I refute it by showing how another possibility is equally likely. Well, actually, if we go by the proper definition, that's not refuting, okay. More like discrediting. Ah well. I'm not much good with English.
I apologize for being out longer than I thought I would last night, and thusly unable to do my reread with thoughts. I would do it today but I'm also going to be out til later tonight. However, I do know when I'll be back and it'll leave time for a good look at things. I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to delay or something, but this weekend hasn't been very free due to real life (understandable, I assume, for people who live in America, given the 4th of July thing). So, tonight for certain I'll return with a good post about my thoughts after a reread. I apologize for the absences .
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
This post brought to you by the power of caffiene and techno:
Iron Man: Mason. I'm not even sure if his posts need analyzing. If people really want I'll EBWOP one in, but for now, seems like wasted effort.
roflcopter: See above.
Ok, now that we have the roles out of the way:
armix: Starts by approving N0 vig. Further discussion of the vig kill, but names it irrelevant. Then accuses Iron Man of vig fishing. Dismisses the vig/kneecap comment as not understanding N0 vig logic. Questions roflcopter's assertion that Iron Man is town. States in response to roflcopter's accusation that armix is scummy that there are 3 scenarios, stupid cop claim, scum protection of scum buddy or preparing an I told you so, or townie who looks like scum doing the previous. Explains N0 vig logic, votes roflcopter, defending himself against that rolefishing claim because no cop would be stupid enough to out himself post 2, so it had to be a meta read or total bullshit, which it is evidently the latter. Says rofl's question was almost protown, but off enough to be bad, and that iron man's self fufilling prophecy point had credence. Points out username hasn't been pushing strife's lynch, just answered rofl's question saying strife is scummer. Outright refusal to Lowell's stance that the masons should out themselves. Elaborates, stating with no doc, the masons outing themselves is suicidal with an SK and mafia, and the fact that it helps them by narrowing the pool of power roles, or gives them confirmeds to kill. Says assuming there is no doc is the best play. Unvotes, telling rofl there was no need to out iron man. Answers rofl's claim that he rolefished Iron's mason claim out by stating that there was a lot of town pushing the wagon and that rofl left a breadcrumb to it on his own. Fake mason claim is a crackpot theory. Responds to SC with the fact that rofl claimed mason. FoS' vamp for the armix is scummy post/vote. Asks Vamp why rofl's side is relevant. Opposes Lowell's view on the mason reveal, saying it does hurt town because if gives scum info. Armix agrees with korts about forbiddan's post, and votes her. Asks why rofl is less inclined to lynch SC for my post, due to bussing logic. Says rofl is OMGUSing him from that earlier question. States no one believes rofl's rolefishing claim. States no one has commented on armix "poisoning the well", stating that he has a valid point about how forbiddanlight being scum doesn't clear SC, whereas rofl doesn't think armix made a valid point. In response to korts, states that rofl was dumb for listening to lowell then. Argues that while it invalidates the wagon to claim point, it doesn't invalidate rofl's rolefishing claim being bogus. States forbiddan's claim doesn't count. Counters Greasy saying rofl should have waited til he was closer to lynch and should not have revealed his partner for true town benefit. Intuition isn't valid reasoning, and advises no claims til L-2. Explains what using intuition is. States that it doesn't matter whether you have half or more votes in a claim, you should only claim when you reach a certain number of votes as dictated by some equation. Further clarifies the math. FoS' Greasy and Sun Tzu, Greasy for dodging questions and Sun Tzu agreeing with Korts' last post. Tells Lowell the mason outing only works in mini games with few town power roles and one mafia group, not a large game with 2 killing groups. States that username was right in voting greasy, because not answering was scummy, but he should have done it when he reiterated the question, not waited til later. Takes issue with the question lacking a neither option, would be on greasy's side if he hadn't stalled in answering. Claims that not offering a neither option creates bias, states vibes aren't logic, and will tell Lowell to show his work if he does any more unexplained alignment calls. Puts a stop to the vig discussion. "but for now no one should bring up the subject any more as it will give away who can't be the vig if people agree/disagree. " Votes Korts for rolefishing, agreeing with username, thinks forbiddan is just newbie wagon bait in general. Feels a connection between SC and Korts, could vote for SC given the shameless bandwagonning. SC defending Korts for the connection. States the he doesn't feel forbiddanlight is scum, which is why that connection means less. States vamp should be vigged, not lynched. Polarizing lynches have more info. Says the quote about being against the mason claim is relevant to Lowell's towniness later on. Then states that reading it it looked like rofl claimed early in response to the wagon on him, albeit early, and states Korts case is nothing but OMGUS and what Korts himself sees as minor scumminess. Reiterates that a vamp vig is good, says he responded to every point on the case, and then states he knew about Lowell's call to claim, but didn't assume this was why rofl claimed, because of the growing wagon and it was one of the dumbest ideas ever. States he already addressed the connection point because he feels forbiddan is town, and plus, why should a connection matter if Korts is town? Asks why he would attack someone he thinks is town based on one point, whereas SC has been on every bandwagon so far...except Korts. Questions where it says armix says only SC defends Korts? Then says Korts is misrepresenting him, quoting Korts where he says "Since your point was only that SC believed me ". Leans Korts because he's not sure if SC always plays like this. Says from what he's seen it is not Korts normal.
