13p Normal [TM2015]
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Hooray! I'll read up tonight after work. Or maybe today during work. Don't tell my boss.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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In post 107, jasonT1981 wrote:24 hours later...........
I amsincerelysorry that I didn't anticipate your exceptional need for my attention. Ideeplyregret any suffering you have endured while longing for my hand in yours. Iprofoundlywish that I could turn back the clock and eschew sleep, work, and my other obligations in order to sate your burning desire to feel my lips on your skin.
I have let down my family, my friends, and the sport of golf.
Hopefully I'll be home in an hour and a half.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Lookit that. I got home and it's technically before midnight.
I've got limited experience with Thor and I think nobody else in this playerlist? If I'm forgetting something I'm sorry. I want to say before we get too deep that I've been looking forward to playing with a lot of you and IMO we have the coolest team mafia playerlist.
@jason- why did you comment on my activity, but not delta's?
I like Thor and STD's interactions. They can be town for now.
@skrew- marry me, and after the honeymoon tell me what you're thinking wrt Trojan
@fen- do you feel like expounding on any of your other reads?
@ boon- wrt 139, why is that?
I feel like I'm forgetting something I wanted to talk about but its hard to do this while yawning so much. See y'all tomorrow after I finish with the hell-house.
p-edit oh blarg that case. pie just jumped into the 'persons of interest' group for me.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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In post 158, Egg wrote:Vote sthar
I feel like he's taking easy stances and asking obvious questions rather than telling us what he truly believes.
Examples:
-Delta lurking
-caling Thor vs STD town vs town
-asking fenchurch for a new reads list
-the boon question
It's not that he's being "useless" or anything. It just has a blend in and contribute for the sake of it vibe to me.
Really? I have given exactly one stance and given the other expressed opinions it was far from obvious. I have not given an opinion on delta lurking. I did not ask fen for a new reads list, that is not what 'expound' means.
Had anyone else asked 'the boon question?' Do you think the answer was useful, despite it being obvious?
In post 151, pieguyn wrote:In post 142, sthar8 wrote:p-edit oh blarg that case. pie just jumped into the 'persons of interest' group for me.
what didn't you like about it?
It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Doing this now, everything else tomorrow.
No. You said that I'd either taken an easy stance or asked an obvious question about delta lurking, which is factually untrue. You also said that I'd either taken an easy stance or asked an obvious question about asking fenchurch to post an updated readslist, which is
also factually untrue. Do not pretend you have some salient point regarding your failure to read my post.
So the answer boon gave me ("we have prior experience together and pie is good at reading me") should have been obvious to me, a player with no experience with either pie or boon? That's nonsensical. Further, the point of the question was that boon's townread appeared flippant and poorly thought out. I thought (and still think) that it's possible he was trying to buddy pie. By asking him to explain, we get full details that are either stretching logic or revealing his thought process, and pie can help determine which. From pie's comment, she believes that boon is stretching his logic. I don't know about you, but in my book that's valuable information.
In post 201, Egg wrote:and you were trying to appear to contribute rather than find scum (the Fenchurch and Delta things).
Asking jason how he felt about delta lurking as compared to me 'lurking' let me know right now whether he was concerned about lurkers in general or my missed deadline in particular. In other words, whether he's exercising a policy based on theory or just looking for some irrelevant bullshit to push me on. It could also be valuable as an associative later on, as it could indicate a connection between jason and delta.
Wrt Fen, I was uncomfortable with the reads list in 65. Particularly, the townread on skrew (who has been pretty null so far, I'm waiting on more content to sort him. I think he even commented to that effect himself), the scumread on jason, and the push on STD. But a few posts later, her explanations of those things made me feel much better about her. They were perspectives different from my own but still cogent. That makes any further information she wants to offer valuable.
Wrt Thor/STD, if you needed more explanation, you could have asked. A laconic post does not indicate a lack of justification, especially when I also explicitly indicated that I wanted to be asleep. As it is, I think your hasty conclusion indicates that you're fitting evidence to your suspicion, and not the other way around. Same with the factual inaccuracies that you insist are somehow relevant and the incorrect plural in your reasoning.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Except you were completely wrong about what was going on there. You theoretically based your conclusion on a misunderstanding of what was happening, then when corrected insist that your conclusion still holds with no evidence.In post 214, Egg wrote:I already answered about the Fenchurch and Delta things. They read as trying to appear to contribute rather than truly find scum.
What part of this was supposed to be obvious to me? Just like with all your other accusations, you're assuming I have all the information you do.In post 214, Egg wrote:On Boon, he was getting at the fact that Pie knows he is mislynch bait as town so if Pie was town, why list Boon as a town read?
Whoa! He admitted it was a weak readIn post 214, Egg wrote:Still, he admitted that was a weak read and you (you're not the only one) are acting like he said Pie was confirmed town for that.afterI questioned him on it. Also, show your damn work. Where did I suggest or imply that he said pie was confirmed? You don't get to just make shit up.
