Mini 649-Everything comes down to money(Game Over)

[lifeofpie]

A jester is a good guess at what Coron is because it seems like he's encouraging people to lynch him.

Sir, you say YC shouldn't guess that Coron is a jester because it doesn't matter at L-1. He did state, though, that Coron could be something else. It's just speculation.

Unvote

FOS: Coron

[Y.C]

lifeofpie is right. I think his tactic is intentionally lurking and not providing an explanation for that.
Now, there is a good chance that I'm wrong, since that is quite a rare role. But it's something to consider.


Airhead, why nervous you ask?
Because of posts such as these:

riboflavin could you please respond. thanks.

Impatience is a tell-tale, especially when your prior post was only 3 posts before that, which also raised some slight suspicion because of wording such as this:

What makes you ask me that.

The combination of both of these posts does not make you look sure of yourself. The FoS on you was a means of exacting pressure to get a decent explanation.
Can you explain the above posts?

[Artem]

I wouldn't wagon Coron just yet for the slight chance of him being a jester.

On the other hand, I've never played with him, so he might use this kind of tactic to confuse both town

AND mafia

, meaning he is in a 3rd party faction of some sort.

Do any of you think there is more to this than just apathetic playing-style?

Ok. Why do you think that Coron's actions are confusing the mafia, if you're not mafia yourself?

Unvote; Vote Y.C

[Y.C]

Artem, I do not think Coron's actions confuse the mafia, I merely said it's a

possibility

if he's 3rd party, like an SK or some Cult variation. Obviously, jester also fits that group.

By giving an assumption as clearly as one can, one rather clears suspicion off oneself. I believe in the broad interpretation of "lynch all liars", being especially wary of the use of any form of misdirection or withholding information. Naturally, I practice this as well.
By not stating these type of things for fear of being regarded scum, an advanced player may suspect something. One the other hand, being absolutely straight-forward regarding any thoughts I might have and sharing them with town, I am playing in what I believe to be the most pro-town fashion.

[Netlava]

Coron, thoughts on the game? Are you admitting that you are indeed lurking on purpose?

common coron join into our convos ur starting to become suspicous, it appears as though you are trying to stay low key, they only reason i could see to lay low in this game would be as scum or a power role e.g cop/doctor

As a rule of thumb, riboflavin, mentioning power roles is bad, and this post sounds like a set-up for future claims.

@ Light-kun: I explained why I found Y.C's comment scummy already but I'll try to clarify. The main thing I didn't like was the "intended to vent or steer away discussion" bit. It seems like he is assigning malicious intent to something that isn't there.

My comment to Airhead was about manner of delivery and not content, less due to a feeling that she is scum, more since I see this kind of stereotyping, even if not said completely seriously, as bad practice in what is ideally a logical debate.

This clarifies things a bit, but I'm not sure whether it follows from your initial post, seeing that you initially called it a major scumtell.

She is pursuing YC over Artem, and her reasoning is weak.

Well this argument assumes airhead is mafia (as you mentioned), but it also looks like you assume artem is more worthy of being pursued.

[Netlava]

Actually, I agree, I think Coron has a good chance of being a jester, because it looks like he is being scummy on purpose.

Now, here's the crucial piece of evidence...

Natirasha's favorite role is Roleblocker/Jester combo.

The wiki knows all!

Nati-Note: I don't like mod WIFOM.

[Netlava]

Eek, sorry, I was just joking

[sirdanilot]

Why is everyone saying Coron has a good chance of being a Jester? Firstly, there's a chance that there's no jester in the game, and even if there is, it doesn't have to be Coron. I have seen many people play like Coron before, and they were not Jesters. Some users on this site even play like this every single game

*coughlowellcough*

. What makes everyone think that Coron has to be a jester.

Especially Y.C. I am beginning to find him being so sure of your assumption he's a third party suspicious. Even if he is, we have nothing to lose if we pressure him a bit. Why was Y.C so paranoid that Coron would be a jester, while he was at l-4?

