Newbie 74 - Game Over

[Myopia]

Hi all, pms were still being checked on friday afternoon when i last had a connection. I spent all weekend moving and my access will be limited to working hours during the week until a) i get a new home connection and b) i manage to put my computer together from its many component pieces at the moment.

"A new crime syndicate is in town, and its threatening to kill the others off, one by one."

Hm sounds like even the townspeople in this game are scummy

Inhimishallbe, In your chart with a no-lynch you end up with 6 on day 2. If you miss a lynch day 2 you end up with 2:2. Town cant win but isnt there a potential for an unbreakable tie?? Normally, I find the accidental ommision of pertinent information a little suss but the chance of a succesful save by the doc is preety low.

What I want to discuss is whether the cop should come out day 2 as soon as they have done an investigation. Seems to me that with this set up, and only 1 kill possible a night, as long as the doc (and the cop of course) are still alive that will always be the best percentage play. If theres 2 role claims then you end up at worst with a confirmed scum and a confirmed townie. Id like to hear everyone elses thoughts on this.

I dont like random votes. No vote for now.

[Myopia]

Ah I see thanks. In other versions of mafia and werewolf ive played the game can tie on the basis that the baddies cant win unless they actually outnumber the goodies.

I agree the variables decrease markedly tommorow. Just wanted to raise the issue squarely at the outset as the newbie set up with 1 killing group, 1 cop and 1 doctor seems to favour it while the doctor lives.

After re-reading the (short) thread to date the scummiest behavior seems to be jdtay in voting for an experienced (and impliedly a skilled analyst) player in talitha. However that was so early that I cant put much weight to it at this point. Half a

FOS jdtay

.

Otherwise, kieron is going out of his way to make it clear he is a new player which means he might be trying to cultivate that appearance to look less suspicious or, shock horror, he might simply be what he seems.

Note that locus supported talitha in one of his first posts which maybe relevant if one turns out to be scummy but also seems relatively benign.

[Myopia]

Hypocritical? Not at all. Im simply posting what are my (admittedly and expressly) initial responses to what is some very limited information.

I think your being overly defensive. The way you worded your post it seemed a bit personal (ie lets keep her around) and less about rejecting the obviously humorous argument. I even said that I thought it was benign.

Im just as new as keiron. Im not trying to suggest otherwise. Im just noting that his initial posts went a certain way. If it were to turn out later he was a skilled and experienced poster then that might be relevant. I wasnt sure about what would happen if it was 2 vs 2 so I asked.

Im not being weaselly. Im trying to appropriately qualify what Im saying. If I say - I think Jdtray is scum because he voted talitha straight out of the blocks and vote for him then im being silly. I annoy him and I look like an idiot for taking seriously what was an obvious joke.

Essentially Im just trying to make some sense out of a few posts by pointing out my initial observations and making it clear that it is just that. Im trying to encourage discussion. Frankly, what other "content" do you suggest I add at this point?

[Myopia]

Sorry, Locus, but all the vets know that the game begins on Day 2. I wasn't supposed to tell you guys, but basically we wait for some n00b to try to play the game on Day 1 and lynch him. It's how we vets avoid getting lynched Day 1.

heh. that wasnt in the faq. guess Im in trouble then.

lotus. I agree with your definition of hypocrisy. where we disagree is that im not trying to attack anyone. ive stated an opinion and indicated it is tenuous at best. how does that qualify as an attack?

[Myopia]

What is the convention when a player takes a medium size break like Inhim?

I'd feel bad about lynching him when he cant defend himself but equally he can slide under the radar freely if hes mafia (note im not saying that his other commitments arent genuine).

Im kind of annoyed that locus has kept his vote on me for what must have been the mildest attack in the history of the game. Im tempted to go tit-for-tat but I dont think hes scummy at this point so I will keep my vote and just slowly polish my trusty lynching rope.

[Myopia]

I think his comments were derived from a more strategic aim of adjusting ones playing style to minimise ones overall mortality rate. I can see why that would be a more immediate goal to a veteran player.

As a new player thats not so much of a worry to me

[Myopia]

Unless I missed something, Jdtay's vote was on talitha (the get the chicks post) rather than me. Seems an uncharacterstic error to me. Isnt a scum more likely to forget who they have voted for (because they dont really care about finding scum unlike a townie)? Might just be because the vote was random but I find this suspicious.

Im wary of putting a third vote on though until I see what he has to say.

[Myopia]

Oh btw talitha why keep your vote for Inhim? Correct me if Im wrong but i though the initial vote was random.

[Myopia]

Ok then:

We have two votes for jdtay. In him because jdtay's "keep your head down" post to me did not seem to him to be pro-town. Locus because jdtay replied to locus's fos for making jokes with another joke and a vote. Honestly jdtay had to know he had that coming.

We of course have the vote for locus from jdtay which was a joke.

We have one vote for inhim from talitha which is part random, part no-one better and part for an unamed reason (the "sort of" comment). Her being reticent strikes me as a little odd as she seems very analytical to me.

We have one vote for kieron from jagged which was random.

We have one vote for jagged from kieron which was tit for tat.

I cant see anything meaningful in the votes for locus, kieron or jagged at this point.

My current view is that locus is actively trolling for scum (which is what im attempting but then again maybe Im just flailing around impotently), the three experienced players are keeping their heads down and merely responding to questions or in the case of jtday making jokes and jagged is lurking.

Jagged what are your thoughts?

[Myopia]

Missed jdtay's claim when i last posted.

Just lost my first reponse when I tried to post it but i agree with talitha - it is suss he was on 2 votes rather than in imminent danger of dying when he made the claim. He practically provoked locus' vote on him. Seems like strange play for a doctor (or indeed mafia - is he trying to take down the real doctor with him).

[Myopia]

The claim seems suss. You were in no imminent danger of dying, why the claim. You practically provoked locus's vote and then provoke the people voting for you again by calling them noobs. If your the doctor then your basically asking to be lynched. If your mafia then I can only infer you thought you were going down and are trying to take the real doctor with you.