This is atrociously fallacious in addition to being unevenly applied, and are you planning on making a pie with all the cherries you're picking? To reiterate, the point was to see whether he was pushing me based on policy or a bad argument. Drawing a connection with delta was a useful potential consequence. Assuming that even seasoned players cannot make mistakes is fantastically shitty play, especially since there was a further benefit and no risk associated.In post 214, Egg wrote:I'd be absolutely shocked if Jason was dumb enough as scum to push you as a lurker vote with a scumbuddy who is a worse offender of the same thing. That's just asking to be connected later on. Even if you haven't played with Jason, surely you realize this is a strong playerlist.
I can be more specific later, but for now my impression was that neither party was informed when they began their interactions. It looks like they were genuinely trying to figure each other out.In post 214, Egg wrote:Ok, so why is Thor vs STD town vs town then?
VOTE: Egg
He's not looking for scum, he's looking for an easy case to push and he's trying to scare me off scumhunting.
I need to think about boon v jason more, and look pie over again. Pie obviously looks way better if boon flips scum.
back later.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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In post 235, Boonskiies wrote:Read Ninja Mafia, there's one.
This needs to be a link if you want me to look at it.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Can you read in English? Egg never asked me for thoughts. He just announced that I was scum.In post 327, Thor665 wrote:I oppose the Egg push, the logic of 'he's avoiding scumhunting' by asking sthar8 for his thoughts is...well, that's actually the definition of scumhunting, methinks.
In post 390, Fenchurch wrote:pieguyn, sthar, Micc - please check in when you can. You've each made around 10 posts or fewer, we need to hear more from you.
Spring break here, so I'm spending more time with the kiddos. Plus I just finished cleaning out the nightmare house, and we moved a literal ton of garbage so I've been tuckered. You're not getting more than a digest post per day from me, but I'm doing my best to make that count.
Becky
In post 427, pieguyn wrote:usually when town posts smth like this it's in response to being constantly pushed for what they perceive as bad arguments, and not a first-instinct snap-reaction in response
That's nonsensical. If egg had pushed me more or pressured me or done literally anything in the way of trying to figure me out, it WOULD NOT indicate that he was grasping to fit his evidence to his case, given that the evidence
was 'you didn't justify your page 6 town read at midnight in your first game-relevant post.'
In post 427, pieguyn wrote:the alternative here is that he's town and somehow believes he's that much of a special snowflake that Egg (someone he claims has never played with him before) would actually be scared enough of him to not be able to handle a few posts where sthar pressures him.
Oooh dismissive strawman. You can take that shit right back to wherever you bought it. Actually, it is just good scumplay to foster apathy and inactivity in the town. By attacking my immediate entrance into the game and painting my attempts to figure people out as scummy, Egg puts me on the defensive. I'll have trouble engaging if I'm spending time defending my first impressions, it makes getting into the game an uphill battle, and since I wind up spending time not generating game content it might make me into a viable mislynch.
In post 430, Micc wrote:Sthar is voting Egg. Id like to see that explained sooner rather than later.
jfc why don't you try reading my posts
I find it interesting that pie is willing to collaborate with what is ostensibly her biggest scumread to try lynching me. Also that I jumped into her suspicions after pushing egg while her case seems to be 'don't like the case on egg.'
I would lynch in {egg, pie, maybe delta} today. I am willing to admit that my delta read might be severely biased. I might outsource my thor read. I'm not comfortable lynching boon at all. Townreads currently are {fen, STD, Trojan, boon}
Only mildly game-relevant:
Those of you making the 'active lurking' argument can just go fuck yourselves. I told the mod I'd be v/la until the 31st, I'm exceptionally busy in meatworld, and I think I'm allowed to spend time with the kids on a holiday weekend. Despite all of that and still not having a place to live, I'm keeping up with the thread and adding content. And we still have plenty of time till the deadline and I'm not getting prodded. So if you can't content yourself with an actual wall every day, please choose from the following:
1) write me a check for some amount that will allow me to live comfortably while ignoring my other obligations so I can entertain you
2) take up a hobby, like maybe sterilizing yourself with a hammer
3) read my posts one sentence at a time, so you can pretend i'm spamming.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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In post 461, pieguyn wrote:what exactly is wrong here? you were saying this angle is disingenuous and that he was coming to a "hasty conclusion". so, for what reason does town-Egg have to necessarily draw a different conclusion from it?
His conclusion was 'trying to appear to contribute without doing so.' But my opinions were not the big popular ones, my questions all had utility and none of them had already been answered. He made a bunch of unsupported assertions involving factual inaccuracies. His read of my posts was not accurate, but he still pushed the same conclusion. What reason does town have to push a conclusion despite the evidence being bad?
In post 461, pieguyn wrote:your angle essentially amounted to Egg being scum because he came out the gate pushing you immediately instead of giving you space. and yes, you're claiming it's because of your real-life situation
That is actually not true. My 'angle' amounts to egg being scum because his conclusions were not factually supported but he still wanted to push the point regardless. Town is trying to determine the alignment of others, and Egg did not care that his conclusion was based on no reasoning. That says to me that he felt the appearance of having a point was more important than actually having a point. Which is scum motivated.
YouandThorare working the 'active lurking' line, which is patently untrue as well as irrelevant to the game. Why do you think egg's argument ('your questions are easy and the answers were obvious') has anything to do with my meatworld situation (I can only post about once a day)?
