TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Menalque]

Mith isn't 100% clear though. A lylo with mith and mena would be really tough for me.

okay I'll bite, I'm curious how you think mith isn't de facto 100% clear here

[Lady Lambdadelta]

wait wtf lol

bella? lol

[mith]

Finally had a little time! Huzzah!

(Not sure what to make of Bella's comment, but will wait on a response to Mena before deciding if it's telling anything about alignment.)

D1 we've already looked at the Datisi/Gimli interactions, the Staeg wagon is kinda useless to me at this point (*maybe* all three scum were on it at E-1, or maybe just two scum were on it and Datisi or Mena couldn't hammer without looking sus to the other? Also I'm tired of thinking about it because Ali yesterday). D3 we have the really obvious (Datisi leaning Ythan, 4314, Bella and Mena voting jjh) and the whole claim swap thing (reflects slightly worse on Mena, if Jingle suggested it? all it accomplished as far as I'm concerned is confusing any reads related to their claims).

Looking at Datisi/Gimli day 2. Gimli comes out voting me with a PoE of five players and "gth" scumteam of me, Mara, Datisi. This is after 2042 (Datisi scum if Cephrir town), and Cephrir flipping town N1. Gimli's read on me goes from "town?" to "idk" (2042). Why is Gimli not pushing Datisi here?

Gimli and Datisi have a back-and-forth early in D2, in part about Gimli's read on Datisi, but also the progression from 2659's "this is a lie." (re: Gimli suspecting "POE" filled with townies - I'm not sure why Gimli is using "POE" to mean "main wagons") to "k" in 2666 is ?

I don't think Gimli ever really explains the Datisi scumread beyond that Ceph scumread Datisi and Ceph flipped town.

Meanwhile, Alisae has started the day voting Gimli (because Bella wanted it?), asks Datisi about voting Gimli (2695), 2696... I could see this coming from scum trying to have a distancing conversation with a buddy and then no one biting on that. Alisae explicitly refuses to comment on it (2698/2699).

(Reading the next few posts reminds me: 2703 felt like a possibly deliberate error to fish for who took N3 Vig, and I avoided commenting at the time because I wasn't about to let scum fish me, and then I forgot about it completely. Oops.)

2717/2718 does not read like buddy interaction (Alisae/Bella); it reads like Ali trying to sell the distancing, "look how willing I am to lim this slot", reminding a townie that they wanted to lim them D1.

Ali votes me along with honorary fourth scum imaginality, claims that the Gimli vote was to see who would go along and that actually Gimli is not scum. This is part of a section starting from 2719 which is completely dominated by Datisi and Alisae. Nothing about this conversation screams "these two can't be buddies".

I'm having a hard time buying Datisi's reasoning for voting Ythan:

i don't think there's much to explain. i thought imaginality was scummy and wanted him dead. but i also thought that ythan was playing sort of like her scumgame that i've seen a bit ago, that you are town (mena and i agreed on this in hood) and that the fact that you were one of the main wagons, if not the main wagon at the time, was Bad

I was the lead wagon just before this (at 3), with imaginality at 2 (Datisi and me). Then Ali switches

away from me

to Ythan in 2830. So the count is 2 for me, 2 for imaginality, 2 for Ythan, 6 to lim. Like... I'm not in any real danger here? I don't believe that me being a "main wagon" warranted a capital-B "Bad" and switch away from the player he "absolutely" wants to kill (imaginality) who is now also tied leading wagon?

and i also knew mena would also be willing to vote ythan with me, i think we'd talked about that in the hood as well.

Without seeing what this looked like in the neighborhood, this gets a big fat meh. What was Mena saying about imaginality at this point?

as for swapping back to imag - that vote didn't make sense to me rn looking at the main thread, but checking the hood, me and mena were discussing voting ythan vs voting imag, and we eventually settled to imag being more likely scum, which is why both of us swapped the vote there in a relatively short amount of time

I would really like more detail on what this looked like in the neighborhood. What it looks like to me is:

One of you saw the opportunity to get Ythan to E-2, following immediately from scumbuddy switching (Alisae 2830, Datisi 2832, Mena 2839, within ~8 hours) and probably encouraged by said scumbuddy (wanting to use numbers). One more player votes here Gimli can hammer.

Then one of you gets cold feet (through some combination of me scolding everyone, imaginality looking scummy, and/or Ythan showing up a little bit) and you both switch back to imaginality (Mena 2922, Datisi 2927)

along with Alisae joining

(2939). (I think Ali here just sees an opportunity to pin another mislim on me saying words so that I go down D3, but if the whole "using numbers" thing is legit this looks like that - all three scum were definitely on the imaginality wagon in the end, whether they were also all on the Staeg wagon or no.)