strife220: Puts the second vote on Iron Man as a D1 wagon and also because of the comment on the vig with the doctor and kneecapping. Also states kill discussion is irrelevant. Sarcastic comment about roflcopter's case and deciding lynches page 1. States that rofl's trap was terrible, unvotes (presumably due to mason claim). States scum fake claim is too risky on the grounds that the real masons would come out and we'd have two scum lynched off the bat. States he's 2/3 done with an essay on dcorbe. Explains he posted that in the wrong game. Wants rofl to elaborate on why forbiddan's post makes him less inclined to lynch SC. Asks for further elaboration. Votes forbiddan for her "scummy post", asking rofl why he wouldn't outright vote her. Asks Lowell about a meta on the mason outing, thinks that forbiddan's wagon is fine, but Vamp is scummier and thusly votes him. Thinks GS might have been lashing out as scum, or maybe just has a bad attitude, sees the whole GS/username debate as irrelevant. Wonders where Lowell gets pro town vibes from forbiddan from, being his number 2 suspect at the time. States that forbiddan is right there are too many town vibes, says scum have more motivation to say whose town, and this is the opposite of scum hunting. Corrects armix stating that forbiddan's wagon doesn't exist anymore, it's on vamp now. Wants Korts to back up his statement, says it doesn't feel natural. Wants to see the case on armix if Korts is confident in his vote. Wants to see Vamp vigged, unvotes, decides to closer read on Korts.
Vamparific: Finds armix scummier in answer to roflcopter's question, votes armix for "trying to take control of the game". Doesn't want to be on rofl's side, unvotes. Votes forbiddan with an "I agree" post. "Lol I keep screwing myself over". Unvotes. Says he doesn't want to be replaced...and nothing else. "Oh, I got lotsa votes, lol"
Korts: Opens by voting roflcopter for trying to force tunnel vision. Also salutes the killer of Killa Seven. Then states in response to roflcopter that he's "always right EVENTUALLY", and that tunnel vision is bad for the town. Claims the harm of rofl's forcing the armix/strife debate on us is that if someone finds someone else scummier the debate still ends up running along those lines and the case might be ignored. Refuses to answer rofl's question. Says forbiddanlight isn't reading before she writes, roflcopter's assertation that armix is rolefishing was related to the "why" on page one, not his defense. Sees possible reason in rofl's point, but thinks he's blowing it way out of proportion. Encourages both Greasy and forbiddan not to answer rofl's question if they don't think either is scummy. Says he's basically trying to balance rofl's push to answer the question by pushing against it so the people's voices are untarnished. Rather strongly rebukes rofl for misrepresenting him in the question debate, and states that there is a remote chance that this is a scum gambit, even if rofl is untouchable today. Explains why he objects to the false dichotomy of rofl's question. SC's post voting rofl looks scummy to him, states rofl was more accusing armix than defending himself. unvotes rofl, stating he was reckless though. Is inclined to vote for SC also, but doesn't. Votes Forbiddan for preemptively justifying wagon opportunism. "Just die". Argues armix's assertion that rofl was wagoned to claim. Hopes roflcopter points are edible. (apparently 3 will lead to a cookie). Doesn't want to count forbiddan votes. States that the fact that rofl responded to lowell nullifies armix's wagon to claim point which was to defend his supposed rolefishing. answers SC with the connection between rofl's claim and rofl being wrong (about rolefishing, I think). Asks vamp to answer username's question, but realizes he got the wrong person. Buys Sun Tzu's vote explanation, dislikes forbiddan's explanation for her FoS, saying she could have researched SC to see what triggered her intuition and didn't. Votes forbiddanlight, chastises lowell for lack of reasoning. Buys the last part of forbiddan's post concerning vamp, votes vamp, complains about his own vote hopping. Korts misinterprets armix's post and says that he revealed that he wasn't the vig. Denies rolefishing, saying he didn't ask anyone to claim, nor did he ask armix to confirm this, nor was any of this implied. Calls BS on the wagon forming on him. Realizes his post could hurt the town, said that he couldn't help but point out that armix was unhelpful. He reread and realizes armix never denied being the vig. He reiterates this, also saying he never assumes stupid scum. Responds to forbiddan's question saying that he thought he was helping the town at first, but realized it was anti town later. Says armix is setting up multiple lynches in advance, tells BlakAdder to paraphrase, says policy lynches are bad concerning forbiddan's stance on vamp. Says that armix didn't see that connection between forbiddan and himself, votes armix, saying he should have done it awhile ago. Agrees with armix's stance on vigging vamp, then presents armix case, of changing history in the wagon to claim debate, then the againstness on the mason claim D1, wagon hopping to forbiddan, changing history again calling rofl's vote on armix OMGUS, and finally the ignoring possible forbiddan korts connection because she's not scum, even though to him SC and forbiddan have reacted the same way. States armix ignored the actual case, just answering a few supporting points. Says vig directing is scummy, but rofl is for the most part confirmed, and also doesn't disagree rofl is right eventually, but would scum hunt him if he weren't untouchable for that. Counters username saying that he's using the same case as armix. States that no connection should be ignored unless one is 100% sure someone is town...and that can only happen if you are in an informed minority. States armix might have just come up with the bandwagon thing with SC in desperation, since the original point was SC defended him, as forbiddan did. Counters, saying that forbiddan wasn't even mentioned in passing for the same action, and armix is misrepresenting him. Calls a word twist showing that the that between only indications that the connection was armix's only point. States some points of his armix case are weak, but the pushing of an SC connection and ignoring a forbiddanlight one is a big point. Calls blatant misrepresentation in post 283, and then asks why armix is sure this is Korts' normal play. Claims that he refuted the connection claim, then says he actually discredited, and phrased wrong. He also starts to say that there is an armix/username connection from the way they are pushing the SC/Korts connection, but then notices Jordan's claim.
