Mini 658 - Facedown and Thirsty Mafia (Game Over)

[Mokina]

Unvote, Vote: drake_259

I REALLY don't like how he just sneaks on to the Kairyuu bandwagon without adding anything.

It just seems like he's doing what he said drake was doing (except on another bandwagon)... Hypocrisy much?

Hypocrisy a little, not much. Bird1111 has created an argument against Drake, albeit an underdeveloped one. Drake has joined Kairyuu wagon without explaining himself, and that sort of behavior will always have scum connotations. I think Iron Man already has this one covered.

Okay, it's Monday, which means it's also Mokinaday. I'm unofficially resuming discussion.

StrangerCoug, what do you think the town should be doing right now? You seem to be with CDB on the issue of necessary pressure, so who would you say deserves the most real scrutiny?

Drake, it's interesting to see how people gave you a hard time for the Kairyuu vote, causing you to cave when the bandwagon built up. Not to be a scary psychoanalyst, but that suggests you're doing what other people want you to. Take advice with a grain of salt, mmkay?

Nhat, thoughts in general?

[StrangerCoug]

I do agree drake_259 is scummy. My other two suspects are Iron Man for self-voting and Kairyuu for mindless bandwagoning.

[Kairyuu]

@StrangerCoug: -facepalm- How many times do I have to say that the vote was not

mindless

or

bandwagoning

, but rather made according to who I thought it would put the most pressure on. It is a valid strategy, especially when I planned to remove the vote as soon as I had found a real suspect, which I have (my vote is on DoS). I don't have a problem with suspicion being cast my way, but at least try to find a valid reason, or at the very least explain why I am wrong about my own thought process.

[StrangerCoug]

@StrangerCoug: -facepalm- How many times do I have to say that the vote was not

mindless

or

bandwagoning

, but rather made according to who I thought it would put the most pressure on.

I still don't think it's a good idea to pressure someone to an L-3, but there are others here that beg to differ.

[drake_259]

@Drake: If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. If I'm right then I want explanation as to why you still like your vote.

i wanted it their until i have gone a bit lower on my mafia list,

Could you clarify what you mean by this? I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

sorry i missed the him

so it should be like this:

i wanted it their until i have him gone a bit lower on my mafia list

[RandomGem]

@Drake: If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. If I'm right then I want explanation as to why you still like your vote.

i wanted it their until i have gone a bit lower on my mafia list,

Could you clarify what you mean by this? I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

sorry i missed the him

so it should be like this:

i wanted it their until i have him gone a bit lower on my mafia list

So... you wanted your vote there until he got lower on your mafia list? Like... until he got less suspicious in your eyes? (Sorry, still a bit confused.)

[Natirasha]

@StrangerCoug: -facepalm- How many times do I have to say that the vote was not

mindless

or

bandwagoning

, but rather made according to who I thought it would put the most pressure on.

I still don't think it's a good idea to pressure someone to an L-3, but there are others here that beg to differ.

...L-3? That's stupid. No one would quicklynch at L-3.

[Kairyuu]

@Drake: Not helping, Drake. We've been waiting for you to come back so that discussion could resume, and all you can do is correct your

grammar

. I am almost positive that no one here had a problem with filling in your missing word. What has been asked of you is for an elaboration on your reasoning. Please provide it. I am willing to write this off as another newbie mistake, but that's your second strike in my book. The third strike comes with no more tolerance and heavy suspicion.

@Natirasha: Thank you. He doesn't seem to be able to comprehend that.

[Iron Man]

I'm still waiting for drake to post a case. I know that he's new to the sight, but I think he should at least make an attempt at it.

[bird1111]

@Drake: If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. If I'm right then I want explanation as to why you still like your vote.

i wanted it their until i have gone a bit lower on my mafia list,

Could you clarify what you mean by this? I can't tell what you are trying to say here.

sorry i missed the him

so it should be like this:

i wanted it their until i have him gone a bit lower on my mafia list

By lower on the mafia list, did you mean when he was less scummy, when someone else was more scummy, a mix of the two, or something else?

[drake_259]

when he had became less scummier and one or two other people were looking more scummier then i would either change or drop my vote and start looking into that new person.

[nhat]

Okay, after having a reread, I've seen that Drake is playing rather strangely. In the post after he makes his vote on Kairyuu with zero explanation, he tries to take the wind out of the suspicions on him by ranting something about his posting frequency:

Wow just because i have replyed in the last 24 hours people are FOS'ing me, since there are alot of people that go off longer than i just did.