I think it'd be very pro-town if we would pressure him into l-2. This will prevent him from self-lynching and winning if he's the Jester, and if he isn't it will give the town some valuable information.

Also,

finger of shame Netlava

for mod WIFOMing Natirasha. Don't do that.

[Y.C]

I wouldn't wagon Coron just yet for the

slight chance

of him being a jester.

On the other hand, I've never played with him, so he might use this kind of tactic to confuse both town AND mafia, meaning he is in a 3rd party faction of some sort.



Do any of you think there is more to this than just apathetic playing-style?

This is the first post where I mentined this possibility. I bolded the important part. Even then, I was merely throwing it out there.

[sirdanilot]

Allright, could you then answer this question:

Do you think that the slight chance of Coron being a jester was a good reason not to vote him while he was at l-4?

Please answer with 'yes' or 'no' and a short explanation.

[riboflavin]

maybe covering up for ur partner y.c?

[Airhead]

YC, what justification do you have that impatience is a "tell-tale" scum tell. I'm very impatient and I am not scum. Even so, how is it a bad thing to try and get riboflavin to answer my question when he has posted since I asked and completely ignored it. I find his ignoring it suspicious and I want to know the answer so I can proceed with figuring out who I find most suspicious.

As for asking lifeofpie why he asked me a question -- obviously I wanted to know why he asked me the question. Did he have good reason for thinking I was trying to bring suspicion upon myself, or was he just trying to implicate me. That sort of thing tells us the motives of a player and would be helpful in scum hunting.

YC it seems you are calling me impatient for aggressively scum hunting.

I agree with Netlava that YC seems to be back-tracking from his initial claim that I looked super scummy because of that comment; now it is just "something he was pointing out".

riboflavin

you have still not responded to my post.

Coron you need to get active in this game, or you are going to end up being lynched.

sirdanalot you said you were going to respond to my post; I'd like to hear that response. sirdanalot seems to be trying to be useful; I disagree wagoning Coron right now is the best idea.

Artem & Netlava are giving me some mild town tells which is nice to have, but nothing super solid.

lifeofpie and LK I am unsure about.

Before anyone asks: I highly doubt there are 4 scum in this game. However, I am voting or fos'ing everyone who I have found most suspicious up to this point, and I think that it is likely some/many of the scum lie with in these 4.

unvote: sirdanilot vote: Y.C
fos: riboflavin
fos: coron
littlefos: sirdanilot

[Y.C]

Allright, could you then answer this question:

Do you think that the slight chance of Coron being a jester was a good reason not to vote him while he was at l-4?

Please answer with 'yes' or 'no' and a short explanation.

Yes, since my playing style is such that I use my vote, which I consider an important move that carries more weight than just putting pressure on another player, rather sparingly.
This has the added benefit of transparency, since after each day it is much easier to see whom I had voted for, not giving me an opportunity to use flippancy of voting as a cover-up.

maybe covering up for ur partner y.c?

I cannot address this, since other than accusing me of being scum there is no real argument in this post that I can logically counter at this point.
Meaning, the only way to determine such a theory is by lynching either Coron or me.
What I

can

say is that I find Coron's behaviour very strange. Strange enough to lynch him if he does not respond to the various points raised in the last few pages.

YC, what justification do you have that impatience is a "tell-tale" scum tell. I'm very impatient and I am not scum. Even so, how is it a bad thing to try and get riboflavin to answer my question when he has posted since I asked and completely ignored it. I find his ignoring it suspicious and I want to know the answer so I can proceed with figuring out who I find most suspicious.

As for asking lifeofpie why he asked me a question -- obviously I wanted to know why he asked me the question. Did he have good reason for thinking I was trying to bring suspicion upon myself, or was he just trying to implicate me. That sort of thing tells us the motives of a player and would be helpful in scum hunting.

YC it seems you are calling me impatient for aggressively scum hunting.

I agree with Netlava that YC seems to be back-tracking from his initial claim that I looked super scummy because of that comment; now it is just "something he was pointing out".

