Mafia Skills

[Cadmium]

What's the most important skill to have under control when playing mafia? The ability to scan the game thread and pick out the scum? Or the ability to convince the other players to lynch someone? Maybe something else?

You probably think: "How would convincing others work if you can't find the scum in the first place?". True, but some lynches are lucky guesses. And what if you're mafia, wouldn't you want to convince others more than looking for other scum?

Or what if you're a vigilante. What vigilante would want to convince others? He'll simply decide on his own who seems scummy and whether or not he'll kill that player for it.

In short, there are different kind of skills and different kind of roles. Some skills are more important to one role, other skills are more important to another. But what could we consider the most important skill of them all?

[Dasquian]

I reckon the most important skill is being able to walk the fine line between looking lynchable (so not getting night-killed), and not actually getting lynched. That skill applies to town and scum alike, because scum want to stay alive as long as possible, and a townie who the scum underestimate or think they can get lynched til it's too late are always useful.

I think the most useful town skill is to be able to discern when someone's behaviour is genuine and when it's a cynical act... ie, to have good "gut feeling". The most useful scum skill is the converse - being able to appear entirely candid, so you don't appear on anyone's radar

[Yanqush]

Being vocal at the same time being consistent with everyone else (just as innocent/guilty looking) as well as yourself especially as the days & nights progresses.

[Internet Stranger]

I wouldnt know.

[shadyforce]

Skills rquired for playing mafia:

1. The ability to read between the lines, to analyse hints and tells, and to find scum/doctors/cops/etc.

2. The ability to persuade the town to follow your line of thinking, to present your evidence clearly, and to convince and lead the town to your preferred outcome.

3. The ability to do suspicious things in a non-suspicious manner, and to be able to lie without giving yourself away.

The third one mainly applies to scum, and maybe to a very small extent town but without a doubt, the first 2 are by far the most important. It's a toss up between the 2 as to which are more important though.

Dasquin and Yanqush:

Your proposed skills seem to be more towards surviving rather than winning. And don't give me the "if your alive at the end, you've obviously won" argument. Being an expert at survival will only delay your loss via cop claim, or end-game kill.

[mith]

The second tends to be a result of the first. Unless you just can't post at all logically.

The key is to develop the ability to pick out scum at a rate high enough to be useful (i.e. significantly better than completely random). You will never get all the scum all the time, but if you are right often enough, people will begin to pay attention. As scum, if you have developed your scum catching abilities sufficiently, obviously that will help if there is more than one evil group, but even if yours is the only family, your method (whatever it may be) will begin to provide you with reasonable innocents (i.e innocents that you would probably pick out as scum if you weren't scum yourself).

As scum (and keep in mind, I've only actually played as scum maybe once or twice in the past year ), I tend to dissociate myself from the family as much as possible. I let them make decisions on who to kill, etc. Then I treat day as though I was just my usually sparkling innocent self. I pick out scum, generally without regard for the fact that I actually know who the scum are. Or, more often, someone attacks me and I defend myself and counter attack (it's easy to get away with an innocent lynch if they attacked you first). I am confident in my ability to be a very difficult lynch.

That isn't to say that I don't give *any* input to the family. If there is a key decision that I feel needs to be made, I'll let them know (i.e. I think someone is a Doc or whatever). And whether I push for the lynch of a fellow scum obviously depends on the game situation (how many we have left and such). Also, this by nature can not work for everyone. Someone has to make the decisions, after all.

[mith]

The second tends to be a result of the first. Unless you just can't post at all logically.

The key is to develop the ability to pick out scum at a rate high enough to be useful (i.e. significantly better than completely random). You will never get all the scum all the time, but if you are right often enough, people will begin to pay attention. As scum, if you have developed your scum catching abilities sufficiently, obviously that will help if there is more than one evil group, but even if yours is the only family, your method (whatever it may be) will begin to provide you with reasonable innocents (i.e innocents that you would probably pick out as scum if you weren't scum yourself).

