Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[Kison]

(3) Scum + Fakeclaims + Daykill with added bonuses of making someone look bad...

VS

(2) Unconfirmeed Masons
(1) 1-shot Cylon Model Investigator
(1) Jailkeeper
(1) Roleblocker
(1) 2-per-day Cylon/Human Investigator
(3) Vanilla Townies

I dunno, I mean, I can't say this is overwhelmingly unbalanced. It's just, as I said, that

everything

wound up pulverizing scum in some way. The same could happen in just about any balanced game. If a game with a tracker, roleblocker, and doc wound up making the right moves each time, scum would be annihilated. I mean, let's imagine if Knight of Cydonia didn't use his investigation on MacavityLock... We'd likely have two scum after Rishi died, and the ability to use our kills despite Camn having me blocked.

[Patrick]

This one was great fun.

Double-heading with Incognito was awesome; I just knew we'd come to similar conclusions after reading the game <3. I read it first, then Incognito came online and was reading whilst sending me occasional messages. It was all like, "Yeah Elmo is obvobvtown", and "does Maclock feel weird to you as well?" and "OMG kill Tar and FL now plz" lol. I don't think we significantly disagreed on anything all game. We bounced around alot of theories as to how the game might be setup, especially when FL claimed pretty much exactly the same role we had. At one point we wondered if there were no traditional scum in the game, and that it might just contain 3 or 4 affliations, any of which could win simply by being the only ones left alive. I think we even wondered at some point whether

we

could be scum without knowing it: neither of us know much about the flavour, but we suddenly noticed Cylons are kind of aggressive towards humans at some point in the series. Prior to all that we'd barely read our own role PM and just assumed we were the standard vanilla townie.

Really interesting setup, though at this point I don't really dare to comment on balance. Big thanks to des for creating it and letting me and Incognito replace in this way, though I probably won't doublehead again; though it was fun, it seems like a significant advantage. Anyway, it was a pleasure playing with you all.

[Farkshinsoup]

I think that town should be congratulated for 2 actions (or non-actions) that happened after I died.

1- not automatically assuming that grimmy was scum for his daykill.
2- not automatically assuming that camn was scum for lying about her role. (I must admit, that on the sidelines, I was yelling, "Lynch All Liars - she's scum!")

[Patrick]

In this game we got used to overlooking tiny issues like that, lol.

[Incognito]

I think that town should be congratulated for 2 actions (or non-actions) that happened after I died.

1- not automatically assuming that grimmy was scum for his daykill.
2- not automatically assuming that camn was scum for lying about her role. (I must admit, that on the sidelines, I was yelling, "Lynch All Liars - she's scum!")

I'll add a third too:

3 - not lynching Elmo just because Kison claimed a dangerous on him.

I think that's one of the main things that I liked about this game: you can say what you want about the power roles doing their job and helping out a lot, but I think what this game really came down to was good, old-fashioned scum hunting and lynching people based on genuinely scummy behavior instead of just claims. I can think of a lot of towns that would be completely put off of lynching a claimed Jailkeeper but this town still went forward and lynched MacavityLock anyway. And even after Tarhalindur claimed Daytime Gunsmith, Patrick and I and it looks like Elmo too never once bought it and pretty much thought him/Kison were scum throughout, which was also cool.

I liked how mine and Patrick's first order of discussion upon replacing in was "Elmo's town right?". haha. It's like we

had

to figure out Elmo's alignment and then the rest would fall into place. <3 Patrick.

And see, camn! Patrick really WAS town! It wasn't a trick!

destructor, excellent modding as usual and amazing set-up. I'm always down for a des-mod game.

[MacavityLock]

(3) Scum + Fakeclaims + Daykill with added bonuses of making someone look bad...

Don't forget that I was a scum roleblocker, even though I didn't get to use it. All in all, a ton of blocking in this setup.

