Newbie 659: (Game Over)

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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:01 am

Post by bird1111 »

You string up EmpTyger, and then check his house. You soon realize that he was another townie, which is a shame as jultub and Jahudo have guns in their hands, meaning they must have been the Mafia.

Game Over, Scum wins!

threadreaper protected RestFermata.

Final Status:
Alive:
jultub, replacing PastorPoe, replacing cris150, Mafia Goon, wins
Jahudo, replacing stormer, replacing TartarianCerberus, replacing Zid, Mafia Goon, wins

Dead:
Riceballtail, Townie, lynched Day 1
threadreaper, Doctor, killed Night 1
pickemgenius, Townie, lynched Day 2
RestFermata, Townie, killed Night 2
EmpTyger, Townie, lynched Day 3
Adel, Townie, endgamed
Mane, Townie, endgamed
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:13 am

Post by RestFermata »

Well, I wasn't a very good townie, as PEG will probably say, but I was a townie nonetheless. I am sorry if I let us down. :( But good game, and well played, scum. I started actually feeling strongly about jultub in the end, but alas, it was too late, for I was dead. Should've taken a stand when I was alive. But it had to be Zid...
"Time forks endlessly toward innumerable futures. In one of them I am your enemy." —Jorge Luis Borges
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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:33 pm

Post by ShadowLurker »

I was planning to vote jultub after my reread.

Thought PEG and RF were town for sure, unsure on Emp.
:sadtorch Ken Hoang, A.D/Fuzzie, Cameron Ferris, Taj Johnson-George, Annie Duke, Patti Blagojevich, Maria/Tiffany :sadtorch
:torch Tammy/Victor, Dan/Jordan
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:04 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Adel: If you thought Emp and I were partners, why did you switch your vote?
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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:06 pm

Post by stormer »

Well done Jahudo, If i stayed in I think the Mafia would have lost. :D
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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:34 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

The lesson here is that innocents can’t play worse than mafia and expect to win. Because there is no way for the town to pick out who is guilty and who is innocent. This is, in a nutshell, why lurking is bad. jultub’s lurking was atrocious, but when SL and PEG were doing the same thing or worse, how could jultub’s alignment be discovered? (The disgusting replacement rate only made it worse. 20 players for a 9 role game?!)



stormer:
Why did you request replacement?



RF:
Don’t worry, I thought you played fine. (Except for a lurking tendency towards the end just when it hurt the town most, but with PEG acting the way he was, the damage was irreversible.) I don’t understand why PEG went after you so singlemindedly



PEG:
What happened? I can understand getting a mistaken read about a player, okay. But it seemed like you weren’t even trying.



jultub:
What “cleared you” from guilt, at least in my eyes, was Adel’s play. I didn’t see you as being Adel’s partner. (Which, well, you weren’t.) That’s what I kept coming back to. So even though you were incredibly uncurious about who was Adel’s partner, and had played atrociously D2- I just couldn’t fit you into that mafia pairing. Ironically, while I did pick up on you as waiting for a partner to signal you, I speculated the wrong possibility with Mane, which of course led nowhere, when one of Adel/Jahudo had to be mafia.



Adel:
Again, baffling play. I don’t really know where to begin…Not reading the whole thread before lynching? Deliberately acting suspicious? Relying- in a newbie game- solely on a strategy that doesn’t let you analyze newbies? Playing deliberately suspiciously? Votehopping in lynch-or-lose? Holding back information when you’re at lynch-or-lose with 1 vote already on you?
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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:16 am

Post by jultub »

Well, I never really needed a signal for when I should log in, since that time was already set long ago ^^ And Adel seemed annoyingly arrogant throughout the game, seems to me that she never questions her own words. Maybe it works when you got something to go on. But considering that I did have time when I first joined the game, and had several personalities set up and chose which one I should take by the roll of a dice you shouldn't rely so heavily on previous play from a person, as PEG proved, someone can go straightly against their meta at any time.
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:26 am

Post by Mane »

Though I hate to say it, I think that the lurking strategy D3 was a good move by the scum. Town had been so scummy that it would lynch each other with perfectly valid cases without the scum even needing to push it. I for one would have needed at least 3 votes at the end of D2 to cover the people I thought needed to be lynched.


Jultub's indecisiveness towards the PEG lynch looked very sincere, and I pretty much cleared him after PEG flipped town.


