Open 83 - Polygamist Mafia (Game over!) before 628

[Gimbo]

KNIGHT42 / forbiddanlight
somestrangeflea / Gimbo
Chelseafan / chenhsi
Nameless / Firestarter

SpyreX
Harvey Pew
MafiaSSK
Adel

Adel: 1st, forget about the fact that I mentioned Newbie 540, I got my info. wrong and I apologize for even bringing it up, now let's move on.

regardless of any alignment questions, 8 players have already claimed, even if all 4 scums are among those who claimed, that means 4 town players also claimed.

Regardless of your personal beliefs, if at least 1/2 the town has claimed, how is it not anti-town in a way for the other half to refuse to claim? Keep in mind that this is only true if all 4 scums are among those that claimed, if only 2 or none are among those that claimed, that means that the majority of town has claimed and it is anti-town of you not to do so.

Moving on, I still don't think you explained how exactly it is BAD for town to have a massclaim on D1. You did say this in one posts (162)

As I allready said, it will make it harder for me to catch scum.

... so massclaiming makes it harder for YOU to catch scum...how about the rest of town? You are clearly not a town player. You call yourself a superior player and that's okay, I have no problem with that, but you certainly can't use that as the answer to questions that I ask you (refer to Post 162)

Let me ask you, assuming that I am scum, what exactly do I gain as a scum? Since there are no power roles, for scums, what difference does it make who the D1 lynch is since no matter what happens, 2 townies die on D1?

In addition, you refuse to answer my hypothetical question for you because you clearly said that you didn't want to 'help' me in this game, now say you did answer this question, how does that help/harm me in any way? If I am scum, would I use the same strategies that you propose? If I am town, then why would I need the information?

On the other hand, it is clear why you wouldn't want to answer the question. If you are scum and you answer the question, then you might have to act in a completely different way that the answer you give to the question. By answering the question, if you are scum, it creates an additional obstacle for you during D1 and makes it easier for you to make a mistake. If you were town, I don't see why you would not want to answer this question as the method of play won't be relevant to you in this game.
---

Nameless: In your latest posts, you regurgitated what everyone has already said about Knight. In addition, you made it clear that you only claimed your partner because everyone else did and most likely because of the FoS from forbid.

In addition you said

Not that there's much point now that half the players have already claimed

... do you mean that if 1/2 the town didn't claim already, there would've been some sort of point in you not revealing your lover? How is that so? Enlighten me please.

[KNIGHT42]

I still think my play would work but at this point with my identity revealed, plus nobody understands the logic... fuck it.

By the way Gimbo I read through Spyrex and Adel's reactions. While Adel didn't really catch me I was intrigued by Spyrex's reaction to a mass claim. As flimsy an idea it is on the first day, he openly condemned it. Something else... I forgot and I'm too lazy to go look so for the time being [/b] Vote: Spyrex

[KNIGHT42]

Fuck im tired and i fucked that up fuck fuck fuck fuck

Vote: Spyrex

[Gimbo]

So with all this, I'll say that my partner (who is also my lover )

is

in favour of a claim. But I will leave it up to them to make the claim

Ok I got this,

Harvey Pew / Mafia SSK

and the grand finale, the anti-claimers, Ladies and Gents, may I present

SpyreX / Adel ... my prophecy has come true...

Scumdar (1-5):

KNIGHT42 / forbiddanlight 2
somestrangeflea / Gimbo

not applicable

Chelseafan / chenhsi 1
Nameless / Firestarter 3
Harvey / MafiaSSK 2
SpyreX / Adel 4

[Adel]

The point behind not massclaiming on day 1 was to take advantage of possible scum discordination. They undoubtable broke into two groups in the pregame. My hope was (and my lover followed my lead) to try to avoid a massclaim during day 1. The idea was to try to engineer some events that would encourage scum to improvise, and it would be possible for one scum to either forget (or get replaced by an underinformed replacement) or change his mind as to who he should pretend to be lovers with from his scum group. By publically claiming during day 1 it locks all players into their claimed roles, and prevents scum from trying to be too craft for their own good.

In general terms a massclaim has neither a net positive or net negative effect for the players of this setup. The widespread and mistaken belief in the first run of this game was that it was a good idea, and I expected at least one scum player (seeing that there was no downside for them) to try to be a loud supporter of a massclaim in an attempt to appear as protown as possible.

(btw, SSF what do you think of you partner puting so much energy into identifying who is a lover with whom? Rolefishing much?)

Towies can't get confused as to who their partner is... they aren't going to start to think that it would be to their advantage to pretend to be a lover with someone else. Day 2 is when the real detective work is able to take place (see my posts in Open 79).

Gimbo is scum and is intimidated by me. He read my work in open 79 as well as one gambit I pulled off against MoS. If I were scum in this game I would try to get Adel lynched during Day 1.

[Adel]

so a bad memory is compounded by bad logic. Gimbo's entire post is enough of a mess, I'll just take a look at a part:

Regardless of your personal beliefs, if at least 1/2 the town has claimed, how is it not anti-town in a way for the other half to refuse to claim? Keep in mind that this is only true if all 4 scums are among those that claimed, if only 2 or none are among those that claimed, that means that the majority of town has claimed and it is anti-town of you not to do so.