Dont think I need to use an FOS at this point.

[Myopia]

uggh sorry thats ugly obviously thought i lost the second post, rebooted and tried again

[Myopia]

Thats a big overstatement.

I said that I was suspicous but wary of putting a third vote on you until I heard what you had to say. You probably could have mollified locus with a bit of effort (he still seems pretty suspicous about me). And at that point I was not keen to lynch you over forgetting a vote. You chose to claim instead.

You justify the early claim by saying there a "newb mafia". Why do you say that? To date you havent indicated that you are suspicous of anyone. You merely voted locus as a joke.

Of course theres only doctor but merely asserting it is you doesnt make it so. Calling everyone a newb isnt helping your case. Indeed its just making it more likely for us to lynch you.

Im struggling to establish the reasoning behind your claim. If you are the doctor as you claim then your dead tonight anyway and you dont see morning either way. If your a townie trying to keep yourself alive then your a liar and possible exposing the real doctor to danger.

Bottomline you seem like an intelligent player. Based on that assumption I cant see you playing the way you have if you were the real doctor.

Im 90% sure your scum at this point but as I really dont want to be partially responsible for lynching a doctor day 1 of my first game im going to wait to here what the others say first. Needless to say if there is a real doctor out there they should not reveal themselves.

[Myopia]

I should have added an "at this point" at the end of the sentance in question. A more experienced player than me can say whether a doctor for a mafia is a fair trade but I dont think there is any need to risk the doctor until jdtay's claim has been examined thorougly. If hes mafia and he thought he was going down he might just be trying to take the doctor down with him.

I think in other circumstances I would find you taking it for granted that the doctor should come out when jdtay's claim is very suspicious, suspicous itself . However if jdtay is scum then it increases the chance of inhim and you being innocent (and me if you think about it) as he wouldnt have felt so forced to role claim to avoid a lynch if his partner was voting for him. Thus I think that the chance of jdtay and you or jdtay and inhim being scum together are low.

Youve indicated that I am as suspicious as someone who claimed doctor with 2 votes. At this point locus its obvious that the way ive chosen to play this game is suspicious to you. Fair enough. Id just ask that you have another read of my posts and ask yourself whether i am trying to confuse matters or promote discussion. If Im scum and jdtay is innocent wouldnt I have tried to push his lynching rather than not vote in an attempt to slow things down and try and hear from everyone?

[Myopia]

I've stated my reasons why I think jdtray is suss (although his post about keeping your head down is a bit ironic if he is in fact innocent). As a doc he played very recklessly, practically inviting votes from at least locus. Then when he went too far he played conservatively claiming doc. I would have thought a doc would want to be the other way round ie practically be dragged to the scaffold before claiming. On the contrary its not a bad claim for mafia.

Yes jdtray 4 of us in this game are newbs or relatively newbs. I apologise... no wait i checked the title and guess what.... its a newb game!!!!!! If you are the doc then id be pissed off too that you feel you were forced to claim. However no disrespect but youve firmly planted yourself in this situation. The personal attacks arent helping the town.

I wanted to talk more about the claim before asking the doc to come out. In particular i wanted for jdtray to explain his newb mafia comment and indicated who he thought was suspicious.

However if the consensus is that the real doc should come out and after hearing from all players (including jagged who hasnt posted in a while) there is no counterclaim then that is sufficient for me.

Cant see any point to the cop coming out until they have done at least one investigation.

[Myopia]

My vote goes back to

vote: Myopia

; same reasons I had before, plus he continued to pursue a claimed doc and said the real doc shouldn't come out.

If I was mafia (and jdtay innocent) I would have tried to get him lynched by voting for him not trying to illicit more information. You thought him suspicious enough to vote for so dont blame me for having the same suspicions.

If there is another real doc why should they come out until every other possibility is exhausted? I thought that if jdtay was mafia then that was exactly what he wanted.

Yeah I pursued jdtay for his claim. Given the inconsistencies in the claim can you blame me? As for continuing to pursue a claimed doc its yet to be determined whether there will be a counterclaim (and it was certainly unclear at the point where I stated my view that the doctor should stay quiet whether there would be). Everyone but jagged has now posted after talithas post that the doc should come out - if jagged doesnt claim then as I said thats reasonable for me.

[Myopia]

kieron, i think he was talking about your hail mary to talitha for assistance when she could be scum

i imagine that its fairly common for experienced players in newbie games who are scum to use the "teaching" part of the game to lead the town where they want it to go.

imo locus was just warning you of that possibility

[Myopia]

Id like to hear from the players who havent posted much (in him and jagged).

I agree that talitha seems like she is lying low. Shes seems a bit more like an impartial observer who chimes in with basis strategy tips - helpful but frankly if she was mafia it would be very hard to tell as she keeps it very close to the chest. Im not trying to bandwagon her Id just like to hear what she thinks.

[Myopia]

Actually I think that jagged has lurked enough that its worth a vote so

vote jagged

[Myopia]

[/quote] It's a fair comment. I don't expect that anyone would be able to tell if I am innocent or not at this stage. I'd probably give the same advice that I have given, whether I was scum or not.[/quote]

See what I mean. The statement is completely and undoubtedly 100% correct while simultaneously of no asisstance whatsoever.

[Myopia]

Guys my access will be patchy if at all over the next 72 hours as I have a long weekend and am trying to avoid work during that period.

[Myopia]

at work on sunday morning

Anyway, I guess since I'm supposed to vote for someone I'll pick Myopia...lots of suspecting, obvious newbieness, pointed a finger at me once...overall, doesn't seem to be as much help to the town as, say, the doctor, or Talithia (as an experienced player):

Vote: Myopia

Im not objective but the anti-me logic is just getting crappier and crappier.
Dude if suspecting and fingerpointing is suspicious then are you playing the right game

Go back and read the post where I supposedly attack you.

Are you voting on helpfulness or are you voting for someone who you think is scum? I think it is a valid question.