In post 461, pieguyn wrote:on top of that, this is all entirely discounting the fact that what you're saying isn't actually what Egg's case on you was. Egg's "evidence" was more than just you not explaining reads - it was based around the stances you took in general and the questions you asked.
This is disingenuous cherry picking. I've discussed the other points at length with egg, and to come in and say 'well this one topic of discussion is scummy because it doesn't encompass all the things you have talked about' is sketchy at best.
In post 461, pieguyn wrote:this at least makes some sense, but I don't find it compelling because it's not the type of thing I'd ever do as scum. the obvious counter to it is to not bother wasting all your time responding to said accusations and continue scum hunting normally without regard to their read on you.
I still think the tone of your post read more like scum posturing (although I can't exactly expect you to defend this, so meh). I'm also wondering why your instinct here was to call this a strongman - what do you think me-scum has to gain by strawman'ing you here when it'd be obvious the angle I'm pushing is wrong after you explained it? the more likely scenario is that I misinterpreted your post, regardless of alignment.
You will excuse me for not finding 'That makes sense from scum but I don't think Egg is doing it because I would never do it' to be a cogent argument. Same goes for 'you're scum for tone but I can't explain why.'
By making the point into an argument about my ego, you paint my whole argument as founded in a narcissistic mindset. You're trying to get me to argue that Egg should or should not view me as a threat, and being dismissive both makes me more likely to respond along those lines and makes all of my logic look unfounded if someone reads that point at face value. The scum advantage here is pretty clear.
If I'm wrong and you just misinterpreted the post, then you took my point of 'Egg doesn't want unengaged players like myself getting into the game' as 'Egg should be scared of me because I'm the best scumhunter!' That's quite a leap, and you add a lot of unwarranted assumptions to my words.Ifyou are town, making that leap and then being dismissive of me for it was incredibly rude.
But, assuming that you made that leap, why would the size of my ego be relevant to my alignment?
In post 462, pieguyn wrote:also I'm wondering why you're pushing this:
In post 175, sthar8 wrote:It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.
as a reason for me being scum, while later saying you might outsource your Thor read.
if you have the time, I'd also appreciate gun-to-the-head reads on jason and Thor (yes, you said you might defer it to someone else, but I'm interested in what *you* specifically are thinking here).
Maybe I was unclear: I mean that I might sheep someone else on Thor because my read on him is conflicted. You, on the other hand, were specifically trying to sheep players who are not in this game and therefore less invested in it, without first attempting to read the players you were asking about.
gun to the head, the only problem I have with Jason is the movement of his wagon so I don't want to lynch him. His posting seems pretty good, and although I think his boon case is bad I have gotten caught up on similar things as town.
Thor is more difficult. His early interactions with STD read like he was trying to provoke him in order to make him easier to read, which is pretty town. But he's spending a good amount of time talking about things I think are irrelevant, and I can't recall the last thing I agreed with him about which makes me think scum. BUT the last two times I've played with him he screwed up his role catastrophically. Basically I have this weird dichotomous opinion of Thor as skilled and logical but sometimes terrible, and I can't tell if he's being good scum or awful town. At the moment, based on where the wagons are in thread, I'm leaning good scum.
In post 472, Save The Dragons wrote:sthar8: I'm not trying to be critical but is there something else to your pie read than her attacks on you?
Yeah. She's not really solid on anything (except me and thor now I guess?), and she's got a lot of unsupported assertions in her arguments. There's a lot of 'seems like scum' 'seems awkward' and 'didn't like' which is a nice way to call people scummy without actually explaining why they're helping scum. Same thing in her town reads, lot of 'it makes sense' 'i like it' and such, without explaining why. That's not really a big deal, but she's also looking for a lot of specifics from the people she questions, which is creating an information differential that bugs the hell out of me because it lets scum manipulate the flow of the game. I feel like she's attempting an argument by wordcount as well, because despite the length of her posts I dunno where she stands except on me and thor. I'd be happy to lynch her as of right now.
In post 499, Thor665 wrote:Yes...?
I would say a stated challenge like that is just as valid as a question in offering you the chance to present your counterargument.
Why do you disagree?
Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'
It's theleastvaluable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.
In post 513, Save The Dragons wrote:In post 499, Thor665 wrote:Ffrey is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well.
'The tooth fairy is reading the game and has offered some thoughts as well' is about as convincing as this statement btw.
ily
In post 529, Thor665 wrote:In post 528, Save The Dragons wrote:but I was a little pissed off that I got a literal answer to the question; I honestly don't understand how you think I didn't want an explanation, or that Ceph didn't want further clarification unless your intent was to be obstructionist.
If I was to ask you - is your team reading this game with you?
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'yes' but would instead be a listing of every thought they had offered?
Nah.
If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...
Something is wrong here.
Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Also there's a double standard wrt Skrew that is making the hair on my toes stand up. I need to dig around later and figure it out.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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It is quite clear that you're not following. He did not, at any point, contribute anything to the discussion that looked like he was trying to figure out my alignment. So to claim that me talking was the intended result of his post is silly.In post 543, Thor665 wrote:
In post 536, sthar8 wrote:Because announcing 'I am likely to ignore anything you say' is not conducive to valuable discourse. Also the question 'tell me why you're not scum?' is of exceptionally limited utility. Also trying to get answers on specific positions by stating a poorly justified general conclusion is like trying to order soup by telling the waiter 'If you don't bring me food, I'm never coming here again'
It's theleastvaluable way to read someone, unless you have prior experience with their reactions.
