Newbie 682 - Mayhem in Umore - Game Over, Scum Win!

[seb456zig]

PAGE FOUR

[nureins]

@serous

All THIS happened in your absence and you do not try even to analyze it ?
do you have some opinion on the game ?

@seb

Nureins, I cant help but feel that u both OMGUSed me and WAGONed me as well.

I built a reasoned case on you and then voted you. No OMGUS.
It was the second vote on you, and as you can see in my case, you have been the scummiest, so 2 votes is not a lot. No mass-quick-wagon but hunting-wagon.

I don't think you are mafia but i don't want to change my vote again, its just gonna get me to L-1, or worse.

voting someone you think is town is not gonna help the town.

Anyway I wanna know why you don't want me to suicide but to just be lynched. I really don't wanna die by lynch, because that would mean i had no say in the matter.

If we arrive to lynch you, it is better to lynch you in a regular way that with you suiciding (autovoting or whichever form you might think of). If you are mafia or town, in any case we can learn a lot about who tried to push your lynch, how they did, how serious they were in the lynch, etc.

-----------

Right now, Ill stop my pressure on you to see how other people puts pressure on you if they think you are scum, but my vote is by now on you clearly...

If you are townie, re-read my case on you, think why you have been pressured, think how a townie should act, and proceed to act like one, because if you are townie, you are not helping us a lot.

[seb456zig]

DAMN IT!
if i get one more ill be open for hammers, and im gone
I want people to know that the second last vote will kill me.
I would like you all to reconsider, especially the ones thinking of voting me.
Please, at least reread my comments and think of me as a townie, see how i feel!

hmm.
nureins has a good point.
um...

Unvote: NUR

and ill hold my vote.
at least till i see a

REAL

reason to kill someone.
I would like to say a big thx to nureins for helping open up my eyes.
Guess im your lab rat. I feel less suicidal
my mind is clear.

Unfos: Mirth

I know it wont do anything buut i dont wanna die an angry person, coz den i cant apologize.

[seb456zig]

If you are townie, re-read my case on you, think why you have been pressured, think how a townie should act, and proceed to act like one, because if you are townie, you are not helping us a lot.

Saying that makes me think that deep down you know I'm a townie but you wanna play it safe. Me being the most scummish here, i guess i deserve that.
I would like to say that if I die, I forgive everyone that voted for me.
The evidence was there. It was all there. Doesn't matter how, but it is.
It's not your fault. Townies are destined to die on their first night anyway. This kinda sucks being my first game. oh well. This is a semi-goodbye just in case I really do die.

[seb456zig]

Townies are destined to die on their first night anyway.

*day

[Mirth]

Wow. I sleep for 6 hours and there's a whole page...

Responses as I read through it:

I am in no way telling you to unvote me. The only reason I claim town is to try and help town not waste a lynch. But it does seem kinda stupid now. If you want i wont wagon people but what else can i do. If I don't wagon, then my vote is random. What is better; Wagoning, or Random voting, because i think I'm more likely to kill mafia by wagon then by random. 2:7 odds aren't high and I don't want to kill innocents.

This is a false dichotomy. As I have said before, wagoning takes time. You don't decide on page 1 you want someone dead, you ask questions and talk. that is no blind wagoning, but wagoning after you have had time to play and make a case.

Nur, 55: this is very good posting. One thing though, and this is mostly personal preference: I don't like it when an early wagon gets more than 3 votes or reaches L-1 rapidly. Makes me also suspect the wagoners. as there is always enough time to vote later, especially if there's continued hole-digging.

hmm. I see your point entirly and i see where i went wrong.
me saying the wrong thing has in fact led me to believe i dont have long to live my game life. I would just like a simple apology as soon as i die by lynching. I dont mind death but i didnt want to die this early. I can still learn by looking from other people so yea. have fun.

If i dont die i'll be as suprised as you are when u see im innocent. i am the VI and i know it.
oh well, how many people actualy survive during their first game anyway.
Good bye, cruel world.
*Gives nur the finger*

First of all, that last bit is really immature. Second, you are continuing with exactly what Nur and I have both called you on: the newbie card. You are also continuing with the appeal to emotions and not making any effort to correct your acknowledged mistake.

Mod: can i suicide just so that i dont waste a lynch

This is the most antitown thing a townie can do. If you are town, there is absolutely no reason to suicide since there is no information from the lynching wagon, and it's not guaranteed you will be lynched. I also don't suggest it for scum, as it's unfair to the scum partner. This reaks of "you suspect me so I'm going to whine and be melodramatic about it." and is still not playing.

seb, 61: and a suicide *is* a waste of a town turn and puts us in a bad numeric position.
ARGH.