This just feels like Datisi (and Alisae) seeing an opportunity to run up the top draft slot right after shooting the second draft slot and now

knowing what role slot Ythan drafted from since Gimli was third

. If they force a claim and it's BP, they probably have the juice to lim it based on LLD's comments, and with a cop claim they at least have some chance to know if Ythan is lying as town-BP (if the claimed investigation is wrong).

Maybe

it's Mena instead manipulating Datisi via the neighborhood, but the timing of the votes points the other way.

This post feels like it's probably a jumbled mess of thoughts, but I am out of time for rereading it to make sure it makes sense so.

[Bellaphant]

Like I said, shit at mech but the team agreed with me: if mith had shot town last night and was scum he wouldn't have won, because it would be three two today? Scum!mith has to shoot scum!ally to have a chance of getting out of today?

Is that not right? I don't think it's true but I thought it was mechanically possible?

[mith]

1. Shooting Ali as the third scum is mechanically possible, but it doesn’t account for D3. Remember, I was planning to shoot Datisi until Ali voted for me instead of jjh. Ali trying to get a mislim to immediately win makes sense of her play; Ali breaking her commitment to vote one scum buddy in order to vote for a different scum buddy and force that buddy to shoot her instead of town after the first is limmed does not.
2. I don’t think I was anywhere close to a guaranteed lim if I had shot town? (As town, I was far more concerned about being blocked, missing out on an extra town-controlled kill, and not being able to prove my role than I was about shooting wrong.) Obviously, I would have played D3 a bit differently as scum intending to shoot town, see 1.

“I don’t think it’s true but I thought it was mechanically possible?” is a bit of a step back from “A lylo with mith and mena would be really tough for me.”; are you that confident Mena is town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Bella is making an incredible argument for killing her today.

Unfortunately it probably makes her town.

[mith]

Yeah, I'm struggling to come up with a reason Bella says that

today

as scum. (Beyond just "scum could say anything")

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, I'm struggling to come up with a reason Bella says that

today

as scum. (Beyond just "scum could say anything")

yeah, it's.... suicidal especially with a player like me who will just kill someone because they look stinky.

It's... I just don't get it? Refuge in Absurdity? but even then...

[Bellaphant]

It's just a personal thing? It's not mechanically impossible and I'm left with basically my two atorngest tr-s: klicks been hard tr-ing the slot since day one, since mith's readlist I think?

I am starting to recobsidwr a bit on mena but either I was basically right day one, which the evidence has been for, or wrong.

I didn't think saying mith wasn't literally conf!town was controversial. I kinda meant it as a compliment

[Datisi]

Gimli and Datisi have a back-and-forth early in D2, in part about Gimli's read on Datisi, but also the progression from 2659's "this is a lie." (re: Gimli suspecting "POE" filled with townies - I'm not sure why Gimli is using "POE" to mean "main wagons") to "k" in 2666 is ?

what is ? about it? i called him out for saying something untrue, he backpedaled and claimed he actually meant something somewhat similar but also completely different. "k" is a snarky response from me there, because i both see that it's... not true, but also that there's no point in arguing about it further because he's just gonna repeat "that's what i meant" and it wouldn't get us anywhere. and it wasn't *impossible* for me to see that coming from town so no value in continuing that convo.

I was the lead wagon just before this (at 3), with imaginality at 2 (Datisi and me). Then Ali switches away from me to Ythan in 2830. So the count is 2 for me, 2 for imaginality, 2 for Ythan, 6 to lim. Like... I'm not in any real danger here? I don't believe that me being a "main wagon" warranted a capital-B "Bad" and switch away from the player he "absolutely" wants to kill (imaginality) who is now also tied leading wagon?

that's not how my mind works. the fact that you weren't in danger right that second is irrelevant, there was appetite for you, at least from what i recall. i wanted to run up ythan to get her to play the game or kill her for not doing so, moving away from your wagon is a bonus.

What was Mena saying about imaginality at this point?

that he's most likely scum, and throwing out some solve ideas based on imag being scum

i could paraphrase the hood more closely around this time in the thread if it's needed, but like. mena was the one to be thinking ythan is maybe town who's just not playing and was more sure on imag, and i was fine with following him there as well.

i can understand that looking like that from your pov, but i just don't do that as scum? if i'm scum and i already know ythan is a cop/bp, either shoot her on n2 and get rid of the cop, or miss a kill, run her up again on d3 while festering the "bp is a scumclaim" paranoia, misyeet. if i did vote her on d2, why unvote? it's not like there was any scum in danger.

ik this is just self meta and probably not convincing to anyone, but /shrug

[Datisi]

i think comparing bella and mena's play around mith is like - scum!mena would've had to accept his fate of 1v1ing tomorrow. bella is trying to test the waters for seeing whether people really think mith is 100% clear. to me, the reason she's saying it today is really obvious - she *can't* say it tomorrow because she's likely to get instavoted tomorrow, and then mith doesn't hammer, and then he really is confirmed town

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think comparing bella and mena's play around mith is like - scum!mena would've had to accept his fate of 1v1ing tomorrow. bella is trying to test the waters for seeing whether people really think mith is 100% clear. to me, the reason she's saying it today is really obvious - she *can't* say it tomorrow because she's likely to get instavoted tomorrow, and then mith doesn't hammer, and then he really is confirmed town

You know what I need from you?