Yet, somehow, it did generate discourse with you - didn't it? Which is the opposite of what you claimed he was doing.
I am not really following this issue.
In post 543, Thor665 wrote:In post 536, sthar8 wrote:
If I was to tell you - you're scum
You mean to tell me your answer would not be 'no i'm not' but would instead be a listing of every thought you had offered?
...
Something is wrong here.
My answer would exactly be 'no' ...or 'that is a stupid question'.
Yours wouldn't?
Yes, it totally would. So why should Egg be able to assume that just calling me scum is going to get me to interact? You're being inconsistent.
In post 543, Thor665 wrote:In post 536, sthar8 wrote:Egg is still scum. Pie is still scum. I might compromise on Thor.
These reads are terrible.
Does your team sign off on them? (I will accept a yes/no answer...since, y'know, that's what I asked, crazy that)
Don't know, don't care. The heartless kids are focused on their games and ETL was asking for my thoughts on hers. Plus she's been sick and I've been moving, so not much in the PT.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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He had decided his position before I reacted. That's not the same thing.In post 546, Thor665 wrote:
Attacking someone to see how they react is *exactly* trying to figure out an alignment last I checked.
Do you not do this?
In post 546, Thor665 wrote:I don't think I am - because he didn't ask you that question nor couch it in those terms.
That said, since you agree with me about what a normal response would be - what's your take on STD?
He couched it in factual inaccuracy and nonspecific vagary. It's functionally the same thing.
As far as STD, I think he's genuinely frustrated and it's clearly coloring his responses. He looks otherwise town. You are being somewhat obtuse, but I dunno if you're just doing it because you enjoy it or because you're scum.
In post 546, Thor665 wrote:
I fully am aware of how useless ETL has been this last week or so.
Do you expect your heads to group scumhunt or not?
Maybe. Consensus is that I'm the least likely to need an outside opinion, I think. Once I'm caught up on everyone else's games and everyone's recovered from the plague I'm sure they'll take a look in here, but I don't anticipate a lot of disagreement.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Conclusions before analysis generally implies some addiional factor. It could be looking for reactions, but that wasn't borne out by egg's following posts. It could be a meta factor, but I've never played with egg before. My scenario fits better than any town motivation, so it's the one I'm going with.In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
Is this really the first time you've experienced this from anyone?
Do you never get "conclusions" before analysis from town?
Okay, well, I guess we can append that to the list of things Thor's wrong about this game. I still don't believe that if I said to you 'You're scum because you OMGUSsed jason and I didn't like your fen vote and your STD position is the most popular in the thread' the expected response would be you listing all of your reads and positions.In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
I disagree, so this is a non-starter for me to see his approach as scummy.
Sure but where you're seeing 'caught scum' I'm seeing 'pissed at Thor'In post 558, Thor665 wrote:Clearly - but frustration is a null tell.
Even while he's trying not to call you names, he's trying to figure out the other players. Not looking for an easy lynch, but trying to suss out motivations behind the posts. And he's been open with his thought process, even wrt you, and trying to cut the bias out of his reads. He's playing an uninformed game, and that means town. I do hate the boon vote, but I'm pretty solid on this read.
In post 558, Thor665 wrote:
You and your team tend to think very alike then? Or you think you have eough pull to sway the rest of them regardless?
Well TTH speaks all the same languages as me. Our hydra was basically one of us saying something, and the other saying 'yeah that sounds right.' When I hydra with ETL she holds up all the parts of the game that I find terminally boring, then follows my conclusions. And Anti just watched me take apart molliegeddon, so he's pretty trusting of my towngame right now. So both I guess?
In post 556, SleepyKrew wrote:What was that about a double standard wrt me?
There was the active lurking note on me, and I remember someone else getting pushed for 'not doing anything' right now. But you've basically stated that you're not going to contribute today and I don't see you taking any flak for it. I need to dig around and see if activity standards are being unevenly applied and figure out what I think that means if they're not. But I'm tired tonight and I'm working a 12 tomorrow, so it'll be Saturday after I help the boys with homework.
I have drawn conclusions and continued developing reads from what I learned there. Those questions were instrumental in developing my townreads on Fen and Boon. I understand why you'd think otherwise since I'm not being super explicit about my process, but that's because my time is being consumed by pushing my primary case.In post 560, Egg wrote:
I don't think the evidence was bad. To be fair, you haven't followed up on ANY of it except in response to me. If I hadn't said anything, I honestly can't say I believe you'd have done anything with it. Therefore, it was apparently a pretty useless post even though it has the appearance of contribution. So I wasn't exactly wrong on it.
And how am I supposed to know that your read is wavering? Am I a mind reader? Also, changing your read after I called you out for having a static read in the face of changing evidence is not particularly impressive.In post 560, Egg wrote:If this was true, I wouldn't be wavering on my read on you. Are you even reading my posts? The above seems to apply more to your stance on me than the other way around.