Other things I thought during the game: I thought that Roslin was guaranteed to be in this setup. I also thought there was a good chance Doc Cottle would be too. I was pretty sure that neither Adama would be. Before D1 started when we were discussing eventual claims, I brought up Centurion as a potential vanilla claim. Boy, am I glad that got shot down. My "info" on D'Anna was clearly BS, but I was hoping that the more flavor I could throw in, the better for a subsequent claim.

Both heads of Flask ripped me to shreds. Good job, guys :}

[camn]

Obviously, claiming an Invesigative role drew my attention.. And thus drew the consistent block. Bad luck that the Doc was a Jailkeeper!!

I was really interested in this. At first I thought you were jailkeeping him because you thought he was scum. Why did you protect him when you knew you'd be blocking him too?

The first night.. I figured that the scum would just try to kill him, and he was investigating ME, who's innocence I obviously was convinced of, so I figured I would save him, hopefully the scum would figure out that I was protecting him, and then I could phantom-protect him.


HOWEVER.. when he came back with a VERDICT... I pretty much thought he was either scum, or we had a sweet loophole with the day-choice...
So my day 2 block was 1/2 for block, 1/2 for protection. By day 4, I was about 80-20 him being scum...but obviously after a while it really was obvious.

Basically, it was working.. so I figured why mess around. Either he was scum and I was blocking him.. or he was town and we were getting results.

[Kison]

FTR I only posted in the quicktopic one time, and that was demanding a cookie if I won. Therefore I don't think it's really my call whether or not it gets posted. That is, if anyone cares.

[Kison]

Also, thanks for the game, Destructor. I had fun even though I was pulverized. I should also mention that the town

did

play very well. Collectively you all had your heads screwed on tightly.

[Tarhalindur]

Now that this game is over, some of the key problems:

1) Scum team wasn't all that good. I'm not particularly good at playing scum (too suicidal, among other things), though I'm a fairly good organizer. The problem was that the rest of my team was worse (Macavity was a raw newb, Rishi is far too lurky for my tastes regardless of alignment). Even worse, I was short on access, so I couldn't play my best game. This wasn't helped by a town team comparable to Mini 594 (once Incog/Patrick replaced in). Speaking of that...

2) Having Incog/Patrick replace in for Timeater ROYALLY screwed me over. Timeater was utterly, utterly lynchable and was my preferred mislynch for Day 1; there was no way I could get any traction for a mislynch after that replacement. This was compounded by my (eventually ineffectual) attempt to get Elmo mislynched Day 1 (my experiences with him were colored by Mini 594, where IMO he played HORRIBLY as scum) when I thought I couldn't get Timeater lynched in time for deadline. Speaking of that...

3) Extending the deadline also hurt us badly (we might have been able to get a mislynch - especially an Elmo lynch - if the Day 1 deadline had been fixed).

4) I showed my supertell: avoiding the Mafia Roleblocker (seriously, I need to bus roleblockers more often). This helped put a few of the strong players onto the right track regarding me.

5) The last and biggest problem was that my claim (which I was planning from the beginning) was NEVER intended to be a long-term survival mechanism. The original plan was a fairly simple suicide run: get Timeater lynched D1, Mafia kill N1, claim dangerous on Camn D2 (hopefully getting her lynched), Mafia kill N2, use daykill immediately D3 (I didn't know it would end day...), accept my own lynch D3, remaining Mafiosos use daykill to get the final mislynch D4. I had to modify the goal after the Macavity lynch (this time it would rely on getting Rishi to endgame), but the plan was the same. The ultimate thing that blew that Mafia out? Fark's roleblock N1.

