Blitz 11: Pick Your Power X/Y (Game over!)

[Persivul]

VOTE: davesaz
If you and Ranger hadn't chosen 8s I would have drafted better. Also can't do my traditional ika policy vote since he already has two.

[Persivul]

Each player sends in a

positive

whole number to determine bid order.

Damn you Rob13! The wiki and role PMs just said whole number, so I thought I had a loophole and was going to send in zero.

[Persivul]

I was in the top 4 in the draft phase, doe. And I have the role I wanted since that thing. Go me!

Double-edged sword though...top drafters will have targets on their backs. Making the draft order public makes it fascinating...tons of wifom possibilities.

[Persivul]

Please, with no Titus I was hoping we could avoid spending half of D1 discussing the merits of a massclaim.

[Persivul]

I was referring to 3dice, although I don't know what -_- means.

[Persivul]

Titus?

A player who plays in a lot of games and frequently wants to mass claim and try to break the setup.

[Persivul]

Got it. What;s wrong with the rolleyes?

[Persivul]

I was joking, but okay.

Let's just discuss why ETL should be lynched for picking 13. Because who likes that number anyway?

ETL doesn't like me.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ETL

[Persivul]

I found 3 prior games in this setup and in those 8 was in the top 3 every time IIRC. I wonder if the other 8s did the same.

[Persivul]

13 was the day I was born.

Why do you picked the day I was born?

So why aren't you Jeanne13? That's suspicious...

[Persivul]

Because that name was taken. Don't know how, cos I checked the userbase and no one is called Jeanne13.

Do you use Jeanne13 on any other sites? Can you provide a link?

[Persivul]

Because that name was taken. Don't know how, cos I checked the userbase and no one is called Jeanne13.

Do you use Jeanne13 on any other sites? Can you provide a link?

Just messing around with her.

Can you choose a pronoun please?

[Persivul]

Speaking of which, are you an internet creeper, Persivul. Cos if you are, I will have to punish you. All internet creepers must be punished. I will punish you by having you watch Dora the Explorer all day.

No. Have you ever seen Brian Regan's bit on Dora the Explorer and the Kennedy's? Hilarious.

[Persivul]

Speaking of which, are you an internet creeper, Persivul. Cos if you are, I will have to punish you. All internet creepers must be punished. I will punish you by having you watch Dora the Explorer all day.

Doesn't that show have a creeper in it?

No it has a swiper and a map.

[Persivul]

Unvote; Vote: ETL

I'm liking both 13's already.

I like you too.

Buddying.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 3dice

[Persivul]

When the sky is blue
I feel alive
When the sky is blue
I feel happy

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Sugar is sweet
You smell like beef stew

[Persivul]

No way, I'm not a buddy with anyone that smells like beef stew.

[Persivul]

Unvote; Vote: ETL

I'm liking both 13's already.

I like you too.

Buddying.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 3dice

Pretty sure that was sarcasm again.

isn't sarcasm. and are all acceptable for indicating sarcasm.

[Persivul]

Pizza's here. Later!

[Persivul]

Way to try to frame a case that is not even what I was going for.

Considering your posting style people generally need to infer your cases. Don't criticize people for making inferences regarding your positions when you're unwilling to explicitly state your positions.

[Persivul]

Do you have a case on jeanne or is this just OMGUS for being called trollish in 10?

[Persivul]

pedit: I doubt that Persivul.

Why do you doubt that?

[Persivul]

Perot if you out to just discredit me you can claim scum too, are you saying jenne is a town read?

This is an argument from ignorance fallacy. I don't need to read jeanne as town to note that you haven't given sufficient evidence to read her as scum.

[Persivul]

@Persivul: Because I'm friendly with ika elsewhere and he's OMGUSes for other things. There's a chance that what you're saying is true but I feel like it's a pretty low chance al said and done.

This is just meta without links and specific examples. How is it any different from him saying he's scum reading you based on meta with no links and specific examples?

[Persivul]

Way to try to frame a case that is not even what I was going for.

As for you it's meta

It's very much a case if you

look at her games and how she plays.

Perot if you out to just discredit me you can claim scum too, are you saying jenne is a town read? Cus u mean you can discredit me but it makes you all the more scummy

So Much assumptions so much making an ass out of u and you.