Then, he unvotes due to V/LA but adds at the end:

i don't want you going out if i find that your innocent while im away

I'm wondering why he would say this...I mean, the whole situation looks like he was voting for Kairyuu (to distance himself perhaps?) and stating that he was literally waiting for him to look more town so that he could unvote him. Then he unvoted because of V/LA, perhaps in case Kairyuu was bandwagoned while Drake was away.

Meanwhile, while others were dropping votes and fingers of suspicion on Drake, Kairyuu handles him with kid's gloves. After Drake votes him, Kairyuu kindly asks for explanation:

@Drake: There isn't actually anything to address to you becuase your post did not provide reasoning except to call me scummy. If you would kindly explain your vote a bit more I will attempt to explain myself.

Then when Drake dropped his WIFOM explanation, Kairyuu FoS's him, but it could be both distancing and coaching at the same time:

@Drake: I hate WIFOM. It's horribly unhelpful to the town and leads to rampant paranoia. It also leads to utterly baseless arguments. In other words you just told me that you have no case. you were the second vote on me, so this is not bandwagoning in my opinion. The WIFOM alone is enough for me to FOS: Drake though.

THEN, when Drake posts to fix his sentence stating that he wants to see Kairyuu look more innocent, Kairyuu posts this:

@Drake: Not helping, Drake. We've been waiting for you to come back so that discussion could resume, and all you can do is correct your grammar. I am almost positive that no one here had a problem with filling in your missing word. What has been asked of you is for an elaboration on your reasoning. Please provide it. I am willing to write this off as another newbie mistake, but that's your second strike in my book. The third strike comes with no more tolerance and heavy suspicion.

How many strikes are you giving this cat? He voted you with no reasoning, FoS him for WIFOM, then you point out that he's still not explaining himself, and that's your second strike? And only after the third strike he will come under heavy suspicion?

I'm pretty convinced that you two are scum partners, with Mokina being a possible third. Just have a look at what she's had to say about the whole Drake situation:

Drake worries me a little, but StrangerCoug freaks me out.

Careful there; that's dangerously close to being WIFOM.

my vote stands for now

Could you remind me of the reasoning behind your vote? Just checking...

Drake, it's interesting to see how people gave you a hard time for the Kairyuu vote, causing you to cave when the bandwagon built up. Not to be a scary psychoanalyst, but that suggests you're doing what other people want you to. Take advice with a grain of salt, mmkay?

Aside from him worrying her a little (then quickly shifting the spotlight to Strangercoug) Mokina is straight up coaching him. I have you down as suspicious by association.

vote - Drake_259
HoS - Kairyuu
FoS - Mokina

[Kairyuu]

@Nhat: Interesting theory. Only problem is that it's wrong.

I mean, the whole situation looks like he was voting for Kairyuu (to distance himself perhaps?) and stating that he was literally waiting for him to look more town so that he could unvote him

I'd like to hear a better explanation from Drake before commenting on his motives, but I seem to be under suspicion, so I will address it.

Drake did what everyone does. He voted for someone he found scummy, and he decided to wait until that person started looking less scummy in his book than someone else. This is the same style I use. With the exception of my random vote, (and pressure vote in this game) I do not pull a vote until I have reason to believe someone else has a better chance of being scum. I consider this a valid strategy, so I only asked for a bit of explanation from him to see how his motives looked.

Meanwhile, while others were dropping votes and fingers of suspicion on Drake, Kairyuu handles him with kid's gloves. After Drake votes him, Kairyuu kindly asks for explanation:

Excuse me

for being nice. Would you prefer I split myself in two and vote for two people at once. I actually have something to go on with DoS, and a lack of information provided by Drake. Thus, I went with the vote I had reasoning for, and asked for explanation from the person I had none from. If you will notice, I did the same thing with Iron Man. I asked him politely for elaboration on his reasoning, so that I could address the issue. I try to take that approach. This is supposed to be a fun game, so I do not want to ruin it for people by being rude.

Then when Drake dropped his WIFOM explanation, Kairyuu FoS's him, but it could be both distancing and coaching at the same time:

I have been coaching Drake. He is new, and if no one is willing to help him along, then how will he learn how to play properly. That said, this was not an example of that coaching. I really do hate WIFOM. In my newbie game it seems like WIFOM is the favorite argumentative style of half of the players, and every other post I have to disassemble someone's argument to point out how it isn't valid.

How many strikes are you giving this cat? He voted you with no reasoning, FoS him for WIFOM, then you point out that he's still not explaining himself, and that's your second strike? And only after the third strike he will come under heavy suspicion?