The doctor is dead by dawn. And if you think talitha is being particularly helpful then I really do pity you if she turns out to be scum (which is just as likely as anyone else at this point.

unvote jagged

[Myopia]

Well with two votes on me ive thought about fading into the background a bit but a) that would be contrary to the way ive decided to play and b) it would probably look sus in any event and get me hung even faster.

I cant do percentages because to be honest at the moment objectively I dont have a lot to go on. Only little things. Ive been podding and proking at those little things to see where things end up. Unfortunately that has apparantly appeared suspicious to some. I think though that its at least deriving some info so even if I did it will be of some help to the town.

Most of my thoughts at the moment are subjective because they are based on my personal knowledge that i am a townie. Accordingly its not so helpful for anyone else

The scum havent had a chance to talk yet. I was thinking about what I would do. If I were inexperienced scum I would probably just lay low and try and hang an innocent who stands out (like me) to get through to day 2. If I was experienced scum (obviously harder for me to extrapolate) I dunno I guess Id try and have an obvious innocent patsie for the day 2 vote.

My view at the moment:

jagged - hes lurked (or been genuinely busy) way too much for me to have any clue at all - honestly id be unhappy to go to the next day without hearing more from him

talitha - objectively i have no idea whatever. subjectively shes got a lot more innocent to me at least in the short term in saying i look pro-town and not just because its a relief. if she was scum i think it would have been very very easy for her to push a bandwagon on me (with two votes already) by saying she thought I was very suspicous maybe without even having to vote. then again maybe shes saving me for hanging tommorow when its critical but thats a stretch.

inhim - again he hasnt posted enough. I have no idea. talitha is obviously sus about him but I have no idea about what. have the feeling they have something going on from a past game. i guess im a bit sus generally of an experienced player in a newbie game who doesnt post much. it must be a bit of a public service exercise so why go to the trouble if your not genuinely interested in helping out new players? if youve gone that far why lurk unless your scum? obviously though hes indicated he has had time issues. subjectively again he goes down a tad for me for a similar reason to talitha.

jdtay - i was sure jdtay was scum because the claim seemed to have so many holes. obviously i was wrong. the simple fact that noone has counterclaimed doc makes him 95% innocent. i would still like to hear his thoughts about the game though. Im getting the feeling that he plays the game for the individual achievement and a town victory with him dead at the start would not be particularly satisfying for him.

locus - has been pretty dead set against me from my first substantive post - apparantly for me linking him to talitha. I dont agree with his logic. Not at all. I think my comments were perfectly fair in the context they were given. however the simple fact that hes been fairly consistent in his suspicions (he switched briefly to jdtay for obvious reasons and then switched back) makes it a bit obvious. If im hung and revealed to be town he will look quite scummy.

kieron - is a bit all over the place. I dont agree with his logic. I dont agree with his assessment of who is helpful. i dont think hes taking into account the fact that several players arent really posting. taking offense at the newb/experienced distinction is a bit silly. 4 players in this game are technically newbs (although it looks like locus has more experience than the rest of us so maybe he fits in the middle). everyone is a newb at some point. the issue is whether your logic stacks up not how new you are. because i dont agree with his logic he looks more scummy to me but then its all a bit obvious.

So to sum up:

- jdtay - innocent
- talitha, locus - slightly less innocent than the others
- inhim, jagged - medium
- kieron - slightly more scummy

Who to hang today? Well its a bit disconcerting as I seem to be the front runner but im not really sure at this point. Id like to hear from the lurkers and jdtay.

[Myopia]

vote kieron

for the reasons stated

[Myopia]

She's third on my list, after Myopia and kieron, although the way she places me at the top of her list and refuses to give me any justification for it is... worrisome to say the least. It would be nice if you gave me something to respond to, Talitha.

confirm vote: Myopia

, though if a wagon on kieron or Talitha got big, I wouldn't want to Nader the voting.

imo, this is the scummiest thing weve heard from you yet locus. so basically your willing to jump on any of three different bandwagons, me, kieron or talitha???

[Myopia]

Defensive? You're already voting for me. I dont exactly have too much more to worry about from you do I

I called you focused before. Now you just seem indiscriminate. Isnt leaping from bandwagon to bandwagon a scum trait? Arent you proposing just that?

What about talitha? You didnt seem to find her a bit suspicious until she identified you as slightly more likely to be scummy. Now your happy to hang her? Pot. Kettle.

[Myopia]

Jdtay could you explain why we should hang talitha. Why is she more suspicious in your eyes than say inhim?

Your obviously a very experienced player. Your now the only confirmed innocent. To be blunt, it would be great to get some useful and objective information before you have an accident walking home tonight.

[Myopia]

And then, I really distrust anyone who posts something along the lines of "If I were scum" or "Do you really think I would have done this as scum?" I find this a fairly weak defense, because there's no telling what scum would do to save their skin. This approach is also very manipulative, because it would tend to make a reader automatically assume the posting player is not scum, a very useful mafia tactic. So, along those lines, I suspect Myopia and Locus for posting these hypothetical statements.

Locus elicited a negative reaction from me twice in the same page, and I now find him most suspicious.

unvote, vote : Locus

Agree that the "I wouldnt have done that if I was scum defence" has little or no objective value. Disagree that conjecture about what the scum might do by putting yourself in their position is necessarily suspicious. And while such comments may not be particularly useful to everyone else while your own innocence is the very question it might well become useful after your dead.

[Myopia]

..ok then. looks like we are waiting for the replacement. i guess thats somewhat timely given the impending holidays. im here for about the next 12 hours then I will be spending the next 4 days at the beach with no internet access.

merry christmas to all (even the scummy people)

[Myopia]

Sorry guys my beach holiday ended up going for longer than I thought. Had a chance before new years to read up until about page 6 but didnt have time to reply. Will read the next two pages and reply this morning (my time).

[Myopia]

OK. Up to date. First of all, again my apologies. I should definately have posted a short "ohh sorry i will be away longer than i thought" post. It was discourteous of me not to do so.

Secondly, unvote enigma for now.