It will be come apparent over time for now I need sleep

Pedit: then you want to be anti-town and not further the game state? Good to know tn.

I don't Ailey rely on meta

either so nice misrepresent there.

Pedit2: not really if you have a null at best read you should have no problem with a weak/no reason vote on it

Can you explain this apparent contradiction?

[Persivul]

This is a blatant lie. You voted somebody over their number choice, which is RVS based.

No I didn't.

FWIW I checked your ISO after reading that charge and I agree. You mentioned 13 in a post with a vote but it's superficial to conclude that the vote was based on the number.

pedit: yep, that's how I read it.

[Persivul]

And I can prove that I am town during the night,

How exactly can you do that?

I believe I picked up on your early soft and I didn't have a problem with it. But, demonstrating it in no way proves that you're town. Scum could just as well have picked it.

So...why are you claiming you can prove that you're town?

[Persivul]

You will be my buddy. I predict that you will be my buddy before Day 2 begins.

I took this to be a soft claim of neighborizer. It fits with what she said - I've also thought it would be a cool role, it would likely be available at her position, and it's demonstrable tonight. But, scum have good reason to choose it too. People in the neighborhood are likely to develop some amount of trust with each other, and that would be beneficial to a scum. Further, if taken by town, it's not nearly as dangerous as other roles (in fact it can be negative utility, particularly if a scum is neighborized), so it's not putting a target on the claimant's back, and so it's easy to explain not being the NK.

[Persivul]

I guess you will have to wait until day 2 then to find out what I really am, unless you're really deadset on lynching me, which would be a mistake.

@Umlaut Do that and you will not like what happens.

1. If not neighborizer, what did you mean by 65?

2. Why so defensive - you know you brought this on yourself, right?

If you have a powerful town role, you've put a NK target on your back. If you're town and have a lesser role, you're lying by hinting that it's more powerful than it is. Either way you've hurt town by bringing it up.

[Persivul]

VOTE: EspeciallytheLies

You know why.

VOTE: Aronis

Serious vote.

VOTE: perivsul

Very compelling reasoning with your votes.

[Persivul]

1. Are you fucking kidding me? Jeanne, do NOT answer this question yet.

No, I'm not fucking kidding you. It's very reasonable to interpret 65 as a neighborizer soft. But she's now implying that she has a more important role than that. What gives? Suppose doc protection goes to her based on her recent hints and cop gets killed, then it turns out she is a neighborizer. Would you be happy with that?

[Persivul]

You know, I was all full and well ready to hop onto Jeanne then you came in here and basically scumclaimed for me.

Oh please, don't try to pin rolefishing on me. As noted, I spotted her soft earlier and kept my mouth shut about it until others made it an issue.

[Persivul]

I was all full and well ready to hop onto Jeanne

Why?

[Persivul]

I saw it the same way as that soft claim. But she isn't claiming. Not until she's at L-1 like anyone else.

Since the soft claim is obvious, either:

1. She has in effect claimed already; or
2. She's lying.

My questioning her is therefore null in case 1, or perfectly reasonable in case 2.

You do realize scum have the most incentive to prioritize the doc role slot, right? HELLO.

Doctor OR Roleblocker

If I were scum I would have prioritized the cop slot. Cops are much more dangerous than docs. Prevent a cop, then take out the higher draft picks while the doc protects the lower ones.

That's immediately the first role I looked at where I said "If Aronis or Umlaut pick this before me, they're probably scum. You get to remove the possibility of a doctor and get an RB. Until we are at the stage of the game where we massclaim, stop assuming "town has such and such" role and start assuming scum have every decent PR. Jesus Christ.

I'm assuming nothing. I'm reading a soft claim for what it appears to be, just as you did.

[Persivul]

You are rolefishing and your questions are abysmal.

The cat was already out of the bag with the soft claim. You can't role fish a role that's already been revealed.

One is specifically asking her to claim and is completely unwarranted

Nowhere did I specifically ask her to claim.

and another is asking her "why so defensive".

A common question in mafia.

Like, barring the fact that she's obviously claimed PR a million times, it's pretty obvious why she's defensive

She took a few votes - no, that's not an obvious reason for town to be defensive.

and no, I'm not going to answer this for her and give her a town perspective and scum perspective on her own question. Then you're immediately voted and quote all of someone's vote posts and try to make them look bad.