Post no. 70, the first one where I commented on your remark, looks like this:

I've basically told

a group of mostly (teenage/20s) males on the internet

that they can't do something because it is bad. The natural reaction, obviously, is to ignore me and do it anyway. See posts 58, 65, etc.

Airhead, by introducing an issue irrelevant to any logical considerations, intended to either vent or steer away from the subject of discussion, you are making an "appeal to emotion". This is a major scum-tell, at least as I see it.

Notice I refrained from either FoS'ing or voting you in the above, since it was not a direct accusation, but rather a criticism of the age/gender reference itself.
By introducing such a personal element into the game, an emotional rather than logical element enters the game, since most players fall under that demographic. Since it has such a potential it is better to avoid it altogether.
Since that post, I FoS'ed you only when I noticed what seemed like sings of nervousness, a typical reaction of a novice player to accusation.
Since I am unfamiliar with your personal history and the only information available to me is the one on the forum, I assume there is at least a good chance you are just that - a novice player.

[sirdanilot]

Airhead, your post struck me as rather scummy. You are trying to accuse everyone and you're just basically all over the place, and you don't provide good reasoning for the many people you suspect.

And yes I'll reply to you after I am done with this post.

Coron you need to get active in this game, or you are going to end up being lynched.

Is that all you have to say about the matter? Any comments on how Y.C. is trying to cover Coron by saying he may be a jester?

sirdanalot you said you were going to respond to my post; I'd like to hear that response. sirdanalot seems to be trying to be useful; I disagree wagoning Coron right now is the best idea.

I will respond to your post.

Also, yes, I am trying to be useful (and I am in fact being useful). Isn't that the thing a townie is supposed to do? And you disagree that wagoning Coron is a good idea. Why? You do not give any arguments. If you say that voting/wagoning is not a good idea, you have to back that up by either

a. Giving better arguments that voting someone else is better.
b. Giving a really good argument that we shouldn't wagon Coron to l-2.

You did neither.

Before anyone asks: I highly doubt there are 4 scum in this game. However, I am voting or fos'ing everyone who I have found most suspicious up to this point, and I think that it is likely some/many of the scum lie with in these 4.

unvote: sirdanilot vote: Y.C
fos: riboflavin
fos: coron
littlefos: sirdanilot

Now, something interesting. You basically admit that you're just going to ramble about and spam suspicion on anyone? Seems like a pretty big change of play from when you first popped in, with an almost obsessive fixation only on me. Why do you think that a change of play would be beneficial to the town? Or are you desperately trying to avoid suspicion?

Now, what you've been waiting for.

sirdanalot we are talking past each other it seems. I don't understand how your defense is responding substantively at all. If you thought riboflaving was suspiciious then I don't see how it was pro-town to not vote him right then.

At that point, I was a bit torn between Artem and Ribo.

If you still thought the player you unvoted was the most suspicious, I don't see why you would unvote them. You seem to be saying it doesn't matter since you voted in your next post or that my point is invalid and I don't see how either of those are true.

Why do you not see that it doesn't matter? I voted the very next post. Give me a good reason that it matters.

Now you accuse me of focusing on only one player, when I have asked questions of many others. But I am focusing primarily on you -- I think that is a very effective way to judge someone's alignment -- to focus on them and make an assessment then move on if you think you are not likely scum. Your constant throwing back suspicion on my because I am suspicious of you is keeping you up there as highly scummy. It seems like a thickly veiled OMGUS.

Well, this last bit is a bit obsolete now as you've radically changed playing style, and I commented on that in this post. I find this radical change pretty scummy too. The fact that you suspect me doesn't mean I can't suspect you. Although I don't mind that you suspect me, I am suspicious of you because of other things, and I mention them in my posts (like the radical playing style change).

