence/attack.

I am now being accused of tunnelling two people at the same time. I trust all can see the idiocy of this point.

--

To clarify. Does anyone see why Vinegar is very probably a PR, or if I am wrong, does anybody care to tell me why. Nobody has actually addressed this but to me it is obvious.

---

I hope that helps

It doesnt. if we all had your approach nobody would say anything.


---


I have answered the attack on me in some detail. care to answer my attack on you chrono (rather than take half a sentence like you did last time).

[boberz]

Btw chrono your post about Vinegar dying in the night is complete WIFOM but what is more likely is if he survives he will probably be scum, but this is actually WIFoM also, so atleast we have evened the playing field.

[boberz]

The main point that stands on me is rolefishing. I truly was not doing this deliberately but I can see how reading back it looks that way. I considered what VE did a claim and as such was discussing it as such, I thought there was no value in keeping what I had noticed a secret. However, rather than continue to argue this point I will leave it, at the risk of rolefishing any further.

Lots of what VE has done looks scummy (OMGUS, softclaim, lack of scumhunting, I am sure there is more) but I do not believe he is scum!

Steely Gaze, you say my two cases have been poor. The first case was a massive stretch I accept this it was done to avoid the RVS which I despise, I was aware this would probably lead to me being suspicious but it worked.

The second case however is real. You accept my second two points, so it is just my first two that need justification:

1/ Chrono doesnt want me to scumhunt: he asks me not to rush the day by 'tunnelling in' or 'misrepping people'. This to me equated asking me to stop scumhunting

2/ Chrono doesnt scumhunt: (you accept he doesnt but seem to allow that) we all must scumhunt, not only doe sit help us nail scum it helps us see what people are thinking and we can nail them in later days.

---

Getting confused is in my eyes a little known scum tell, in newbie games especially. From a town perspective it is easy to keep up with the logic it is all they have to think about. Countless times scum get caught up in their own POV which they cannot say out loud, hence they get confused at looking at it from our POV. I see it a lot but it is not something that is strong enough to lynch on.

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I also dont like ness, let us hope this post is good.

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Ren: RVS argument is worthless now so there is no point having it. But it being part of your case on me is not logical imo.

sirdan has had a strong start.

cove, what do you make of everything???

[boberz]

I am detracting attention from myself because I am looking for the scum.

If you think I am avoiding anything point it out and I will address it.

I am not trying to get Sirdan's favour in a scummy way, I was merely pointing out that I had read him and acknowledged what he said. I also dont like Ness' play, unless you want me to disagree for the sake of it I dont follow.

Scum have more to think about than VTs. They have to think about everything VTs do and think about whether it is wise for them to be thinking it.

---

I dont really follow VE's argument against me can anybody else explain what I have missed?

---

Nothing wrong with meta reads, so long as you accept they may be wrong.

---

Why am I scummy SG??? you said I was in your post above but didnt provide a case. Not good.

---

I am going on a lurker hunt, I am not scared!

I expect to see posts imminently from:
Ness
Kthxbye
Ren (proper post plese)

[boberz]

Ooh, my mistake. I don't mean he's accusing me of tunneling, I mean that he would if I were to form a strong enough opinion. Even though Boberz is looking ridiculous, I don't know how firm I would have to be for Chrono to accuse me.

By ridiculus do you mean I have made a case??? If not (as I hope not) what do you mean.

I accept I have been unorthodox but I genuinely believe it has been positive for the game.

[boberz]

There are 4 points which are actually wrong. So far only two of the four have even been questioned, those I have tried to re-explain.

So explain why I am so ludicrous, explain why I am wrong.

[boberz]

Vote ness

So much promise, but no delivery.

If you suspect me justify it and vote. Same about Vinegar.

All you do is put me near the top of your list and say it is because I asked questions and analyse posts. If these are scumtells I need to learn how to play mafia.

Not to mention the fact that Spring Lullaby isnt even in the game anymore. Considering you have alledgedly done a reread this should be apparent.

That was also pretty contentless. Where were the original points. All you did was pick your favourite bits from other peoples posts. Dire.

I see the value of scum lists, but just using them with a sentence elaboration on each person is not good enough in my eyes. There is four pages of info here.

---

For the record, I am no longer particularly suspicious of cove, and still have some suspicions on chrono.

[boberz]

I know I was just trying ot kick things off quickly (I didnt consider the fact the vote wouldnt count) I will place that vote for those reasons as soon as the game begins officially.

Guess you changed your mind?

I am detracting attention from myself because I am looking for the scum.

So you admit to trying to divert attention away from you? What does drawing attention away from yourself have to do with you scumhunting? If anything this is making you look more suspicious to us.

I am going on a lurker hunt, I am not scared!

I expect to see posts imminently from:
Ness
Kthxbye
Ren (proper post plese)

Don't you think it is a little early to be hunting lurkers? Also, what do you mean by proper post?

I did answer this. But I will do it again. I will answer them in order.

1/ I changed my mind, because players were actually looking scummy and scumhunting was actually occuring.