If at least 1/2 of the town has claimed: how would I know if half of the town has claimed or not? The only players whose alignment I can really know is muine and my lover, but I am pretty sure that you and SSF are scum and you claimed. So that means that perhaps as much as 50% of the town has claimed.

But all of that is not relevent. Why should the actions of six other players (even if all six of them were town) determine what I should do? It isn't as if I was refusing to claim my lover in the face of a town consensus (and I share Plato's doubts of the wisdom of majority rule) what I saw happen in this game was a bunch of people claim

before

there was a consensus as to if we should claim or not.

Why are you eager to paint me as being anti-town? You are the one who forced your decision to claim upon the rest of the town before there was widespread agreement.

(btw, anti-town does not = scum, there are many reason why a player may act or seem to act in a way that at first appears to be anti-town)

Also, out of your last 10 games as town, how many have you won?

[chenhsi]

May I assume that he is Firestarter than, because he hasn't posted for 2 days and is the least active among those who have not claimed yet?

Connectivity will be low for the next 2 days guys, Ill try to get on at some point during this time.

Well done Columbo...

Yes, I did see that, but I was wondering if Harvey had.

[SpyreX]

I like how in all of this hulaballoo my statements about this plan being a good scum setup haven't been commented on, at all.

If Gimbo IS town, we will lose this game. Call me a prophet, for I have deemed it so.

I guess me and my partner have been deduced by almost every other town pair capitulating to this.

Now, on top of everything else, Gimbo is AGAIN saying we're scum for not claiming which, of course, we have said we weren't going to do since the beginning.

Adel has her own reasons for thinking Gimbo is scum (which I agree with).

This coupled from my own set of reasons makes me feel very, very confident in my vote.

Of course, like I said, after this gambit if Gimbo IS town he has, unquestionably, lost the game for us. So, there we are.

Normally at this point I'd say it would take someone actually claiming scum to make me change my mind, but...we've already done that.

[eldarad]

MafiaSSK has asked to be replaced. I'm looking for a replacement now.

[somestrangeflea]

SSF is accusing you of trying to expose who are lovers together, despite his partner doing that repeatedly as well as trying to get everyone to claim.

SSF what do you think of you partner puting so much energy into identifying who is a lover with whom? Rolefishing much?

I'm going to use the "It's not fishing if it's not subtle" argument here. Gimbo is outright requesting the information, whereas chenhsi was somewhat more subtle, by assuming and being far less demanding in order to coax the information out...

[Nameless]

Nameless: In your latest posts, you regurgitated what everyone has already said about Knight.

I only made one sentence (in one post) stating that I agreed with what had been pointed out, as I wished to ask Knight a question related to it. As for Knight's response ... he sounds like a newbie who doesn't really know what he's doing, but (especially the last post) could be an exaggerated act by the mafia. So it wasn't really helpful at all.

In addition, you made it clear that you only claimed your partner because everyone else did and most likely because of the FoS from forbid.In addition you said

Not that there's much point now that half the players have already claimed

... do you mean that if 1/2 the town didn't claim already, there would've been some sort of point in you not revealing your lover? How is that so? Enlighten me please.

I was, and still am, supportive of an early D1 massclaim to help simplify the game. The reason I didn't claim initially was because other players believed there was an advantage not to, and to jump in and start claiming would irreversibly remove that advantage were I wrong; and to a lesser extent it would be, you know, kind of rude when the decision was still up in the air. The reason I claimed when I did was because at the point where half the town had claimed, most of the advantage from nobody doing so would be lost, so regardless of other player's initial plans the other half of the town might as well claim to finish simplifying things.

I don't believe the advantage from avoiding claiming is as great as the advantage from the claiming, but I was willing to give other players the benefit of the doubt until a consensus was reached.

If you were town, I don't see why you would not want to answer this question as the method of play won't be relevant to you in this game.

Hey I've got an even better idea let's

not

publicly discuss strategy for the mafia because - gasp - it will only give the mafia ideas and probably reveal what the town expects of them.

[Chelseafan]

I say that at minimum, there are 2 scums below:

...
Harvey Pew
...

Now that is purely unfair. To state simply that those who haven't claimed are scum is entirely specious. I have said I am in favour of a claim but, unlike your unilateral action, I have left it to my partner to decide if he agrees with me and so make the claim himself. It is unfortunate that my partner (and some others) have taken a low profile/forgotten about the game/been kidnapped by aliens/died/whatever, but to decide this makes us scum is entirely unfounded.

May I assume that he is Firestarter than, because he hasn't posted for 2 days and is the least active among those who have not claimed yet?

Hmm. I think that's fishing...

Vote: chensi

Fishing as opposed to a direct question?

I'm going to use the "It's not fishing if it's not subtle" argument here. Gimbo is outright requesting the information, whereas chenhsi was somewhat more subtle, by assuming and being far less demanding in order to coax the information out...

I'd hardly call what chenhsi said subtle, you would? "fishing is not fishing if it's not subtle", thus it wasn't fishing then as far as I'm concerned.