[lifeofpie]

Before anyone asks: I highly doubt there are 4 scum in this game. However, I am voting or fos'ing everyone who I have found most suspicious up to this point, and I think that it is likely some/many of the scum lie with in these 4.

unvote: sirdanilot vote: Y.C
fos: riboflavin
fos: coron
littlefos: sirdanilot

Now, something interesting. You basically admit that you're just going to ramble about and spam suspicion on anyone? Seems like a pretty big change of play from when you first popped in, with an almost obsessive fixation only on me. Why do you think that a change of play would be beneficial to the town? Or are you desperately trying to avoid suspicion?

What, is it bad to show the people you think are most scummy?

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 5

Riboflavin(1): Coron
Y.C(3): Netlava, Artem, Airhead
Coron(2): sirdanilot, riboflavin

Y.C would be lynched. 5 to lynch.

EDIT: By the way, in case you haven't checked the first page, I set a deadline.

[Airhead]

YC, about your voting style. I would argue that this opposes transparency; if you voted it would be clear who your suspects were.

I accept your overall treatment of me, but how can you explain how in that post you said it was a major scum tell, and now you say it is something not that related to scumminess that you were just pointing out.

Sirdanalot, I strongly disagree with your broad generalizations of my post. I do not accuse everyone, I am not all over the place, and I see myself as having decent reasons for all my thoughts.

About YC and Coron, I think it is best to find one scum before trying to look for connections to them. I think if Coron is town, it really doesn't say much about YC. I think if YC is town, it doesn't really say much about Coron. Only if one of them shows up scum would it make the other look scummy. I want to find one scum first before thinking about things like this.

Well when I said you were trying to be useful, I meant that as a compliment to your townness. Trying to look useful is suspicious. Trying to be useful is townlike.

I don't think wagoning to Coron will have much effect on how much he posts or what response we get from him. I would like to hear your argument for why you think it is the case that voting him would have a causal effect on his posting habits. I don't think he is the most suspicious player, I think YC is with his contradiction. That's all the reason I need to vote YC over Coron, you make it seem like some huge deal that I chose to vote someone over Coron.

I don't admit to rambling or spamming. I do admit that I am casting a wide net, and that I think not all the fish (players) in the net are scum. I had a fixation on you because I never really got you to respond to my suspicion of you, and other things were developing with other players that I didn't want to respond to until I had some discussion from them. Also, if you'll recall, I was being strongly attacked, and had to put scum hunting other players on hold for a few days while I defended myself. I am "chaing my play" because there is more things to comment on now, and it would not be time effective to focus on just one player. Earlier in the game, your unvoting was basically the only thing I found suspicious, so I ran with it. I find it odd that as my playstyle is naturally evolving with the ebb and flow of the game, you call my "changing my playstyle" to adapt to the game around me suspicious. Do you really think it would make sense at this stage in the game for me to focus on only one player. I think it does make sense early, but we are getting lots of content now and the one by one approach I like early I don't think would work nearly as well now.

I have given a good reason that unvoting matters. It shows that you are not willing to demonstrate who you find most suspicious right now. It shows you are waffling, and not puting a strong foot forward.

Again it seems we are talking past each other. I found a small scum tell on you (which I have admitted by no stretch of any imagination makes you definitely scum) and you are badgering me over and over about how the small scum tell is not a scum tell at all whatsoever, when I believe it is. Your fanaticism with saying that the small scum tell is a not scum tell at all is a bit odd to me, as well.

The fact that I suspect you doesn't mean you can't suspect me in general, but the fact that being suspicious of someone who was suspicious of you isn't ALWAYS OMGUS doesn't mean that in this case you are not OMGUS.

I only "changed my playstyle" (so you say) recently, so your suspicion of me which started before that cannot be because of that...

Before I "changed my playstyle" it seemed you were saying you were suspicious of me because I was suspicious of you.

That seems like OMGUS to me.

[Light-kun]

She is pursuing YC over Artem, and her reasoning is weak.

Well this argument assumes airhead is mafia (as you mentioned), but it also looks like you assume artem is more worthy of being pursued.

Actually, I am just pointing out her choice and commenting on a possibility. I am unsure of which would be better to pursue, but I might have tried to pursue both. Then again, that is my play style.
>.>
<.<
Trust no one.