Thirdly, as for my defence. Its a difficult situation. I think Ive adequately responded to the claims made to date. There really arent any new ones just the same dodgy logic re-packaged. Its funny. In any last minute attempt to save ones self desparation is always going to be treated as suspicous.

Talitha has copped heat for defending me. Subjectively that puts her as likely innocent to me as if she were scum I would be dead. Ill go into that below.

I'm heartened that even if I am hung I think theres another info for the town to win.

To Dmi's posts:

Dmi takes over from jagged. Notably jagged did very little.

Dmi attacks me in post 138. Dmi asks for a roll claim. This I find very questionable. What am I going to claim? If Im town I say town. If Im scum I say town. The only thing to claim is cop and why on earth would I do that without information? Better yet why would you want me to come out as cop when I dont have any information?

Dmi's "substantive" attack is in post 145. I'll be brief.

After re-reading the (short) thread to date the scummiest behavior seems to be jdtay in voting for an experienced (and impliedly a skilled analyst) player in talitha. However that was so early that I cant put much weight to it at this point. Half a

FOS jdtay

.

Otherwise, kieron is going out of his way to make it clear he is a new player which means he might be trying to cultivate that appearance to look less suspicious or, shock horror, he might simply be what he seems.

That's a stupid reason. Anyone can be mafia. Kieron was trying to understand the game better, the point of newbie games. As were you, so you're being hypocritical.

- This is crap and its been done to death before. Ive seen multiple newbie games where experienced players have discussed the application of the "newbie card". Its a valid scum strategy. I didnt even do that. I didnt even attack kieron just pointed out a possible strategy if he was scum. The original post (around post 20) included a healthy dose of sarcasm (for those that missed it read the "shock, horror" part)

Hypocritical? Not at all. Im simply posting what are my (admittedly and expressly) initial responses to what is some very limited information.

I think your being overly defensive.

Um, you're the one defending yourself right now. And the responses were hypocritical.

- Interesting that dmi latches on to locus's earlier crititisim of my "hypocrisy". I stated my views and the reasons behind them. There was no bandwagoning simply the eliciting of inormation. I really just dont understand this. Even if I am being hypocritical everything is out on the table - how is that scummy?

I think Jdtray is scum because he voted talitha straight out of the blocks and vote for him then im being silly.

Someone has to be first to vote. That's a crappy reason.

This quote is taken so out of context that It makes me suspicious. I was stating my view at the time that jdtay was simply making a joke.

Unless I missed something, Jdtay's vote was on talitha (the get the chicks post) rather than me. Seems an uncharacterstic error to me. Isnt a scum more likely to forget who they have voted for (because they dont really care about finding scum unlike a townie)? Might just be because the vote was random but I find this suspicious.

I'd rather stick with analyzing votes and behaviour.

What? I pointed out an error in jtdays posting plain and simple. How on earth is that not behavior? He forgot who he was voting for. I found that suspicious for the reason stated and said so.

Subjectively I thought jdtay was scum at that point. His taunting of locus just after that raised that suspicion further and I posted accordingly.

Note that was all prior to his claim and the claim was dodgy plain and simple. He taunted locus he claimed on 2 votes rather than 3. Its only because theres been no counterclaim that the claim has been 99% verified.

We have two votes for jdtay. In him because jdtay's "keep your head down" post to me did not seem to him to be pro-town. Locus because jdtay replied to locus's fos for making jokes with another joke and a vote. Honestly jdtay had to know he had that coming.

Actually, just because someone voted for you does not mean you have to vote for them.

Of course not but thats note the point. This makes me think that dmi only skimmed the thread looking for something incriminating as talitha suggested. Re-read the thread. Jdtay didnt just vote locus he taunted him practically inviting the vote.

The claim seems suss. You were in no imminent danger of dying, why the claim. You practically provoked locus's vote and then provoke the people voting for you again by calling them noobs. If your the doctor then your basically asking to be lynched. If your mafia then I can only infer you thought you were going down and are trying to take the real doctor with you.

Dont think I need to use an FOS at this point.

Hypocrisy. You had said you might vote for JDTAY when he was at 2 votes. Then the mafia might have hijacked the voting and lynched him. JDTAY did not provoke Locus's vote. The reasoning that he is mafia and wants to take down the doc with him is plain out stupid. The doc is not worth dying for a mafia. That would hamper the mafia's chances of winning.

The difficulties in jdtays claim have been stated. Its only after the fact that we worked out it was actually true. Again the emotionally loaded hypoctrical complaint. I didnt vote Jdtay. I ASKED HIM TO EXPLAIN HIMSELF!.

I just dont understand the comment about the mafia hijacking the vote. Wasnt I supposed to be the mafia? Look at my behavior. If I was mafia I would have bandwagoned. I did the exact opposite!

The comment that jdtay didnt provoke locus is again wrong. Did you read the thread?

A mafia who was going down might well try and take a doc with them. Again the veracity of jdtays claim was only established afterwards.

Im struggling to establish the reasoning behind your claim. If you are the doctor as you claim then your dead tonight anyway and you dont see morning either way. If your a townie trying to keep yourself alive then your a liar and possible exposing the real doctor to danger.

Bottomline you seem like an intelligent player. Based on that assumption I cant see you playing the way you have if you were the real doctor.

Im 90% sure your scum at this point but as I really dont want to be partially responsible for lynching a doctor day 1 of my first game im going to wait to here what the others say first. Needless to say if there is a real doctor out there they should not reveal themselves.

The point of a mafia game is to make your team win, regardless if you die. If there's a real doc, they should definitely come out. Unless you want a mafioso to get away with looking innocent and manipulating the town. Which may just be what you're after.

I admit I struggled mightily with jdtays claim it just didnt make sense. Note this is pre-no counterclaim.

I admit I made an error in initially stating that the real doctor should not come forward. I wanted more information from jdtay first. Funnily enough in all of the crap logic put forward to prove my guilt that is objectively the thing that probably is the most validly suspicious.

Note however that I asked for everyone elses views before proceeding and I did not even vote jdtay despite my suspicions.