You seem to misunderstand my reasoning. I am giving him three strikes of things that could very well be newbie mistakes. The first was the WIFOM argument. The second was the failure to elaborate. He has one more strike before I will start challenging him as if he were experienced. That is my prerogative.

I'm pretty convinced that you two are scum partners, with Mokina being a possible third. Just have a look at what she's had to say about the whole Drake situation

So, in other words, you find people who are polite, helpful to newbies, and don't tear other people's arguments apart violently scummy? From what I see, you are attacking Drake for

being

a newbie, Mokina for

being nice to

a newbie, and me for being a newbie who is trying to be nice to a fellow newbie. By the same reasoning, CDB is scummy for being polite and giving me the benefit of the doubt for my pressure vote. Personally, I think CDB is probably town, but you should probably attack him if you want to keep true to your logic.

Therefore, in order to prove myself as not scummy to Nhat. I will say this. Drake, you are a complete $&#@(^%& moron. Your points are failures at life. Also, RandonGem, you fail too because you are trying to add to discussion but with ^*%$&%& terrible logic. (Note: these are not my actual opinions)

Happy, Nhat? Looking for scumbuddies this early is likely to be useless. I'm sorry, but this is true in most of the games I've read.

All of this said, I do not find you scummy. Your points have logic behind them. Poor logic, but still logic. You are truly trying to scumhunt, which rings town to me.

[Mokina]

Aside from him worrying her a little (then quickly shifting the spotlight to Strangercoug) Mokina is straight up coaching him. I have you down as suspicious by association.

We have a disproportionately high number of newbies in this game. With a few notable exceptions, they tend to follow the example of more experienced players. Meta-wise, that's a good thing, a way of learning. But within the bounds of the game, followers are the quintessential uninformed majority. I'm just worried that later on, people like Kairyuu and Drake are going to be all too easily led if they can't think for themselves.

As far as my own suspicions go, the difference is in the contribution. I feel like Kairyuu is willing to analyze a situation, whereas Drake has been avoiding questions from other players and has yet to provide a reason for his voting record. StrangerCoug's been seeming more eager to explain himself of late, so I'm inclined to

Unvote

and

FoS: Drake

.

So, in other words, you find people who are polite, helpful to newbies, and don't tear other people's arguments apart violently scummy? From what I see, you are attacking Drake for being a newbie, Mokina for being nice to a newbie, and me for being a newbie who is trying to be nice to a fellow newbie. By the same reasoning, CDB is scummy for being polite and giving me the benefit of the doubt for my pressure vote. Personally, I think CDB is probably town, but you should probably attack him if you want to keep true to your logic.

Ohhhh boy.

The above quote is full of ridiculous strawman, probably because you fail to realize that Nhat has a point. To trust someone just because they're a newbie would be a mistake indeed. Furthermore, it's completely within reason to watch for buddies at this point in the game. The post was completely logical, so why the angry response?

Looks like someone feels threatened.

[Kairyuu]

@Mokina: I didn't say that I trusted Drake. I said that I would give him another chance before going after him myself. As for the buddies comment, we must return to my Newbie game to explain that one. I had a run-in with another player, who attacked one of our ICs for looking for scumbuddies and then suggesting them in the vey same post. I guess keeping an eye out would be a good thing, but I still don't like Nhat's methods of determining who is linked with who. The angry response was because I was trying to help out a fellow newbie and I got attacked for it.

[nhat]

@Kairyuu - Coney Island is not the place to learn the ropes. If Drake wants to jump into the deep end, then he can learn the hard way.

And since when is attacking people's arguments rude? That's basically how a mafia game can even function in a forum setting. How much benefit are you going to give to him because he is a noob? Time and time again you let him slide, and that reflects on you. So basically your rebuttal is that you are being nice to the noobs.

Also, I don't like your faux outburst because that's not what I was meant at all. It's fine to attack someone's logic without being a huge cock. I think you are confusing the two.

[Kairyuu]

And since when is attacking people's arguments rude?

I didn't say it was rude. I said that it is rude to attack someone for trying to be polite and helpful.

That's basically how a mafia game can even function in a forum setting. How much benefit are you going to give to him because he is a noob?

As I said. Three strikes.

Also, I don't like your faux outburst because that's not what I was meant at all. It's fine to attack someone's logic without being a huge cock. I think you are confusing the two.

And that, my friend, is called ad-hominim argumentation, also know as invective. I attacked your argument and then added my own sarcastic interpretation of what you seemed to be asking for (with a note that I did not mean it) and you respond with a personal insult. This is quite sad really.

