Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Corvuus]

Ok. I'll accept responsibility for this loss. I am unhappy/dissatisfied that it was a deadline no lynch that caused the loss, but I could have tried to actually be convincing and not just "ML must die, hurry and hammer".

Claiming SK was spurious of me but
1. LF made his ridiculous claim, so I felt I could too.
2. I felt it covered all possible situations and scenarios (i.e. whether LF was SK or scum).
3. I was town enough and with 2 scum left, I couldn't possibly be lynched.

I didn't think claiming SK would result in 2 weeks of worrying about why I claimed SK (when if Elmo, etc. said I was lying town, make a conclusion as to WHY I was claiming and lying SK. I.e. because i thought LF 'may' be a SK (or scum) but DEFINITELY LF is anti-town and needs to die. Whether by lynch or NK.)

------------

For Qwints:

I gave you the hardest time and I am stubborn but you DID convince me you were the doc. Illumina brought it up again and I defended you but your answers to Illumina were not great to me. If you hadn't said what you said but just said (I already defended my doc claim to Corvuus, see my response) then I wouldn't have thought you scummy but what you said and how you said it (perhaps grammar choice by you?) was quite bad.

If you are the doc, and you know you are the doc, then why did you make your response and choose words that make you not seem like a doc but something else? You weren't the first person to ask for a massclaim (i think Elmo or jazz?) and I initially liked massclaim but what you said and how you said it was really bad. You claimed that massclaim would verify you (it wouldn't) and that several other things would occur that, quite simply, are impossible.

That, and if, like Jazz had read, you had actually meant the 'inoculate' part and mentioned it as a breadcrumb, did a better job with Atlas and why no CC on SC, then it would have been much more believable. Ironically, if I had split my post that made you claim into two parts (asking you to claim, and then saying what I didn't like about your flip vote on SC), then I would have liked you as a doc more.

Corvuus

[Elmo]

Well, we lost because no-one hammered at deadline, that's not directly anyone's fault. I don't actually know what else I could have done, given it might have happened at any point. I think based on what you said post-game, if I'd been around to hammer, we probably would have won tomorrow, so I don't think you're responsible for it. That said, all the stuff about claiming SK and claiming to believe LF for his vote was just unnecessary; we probably would have had this wrapped up in a week if you said "I think LF and ML are mafia, more sure about ML" and left it at that. It wasn't a lack of being convincing, really.

At least in my perception, you said repeatedly that you believed LF's claim and only slightly relented in order to get me to hammer. The problem is that because you've repeatedly lied, I have no idea what to think; it seemed likely that you really still believed him and were lying merely to get ML lynched. I don't think you ever said that you didn't believe him or thought he was scum.

I didn't ever want to talk about a SK, I said I was convinced there wasn't one and unless someone gave me a good reason, I'd ignore it. The reason I didn't hammer ML immediately was what I said, repeatedly: if you believed LF, which you said you did, then lynching ML is a town loss, because you'll hammer whichever townie is alive tomorrow. And you're actually pretty lucky about claiming SK, I think a majority of people on this site would have lynched you purely for that.

Claiming SK is not remotely good play for any alignment, I think. The scenario that seems most likely is that he's a townie who believes there's a SK and two mafia and has a Masterful Plan involving a fakeclaim and crosskills. Which

never turns out well

. Not least because there is

no good reason

to believe a SK exists, which means we have some ridiculous overcomplicated situation instead of, you know, hunting the scum, as well as the fact that right now

no-one

has any idea what you're doing or what you want to happen. And apparently you've totally set your sights on me being scum and would lynch me tomorrow, for reasons totally passing understanding. Grate.

TBH this, really, it's just yet another example of why townies should

never

lie and need to be as clear as possible about what they think.

p.s. I don't hate you; I never take these games personally, and like I said, smart people sometimes do dumb things under stress and uncertainty

[Corvuus]

LF:

My offer stands.

Elmo and ML are discussing your lynch. Either they believe you are the SK or whatever. Either way, I don't think they are offering you anything but trying to lynch you.

I am offering you a hat game claim. You, me, Illumina vote and kill Elmo-ML (let's do ML first) as the scum team. The fact that they are even asking each other things in post is enough for me to accept them as team scum now.