If there is another real doc why should they come out until every other possibility is exhausted? I thought that if jdtay was mafia then that was exactly what he wanted.

Yeah I pursued jdtay for his claim. Given the inconsistencies in the claim can you blame me?

Because one of the worst possible things is for a mafioso to beviewed as innocent. In another newbie game, I was the cop and the mafioso whom I investigated quickly tried to counterclaim cop and nearly got away with it. JDTAY's claim is consistent to me.

Repeating myself (note how its the same argument again and again) Jdtay's claim is consisent now because there is no counterclaim. Of course its bad for a mafia to be seen as innocent. How does that relate to the price of tea in china? Your anecdote has no relevance at all. What because you were a copy in another game and you turned out to be right your innocent here???

To summarise, this is a bundle of crap rolled into a half-assed argument. Most of it centres around me doubting jdtay for his claim before it was verified. No surprises there I posted as much.

The key thing this (and locus's attacks as well) all missed is my behavior. I havent bandwagoned anyone. I havent pushed for anyones death without a full and frank discussion by everyone. If Im scum who exactly am I trying to frame?

Lastly, not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything but im kind of surprised Im still alive. Given my longer than stated inactivity Ive probably been given a longer life than I deserve. What that suggests to me is that there has to be a reasonable chance that the people voting for me are scum or I would have been made dead ages ago.

I am town. The upshot of all this is If Im hung then the town knows where to look. Nevertheless lynching me puts us one half of the way to a loss.

Dmi takes over from jagged who lurked since the game started. Dmi wants me to claim when it could only be detrimental. Dmi has skimmed the thread looking for an easy person to hang.

I think we have a scum.

vote dmi

Ill walk to the gallows if thats what it takes provided dmi follows me.

[Myopia]

Bad day at work?

Dmi takes over from jagged. Notably jagged did very little.

WTF? What does that have to do with anything?

By itself nothing. Jagged didnt post enough to give any indication whether he was scum. But id say its not uncommon to scum to try and fly under the radar. Its a small thing but Im adding it to the rest.

- This is crap and its been done to death before. Ive seen multiple newbie games where experienced players have discussed the application of the "newbie card". Its a valid scum strategy. I didnt even do that. I didnt even attack kieron just pointed out a possible strategy if he was scum. The original post (around post 20) included a healthy dose of sarcasm (for those that missed it read the "shock, horror" part)

Mind explaining how an experienced player would pose as a newbie?
Half assed argument that makes no sense.

*sigh* it would be if that was the argument. the possibility is that a new player might under the guise of asking a whole lot of questions attempt to look like they were posting content. i might have elaborated in that vein if there was an actual attack rather than a simple sarcastic comment.

- Interesting that dmi latches on to locus's earlier crititisim of my "hypocrisy". I stated my views and the reasons behind them. There was no bandwagoning simply the eliciting of inormation. I really just dont understand this. Even if I am being hypocritical everything is out on the table - how is that scummy?

If you bothered to read the thread, you might have noticed that I was a replacement, hence I could not say anything about that at the time.

Ive pointed out where youve misread the thread (more of that below). Why this has infuriated you to the point where you feel the need to make the same argument is unclear. Of course you are a replacement. I was making the point that youve chosen to use the same terminology as locus who was the first person to attack me. Its probably time to talk about that but Ill try another post.

I think Jdtray is scum because he voted talitha straight out of the blocks and vote for him then im being silly.

This quote is taken so out of context that It makes me suspicious. I was stating my view at the time that jdtay was simply making a joke.

So you think JDTAY is scum because he was the first to vote. Someone has to be the first to vote. Your reason is BS.

I didnt say anything of the sort. This is kinda my fault but its pretty obvious that there is a giant IF before that sentance from the context or the "im being silly" part makes no sense. Read the rest of the post.

What? I pointed out an error in jtdays posting plain and simple. How on earth is that not behavior? He forgot who he was voting for. I found that suspicious for the reason stated and said so.

Subjectively I thought jdtay was scum at that point. His taunting of locus just after that raised that suspicion further and I posted accordingly.

Note that was all prior to his claim and the claim was dodgy plain and simple. He taunted locus he claimed on 2 votes rather than 3. Its only because theres been no counterclaim that the claim has been 99% verified.

OK, JDTAY made a mistake. GET OVER IT.
He didn't taunt Locus.
He claimed on two votes because you were about to vote for him. Don't act dumb.
You mention that you believe JDTAY is the doctor. So, did you finish flip flopping yet?

Here we come back to the bit about you (intentionally?) not reading the thread. Jdtay made that mistake before his claim and before verification of that claim. It wasnt a huge deal but added to other things he said it was suspicous.
As for taunting, read post 26 and 40. Maybe its just me but i read the giant NOOB in capital letters as kinda of a taunt - what do you think?
I asked jdtay to explain himself failing which I would vote for him - not exactly an imminent threat was it?
Now read post 105 where I assess jdtay as 95% innocent.

Honestly, out of 8 pages of thread I think jdtay being the doctor is about the sole thing everyone actually agrees on.

Of course not but thats note the point. This makes me think that dmi only skimmed the thread looking for something incriminating as talitha suggested. Re-read the thread. Jdtay didnt just vote locus he taunted him practically inviting the vote.

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE VOTED FOR YOU DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO VOTE FOR THEM.
You're obsessed about this "taunting". Hey, you just voted for me, is that taunting? You have a pretty crappy argument.

see above

The key thing this (and locus's attacks as well) all missed is my behavior. I havent bandwagoned anyone. I havent pushed for anyones death without a full and frank discussion by everyone. If Im scum who exactly am I trying to frame?

JDTAY.

Who I never voted for. Who ive stated as 95% innocent.

Dmi takes over from jagged who lurked since the game started. Dmi wants me to claim when it could only be detrimental. Dmi has skimmed the thread looking for an easy person to hang.

I think we have a scum.

I think you have a mental condition. You accuse of me of being scum on the basis of me being a replacement.

