Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Alduskkel]

Hello everyone, there's a lot to read so please give me some time to catch up.

[Alduskkel]

Oh yeah, and

unvote

if it's needed.

[Alduskkel]

Having read the first 7 pages, here are my current opinions:
Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

mrfixij: The buddying with SL is kind of suspicious, and post 148 seems like trying to cast suspicion on someone without actually having a valid reason for suspecting them.

Panamon: Bad logic. Period.

Mastin: Probably the question on everyone's mind is what I have to say about my predecessor's posts. I personally think he was just a newbie, and his posts fit with that. I don't think anything he's done can be construed as a scumtell or a towntell.

orangepenguin: Might be a scumbuddy with mrfixij. Otherwise not very scummy.

Everyone Else: Not particularly scummy.

Remember, this is just my thoughts 7 pages in. I still have 5 more pages to read. I'll do that tomorrow.

=======================================

Page 13 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (2/5) Battle Mage, orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (2/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (2/5) Crysnia, mrfixij,

Not Voting: (1/9) Alduskkel,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

EBWOP: To clarify, I feel this is scummy because it shows an eagerness to lynch without giving much of a chance for QM to respond. Every townie counts.

Oh, and SL, nice to see you again, even if you did help get me lynched last game.

[Alduskkel]

Oops, I meant mrfixij & Spring Lullaby. Post 150, just so you know.

[Alduskkel]

So, thus far, you dont find ANYONE very scummy?

Give me a chance, I still have 5 more pages to read. Plenty of time to pick up on scumtells.

[Alduskkel]

I've finally finished reading, and it took me like 5 hours... here's what I have to show for it.

With regards to the argument between BM & Moses, I'm not really sure what to think. On the one hand Moses hasn't had the soundest logic, and I think BM makes some valid points against him. On the other hand, BM does seem more logical but I find his constant joking and friendliness to be somewhat akin to buddying up to all of us. And Moses does make some valid points against him. I'm kind of torn between who to believe, I'd like to hear more from them.

In the meantime, I think Crysnia is the most suspicious. She had bad reasoning for voting for Panamon: That he didn't vote, merely FoS'd. I hardly see that as a scumtell. (This was Post 40)

In Post 118, she casts suspicious on mrfixij because he's being "too helpful." Not only is this a fallacy ("too townie to be town"), but it also means that she's trying to get rid of a player she admits is helpful! That hardly seems productive.

As noted in Post 230, she only brings up the possible pairing of SL and mrfix after they attack her.

I think Crysnia has been behaving quite scummily, so

Vote: Crysnia.

Also,

FoS: mrfixij

for reasons also listed in 230.

In any case, I'm not really sure what your case on BM is, Moses. Could you explain to me what you're trying to say?

Finally, I don't see why L-2 is such a bad thing. I think voting someone to L-2 applies a healthy amount of pressure and if you really want to you can just unvote if they hit L-1. 2 votes won't just instantly happen.

[Alduskkel]

Okay, but the remaining 2 reasons still warrant a vote.

[Alduskkel]

First of all:

Then obvious you really haven't read the past 12 pages.

I've finally finished reading, and it took me like 5 hours.

I want no more of this talk, Crysnia. I put in a ton of time for this game.

In any case, I did look at your posts again with a closer eye, and I think your reasons for voting for Panamon are reasonably solid. So I guess

unvote

since the remaining reason isn't good enough to warrant a vote.

I've already addressed those two points.

Not really. You've pretty much only explained your vote for Panamon.

I'm going to take a better look at Moses' accusations against BM and maybe I'll come to a firmer conclusion.

[Alduskkel]

I've taken a close look at both BM and Moses' posts again, and there cases against each other, this is the conclusion I came to:

-Panamon bandwagoned on Mastin for no good reason except for a "scummy vibe."
Neutral, see below.

-Rule Breaking could be either a townie trying to hard to scumhunt or a scum trying to stir up chaos.
Neutral

There's this:

Quick aside: Why isn't springlullaby backing me up on this? Didn't SL push on Schez basically because he has observed that he's only been tempted to break the rules when he's scum? Wasn't that the crux of SL's push against Schez?

Buddying up? Maybe trying to get your scum buddy to help you out?
+Scum to Moses Le Fou

Scummy statements like:

You clearly dont even believe your own arguments.

Oh yeah, I'm sure Moses doesn't believe his own arguments.
+Scum to BM

And then there's this:

Plus i think [Panamon's] reason was perfectly acceptable for a vote at this stage.

It was, in fact, acceptable at that stage in my opinion as it was still only page 2.
-Scum to BM


Overall I don't think Panamon himself has done anything scummy. But BM's response to accusations seems scummy.

To sum things up, BM has:
-Used Bad Logic, such as:

You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS.

Not solely because of it, but also because Panamon's rule breaking too. And:

Rulebreaking is not scummy. You can take this to just about any experienced player on site, and they will tell you the same thing.

Do you have any proof of this claim?
-Cast suspicion on people without backing it up without evidence.

Scheherazade is giving me bad vibes. Will carry on reading tomorrow probably.

So, in conclusion, I don't think votes for Panamon were justified, but accusations against BM stirred up an interesting response which I think deserves a vote.

Vote: Battle Mage

Battle Mage, what say you to my accusations? Moses, what say you when I say that Panamon did nothing scummy?

[Alduskkel]

That's a pretty good explanation, Moses. I see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree that L-2 is a particularly precarious place.

[impatient]Still waiting on BM; he's already posted in several other places just today. I wonder why he hasn't posted.[/impatient]

[Alduskkel]

[impatient]O Battle Mage, Battle Mage! wherefore art thou Battle Mage?
-Spoken by Juliet (with slight modifications) in the play

Romeo and Juliet

by Shakespeare

BM has been posting a lot in other places... possibly avoiding the game purposefully???

And if the rest of the players have anything new to say, then I'd like you to say it. Only 2 posts yesterday...[/impatient]

[Alduskkel]

You seem awfully keen to get the day over with... possibly trying to get that nightkill ASAP? Maybe trying to cut off discussion?

FoS: Scheherazade

I think we at least owe it to BM to let him explain himself as best as he can. If the explanation doesn't satisfy us, then we lynch him, unless we find someone more scummy.

=======================================

Page 14 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (2/5) Battle Mage, orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, Alduskkel,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (2/5) Crysnia, mrfixij,

Not Voting: (0/9)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

Looks like you shotgunned my arguments.

Unvote.

I've got both my eyes on you though, Battle Mage. Maybe even that seekrit third one I seekritly have. But you wouldn't know about that, it's a seekrit. And I'm definetly not telling you about my fourth eye... oh wait.[/b]

[Alduskkel]

One thing though:

To sum things up, BM has:
-Used Bad Logic, such as:

You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS.

Not solely because of it, but also because Panamon's rule breaking too.

Which you acknowledged, as did i, was a null-tell.

Well evidently in Moses' eyes it is a scumtell, thus to him he wasn't doing that solely because your predecessor put someone at L-2.

In other words it may be a null-tell to us but it's a scum-tell to Moses, thus he was not doing it solely because of Panamon putting Mastin at L-2.

[Alduskkel]

Let's just lynch him, then, and see what happens.

I find it very hard to believe that you didnt manage to spot the flaws in Alduskkel's case. Why did you not mention them at the time?

BM

If I didn't see them, why do you expect Scheherazade to see them?

[Alduskkel]

@mrfixij: What have I done to warrant your suspicions?

If I seem shallow with my vote, it's because my arguments keep getting shot down.

I'll post more tomorrow; I'm quite tired now and can't seem to compose a good post.

[Alduskkel]

I guess I'll make a post anyway.

Here are where my suspicions lie (in no particular order):

Moses le fou. His original case on BM seems to hinge on two things.That Panamon encouraged rule breaking and that he put Mastin at L-2 for no real reason.

On the subject of the rule breaking, see this quote from me:

Rule Breaking could be either a townie trying to hard to scumhunt or a scum trying to stir up chaos.

As for the bad vote, it was on Page 2. Can one expect a super great vote on Page 2? No. Furthermore L-2 is not a precarious position, as it's easy to unvote if you see the person hit L-1. 2 votes don't instantly happen.

In other words, I think his original case on BM holds no water.

BM: See posts 333 and 336.

Crysnia: Wants to off a player she herself says is helpful. Counter productive, unless you're scum. (Post 118)

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel: What, I'm not suspicious any more? I'm hurt.

I was tired and forgot about you.

FoS: Scheherazade

for being too eager to lynch.

I'm not really sure what the case on OP is.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm, I looked at the first 2 pages again and I noticed that before Panamon voted for Mastin the Random Voting Stage was pretty much over.

@Moses: Why is Rule Breaking scummy? It could be a townie trying way too hard to scumhunt.

@BM:

Let's just lynch him, then, and see what happens.

I find it very hard to believe that you didnt manage to spot the flaws in Alduskkel's case. Why did you not mention them at the time?

BM

Why do you expect Scheherazade to pick up these things when a fair amount of other people didn't either? Shouldn't you be accusing them too?

That said, it takes a very good player to be able to acknowledge so readily when they are wrong. Serious kudos to you.

It's only fair that you should know that buddying up to me won't work.

I hope more people post soon.

[Alduskkel]

I'm considering voting for him again. But once again I will wait for him to respond. And I'd like to hear from Moses, too.

[Alduskkel]

Not that it was addressed to me, rulebreaking is a possible scumtell in my books because scum generally feel more under pressure to perform and prove that they are town.

Possibly, but I consider it a nulltell.

I feel really comfortable with my Crysnia vote and I think people should consider it.

What is the case on Crysnia?

[Alduskkel]

sorry for my extended absence.. I got a flu shot.. but it gave me the flu.

Ouch man, I hope you get better.

[Alduskkel]

I'd like these questions answered before BM is hammered.