This is a vote for a low-hanging fruit wagon.
In post 574, Egg wrote:My main concern with Boon is how he first throws out the VI card and then goes all "lol I can be useful" and does nothing. The entire purpose of his game right now is trying to WIFOM votes on him into looking bad.
This is preparing for flip fallout.
@ fen- talk to me about pie. Where's your townread coming from?
@pie- wanna play a question game? You ask me one, I ask you one, repeat until we're satisfied. No agenda, no baiting, just help me figure out where you're coming from.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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That's OK, it's more about thought process than anything else.
How do you feel about meta as a scumhunting tool?-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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VOTE: Thor
Epiphany. I'm mobile, so explanation and fact checking later.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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I'm sorry, but I officially lost my entire capacity to care about an hour ago.
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In post 638, Malakittens wrote:
I lost any capacity to care about anything, but close family/friends since tuesday.
I'd still like you to explain your naked vote and jump though.
I know, and I'm sorry for snapping. I'm starting the drive to the place I'm staying now after having been at work for 12.5 hours. When I get there I'm gonna eat for the first time today, then I'll come explain my vote. I can't do the relevant reading and quoting on mobile and I've been on my feet all day. I felt that I conveyed clearly that I'd be unvoting or explaining later, but I'm sorry if that wasn't the case.-
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In post 637, SleepyKrew wrote:In post 556, SleepyKrew wrote:What was that about a double standard wrt me?
stharry
In post 594, sthar8 wrote:There was the active lurking note on me, and I remember someone else getting pushed for 'not doing anything' right now. But you've basically stated that you're not going to contribute today and I don't see you taking any flak for it. I need to dig around and see if activity standards are being unevenly applied and figure out what I think that means if they're not. But I'm tired tonight and I'm working a 12 tomorrow, so it'll be Saturday after I help the boys with homework.
This is the first thing on my to-do list tomorrow after helping with research for a report on public transportation in the 1930s.-
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sthar8 Mafia Scum
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Okay, so, I totally get that thor's ego killed the dinosaurs when he vacationed in Mexico, and he probably has some kind of socialization or empathy issue that often prevents him from understanding when he's being offensive, but still allows him to take offense when someone lashes back. That's all personality and not alignment related.
But there is a huge disconnect between
In post 499, Thor665 wrote:Players are dumb and play badly without it affecting their alignment.
and
In post 516, Thor665 wrote:I can't get over how derp and scummy that Save The Dragons post is.
"Is Ffrey reading?
Yes.
That's not very convincing!
...bwuh?
Like, what is the magical convincing it's supposed to generate? I didn't claim it supported or attacked anything, but he attacked it anyway after *asking* me to state it.
I don't think he's reading, I think he's just attacking.
And after STD made it clear how upset he was, Thor keeps calling him badin every post. That's beyond the realm of incidental misunderstanding and well into the world of intentional. Thor wants STD upset and off balance... why? He's pulling fuel for his case out of STD's anger, but he agrees with me that being upset is a null tell.
If thor is town, then why does he need STD upset?-
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In post 680, pieguyn wrote:@sthar:whatever happened to our Q/A session? I'm also wondering if you're town reading me now (and if you are, what in that exchange made you read me as town) or for specifically what reason you've stopped pushing me, notably given the fact that I still haven't responded to your last set of questions re: me from a while back.
I'll have full thoughts later, but I worked a 12 on Friday, did homework with the boy yesterday, got called to bus around the end of a teenage party last night, and I'm working a 12 today. I feel like you would know at least some of this if you were reading my posts. Please be patient.-
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catching up now. still at work so might disappear suddenly.
In post 598, pieguyn wrote: do you generally consider attempting to withhold suspicion of, and work with, scum reads as town a valid strategy?
p-edit: @sthar
Not really, no. I guess I can see a theory behind it, trying to see how your scumread interacts with other players in hopes of finding their team? But I see two major downsides. First, when confronted directly for an opinion about their partner, scum of any skill will be trying to avoid creating associatives. Since they know you're town, you're basically confronting someone who is prepared and dealing with you from a position of strength. I much prefer to associate scum through actions, like which wagons they push and who they buddy with. Second, imo obscuring your motives like that makes it harder for the town to readyou, and harder for your thoughts to be used effectively if you die. This is a team game, and making it harder for your teammates to figure you out is not particularly helpful even if you catch all the scum alone.
How do you feel about establishing townreads and catching scum through POE?
I'm gonna do this via spam so I dont lose anything.-
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Im not done catching up yet pie, but do you have a new question for me?-
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Well I'm not but you're helping me figure you out, so humor me.
When I started playing, I preferred big long logical cases and they generally worked. Since my return to the site and the general reaction to long cases becoming 'tl;dr,' I've been working with a single short case post, argument by repeated assertion, projected confidence and answering questions. If I have the time to interact, I like exchanging walls with my target. If I'm wrong, I can usually figure it out more easily the more they post. If I'm right, they usually come off looking bad and everybody's more interested in helping me lynch them.
Who in this game do you have prior experience with? Whose teammates do you know well?-
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I am right. Hiders a shit claim. And if I'm wrong, Thor would have played it like shit anyway-
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VOTE: Egg
If there's anything I missed from yesterday, please point it out to me. A dungeon slime has moved into my skull and is attempting to mate with my brain.