Oh well. In keeping with the spirit that this is a

game

I will not mention this again unless you choose to pursue your personal attacks, in which case I will request a replacement. I joined this site with the intent to play mafia, not have insults slung at me.

[nhat]

Yeah guy, where am I insulting you? I was just pointing out that attacking arguments doesn't equate to slinging insults. I wasn't calling you a huge cock, but after reading it again, I can see how you took it that way. My apologies.

[Kairyuu]

Thank you. I apologize if I offended you in any way with my sarcasm. I thought I was being funny.

[Iron Man]

Kay, can we move on now?

Drake, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt for the fact that you are new to the site, but if you dont post at least an attempt at a case soon, I'm going to have to start withdrawing that benefit.

So far, you have posted minimalist posts without much content of your own. I've seen multiple posts stating "so and so is scummy, that's why I'm voting".

Please show me that my benefit wasnt wasted.

[Mokina]

Kay, can we move on now?

Drake, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt for the fact that you are new to the site, but if you dont post at least an attempt at a case soon, I'm going to have to start withdrawing that benefit.

So far, you have posted minimalist posts without much content of your own. I've seen multiple posts stating "so and so is scummy, that's why I'm voting".

Please show me that my benefit wasnt wasted.

Quoted for much truth.

[drake_259]

Okay, after having a reread, I've seen that Drake is playing rather strangely. In the post after he makes his vote on Kairyuu with zero explanation, he tries to take the wind out of the suspicions on him by ranting something about his posting frequency:

Wow just because i have replyed in the last 24 hours people are FOS'ing me, since there are alot of people that go off longer than i just did.

That was because i swear someone said about me not posting, but i have tried to look for it but i cannot find it so it was proberly not posted and i read something wrong

Then, he unvotes due to V/LA but adds at the end:

i don't want you going out if i find that your innocent while im away

I'm wondering why he would say this...I mean, the whole situation looks like he was voting for Kairyuu (to distance himself perhaps?) and stating that he was literally waiting for him to look more town so that he could unvote him. Then he unvoted because of V/LA, perhaps in case Kairyuu was bandwagoned while Drake was away.

or prehaps i didn't want him voted off if i found him innocent by something he had said and i couldn't unvote as i wouldn't have known

Meanwhile, while others were dropping votes and fingers of suspicion on Drake, Kairyuu handles him with kid's gloves. After Drake votes him, Kairyuu kindly asks for explanation:

yeah maybe but in fact it also helped him out as i would of still been WIFOM him

@Drake: There isn't actually anything to address to you becuase your post did not provide reasoning except to call me scummy. If you would kindly explain your vote a bit more I will attempt to explain myself.

Then when Drake dropped his WIFOM explanation, Kairyuu FoS's him, but it could be both distancing and coaching at the same time:

thats is WIFOM as he could fight his case unless i said anything to it

@Drake: I hate WIFOM. It's horribly unhelpful to the town and leads to rampant paranoia. It also leads to utterly baseless arguments. In other words you just told me that you have no case. you were the second vote on me, so this is not bandwagoning in my opinion. The WIFOM alone is enough for me to FOS: Drake though.

THEN, when Drake posts to fix his sentence stating that he wants to see Kairyuu look more innocent, Kairyuu posts this:

@Drake: Not helping, Drake. We've been waiting for you to come back so that discussion could resume, and all you can do is correct your grammar. I am almost positive that no one here had a problem with filling in your missing word. What has been asked of you is for an elaboration on your reasoning. Please provide it. I am willing to write this off as another newbie mistake, but that's your second strike in my book. The third strike comes with no more tolerance and heavy suspicion.

How many strikes are you giving this cat? He voted you with no reasoning, FoS him for WIFOM, then you point out that he's still not explaining himself, and that's your second strike? And only after the third strike he will come under heavy suspicion?

this mistake was because i thought it was just the grammer people couln't read, i thought it was a bit obvious to understand if they had figured out the missing pieces

[nhat]

Drake, you defending Kairyuu further supports my case.

My vote stands.

[StrangerCoug]

yeah maybe but in fact it also helped him out as i would of still been WIFOM him

This is completely incomprehensible to me. Clarify with correct grammar (e.g. "would have" or "would've" instead of "would of") please.

[RandomGem]

Drake, you defending Kairyuu further supports my case.

My vote stands.

I'm inclined to defend drake too... He started out with poor play, but that last post, even with the bad grammar, seems to me to be at least an attempt... That would be the thing we wanted?