His series of votes with no reasoning make him look bad. This is something else that's commonly pointed out in mafia.

[Persivul]

I was all full and well ready to hop onto Jeanne

Why?

I'll explain later

when it's relevant and so the cat isn't out of the bag before the big surprise party even happens.

And for the record, I just want to reiterate to everyone: don't assume any alignment has any certain roles. It's possible that the first people to pick a certain role slot could've ALL been scum and that the town has no pr's at all because they all went for those slots. No, it isn't likely and obviously you know if you're a PR or not. Save this info for another day. Mafia have more information about this than we do obviously and can operate under that.

The game's the same as always. Informed minority, uninformed majority. You know the deal

.

Yes, I do know the deal, and so I'm suspicious of people who claim to have reasoning for a position but refuse to share that reasoning for the uninformed majority to evaluate.

[Persivul]

You're asking her to claim.

Quote me.

I misread this as you saying you wanted doc protect to go to her.

As you misread me as asking her to claim.

But no, this is even worse logic. Because 1.) it assumes we have a doc and 2.) it assumes we have a cop and 3.) it assumes NK goes to her, a scummy individual.

Why is she scummy? Oh yeah, you're holding that for now...

There's no reason to even care about this. There's too many theoreticals for it to matter and a NK is going to be unpredictable by nature. We don't know anything about the role layout. We don't need to know anything about it. And there sure as hell isn't going to be doc protects just because someone claims a PR when they could just as easily be scum with that PR.

Do you think docs just role dice to choose whom to protect? Of course they take PR claims along with other factors into account when selecting a target.

[Persivul]

I'm not doing quote by quote.

And then you go on to quote me.

Yes, you can, by shutting up about it and not asking for clarification on someone's role and/or what they mean. Let the lynch run them up.

You don't know if you're role fishing or not but it sure as hell looks like you became curious about the role. You're looking for whether or not she's a certain role in asking this, not whether she's scum. I don't need to know nor do I care to know anything else about this question other than that.[/quote]
Nowhere did I ask her for her role. I became curious as to whether she was lying with that soft claim, and that's a legitimate town concern. Her more recent fear-mongering about the dangers of lynching her are inconsistent with a neighborizer role, which is not vital to town and can actually be negative utility.

Not really. There's a lot more to it than that. I could ask you the exact same thing right now because you've definitely perked up now that people have voted you and it wouldn't accomplish anything except establish what I already know.

I have the most posts in the game. It's a misrep to say that I've only perked up now that I've been voted. Why are you lying about that?

No it doesn't. What makes you look bad, though, is how quick you are to judge him and attempt to make him look bad immediately after he votes you.

His votes are bad. Deal with it.

[Persivul]

in your nervous defense of yourself

I almost always take heat D1 and am quite used to defending. This is my VT game. If I were scum and 13th in the draft order, I'd just lay low, see what developed, and join a wagon later in phase.

[Persivul]

If we're being smart and sassy about things, I just said quote by quote. I quoted one thing because it was relevant to what I was saying.

"

If not neighborizer

"
You did ask her for her role. And you did so directly. There's no reason that you need to know this as town. There's no reason to make it available for the entire town and mafia to see. If you think she's inconsistent, you can vote her. Asking her "if you're not neighborizer, what does this mean" is not an acceptable way to go about it.

Asking about what seems now to be a lie is perfectly acceptable. Who are you to say that I should just vote her, but not ask the question?

You have. Your posts in the early pages are much different from your posts now.

NSS. Of course I'm not doing RVS posts at this point.

No. You saying they're bad as soon as he votes you is bad.

Why? What's the proper time delay to make it acceptable to point out a series of bare votes?

[Persivul]

Yes, laugh it off. A rather nervous way to go about it and the use of your smilies is forced. There was no reason to mention "this is my VT game".

Of course there is - it

is

my VT game, some people know that, and others can check my meta. As VT I stir things up D1. It's scum who need to worry about stepping on toes.

[Persivul]

I'm going to sleep. Had an exam this morning so I stayed up all night studying and posting here in between and I want to rest before my next class. We'll do this later if you want to go at it.

