Micro 1058: Is This Thing Loaded? -- Game Over!

[Ph0enix]

yoink

[Alexcellent]

Yeah I don't get the Galron or Kuti TRs. TBH Kuti comes off as quite fluffy and the fact that they wanted conversation whist not acknowledging the Dunnstral/Bambi stuff pinged me as off.
BUT them questioning GL's TR is a point in their favour.

[Alexcellent]

Gut tells me that the GL/Phoenix stuff is maybe TvT but I dislike 90 a fair bit.

Not sure that's enough justification to place a vote tbh.


It appears we're out or RVS by now, so...

UNVOTE:

I'm not sure if this is AI or just playstyle friction but I strongly, strongly dislike this unvote, and the motivation in it as well as the comment preceding. Voting is always better than not voting. While reasoning for scumreads is obviously good, I don't like the implication here that you need to meet a certain standard of evidence/justification for a vote. Game is in a low info state and the best way to create info is to vote, create wagons, force people into taking stances. Sitting around not voting anyone and dismissing potentially good leads keeps the game in a low-info state. And what do you think the point of RVS is if you're just going to unvote once "we're out" of it and go nowhere with it afterwards?

I see in 75 you don't seem to be scumreading Dunnstral, so what is the point of your comment on his vote? Why are you dismissing an attempt to pressure another player? If you aren't suspicious of Dunn's motivations then commenting like this on his vote feels to me like you're more interested in sounding reasonable or fair than you are in finding and pressuring scum.

I typically follow with this playstyle of voting someone > not voting someone. But I think it's hard to SR an early unvote because I've seen so many cases of people just not having the same playstyle as me. Like maybe it is passive of Phoenix but I don't think it's necessarily scummy. I've played some games (recently too) with town players who just nurse their vote forever, which I don't agree with but eh.

I think Alexcellent and Galron are town

I am going to wait for Frog to respond to Dunn before I fully weigh in on that case, but I will say I think Dunn's point about Frog's focus being more narrow in his scum games than the town games is the more compelling argument to me.

however I want to
VOTE: Ph0enix

very much giving me vibes/profiile of scum trying to get their foothold in the game by asking basic questions and making safe/non-controversial comments, while not actually taking any

real

initiative to pursue reads or sort players. 65 is another example in addition to what I said about 60, a non-comment comment, "I don't like meta but I agree with your meta finding", that does not strike me as a comment that comes from a real intention to solve, and it also pushes me away from a Frogster vote currently because it's exactly how I'd expect scum to gently encourage a TvT.

Yeahhhh I dislike this though. I think this rubs me the wrong way because it's a scum read that I don't really agree with framed with town reads that I also don't agree with or at least understand. Maybe I'm paranoid of being pocketed but idk, I kind of got minor town vibes from Phoenix's interactions so this comes off as either a very weak scumread or a disingenuous one.

[GuiltyLion]

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

you didn't feel defensive to me and I liked the second question in 39

[Alexcellent]

I'm catching up but yeaaaa Dunn is town. This doesn't feel fake able.

Hard, hard disagree on that one. I don't understand why everyone is jumping to conclusions that it doesn't feel fakeable. As I said in a previous post, I get that Town players will naturally be more willing to push the conservation forward and so doing all this digging may be a slight TR, hence why I put Dunn as a possible slight TR in said post. However, to think that it's strongly Town indicative, let alone not fakeable, I can't get behind. Why would it not be fakeable? Why would Scum not spend some time digging if it apparently means a safe TR from some of the other players?

It IS fakeable but like... it's unlikely, IMO. I normally don't see scum digging through other people's games to find arguments they can make up this early in the game. It's just extremely pro-active and looks a lot like town that's noticed something rather than scum trying to push an agenda. Like it doesn't at all confirm Dunnstral as town obvs but it's townier than anything else that's been said or done in this game so far. If Dunnstral is actually scum then fair play to them, that's a boss move.

[Alexcellent]

I don't get the Dunn x frog thing tbh.

As in you don't get why they're voting each other or you disagree with them?

[Alexcellent]

@Bambi, what do you think of Dunnstral's push on Frogster?

[GuiltyLion]

I see no point leaving a vote that was made in the first post of the game with no reasoning behind it, now that there's enough content generated that votes are no longer without reason. Unvoting does not mean I'm "going nowhere with it".

but, it does mean exactly that though. My view is that your vote should always be on your strongest scumread (or on a wagon you support) - voting nobody accomplishes absolutely nothing. Unvoting and not voting somebody new is basically just signaling "I have no one I believe might be scum right now" which is a completely non-game-advancing position to have

This part I can't get behind. These two statements contradict one another. If I'm the one that's asking basic questions and making comments while not taking initiative to sort players, what's Galron been doing? How is he Town in your eyes based on current information, when his posts so far offer no real substance imo. (I'm not talking about Alex here, cause I think his posts have provided enough thus far given the limited information he's working with, as the rest of us.) It appears my asking questions and making comments is the reason you are SR-ing me while TR-ing Galron, cause that's the main difference between their posts and mine. Which wouldn't make sense - surely asking basic questions is better than nothing.