IDIOT. You seriously need to work over your Crap Logic.

The name calling isnt helping the attractiveness of your arguments any. Note how I can say your logic is crap without calling your mental capacity into question.

Normally as a replacement you would earn from me some slack and gratitute that the game can continue. Now in this case either intentionally or not you put me on 3 votes based on multiple mistakes about what people have said. Great big glaring mistakes. When I point that and conclude your scum you fly into a rage. Cant say youve changed my mind.

[Myopia]

To wit, the post that supposedly constituted my impending third vote on jdtay:

Unless I missed something, Jdtay's vote was on talitha (the get the chicks post) rather than me. Seems an uncharacterstic error to me. Isnt a scum more likely to forget who they have voted for (because they dont really care about finding scum unlike a townie)? Might just be because the vote was random but I find this suspicious.

Im wary of putting a third vote on though until I see what he has to say.

Im sorry but anyone who treats this as me wanting to lynch jdtay gets a giant WTF.

[Myopia]

Normally as a replacement you would earn from me some slack and gratitute that the game can continue. Now in this case either intentionally or not you put me on 3 votes based on multiple mistakes about what people have said. Great big glaring mistakes. When I point that and conclude your scum you fly into a rage. Cant say youve changed my mind.

I put on my vote vecause you hadn't responded to my attack. You hadn't posted for 5 days after my attack. I said I'd vote for you if you didn't show up. You didn't. That reason is a pure OMGUS vote that makes no sense, since I warned you.

- That is true and constitutes an overstatement on my part. You did give me a chance before voting.

That was not a mistake, and therefore, you can't "conclude and point out that I'm scum", since there is no threshold.

- I think your scummy because:

- subjectively jagged seemed to me to be intentionally lurking and you are his replacement;
- you entered the game and strongly pushed the bandwagon on me (which was the best bandwagon going) based on an argument that I think is faulty and (more importantly) factual statements that were innacurate;
- you seem dead set that im scum but yet youve now attacked and voted for talitha (which was probably the second best with her being attacked by inhim and jdtay) when it seemed that noone else was going to jump forward to finish me off (again this is fairly subjective but these are my thought proceeses here, the chances of me and talitha being scum together have got to be fairly low - why would she expose herself to defend me if we were?)

- your statement that i am anti-town when whether i have been hypocritical or not (and I dont think I have) I think my actions have been anything but anti-town.

You said I'm scum because I am a replacement. I'm not even going to reply to this: I'm too disgusted.

- Im sorry but your misstating what Im saying and then dismissing the misstatement. The fact that you keep doing it makes you more suspicious to me.

[Myopia]

Damn it, if you people want to quote people, do it correctly, will you? My head hurts from trying to read all those screwed up quote blocks.

My bad. Rushed at work but wanted to make my position clear after my inactivity. Will pay more attention in future.

[Myopia]

I am of course not the cop.

Im also finding it sus that locus and dmi are still attacking talitha pending possible counterclaim.

Hypocrite is a technical term for one who says one thing and lives by another. Can you suggest a word I should use instead, in order to live harmoniously with the town?

Locus this is really irritating me as well.

The problem is that you are simply saying "you are a hypocrite" which is an emotionally loaded word which is one half step above an insult. You arent providing examples of this hypocrisy (talitha asked you point blank to give you an example of her conduct and you failed to). Also extremely importantly (and im talking about your attacks on me now) your leaving it at that without indicating why the particular comment you find so distasteful is anti-town! A hypocritical statement (and again we are going to have to disagree as to whether people have been hypocritical) might be flawed logic and it might not. Its then a further leap to say that its necessarily anti-town. You just say "your a hypocrite" and leave it at that.

At the start, I thought our difficulties stemmed from the fact that I just rubbed you the wrong way. I thought you were wrong but pro-town. The problem is that you just keep doing it. Your attacks on talitha dont seem very well reasoned at all to me.

Talitha explained to you why you were at the (joint) top of her list. It (imo from what she said) wasnt what you had done but that others seemed less guilty. There didnt seem to be anything suspicous about you!

Both times you have been on the receiving end of any criticism at all (my throw away comment at the start about you maybe covering for talitha) and her "list" you have responded very strongly.

I am finding this more and more suspicious. You seem to have signed up for a lot of games and ive come across lots of your posts in other threads. You strike me as a very logical and reasoned person (your handle is sufficient evidence of that). It seems to me that youve either taken a very extreme (and i think unreasoned) dislike to talithas posting style or your not acting very logically at all here.

Im not going to say shes 100% innocent without seeing if there is a counterclaim but saying shes posted less content than inhim or jdtay or kieron/enigma (and im not criticising these people) is just not right.

In short dont use the word at all. I think its weakening your arguments not strengthening them. If you dont like my logic then criticise it. If you think Im scummy then say why and vote for me.

[Myopia]

Dmi and locus are currently at the top of my suspect list but Id hate to think that this game has come down to two groups of polarised townies attacking each other while the mafia laugh.

Maybe we should just put the hostilities on hold while we see if there is a counterclaim.

If not then well theres one argument dealt with hey?

[Myopia]

And Myopia, regarding attacking the cop, I strongly suggest you look at your own behaviour concerning JDTAY, the doc.

Ive referred you to the relevant posts which indicate the actual position. You either havent bothered to read them or just dont care. Either way I'm experiencing a real sense of futility in debating the same irrelevant issues over and over. You grab a leg and call it an elephant.

Id honestly vote for you simply because im finding you really annoying. Fortunately, in this case i think your also scum.

confirm vote dmi

how about voting dmi and taking us to the next day jdtay?

[Myopia]

JDTAY - Dmi claimed plain townie, one page back.

Well, I think King Enigma should claim first, even if I'm pretty confident Talitha's our cop. Stranger things have happened, though, so I'd rather wait for KE to post. Myopia, you kind of raised my suspicions by wanting JDTAY to vote without giving KE a chance to speak. Hmmm. . .

uggh your quite right. i was really peeved when i wrote my post and just didnt think about it (after raising it specifically yesterday). i dont think enigma will claim but god ill feel dumb if he does....