2/ I admitt continuing to scumhunt whilst being under pressure. This means looking at others. If this equates to deflecting attention then yes I am and I will be unapologetic for it. I believe I have answered all questions thrown at me (including these before) which means I can hardly be avoiding questions.

3/ It is never too early to lurker hunt, and lurking is relative so it is more important in this game. By proper post I meant, a post where you were not talking about your disorder or the RVS.

[boberz]

Ren, I now look back and it appears I did not overtly answer your questions.

What happened was the quote you have pulled out was part of a paragraph analysing all your points. But I felt my answer to your proper post question was too sarcastic when I didnt mean it to be. And I felt (still feel) like I had answered point slready and felt like I was repeating myself. Question 1 I felt I did answer.

However I apologise for making a mistake about overtly answering your questions when I actually just expected you to infer the answers from my posts. Sorry that was wrong of me.

My points all still stand. And I do not like being accused of pushing attention away from me when I am trying to find scum

[boberz]

Ness, you put me near the top of your scumlist with no valid reasonoing and without a vote, yet you call me out on an OMGUS. I am not having that.

You had a lot of time to collate a lot of info, and all you did was say I might have been rolfishing a point that I feel I have addressed as best I can without inadvertantly rolefishing further. You cannot promise us info and just give us what you did and expect me not to be suspicious.

If I wanted to OMGUS anyone it would be one of the two people voting me.

I dont think telling me you made a pressure vote, and saying you might unvote me are the best tactics though Ren, but I guess you will have to ask somebody else.

---

Ness do not use the fact you havent played much as an excuse. And certainly dont use the fact it is a newbie game as an excuse to mess up. I hope everyone saw that in #108, it was crap.

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To clarify the cas eon me is exclusively rolefishing, which I cannot explain further than I have for obvious reasons??? (What are the other points if there are any???)

---

Sirdinalot is making some very good points, and beating me to posting some of them sometimes. However he(/she?) does not push as hard as I would on some of the tells he has seen. Especially OMGUS which I think is one of the better tells in newbie games.

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Me making up my own tells eg scum getting more confused, stems from the amount of f2f I play. but it is transferable and I saw this in previous games. The tells that arent written on forums and wikis are often more reliable because there is less chance of scum adapting to them.

[boberz]

As I say I had made a paragraph and deleted it, clearly a mistake.

I felt question 2 had been answered in the quote you quoted when asking me the question. I felt there was an element of it being a rhetorical question. You were to infer the answer by the fact I was continuing to scumhunt. I now realise I misunderstood that it warranted a real answer.

I attempted to prove that I didnt think it too early to hunt lurkers, by hunting a lurker.

I didnt answer proper post, because the one I drafted was too sarcastic.

I now accept this was the incorrect way to do it, and I should have (and normally would have) answered directly. I certainly did not make my answers clear, when at the time I thought I had addressed you perfectly. I apologise for this.

[boberz]

mod: why am I in bold in your last post?

chrono, is me 'detracting attention from myself' still a scum point in your view. Now that I have properly explained that I was trying to scumhunt something we should all be trying to do?

Vinegar, what did you make of Ness' last post.

[boberz]

EBWOP:

Vinegar, what have you made of Ness' last posts.

[boberz]

Thanks Ren and hohum. I noticed the rule, but I didnt understand the significance of the bold, but it actually will really help come deadline.

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You're saying Sirdanilot isn't pressing as hard as he should at some of the tells you've seen?

Judging by your history, it's probably for the best that he isn't pressing hard as you would.

I actually said as hard as I would which is very different. I didnt say it was scummy or not, it was merely an observation.

I'm tempted to follow Ren here but right now he's still my best option for a vote

Why are you tempted to follow ren?

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Trust me Vinegar, make a proper logical case on somebody and the pressure will go away. the more you plead the more pressure will come on you.

---

That said, I'm probably going to die, but I guess I'll wait and see.

No you wont you will scumhunt and help us find the scum. Then if you die you can say you helped win the game.

[boberz]

I tried to explain why I thought getting confused, when others were not confused is a scumtell.

It is because it is harder to follow a trail of thought when you are perceiving it from the scum perspective. Because you have to try and read it from the towny perspective and respond to it as such, meanwhile run it through their scum eyes, and check it against their previous posts to make sure they are not contradicting. They are also trying to work out whether it could be spun back against them etc.

It is much easier to get confused, particularly with unexpected happenings (eg my strong start) occuring that they have to deal with realtime.

[boberz]

Fair point

[boberz]

I have seen people put themselves on their own scumlist before, so long as he was least scummy I dont particularly mind.

[boberz]

I would want ness to not have to refer to the first post, but actually read the posts. Especially considering the post had such a build up.

[boberz]

I am enjoying the pace of this game it makes it more fun imo, but I dont want kthxbye to slip under the radar.

So what do you make of everybody kthxbye. I dont mind you not posting as often, but when you do it must have lots of content.

[boberz]

Just to let you know I am here. I left my laptop in the office last night so couldnt post anything. Still there now, will try and post tonight properly. I certainly do not want a hammer on anyone before I get to post properly.

