New Newbie Setup

[Not Known 15]

Well full ninja is still too strong imo.

I think it's important to remember that we aren't going for a completely balanced setup, and things that may swing it +/- 10% are ok.

So, what do you think will happen with B3?
We have: Vanilla+JK sitting at 77% town WR.
Tracker+JK+scum RC sitting at 70% town WR.
and we get:JK+scum Ninja+scum Tracker at ?? town WR.
Negative for WR: One less tracker. Scum tracker is -here - identical from Rolecop....
Positive for WR:General setup - incentivizes the Ninja to act, which is not good for scum in this setup. Claim problem for scum because JK only appears with two fully different mafia roles on row 1.
Losing a confirmable tracker looks bad at face value. However, that tracker is not so good for town - it has an equal chance of hitting a killer and hitting a teammate on the T+JK+scum RC setup. Balances roughly as an IC that occasionally outs itself and the other IC. So, you lose less than you'd think.
Contrast this with the more favourable pairing and the uniqueness of the Mafia roles in comparison with all JK+other role setups, inhibiting fake mafia claims, and you'll see that this subsetup is probably heading towards a win rate between 60% and 75%. And that's a bit much!

[PenguinPower]

If that's what you believe, offer an idea to make it better.

[popsofctown]

B3 can be masons.
I'm ok with the baggage cost of masons.
Masons are awesome.

[Not Known 15]

B3 can be masons.
I'm ok with the baggage cost of masons.
Masons are awesome.

Well, we need to remove all those JK setups(without single JK setups the JK+TPR setups get stronger and they are already at least borderline townsided) and Masons look like a good addition in paper. I have realized, however, that Masons are probably not as good as in reality - the win rate might be rather low and there are actually quite complicated claim strategies with masons being present.
About JK you probably need to realize - I needed to do that myself, and it is a reason why I have struggled to find another possible setup - that it is more powerful than a Cop, especially when paired with no other role.

[popsofctown]

Hm
Friendly Neighbor would be cute in B3.
Scum can try to track it so that they can kill the secret IC.

[nomnomnom]

I think Mason is a cool role but that, again, in a newbie setup people might feel a bit at loss with how to leverage the role at all.

[popsofctown]

From a balance perspective you have 2 ICs/ named townies (in the rare 2-2-1 scenario where the scums claim to be masons with eachother it's not exactly ICs but even in that scenario there is great town benefit, after fake mason A is lynched fake Mason B is automatic, and the unpaired player was never in consideration.)

In terms of, are experience players leveraging the mason role better than newbies would, I think, the newbies might not leverage the role well by the way they post in the PT, but I expect they would have

fun

in the PT, and not everything is about balance. Sometimes, there is a little room for fun. Sometimes.

[nomnomnom]

I think, the newbies might not leverage the role well by the way they post in the PT, but I expect they would have fun in the PT, and not everything is about balance. Sometimes, there is a little room for fun. Sometimes.

I think that argument lends itself well for an argument for scumchat, but I don't see it for masons. Care to elaborate?

[chennisden]

Hey guys

I think the fact that there are no hard guilties is good

[chennisden]

Maybe B3 is town roleblocker instead. Idk

[popsofctown]

I think, the newbies might not leverage the role well by the way they post in the PT, but I expect they would have fun in the PT, and not everything is about balance. Sometimes, there is a little room for fun. Sometimes.

I think that argument lends itself well for an argument for scumchat, but I don't see it for masons. Care to elaborate?

You can go far offtopic in mason chat. You have 1 friend that you know is town and you can trust that person when you post speculative reasoning for a scumread where you are so shaky on it it's embarrassing in the thread. You can whisper secrets that probably you should be posting in thread to tell on your role pm but again, not everything is about power, sometimes it's about fun.

[chennisden]

It's way too powerful

[chennisden]

I'm serious Mason is one of the most broken roles ever

[Ircher]

I'm serious Mason is one of the most broken roles ever

{EXAMPLES NEEDED}

[PenguinPower]

I'm a fan of masons in Newbies if it makes sense in the setup.

I think the potential benefits far outweigh the potential concerns.

[nomnomnom]

I think, the newbies might not leverage the role well by the way they post in the PT, but I expect they would have fun in the PT, and not everything is about balance. Sometimes, there is a little room for fun. Sometimes.

I think that argument lends itself well for an argument for scumchat, but I don't see it for masons. Care to elaborate?

You can go far offtopic in mason chat. You have 1 friend that you know is town and you can trust that person when you post speculative reasoning for a scumread where you are so shaky on it it's embarrassing in the thread. You can whisper secrets that probably you should be posting in thread to tell on your role pm but again, not everything is about power, sometimes it's about fun.