I'll probably have a full readslist later-
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Oh FFS. Homework for everybody: go read Delta's iso and explain to me how he's possibly town
{egg, delta} are my pool today.-
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In post 942, Egg wrote:Sthar, why don't you seem to think there is scum in {Boon/Mala/Vyse}?
Well, I already have two strong scumreads.
Beyond that, Boon is pretty damn town. Mala and Vyse are just now getting their heads in the game, and I'm willing to give them the space to do that. If they lapse into lurking or otherwise become unreadable we can talk about them.
town are {jason, boon, STD}
scum are {egg, delta}
@pie- you don't think that Egg wouldn't be tempted to jump Thor's obviously sinking ship to be a part of an otherwise all-town wagon? Even under pressure, when he knew that he was visibly active at deadline?-
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I'm sure egg is scum. Your iso makes you second place because there's nothing town motivated in it. Boon is town because he's got a good thought process and he's an easy wagon that has had a ton of shit pushes made on him.-
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I could go pbp, but I'm still at work. What exactly is the question you want to ask me?-
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I think you were trying to hedge on thor, and you spent day1 being useless and then being abrasive so nobody would call you on it.-
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In post 1016, DeltaWave wrote:Why don't you tell me why you know my motivations better than I do
How could I know them better than you? I'd say we're both very familiar with them at this point. It's shared knowledge.-
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Your real life issues, mala. I'm sorry but they were clearly affecting your play yesterday. I've been there, I know how tough that kind of thing can be.
Short answer is: Hider is a strong investigative, which Zor was explicitly avoiding in TM setups. Telling Thor that he would have screwed it up was based on the last time I saw him play an investigative, in molliegeddon. He screwed up his role and got shot needlessly by one of the saddest scumteams I've ever encountered-
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In post 1022, Malakittens wrote:
<3
I must be missing it. I just ISO'd Thor in molliegeddon. I didn't really see anything wrong in his play other than he was killed N1.
I guess I don't really agree with hider being a strong investigative role other than it being immune to a nightkill unless whoever they 'hid' behind was killed. Granted I haven't played with a hider that much, but I have been a hider before. Crumbs are the hardest thing for a hider to do because it gives risks.
I mean, he could have claimed and been protected by one of the two available protections that night and gone on to actually use his role... There's also antihero redemption where he shot the towniest obvtown in the thread as a vig. But that's not really relevant.
Hiders get unconditional innocents, and they cannot be directly stopped by scum. In a setup with no strong protective, hiders arebetter than copsat clearing town. It'slessskill intensive than something Zor explicitly did not want in the setups fornot being skill intensive enough. Further, it cannot exist in the same setup as another investigative. Thor was obviously looking to out any real investigatives we did have.-
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Prod dodge for a bit, I wound up with three kids this morning. I'll be back this afternoon to catch up, but if you have anything specific please let me know.-
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I'm really fucking lost and I feel like the day is moving really fast. Does anybody wanna be a good samaritan and help me catch up?
I feel like I'm speaking German and Pie is speaking Swiss. Half the time her posts are spot on, and the other half I'm getting instructions on how to turn a lawnmower into a bong.
I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.
Skrew is problematic, but I'm feeling inclined to give him more time.
AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.-
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Sure.
1. Do you remember the boon wagon d1? Without checking, who wanted to lynch boon yesterday? When did the wagons start?
2. This is going to sound harsher than I intend it to be, but the whole case on boon yesterday was 'he plays poorly as town and he can't explain why.' Which is... not alignment relevant. It reads like jason pushing a crapcase and scum letting him do that because it was good for them. See also: Thor's incredibly neutral stance on the boon wagon while actively pushing jason.
3. The case on him today is crap. He didn't interact with Thor? Sure, he also didn't interact with me, or fen.-
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In post 1160, pieguyn wrote:the tl;dr of it is that her play this game day just isn't coming from town. none of it.
You said this about me yesterday so...
How much of your reads are coming from mastin?
In post 1160, pieguyn wrote:
it's not WIFOM, it's basic common sense
if you see a L-1 wagon on your scum partner, and there's less than a minute until deadline runs out and a no lynch occurs, what do you do? even discounting some of the nuances behind it - no lynch on D1 (or, specifically, the first no lynch in the game) is functionally the same for scum as a mislynch as it still takes them to 3 more mislynches required to win instead of 4, barring PR shenanigans, and it's also strategically better as town gains fuck all when it comes to useful information rather than a scum flip (which is pretty fucking good in terms of information) - you just don't fucking needlessly hammer your scum partner.
it's bad play if he was scum, and I'm not ruling it out entirely, but at this point I'm working under the assumption that Egg isn't a fucking idiot who'd shoot himself in the foot. if it becomes relevant again later, I'd consider it again.
So under pressure with a minute left on the clock, you find it impossible that he didnt consider day phase math. Kay.
In post 1168, Malakittens wrote:I don't get why Skrew is problematic. Can you explain that for me? Also this is probably the third person so far this game that you said you would be inclined to give more time. I feel like you're trying to dance step your way away from certain things.