Mr A, 64: I don't like this post. It seems like its just skimming the surface. Care to give us a bit more of your reasoning? guilty of what? why?

Nur, 65: the last bit of this sounds like coaching for Dej...I don't like it.

Dej, 66: actually, I am choosing to take offense to this. Since you obviously have not been reading my posts very carefully. I don't care if people vote me. BUT I do care a lot what the reason behind a vote is poorly constructed and boils down to nonsense. I have already, multiple times, pointed this out. As to your other answers, you say you didn't vote me to go with the crowd, but do you think Nur's "case" on me was substantial for a lynch?

Well would you suicide yourself just to give us one extra kill, which would most likely be another townie. I think that with L-2 i wont go to extremes but if i end up with L-1 it might just be an option.
Theres seven of us and two of them, getting it to six is bad for us percentage wise but it will prove my point. I dunno.
And if it only took two people to influence your vote and theres two mafia..., just putting two and two together (no pun intended) but yea. I dont mind dieing but i dont wanna die for the wrong reasons.

You know, most mods end the day on a suicide/modkill as well as a lynch. This is poor reasoning. But just to be clear:

Mod: can you share with us your policy on modkillings? Also can we get a vote count?

I seem to recall hearing we don't have to vote. Is that true, because I think I'll skip it this time around.

If that is true, i cooduve avoided evrything. Its too late now, btw where dija hear that?

He read the rules on site, obviously. I highly recommend it.

Nur 69: while self-voting is bad, in this case I'm not 100% sure he's aware of just how bad.

Nur 70: you need to meta me? Please tell me you're not one of those heavily-relying on meta people? sigh...I think from now on it will be my crusade to make newbies pay attention to current games and not meta.

Only scummies and very very noob ones ask for no-lynch in first round...
Im yet trying to decide what you are, but the fact that you ask for a no-lynch when seb456 is showing his scumness so openly is very suspicious to me...


Mantain my vote and my Fos. But want to hear the lurkers a bit before conforming a serious idea...

This part bothers me. First, he said not voting, not non lynching. Voting upon joining the game is optional. see my exchange with Caf. Keeping a vote on someone the whole time is also optional which is obviously what he's referring to, since he didn't vote someone after unvoting me. So here you're putting words into his mouth.

I also don't like your use of the word lurkers. Game has barely begun. Yes, there's a large backlog, but that doesn't mean people who haven't posted yet are lurking. And I think that people on this site rely too heavily on using lurking as a scumtell instead of actually looking for real ones.

Thats why i reconsidered it. I mean if lynching is our only weapon, (accept for Cops and Docs) why should we waste it on a person that doesn't completely understand the concept of the game.
My current aim or goal is to get the suspicion off of me, then I'll try my hardest to remove the mafia.
Why don't you see suicide as a good option for me.

This is false. Our other weapons and voting and talking. And please, don't mention power roles. Any and all power role speculation is BAD.

I leave for a while and this happens

well, now that you're hear, care to make a post that has actual content?

I read through that, and understand how i went wrong.
Nureins, I cant help but feel that u both OMGUSed me and WAGONed me as well.
I mean if I was mafia it would make complete sense, but seeing as I'm not (and only THREE people know that btw) I cant see the point in pointing at me.
I don't think you are mafia but i don't want to change my vote again, its just gonna get me to L-1, or worse.
Anyway I wanna know why you don't want me to suicide but to just be lynched. I really don't wanna die by lynch, because that would mean i had no say in the matter.
It's pretty obvious that if I don't do anything, I'm gonna die.

More appeals to emotion, claiming of townines, misrepresenting Nur's position, asking to die. SIGH.

seb 75: please refrain from making spam posts like this in the future. It is annoying.

Nur, 76: while I agree with the content of this post whole-heartedly, the closing remarks feel very very off. Maybe you're like Muerrto and give absolute newbies too much leeway with the coaching I also see here. Also never step off an attack if you think it is worth attacking.

seb 77: another useless post that comes off as more appealing to emotion and no scumhunting and I don't get the feeling he actually understands Nur.

seb 78: instead of going on and on about how you're going to die, maybe you could start playing? Because opinions do change, you know. And please don't refer to other people as town. I have already commented on this to Chuck. Sharing town reads is usually bad.