As scum (and keep in mind, I've only actually played as scum maybe once or twice in the past year ), I tend to dissociate myself from the family as much as possible. I let them make decisions on who to kill, etc. Then I treat day as though I was just my usually sparkling innocent self. I pick out scum, generally without regard for the fact that I actually know who the scum are. Or, more often, someone attacks me and I defend myself and counter attack (it's easy to get away with an innocent lynch if they attacked you first). I am confident in my ability to be a very difficult lynch.

That isn't to say that I don't give *any* input to the family. If there is a key decision that I feel needs to be made, I'll let them know (i.e. I think someone is a Doc or whatever). And whether I push for the lynch of a fellow scum obviously depends on the game situation (how many we have left and such). Also, this by nature can not work for everyone. Someone has to make the decisions, after all.

[shadyforce]

The second tends to be a result of the first. Unless you just can't post at all logically.

You'd think that but there are many examples of people picking out scum and getting lynched for their troubles. you only have to look at the new award suggestion: "Cassandra Award".

The key is to develop the ability to pick out scum at a rate high enough to be useful (i.e. significantly better than completely random). You will never get all the scum all the time, but if you are right often enough, people will begin to pay attention. As scum, if you have developed your scum catching abilities sufficiently, obviously that will help if there is more than one evil group, but even if yours is the only family, your method (whatever it may be) will begin to provide you with reasonable innocents (i.e innocents that you would probably pick out as scum if you weren't scum yourself).

The problem is, if you get so good at picking out mafia, you would be screwed when you are mafia as the town would expect you to constantly find them, and continual failure to do so will just heighten your suspicion.

As scum (and keep in mind, I've only actually played as scum maybe once or twice in the past year ), I tend to dissociate myself from the family as much as possible. I let them make decisions on who to kill, etc. Then I treat day as though I was just my usually sparkling innocent self. I pick out scum, generally without regard for the fact that I actually know who the scum are. Or, more often, someone attacks me and I defend myself and counter attack (it's easy to get away with an innocent lynch if they attacked you first). I am confident in my ability to be a very difficult lynch.

Same, or at least similar. I am

sort of

confident in my ability to play the exact same regardless of my alignment.

[Dasquian]

Dasquin and Yanqush:

Your proposed skills seem to be more towards surviving rather than winning. And don't give me the "if your alive at the end, you've obviously won" argument. Being an expert at survival will only delay your loss via cop claim, or end-game kill.

Oh, I agree that surviving != winning, and I get as annoyed as the next guy for people who save their own skin at the expense of their team.

What I meant though is that, as a townie, it's useful to have the mad skillz to avoid getting lynched, while appearing to be lynchable enough not to be worth killing. Obviously, if you have a very useless role then you might want to selflessly play as bait and hope to get night-killed, but that's a dangerous game in its own right If you can walk that tight-rope though, perhaps the mafia will plan to get you lynched in the end-game and find that you were very much the wrong person to keep alive.

As mafia the "if you survive to the end you've won" ideal is a lot closer to the truth - obviously you're not as much at risk of being night-killed, but if you can avoid getting lynched without looking conspicuous for still being alive, then almost by definition you've won And in games with multiple mafia, the same arguments as above apply about not looking like an attractive kill-choice.

[Cadmium]

As scum (and keep in mind, I've only actually played as scum maybe once or twice in the past year ), I tend to dissociate myself from the family as much as possible. I let them make decisions on who to kill, etc. Then I treat day as though I was just my usually sparkling innocent self. I pick out scum, generally without regard for the fact that I actually know who the scum are. Or, more often, someone attacks me and I defend myself and counter attack (it's easy to get away with an innocent lynch if they attacked you first). I am confident in my ability to be a very difficult lynch.

Same, or at least similar. I am

sort of

confident in my ability to play the exact same regardless of my alignment.