[boberz]

unvote: vote chrono

this looks much better now.

The three posts of WIFOM explanation was pure active lurking it was shocking.

He has not been scumhunting effectively.

He suggests that he doesnt need to make a case when he votes. Let me assure him he does, and if it looks like he is just copying others I suggest he reads a bit harder.

Didnt like his vote on VE, it felt like bandwagoning for no reason, it only made it harder for us to get anything out of VE.

It is possible chrono wrote that whole WIFOM thing out to try and show a partner why they should claim/cc/ whatever else. I wouldnt be suprised if it was coaching VE, but I dont really see VE as scummy.

Ness is still very bad btw.

---

Scumlists, without justification and regularly updated by all can be bad for town. But I want to know what people are thinking.

[boberz]

Ren seems to be working slightly after all of us.

Ren can I please ask you to find something original?

[boberz]

VE, you lie. You are not a Vanilla Townie, You are apparently not a PR.

You must be scum.

[boberz]

And Ren it doesnt matter when you post, I expect people to find new points.

[boberz]

So basically you are saying:

Nobody else claim VT (in this you are correct)

VE may or may not be more scummy because of his claim. (This is ocmplete wifom)

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I am happy to hammer, but I want at least one more post from everyone (I kind of last orders call if you will) as I know some people are uncomfortable with short days.

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I want the questions asked of ness to be answered first.

[boberz]

I am not 100% certain. But I cannot conceive of how a VT would softclaim (more than once, sometimes after being asked not to) so much. There is no noob explanation for that, that I can see.

I have explained repeatedly why he is not a VT, I do not KNOW but I am as sure as I have been with anything in mafia before.

That said chrono looks really bad.

[boberz]

I am not willing to put a deadline on it, because if VE is not scum it just gives a reason for the two scum (I dont think it is one of you two atm) to lurk

However I am happy to hammer

once

everyone else has posted. This is of course assuming the other posts are scummy.

I am still waiting for several posts, but I am also busier on friday and saturday so understand why it slows down.

[boberz]

Sorry It was meant to say, that is assuming the posts are not scummy.

Good spot though.

[boberz]

Let us not premeditate this hammer too much, the more we set it up the less we will be able to read from it.

If people keep telling me exactly how to hammer then I am hardly likely to make a mistake if I were scum. The same will apply to the actual scum who are reading.

That said I will hammer, and VE I suggest you get back in contact with us sharpish.

Indeed I am keen to talk about things other than a potential hammer.

So:

Ren what do you think of Cove.

Cove what do you think of chrono.

SirDan what do you think of Ren

SG what do you think of me

Kthx what do you think of SG

Chrono what do you think of Kthx

Ness where are you??? Who do you think will be suspicious tomorrow if VE is scum and what do you think if he is VT.

[boberz]

I consider chrono to be lurking massively. Even when he does post he say nothing really.

@ness @VE: My attack early game was not scummy, you both keep suggesting it was. Please explain why. You base a lot of what you say about me into how I have calmed down, surely it is only natural for me to allow others to speak once I had successfully created discussion. Please dont let the unorthodox start scare you from playing mafia well.

You also both keep asking us what you can do to look better, or making comparisons that often in truth make little sense. I recomend the best way to make yourself look better is to answer every question THEN find people to attack logically.

You have both been Appealing to Emotion a lot. In an experienced game this would get you smashed off the screen so you are lucky it is a newbie game. So I urge you to do better.

[boberz]

I often speak in absolutes because it causes greater pressure and creates a greater stir.

I do understand in my head that somebody can look like scum and not be. And that there is a spectrum etc. But I find that playing mafia much more aggresively works best.

Each to there own, if you think it is anti-town explain why and I will change if I see that as necessary. But seeing as I think we a probably both town (avoiding the absolute there for you) an debate between the two of us would be unproductive.

[boberz]

I dont think I insult people, in fact I have tried to help VE and Ness.

I like absolutes it makes it easier, and people should be able to see when it isnt 100%.

With the claim I thought he had actually claimed a PR. So I thought that made him 100% a PR. It is apparent that he is not therefore I think he is scum. So in that case I used the absolute as an absolute.

The confusion scum tell i have found works. Tis the main reason I am prepared to switch my vote onto VE, but I am going to hit chrono hard next time I post, he has been useless so far, but coherent enough to stay under the radar.

[boberz]

All on chrono.

Was in the middle of a PBPA of chrono, and found this gem that cant wait.

in Post 13 chrono admits that to agree with cove he would have been buddying.

He says "without blatantly buddying". Considering at this time he thinks buddying can only be done by scum why on earth would he say this. THIS IS BIG! I think chrono is scum.

(I nearly put 100% into that statement but pulled out of it just for you SG)

I will no longer be hammering VE or Ness or anyone else for that matter.

[boberz]

To defend my asking questions. Town hunting is as important as scum hunting in my view. It gives scum info, just as scumhunting gives scum info. But town can derive a lot from it also. Town can realise that they have no valid reasons to be safe on a person, or can question a bad read they had on a safe player.