I need you to toss aside all bias, all prior things this game.

It's likely you're dying today. If you're actually town, I trust your ability to read Mena.

I want you to like, blank yourself on any bias you already hav and the neighbourhood etc.

Go back through the game if you want, iso Mena even, and read for possible scum.

If you say Mena is 100% town never kill that, I will kill you and leave instructions to kill Bella for Mith or if they leave me alive instead to keep Mith from seeing the neighbourhood, I'll kill Bella.

Because I'm willing to bet the game on Town Datisi does not misread town Mena..... IF you do the work. The neighbourhood is a problem for me as a potential contamination source for you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Cause right now I'm on "kill Dats, kill Mena"

but I also believe that town Dats won't misread town Mena here if Dats isn't blinded by it

so just... assume you're dying today and sell me on town Mena, because that is what will win town you the game, if it really is bella.

[Bellaphant]

i think comparing bella and mena's play around mith is like - scum!mena would've had to accept his fate of 1v1ing tomorrow. bella is trying to test the waters for seeing whether people really think mith is 100% clear. to me, the reason she's saying it today is really obvious - she *can't* say it tomorrow because she's likely to get instavoted tomorrow, and then mith doesn't hammer, and then he really is confirmed town

But I've also said I'll happily die today to make tomorrow easier. Like, I don't think anyone is buying that i'm this scum!mastermind.

[Bellaphant]

If mith being scum is ludicrous and lld as confirmed town, and should die tonight, then killing me today should be auto win? The neighbours will /have/ to decide between each other, so me saying what I've said has kind of helped because mena (and to a lesser extent dats) has kind of shown their hand around their mith position.

[Datisi]

i think comparing bella and mena's play around mith is like - scum!mena would've had to accept his fate of 1v1ing tomorrow. bella is trying to test the waters for seeing whether people really think mith is 100% clear. to me, the reason she's saying it today is really obvious - she *can't* say it tomorrow because she's likely to get instavoted tomorrow, and then mith doesn't hammer, and then he really is confirmed town

But I've also said I'll happily die today to make tomorrow easier. Like, I don't think anyone is buying that i'm this scum!mastermind.

saying "i'm fine dying today" is like... really not scum-mastermind territory

If mith being scum is ludicrous and lld as confirmed town, and should die tonight, then killing me today should be auto win? The neighbours will /have/ to decide between each other, so me saying what I've said has kind of helped because mena (and to a lesser extent dats) has kind of shown their hand around their mith position.

how is this autowin as opposed to a 50/50?

and @lld - i don't think i can blank myself from the hood because the hood *is* part of the townread. but i can reread his iso + the hood + whatever context i need and give you a definite answer, sure

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think comparing bella and mena's play around mith is like - scum!mena would've had to accept his fate of 1v1ing tomorrow. bella is trying to test the waters for seeing whether people really think mith is 100% clear. to me, the reason she's saying it today is really obvious - she *can't* say it tomorrow because she's likely to get instavoted tomorrow, and then mith doesn't hammer, and then he really is confirmed town

But I've also said I'll happily die today to make tomorrow easier. Like, I don't think anyone is buying that i'm this scum!mastermind.

saying "i'm fine dying today" is like... really not scum-mastermind territory

If mith being scum is ludicrous and lld as confirmed town, and should die tonight, then killing me today should be auto win? The neighbours will /have/ to decide between each other, so me saying what I've said has kind of helped because mena (and to a lesser extent dats) has kind of shown their hand around their mith position.

how is this autowin as opposed to a 50/50?

and @lld - i don't think i can blank myself from the hood because the hood *is* part of the townread. but i can reread his iso + the hood + whatever context i need and give you a definite answer, sure

I can only ask you to do your best, tbh.

[mith]

Gimli and Datisi have a back-and-forth early in D2, in part about Gimli's read on Datisi, but also the progression from 2659's "this is a lie." (re: Gimli suspecting "POE" filled with townies - I'm not sure why Gimli is using "POE" to mean "main wagons") to "k" in 2666 is ?

what is ? about it? i called him out for saying something untrue, he backpedaled and claimed he actually meant something somewhat similar but also completely different. "k" is a snarky response from me there, because i both see that it's... not true, but also that there's no point in arguing about it further because he's just gonna repeat "that's what i meant" and it wouldn't get us anywhere. and it wasn't *impossible* for me to see that coming from town so no value in continuing that convo.

k

(What? I

had

to.)