@Moses: Why is Rule Breaking scummy? It could be a townie trying way too hard to scumhunt.

What is the case on Crysnia?

[Alduskkel]

I am becoming increasingly confident that between BM and Ald, one is scum.

Does that mean if one of us is scum, the other isn't? Just wondering.

[Alduskkel]

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

I'll be more firm once my questions are answered.

Also, you don't have to disagree with mrfixij on everything. It's okay to agree with him on some things. If mrfixij said that cancer was bad would you disagree with him?

[Alduskkel]

I see what you're saying.

Hmm, I'm going to look at the accusations on BM one more time and his defense and then I will come to a decision.

[Alduskkel]

From my perspective, I am not doing anything different. My meta is basically "quiet day 1 and 2, yet comes out full force late in the game", or something like that.

Hmm, doesn't this give you an excuse to stay out of the spotlight early on?

[Alduskkel]

Well, admitting one is wrong doesn't exempt them from the fact they did something scummy. Otherwise if the scum ever did something scummy and someone called them on it and they just said they were wrong then and that they realize their mistake, and that they won't make it in the future, then scum would never be caught because they could always just say they were wrong then.

Or whatever.

I'll come to a conclusion soon. Within the day, I think, unless lightning strikes this game.

[Alduskkel]

Well, admitting one is wrong doesn't exempt them from the fact they did something scummy. Otherwise if the scum ever did something scummy and someone called them on it and they just said they were wrong then and that they realize their mistake, and that they won't make it in the future, then scum would never be caught because they could always just say they were wrong then.

Or whatever.

I'll come to a conclusion soon. Within the day, I think, unless lightning strikes this game.

This post makes no sense. You still haven't explained why WC was scummy. You seem to be tying yourself up in knots.

FoS: Alduskkel

BM

Huh? Where did I say WC was scummy? All I'm saying is that if you could explain away everything by saying you were wrong then scum would never be caught. Like so:

Scum1: I am scum.
Townie1: Ah-hah! You are scum.
Scum1: I was wrong then, disregard that post.

[Alduskkel]

That's a quote from Moses, fool.

[Alduskkel]

argh ffs!

I knew it was Moses when i made my original response. You responding for him has blown my mind. I don't understand why you felt the need to answer for him, or how your comments make any sense. 0.o

BM

What don't you understand?

[Alduskkel]

And now, my decision.

First of all, Moses has said that Panamon was trying to stir up chaos by getting Scheherazade to break the rules. Only problem is that it wasn't against the rules at the time. Plus, we're not talking about some experienced player who knows that even though talking about ongoing games wasn't against the rules it still isn't cool. No, we're talking about someone with a grand total of 12 posts. I don't see how we can expect Panamon to know everything about how the game works. It's why he was in this newbie game in the first place-- to learn. I highly doubt Panamon was trying to get Scheherazade modkilled.

Second of all, I still don't think L-2 is a precarious place. 2 votes do

not

just instantly pop up, and if you check the game as much as I do (and I check it several times a day) then if you see votes piling up too fast you can just unvote. Granted, a scummy vibe at that stage in the game (already out of the Random Voting Stage) isn't spectacular evidence. It isn't evidence at all. But, again, I'm not so sure Panamon knew better. Maybe Panamon just wanted to apply pressure to someone who he felt was acting scummy. I'm not Panamon though, so I don't know. But I can guess.

In conclusion, I'm going to side with BM on this one. I know I originally supported Moses, but I've changed my mind. I could also change it again. As such, I'd like Moses' response to this post. I think he should have considered his case a bit better and maybe looked at it through different points of view. So I guess I will

Vote: Moses le fou

.

[Alduskkel]

I suppose that all I really have done is shotgunned your argument, and the fact that you're wrong (in my eyes) doesn't make you scum... I mean if that did then I'd be scum for making a faulty case against BM.

Unvote.

Here are some things that I noted earlier:
-WC rode the vibe of the town. He got caught, and apologized for doing it. Backtracking scum, maybe.
-orangepenguin is essentially giving an excuse to stay out of the spotlight early on. I, naturally, do not like that.
-Scheherazade seems eager to get to night.
-Crysnia accused mrfixij of being scummy because he's "too helpful." That's the fallacy of "too townie to be town," if you ask me.
-mrfixij might be linked with SL. See also: Post 230.
-SL might be linked with mrfixij
-I don't really understand Battle Mage's vote for Moses. Pretty OMGUSy, if you ask me.
-Moses le fou seems relatively pro-town at the moment, but I don't like his arguments against Panamon (now BM).

I brought up the modkill as a best-case scenario for scum-Panamon. And while this is a newbie game, that doesn't mean that this is everybody's first game. It's simply more likely their first game on the site. I know that I've played a few times IRL as well as over a year on another site.

Do you have proof that Panamon is experienced? All evidence points towards that he isn't.
[inflation of ego]-Alduskkel is obviously the most pro-town player and should be worshipped like the God of Gods that He so obviously is.[/inflation of ego]

I think my main problem is that everyone (maybe even me) has done something or another that is kind of scummy, so it's kind of hard to decide on who to vote for.

My current suspicions lie (in no particular order) with orangepenguin, Crysnia and Battle Mage.

[Alduskkel]

Hmmm, I retract my suspicions of OP and Crysnia. Crysnia for reasons I already stated in my brief argument with her, and OP because looking at his posts they actually seem content filled, if a bit infrequent. I think he has been contributing a reasonable amount to discussion.

I still want to hear how BM's vote on Moses is not OMGUS.

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

[Alduskkel]

Now, why did you vote for Moses le fou? Were you confusing what you consider a poor argument for a scum tell?

Yes.

Now, I'm still not sure why you're voting me. You've only explained why you think my argument is wrong. I fail to see how being wrong makes me scummy?

Ugh i really dislike this. Using your bs as a defence does not sit well with me.

Way to dodge the question without answering it, BM. Try to answer questions. Speaking of which, you have not addressed my question of how your vote for Moses was not OMGUS. I await that answer.

To change the subject, I'm really curious as to WC's answer to these accusations:

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

And I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not, you can hardly bring a case against me.

[Alduskkel]

Now, I'm still not sure why you're voting me. You've only explained why you think my argument is wrong. I fail to see how being wrong makes me scummy?

Ugh i really dislike this. Using your bs as a defence does not sit well with me.

Way to dodge the question without answering it, BM. Try to answer questions. Speaking of which, you have not addressed my question of how your vote for Moses was not OMGUS. I await that answer.
[...]
And I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not, you can hardly bring a case against me.

[/quote]

[Alduskkel]

And great. . . now I'm at L-2. Honestly, I'd be more worried about getting lynched if it weren't for the feeling that all this conversation about L-2 should keep scum from jumping on. But still, I'm worried.

Alduskkel, I have to know: is this a pressure vote or are you voting so I get lynched?

lol.

FoS: Moses le fou

Maybe i was a little hasty to unvote you...

BM

What's so funny?

You completely freaked out at being as L-2. Over-defensive.

BM

(fixed the quote tags) How is that "freaking out"?

[Alduskkel]

AtoE

What?

And BM, even if Moses' case is faulty (which it is) how does that constitute a scumtell?

[Alduskkel]

BM, even if Moses' case is faulty (which it is) how does that constitute a scumtell?

Explain again, please.

[Alduskkel]

I didn't find it, but I guess that you mean that Moses is scummy because he is pursuing a bad case against you and won't admit that it's bad. Am I correct?

[Alduskkel]

And I find it interesting how BM's case on me solely consists of my wishywashiness. He hasn't noted anything other than that. Have I done anything else that's scummy? If not, you can hardly bring a case against me.

AtoE. The case lies within-wishiwashiness to the extent of yours is a significant scumtell. Everything about you atm gives me bad vibes.

Hmm, how is this Appeal to Emotion? If I said something like "if you kill me, you'll just being getting one step closer to doom," or "you won't get anywhere by lynching me," then that would be appeal to emotion. All I was saying in that quote was that I didn't think you had enough evidence on me to constitute a vote.

[Alduskkel]

You also use rhetorical question, which you then answer yourself. It isn't the most confident response.

I don't see where you're getting this lack of confidence thing.

As for talking in the third person, I would only be doing that if I started referring to myself as Alduskkel, whereas I have been referring to myself with terms such as "I,""myself," and "me."

Limited access in the next 4-7 days. Probably closer to 4 or 5.

[Alduskkel]

Errr, this is embarrassing. English is my first language. I just forgot about third person. >.>

Oh, and turns out I have perfect access. Yay!

[Alduskkel]

Wait, how is me talking in the third person scummy? I don't see how I'm "appealing" to other players.

[Alduskkel]

On the argument between mrfixij and Crysnia:
First let me say that the basic core of Mafia is an Uninformed Majority vs. an Informed Minority. The town's goal is to become Informed as to who the scum are. The mafia's goal is to be in the majority. mrfixij is suggesting that if a town lynch yields more information than a scum lynch, it is better. Information is more important than a scum lynch. mrfixij isn't saying that a town lynch is always better than a scum lynch; he's merely saying that in some cases it is better.

How do you feel about voting for Battle Mage or Alduskkel?

(both were subbed in for players that were acting like scum before they left)

I think Mastin was just a newbie. His posts reek of it, and this IS a newbie game. I'm not saying we should give everyone except the ICs a free pass because they're newbies, I'm just saying that Mastin seems more newbish than anything.

But if you do think Mastin was acting scummy then please tell me why.

Also, Crysnia, don't get tunnel vision on me and BM. There are other available lynches, though I'm not yet decided on which to go with.

I'll think it over some more.

[Alduskkel]

Oopsies

[Alduskkel]

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

I'd still like an answer to this, WC.

[Alduskkel]

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

I'd still like an answer to this, WC.

[Alduskkel]

WeatheredClown, Crysnia, Scheherazade, and orangepenguin have been prodded.