This is a terrible reply, to compare yourself to Galron in this way. Are you implying that I should be reading you two the same? Why? I have played several games with Galron scum and Galron town, to the point where I have a feel of how he posts as scum and how he posts as town, and his early game so far reminds me of games I've played with him as town.

I disagree that "asking questions" is townie or intrinsically better than doing nothing. Consider that scum's goal and purpose is to

appear town

, and the fundamental crux of the vibe I dislike from you is that you are

trying to appear

town and useful. I'm not scumreading you for lack of doing anything, I'm scumreading you for a lack of actual purpose behind your posts that would help you sort players.

that he's trying to make something out of nothing and start a wagon on me

do you think this is something that town!GL does not do?

[GuiltyLion]

I typically follow with this playstyle of voting someone > not voting someone. But I think it's hard to SR an early unvote because I've seen so many cases of people just not having the same playstyle as me. Like maybe it is passive of Phoenix but I don't think it's necessarily scummy. I've played some games (recently too) with town players who just nurse their vote forever, which I don't agree with but eh.

to be frank, even if he's town and playing passive, it's anti-town behavior that creates an easier environment for scum and so it should be scrutinized regardless. if he's town I trust myself to sort that out over time

why do you think his interactions with your or his post 98 is townie? That post kinda reeks of defensive scum to me. His reflexive scumread back on me feels more like it's meant to discredit my argument than a real belief that I'm scum - I don't buy that he genuinely thinks I am more likely/only going to "scumread" him if I were scum

Yeahhhh I dislike this though. I think this rubs me the wrong way because it's a scum read that I don't really agree with framed with town reads that I also don't agree with or at least understand. Maybe I'm paranoid of being pocketed but idk, I kind of got minor town vibes from Phoenix's interactions so this comes off as either a very weak scumread or a disingenuous one.

just cause you don't understand or agree with my townreads doesn't mean they aren't genuine. Don't get me wrong, I get why people won't immediately follow why I townread those players, but I don't really feel a need atm to dive deep on why I have them or convince people until someone steps up to actively disagree and scumreads those players. I feel you on kuti being fluffy and it's not a bad point that they should have expressed more of an opinion on some of the actual #content, but my vibe is they're excited to play and they have nothing to hide

[GuiltyLion]

why do you think his interactions with your or his post 98 is townie? That post kinda reeks of defensive scum to me. His reflexive scumread back on me feels more like it's meant to discredit my argument than a real belief that I'm scum - I don't buy that he genuinely thinks I am more likely/only going to "scumread" him if I were scum

oh and also the "why me?" and how he brings Galron into the mix. Like he makes assumptions about why I'm townreading Galron and explicitly says Galron offers no information to him - implying Galron should not be TR and/or I should also be scumreading Galron if I'm scumreading him? - but then ultimately arrives at a Galron TR by the end of the post, which would make his earlier point obsolete.

And I get that Galron hadn't posted 92 when I expressed my TR, but still a "why aren't you also finding this player scummy, who I am townreading btw" thought process feels manufactured to me.

[GuiltyLion]

Hard, hard disagree on that one. I don't understand why everyone is jumping to conclusions that it doesn't feel fakeable. As I said in a previous post, I get that Town players will naturally be more willing to push the conservation forward and so doing all this digging may be a slight TR, hence why I put Dunn as a possible slight TR in said post. However, to think that it's strongly Town indicative, let alone not fakeable, I can't get behind. Why would it not be fakeable? Why would Scum not spend some time digging if it apparently means a safe TR from some of the other players?

or like, what's the point of this? "I TR Dunn for it, but let's not

hard

TR him for it"??

Phoenix, I'll give you a genuine reach out here in case I am wrong so far, it's this kinda thing that makes me scumread you. alignments aren't a spectrum they're a binary, so while I can understand varying degrees of confidence in reads I don't vibe with expressing them in this super non-committal tentative form. End of the day, either Dunn's town or he's not, and if you think town!Dunn is more likely, there's no point to dinging him when other people also think he's town. It comes across as trying to break up a town bloc and trying to make him generally less townread by everybody.

And if you

don't

think town!Dunn is more likely, then you wouldn't be saying he's a "possible slight TR", cause he's not.

ultimately I just don't even understand what's the value of a "possible slight TR", like if your point here is "don't bet the game on town Dunn", I don't think anyone is really doing that and I don't immediately understand what your goal is in posting that.