[seb456zig]

SEB L-2
Serous L-4

thats what i got for the votes i counted.

[Mirth]

I'm going to double check that.

No response to any of my comments?

[nureins]

Nur 70: you need to meta me? Please tell me you're not one of those heavily-relying on meta people? sigh...I think from now on it will be my crusade to make newbies pay attention to current games and not meta.

Some people is more deffensive than others. They feel attacked and react before others. To disentangle if somebody is scum or not, this can help. This does not mean Im a fan of meta. Surely it takes too much time and dunno if so profitable. I already said that since I dont suspect you by the moment, I skip the "deffensive issue". In any case, it was not relevant.

This part bothers me. First, he said not voting, not non lynching. Voting upon joining the game is optional. see my exchange with Caf. Keeping a vote on someone the whole time is also optional which is obviously what he's referring to, since he didn't vote someone after unvoting me. So here you're putting words into his mouth.

Um, you are probably right. Surely is a misunderstanding on my side due to so much "im gonna suicide suicide suicide kill kill kill etc etc etc" by seb. So when I read this part from dej and how seb used it for a stupid defence I probably misinterpreted...

I also don't like your use of the word lurkers. Game has barely begun. Yes, there's a large backlog, but that doesn't mean people who haven't posted yet are lurking. And I think that people on this site rely too heavily on using lurking as a scumtell instead of actually looking for real ones.

As you clearly see, I built a case on someone, have some minor reads on another one, and while other people debate the possible scumminess of seb, I pointed out to these persons not posting. I want to see if they are scum-lurkers, passive-townies-lurkers or they are simply not posting for whichever reason. Lurker does not necessarily mean scum in my mind. Dunno which is the exact definition of this term and indeed, you can skip a theory debate if you want to instruct me how to use the term. For me, it means just no-info no-post very irregular players...I want to explore everyone before starting to think more seriously about people...

Nur, 76: while I agree with the content of this post whole-heartedly, the closing remarks feel very very off. Maybe you're like Muerrto and give absolute newbies too much leeway with the coaching I also see here. Also never step off an attack if you think it is worth attacking.

I dont know Muerrto, so I cannot talk about this player. My only doubt right now has to do with a detail in seb's profile that makes him substantially different to me and provokes me doubts about how much of the game this guy can understand. So my opinion on seb is clear. And I prefer to observe a bit from the distance and probably, transmit my last "hey noob, react" message. You also told several times "react, play, blabla". This is perfectly compatible with having a serious case on him, that I mantain fully.

[Mirth]

Unofficial vote count, with vote order and all.

serous 1 (cute)
seb 3 (mirth, nur, mr. a)


Nur, I object to you using the term lurkers in the first place. Game opened Weds. It is not less than 48 hours from that, which is less than what is needed for a prod. I think most people just dont have as much time as we seem to. The pace of this game so far is not normal.

and I'm going to go now. when I get back in 4 or 5 hours, I'm sure there'll be another 2 pages to read. SIGH

[seb456zig]

attacking each other?
weren't you to both in a semi-alliance against me, taking snaps based on nothing is pointless, now i believe that you both are innocent and fighting will only trim our numbers. We should look for the people that listen in w/e actually posting. It seems that only three people are on, and I find that very hard to believe.

Now theres two, seems i take too long to type stuff

[nureins]

Nur, I object to you using the term lurkers in the first place

Come on, I didnt use it to attack anyone in particular. My case is firmly done up to now. Now read post 85 by seb and let him enjoy his sweet and discovering he can sniff around...lets see what he does once he has been fed. This cannot hurt the town for sure...While so, Ill take a look around too.

[seb456zig]

i would like everyone to leave me and let me get hammered, then I'll have helped.
Anyone that casts the lynch vote should be suspected.
Anyway goodnight. I'm gonna sleep. Im tired as.
Have a nice day/night
Ill look for stuff u probs already know or that is just wrong tomorrow.
um... or today.
this is so confusing.
um...
have...fun...?

[ChuckNorris]

Holy crap alot of posting. I again appologise for the inconvenince of me being at school. Anyway from a quick skim read, I see the Seb seems to be playing the reverse psycology card? Maybe? Not sure as i haven't read properly yet. Will do now but don't expect a response for a while while I post my thougths...

[massive]

The town square suddenly sputters with activity and accusations fly back and forth!