People really need to stop unvoting scummy people just because they get replaced. (and people really need to stop getting replaced)
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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:14 am

Post by EmpTyger »

Mane:
Don’t hold back from saying it: the lurking strategy D3 was a *great* move by the mafia. Mafia are supposed to take advantage of town misplays, and if the town is going to so harmfully lurk that the mafia can get away with it, there is absolutely no reason why the mafia shouldn’t so lurk themselves.
Mane wrote:Jultub's indecisiveness towards the PEG lynch looked very sincere, and I pretty much cleared him after PEG flipped town.
Future trick: being against a townsperson’s lynch only “counts” if they’re also *for* someone else’s lynch. If they’re just defending a townsperson but not trying to find anyone else to lynch- that’s not helpful.
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:10 am

Post by Mane »

He wasn't really defending him either. He just seemed like he sincerely didn't know which side to choose. Which I couldn't see mafia doing on a town. Guess he fooled me good. Thanks for the advice though.
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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:21 am

Post by jultub »

Just one question:

Is it ok to do an evil laughter for winning, or should I just be depressed with town killing themselves off so easily? I really wasn't expecting to win this, but I was hoping to learn more. (Here comes another question) What did I do wrong apart from a lack of participation? I haven't had that much time to invest in the game, so I couldn't have done that differently.
My space key is a little broken. Don't be surprised if I put some weird words together, sometimes I simply don't get a space :/
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:58 am

Post by RestFermata »

Wanna know something? Everyone suspected me for not justifying my switch from zoke to TC (Zid) well enough. The problem was that I had a gut feeling (which was wrong, incidentally) that if zoke weren't scum, he might be cop because of this comment:
zoke wrote:I think things will come more clear in time.
It was a small and mostly unfounded suspicion, but it kept coming back to haunt me. In the end I felt I should switch to Zid and that was definitely scrutinized a lot. I still didn't want to reveal the real reason even under pressure because of the possibility that it might be true.
"Time forks endlessly toward innumerable futures. In one of them I am your enemy." —Jorge Luis Borges
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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:06 pm

Post by Jahudo »

jultub wrote:Just one question:

Is it ok to do an evil laughter for winning, or should I just be depressed with town killing themselves off so easily? I really wasn't expecting to win this, but I was hoping to learn more. (Here comes another question) What did I do wrong apart from a lack of participation? I haven't had that much time to invest in the game, so I couldn't have done that differently.
Muahahahahaha. I thought you did fine in this situation but other games can have many players that will not let anyone stay on the sidelines without scrutiny. I guess you could've bussed stormer more because Adel made that wagon a subject of focus.

Question to Mane, Emp and Adel: If jultub or I had fake-claimed day 3 would you have been initially more inclined to believe it or not? What if instead of claiming a guilty person we only claimed innocents, like Adel night 2 and someone already dead for night 1?
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Post Post #700 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:32 am

Post by Mane »

jultub wrote:Just one question:

Is it ok to do an evil laughter for winning, or should I just be depressed with town killing themselves off so easily? I really wasn't expecting to win this, but I was hoping to learn more. (Here comes another question) What did I do wrong apart from a lack of participation? I haven't had that much time to invest in the game, so I couldn't have done that differently.
Look at EmpTyger's posts at the end of D2. In a game with a strong town, you wouldn't have gotten away with the fencesitting and passive playstyle.

Jahudo wrote:Question to Mane, Emp and Adel: If jultub or I had fake-claimed day 3 would you have been initially more inclined to believe it or not? What if instead of claiming a guilty person we only claimed innocents, like Adel night 2 and someone already dead for night 1?
If you, Jahudo, had claimed a innocent result on Adel, you would have been pretty dead after Adel voted you. Also, if you had claimed cop, you couldn't have lurked like you did.
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Post Post #701 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:52 am

Post by jultub »

My fencesitting and passiv playstyle was partially decided before the game started, and partially came from me simply not having the time to do a reread and look for scummy stuff in other people's posts. The descision of not being so active was not as much made because I thought I could win with it, but to confuse anyone deciding to take a look at my previous games.
My space key is a little broken. Don't be surprised if I put some weird words together, sometimes I simply don't get a space :/
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Post Post #702 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:49 am

Post by EmpTyger »

I forgot to mention- I was completely expecting to be nightkilled N3. I put more weight in the mafia trying to discredit RF after PEG’s attacks against her, and thought that they’d prefer to off another IC.