Also: I am setting a retractable deadline for Sunday 14th December at 6:00pm GMT+10

[Alduskkel]

Yeah I know... I've just had some bad experiences with deadlines lately.

One guy got lynched with 2 votes in a 17 player game (don't ask).

Another time we failed to lynch someone and then the scum got a free night kill. To add injury to injury, the night kill was me.

And no, I have not revealed any crucial information about those games.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: WeatheredClown

I'm getting tired of waiting; its been 8 days since he last posted. Holidays only excuse one so far. If he (or his successor as it may be) can answer my accusations then I will withdraw my vote.

Again, here are my accusations:

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

The crumbling is a scumtell because that in itself is riding the vibe of the town; you're going with the flow. And posts 319 and 355 makes it seem like WC was opportunistically voting for BM. But I can't explain why WC later unvoted... BM would be a pretty good lynch for the scum if he's pro-town because they could just say, "Well, BM was acting suspicious to everyone so it's not a scumtell that I voted for him."

In any case, maybe my vote will get him to talk more.

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

admittedly, I'm not as wordy as you guys are.. which is not to say that I don't participate to the conversation, and attempt to participate meaningfully. I do however tend to make posts surrounding other posts that I either agree with or disagree with and the posts should be read in the context of the posts around them.

Given that as my M.O., I wouldn't be surprised if a filter of just my posts would not be as useful as a reading of my posts as part of the larger conversation.

I do admit that I made my comment about an uphill battle based on the state of the game when your predecessor subbed in, rather than when you subbed in, because I felt like the overall impression by most players was that you were inheriting a scum role.

The votes seem to bear this out as continuing to be the prevailing sentiment.

Now you see, this is the thing i am having trouble with. When i speak to you, i want YOUR opinion, not the opinion of the majority. The majority is bound to be affected by scum, whereas if you are town, your opinion is something we can work with. I really hate these generalisations, because it sounds like you aren't playing the game for yourself, and are instead riding on the vibe of the town.

I'm still interested to hear why you think Panamon was scummy enough for me to warrant being at -1 atm.

BM

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

what happened to this ^ ??

You have some serious inconsistency issues. You always end up back at the default point-going with the majority.

I'm not sure how that post is going with the majority, BM. Inconsistent, yes, but if you mean he's being inconsistent by moving around his vote then I'm more guilty of that than anyone, most likely.

But wishy-washiness isn't a scumtell, in my opinion. Some players are just like that, such as me.

[Alduskkel]

I suppose that answers my accusations, WC.

Unvote: WeatheredClown

[Alduskkel]

I'm not sure why people are voting for BM... is it because of what Panamon did or because of what BM has done?

If it is because of what Panamon did then I'd like to say that Panamon hasn't done anything scummy in my opinion. Supposedly, Panamon encouraged rule breaking to add chaos to the game; however the rule broken wasn't even a rule at the time. So that's a null tell. Also, Panamon voted for Mastin based on a scummy vibe, and some people say that isn't enough evidence to constitute a vote. But Panamon was about as newbie as you can get and can we expect a complete newbie to know what constitutes a good vote? I'm sure a lot of you know what makes a good vote now, but did you then?

If it's something that BM has done, I'd like to hear what specific scum tell he has committed.

[Alduskkel]

So in your defense of Panamon/BM, you are stating that voting for someone based on a scummy vibe is an acceptable thing?

In Panamon's case, yes.

[Alduskkel]

Let the record show that I hereby suggest an anti-pairing between BM and WC. If BM is town, WC is most likely scum, and vice-versa.

Why? I was leaning more towards an anti-pairing of Moses and BM.

[Alduskkel]

Yeah, I've noticed that scum really like to bus in newbie games. Almost to the point that scum might look more pro-town by not bussing their partner. After all, what Mafia would be so obvious as to look connected to another Mafia?

This is all WIFOM though.

[Alduskkel]

That post was directed at BM.

=======================================

Page 21 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (2/5) Battle Mage, mrfixij,
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, WeatheredClown,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (2/9) Alduskkel, orangepenguin,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

Mod, will the number of votes needed to lynch be reduced at deadline?

[Alduskkel]

So are people voting for BM because of something Panamon has done or something BM has done/is doing.

Also, considering this game has a deadline on December 14, people sure aren't discussing much.

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations. After all, crumbling is much easier than defending yourself and bringing yourself to the spotlight. Also, in his latest post he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

In conclusion, WeatheredClown has been avoiding the spotlight and (recently) been using bad logic. However, his earlier play was good. He's been acting pretty scummy though.

Crysnia: Bad logic, really. She said she is suspicious of mrfixij because he's too helpful... only Mafia should want to eliminate helpful players. And yes, I know, Crysnia has already defended this point, but it hasn't swayed me. I also don't like her unnecessary roleclaim in posts 313 and 343.

When she and mrfixij were arguing Crysnia twisted mrfixij's when she said that he said that it was better to lynch a Pro-Town person than a Mafia. And it is sometimes better to lynch a Pro-Town person if that gives tons of useful information, such as who the scum are. If lynching a Pro-Town person means figuring out who both scum are, so be it. If lynching a Mafia doesn't give any clues as to who the other is, then it isn't as good as lynching the Pro-Town person.

But I do believe that the mislynch should result in the lynching of the person who pushed the hardest to lynch someone innocent.

WIFOM, but generally scum prefer to hang in the background and tack on votes. On the other hand, a scum might pursue a townie rabidly for the sake of being able to say, "What scum would pursue a townie so hard? That would be just stupid." But this really is getting WIFOMy, so I'll cut that train of thought off.

I'm going to go ahead and suggest a minor anti-pairing between Crysnia and mrfixij. They've had some heated arguments, and I find it somewhat unlikely that they share the same alignment. But this isn't absolute; I'm just saying that it is fairly likely.

mrfixij: Good logic, though his case on Scheherazade was weak, as he admitted. I'm getting a town read.

orangepenguin: Other than the excuse to stay quiet early on, he seems like a good and logical player. More posts from him would be nice.

@mrfixij:

Let the record show that I hereby suggest an anti-pairing between BM and WC. If BM is town, WC is most likely scum, and vice-versa.

Why do you think this is so?

Mod, please prod Scheherazade (last post was 12 days ago, and though he said he was V/LA, even allowing that he should have posted 7 days ago) and SL (last post was 6 days ago). Optionally, please prod BM (last post was 2 days ago) and OP (last post was 3 days ago).

All that said...

Minor FoS: orangepenguin
Regular FoS: Crysnia
Vote: WeatheredClown

[Alduskkel]

Here's an idea: everyone gives their opinions on everyone else, and details why they are or aren't suspicious of a particular person.

I'll try and get the others I didn't cover tomorrow.

[Alduskkel]

I think that after enough real days on the same day.. everything kind of turns to mud..

so that's why I'm just going to stick with my original mrfixitj vote (one of the few people who I've suspected whose account hasn't changed hands)...

Not sure exactly what all the fuss is about "riding the town vide"...
When I made a decision that wasn't entirely based on my own reasoning and then it was pointed out to me, I owned up to it, went back and read threads myself, and changed my vote..

That doesn't seem like "crumbling" to me rather than being big enough to admit that I could have read the situation incorrectly.

Answer this question for me: Where did you ride the vibe of the Town? What I'm trying to say is that I don't think you have been riding the vibe, but you went ahead and didn't defend yourself. We all know that if someone gets into an argument about something they did (or didn't do) then it draws attention to them. Scum don't want that.

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Is that *really* WIFOM?
Isn't it just making a good guess on what the scum is likely to be doing? (not acting as a unified front this early in the game)...

I would think that WIFOM would be then saying..
"Oh-ho-ho, that's exactly what they WOULD do because that's the last thing that they'd expect!!"

That's at least by my understanding of the term.

It is WIFOM. The scum might have voted together because what scum would be so dumb as to vote together? But wait, since that means they're less suspicious if they do something that's an obvious scum tell, the Town should be suspicious of people voting together. But since that's the obvious thing to do for scum, they won't do it.

And so on.

Review of the other 4 players will come soon.

[Alduskkel]

springlullaby: Null read, need more posts.

Scheherazade: Logical and Pro-Town. As to the rule breaking thing:
#1: mrfixij and Panamon both wanted him to give an explanation. So he did.
#2: It was not against the rules at the time.
On the other hand, Scheherazade should have known better. It is my understanding that he is an IC. Though I guess ICs make mistakes too; just not as much as newbies (I would hope). I don't really know how rule breaking benefits scum anyway.

Not enough time for Moses and BM. The reason that this is taking so long is because before making a statement about the player I re-read all of their posts.

Also, greetings CF Riot! I'm sure you know me as the guy who got lynched Day 1 in Newbie 681. Sorry you got NK'd.

I hope you read the thread fast, though if you read as slow as me it'll take forever.

[Alduskkel]

Mod, please prod [...] SL (last post was 6 days ago).

This was 3 days ago. Assuming that vollkan prodded SL, SL might need a replacement.

And now, Moses le fou.

I didn't think he was very logical early on, but he's definitely improved.

This might seem like a 180° turn, but I think his case on BM is actually legit. Let's look at the core reasons.

-Panamon bandwagoned. I know I said this was probably just newbishness, but I've changed my mind. Bandwagoning is bandwagoning.

-Panamon caused Scheherazade to... well I'll let Moses speak for himself.

Look at what [Panamon] did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy).

...
Look at what he did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy). In and of itself, I did not find it incredibly scummy (which is why I did not vote for Panamon while that was going on).

Isn't the other option here to claim that responding to that would be discussing a different running game, and so it should be removed from the table?

That's what I mean by "poorly defend himself." If Schez did so, Panamon could have easily accused Schez of dodging the issue. It would have been the right thing to do, but Panamon would still have the advantage. And that's what I mean by Panamon pushing Schez to break the rules being scummy. Schez had to do so in order to get him off his back. Otherwise, it gave Panamon an easy wagon to lead and I think that if Panamon hadn't backed off when Volkan intervened, Schez would be lynched right now.