[Myopia]

damn i know it will irk me if i have to wait the weekend to see if our mod confirms dmi is mafia or not....

[Myopia]

Well I was just doing my list of obvious possibilities if the investigation was guilty or innocent but I guess that was superfluous.

I assume youd investigate inhim or locus given your previous comments??

So we vote the guilty party (not immediately so we dont lose talithas analysis). She dies and that leaves three of me, locus, ihim and enigma with one the last scum and a 2 to 1 to decide it.

My suspicion order is locus, inhim and enigma in that order although to be fair i think locus if scummy for similar (but less extreme) reasons than dmi and i was wrong about that. If Inhim is scum hes played quite deftly but I dunno hes always been there to cast doubt for this or that on anyone without really going beyond that at all. Ive just got nothing on enigma at all. He just hasnt posted enough for me to have much of a clue.

[Myopia]

Its really unfortunate that dmi was innocent because it appears that the mud thrown in that argument is going to cost the town the game tommorow once we lynch the scum and lose our cop.

I made a comment earlier about the possibility of mafia hiding behind polarised townies and it looks in hindsight like it was accurate. Just because dmi was innocent (and up to 3 other people thought he was guilty) doesnt verify his arguments.

[Myopia]

Talitha are you going to keep holding us in suspense here?

[Myopia]

Lol locus. I cant help but admire your adherence to the "go down kicking and screaming" style of play. You obviously cant call her talitha a liar but you can attack her for her "irresponsible" ploy. Im interested to see where you go from here though.

I'm curious though. You pushed so hard to lynch me on day 1, do you think you could have talked your way out of it if you had pulled it off? (Tell me after the game).

Im also going to re-read the thread and see what i can glean.

[Myopia]

Complimenting my good sense? Gosh talithas post was one thing but that really confirms it

I agree theres no reason for anyone to vote until everyone has given their 2 cents.

Still re-reading, gosh its funny how much of the later part of day 1 was taken up with stuff irrelevant to the real game. Gosh you and your partner must have laughed....

[Myopia]

Agree with talitha. Things are likely to accelerate quickly to an end after we lynch locus so theres no reason not to take a bit of time now.

OK we have one scum left in either me, inhim or enigma and it will be the 2:1 vote which decides it. Subjectively, I know im town so its one of you two. Objectively, I think the fact that locus came at me hammer and tongs all game makes me pretty innocent but i guess you will have to draw your own conclusions as to that.

After my re-read I have my own fairly solid suspicions about who the last scum. If I get time today I will post them. However, I would like to hear from inhim and enigma first.

Normally, i think that would be a fairly rude request but honestly you guys have lurked a lot and I think its justified (note im not paying you out you both obviously have your reasons particularly enigma!).

[Myopia]

Sheesh.. locus is still trying to kill me.

Its enigma or inhim and im 70/30 at best. Its particularly difficult because kieron posted mostly questions while enigma was busy.

Heres my rundown of the thread for my suspects ignoring all of what we now know is crap. Note this is pretty in lacking in enigma content because he hasnt really said much.

post 20 - my infamous "attack" on kieron
post 21 - locus gets stuck into me
29 - kieron asks whether the experiences players "pre-planned" - i thought he really may have been playing the newbie card here but i kept my mouth shut at the time
37 - inhim votes for jdtay for the "not a good feeling" he got from jdtays "just keep your head down" warning to me
42 - jdtay claims doc after getting 2 and a bit votes
58 - kieron in one of his few substantive posts questions whether the doc should counterclaim
62 - kieron throws a "hail mary" to talitha and asks her what to do
65 - locus castigates kieron for asking talitha what to do
78 - kieron says talitha is helpful
92 - inhim votes kieron for his chart setting out the percentages of guiltiness - notably kieron mixes up jdtay and locus (?)
93 - locus fos's kieron for the mistake
94 - inhim votes kieron for the mistake
- i think this is notable generaly because it was a pretty obvious error
101 - talitha gives her chart with locus/inhim at the top
102/104/109 - locus goes off a bit at being put on top of talithas list - puts me, kieron and talitha on top of his list
107 - inhim has long post wiped - there is no long post forthcoming
112 - locus says he will vote for any of the 3 above
locus and i have a bit of a barney about it - locus says im a liar for saying he didnt find talitha suspicious before - i file this away because he quite simply didnt
118 - inhim says he finds locus suspicous for saying that locus/inhim topped talithas list and locus was trying to make him look suspicous
i found this attack a little odd at the time
133 - kieron says he his happy to vote for someone high on his suspicion list
136 - inhim brings up previous locus post about whether we can trust jdtay without a counterclaim
162 - locus fires the first of a number of volleys at talitha for not posting content
169 - inhim queries the two points made by enigma in one of his view posts
177 - inhim picks up dmi's misquotes indicated he is suspicios of dmi (not that he was alone at that point though)
225 - inhim says im suspicous for not giving enigma more opportunity to counterclaim cop (and rightly to that was an error)
229 - inhim wahts enigma to clarify whether he is the cop


- For enigma, he lurked a lot which made it pretty easy for him to climb under the raider particularly when the game got very heated (im finding it interesting that lurkers get a prod vote but dont seem to get hung very often).
I didnt find the points inhim raised very suspicous. I thought inhim was reaching there particuly in respect to the bit of him stating it was "his view". It might go without saying but its more polite than scummy. I thought his asking talitha for help was odd - i just cant decide whether that was scummy or not.

- For inhim, he posted more than enigma but not a whole hell of a lot more. As indicated above, his suspicions moved from jdtay to kieron to locus to enigma to dmi (of course several of us fell believed that) to me and now back to enigma out of the choice of 3. I dont feel like Im generalising he really did seem to find one person suspicions at a time and he never went back to a former person. Also the attacks were always fairly mild (almost lazy) and some of them I thought were definate reaches (particularly kierons chart error, enigmas near opening comments and even some of locus's statements).