I sense there are two people (at least) who went back and read the player in iso. This is healthy for town and should be encouraged.

However I am aware this may create another pointless debate about theory with somebody I am safe on. So I wont do this in future, not because I believe it is wrong but to avoid dragging the game in the wrong direction.

I will leave any theory/playstlye debates in the cupboard now. So that means I will not address what you said SG.

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I see no real point in listing my scummy players, it would not take a genius to work out what I am thinking.

---

Now here is why chrono is our best lynch today:
PBPA (post numbers refer to the iso post number obv)

0/
a/Misreps me twice (has still gone ananswered)
i/ I did not push for a quick lynch
ii/ I did not tunnell

1/
a/Bolds comments on my posts
i/ "No justification" I used 4 points to justify it, another misrep!
ii/ Defending cove, why?
iii/ When chrono said "are you planning to meta him?" I sensed he was worried that he had a player in me who had time to spend reading.

b/ Spends the next few lines telling me that 2/9 is not much and that a lynch in the first day might be a tad hasty (I sense he may be beginning his lurking here)
i/He defends Cove again?
ii/ and explains his quick confirm very sternly for little reason (without even mentioning the fact that I confirmed quickly).

2/
a/ Sits on the fence as to whether I am scum despite wording the rest of his post as if I am scum.

b/ Can someone over analyse???

c/ If what I did was rolefishing then this post was only inflating it.

d/ Not quite sure how Ren's third person speaking is going to stop chrono scumhunting when he never does any.

3/
a/Needless to say lurking.

4/
a/ Lurking (I am now going to consider this active lurking)

b/ Creates WIFOM with NK killing speculation in advance. Could also be interpreted as coaching.

5/
a/ Active Lurking

b/ Speaking for people, I dont like this because it means I dont hear the person who was asked answer.

6/
a/ More active lurking (by this I mean still no evidence of scumhunting, posts that arent helping town)

b/ Misrepped me again, I asked him to stop softclaiming, this does not mean I am asking him to claim.

7/
a/ Tries to explain points that I didnt care about at the time and am hardly going to care about any further on. This constitutes (you guessed it) lurking

8/
a/ Now lists a few other people's scumhunting to make it look like his own. Needless to say this is lurking.

9/
a/ Within a day changes his mind on Kthx, needs someone to find scummy, may as well use this as a get out clause. Needless to say others have already mentioned Kthx's perceived lurking. SO no new content.

b/ Vote with no reason, on somebody he was defending earlier.

10/
a/Seems a bit hypocritical of chrono to not like repeating cases of others, when that is all he does.

b/ WIFOM crazy!!!

c/ Lurking

d/ Does some mad thing with potential setups and a hypothetical VE PR claim as a reason not to put VE at L-1. Mad.

11 + 12/
a/ More Wifom, the fact he entitles it as such does not make it any more usefull.

b/ More lurking

13/
a/ Now decides because of his great wifom which I hope everyone ignored he is going to vote the person who he has flitted between the whole game.

b/ Sets himself up an excuse for a couple of days time. I hope all realises this creates even more wifom

c/ I think this is lurking as well.

14/
a/ "I know my cas eis based on nothing, I just thought I would make it anyway"

b/ Scumlists for no reason are pretty bad, but I lie in the middle of this debate, I caught scum with them in my first game so they do have value.

15 + 16/
a/ lurking (although it may be less active more recetly, I know my uni internet is bad so I will give him that)

b/ I really have given up following what he thinks of VE. I think he could be buddying, bussing, distancing and brown nosing VE at various different points.

c/ He says hold off lynch and look for suspects. But spends another post not doing this!!! ACTIVE LURKING

17 + 18/
a/ Seems to have missed the point that a newb can be scum.

b/ no scum huntgin, he is lurking again.

---

Every single post chrono has made has been scummy, and some of them have been really bad!!! I expect chrono to be todays lynch.

Once (sorry perhaps I should say if) we find out he is scum, I will turn to Cove, Ness and VE.

Chrono reacted quickly against my attack on Cove, if he truly thought it was rubbish he should have trusted it to be exposed as such.

Chrono has ignored Ness, who has been one of the most scummy players.

Chrono has been so inconsistent with VE I fell he may be caught between several tactics and cannot decide which to use.

[boberz]

I am prepared to admitt that I have misread the context of the point I made about the buddying, the other 100 or so points still stand.

ALthough in my reread I did sense that you misunderstand the term buddying slightly chrono.

maybe the IC could give us an independent definition of buddying so that we can be straight (it may be me who misunderstands it)

[boberz]

That is much better VE. I too have thought twice about sirdan.

I didnt like the way he was setting up the hammer. I do not like the way he seemed to briefly stop scumhunting, just because he liked the look of your wagon.

Unfortuantly a lot of your argument is rubbish, so make sure sirdan answers all of your points.

[boberz]

Chrono. Do you realise both those posts are active lurking???

Do you understand why active lurking is so bad???

For other reasons why you are scummy see the page or two above your posts.