So in conclusion I wouldn't mind lynching BM, but WC seems scummier. In addition to my previous accusations (which he has not bothered to address) he... well mrfixij said it so well I might as well quote him again.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim.

A scum claim might be going too far, but the point remains.

So yeah, Moses has been logical most of the game and has a good case on BM, though not as good as the one I've got on WC (in my opinion).

You should really try and defend yourself WC; if you don't, chances are you will be deadline lynched, assuming votes don't change between now and the 14th.

Discussion really needs to pick up.

I'll look at BM closer on Friday or Saturday. Maybe I'll pick up on scumtells that will convince me he is a better lynch than WC. Maybe.

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). In a recent postof his he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

[Alduskkel]

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim.

And that's why it's a scum tell.

[Alduskkel]

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

I think that I was saying in a previous post that I don't think that this is WIFOM, rather as you said, "We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?"" seems reasonable to me... although here I see that you're trying to throw suspicion onto BM in case mrfixij gets voted off today... more evidence that you and mrfixij are the scum? I doubt it could possibly be that easy, but interesting none the less.

It's WIFOM because if mrfixij and BM were scum together, and one was revealed to be scum, the other could just say, "What scum would be so obvious as to agree with another scum?" which is WIFOM because they might have agreed with the other scum just so they could make that defense.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

I haven't liked mrfixij ever since he said that somebody was shady for claiming somebody else was shady for using FOS, when they didn't appear shady to me at all.. This began a series of conclusions that he was coming to that I felt like reaching.. so I think that mrfixij is the vote that is most true to my opinions.

I assume you're talkng about Panamon a.k.a. QuestionMark a.k.a. Battle Mage.

See, mrfixij thought it was shady of Panamon to FoS without a vote because it means that Panamon might have been trying to avoid being connected with anything, thus meaning that if he was scum it would be harder to dig up evidence on him, at least via voting record.

And what do you mean by "a series of conclusions"?

[Alduskkel]

Hm, I don't think WC reads like scum at all.

Why?

I'm going to go ahead and reread BM's posts and then give my thoughts about him.

[Alduskkel]

Lo, it is my analysis of Battle Mage!!

I don't think he's done anything scummy, but Panamon has. Let's review:
Panamon has
-Bandwagoned
-Tried to avoid being connected to any bandwagon, as evidence by his hesitance to vote while still spreading suspicion with a FoS
-Put Scheherazade (now Riot) in a position where no matter what he did he would come out looking scummy

I don't think BM has been exactly the pinnacle of logic, but being illogical is not a scum tell.

So Panamon was scummy, but BM isn't. WeatheredClown, on the other hand, has been committing scum tells recently. So my vote stands.

One thing I've noticed:

Everytime you [me, Alduskkel] seem like you might actually make a stand on something, you immediately crumble and go back to riding the fence. I really feel uncomfortable with your constant non-commitalness, and how you always want to keep your options open.

But then later on:

I owe this game so much, and am a bad bad IC.

At this point of the game, I feel totally disconnected, I'm giving this a reread. I've noticed while skimming over the last page that Crysnia's has been stepping up a bit, so I'd like to know what has come of her suspicion of me.

I totally do not like that last post from mrfixij but I'll let people answer for themselves.

I also do not like BM changing vote after vote, I remember town BM being more fixated and affirmative than that.

See Return of the Mafia. One of the my favourite protown performances ever. i jumped from player to player there too. It's a protown play which really pays off if people can commit to it.

BM

In one you say that my crumbling is a scum tell and in the other you say that your vote hopping was Pro-Town. Naturally vote hopping is closely related to crumbling, since you have to give up one suspect for another.

And so concludes my analysis of players.

WC, if you're going to make any last-defense-type posts, you better do it soon because we have less than 7.5 hours until deadline.

But I doubt you can convince me, since riding the vibe of the Town is a pretty serious scum tell, and you yourself admit to doing it.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Crysnia

for reasons listed in Post 509.

Moses: Why did you feel the need to hammer WC? He was going to be lynched anyway.

I stand by WC's lynch on the basis that he was acting scummy.

Nothing to say about the night kill.

[Alduskkel]

Don't get fatalistic, Crysnia.

Here are my accusations:
-You've twisted mrfixij's words.
-You wanted to kill off a helpful player.

Can you answer those two?

[Alduskkel]

When she and mrfixij were arguing Crysnia twisted mrfixij's words when she said that he said that it was better to lynch a Pro-Town person than a Mafia.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Battle Mage

Why?

[Alduskkel]

The approach to the game you [mrfixij] are advocating is to lynch the town rather than the scum on d1.

Here. mrfixij never said it was inherently better to lynch a Town person than a Mafia.

Is that a good enough example?

Right now what I think we have going on is that we have one mafia player being really active and the other lurking.

Is that an accusation? Because I am certainly active. I presume the "other" would be OP.

I would normally be suspicious of OP except that mrfixij said:

Judging by the other games I've played with orange, he's fitting his meta perfectly right now. 1-2 pages of posts for 10+ pages of discussion, generally 1 liners and minor contributions unless the discussion shifts directly to him.

[Alduskkel]

But he never said it was

inherently

better. That's what you were trying to imply in my example.

[Alduskkel]

Oops, simulpost. It was directed at Crysnia.

[Alduskkel]

CF Riot: I'm just trying to point out that Crysnia did indeed twist mrfixij's words.

[Alduskkel]

If Crysnia said, "You know what Aldi, you're right. I guess I did twist his words," do you think that warrants a vote on her?

I'm not really sure what you mean here.

If she somehow convinced you beyond a shadow of a doubt that she did not twist Fixit's words, would you still be voting her?

No.

[Alduskkel]

Then what do you mean here:

The approach to the game you [mrfixij] are advocating is to lynch the town rather than the scum on d1.

[Alduskkel]

The way that I understood what he was saying was that it was better to lynch a townie because according to him you had more information to go on for D2 rather than lynching a scum and still having nothing to go on D2.

Then at best you misinterpreted him and at worst you were twisting his words because he did not say that.

[Alduskkel]

So we agree on what mrfixij said, but earlier you said that he said that it was better to lynch Town than Scum.

[Alduskkel]

Let's take a step back for a moment.

mrfixij's statement was that a mislynch is better than an accurate lynch if it yields more information. He says this in Post 449.

But then you twisted it around and claimed that he was saying it was always better to lynch a Town person in Post 450.

So, in conclusion, you twisted his words.

[Alduskkel]

Damnit, OP somehow got 2 posts in before mine...

[Alduskkel]

I really didn't think WC was the scummiest person.

Does this mean that you did indeed think he was scummy?

And please bear in mind that being on a Town lynch doesn't make you scum. Case in point with mrfixij.

Interesting points about SL.

Adulskki.

Oh come on.

[Alduskkel]

^You can say that again. And you did! Heh.

[Alduskkel]

Moses: What do you think of my case against Crysnia?

I'm not really sure what to make of your hammer.

[Alduskkel]

Aldy, do you have any read on OP?

Normally I would be suspicious of OP due to his pre-placed excuse that essentially gives him something of a pass for the first two days (Post 379) but I'm not due to something mrfixij said in Post 272:

Judging by the other games I've played with orange, he's fitting his meta perfectly right now. 1-2 pages of posts for 10+ pages of discussion, generally 1 liners and minor contributions unless the discussion shifts directly to him.

So yeah, that pretty much excuses OP's behavior.

Might want to ask BM about OP, given that OP says BM has played with him before, as noted in Post 379. He probably has a good idea of OP's play style.

[Alduskkel]

V/LA dec 20 to janv 2

I read thread often, post less often.

I have no good POV on this game. Too much WIFOM. Performance anxiety maybe.

BUT I've decided that OP is the most likely scum right now.

Day 1 was less than stellar, and his 577 feels way off.

I'm no longer sold on crynia scum, I think it is really her personality.

I don't like Alduskkel but last time I played with him, I was wrong in my read.

Vote OP

What don't you like about OP? What's wrong with his Day 1 play? What's wrong with Post 577? What don't you like about me?

[Alduskkel]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

Why do you claim that 'riding the vibe of the town' is a reach, when the person the comment was made about, has admitted that it is a valid criticism?

BM

Sorry, I meant that paragraph from your post was a reach. That whole viewing the town as a separate entity bit.

Anyways, in the interest of consensus, I'll switch my vote over.

Unvote
Vote: WeatheredClown

Eurgh.

I hate to think of this as a scumtell, but given WC's role, it doesnt sit well with me.

How close were we to the deadline?

BM

Mod:

Votecount at the top of this page needs editing.

I'm actually glad Fixit died, (no offense to you personally =]) because I thought he was probable scum today. He was crying "cop" a lot D1, which made me think he was cop at first. Then when WC flipped I thought Fixit might have been scum trying to fake-crumb cop (WC had been voting Fixit, so I figured he might have picked up on this as well.) So there's my useless insights from yesterday.

FoS: CF Riot

I was just about to say that Mrfixjj dying was a towntell for you, given that you had attacked him just before the end of the day. But if you felt he was a Cop, that gives you some motive.

Moses has some explaining to do for hammering a Cop pre-claim. That's the big issue for today I think.

I dont think his role should figure into it too much. Regardless of affiliation, he couldnt have known WC's role.

BM

The stuff in italics seem to contradict each other.

=======================================

Page 25 Votecount

Crysnia: (2/4) Alduskkel, orangepenguin
Alduskkel: (1/4) Crysnia,
Moses le fou: (1/4) Battle Mage,
CF Riot: (0/4)
Battle Mage: (0/4)
springlullaby: (0/4)
orangepenguin: (1/4) springlullaby

Not Voting: (2/7) Moses le fou, CF Riot,

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

What cop tells?