That's just one way of playing scum. You don't have to play the exact same all the time. I can't say I always play the same in games, regardless my affiliation. It is easier to detect a difference in someone's play if they tend to play the same all the time. When playing differently more often, a slight slip has more chance of staying undiscovered.

[cuban smoker]

I'm a fan of Dasquian's view. I think that is the most important skill for a person who wants to have fun while playing. It's no fun being dead. However, I will sacrifice myself for the good of my alignment. It's when that happens that other skills come into play.

[shadyforce]

Well, I disagree. If I had the choice of being suspicious, but not enough to be lynched, and being very innocent to the town as a whole, then it's clear what I'll choose.

As a town player, this has many benifits:
* Being almost confirmed innocent increases the odds of the town for succesfully lynching mafia with strictly random lynches.
* Having someone seen as innocent to the town analyse the day's play means the town has someone they can trust (more than others anyway.) It leads to more accurate analysis and hopefully more succesful scum-finding.
* Most importantly: If you are sort of guilty, then that is only a help to your own selfish goal of survival, and NOT to the overall town goal. The mafia may not kill you, but they will kill someone, especially one appearing more innocent, or someone with a claimed role. If you appear suspicious, then the mafia are almost forced into killing you protecting the other members of the town. The only way this may not be optimal is if you are sitting on a doc role, but I put it to you that making yourself more guilty as doc is a very iffy way to play, and I wouldn't certainly not encourage it.

Conclusion: If you are town, make yourself appear as innocent as you can.

As a mafia player:
* The more innocent you are, the more you're a potential target for night kill. Ergo, the more likely you are to be doc protected. If mafia players are being doc-protected, then that is a huge plus for the mafia.
* Also, the more innocent, the more likely you are to avoid being investigated. Cops tend to investigate the suspicious players more than the innocent ones.
* As mafia, the only way you can die (assuming no SK - that complicates matters) is via lynch, so obviously you should play the way that maximises your potential for getting killed (which happens to be impossible, except with SK) and minimise the potential for lynch.
* The only possible counter-argument is that if you keep surviving the night despite being seemingly innocent, that makes you more guilty, is simply saying don't appear innocent, because eventually it will make you appear guilty, so instead, just appeear guilty from the start.

Conclusion: If you are mafia, make yourself appear as innocent as you

Overall conclusion: In my ever-so-humble opinion, Dasquin is wrong. But that's just me.

[Mr_Gnome_It_All]

Well, whatever skills are required for mafia, I bet I don't have them.

[Phoebus]

*empathises*

Interesting read, nonetheless.

[Dasquian]

Good points shady

I guess I missed out an important point that I really shouldn't have - I'm assuming that in the end-game, you have some method to demonstrate your innocence to the town which you've kept under wraps.

So for example if you're a mason, you and your buddy should play like I describe, and hope to be around, unclaimed, in a three-person end-game. Yes, you could put your hands up and instantly be a confirmed-innocent, but that's actually doing the town a disservice. Even if you're a vanilla townie, if you did something you think validates you earlier in the game that has been overlooked, you shouldn't draw attention to it til later. If the mafia missed it too, maybe they thought they'd be able to get you lynched in the end-game and then you go ah-HA, why would I have done this?

So I think our ideas go hand in hand, but are important at different stages in the game. A confirmed innocent is a wonderful asset to the game but the earlier they appear, the more easily they can be picked off leaving the town with a difficult choice at the end. If those confirmeds-in-potentia wait til later to prove themselves, and make sure they stay alive in the mean time, then the mafia will probably kill a fair few people they actually had a better hope of getting lynched.

[shadyforce]

A confirmed innocent is a wonderful asset to the game but the earlier they appear, the more easily they can be picked off leaving the town with a difficult choice at the end.

No more difficult than the choice they have if the confirmed innocent isn't picked off! Consider the following example:

Player - suspicion level

Player 1 - High
Player 2 - Medium
Player 3 - ?????