Because I don't have him as obvtown despite his assertions, and I think he has the balls to just coast as scum like that. But there are a couple things that could mean, so that's mostly me taking in-thread notes.
And yeah, I'm willing to give that more time. Because I have two good scumreads. I'm not sure why that's hard to comprehend.
In post 1200, jasonT1981 wrote:I know I didn't interact with Egg or Sthar on day 1.
you said in the pt you werent going to mention this.
@vyse- vote egg with me. we can live the dream-
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In post 1217, Malakittens wrote:It just feels like you're waiting til his wagon grows and then you'd be willing to jump on it. That's why your comments have been kinda bothering me so much including that one.
im not voting skrew today. let's be clear on that. there are too many better wagons.-
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In post 1223, Save The Dragons wrote:sthar8 old buddy old pal ol' chum
In post 1152, Save The Dragons wrote:I don't actually see a strong case on Egg by you, can you clarify (or point me to) your case?
OK so
1. Egg spent day1 making easy wagon pushes, but his reads didn't evolve with new information or change with pushback, except to get ignored in favor of more likely wagons.
2. bullshit semantics intentionally frustrating arguments
3. Defense of Thor, mostly for bullshit claim reasons that were unevenly applied to jason
4. no scumhunting
5. "I wouldn't hammer a buddy to get townread" -Egg "Egg can't be scum, he hammered Thor"- pie
6. His lynch pool today are two proficiency lynches and a lurker push. On day 2. After a scumflip.
7. Hard defense of delta for shitty reasons after a scumflip. He's either protecting his buddy or trying to look like he's protecting his buddy.
I've been functionally mobile for four days, so no links. If you need specifics, ask please.
In post 1230, Boonskiies wrote:In post 1224, sthar8 wrote:In post 1217, Malakittens wrote:It just feels like you're waiting til his wagon grows and then you'd be willing to jump on it. That's why your comments have been kinda bothering me so much including that one.
im not voting skrew today. let's be clear on that. there are too many better wagons.
I disagree. I think Skrew is a decent wagon. I'd prefer if Delta was lynched over Egg, honestly. Pie semi convinced me on possible Town Egg, but meh. He just seems super scummy. I want Delta or Vyse on a stick toDay.
Vyse and skrew are lurker wagons. We're not doing that.
In post 1232, pieguyn wrote:I'm....... pretty sure I didn't? my read on you was mostly bc I thought your push on Egg was forced. it sure as hell isn't the same as this, nor was it anywhere near as strong.
My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.
In post 1232, pieguyn wrote:I don't think you're scum, but I do think you're biased here because of the way Egg was pushing you earlier and because of how bad his soft defense of Thor looks, and as a result you aren't objectively looking at the whole picture with respect to how the end of D1 played out. him hammering isn't WIFOM, and it will never be.
Sure. Maybe I'm biased because of how scummy egg was day1. But I'm not the only one seeing this, so it's probably not personal bias. And both you and he have made the point that it doesn't look like a planned bus. I agree with that. It looks like a snap decision under pressure.
I think egg's actually anti-town day1 coupled with his thor associatives are more solid than anything else on the table.
In post 1234, Boonskiies wrote:Also, @sthr, why do you think you have been added to my teammates scumdar?
I'm sure I don't care. Why do you think I should?
In post 1246, Egg wrote:Is it too late to lynch Boon?
Holy opportunism.
In post 1248, jasonT1981 wrote:and I feel there is one scum between Delta and SK.. who do you think has the better chance of flipping scum?
Delta by miles. Why do you not want to vote Egg?
In post 1251, Save The Dragons wrote:WRT Delta, I don't know if Thor's scum partner spends the entire day literally doing almost nothing but trying to start a wagon on Thor's other scum read.
Why not? This reads as incredibly advantageous for scum.-
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Right, that's not my point. I agree with a lot of that, but thing like being wrong about in-thread events and being defensive are not explicitly scummy. What I was responding to was your argument that mala'sIn post 1265, pieguyn wrote:In post 1253, sthar8 wrote:My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.
as I said, my reasoning for scum reading you on D1 was completely different than my reasoning for scum reading Mala here.response to your casewas inherently scummy.
I'm sure he did have a plan. But he comes back into the thread to try to get Fen to hammer trojan and get his scumbuddy off the hook for the day and/or look like he was trying to prevent a no-lynch for towncred, Fen responds with a logical argument that he didn't anticipate, and then he's under pressure from me and Fen with very little time left on the clock, and he decides to hammer his scumbuddy to look like town. It's not a long logical leap.In post 1265, pieguyn wrote:pushing that Egg made a snap decision under pressure relies on the assumption that he didn't take any time at all when all this was happening to consider what he'd actually do. I'm mostly interested in why you think he wouldn't actually do this.
On the other hand "you're biased because egg's day 1 is scummy; I'm ignoring that because he was the last second hammer" is blowing my mind. All I can say in response is that I don't think a lawnmower blade can generate enough lift to get the whole bookcase off the ground.
In post 1270, Egg wrote:Sthar, you said at the beginning of the day that Delta was scum. You seemed very sure of it but haven't really commented on him since. Do you have a case against him? Are you still scum reading him. You also said you don't like the Mala wagon. Do you think she's town? Am I right in assuming you'd prefer a Delta lynch to a Mala lynch?