[riboflavin]

lol im so tempted to vote for airhead for jsut posting ridiculasly long post's when a simple paragraph or two would be sufficent, i get a sense of airhead over explaning in most of the post's

but is this something to be suspicous of i think it is, or atleast something noted..

[Airhead]

That's funny riboflavin, because I am so tempted to vote for you for just ignoring most of what is going on in the game and posting two sentence posts, when you need at least a paragraph or two to adequately respond to everything going on around you.

I don't think that it is at all true that I could have conveyed everything I wanted to in one or two paragraphs.

[lifeofpie]

Give it up, ribo, not everyone's as perfect as you.

[sirdanilot]

somehow didn't notice this bit earlier

Yes, since my playing style is such that I use my vote, which I consider an important move that carries more weight than just putting pressure on another player, rather sparingly.
This has the added benefit of transparency, since after each day it is much easier to see whom I had voted for, not giving me an opportunity to use flippancy of voting as a cover-up.

Alright, that is just such a wrong argument. How does not voting equal transparency? Seems more like the contrary, actually.
Even if you don't suspect Coron (although it seems a bit odd to me that a towny would add no content to the game whatsoever), putting pressure on him would be very pro-town, as he might give in and release information. And even if he doesn't, that gives us information too. So because it doesn't suit your 'playstyle' (which is a pretty scummy argument too because it makes it sound like you can't help it or something which you can) you refuse to help the town? From that I can only conclude that you are now my suspect.

FoS Y.C.

Are you going to help the town or not?

On to airhead. Quite honestly, that's an absolutely humongous wall of text, could you divide that up in bits directed at individuals in the future, and clearly mark that.

Ie.:

riboflavin:

blablablabla

sirdanilot:

blablablayougetwhatImeannowdontyou

Sirdanalot

its sirdanilot

, I strongly disagree with your broad generalizations of my post. I do not accuse everyone, I am not all over the place, and I see myself as having decent reasons for all my thoughts.

Well when I said you were trying to be useful, I meant that as a compliment to your townness. Trying to look useful is suspicious. Trying to be useful is townlike.

I don't think wagoning to Coron will have much effect on how much he posts or what response we get from him. I would like to hear your argument for why you think it is the case that voting him would have a causal effect on his posting habits. I don't think he is the most suspicious player, I think YC is with his contradiction. That's all the reason I need to vote YC over Coron, you make it seem like some huge deal that I chose to vote someone over Coron.

Okay. I like this bit. The purpose of pressuring Coron would be to see whether he is going to give in or not. Although the former obviously gives us more information, the latter (that he refuses to post any content at all) is also not completely useless, I'm sure you see what I'm getting at here.
Now, you find Y.C. to be more scummy. That is a good reason not to vote Coron, however, Y.C. doesn't have such a good reason not to. In fact, he doesn't have a vote on anyone. That only adds to his suspicion.


As for the rest of your post, I find most of that are town-tells, so now you're a bit less suspicious (to me at least).

[Y.C]

sirdanilot, see post 112, in which I state my future policy regarding Coron:

What I

can

say is that I find Coron's behaviour very strange. Strange enough to lynch him if he does not respond to the various points raised in the last few pages.

And since we haven't heard anything from him this discussion began, I'll address him directly: Coron, if you don't answer to town allegations within the next 24 hours, I'm voting you, bringing your vote count to 3, meaning a lynch at deadline.

[Coron]

As far as I can tell people have been saying "that Coron guy, he doesn't post much." It's not like I'm gonna come in here and say "Yeah I have, look at all these secret hidden posts that you didn't notice."

I've been having problems engaging in this game, I suspect it is because I have never played with any of you people, and airhead keeps posting these silly-long air-filled posts.

Um. so yeah, that's about all the response to the lurking claim I can give.

[Y.C]

The argument of lurking due to unfamiliarity with the other players is a moot point, since a lot of people here can claim the same thing, people who have much less experience than you in playing mafia (and I'm no exception).

Vote Coron