That said, I see about two things I'm not happy with in the design:
1) Sleeper agent has a strong enough role that it is plausible that the town will not lynch that player even if they don't catch on. I'd have given the Masons more reason to doubt their partner's townieness, myself. (Also would have helped had a less obviously town player... say, camn... been the kill target.)
2) Mafia had NO WAY of knowing the structure of the town role PM (specifically the "planet origin affiliated with the Colonial Fleet" part in Colonial PMs), and there were no failsafes to prevent town from taking advantage of that (note: I WOULD have either strictly warned or modkilled Elmo for Jackassery for his "you're missing something" questions in my own games - see Kinetic in Babylon 5 during late Day 1 for precedent). This game badly needed some way to counter that for a more believable claim (using the phrasing in the safeclaim message, posting a Colonial character as the vanilla PM in the opening post, a full Falseclaim ability, a rule outlawing asking about role PM phrasing, etc.). That's the other reason why I replaced out of this game - because I was pissed that Elmo's D1 questions were legal and the Mafia had no way of knowing what he was asking for. In fact, I only stayed as long as I did so I could tell my replacement what I was planning and make the result claim.

[Elmo]

2) Having Incog/Patrick replace in for Timeater ROYALLY screwed me over. Timeater was utterly, utterly lynchable and was my preferred mislynch for Day 1; there was no way I could get any traction for a mislynch after that replacement.

Yup. I still think this post is my favourite of the entire game.

This was compounded by my (eventually ineffectual) attempt to get Elmo mislynched Day 1 (my experiences with him were colored by Mini 594, where IMO he played HORRIBLY as scum)

Was that day 1, or the whole thing? I was pretty certain you'd try to push too hard on me because of your views on me Like I said there, I was pretty badly ill for all of day 1, I could barely post at all. I'd be curious to hear your views on my play there, you never said anything at the time.

3) Extending the deadline also hurt us badly (we might have been able to get a mislynch - especially an Elmo lynch - if the Day 1 deadline had been fixed).

I was - to a small extent - gambling on Tim being replaced, which would require a deadline extension. I felt it was worth the risk, though, especially if Tim's replacement was competant. Turns out, it succeded beyond my wildest dreams x)

1) Sleeper agent has a strong enough role that it is plausible that the town will not lynch that player even if they don't catch on. I'd have given the Masons more reason to doubt their partner's townieness, myself.

Eh, I think the masons are given a fair amount of doubt, you can see the reaction from a bunch of people (KoC, FL, etc) post-kill.. the main reason I believed Grimmy was a) because there was thematic justification for roughly what happened and b) Anderson said Grimmy really thought Fark was scum. That, and Grimmy genuinely suggested that he be speedlynched if it happened again. People vary a lot on how strong they think unconfirmed masons are, anyway; some people see them as basically equal to townies.

2) Mafia had NO WAY of knowing the structure of the town role PM (specifically the "planet origin affiliated with the Colonial Fleet" part in Colonial PMs), and there were no failsafes to prevent town from taking advantage of that (note: I WOULD have either strictly warned or modkilled Elmo for Jackassery for his "you're missing something" questions in my own games - see Kinetic in Babylon 5 during late Day 1 for precedent).

I wasn't asking about that. I was asking, like I said later, about your affiliation and win condition, both of which every player has. Using the "planet origin" thing never occured to me. And I would not abuse it if I did think of it, anyway, I'm against that kind of thing; I was asking for things I believed (and believe) you should have been able to fake as scum.

That's the other reason why I replaced out of this game - because I was pissed that Elmo's D1 questions were legal and the Mafia had no way of knowing what he was asking for. In fact, I only stayed as long as I did so I could tell my replacement what I was planning and make the result claim.

Yeah, I suspected that. I suppose I picked up on the fact you

thought

there was something you couldn't fake, though, but I was pretty much convinced you were scum already, so, eh. I actually thought there was a rule against using the wording of role PMs to confirm people, that's why I was worried about modkills at the end, there.

[destructor]

Thanks again guys. I had fun putting the setup together and watching it play out. I'm glad the fun went through to the players too. =)

3) Extending the deadline also hurt us badly (we might have been able to get a mislynch - especially an Elmo lynch - if the Day 1 deadline had been fixed).