Now imagine if Player 3 had a way to show he is fairly innocent. If he chooses to show it, then you'll have a day with {H + M + L}, then Mr. Low Suspicion will get killed and you are left {H + M}.

What if, instead he chooses to make himself more suspicious. Then we'll have a day with {H + H + M} (not so good) and then Mr. Medium Suspicion will die, leaving the town in a situation with {H + H} (not good at all).

It's clear that you surviving in no way helps the town. Someone has to die, and if you are least suspicious then it'll be you. It's not like the mafia want to kill confirmed innocent people, they HAVE to kill them. You are taking the choice out of their hands. If the mafia have to kill more suspicious people, then that is GOOD for them, as it is akin to being spoilt for choice, and not akin to being restricted for choice as you seem to imply.

I am fairly convinced that it is

never

a good play to deliberately make yourself more suspicious, unless the only person you care about is yourself.

[Dasquian]

No, you misunderstand. What I'm saying is, we have this situation:

Player - suspicion level

Player 1 - High (is townie)
Player 2 - Medium (is mafia)
Player 3 - Low (is townie)
Player 4 - High (is mason)
Player 5 - High (is mason)

Penultimate day - town lynch player 1. Overnight, the mafia makes the most obvious choice and kills low-suspicion player 3, hoping to get one of players 4 or 5 lynched. Then the town wins.

That's a bit of an extreme and unusual example, but my point is that if you are able to turn around your suspicion to become undeniably low-suspicion when needed (say, if you're the remaining mason in a game which has only seen one mason dead), staying suspicious is a good move because you'll be that all-important Mr Low Suspicion in the end-game.

If everyone who could dispel suspicion did so as soon as possible, the mafia can pick and choose who gets to survive to end-game. You get one day to have fun being trusted by the town, before getting picked off.

[cuban smoker]

I think as a possible compromise... that important roles should attempt to walk the fine line that Dasquian has outlined, while townies should try and look as innnocent as possible.

There's another reason I support the argument for light-suspiscion, and that is the proliferation of discussion. If everyone acts innocent... there is nothing to work with. Invariably, someone will seem more suspiscious. You want to be the person in the middle. Not enough to get lynched, not too little to get smoked at night, and just enough to get people talking about you, and

about the people talking about you

, which is even more important.

[discer]

What about the ability to scan and make sense out of the thread while drunk and post without making an ass or yourself drawing unwanted suspicion?

Obviously not the most important skill to posess but a valuable one non-the-less.

[discer]

or=of

[shadyforce]

Edit button?

[PolarBoy]

The ability to resist the impulse to use the edit button is also important, even if the original post was the result of drunkeness.

[discer]

The edit button doesn't even occur to me unless I'm modding a game and need to update. Using it just seems wrong.

[rapidcanyon]

Most important skill - convincing the others that you are town. Not getting night-killed is not as important as establishing yourself as the most pro-town player in the game. I am new to this site and have played mafia elsewhere where dead townies could actually replace back into the game if they were lynched or night-killed. Obviously, you don't want to be lynched since you are hurting your team, but if you are night-killed, you just replace back in and catch more scum OR you could actually be replaced into the scumteam. Not possible on mafiascum but I still think that walking a fine line between not getting lynched and lynchable is a terrible idea. You don't want to be fighting for your life each game. You want to be the most pro-town player - one who leads the day phase and the one who gets their scumreads lynched, not the one who is about to get lynched each day but doesn't and votes the other potential lynch candidates out of self-preservation and see them get lynched and maybe flip town.

As far as persuasive ability, I can make good cases on lynching people and it worked great on debate.org where I played before but the meta on mafiascum is very different. People don't like seeing case walls and think of them as things to refute rather than analyze for their validity.

As scum, I hate games with too many townie power roles and getting investigated. It gives you no out and somewhat traps you.

[rapidcanyon]

Also, on mafiascum, persuasive ability plays little role and everyone is stubborn as hell. Just an observation.