[Alduskkel]

All I can guess is that it was an unintentional breadcrumb.

[Alduskkel]

^To add to my last post: He could have been bread crumbing Cop to attract the NK so that the real Cop wouldn't get NK'd.

He certainly attracted the NK.

[Alduskkel]

OP, if you agree with my case against Crysnia, why did you change your vote to BM?

[Alduskkel]

OP, if you think BM is scum why did you vote for Crysnia at all?

As for my vote on BM, he replaced Panonom, whose actions were questionable. I really didn't think BM was scum, but reviewing Day 1, I feel like he's actually a good choice for now for my vote. I thought this time, I would get my vote out there first, act later.

Upon reviewing Day 1, what did you find that made you vote for BM?

[Alduskkel]

We seem to be dividing our votes up too much. With my proof that Crysnia twisted mrfixij's words, her current vote on me seems OMGUSy. OP, you basically said my case on Crysnia was good in Post 581. Why not vote for Crysnia?

[Alduskkel]

I voted for Crysnia first in Post 549. Crysnia voted for me in Post 574.

OP, why did you vote for Crysnia at all?

[Alduskkel]

I really think we should lynch MLF. His vote on Pan was poorly reasoned. Quick hammer on a cop (even if he didn't know his alignment beforehand). Poor excuse for it. Fence sitting today.

From yesterday:

Moses left the Mastin wagon at just the right time for me, and voted Pan just when I felt like Pan was looking scummy. Therefore I felt like Moses was playing smart and townish. However I noticed now after the spat between him and BM that his reason for the vote is not so logical. I also don't understand why he's so avidly defending Zade(me), although maybe this is unintentional and a byproduct of attacking BM(Pan).

Now that you want me lynched, you've changed your opinion of my vote on Pan?

Vote: CF Riot

How's that for fence-sitting?

Moses left the Mastin wagon at just the right time for me, and voted Pan just when I felt like Pan was looking scummy. Therefore I felt like Moses was playing smart and townish. However I noticed now after the spat between him and BM that

his reason for the vote is not so logical.

I also don't understand why he's so avidly defending Zade(me), although maybe this is unintentional and a byproduct of attacking BM(Pan).

I really think we should lynch MLF.

His vote on Pan was poorly reasoned.

Quick hammer on a cop (even if he didn't know his alignment beforehand). Poor excuse for it. Fence sitting today.

Italics by me. I don't think Riot actually contradicted himself.

[Alduskkel]

What do you guys think about my case on Crysnia and her OMGUS vote on me? She also seems to have fallen quiet. Perhaps avoiding having to talk and trying to stay out of the spotlight? Or maybe she's just gone for the holidays.

[Alduskkel]

BACK SEAT MODDING!

=======================================

Page 26.5 Votecount

Crysnia: (1/4) Alduskkel,
Alduskkel: (1/4) Crysnia,
Moses le fou: (2/4) Battle Mage, CF Riot,
CF Riot: (1/4) Moses le fou
Battle Mage: (1/4) orangepenguin
springlullaby: (0/4)
orangepenguin: (1/4) springlullaby

Not Voting: (0/7) None!

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

In the interest of consensus, I'll switch my vote over.

Unvote
Vote: Moses le fou






















Just kidding. That was a parody of Post 546, by the way.

I suppose I can see where people are coming from with their votes for Moses. It seems an awful lot like he was trying to end the day quickly, cut of discussion, and make sure WC didn't get a chance to claim etc. etc. His claim that he somehow missed CF Riot's vote seems kind of flimsy if you ask me.

I might switch over, but I am still

much

more comfortable with my vote for Crysnia given that she wanted to kill mrfixij for being "helpful" and that he later ended up dead and that she twisted his words as I think I have successfully proven. Especially now since Moses has claimed Doctor. I will think about that for a while.

OP's vote seems kind of hypocritical, as Moses noted.

Moses, have you breadcrumbed Doctor at any point?

[Alduskkel]

And think about my case on Crysnia, everyone. It is a good one, if I do say so myself.

[Alduskkel]

OP's vote seems kind of hypocritical

Perhaps hypocritical is not the best term here. Not sure what would be, though. Perhaps "off."

Maybe I was hasty in deleting that note to myself to stop triple posting.

[Alduskkel]

BM: What does the setup have to do with anything? Why do you assume that if we had a Doctor, he would protect mrfixij?

Moses: That's not really much of a breadcrumb, but I guess it's better than nothing. It might help if you point out where mrfxij gave people scum vibes.

Thanks for protecting me. But evidently I did not need it. Still though, I'm honored.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not liking how you are spreading suspicion onto CF Riot without even backing it up with any sort of evidence at all.

When SL should be replaced is at the Mod's discretion. He just prodded her (Post 640), and it is the Holidays. Let's give her a few days. Why so hasty for a replacement, OP?

And what's up with this OP? Enlarged text is the part that matters.

unvote, vote: BM

Just because I think Player A is scummy (BM) doesn't mean I can't vote for Player B because Player A just happens to be voting for them. I don't know anybody's alignment. I don't have proof that BM is scum, so until he flips,

I am not going to assume anything.

I realize the MLF situation has been there. BM has been voting him since yesterday. I voted MLF yesterday. I decided to put some added pressure. He claimed. I am not willing to lynch an un-counterclaimed doc. Apparently, you do, since your vote is still on him. Do you not believe his claim?

I don't think BM is bussing MLF. It's possible for them to both be scum, but that would mean MLF is lying, which I doubt, so yeah, BM is not bussing. BM has been voting him the entire game, basically. BM is my #1. My vote on Crysnia was kind of stupid. If I could take it back, I would've kept my vote on BM, and not vote Crysnia, but I can't, lol, so, what's done is done. I thought Aldus was onto something, like I've said already, but Crysnia already addressed those issues. CF, congratulations, you're my #2. I don't have a case, nor am I gonna make one today, or tomorrow, on you, but I have a bad feeling about you. Key word: feeling = gut, which is why I won't vote you, because I don't think you should vote off of gut, but gut is a good place to start exploring.


1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Goon, 7 Vanilla Townies
1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 VanillaTownies

If MLF is telling the truth, there is 4 townies left (mrfixij makes 5) I know my role, so that leaves 3 townie, 2 scum.

Crysnia
Alduskkel Mastin
CF Riot Scheherazade
Battle Mage Questionmark, Panamon
springlullaby

I think Aldus is town, leaving the pool of:

Crysnia
CF Riot
Battle Mage
springlullaby

I really have no read of sl. So I am just going to mark her as town for now, since I have no suspicion or anything.

Crysnia
CF Riot
Battle Mage

This is the hard part.

I know BM is scum.

I have a feeling CF is scum too, and even though I voted for her beforehand, I guess that means Crysnia is not scum, but town.

confirm vote: BM

If we're lucky, BM will flip the roleblocker.

It seems to be a blatant contradiction.

I won't pass judgment on MLF's claim until this is answered:

It might help if you point out where mrfxij gave people scum vibes.

[Alduskkel]

BREAKING NEWS: I saw SL online. She may post soon after this.

[Alduskkel]

Called it. No need for replacement, OP.

[Alduskkel]

What don't you like about me?

[Alduskkel]

As for fixij's potential scumminess, it was largely that stuff where people suspected he was buddying up with springlullaby. If you want me to find those posts (your predecessor was the first proponent of this theory), I can.

Nah, I remember that stuff. No need.

I'm inclined to believe MLF's claim, since he has given a valid reason for not protecting mrfixij. One more question: Why did you protect me?

[Alduskkel]

Maybe Crysnia's replacement can answer my accusations.

[Alduskkel]

Why do you assume that if we had a Doctor, he would protect mrfixij?

He seemed like a fairly good player. That plus the aforementioned cop breadcrumbing. But its possible Moses didnt notice that.

BM

Ah, but WC had already flipped Cop so MLF wouldn't have protected mrfixij because he was bread crumbing Cop. And he's already given (what I consider to be) a good reason for protecting me.

I'll answer Riot's question a bit later.

[Alduskkel]

Riot: If Crysnia didn't exist? I'd say OP since he seems to be quite opportunistic about where he's placing his vote.

[Alduskkel]

Mod, orangepenguin and springlullaby have not posted in 6 days. Perhaps a Prod is in order?

[Alduskkel]

To answer alduskkel - I'm not liking you because I think you are going for all the obvious textbook wagons.

Examples?

[Alduskkel]

Hey wait, how am I bandwagoning if I'm the only one voting for Crysnia? I thought bandwagoning was defined as voting for someone who already has votes on them.

[Alduskkel]

I'm such a bad IC. I'm not even an IC at all, that's how bad an IC I am!!

[Alduskkel]

To answer alduskkel - I'm not liking you because I think you are going for all the obvious textbook wagons.

Examples?

[Alduskkel]

I don't like Alduskkel but last time I played with him, I was wrong in my read.

What happened to this? Post 590.

=======================================

Page 29 Votecount

mrfixij: (1/4) Alduskkel,
Alduskkel: (2/4) mrfixij, springlullaby,
Moses le fou: (1/4) CF Riot,
CF Riot: (0/4)
Battle Mage: (1/4) orangepenguin
springlullaby: (0/4)
orangepenguin: (2/4) Moses le fou, Battle Mage,

Not Voting: (0/7)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
=======================================

Retractable deadline for Friday 23 January at 6:30 pm GMT+10.

[Alduskkel]

http://67.222.17.61/forum/viewtopic.php ... 80#1390580

This post smells like scum hardcore. It pins WC to textbook faults such as lack of logic, whereas what he said in his defense makes very much sense. The tone is off too, it reads as a justification of your vote as opposed to a conviction of a person's guilt. Then there is the 'Minor FOS', 'Regular FOS' thing, it reads too orderly for my taste.

Then you depicting Crysnia as an obvious wagon today is also off to me, because from my POV the wagon on her hinges on a judgement of character, which is the hardest call of all.