Not needed on my part. I disagree with you on theory but you seem to be town motivated, and more of this will let scum coast. I'm going to get some work done and see what everyone else has to say.

p-edit: Good timing, I was just going to call you out for lurking.

[Persivul]

Well if you got by role what was you pick percsival?

Can you repeat that intelligibly?

[Persivul]

Current reads:

Town {hinduragi, tn5421}
Lean town {ika}
Null {Jeanne11}
Scum {3dice, Ranger}

Need more info - everyone else

[Persivul]

Reviewing Ranger ISO:

Three reads lists in first nine posts - trying too hard to look townie. Also, the reads are just from townier to scummier, but not labeled - makes it easier to adjust later.

Ranking 3dice as second towniest when he had made almost no substantive posts.

121 - says regarding ika's scum list, "Boy would I love for it to be that easy. I don't think it is." then next reads list in 123 has the same bottom 3.

122 - "I suppose since there's a wagon there I should switch my vote."

[Persivul]

Incidentally, a side-effect of this (even if I'm wrong about Persivul being scum, this part remains true regardless) is that in any set of duplicate numbers, there is a maximum of one scum.

How so?

[Persivul]

I see what ranger is saying. Scum had chat during all phases, which means they knew what each other would pick, and wouldn't pick the same number.

Or they did pick duplicates, with the plan of pointing out that scum wouldn't do so.

Interesting that ranger made that false argument, and also interesting that you jumped in to help out.

[Persivul]

More evidence for why I voted Persivul, btw:

Also can't do my traditional ika policy vote since he already has two.

If Persivul were town, he wouldn't care about there being a wagon on ika.

Why is that? Scum stands to benefit by an early wagon taking off, as it might stick.

I'm liking my scum team better all the time.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ranger

[Persivul]

This is of course highly speculative without a flip, but if Ranger's bit about only 1 scum in duplicates was a scum slip, then:

Scenario 1 - 3dice and ETL chose 13s for cover, Ranger chose 8 hoping to be alone with it and get a decent PR - in my research I found 3 games of this setup, and 8 was top 3 in each of them IIRC

Scenario 2 - Ranger and davesaz chose 8s for cover, 3dice

or

ETL chose 13 thinking it was a safe solo number

[Persivul]

My bad, it's L-2.

Yep, and hinduragi and hiplop are the only decent votes on that wagon.

[Persivul]

Just asking for time to make a final reads list...won't take long.

[Persivul]

Town {Hinduragi, tn5421, umlaut} - Hinduragi & tn: just read their ISos. umlaut: seems to be the only person who understands that "Jeanne is the one who kept bringing up her role and Persivul is just responding to that" and has the guts to say it.

Lean town {ika} - mostly based on meta.

Null {Jeanne} - really can't tell if there's something scummy there, or if she just got too excited about a PR and couldn't resist saying something, now concerned about personal survival.

Lean scum {ETL, davesaz} - ETL: not her town meta from Blitz 1. davesaz - just from my ealrier theory, on his own not enough info to go on.

Scum {Ranger, 3dice} - Reasons already given.

Insufficient info: All the rest. hiplop's a weak town read.

[Persivul]

ika dont quickhammer so I can get a claim from persi?

I claimed VT some time ago.

[Persivul]

@Jeanne voters: note that jeanne is itching to use her role, and

vengeful

is a possible role. Just sayin...

[Persivul]

oh. Thats kind of disappointing

I'm 13th in the draft order...what were you expecting?

[Persivul]

@Persivul Lies. Ranger is 13th.

No, I'm 13th. Interesting you think that when it's clear in mod's post. Did Ranger screw up in your PT?

Downgrade Jeanne from null to lean scum.

[Persivul]

I'm off to get a tattoo...be back in a few hours.

[Persivul]

Okay, so in #181 Jeanne votes Persivul. Which is the 2nd biggest wagon next to herself at the time. Alone the vote isn't too bad imo, but it's what happens after. Then she votes Ranger for scumreading her. But the Ranger wagon is not gaining traction like she was hoping, so she swaps back to Persivul citing her reasoning as Ranger not being online. She's apparently terrified of getting lynched bc she has a power role and is going to push every1 else that's viable to survive and hop wagons at will. Not very town play imo.