Okay, I can see that. I would assume newbies to be more shaky when it comes to discussing with people they absolutely do not know but I can also see it as a way to reduce the stress levels and have a bit more fun.

I don't think masons are obscenely too overpowered if dosed correctly so yeah.

[RadiantCowbells]

NewD3	Column A	Column B	Column C
Mafia	Goon / Roleblocker	Goon / Role Cop	Goon/Goon
Row 1	Cop / Doctor	Tracker / Friendly Neighbour	Cop
Row 2	Jailkeeper / Tracker	Jailkeeper / Friendly Neighbour	Jailkeeper
Row 3	Mason / Mason	Tracker / Doctor	Mason / Mason

This is what I ended up with.

No pro-town claim strategies, less safety for scum fakeclaims without knowing setup info, friendly neighbour is used over IC to avoid several unfortunaet use cases, tracker/doctor and Jailkeeper/tracker have been shifted left relative to the current setup. In the end my biggest goal was to come up with something that doesn't change the status quo too much to make it more easily adopted.

I think that the friendly neighbour role is not super intuitive without an explanation but it's also really easy to explain what to do in a PR guide (ie, let someone you think is town know that you're town.)
If it's deemed too complex, the Innocent Child can be used in it's stead with the risk of ICs rather frequently outing D1 and asking to be jailkept.

[RadiantCowbells]

i also think the principle behind 2d3 (3 different potential levels of scum partner with setups to match) wasn't a bad idea, it was just the execution and the setups present.

[RadiantCowbells]

If it's deemed too complex, the Innocent Child can be used in it's stead with the risk of ICs rather frequently outing D1 and asking to be jailkept.

noting that this obviously isn't a pro-town use case of the role but it's something that is liable to happen at least some of the time and better to be prevented.

[chennisden]

I'm serious Mason is one of the most broken roles ever

{EXAMPLES NEEDED}

me as mason: mislynches a shit ton of town
scum: kill speople who are playing good (not me or mason)
us: endgames with scum

[chennisden]

NewD3	Column A	Column B	Column C
Mafia	Goon / Roleblocker	Goon / Role Cop	Goon/Goon
Row 1	Cop / Doctor	Tracker / Friendly Neighbour	Mason / Mason
Row 2	Jailkeeper / Tracker	Jailkeeper / Friendly Neighbour	Cop
Row 3	Mason / Mason	Tracker / Doctor	Jailkeeper

This is what I ended up with.

No pro-town claim strategies, less safety for scum fakeclaims without knowing setup info, friendly neighbour is used over IC to avoid several unfortunaet use cases, tracker/doctor and Jailkeeper/tracker have been shifted left relative to the current setup. In the end my biggest goal was to come up with something that doesn't change the status quo too much to make it more easily adopted.

I think that the friendly neighbour role is not super intuitive without an explanation but it's also really easy to explain what to do in a PR guide (ie, let someone you think is town know that you're town.)
If it's deemed too complex, the Innocent Child can be used in it's stead with the risk of ICs rather frequently outing D1 and asking to be jailkept.

Friendly neighbour might be an unfakeclaimable role but I think that's okay?

[chennisden]

Goon/Goon Cop and Jailkeeper are problematic though - especially Jailkeeper.

[PenguinPower]

Goon/Goon Cop and Jailkeeper are problematic though - especially Jailkeeper.

Why? Both were reasonable in Matrix6.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cop vs goons and Cop vs jailkeepers was considered a balanced setup for many years. Hell, Mafiauniverse bitches that we play townsided setups yet their version of cop 9er gives cops an inno on D1.

I don't think that it's time to throw out both of those setups yet. I also think that the changes to the setup as a whole favor scum even if they've lost some of their easy fakeclaims.

[RadiantCowbells]

I also think that the easy fakeclaims that 2d3 was largely balanced around have not worked in practice: newbscum and many experienced scum simply are not going to work out the kinks of crumbing and fakeclaiming effectively.
so I think that what scum have lost isn't going to matter that much but what they've gained versus 2d3 is a big deal.
also, friendly neighbour is arguably the best fakeclaim in column C, so I'm not sure why you would single that out as a not fakeclaimable role.

I don't think it's time to knee jerk and start running 9p mountainous because town have won a lot recently. I do think that there's a lot of garbage setups that need to either die or be shifted to a higher level of scum power and I've done that. if current winrates are maintained for a long period of time then we can start considering running solo watcher vs goons or something. but i think that tides will change, eventually.