How did WC's defense make sense? What gives you the impression that it is more a justification for my vote on WC as opposed to a conviction? What's scummy about being "too orderly"? How can you ignore that I've proven that Crysnia twisted mrfixij's words?

[Alduskkel]

I'm not in the business of proving to you what I say. People can read what I wrote, it is up to them to decide if they agree or not.

So since you can't answer my questions you just make an attempt to dodge them.

[Alduskkel]

I can answer them

[Alduskkel]

Please explain the use of that emoticon.

What is it intended to indicate?

Merely that you are lobbing accusations at me while refusing to back them up.

Also, hi mrfixij! I hope you've been continuing to follow the game, in which case you'll have no rereading to do and you can jump in immediately!

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[Alduskkel]

CF Riot, what say you to SL's accusations?

[Alduskkel]

(Pro Tip: SL is a woman.)

Her accusations against me.

[Alduskkel]

I would totally claim as doc if I were a vanilla townie.

Never fake claim as Town unless you have an extremely good reason. For one thing, you could get counterclaimed by the actual Doctor, thus resulting in either your lynch or the Doctor's, and furthermore you out a power role. If you get lynched and flip vanilla town, the Doctor gets NK'd. If the Doctor gets lynched, you get to stay alive so that the Town lynches you the next Day, which coupled with our mislynch of WC, would result in a MAFIA WIN.

And can we cut it out with Probabilities? They only count in the choice of setup and the distribution of roles at the beginning of the game. While 1 person might be acting Pro-Town, and the other acting scummy, probabilistically they still have the same chance of being scum, but of course when we look at them we don't see two people with the same chance of being scum; we see one person who is probably Town and one who is probably a Mafioso.

I mean this is just common sense.

[Alduskkel]

I propose we use this smiley whenever we're being sarcastic:

=======================================

Page 30 Votecount

mrfixij: (1/4) Alduskkel,
Alduskkel: (2/4) mrfixij, springlullaby,
Moses le fou: (1/4) CF Riot,
CF Riot: (0/4)
Battle Mage: (1/4) orangepenguin
springlullaby: (0/4)
orangepenguin: (2/4) Moses le fou, Battle Mage,

Not Voting: (0/7)

With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch!
=======================================

Retractable deadline for Friday 23 January at 6:30 pm GMT+10.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not sure what the case on CF Riot is...

[Alduskkel]

So you're voting for CF Riot but admit you have absolutely no case on him whatsoever?

FoS: orangepenguin

[Alduskkel]

Aldus doesn't think there is a case, and will jump stupidly on the bandwagon.

Incorrect. I'm sticking to my mrfixij vote, though you're certainly rising on my scum list fast. You seem to be bandwagoning at every possible point where it's possible.

Speaking of which, mrfixij, do you have any sort of rebuttal to my case on you (formerly Crysnia)?

OP, maybe if you stated your case on CF Riot I would be more convinced that you actually have a case on him.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, and SL, unless you actually back up your accusations against me, your vote is wasted where it is.

[Alduskkel]

So you're telling me to unvote you even though you admit that if you didn't know Crysnia's alignment you'd vote for her too? That's ridiculous.

[Alduskkel]

Actually I pretty much think of it as if Crysnia was the one killed on Night 1 and you've been with us this entire time.

So you basically have no defense at all of your predecessors actions? My vote stands.

[Alduskkel]

So OP is voting for CF Riot for no reason that I can discern and SL is voting for CF Riot based off of gut alone.

SL, surely after 30 pages of discussion you can vote based on something other than gut? Your vote on me would be better if only because it is not based on gut. But really, if you don't think I'm scum anymore and have no other reads besides gut, why not vote for mrfixij? I've proven that Crysnia twisted mrfixij's words. Surely that's better than gut?

FoS: SL

for taking someone to L-1 based off of gut. That sort of Town play (assuming you're Town, which I am for the purposes of this lecture) will only result in our loss.

[Alduskkel]

Mrfixij, why vote only to unvote at L-1. That's pure crap play.

It's called a "pressure vote." You should try it sometime. I've done it before.

Why don't you think I'm scum anymore? It's almost as if you realize my bandwagon isn't picking up steam so you're switching to a more suitable target.

[Alduskkel]

Btw, I don't think you aren't scum anymore Alduskel.

Oops, got confused by the double negative. Sorry!

[Alduskkel]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on the Pressure Voting thing. I think it can get good reactions, and is thus a useful tool.

Anyway, what do you say to this?

It's almost as if you realize my bandwagon isn't picking up steam so you're switching to a more suitable target.

I mean, you're voting based on gut on PAGE THIRTY. Don't you have anything better than gut after all that discussion? Why is your gut better than your case on me?

[Alduskkel]

I use Shift.

Well SL, has your gut been reliable in the past?

[Alduskkel]

Well if your gut catches us scum then who am I to stop you from gut voting?

[Alduskkel]

Merely an acquiesce to your vote.

[Alduskkel]

Can you point me to at least one game where your gut has been correct and you're confirmed Town?

[Alduskkel]

Hmm. I might vote for CF Riot, but I'd like to wait for him to defend himself before putting him at L-1.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm. I just realized that SL is employing the 7for7 fallacy. My vote on mrfixij stands.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm. I might vote for CF Riot, but I'd like to wait for him to defend himself before putting him at L-1.

Oh my, this is kind of too good to be true.

How likely does the rest of town think that the above is genuine newbieness?

Bah.

Unvote, Vote: Alduskel.

Huh? Why'd you change your vote back to me?

[Alduskkel]

Hmm. I might vote for CF Riot, but I'd like to wait for him to defend himself before putting him at L-1.

Seriously, is no one beside me noting the holycowscumminess of the above?

Tell me Aldi, can you explain why you started considering voting CF all of sudden in the post above?

Because your gut had been accurate before, but as I said you were employing a fallacy.

Also, driving away Crysnia and Mastin is nothing to be proud of.

OP, shut up, according to Rule 5 you're not allowed to talk at all.

Finally, this game does not suck.

[Alduskkel]

CF Riot: That's pretty much indicts OP as scum. I hope he is.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm. I might vote for CF Riot, but I'd like to wait for him to defend himself before putting him at L-1.

Seriously, is no one beside me noting the holycowscumminess of the above?

Tell me Aldi, can you explain why you started considering voting CF all of sudden in the post above?

Because your gut had been accurate before, but as I said you were employing a fallacy.

Also, driving away Crysnia and Mastin is nothing to be proud of.

OP, shut up, according to Rule 5 you're not allowed to talk at all.

Finally, this game does not suck.

Lol, still scummy Aldi baby. For considering a lynch based on my guts. Because, for starters, how do you know I'm not scum?

So you admit that your gut is bad? Why did you vote for CF Riot at all then?

[Alduskkel]

SL, I have not been suspicious of you. That would be OMGUS.

Why did you hammer OP?

[Alduskkel]

I am L-1, BTW. I could just as well end the day, but I would rather survive than CF, since I am less of a threat than the roleblocker is.

Explain this then please.

I am L-1, meaning one vote would hammer me. I could self-hammer, but I would rather see CF lynched today, since I am town, therefore not a threat, whereas CF is, because I fear he is the roleblocker.

OP claims Town here. Right after that you hammer him. Yes, he claimed scum earlier, but here he claims Town.

SL, I have not been suspicious of you. That would be OMGUS.

I retract this and replace it with "I was suspicious of you, but not currently."

I was briefly suspicious of you for taking CF Riot to L-1 based on gut but since you proved that your gut is good I retracted that suspicion.

[Alduskkel]

Yay!

The way I see it, the Mafia chose not to kill. Look at the facts:

If we have a Doctor, it's MLF, since we can rationally expect that if it wasn't MLF, the real Doctor would have counter claimed. Given that if we have a Doctor we also have a Roleblocker on our hands, MLF would clearly have been roleblocked, making his protection useless. Ergo, it's as if we don't have a Doctor in this scenario (unless the Roleblocker is lynched).

If we don't have a Doctor, clearly the scum did in fact choose not to kill.


Perhaps we should consider No Lynch. Pros and Cons, the way I see it:
Pros:
Narrows down our suspects, leaving scum less places to hide.

The Mafia didn't kill, meaning they probably formed their plans around us lynching today. No Lynch could screw up those plans (if they exist, which is admittedly a bold assumption). On the other hand, if the Mafia send in No Kill again then we could be setting ourselves up for a ...and they all lived happily ever after ending, which I don't like since we are playing to win, not to draw.

Cons:
Less Townspeople, meaning less people hunting for scum.

If the Mafia do kill, they'll gain the ability to quick hammer if a Townperson votes for a Townperson. Could be difficult for them to coordinate that well though, so if a scum votes for someone with little to no explanation we can then lynch them on the basis that they were trying to quick hammer.



Thoughts? Feel free to add your own Pros and Cons.

[Alduskkel]

MLF, if you are the Doctor, you're useless until the Mafia RB dies. They'll probably roleblock you night after night.

[Alduskkel]

Wait a second. There's no reason for Moses to have gotten that doc move off. He'd have been roleblocked if scum was going to kill. Which means that scum intentionally no-actioned to WIFOM town, or to verify Moses. I'm tempted to play occam's razor and say that Moses is scum, but I want to discuss this more before I vote.

That's what I've been saying this entire time.

Why are you suspicious of CF Riot and SL? What do you think about the No Lynch option?

That said, given that the scum can't quick hammer,

vote: mrfixij.

Same reasoning as before.

[Alduskkel]

10/9/08 Farside22: "Brain = No; Balls = HELL YES"

404

Besides, I hardly see the relevance of your balls are to this game.

No-lynch is the correct move in theory, but we know for a fact that the mafia just no-killed. There's no reason for them not to do it again. I say simply out of honor's sake, they made the right move first. Now the burden of drawing first is on us.