Yep, this occurred to me as the game went on. I really like the idea of truly fixed deadlines with NO extensions whatsoever now. The extensions in Day 1 gave the town extra chances and was punishing for scum, probably something that neither really deserved.

That said, I see about two things I'm not happy with in the design:
1) Sleeper agent has a strong enough role that it is plausible that the town will not lynch that player even if they don't catch on. I'd have given the Masons more reason to doubt their partner's townieness, myself. (Also would have helped had a less obviously town player... say, camn... been the kill target.)
2) Mafia had NO WAY of knowing the structure of the town role PM (specifically the "planet origin affiliated with the Colonial Fleet" part in Colonial PMs), and there were no failsafes to prevent town from taking advantage of that (note: I WOULD have either strictly warned or modkilled Elmo for Jackassery for his "you're missing something" questions in my own games - see Kinetic in Babylon 5 during late Day 1 for precedent). This game badly needed some way to counter that for a more believable claim (using the phrasing in the safeclaim message, posting a Colonial character as the vanilla PM in the opening post, a full Falseclaim ability, a rule outlawing asking about role PM phrasing, etc.). That's the other reason why I replaced out of this game - because I was pissed that Elmo's D1 questions were legal and the Mafia had no way of knowing what he was asking for. In fact, I only stayed as long as I did so I could tell my replacement what I was planning and make the result claim.

1. I think making the masons unconfirmed, making Sharon Agathon the sleeper agent and including a Number 8 fake-claim were enough to brew a healthy dose of scepticism about the daykill. It was always going to be difficult to predict how and when the daykill would be used, but I think it was a pretty effective tool for the scumteam. I found the town's reaction to Grimmy killing Fark hilarious. There was so much confusion. It was great. =D

2. I think that's a fair criticism. I debated over whether or not I should include a "vanilla" pm in the opening post, but thought doing so would give the multiple affiliations away. The innocents' win condition was provided to scum and their flavour was alluded to as well (the Cylons wanted unity with humans, none of the innocents could remember how they got here). I absolutely agree that I should have included the race and affiliations with the fake-claims. Something like Kara Thrace, a Caprican of the Colonial Fleet, Number 8, a Cylon of the Clyon and Natalie, a Cylon of the Cylons.

Part of me included minimal fake claim info on purpose. I felt like it would be further incentive to play vigilantly and avoid having to claim. As townies were lynched, the scum would be given more and more info about the sorts of town roles the game had. That was a bit ambitious, though.

But yeah, Tar, I can sympathise with your frustration and I'm sorry for that. Thanks for coming back and leaving me some feedback!

destructor, excellent modding as usual and amazing set-up. I'm always down for a des-mod game.

Thanks! I'm not sure if/when I'll be modding another game. I have a few ideas floating around, including some sort of sequel to this game, that I might put together eventually. But the plan for the moment is to take a bit of a break from ms once my current games are over.

=(

And see, camn! Patrick really WAS town! It wasn't a trick!

Oh yeah, that was laugh out loud funny! I found the whole idea so insane. It was awesome.

c) this is the real kicker.. I get the read that Incog is town, and Patrick is scum. Then my head explodes. Then it just occurred to me.. what if Patrick IS scum, and lied to Incog about their role? Then my head explodes.

LOL

2) Having Incog/Patrick replace in for Timeater ROYALLY screwed me over. Timeater was utterly, utterly lynchable and was my preferred mislynch for Day 1; there was no way I could get any traction for a mislynch after that replacement.

Yup. I still think this post is my favourite of the entire game.

I had a giggle over that too. haha

[camn]

I have a few ideas floating around, including some sort of sequel to this game, that I might put together eventually.

/in!

I'll try not lying next time!

[Kison]

What if you're scum?

[camn]

if I claimed scum, would anyone believe me?