[Alexcellent]

I typically follow with this playstyle of voting someone > not voting someone. But I think it's hard to SR an early unvote because I've seen so many cases of people just not having the same playstyle as me. Like maybe it is passive of Phoenix but I don't think it's necessarily scummy. I've played some games (recently too) with town players who just nurse their vote forever, which I don't agree with but eh.

to be frank, even if he's town and playing passive, it's anti-town behavior that creates an easier environment for scum and so it should be scrutinized regardless. if he's town I trust myself to sort that out over time

why do you think his interactions with your or his post 98 is townie? That post kinda reeks of defensive scum to me. His reflexive scumread back on me feels more like it's meant to discredit my argument than a real belief that I'm scum - I don't buy that he genuinely thinks I am more likely/only going to "scumread" him if I were scum

Yeahhhh I dislike this though. I think this rubs me the wrong way because it's a scum read that I don't really agree with framed with town reads that I also don't agree with or at least understand. Maybe I'm paranoid of being pocketed but idk, I kind of got minor town vibes from Phoenix's interactions so this comes off as either a very weak scumread or a disingenuous one.

just cause you don't understand or agree with my townreads doesn't mean they aren't genuine. Don't get me wrong, I get why people won't immediately follow why I townread those players, but I don't really feel a need atm to dive deep on why I have them or convince people until someone steps up to actively disagree and scumreads those players. I feel you on kuti being fluffy and it's not a bad point that they should have expressed more of an opinion on some of the actual #content, but my vibe is they're excited to play and they have nothing to hide

Mainly his interactions have kind of felt town, but also when I pointed out a meta scum read on Bambi he took the time to go looking for the post to get clarification on it, which is something I don't really think scum does? Maybe I'm used to lazy scum but it's hard for me to view scum going out of their way to do that and not push an agenda off of it or something.

I don't really get a super defensiveness vibe from 98 but upon saying that I don't reeeeeally like the vote back on you. The main thing in there that I dislike is his disagreement about the Dunnstral town reads but I'm not sure that's AI.

Fair enough on your TRs, I guess I feel better about the Galron read if you have meta with him. Do you think town Galron is likely to sheep your vote on Phoenix?
I don't agree with the Kuti TR but not enough to fight over it and them questioning it themselves is a feather in their cap.

P-Edit: actually I do dislike the whataboutism there so I see your point. But I was sort of following with his logic of the Galron TR at the end. I at the very least feel like Galron and you as a scum team are super unlikely.

[kutiplz]

Yeah I don't get the Galron or Kuti TRs. TBH Kuti comes off as quite fluffy and the fact that they wanted conversation whist not acknowledging the Dunnstral/Bambi stuff pinged me as off.
BUT them questioning GL's TR is a point in their favour.

I did acknowledge it I just couldn't understand the Dunn stuff but Bambi was fake derping.

I'm only fluff because it's early D1. I'm trying to get more engaged with the game.

[kutiplz]

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

you didn't feel defensive to me and I liked the second question in 39

Feels like a weak reason to tr me and kinda pockety but go off

[kutiplz]

I don't get the Dunn x frog thing tbh.

As in you don't get why they're voting each other or you disagree with them?

That was before I saw Dunn case. All I saw was then quibbling and was confused by it.

Now I get it

[kutiplz]

I will have a reads list soon. Currently at the bar

[kutiplz]

OK I'm rereading the game and I don't want to put out a half ass reads list because like there's barely any content that AI related.

I just feel like these group of people are giving me townie vibes:

Dunn ( I have explained)
Alex ( I like their push on me and other players, they have a solvey vibe)

Not great vibes
Ph0neix (their defense over my tr on Dunn made no sense)
GuiltyLion (feels like they are trying to pocket me, not good vibes)
Bambi (that fake derp slip)

Everyone else: null.

I would have expanded but like there's barely any content. I'm sorry if wrong.

[kutiplz]

It's just me all by myself.

Sadge.

I dunno how to adjust to ms games when I'm so used to 48/24 games but cest la vie.

[kutiplz]

I need yall to talk more or something.

[Bambi Jay]

Calling it fake derp for shading purposes is not appreciated but acknowledged for when I shoot you tonight Kuti.

[GuiltyLion]

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

you didn't feel defensive to me and I liked the second question in 39

Feels like a weak reason to tr me and kinda pockety but go off

all I said was I thought you were town, you asked me why and I gave you my reason, if you feel pocketed by that that's on you lol

also I have high standards for my scumgame so I wouldn't expect to be an easy townread for anybody just 5 pages into the game

[GuiltyLion]

although as I say that I realize it's perhaps hypocritical since I'm going around throwing out easy townreads 5 pages into the game

[GuiltyLion]

Do you think town Galron is likely to sheep your vote on Phoenix?

I don't think sheeping me there is particularly AI

the posts I thought were indicative from him were 77 and 79 - my memory of Galron's early game as scum is him being concerned with establishing rapport with players and keeping up appearances of probing/sorting, whereas here admitting that he doesn't feel he has anything useful to say or do feels honest and authentic in a way I think he'd be a bit too scared to post as scum

[Ph0enix]

Not great vibes
Ph0neix (their defense over my tr on Dunn made no sense)
GuiltyLion (feels like they are trying to pocket me, not good vibes)

In both these reads, you are not taking the whole exchange between me and GL yesterday into consideration. Why is that? Do you think nothing said there was AI?

[Ph0enix]

oh I think kuti is town too

Wait why

you didn't feel defensive to me and I liked the second question in 39

Feel defensive? What would she feel defensive about in the first place? As for the second question - eh? How is that AI in any way?