Vote Count

seb456zig (3) » nureins, Mr Avacado, Mirth
Serous (1) » cute.without.e

Not voting: Serous, seb456zig, dejkha, ChuckNorris, caf19

As for the question of suicides, my recommendation is this: First, remember that it's only a game, and second, remember that you are playing newbie games to learn about how to play the game (and how the game is played) on this site. There is a LOT to learn, and if you go away from this game without learning anything, you will be doomed to repeat the mistakes of your "failures" in future games. So I say: Hang in there. Try and take away something.

/cause I'm anti-suicide

[Mirth]

/cause I'm anti-suicide

While I generally agree with you, I still think Kuribo should have won for getting out of there before going crazy.

Nur, you still are missing my point. Someone can't be lurking if there has not been a long enough window of oppurtunity to occur. If you asked "lurkers" to post 10 days after game start, it would make sense. Not exactly 2.

Seb, why do you keep proclaiming my and Nur's townishness? Setting up a nightkill?

And I ally with basically no one. Think of this like the X-files, trust no one.

Also I don't like your "just lynch my already" post. You're not even trying. Please actually try to play and let us decide from your actions if thats a good idea or not.

[nureins]

Nur, you still are missing my point. Someone can't be lurking if there has not been a long enough window of oppurtunity to occur. If you asked "lurkers" to post 10 days after game start, it would make sense. Not exactly 2.

I didnt miss your point. I understand your point. I agree with your point. At the same time, I also want to give space to other people to discuss about seb. It is not good if only one or two persons handle a wagon, as there could be people hidden around. So Ill be taking a look to other players and to these people who are not posting yet to see what they do or what they are...simply that...

Given that seb has signalled us as the "home owners", Ill be receiving other guests that will come or have recently come to see who they are...the guests already in the living room or you if you want to shake him a bit more can entertain seb for sure...
(that is a metaphore, and you can skip it obviously...do not want a big debate about a joke/metaphore !!)

[Mirth]

I do not understand your metaphor.

[ChuckNorris]

Ok. I've read through and this Is what I think, and me answering any questions.

Post 39: I didn't mean it to sound on edge. I meant just to emphisise the Randomness of it as many vote's that have been cast have a reason. So I thought if I emphasised the word Random, then it would tell you that it was random. No real reason behind it.

41: Answer to Q
1) I put him on there because, yes he was probably being a newb, but I still thought it was a bit scummy to have no reason to vote. Since the list was actually a load of crap, I don't think it really matters. But I'll answer any more questions on it willingly.
2)Now I think about it, it was craplogic. So I take that comment back. I guess I was just trying to follow a lead. I t came to nothing so...yea. That's all for this question.
47:

lol, i shood realy pay attention.
i didnt even look at page 2
wow, i am noob.
soz, i think.
Unvote
and i guess we shood kill off nureins.
Vote: nureins

btw i think we shood give evry1 a chance.
"Innocent until proven otherwise"

I'm sorry but how can you not realise there are 2 pages? That's not important. The important part is that, why did you want to join the wagon and leave Mirth at L-1. I think this could be true, as this is his first game, that could be the only way he reckons he can be thought of as town.

MFoS:Seb

-for the reasons stated previously. Also now that I look at it seems even more scummy as Mirth says in post 48 "You can die so I don't" Attitude. I upgrade to an

FoS:Seb

I believe that it isn't entirely wagoning just because i agree with points people make. I try to gain trust, try to tell the truth and try to kill mafia, not confuse or mislead. There isn't much proof on anyone or anything and this being my first game I assume that the majority is smarter than me and with a small amount of people my vote really does count. I don't want to make the wrong decision. I hope you'll understand.

I'm sorry but you haven't done any of this in post 46 and 47. All you've done is try to blend with the crowd. No specific reason for it. I'm not going to upgrade to more yet.
Post-51

I don't see why you have to attack me. Someone that has no understanding on how people think, and on my first game. I said that I'm going with the crowd. What more do you want.
FOS: Mirth

Following a Crowd isn't neccissarily the best thing to do. For example in your case, you seem intent on "Keeping you head low" so to speak. Why do you need to do this? Why not just analyze everyone's thoughts and responses, then ask them questions about it? This just keeps getting scummier.

Still post 51...

You change your vote on a mistake. Thats not normal.
Judging people on not paying attention. Thats just... um, i dunno but its not right.

Ok. Why is it not right? If you aren't paying attention, what makes you any kind of help to the town?
STILL post 51...