[Rishi]

This game wasn't bad for town, but I am not sure why anyone would think that you guys deserve a scummy. MacavityLock didn't do himself any favors on Day 1 and I didn't play much better on Day 2. I chalk it up to the fact that I have played very very few games as scum, so I was unsure how to defend myself once the pressure started mounting. Also, claiming human was definitely a mistake for me - I was trying to avoid attention and I didn't realize there would be so many pro-town Cylon players.

One thing, though. I really think it was uncool for Tar to replace out. It seems to me that he didn't ask to replace out because he didn't have time to play, but because he felt like he could no longer win. Even if the odds are stacked against you, I think you have an obligation to fight it out. Fortunately, I think Kison did a stellar job as his replacement, and if anyone deserves a scummy out of this game, I think it's him for Best Performance in a Losing Cause.

I'm also not sure how I feel about having a two-headed account as a "player" in the game. I think one of my biggest weaknesses as a Mafia player is the fact that I lurk too much - not because it's my playstyle, but because I am very busy in real life (which is why I generally only play 2-3 games at a time). Having someone else help me out with posting would tremendously shore up that weakness. Also, I was unclear on whether Patrick and Incognito were allowed to discuss this game outside of the thread. If so, it's like adding an extra team member to whatever slot the player gets added to. Nothing personal against either of those guys - but as a mod, I personally wouldn't have let a two-headed account into the game. I respect destructor's decision (which is why I didn't complain during the game), but I really think it screwed us over replacing someone who was about to get lynched with what amounted to a super-player.

[Patrick]

We were allowed to talk outside the thread, as is the norm for double heads. To be honest I agree with you that it's a big advantage, which is why I probably won't do it again unless it's a game where every role in the game is double heading. I sincerely doubt you'd have got a mislynch even if it was only one of us replacing in though.

Your disappointment at the replacement seeped into one or two of your posts, unfortunately.

[Rishi]

I sincerely doubt you'd have got a mislynch even if it was only one of us replacing in though.

Fair enough. Point taken.

Your disappointment at the replacement seeped into one or two of your posts, unfortunately.

Really? I thought I was careful about it and I looked over my posts and can't find what you're talking about. I believe you if you picked up on it, but maybe you can point it out to me? If I'm unintentionally dropping scumtells, then I think I need to know about them.

[Patrick]

It was more of a gut feeling really, though thinking about it, I'd say it came mostly from this:

You guys are allowed to discuss this game outside of the thread and you still came down on the side of being mysterious and evasive (at least at first)? Lovely. By the way, in response to FoP’s later question, the original post was evasive. FoP did come forward on their own, but it still looked like they were waiting to see how things would shake out before coming forward.

You didn't specifically say anywhere that you were unhappy with the replacement, but just sounded rather peeved here, especially about the fact that we were allowed to talk outside the thread.

[Incognito]

Actually, Patrick, I think it was this one that did it for me (bolded orange in particular):

Elmo can continue to do his happy dance, but I like the FoP wagon better than the KE wagon. I've never really been that suspicious of KE and I think people are jumping on him because he's a fairly easy target - being busy in real life has made it look like he's lurking.

As for FoP, what better way to avert suspicion and distance yourself from the predecessor than working hard in the game? (And it's much easier for two people to look active than one.)

Anyway, I am just saying that we shouldn't give FoP a free pass at this point. I don't think FoP is a good lynch for today, by any means.

Also the comment about Elmo's happy dance just had a really "frustrated about everything not going as planned" vibe to me.

Cheers, Rishi.

[Rishi]

Thanks for pointing out those quotes, guys. I was very frustrated with this game and it showed up more than I wanted it to. Oh well. Every game is still a learning experience.

[camn]

You were just sad that we were on opposite teams AGAIN.

We have never been on the same side, I think!

[Rishi]

You were just sad that we were on opposite teams AGAIN.

We have never been on the same side, I think!

That is sad.

Maybe some day...

[MeMe]

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