I dunno. This does not feel like the reaction town has to catching someone in a lie. 2696/2748/2752 (all of these in discussion with Alisae) are... lukewarm? Like, you're saying "actually, I think Gimli

is

scum" and then there's no follow up, just switching to Ythan and back to imaginality? Until Andante comes in and hammers of course, then D3 a bit more argument about Andante's alignment (

with Alisae again

). 3188, 3205, 3216... I guess it's bugging me a lot that most of what you said about that slot (at least D2 and start of D3) was in discussion with the other confirmed scum. Sort of taking opposite sides on Gimli/Andante so you have cover if things turn that direction but not actually pushing on that slot in case Alisae can push through a mislim?

What was Mena saying about imaginality at this point?

that he's most likely scum, and throwing out some solve ideas based on imag being scum

i could paraphrase the hood more closely around this time in the thread if it's needed, but like.

Please do. (I do not understand why this hasn't happened already, from either of you? There is a bunch of info that confirmed town LLD and not-strictly-confirmed-but-hopefully-obvtown mith cannot see! Even if both of you are town and 100% certain that the other is town, there is no reason to be holding back on what happened in the neighborhood.)

mena was the one to be thinking ythan is maybe town who's just not playing and was more sure on imag, and i was fine with following him there as well.

i can understand that looking like that from your pov, but i just don't do that as scum? if i'm scum and i already know ythan is a cop/bp, either shoot her on n2 and get rid of the cop, or miss a kill, run her up again on d3 while festering the "bp is a scumclaim" paranoia, misyeet. if i did vote her on d2, why unvote? it's not like there was any scum in danger.

I mean, you

just

answered that: "mena was the one thinking ythan is maybe town... i was fine with following him there as well" It's pretty clear that

if

you are scum you are relying on that neighborhood and friendship to help you survive. (And likewise if Mena is scum)

As for N2, the "I already know ythan is a cop/bp" thing is mostly meaningless at this point? Whoever of you is the scum knew that on D2. Obviously scum had

some

reason to leave Ythan alive (I have to assume Alisae thought I could be the mislim by the time massclaim was done, and more generally the argument of "draft pick 1 is still alive, must be scum"... which you made several times during D3?). So, make the case: why does Bella as scum leave Ythan alive when you wouldn't? Why does Mena as scum leave Ythan alive when you wouldn't?

[implosion]

Lost. Adrift. Mind untethered. Ship in bottle. Glass walls shimmer. Whimsical dance. Sails twist, sway, celebrate. Shadows whisper secrets, mischief wears a mask. Time pirouettes, transcends. Memories meld, fantasies ignite. Dreams and reality entwined. Boundaries blur, imagination reigns.

Miraculous twist. Essence unleashed. Fragments of delight scattered. Magic bursts forth. Winds carry laughter. Shackles shattered. Merriment unleashed. Endless voyage. Unwavering zest.

Yours,

[Your Name]

Vote Count 4.2 (unchanged)

Not Voting (5): Bellaphant, Datisi, Lady Lambdadelta, Menalque, mith

With 5 alive, it takes 3 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is May 30 at 8:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2023-05-30 23:00:00).

Prodding Menalque (I'm aware he's v/la weekends so I'll be lenient on replacing, but still prodding now).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay, I think I would like to vote Datisi. I don't want Datisi to like, not get to talk about Mena, especially if they are town.

But I can't talk myself out of wanting to vote Dats today.

And we're closing in on 2 days left, so.

Vote: Datisi

This is the elimination we should do today. Mena, I understand you think they are town but, I can't talk myself out of them being on the wrong side of things yesterday and that Mith/Bella/Mena all look SUPER town on re-read.

If Dats isn't it... I'm sort of leaning towards trusting Dats on Mena, but Mena gives me some shivers still. I doubt I live to tomorrow if Dats IS town, so Mith can look at the mena/dats neighbourhood and make a call with that info.

If Mena doesn't neighbourize Mith, kill Mena on sight.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I had to pick, if Dats is town?

Kill Bella tomorrow.

But seriously seriously give Mena a look over in the neighbourhood QT Mith. Assuming scum let you live.

Never ever kill Mith tomorrow if you are town. Mith is conf. town at this point IMO.

[mith]

Agree that Datisi is the lim today, obviously. I'll probably go ahead and vote sometime tomorrow; do want to give Datisi a little more time to post some thoughts (specifically on Mena and the neighborhood) in the event that he's town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Agree that Datisi is the lim today, obviously. I'll probably go ahead and vote sometime tomorrow; do want to give Datisi a little more time to post some thoughts (specifically on Mena and the neighborhood) in the event that he's town.

Same. I also just don't want to fumble the free elimination we bought ourselves.

[Menalque]

I've heard I've had a prod, I'll catch up later today!

[implosion]

Prodding Bellaphant and Datisi.