I know we probably wont kill mafia day one but your pushing me to the lynch. That isn't helping. I'm a pro-town. Just stop. I don't have any specials. Just a normal townie that is getting attacked for a mistake forgetting to read a page isnt a crime, and you dont have any more of a better excuse than me for why we voted for the people we voted for.

I'm afraid to say

HoS:Seb

. Forgetting to read a page could be fatal. Imagine a situation where Mirth was a L-1. You forgot to read a page and hammered him. Say he was a cop. We would have lost a cop thanks to you forgetting to read a page. Also you weren't even at L-2 by this point. Why were you so nervous?

Post 53- I agree with you on this post. But I still don't like the fact that he missed a page, but yea, it is more that he immediately jumped on the bandwagon.

54- There isn't much wrong here, except the fact that he says he will not wagon "...if you want ...". Why do you do stuff on what we want. It should be based on evidence that you, or someone else, has posted.

Post 59-61: Wow. Wowowowow. The "Fine kill me, I don't care" card(if there isn't actually that card, then there should be) Come on. Scummy, scummy, scummy. If you were town you wouldn't just keel over and die because people are pressuring you. I now officially

IGMEOY:Seb

.

64- Lol. Same here. Sorry If i seemed pressurising. I didn't mean to. Anyway, justified point Mr A.

70- One point of this, when Dej said that he wouldn't vote this time around, I think he meant for that post. Not for Day 1 but I could be wrong.

Sorry about the long delay. I went out thinking I'd be back quick but I got stuck in traffic. Anyway, even though Seb in his last few posts has sounded less scummy, I still think that his action were very scummy. I would like the IC's to tell me if I should vote and put Seb at L-1? I want to vote but, if Seb is town, the Mafia may hammer. Should I vote or not? I wnat though.

[nureins]

I do not understand your metaphor.

Our guest Seb has thought that buddying up he can solve his problems (so he started to please us accepting our points, unvoting, unfossing and saying ill be a good guy, i promise !! let me be in the party !! oh you two are the masters of the universe, the ones organizing the party....)

For me, it is just one more signal. Buddying...

But I want other players to analyze seb before having a more serious opinion. I do not want to be tunnelvisioned, and therefore adding some external view is ok. Ill talk and analyze other players and remain observing how seb goes on falling and falling....

[Mirth]

Chuck, I am a she and was never at L-1. Also can we please stop mentioning power roles?

as for L-1, I would prefer if you didn't just yet, but if you had done it, I would have unvoted for the time being. We still have some people who aren't yet playing and I want to hear from them. (And town can hammer just as well if Seb is town, btw, because he is rather scummy and some newbies are trigger happy.)

[ChuckNorris]

Chuck, I am a she and was never at L-1. Also can we please stop mentioning power roles?

I was merely metioning a possibility. Not what it actually was. I was just replying to the fact that Seb said "...Making a Mistake isn't a crime..." I was telling him that it could have been fatal.

Sorry about calling you a he btw.

[dejkha]

Only scummies and very very noob ones ask for no-lynch in first round...
Im yet trying to decide what you are, but the fact that you ask for a no-lynch when seb456 is showing his scumness so openly is very suspicious to me...

No, it's just that due to Mirth's... aggression toward being voted against, I dont think scum would do something like that. Unless it is just about her personality, then either way, it would be the same thing I guess. I'm just waiting to see about Seb myself. It just seemed like he was a newbie under pressure (in which I can relate), but then he said

I would like to say that if I die, I forgive everyone that voted for me.

The evidence was there. It was all there. Doesn't matter how, but it is.

I don't know... that just has me under suspicion. Saying "all the evidence is there" and what not. IMO he seems like a tough one to read, because on one hand he could just be giving up since everyone seems to be all over him or he's scum that's made a few mistakes and is just trying ways to make us believe otherwise, such as hoping he getskilled one way or another.

[seb456zig]

Sorry if I was a little misleading, but it's a very bad habit I've got. And also, sometimes I lie to pretend to be smarter, and thus more respected. That hasn't worked and now I'm down to deep. The only thing I can actually hope for is a mafia double-hammer, which would mean I actually contribute. But after Mirth mentioned the "newbie trigger happy" remark, it felt pointless to just point a finger on a hammerer. Tell me what you think.

[seb456zig]

Chuck Norris, i think that you, saying stuff that everyone else has said about my scummienes, are just trying to hide something. And upgrading your FOS during posts. Just trying to put the weight on someone. I think that you are going to hammer me when I get to L-1. Just saying, learn from me as an example and shut up when you dan't need to talk. Everyone has already pointed out what you said.