As for Gimbo saying there's at least 2 scum in the unclaimed players...well that's quite an assumption to make.

[forbiddanlight]

Knight,

vote Gimbo

. This reminds me far too much of another game I played elsewhere. They didn't claim scum, but they did try to use a similar WIFOM argument and coasted to the end on it, resulting in a scum win. I'd rather lynch Gimbo now. And as they say, LAL. If he's town, he's lying, if he's scum, we need to lynch him anyway.

[Gimbo]

I'm really confused as to what the hell Gimbo is trying to do, but it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Ok forbid, so be4, you were interested in finding out how what I said will play out, but now that the tide's turning on me, you vote for me.

Of course as long as I am alive, whatever I say has minimum credibility, right now, I have 2 couples on me, Adel/SpyreX and forbid/Knight.

After I die, it should be much clearer what's going on.

SpyreX: I don't understand your logic that if I am town, town's already lost. The onlu way this is true is if you are dead set that me and Flea will be killed today and since you and Adel are painted as the perfect townies, you will of course cast doubt on someone else tomorrow and save your own behinds.

Harvey: To me it seemed more like you were waiting for your fellow scum-buds and see if they claim, if they do, then you also claim. I recall that you never did claim until chenhsi basically fished your lover out of your post. It seems like there's exactly 4 player dead set on not claiming and for some reason, I don't think that's a coincidence.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok forbid, so be4, you were interested in finding out how what I said will play out, but now that the tide's turning on me, you vote for me. Wink

Actually, it's more that I was tired yesterday. I'm well rested today and can see this day can only have one conclusion. You claimed scum, so you need to be lynched. We'll see what happens with that. But KNIGHT, I need you to vote Gimbo.

[Gimbo]

^ that's a good answer!, thank you.

[Harvey Pew]

Harvey: To me it seemed more like you were waiting for your fellow scum-buds and see if they claim, if they do, then you also claim. I recall that you never did claim until chenhsi basically fished your lover out of your post. It seems like there's exactly 4 player dead set on not claiming and for some reason, I don't think that's a coincidence.

The problem is the split between claiming on D1 or D2. Looking at O76 and in pre-game discussion me and my partner though early claiming would be helpful. But in this game there was a strong core of people, who I think may be town, who wanted to leave claiming to D2. So, as I said, rather than just deciding to ignore their argument I said, in forum, that I was willing to claim but that my partner could consider the vercacity of not claiming and make the decision. I was not going to railroad my partner into claiming.

I was fully aware that I kind of gave my partner away - except that chenhsi guessed the

wrong

one of the quieter players. Currently I have no lover ;( - until a replacement turns up.

[KNIGHT42]

actually, I say we take out spyrex. i personally think there's a good chance he's mafia, and even if he isn't, gimbo surely will be.

well not surely but there's a pretty good chance.

[Adel]

actually, I say we take out spyrex. i personally think there's a good chance he's mafia, and even if he isn't, gimbo surely will be.

well not surely but there's a pretty good chance.

Who do you think spyrex's lover is?

(please, nobody else answer this for him)

[Gimbo]

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

That's how sure I am. If some crazy shtick happens and we are BOTH town (unlikely), then I'll go away losing this game but learning a valuable lesson.

Knight you are finally making sense, thnx.

[Adel]

@Gimbo: did you see post 180?

[SpyreX]

SpyreX: I don't understand your logic that if I am town, town's already lost. The onlu way this is true is if you are dead set that me and Flea will be killed today and since you and Adel are painted as the perfect townies, you will of course cast doubt on someone else tomorrow and save your own behinds.

Harvey: To me it seemed more like you were waiting for your fellow scum-buds and see if they claim, if they do, then you also claim. I recall that you never did claim until chenhsi basically fished your lover out of your post.

It seems like there's exactly 4 player dead set on not claiming and for some reason, I don't think that's a coincidence.

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

That's how sure I am. If some crazy shtick happens and we are BOTH town (unlikely),

then I'll go away losing this game

but learning a valuable lesson.

And you've got your failbot already in the shape of Knight/Forbid if they are also town. Not like it'll be hard to do, regardless.

So, in case you can't see it; by claiming scum and having US be the ones to attack you for it you have setup back-to-back lynches of us and you in some fashion. IF we are all town we lose the game. We are town, therefore IF YOU ARE TOWN we lose the game period.

[Chelseafan]

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

That's how sure I am. If some crazy shtick happens and we are BOTH town (unlikely), then I'll go away losing this game but learning a valuable lesson.

Knight you are finally making sense, thnx.

While this may be fine to you, I'd prefer to win the game that you making a mistake but learning a lesson

[forbiddanlight]

And you've got your failbot already in the shape of Knight/Forbid if they are also town. Not like it'll be hard to do, regardless.

I don't understand. What's this supposed to mean?

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

How about we do it the other way around. Adel and Spyrex didn't claim scum. However, since Knight is set on voting Spyrex, and I'll be the odd one on the gimbo wagon if this keeps up, meaning we get no info on the offchance gimbo IS town,

unvote

. I refuse to vote spyrex because I don't feel he's scum.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP:

unvote