[boberz]

Kthx: i do think exactly what you do that a lot of VE's post was out of context and quite simply wrong. But there were some points that I thought needed answering, and I expect sirdan to answer VE's whole post so I can see how he addresses those points (ie I dont want to tell him what I am thinking till he answers).

SG elaborates further on sirdan as well.

I was not buddying with VE I was encouraging him to continue to scumhunt, none of us can deny he was scumhunting there.

Looking for a reason not to hammer? I suppose I was. I have almost always favoured a chrono lynch. Especially with there always being someone very dodgy on the VE wagon.

I think that chrono is our best hit today. I still cannot comprehend of VE being VT, so I think he is prob. scum as well. I think Ness/12Keyblade is slightly towny now.

Ren is bothering me slightly still. No new reasons though.

I dont like Ren criticising 12Key for not putting Ness on the scum list, especially when Ren criticised VE for the opposite earlier (although I agree there were extenuating circumstances then).

---

I expect to hear this case on me 12Key, all I see is that you see I am a good scumhunter but you think I am scummy. This was the logic I criticised others for earlier, I expect a better case immediately (ie before redaing other peoples cases on me and copying them)

Who you going to vote for 12Key? I could become suspicious of you any minute. Next post should have content in it.

[boberz]

Haha, and your content is where. It was not meant to be a thinly veiled threat, it was meant to be a threat. I expect a case (I like how you failed to quote me asking for this when you quoted me suspicious) I also like how you ignored the question in the quote.

FOS: 12Keyblade, for not making a case or vote, despite being asked, and despite having two prominant suspects. I cannot tell you how dire this is. I also consider his attack on me a bit OMGUSy considering in his original post he insinuated that he did not want to kill me off because I was scumhunting.

If I was distancing early in the game, which I wasnt surely it could also be from cove, or VE. Why would I push a lynch on my partner chrono, when I could have hammered VE (was being encouraged to) or moved on to Ren or Ness, both viable alternatives. As it is I have pushed chrono as hard as anyone. BNot because we are partners but because he is scum.

I now expect evidence 12KeyBlade.

---

On a side note: what did everyone make of Ness flaking??? I read it as a slight town point.

[boberz]

Btw I also dont like you setting up a noob excuse in your first post (which I always hate and normally try to point out, as I have in this game). But what is worse is that it directly contradicts your trying to "asplain" something to me. You cannot have it both ways.

[boberz]

Just looking at that, I do not like the fact so many people are not voting.

12Keyblade has just read the game, so has no excuse.

Chrono is running scared, and this only secures my scum read on him.

Kthx, remind me, why are you not voting???

[boberz]

I will have to read sirdans posts again, i didnt really take it in.

I can confirm that mentioning the PRs is a very bad thing.

I can also confirm that chrono is still active lurking.

I am not overly convinced by sirdans excuse to begin lurking.

(for the record I also thought the game was beginning to stall. But rather than pontificating on that fact I tried my best to revive it and alopng with others we achieved this. Sirdan should know that saying a game is stallking only stalls it further. Slight scummy point.)

That said I still think it is chrono with somebody more like Ness/12kEyblade.

[boberz]

Haha this is utter crap. I have answered the majority of this in the thread, but I will do it again. Bold is mine obviously.

My case on bobzerz: by 12KB

Post 1: Generic entry post. No issues here.

Correct

Post 2: “Hello cove, how are you? You’re scum; die!” Reasons: avoiding the question; setting up a n00b excuse, didn’t provide a complete synopsis of the game in question and made a bad joke. All horrid reasons to vote for someone, particularly before the game starts. Overzealous scum attempting to either set up the “but I voted for him; I’m not scum” excuse (if cove is his scum buddy) or the “I’ve been scum hunting from day 1!” excuse (if cove was a poor victim).

You have provided no reason why this makes me more likely to be scum, you just assert it does. In fact my scumhunting is good, and as you will see in my later posts I accept this accusation had little in it, but it still had value

Post 3: Attempts to justify his quick vote.

Correct, why is this bad?

Post 4: Defends against chronopie’s accusation of a “quick mislynch.” Regardless of alignment, that bandwagon that early is suspicious and could be classified as a mislynch with no info at all.

How can the thing be a quick mislynch if we dont actually lynch??? A bandwagon it was not because I was only on it, how can I be accuse dof bandwagoning if there isnt a wagon. Why is it suspicious. I THINK THIS IS THE MOST LUDICROUS ACCUSATION YET!!!

Post 5: 1) the idea that newbie games are different than normal games is utter crap. Reads here are just as valid, and bobzerz dismisses them.
2) States that he is more worried by chrono now, but neglects to present a case. Suspicious…

Newbie games are very different, you dont get cases like this to defend in experienced games for one. But also you need to run every case through a newb filter to see how it differs, and there is usually little or no meta to read. Very Different. I will also shout hypocrite at you considering you neglected to make a case in any of your posts before this.