Jahudo:
For claim believability: it really depends on what results you claimed, who claimed them, and the manner. With that many variables it’s hard for me to give you a definitive answer, sorry. (Which is why I didn’t understand why Adel was stating so categorically that a claim would be definitely good/bad for one side or the other.)



jultub:
It’s okay to laugh evilly. As mafia, you didn’t really do anything wrong. If you want to be pretending to be town and not playing well, and if the town isn’t playing well, well, it’s pretty easy to blend in with them. However…
My fencesitting and passiv playstyle was partially decided before the game started, and partially came from me simply not having the time to do a reread and look for scummy stuff in other people's posts. The descision of not being so active was not as much made because I thought I could win with it, but to confuse anyone deciding to take a look at my previous games.
Are you saying you decided to play antitown regardless of what role you got?
Because, let me warn you, you don’t know how lucky you are you did get a mafia role. Players are obligated to play to win; to not do so is not only bad sportsmanship, but it will get you banned.
You cannot play badly in game A to give yourself an advantage in game B.
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Post Post #703 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:49 am

Post by jultub »

Ah, well I chose a role.... Well I won't go into details on them, but yes, the role I chose was a little "not there". But it wasn't supposed to be this bad, and all the times I have alerted my absence, it has been real, and most of my lurking has been due to lack of time to participate
My space key is a little broken. Don't be surprised if I put some weird words together, sometimes I simply don't get a space :/
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Post Post #704 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:50 am

Post by jultub »

Oh, and choosing wouldn't really be the matter, as much as that I pretty much rolled a die and randomed a role. Though due to lack of participation I wouldn't really have turned out with much difference regardless of what number I got.
My space key is a little broken. Don't be surprised if I put some weird words together, sometimes I simply don't get a space :/
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Post Post #705 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:49 am

Post by Adel »

Jahudo wrote:Adel: If you thought Emp and I were partners, why did you switch your vote?
I was confident about you being scum, it was a matter of identifying who was scum with you so I could base my defense around what would convince the two remaining townies.

EmpT had such a hard-on for me, I figured that switching my vote to him would expose his alignment. I had a townie read on Mane and no read at all on jultub, so it was a matter of picking between jultub and EmpT, and I lacked the townie cred to pressure jultub.

Re: a possible fake-claim, I'm not sure. It would all depend upon the quality of your fakeclaim, and the timing of it.

I honestly feel that hammering PEG was the correct move. He had lurked through day 1 and day 2, and had a single-minded voting record that is almost invulnerable to voting analysis. If he was scum the chance to hammer him wouldn't have lasted very long, so I had to make a risky call.

EmpT's single-minded determination to work against me during day 3 was very counterproductive. Townie tunnel-vision invariably leads to a townie loss. I don't apologize for playing in a way he doesn't seem to understand... much of my day 3 behavior was a direct reaction to his relentless attacks against me.
jultub wrote:Well, I never really needed a signal for when I should log in, since that time was already set long ago ^^ And Adel seemed annoyingly arrogant throughout the game, seems to me that she never questions her own words. Maybe it works when you got something to go on. But considering that I did have time when I first joined the game, and had several personalities set up and chose which one I should take by the roll of a dice you shouldn't rely so heavily on previous play from a person, as PEG proved, someone can go straightly against their meta at any time.
PEG proving to be town in this game only proves that PEG was town in this game. Based off of the evidence I was looking at, I would make the same decision again. Mafia, as I play it, is a game of percentages. Killing PEG when he is playing like that is the correct decision
before
lynch or lose.

Some of you seem to be under the impression that I was lazy and didn't read the game before I hammered PEG. I did read the game, but not as carefully and as fully (taking notes, ect) as I often do. I spent quite a bit of time simply focused on PEG. Either I could determine that he was town, or that he was likely scum, and then I could base the rest of my analysis of this game off of that. Determining PEG's alignment was the key to figuring out the rest of the game. Once I concluded that he had a rather greater than average chance of being scum, I felt that I had to hammer him before his wagon disappeared.
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Post Post #706 (ISO) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:30 pm

Post by Adel »

btw, one of the most common complaints about ICs and the newbie game system is that as soon as the game is over, everyone disappears.

If any of you have any questions, feel free to ask, and I'll be more than happy to answer to the best of my ability.
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Post Post #707 (ISO) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:05 pm

Post by stormer »

EmpTyger wrote:The lesson here is that innocents can’t play worse than mafia and expect to win. Because there is no way for the town to pick out who is guilty and who is innocent. This is, in a nutshell, why lurking is bad. jultub’s lurking was atrocious, but when SL and PEG were doing the same thing or worse, how could jultub’s alignment be discovered? (The disgusting replacement rate only made it worse. 20 players for a 9 role game?!)



stormer:
Why did you request replacement?
Weel, firstly i didn't have time and secondly, i knew i was screwed and as jultub said i got no brains
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Post Post #708 (ISO) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:39 pm

Post by jultub »

sry about that stormer, I overreacted a little bit (perhaps more than a little), it wasn't an easy situation you was in either :/ better luck next time!
My space key is a little broken. Don't be surprised if I put some weird words together, sometimes I simply don't get a space :/
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Post Post #709 (ISO) » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:27 am

Post by Vel-Rahn Koon »

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