I have a stronger scumread.
I asked everyone how they felt about his ISO and nobody posted anything that pointed to him being town that I remember.
I would prefer Delta-lynch to mala-lynch if we decide to ignore the good lynch today.
I am not townreading mala. She's pretty null since she hasn't really done much, but also hasn't really been given room to do anything but react. But there's no reason to compromise on a null or lurker or proficiency lynch today when my scumreads are viable wagons.-
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In post 1278, Egg wrote:Sthar, I feel like you decided to scum read me as soon as I questioned you at the beginning of day 1 and everything you see, you try to make fit that mold.
Sthar wrote: viable wagons
I'd like to know how you define this. I have one vote (yours) and we are five days from deadline. If mala and Delta both happen to claim power roles, we'll be in the same spot as yesterday where there is no other lynch option and the chances of that working out nicely on back to back days are pretty low. Do you honestly believe you can sway five people in five days?
Yes? Me, Vyse, Boon, TH. Mala will vote out of self preservation. That means I need... one vote, and skrew was willing to vote you at the beginning of the day.
You can fuck right off with this. I said I find your points unconvincing and that one point bad, and you're moving the goalposts on the point I made. Ask mastin how I feel about people trying to railroad me into shit.
In post 1280, pieguyn wrote:Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, I just fucking told you mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "...... DERP DERP NOPE"
So, assuming you're town, I tell you that antihero is scumreading you because *your play.* What the fuck is the townie response to that? I would say "well antihero is fucking wrong." Antihero isn't as invested in the game as someone who's playing it, you can't interact with antihero, and there's no expectation that antihero has some magic fucking process that lets him solve the game from outside it.
Mala's response was "Well maybe this is why mastin is scumreading me." Which is not actually alignment indicative because if she's town she's trying to figure out what she's doing wrong and if she's scum she's trying to manipulate mastin. And what the fuck is she supposed to say to "NO THATS NOT WHY SHE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM!!!1!" Like, fucking of course she's going to continue to disagree. Either she KNOWS FOR A FACT THAT MASTIN IS FULL OF SHIT or SHE HAS TO PRETEND THAT SO SHE PLAYS TO HER WIN CONDITION. She does the same fucking thing regardless of her alignment, so it's not a fucking tell! What other response are you expecting? Should town-mala go "oh right my bad i'm scum?!?"
Are you just incapable of arguing in good faith? I'm assuming Egg didn't stop to consider EVERY POSSIBLE ARGUMENT THAT ANYONE COULD EVER MAKE, yeah.In post 1280, pieguyn wrote:you're assuming Egg didn't stop to consider that people might actually make actual *arguments* in order to back up what lynch they want. why? how the fuck do you think he thinks mafia is played?
So Egg doesn't hammer. Thor has claimed hider, and gets lynched at massclaim or the first time one of his faked results fucks up. His death is inevitable, and when it happens, nobody is going to go back and see who prevented his day1 lynch for no reason?In post 1280, pieguyn wrote: and you're also assuming Egg "looking like town" is more important than outright saving his scum partner Thor, when he had basically no reason to hammer. again, why?
I feel like your reasoning relies on the assumption that Egg is a great player as scum who would never make a mistake, but a shit player as town. One of those is a goofy fucking stretch.In post 1280, pieguyn wrote:I generally feel your reasoning here relies on the assumption that Egg is a shit player as scum who doesn't think. /shrug-
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I'm here, just incredibly frustrated.
I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.
I guess that's intent.-
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In post 1345, pieguyn wrote:In post 1343, sthar8 wrote:I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.
if Mala flips town, I'm more than happy to step back and reevaluate
I'm very very cautious about strong arming reads in games where I've been proven to be wrong. plus the only reason I really pushed so hard today was bc I feel really really strongly about this (and I don't have any other scum reads I feel strongly about).
What? 'Any case that isn't mine is stupid, and I will justify that with mindblowing leaps of badlogic and shoutlouder' is really annoying to play with, and it's making me doubt my townread on you and challenging my ability to engage with the game. Tell mastin that you're channeling her from Sabotage and she can tell you how that worked out.
I fuckinghopeyou're right, but don't think this is anything but 'go along with pie so she stops being such a pain in the ass.'-
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Honestly, it would be p cool if bins caught up first. but we do need a claim.-
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In post 1368, jasonT1981 wrote:@sthar8 - It looks unlikely Egg will be todays lynch.. which between Mala and Delta would you feel is most likely to be scum?
Delta. I was absolutely planning on voting mala to shut pie up.
I feel like this was pretty clear in my posts.
like, super fucking clear.
I need to review the mala claim. i believe the role in the setup, but i gotta check the play.-
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OK. I wanna see Egg and DW's reactions to the claim before I out my own conclusions.-
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town blocking role thinking mala is scum or a second town protective targeting you.
p-edit dont let pie hear that. scum can't make mistakes, remember-
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In post 1390, SleepyKrew wrote:Town blocking role is a bit tough to believe (but should definitely claim if it exists).
logic me through the parenthetical please.-
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