Post 6: 1) still neglects case
2) States that chrono misrepresented his case. False.
3) Quickly switches read on cove after seeing that lynch aren’t going through.
4) States definitively that we cannot kill VE. Bad move early without a damn good reason.

I have made plenty of cases in this game, and I have made a detailed one on chrono. I did not suggest at this point that chrono was a major suspect, just the best out of three. I sense you are misrepping me now.

I changed my read on cove, because I didnt think he was scum you tool.

I have gone into this VE thing much too much already. I think you should have seen my explanation somewhere. Why is this still in your case??? That said why is half of this still in your case I have answered all of it before so far.

Post 7: Pointless post.

lurker hunting, one of the most town things that can be done my friend!!!

Post 8: States that newb scum wouldn’t claim so soon. This is incorrect; newb scum get scared and claim ASAP. Newb town don’t falseclaim. Attempts to throw suspicion on the IC who hasn’t posted yet. Meta is valid, but still is flip-flopping something fierce. Again refutes chrono by saying he is misrepping. Is still incorrect. Don’t repeat; get new ideas pl0x.

I at no point suggested a newb town had fake claimed. And newb scum would not claim there. Where others have said I was wrong was considering it a claim, you post proves you read it how I did.

He was misrepping, explain to me why he wasnt. Others seem to agree his case was definately wrong, and was potentially misrepping. Even chrono seems to accept it is a problem with vocab.

Explain how getting people to reada flajed IC is scummy???

Post 9: Agrees that IC lateness is a null tell.

This is scummy why???, when you say agree, who else had said it???

Post 10: 1) Aggressive scum hunting is sometimes a scum tell, basically a null tell.
2) Yes you are going hard. You’ve already found the scum; it’s you.
3) I am NOT certain VE is a PR, or not a PR. This discussion shouldn’t occur yet.
4) You ARE clutching at straws. Your cases are not clear. Your four points are much like Wilson’s Fourteen; boring and mostly invalid.
5) Two cases on three people, all presented by you. All invalid.
6) In answer to the question, lynching lurkers is good if people aren’t contributing as a warning.

1/ Null tell, then why is it in your case against me you fool??? I think any kind of scumhunting is a town tell myself. Aggresive is just a playstyle.

2/ No it isn't, yahboosuck, why are you posting this?? To pad out your feeble argument???

3/ Then why are you bringing it back.

4/Nobody has yet explained why my points on chrono were invalid, I have since backed them up with further attacks!!! I expect you to do this seeing as you keep mentioning this.

5/ You are factually incorrect, VE had been attacked but not by me. So there were cases. There was also a mini case on me, so they could have elaborated on me, So you are quite simply wrong again.

6/ I was asking VE because he didnt want to lynch them.

Post 11: “I can find scumtells in virtually every post” Yes, but the question is; are they valid?
You do attack random people.
You are rolefishing
I’ve seen no cases on you; this makes you a liar. Lynch all Liars, anyone?

My whole point was that they wernt always going to be valid. So you have to pick your fights. There was no excuse for lurking was my broader point.

I dont attack random people.
I have explained the rolefishing both in this post and previously. For obvious reasons I cannot go further.
There was a mini case on me in #16. for VE that counted as a case, and my point was this could have been built upon. Even if had been untrue there is a difference between lynch all liars and lynch all people who make an error in memory. As it was i commited neither.

Post 12: “I did not misrep, I stretched.” Same thing here.
Being willing to vote is not a scum tell. Voting excessively is.

Not same thing very different thing. I do not accept I have voted excessively. I certainly think the start here was more useful than a RVS, it certainly will have spooked scum a bit.

Post 13: WIFOM. Only scum WIFOM.

I wonder whether this equates to you looking at me with scum tinted glasses. Did you read my posts assuming I was safe??? If not you must do so, even if you dont publish your findings.

Post 14: If someone is scummy, you vote them. Plain and simple. ADMITS FIRST CASE A MASSIVE STRETCH; HALLEJUIA!

In post 12 you show me admitting to stretching, yet you claim to be suprised in post 14????

Post 15: Lots of little points, doesn’t elaborate.

More of a questioning post, which would you like me to elaborate on? Which ones are scummy?

Post 16: You have been ridicoulous. Ridiculously obvscum.

You also dont explain why, I think this says something

Post 17: Nothing interesting.

Yet you still dont answer the questions posed, despite this essentially being your case

Post 18: First actual vote—on Nessa!

Earlier you accused me of being to loose with my vote, now you moan it is my first vote. I sense more hypocracy

Post 19: Good defense, nothing particularly suspicious here.

Why thank you.

Post 20: Only scum attempt to dodge attention.

I was answering a direct question. I once again follow how this makes me look scummy

Post 21: Making up tells better come with evidence; so far I’ve seen none.

I explained twice. And also explained why I prefer it to wiki articles etc. Even if you dont like my tells how does it make me scummy???

Post 22: Admits to revising answers. I don’t revise posts as town; I do as scum. Town has nothing to hide.

Start revising posts, it would mean you wouldnt post so much rubbish in your accusations. Revising helps people clarify their argument better and stop a post that could otherwise be considered lurking. However if ytou are calling me out on this, why didnt you call out VE for admitting to acting which is surely even worse.