I claim SK. Whether I am or not, it is up to scum decide. At this point the SK could be me, Illumina, or heck even you LF hiding behind a neutral survivor claim. Either way, it looks like you are either today's lynch LF or you trust me and we see who scum decide it is more important to kill.

That is the best I can offer you.

If you think I am lying and I'm really scum, at the very least, i am still offering to not lynch you today as long as you vote to lynch ML and if I am scum (with illumina as my ally?), then i will have won and so will you as you would satisfy your win condition.

Either way, I think your best option is to vote ML.

Vote ML

Corvuus

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, let's take this slow and do it right. It seems to me this all hinges on whether LF is SK or lying mafia, am I right? Does town have the best chance (or most likely draw game) lynching mafia today?

Assuming that's the case, it looks like either LF or Macavity for scum today. Most of what I had on LF assumed qwints was his buddy, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be scum.

Macavity: can you convince us that LF is scum and not you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Illumina:

for Qwints successfully blocked a kill every night, are you basing that on what Qwints himself said or on what LF said?

If you doubt that, and think there is no SK, then your case on LF isn't that he is SK but that he is mafia?

If so, then who is his buddy? If it was Elmo, the game may already be over if Elmo hammers ML. If it is you, then the game also may be over if you hammer ML.

If you think LF is scum, then his scumbuddy has to be ML, in which case, what is the point of this discussion in determining which?

I guess that is my confusion regarding both Elmo and Illumina. You say LF is scum, but the only possibility (if we take you both out of it, and you both say I am town despite everything, either way I have nothing with LF) is that ML is his scumbuddy, yet you won't vote.

What is the reason?

C

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There are more quotes I could reference but it starts with my fakeclaim and, when you ask me why I did it, I didn't say "why" since I thought it was obvious (I already said it was a hat game. I.e. I'm not a SK, but I will claim SK just in the off chance there are 2 scum and a SK (LF).)

Illumina said LF is either scum or SK. I agreed and said, "OK, lets lynch ML already and night kills will resolve it".

You said scum are ML-LF. I said "ok, hammer ML and night kills will resolve it".

Anything other than hammering, I interpret as bad.

As for what I said and discussed:

1. I was playing under the idea of 2 votes being a deadline lynch and that I bullied LF into voting ML sufficiently, so I didn't care about further discussion and I wanted to KEEP LF's vote to win deadline or get hammer (i hoped by Illumina).

-> thus, when you (Elmo) say he is lying, there is no SK, etc. I say I don't care or it doesn't matter to me and I did say I didn't believe his claim when you first started. I.e. I don't want to defend LF but I don't want to hang him out to dry since he IS voting with me on ML certain scum. Neither you or Illumina voted and while LF 'may' be scum to me, ML was certain, etc. , everything would be resolved/revealed tomorrow (someone dies, discussion, etc.) so that is why I took a hardline approach.

As for why I said I believed LF... it is because you guys refused to hammer ML and you kept attacking LF and wanted LF as today's lynch, then I had to say I believe him because I wanted ML as the day's lynch since LF's alignment would be known 'tomorrow' and in the off chance he was SK (with 2 scum) it would be town's optimal play/best chance at winning (hoping for Crosskills).

So perhaps the confusion was that you wanted LF as the day's lynch. I wanted ML. We were both willing to do ML-LF (in some order) but I wanted ML as the day's lynch since I was sure while I was iffyish on LF but night actions resolve it (to me. i.e. ML dies, no SK, LF is a liar since no SK, no neutral survivor, etc.). The more you argued that LF was the day's lynch over ML, the more I would defend/say I believe LF in order to get ML lynched.

So when I made my 'concession', it was already my 2nd attempt at talking to you guys and, from my point of view, it was "pointless" and I was fed up with both of you since, at some point, both of you said ML is scum, LF is his buddy but wouldn't hammer ML or vote and I could not understand "why".

The argument you made about me in a 3man lylo instantly voting was silly to me and that is why I responded with, "obviously, I won't instant vote in lylo, and we can discuss and do everything but we have to lynch scum today and night kills resolve/reveal everything". What else can I say without having to say "everything" and risk losing LF's vote (since I was going to test him via night action) and I was close to a hammer and didn't want to 'backtrack'/lose progress.