The question is...is it scummy play, or town who really wants to use her power role? Yes, it's anti-town either way, but I'd rather lynch scum than selfish town.

[Persivul]

Yes, it is. Not giving a damn about who gets lynched is scummy.

Why do you think scum don't give a damn who gets lynched?

The two prevailing wagons are a 13 and a 4 in the draft. If both are town, it seems to me that scum would greatly prefer that the 4 get lynched.

[Persivul]

Persival, draft order is not the only reason for scum to prefer one lynch over another.

Sure, it's not the only factor, but it's definitely a factor unless the scum are idiots.

I think it's a big mistake to concentrate too fully on that. Unless scum are all on your wagon already, they have had a third of the day phase to slip onto your wagon, and a lynch is a lynch in their eyes.

Have to disagree there. If I'm completely wrong with my reads, they're less motivated to lynch me. if I'm right, they're more motivated. It's simplistic to say a lynch is a lynch. Do you seriously not consider these things when you're scum? Sure, from scum POV any town lynch is better than a scum lynch, but good scum are putting a lot more thought into it than that, and particularly when they have day talk.

[Persivul]

ok so... i got busy with work yesterday and we're doing tons of OT, and i don't have the will to make specific notes about every little thing.

You're active lurking and making excuses. You made around twenty posts in other games throughout the day yesterday (my time). Further, this is nothing like your activity in Blitz 1, in which you were town. In that game you had the highest post count despite not surviving all the way to the end.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ETL

[Persivul]

Scratch "active," it's just lurking.

[Persivul]

We're not even 45% into phase. Three people have single-digit post counts. To anyone looking for a lynch already...why?

[Persivul]

Managerial accounting - what's your major? Did you consider accounting itself? CPA field is wide open.

[Persivul]

ok so... i got busy with work yesterday and we're doing tons of OT, and i don't have the will to make specific notes about every little thing.

i skimmed through the rest of it

but i will need some help.

right now i'm working through finding some town reads - so far liking Hindu, 3dice and Ranger. Ideas and things they've noticed match up with my own thoughts. Still happy with my vote on Persivul. Jeanne seems like silly newb - not sure if town or scum but I would wager town. Not really interested in lynching her today. I'd also vote Aronis - hasn't done much of anything at all.

right now i want to see persivul's flip

and go from there.

Huh...considering that:
- you admittedly have only skimmed parts of the thread, and
- there's more than half of phase left
I would think that you wouldn't want any lynch at this point.

[Persivul]

scum is somewhere in the rest. sorting those now.

But you already know that you want to see my flip and go from there...

[Persivul]

O my God is this really happening?

Is what really happening - a charge of lurking? Yes, that really happened, and is quite common in mafia games. When her overall activity lined up with her activity here, I didn't press it. But considering her ability to make ~20 posts elsewhere yesterday, it was a reasonable point to make. You certainly are judgmental of others' points of inquiry.

She's clearly busy,

Now it's clear, before her response it was not at all clear, as she was posting elsewhere throughout the day.

[Persivul]

Oh my, I made an off topic post.

[Persivul]

i am simply expressing my distaste for persivul, who blatantly ignored my request to avoid me and signed up for a game i was already signed up for.

Do you think that affects your read on me?

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: ETL
Looking better now that she's posting.

VOTE: Kop
Policy vote. This is a blitz game. Two posts nearly halfway into phase doesn't cut it.

[Persivul]

persy we're not fucking policy lynching

I know. Doesn't mean I can't put a vote there on principal for awhile.

[Persivul]

Actually I believe I've been hammered, although I'm not sure as there hasn't been a VC in awhile.

Good luck town! My reads haven't changed dramatically since last list. I'm about to head home and can't do a revision, but if Rob doesn't close it I'll try.

[Persivul]

My .02:

Jeanne should be lynched tomorrow. Analysis of my wagon and her wagon today could say a lot. If she flips town, remember that I'm 13 and she's 4 - could be an indication that my reads were on track.

If I were cop, I'd investigate Ranger tonight. She's garnered a lot of town reads on not much more than spamming reads lists. I expect that in a newbie game, but not here. It's doubtful you can get a lynch on her, so an investigation makes a lot of sense. Also the interaction between her and ETL was really bad.