So you're telling us to back off from an idea that you just admitted is the correct play? That deserves a FoS in and of itself.

FoS: CF Riot

[Insert comment about how ballsy it is for CF Riot to tell us to not play what he says is the correct play here, and then follow it up with a comment on how this reflects the Quality & Finesse of CF Riot's balls.]

[Alduskkel]

I should proofread my posts. Oh well.

Anyway, CF Riot, why

is

no lynch the correct play?

[Alduskkel]

I think a key thing to remember is that Wrong =/= Scum. Clearly MLF is wrong. Does that make him scummy? Not necessarily. How would a Scum MLF benefit from coming up with crap logic like that? Is it more likely that Scum MLF would say something like that than Town MLF? If so, why?

@MLF: Are you leaning towards voting for mrfixij because of what I've said or because of something else? If the latter, what in particular makes you want to vote for him?

Not really clear on what the case on CF & SL is.

[Alduskkel]

Aldus leaning town

Why?

Because I'm hardcore and that's how I roll!!

Aldy

, who is the first half of post 811 aimed at?

mrfixij. He was talking about how MLF was wrong, and I wanted to make sure he knew that wrong=/=scummy. For some reason I thought mrfixij was saying MLF was scummy because he was wrong... I misinterpreted though. Sorry!

[Alduskkel]

But did the mafia expect everybody to assume as much or would they hope that somebody would think otherwise?

Why would the Mafia expect people to think that your protection went through?

Interesting point about how if mrfixij is scum, he might have elected not to kill just to bring up that point.

But we're getting into WIFOM now. You might have chosen not to kill so as to validate your Doctor claim, or the Mafia might have chosen not to kill so as to accuse you of trying to validate your Doctor claim, or you could have chosen not to kill so you could say that the Mafia chose not to kill so as to be able to accuse you of trying to validate your Doctor claim, or the Mafia could have chosen not to kill so as to accuse you of...

ad infinitum

[Alduskkel]

springlullaby:

I am L-1, BTW. I could just as well end the day, but I would rather survive than CF, since I am less of a threat than the roleblocker is.

Explain this then please.

I am L-1, meaning one vote would hammer me. I could self-hammer, but I would rather see CF lynched today, since I am town, therefore not a threat, whereas CF is, because I fear he is the roleblocker.

OP claims Town here. Right after that you hammer him. Yes, he claimed scum earlier, but here he claims Town.

Your reason for voting was because OP claimed scum. This quote invalidates your reason.

[Alduskkel]

I'm wondering if scum who intended to bus would have No-Killed before doing so? It would merely serve to make the task more difficult. This suggests Mrfixjj and Moses arent scumbuddies. I need to reread before we go to night.

BM

I don't really follow.

[Alduskkel]

You ignored my point about your hammering of OP.

[Alduskkel]

My point is that you hammered OP for claiming Scum right after he claimed Town.

[Alduskkel]

Isn't it obvious?

[Alduskkel]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think your OP hammer was ridiculous, given that your one reason for voting for him was because he claimed scum yet you hammer him right after he claims town.

[Alduskkel]

paranormal powers in the future.

I knew you were going to use that phrase at some point in this game.

[Alduskkel]

Honestly SL, all you have proven is that I'm too trusting.

[Alduskkel]

vollkan, the votecount is wrong; I'm voting for mrfixij.

[Alduskkel]

He made some really dubious comments, but then he's been doing that all game.

Um... what?

And in case you hadnt noticed, we're No-Lynching today...

I'm fine with this as long as we don't get into a ...and they all lived happily ever after situation.

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

[Alduskkel]

So you're voting for No Lynch even though its "value is null"?

[Alduskkel]

aldus buddying up to me

Where?

[Alduskkel]

I'm kind of worried that you're getting tunnel vision on me.

[Alduskkel]

aldus buddying up to me

Where?

[Alduskkel]

I'm kind of worried that you're getting tunnel vision on me.

Tunnel vision? So you think I'm town, huh?

There is something very endearing about you Aldy

I never said I thought you were Town in that post.

[Alduskkel]

I'm kind of worried that you're getting tunnel vision on me.

Tunnel vision? So you think I'm town, huh?

There is something very endearing about you Aldy

I never said I thought you were Town in that post.

Not in so many words, no

You're just pulling straws out of the air.

If that makes any sense.

[Alduskkel]

861 is right.

Why? Do you really think that post by me was somehow implying SL was Town?

[Alduskkel]

What I was trying to say in that post is asking SL, if she is Town, to consider whether or not she's getting tunnel vision on me. We can't really afford even 1 misguided townie in lylo.

And I do think she is just a misguided Townie, though I think it has got to the point where she's almost fabricating evidence, which is kind of scummy. But I know there's a part of me that wants to OMGUS her crazy hard so I am trying not to be biased.

And sorry, I looked at Post 860 instead of 861.

[Alduskkel]

why do you think I am town?

Isn't it obvious? It's because you haven't been acting very scummy.

[Alduskkel]

Why the request for deadline, SL?

[Alduskkel]

Why the request for deadline, SL?

Why the not request for deadline, Aldy?

Answer the question, SL. That's a non-answer right there.

You have been posting inconsequential zlurp for 2 pages now without a hint of making your mind up.

Hardly. If you were paying attention you might have noticed my top suspect is mrfixij.

What is so difficult about a decision now?

I just think no lynch is the correct play here, and evidently you agree since you are also voting for no lynch. If you don't agree, you shouldn't be voting for no lynch in the first place.

Btw, Alduskkel is the only person I'm voting today.

This only reinforces my fears that you are getting tunnel vision.

[Alduskkel]

@No Lynch: L-1. Claim time.

[Alduskkel]

I'll be here all night folks.

[Alduskkel]

Btw, Alduskkel is the only person I'm voting today.

This only reinforces my fears that you are getting tunnel vision.

Your constant demonstration of faith in my towniness is heartwarming.

Exactly what I'm talking about right here. You literally turn every sentence I say into a scum tell, and I will now use my paranormal powers (as you remarked upon earlier) to decipher something...

hmm

yes

You will indeed turn at least one sentence in this post against me somehow.

[Alduskkel]

Italics added by me.

Why the request for deadline, SL?

Why the not request for deadline, Aldy?

Answer the question, SL. That's a non-answer right there.

No, you ask a question that I do not feel to be justified, I am throwing the ball right back at you. Beside my questions present a direct answer to your post, I believe that it's time for people make up their mind, and also explain that it's not a hard thing to do given the options.

I just don't like how you're trying to cut off the day and get to the night ASAP.

You have been posting inconsequential zlurp for 2 pages now without a hint of making your mind up.

Hardly. If you were paying attention you might have noticed my top suspect is mrfixij.

I regard your last two pages of babble as inconsequential. If your top suspect is mrfixij, why aren't you pressing a case against him? If you have made your mind up, why argue against a deadline?

A lot of what I have been saying has been defending from you. I have been dutifully answering your accusations; how is that inconsequential babble?

What is so difficult about a decision now?

I just think no lynch is the correct play here, and evidently you agree since you are also voting for no lynch. If you don't agree, you shouldn't be voting for no lynch in the first place.

What are you arguing about now? Where have I said that I did not agree with nolynch?

You wanted to lynch me but since my bandwagon wasn't gaining steam you went with no lynch. (Post 855). Hence my assumption that you preferred a lynch of me as opposed to No Lynch.

Btw, Alduskkel is the only person I'm voting today.

This only reinforces my fears that you are getting tunnel vision.

Your constant demonstration of faith in my towniness is heartwarming.

Responded to above.

mrfixij, please answer post 853.

[Alduskkel]

If you have qualm with my attacks, please do more than whine by, for example, presenting why you think my attacks are unjustified in the first place.

Please organize all your accusations in one post (or point me to a post where they are all included) and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

[Alduskkel]

I'll do a summary on you if I live

Why not now?

[Alduskkel]

Well, the main accusation against me (based on what SL has said) is that I 'considered' voting for CF Riot which, incidentally, required me to assume that SL was Town in order for lynching based off her gut to make any sense at all.

Let me first say that I am a newbie. Yes, we all hate the newbie card but this

is

a newbie game. I'll readily admit I am not really that good of a town player; you need only consult my signature for proof. I tend to come off as scummy, particularly in Newbie 681 and Mafia V (see the links on my wiki page). I have something of a record for being a scummy townie. I know what I did was scummy, and I don't expect you to give me a free pass or anything. However, I think I can offer a better lynch target (Crysnia/mrfixij). I think I've proven that she twisted mrfixij's words, and that's scummier than anything I've done, I should think. Perhaps I'm just biased because I know I'm Town.

So, in conclusion, ask yourself: do I come across as newb Town or newb Mafia? If it's newb Town or "either" then you can't really justify a vote against me. I know this is something of an Appeal to Emotion, but it's the truth.

All I'm asking is that you read my posts from the perspective of a newb Town to see if they fit, and Newbie 681 too. Maybe Mafia V just to top it all off. If, after all that, you still think I'm scum then I can't say anything more than what I've already said, unless they're different accusations.

Thank you for your time.

[Alduskkel]

I love the rhyming, vollkan. I'd love to see more of that.

Well, we can't vote so willy-nilly now -- scum could quickhammer if we're not careful.

Maybe asking you guys to read my posts from 3 games (including this one) was a bit much. I was just a bit worried that, if I didn't answer the accusations against me to some degree or another, I'd probably end up lynched today, causing the Town to lose.

[Alduskkel]

So, should we play the WIFOM game with Aldu?

Only if you think we can gain more information that way.

[Alduskkel]

If you guys want to play the WIFOM game with me, fine, but unless you can see any benefit to doing so it's just a waste of time.

That's all I'm saying.