- Now none of this is overwhelming evidence of course. Inhim also picked up some simple errors in the town play (mine included). But I just have the feeling that while most of the rest of us were playing this game he was sitting up a bit higher on the stands yelling out comments when someone dropped the ball. I think that kind of strategy must have seemed like a natural fit with locus's attack dog approach.

- If I just looked at that i find inhim scummier about 60/40 over enigma.

- What puts me to 70/30 that ihim is the scum is what locus did (or more accurately didnt do). In my reading of the thread locus basically didnt acknowledge inhim's existence at all. There were no attacks barely even comments. He never voted or fos's inhim. In particular locus went hammer and tongs at talitha for not posting content when it was clear than ihim himself was posting far less.

For inhim himself his comments towards locus commenced fairly late in day 1 with the very mild attack about locus's comments about the two of them on top of talitha list. It was preety mild, a bit of a reach and went nowhere from there. It was almost as if inhim was looking for something to say about locus that wasnt too scummy.

Thats where im standing at the moment.

[Myopia]

To answer any questions about me having to know who the cop was : I didn't want to lynch Dmi if KE counterclaimed Talitha - this would have definitely given us one scum. Looking back, I shouldn't have kept my vote on Dmi because of this possible situation - my error. As for why I asked after JDTAY cast the lynching vote? I just wanted to know, and feel secure. The Mafia would know who the real cop was anyway, so I don't think there's much cause to suspect me in that aspect.

To be fair while enigma and dmi thought this was scummy behavior on your part I didnt think so at all and I didnt include it in my analysis at all. If you were scum you were always lynching jdtay anway. There was no need to establish who the cop was to kill them that night.

[Myopia]

Myopia- i didnt see where I ever asked for Talitha's help, the only time i think i said anything to her was when i asked why you were so innocent.

This was kieron enigma. Sorry if its confusing but your being treated as an amalgamated kieron/enigma person at the moment. All the more so for me because I really cant read much from you so ive had to review kieron's past posts.

[Myopia]

Sorry for the triple post but i missed this while running through the first time.

Myopia pretty much was clear to begin with, and with Locus' latest outburst, I'm pretty sure hes good to go now.

Enigma to me this is the scummiest thing ive heard from you yet. In your most recent post you were pretty sure I was the scum and you didnt think that locus attacking me made much of a difference.

The reason why i wanted you and inhim to "go first" with your choice of scum was with the impending 3 way ending I wanted you to lock your positions in as far as possible. If either of you said that you thought I was innocent because of locus's behavior it would be more difficult to backflip if I then accussed you.

It was more of a snare (cant call it a trap) for inhim than you because I was leaning toward him. However hes acted fairly townie in his response (although his conclusion for you being the scum wasnt exactly the detailed post he promised). Hes "locked" in his current choice with you. Dont get me wrong im pleased that youve come round to me being innocent and its not to say things are set in stone this prematurely but im only "pretty much in the clear" in the sense that unless both of you think im scum im not going to be the person lynched tommorow. If you accuse inhim and he accuses you then it puts me in the stressful position of picking between you to end the game.

Im finding it a little bit sus that you said i was pretty much in the clear to begin with when the truth is that you either overstated your suspicions of me earlier or youve now changed your mind. Can you explain your thought processes here?

Talitha. I/we (?) apologise for carrying on like your already dead! Do you have anything to add to this? You found inhim sus very early on but when i quizzed you, you said something noncommital. In particular, part of my indictment of inhim comes down to his posting style this game. If thats normal then I have to give less weight to that aspect of my analysis.

[Myopia]

Ok well talitha's post had a ring of finality to it so I guess theres not a lot to be gained in further delay.

Locus. If for some reason talitha has lost her mind and is making things up then we will all apologise. Really. But you've gone well past the point of belabouring things now.

To shut you up

vote locus

... ah that felt good.

[Myopia]

I'm going to have a final re-read of the thread before I cast my vote.

[Myopia]

Ok. Suprisingly enough my final read did not provide any iron-clad, perfectly wrapped evidence of scumness.

All I have is inference. But I think Im as confident as Im going to get at this point without anyone making an obvious error.

Inhim says in post 256 that ke is scum because:
- i am unlikely to be scum because of my bingle with locus (agree with this obviously)
- locus never commented on kieron's play but some minor corrections on day 1
- (to a lesser extent) enigmas posting "oddities" in posts 165 and 167.

As to the second point. Locus commented even less on inhim's play than kieron's. Inhim if you are innocent this was not a good example. It seems to me like you were trying to call attention away from that fact. By your own logic here this aspect makes you more scummy than ke. That this seems to be the most obvious "mistake" you have made is a credit to your play.

As to the third point, ive looked again at enigma's posts. They are just not ringing any scummy bells to me. Polite play from a replacement who doesnt want to antagonise anyone yes. A little bit hesitant yes. Scummy no.

So that leaves us with the first point only which doesnt help at all in determining which one of you is scum.

Added to the above enigma seems to have reasonable justification for lurking this game. If he was incidentally scum at the same time well then ive erred.

For the reasons stated:

Vote Inhimishallbe

[Myopia]

No twisted evil smiley with that vote enigma????

[Myopia]

Grrr... all i had on you was that "i always thought you were innocent" comment. It nagged me enough to do a re-read but it just wasnt enough by itself and inhim just didnt seem very convincing with his rebutal.

Did you guys even have time to develop a strategy? Id be interested in knowing what it was.

Hmm.. guess locus's defence of kieron so early on day 1 was more straightforward than I ever would have believed I took it as another sign that enigma was innocent! Guess I have quite a bit to learn

Congratulations scum. Sorry town. Cheers to all the players particularly talitha without whom I would most likely have been lynched day 1. I think you remained supremely even tempered in the circumstances. Guess if I had of hung dmi would have been in my position and most likely picked inhim as well but it was nice to have survived to the end.

Locus your final posts were quite amusing but I think even someone who thought you were innocent would have bumped you off at that point.

And many thanks to the mod. I hope you had as much fun as your players