Post 23: Deflects attention (doesn’t want to be bold, for god’s sake!)

I asked a genuine question??? I am hardly deflecting, I was telling everyone that I was in bold!!!

Post 24: EBWOP

We agree

Post 25: Asks more questions, presents nothing new.

That post was to answer apoint against me and try to help the newbs a bit. If we are lynching lurkers I would like to think I would be last in line.

Post 26: Confusion is a sign of a simple mind, not a scum mind. Either that, or SOMEONE needs to lay off.

Why didnt you say this earlier when you attacked me for it??? I suspect it is because you were too caught up in attacking me you forgot to actually think. There is more to think about/consider when scum, therefore the same size mind is more likely to get confused as scum. I still like my tell and will continue to use it; if you dont like it oh well. Explain how it makes me scum.

Post 27/28/29: Nothing/active lurkering

Again, not proper posts just answering things directed at me, or about arguments I had made. I see how it may look like lurking. But as I say if we are lynching lurkers pick somebody else, cos I aint been lutking.

Post 30: Eschews attention to kthxbye; active lurking

This one is not lurking, it is lurker hunting. I think this is a bigger towntell than scumhunting.

When will people learn that putting attention onto others is a protown thing to do, unless you are deliberately avoiding posts aimed at you.

Post 31: DOESN’T WANT A HAMMER!

Obviously I dont want a hammer when the game has moved on so fast and I dont know what has been going on.

Post 32: “vote chrono, this LOOKS much better now” Trying to look townie.

Or just looking towny. The case only got better, I explain why in detail.

Post 33: Active lurking

No I was lurker hunting again you idiot

Post 34: Quicly switches read on VE.

No I didnt. I still read him as a PR. Other than the fact he fake claimed, therefore I think he is scum, logical!!! I still think he is scum btw (when I said a player like Ness I meant him as well, but I was trying to move the conversation away from VE)

Post 35: Badgers ren.

At the risk of turning into a parrot: why is this scummy?
Do you realise in a case you are meant to explain why your points make somebody more lkely to be scum or do you just make points and hope they make sense?

Post 36: Agrees to hammer after others have spoken. And yet, there’s no hammering yet.

I also explain why I am not hammering yet, you misrep me again

37: meh

You have given up thinking at this point evidentally, I think this is one of my mopre scummy posts actually but I will let you do the leg work.

38: Agrees to hammer IF THEY CONTINUE TO LOOK SCUMMY. Dude, if you hold a conviction, you have it.

I have explained why I was holding off

Post 39: Blah

By this you mean not scummy I hope.

Post 40: Keeps avoiding the ahmmer.

Explains why again, in fact elaborates on why. This is when I began to become less happy with it.

Post 41: 1) Suggest early game wasn’t scummy. It was
2) Agains suggests that newb game =/=regular game. It is.

1/ early game wasnt scummy, you have not explained why and nobody else maintained a case.

2/ It isnt it isnt it isnt. The differece is I have explained why I believe this you have not!!!!

Post 42: Debating between town players is good; it gets ideas out there. Your refusal to debate is suspicious, considering early play.

Debating about semantics and playstyle or wiki articles or scumtells etc is bad because it detracts from scumhunting. Sirdan, SG and I all accepted this at the time we are all competent players I think even if two of us were scum the third would have questioned us when we were having that debate. So tell us why is this scummy...

Post 43: So, if someone isn’t a PR, they’re scum? FALSE

Dare I say misrep

Post 44: Finds a half-reason to get out of the hammer, and takes it.

I actually thought I had struck gold, why else would I do it that in that way from a scum POV??? As you can see from the next post of mine the PBPA was not a fabrication.

Post 45: iso on chrono. Valid if he wasn’t scum too.

So I am scummy because I created a very good case on a player I believe to be scum??? This case on me is getting ever worse.

Post 47: Switches to sirdan, who he had earlier said was town. He has now accused 4 players (at least) of being scum at various points. On one day.

Did not switch! I encouraged VE to play better. I explained why I was a tiny bit suspicious, and tried to encourage VE some more. I again dont see how it is scummy.

Post 48: Do you understand that that was active lurking?

Do you understand that it was lurker hunting???

Post 49: I am going to

Vote: boberz

. Any more questions? No? Good.

I had lots. No doubt I will have more. I expect you to address every point I made.

Post 51: I apologize; I wasn’t trying to set up the n00b excuse, though I certainly understand your point.

Apology accepted, loads of people did it, including VE and Ness so I cant really use it in a case.

@Ren: I’ve said before, I believe ness was flustered/busy newbtown.
Any more questions?

I am sure I have more questions. FOr example why did it take you three or four posts to vote, when almost all your points on me existed before your first post? and how does this vote and case on me tally with chrono being your main suspect only a few posts?