I didn't think it that hard of a leap to think: Corv is town, he claimed SK? why? He believes there is a SK? Doesn't make sense, but it doesn't really 'matter'. Corv as scum claiming SK out of the blue makes zero sense so Corv is either town or SK, most likely not SK, so why claim SK unless he wants SK's vote, or is testing/figuring it out, LF is SK? ML is the only one who said Corv is scum for claiming SK (which makes no sense and confirmed my belief even more).

By claiming SK, I ensured that either I or LF would be the NK (i.e. 2 scum and SK, scum have to assume it is either me or LF). If neither of those options happened, then LF is scum. etc. etc.

Which is why I said you have to prove LF is scum beyond ML, and why I went from my earlier statement of "not believing LF and he is a punk for his actions" (early day post) to saying, "i believe him". I didn't want LF as the day's lynch. Oh well, I could have done it differently and 'less' effort in possible circumstances and maybe not claim SK and Illumina hammer ML, one of us dies (illumina) and then no SK -> LF is scum.

It is also interesting to note, that both scum repeatedly tried to say "1 scum, 1 SK" or other role speculations and they were simply ignored. I assumed 2 scum and SK or 2 scum and no SK, and I didn't care or listen to anything ML-LF said at that point as long as I got a ML hammer.

Corvuus

[Elmo]

There are more quotes I could reference but it starts with my fakeclaim and, when you ask me why I did it, I didn't say "why" since I thought it was obvious (I already said it was a hat game. I.e. I'm not a SK, but I will claim SK just in the off chance there are 2 scum and a SK (LF).)

I don't think anyone apart from you has the faintest idea what a "hat game" is.

I didn't stand a chance of figuring out why you claimed SK, because your reason for doing so is based around one existing when I've been pointing out that there's no reason to believe one exists for

days

. It makes no sense, even post-game.

As for why I said I believed LF... it is because you guys refused to hammer ML and you kept attacking LF and wanted LF as today's lynch, then I had to say I believe him because I wanted ML as the day's lynch since LF's alignment would be known 'tomorrow' and in the off chance he was SK (with 2 scum) it would be town's optimal play/best chance at winning (hoping for Crosskills).

No, you didn't have to. You

don't need LF's vote

. In fact, you don't even need ML lynched today, but even assuming you do, the best way is to talk us into lynching him. Seriously, what is LF's play if you say you disbelieve him and say he's public enemy #1? Nothing. He has nothing. It

doesn't matter

.

And I can't even now understand how night actions resolve it. LF's argument tomorrow is very simple, there was 2 mafia, 1 SK. The nightkill or lack thereof doesn't tell us anything. This is even after the incredibly unlikeliness of a SK in the first place.

By claiming SK, I ensured that either I or LF would be the NK (i.e. 2 scum and SK, scum have to assume it is either me or LF). If neither of those options happened, then LF is scum. etc. etc.

No, you didn't ensure that, and even if you did, it doesn't help us at all. :/

The more you argued that LF was the day's lynch over ML, the more I would defend/say I believe LF in order to get ML lynched.

This is even at the point where you believe whole-heartedly he's scum. WHY would you defend someone you stongly suspect of being scum?

I don't think I ever said I was set on lynching LF; the only thing I said was that if you were convinced about LF, then we had to lynch him today. And you kept giving that impression. I also didn't say that you'd instantly vote in LyLo, merely that you'd end up voting for me over LF. Given

what you'd said

, that seems reasonable to me, and as far as I can tell even the scum agree with that. I actually intended to reread and then probably vote for whichever of ML or LF seemed scummier, but I woulda been happy to lynch ML.

Do you get what the correct play for you was at this point?

[Elmo]

Also, you're repeatedly saying that you HAD TO get ML lynched today. No.. really, you didn't, if there's some good argument about why he's a better lynch than LF, just calmly point out why that is. If we're town, we should be listening. Trying to browbeat me into doing what you want was a really bad idea. Most people would just have torn into you right about there, I think. In any respect, it's a team game, we should be trying to figure out the best play together rather than one person trying to impose some course of action. That's another thing that almost never ends well.