=======================================

Page 38 Votecount

mrfixij: (0/3)
Alduskkel: (0/3)
Moses le fou: (0/3)
CF Riot: (0/3)
Battle Mage: (0/3)

Not Voting: (5/5) mrfixij, Alduskkel, Moses le fou, CF Riot, Battle Mage

With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

All I'm saying is that speculating on the night kill would be a waste of time.

[Alduskkel]

At the moment, I'm inclined to think that Aldu himself is the most likely to have done so.

He was the one who was most supportive of no-lynching yesterday, which makes me think that he was the most likely to think of no-killing the night before.

Bold added by me. How was I the most supportive of No Lynch? Pretty much everyone agreed that No Lynch was the correct play. And how does it follow that I would have been the most likely to send in a No Kill on Night 2?

[Alduskkel]

nobody (except you) really thought she was scum in the first place.

Where did I say I thought SL was scum?

[Alduskkel]

Oh yeah, and:

And how does it follow that I would have been the most likely to send in a No Kill on Night 2?

[Alduskkel]

he seemed ridiculously confident in not being lynched-not atall concerned that it was LyLo. Almost as if he knew that his lynch wouldnt end the game... lol

If I was scum, I would be concerned about being lynched because, well, the entire goal of the Mafia revolves around not being lynched. If I was Town, I would be concerned about being lynched because that would mean that I would instantly lose. So the fact that I don't seem concerned about my lynch doesn't really mean anything.

@BM: I know SL has laid out reasons for wanting me to be lynched, but what specifically are yours? You can just quote a bunch of SL's posts, if you want.

Also, I am concerned about my lynch. See Post 919.

@MLF: I wasn't implying anything like that.

@CF Riot: My top two suspects? I'd say mrfixij for (as Crysnia) twisting mrfixij's words. (that still sounds stupid...) Then maybe BM, as Panamon's actions were dubious at best.

Speaking of suspects, CF Riot, what exactly is your case against MLF? It seems to have been lost in all the arguments between SL and me.

[Alduskkel]

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

What? You're saying that by making myself suspicious I avoid being lynched???

[Alduskkel]

I don't see where you're getting this defeatist attitude from me. It's not like I'm saying, "Oh, I guess I can't say anything more, so lynch me."

[Alduskkel]

him [Alduskkel] sort of leading us around by the nose

Where?

[Alduskkel]

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

What? You're saying that by making myself suspicious I avoid being lynched???

I dont know what i meant if you only quote half of my comment.
I'll look it up.

BM

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

I don't see where you're getting this defeatist attitude from me. It's not like I'm saying, "Oh, I guess I can't say anything more, so lynch me."

If you guys want to play the WIFOM game with me, fine, but unless you can see any benefit to doing so it's just a waste of time.

That's all I'm saying.

^sounds pretty defeatist to me.

I don't think so. Again, I was just saying that we could speculate on the NK, but I didn't think it would get us anywhere.

BM

935:

And it follows that you would have been the most likely to send in a no kill because you're the one who came on with the reason why the mafia would do so.

Well, I was just explaining why I thought they did what they did, in case anyone was wondering.

[Alduskkel]

I fixed the tags.

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

The rhetorical question and use of the word 'stupid' was an appeal to emotion. In what way would you say his doctor claim fits? And, given you think he is town, did it not concern you that, with 3 town and 2 scum, he would, err cost you the game?

Well, for starters, I don't see that as an Appeal to Emotion. Maybe you disagree, but I don't really know where you're getting that. As for the Doctor claim, MLF has
-Not been Counter Claimed
-Given good reasons for not protecting mrfixij Night 1 and protecting me instead that Night.
-Doesn't come off as all that scummy

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

This is LyLo, in case you'd forgotten.
We're not here to speculate, we're here to lynch someone. It's fairly apparent that MLF wasnt asking whether we should SPECULATE ON IT- because in doing so, he was already speculating on it. Whether he intended to pursue the WIFOM argument is debatable, but the fact is, he was referring to potentially lynching you today. Otherwise, he wouldnt have wasted our time mentioning it, because this game is about lynching scum.

I think we should let MLF explain what he meant there, however I took it as him asking if it was worth it to discuss the NK.

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

He quite clearly intended to do more than speculate. Today is all about lynching scum. The "sure" bit seems a little too eager to please, and unconcerned about being lynched. At the very least, it's drastically out of character for you in this game.

For starters, I don't think it he "quite clearly intended to do more than speculate." I think it's a debatable issue that can only be solved by MLF coming in and explaining what he meant. I don't see how my use of the word "sure" can be construed at all as a scum tell, but you seem to have managed! I mean it's just the word "sure". Not every random word I say has an ulterior motive in and of itself. I still disagree with you about my being "unconcerned about being lynched." I don't think I've acted that way at all, and if you've noticed I have been defending myself a fair bit from your accusations, something I would not do if I was "unconcerned about being lynched."

BM, I almost used underlined text to respond to all that. You're welcome.

mrfixij might need replacing; he hasn't posted anywhere since February 29.

[Alduskkel]

I fixed the tags.

Italics are mine.

Then in response, Alduskkel doesnt seem phased atall by the prospect of being lynched on WIFOM grounds

That's because I don't think the Town is that stupid. Do you?

Appeal to Emotion. The prospect was raised, and the simple truth is, you didnt bat an eyelid. Yes, perhaps you were just amazingly confident in the rest of the players abilities to avoid following MLF. But im not seeing it. Do you think MLF is town?

I don't see how it's an Appeal to Emotion. I don't think it takes amazing confidence in the Town to expect them to have the brain to not lynch on such a petty WIFOM reason. And yes, I do think MLF is Town, since his Doctor claim fits.

The rhetorical question and use of the word 'stupid' was an appeal to emotion. In what way would you say his doctor claim fits? And, given you think he is town, did it not concern you that, with 3 town and 2 scum, he would, err cost you the game?

Well, for starters, I don't see that as an Appeal to Emotion. Maybe you disagree, but I don't really know where you're getting that. As for the Doctor claim, MLF has
-Not been Counter Claimed
-Given good reasons for not protecting mrfixij Night 1 and protecting me instead that Night.
-Doesn't come off as all that scummy

The last point isnt related to his claim atall. The second seems weak. You think hes town because he protected you? Surely if he was mafia, he could claim to protect pretty much anyone. The first is WIFOM. If he was mafia, its unlikely he'd claim Doc if he knew there was the chance of a Doc out there. We had a Cop already dead by the time he claimed. Not buying that atall.
Personally, i found MLF incredibly scummy earlier, but on balance, im leaning towards him being town atm. If he was scum, he could quite easily continue with his normal stance-pushing for a BM lynch. Instead, it strikes me that he's actually thinking and playing the game.

On the contrary, MLF may have backed off of you to pursue easier targets such as me. Mostly I believe MLF is the Doctor because I have a Town read on him. You yourself say you have a Town read on him right now!

Look at it like this. If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help"

I'll say it again: speculating on the night kill is just that: speculation. I could have done it to eliminate a threat to myself, or it could be a frame job. We can't figure out which of the two is correct, so why bother trying?

Something can be WIFOM, but people can still make interpretations from it. Just because the result isnt certain, doesnt mean we cant have an opinion. It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you, and you didnt fight. That's my issue.

I disagree with you when you say "It looked like you were gonna take some heat, with potential opinion going against you". I didn't see anyone preparing to lynch me on WIFOM grounds, not even MLF. MLF was just raising the possibility of speculating on the NK.

This is LyLo, in case you'd forgotten.
We're not here to speculate, we're here to lynch someone. It's fairly apparent that MLF wasnt asking whether we should SPECULATE ON IT- because in doing so, he was already speculating on it. Whether he intended to pursue the WIFOM argument is debatable, but the fact is, he was referring to potentially lynching you today. Otherwise, he wouldnt have wasted our time mentioning it, because this game is about lynching scum.

I think we should let MLF explain what he meant there, however I took it as him asking if it was worth it to discuss the NK.

Ok, although im not sure it really alters the point. I saw it as him referring to actually progressing the game. It's possible you did too, whether he meant it like that or not. Hence my point stands.

Your point doesn't stand. I took it as MLF asking if discussing the NK was worthwhile; you took it as MLF asking whether or not the NK was evidence against me for the lynch. Two different interpretations, I chose one, you chose the other. Just because you disagree with me as to which one is correct doesn't make it a scum tell on my part.

If Aldy is town, he wouldnt make a comment like "sure, but probably won't help" UNLESS he had some way of confirming himself, because by inviting suspicion on him, thats the only way he avoids getting lynched.

this was my original comment. My point was that you seemed to welcome suspicion on yourself, by not attacking the prospect of WIFOM being followed. The only way i could see you doing that as town, is if you could confirm yourself with a claim...which is, uhh, unlikely.

I don't see how I was "welcoming" suspicion onto myself. I was merely saying that we could speculate on the NK, but that I thought it was a waste of time.

BM

He quite clearly intended to do more than speculate. Today is all about lynching scum. The "sure" bit seems a little too eager to please, and unconcerned about being lynched. At the very least, it's drastically out of character for you in this game.

For starters, I don't think it he "quite clearly intended to do more than speculate." I think it's a debatable issue that can only be solved by MLF coming in and explaining what he meant.

Yup, although as i said above, my point still stands. From my perspective at least, he was asking whether we should use the NK to help dictate our lynch.

Again, just because you disagree with me doesn't make it a scum tell on my part.

I don't see how my use of the word "sure" can be construed at all as a scum tell, but you seem to have managed! I mean it's just the word "sure".

Lol, this is Mafia. It's a word based game. You've gotta expect your comments to be taken apart.

Of course, but I feel that you are putting a lot of meaning into one little word that I happened to use.

If you were town, you wouldnt just 'disagree' with me, youd KNOW i was wrong.

You are wrong. I say disagree since I try to speak from the perspective that I do not know my alignment, since the Town does not. I can't go around basing my posts on the premise that I'm Town, because no one will be able to relate to that (except for scum).