---

Something I will say is that I doubt a town player would come into the game and create such a detailed attack on a player most have read as town alligned. Si you have moved my read slightly more towny on you, that said having chrono higher on your lists detracts from this point slightly.[/b]

[boberz]

I apologise if I was insulting, maybe I crossed the line calling him a tool. Sorry.

I did not say I wanted to lynch every lurker. I think people need to learnt eh difference between lynching and hunting/case making. Scum can easily pretend to scumhunt and it does them no damage. But to hunt lurkers will actually damage scum because they are less likely to get away with lurking.

I dont think lurker hunting is better than scumhunting however I think it is a better town tell which is what I said. Although it will be more null now I have said that.

Again apologies for using the words: tool, idiot and stupid; it is against the spirit of the game. But I will say that three insults among 50 bad points isnt as bad as some players. Still inexcusable though.

That said chrono is still scum.

[boberz]

Yes because then they will have no lurkers to hide behind. They will also flush out the potential mislynches. I so not think this is one of my contravercial tells either.

[boberz]

Which is why scum wouldnt try and stop them lurking as soon as it becomes a slight fear as I have been doing. They would let it become big enough to be a tell, this can sometimes be a day or more later (gametime). When I hunt lurkers I am giving them an oppourtunity to not look scummy.

[boberz]

What I see happen a lot is untill someone else raises it as a point. Lurking is something that is disapproved of and normally gets pulled out by somebody.

Or (which I realise you think you have trapped me) untill they can attack the lurker. But they would do this later, not only a day since there last post which I did they would often do this as a smaller point among bigger points (so they can still get away with a bit of hipocracy) and they will not so often do it when they have other points to attack (for reasons outlined earlier).

Again I am falling into the trap of discussing the value of a tell with somebody. Let me assure you that I am not floating against the conventional wisdom here (I admitt that in itself doesnt make me right) and finish by sayin that ,unless somebody can explain why my view on lurker hunting is scummy, I am going to stop discussing it in this context.

I will still intend to hunt lurkers however.

[boberz]

We are not going to hammer him so we can see him selfhammer???

After that last post I think we have found chrono's buddy.

Ren I didnt recomend lynching all lurkers, you reframed the deate. Again.

That said I do believe lynching is a scumtell. But debate about it will slow us down.

[boberz]

Why are you choosing to continue to not contribute chrono???

Care to answer the points levelled at you by several of us now. ANd dont you dare reply 'I cant find any points'.

[boberz]

I don't like this at all. Also, I have noted the promise (ISOs. Content) in your second post, don't you dare squeeze your way out of it. Also, don't use it as an excuse to lurk again because I see it coming from miles away.

You myst be phsycic sirdan.

[boberz]

The point about self hammering, I agree with you I was showing VE why it was silly. You could self hammer it would make it quicker for the rest of us.

I do mean VE. And Yes.

That was meant to read: "I do believe lurking is a scum tell", pardon me mistake again. Second error on my part. I will try reading harder.

---

Now is the time for someone to hammer chrono btw, he is still yet to scumhunt.

[boberz]

I want to end the day because I think we have found scum. I notice more that atleast one other person already has a read on potential partners so we are not waiting for any info.

Nobody else seems lynchable to me (the next person having only 2 votes)

I really dont see why I would make myself stand out so much if I were scum, but I am free to be read however.

12 Key. Can I have a summary of your case then please seeing as not all your points make me scummy it is hard for me to isolate what your case actually is.

[boberz]

Why are you joining more games if you are busy sirdan??? I rarely find people's explanations for lurking good enough tbh.

But sirdan still contributes when he does post, so he is not my highest scum read.

12KeyBlade, I think all my original responses still trump your points so rather than copy and paste I will just let you scroll up if that is ok.

Sirdan??? Why after our discussion earler do you still see the need to set up the hammerer??? I strongly disagree with this, if somebody thinks he is scum and is happy they have learnt what they can from the player/day they lynch. Not a set person and not at a set time. That would only give you more reason to lurk sirdan.

[boberz]

No! If you want to do it you hit him, if not you dont. All we should know is one of you should do it, and waiting for another will not be a good sign.

[boberz]

Fair enough. I sense sirdan was not joking though.

[boberz]

unvote

chrono you have 24hrs to scumhunt I will put my vote back then.

Reason for unvote is I somehow believed his go town thing.

[boberz]

vote chrono

He didnt scumhunt. You are right theat AtE is scummy, but there was something about that post that I felt came from town, but he chose not to use the oppourtunity.

I will suspect who I want tommorrow Cove, although it is dissapointing that we have made two claim.

[boberz]

I shouldnt have unvoted. When I said 24 hours, I meant post within 24 hours. He did, I didnt like it. I realise I fell for an AtE basically, and shouldnt have done.

Now for tomorrow.

[boberz]

He hasnt said anything thus far I dont see why he would start now. But Ren is right chrono, speak now of forever hold your peace.

[boberz]

I think he must be gone. I dont know why we are still chatting, we dont have to sit here for a week until deadline do we???

[boberz]

Hi all, good game and thanks for it.

May I ask why I was killed.

[boberz]

Well done all!

[boberz]

I was reading along most of the time as well