iamausername: Starts with a random vote on tinvision, answers rofl's question saying strife looks scummier. Declares roflcopter's "trap" to be terrible. Questions Korts urgings for forbiddan and greasy not to answer the question, saying that they can tell us themselves if they find someone else scummier. Asks Korts why rofl's question tarnishes the people's voice. Can kinda see where rofl is coming from, but still states that pro town is just as qualified to ask that question. Votes Korts for being opposed to the line of questioning so strongly. Asks why Greasy says there is no case on strife, if it's because he's done nothing scummy or no ones pointed it out. Asks Greasy if he thinks there IS a case against armix (Greasy never said this, but he also never said armix doesn't look scummy). Outing masons is a bad idea. Tells people to stop claiming, readdresses his "So, do you find armix scummy" question to Greasy Spot. SImple no to BlakAdder's intuition comment. Asks why a townie claim wouldn't count. States claiming townie is NOT what everyone does, just claims to be protown. It's anti town to reduce the pool of possible power roles. Points out the two scum factions, and the fact that scum doesn't know if I have a power role or not. Counters the power role comment saying this claim would shed too much doubt on it if I claimed power later. States the claim was too early anyway, I wasn't even close to lynch. More or less agrees that my claim was a null tell. Votes Greasy Spot for not answering. Exhorts people to make a case, votes Sun Tzu for his unreasoned vote. Claims authority as a scumhunter to Greasy's challenge. Takes the Korts/Greasy case on armix comment to be his answer, so asks why Greasy protested rofl's question when he already had decided who was scummier. Asks vamp why he unvoted without saying anything else. Says that voting didn't come into it (given GS's phrasing was neither was scummy enough to vote), the question only asked who was scummier, and then asks why other scumhunting going on would make a difference. Also counters armix asking if armix thinks his delay in voting was scummy, and asks what he has to gain as scum doing that. Asks who said the question lacked a neither option, and also asks which stall armix was referring to. Asks Greasy what happened between post 17 and 31 to make him ask "You ask us which we think is scummiest yet there is no case against Strife so how could I possibly decide right now?", then rephrases to say post 42. Says he's not the one changed his answer after 25 posts. Asks him why he said that he couldn't decide between armix and strife when he apparently thought armix was scummier. If he really couldn't decide, why did he specifically say no case against strife? Treasures the OMGUS always. Gets in the vig discussion. Joking comment about how scum totally wants to NK claimed townies. Votes Korts for rolefishing with the vig comment. Asks Korts what possible benefit the vig comment could have. Believes that Korts may have misinterpretted armix, but he still rolefished. And that rolefishing is more innocuous comments to find roles rather than a direct asking like Lowell did, and he doesn't see Lowell as scummy for thinking a D1 mason claim is good for the town, even if he disagrees. Questions why forbiddan sees an honest mistake worth an FoS. Korts and SC have outed themself as scumbuddies obviously, according to him, BlakAdder case good too. Says rofl is wrong about armix, even if he has been persuing him since page 1. Feels that Korts pushing the forbiddanlight connection is a freak out between SC and Korts for getting caught so soon, and that setting up D2 lynches make sense when you have obvious connections like this.
Greasy Spot: Asks armix about N0 vig logic. Refuses to answer question til he wants to, states there is no case against strife, says he can't decide now. Asks rofl what response IS appropriate to someone starting the day with a claim someone is town. Answers username saying strife hasn't done anything scummy he's seen, and rofl is pushing his lynch without cause. Proposes a theory that rofl, Iron, armix and lowell are all scum. Questions Enlighted about why he looks odd, says armix is using craplogic, whereas Greasy was proposing a theory. Argues that the masons are nothing but glorified townies and being out helps the town by lowering the pool of people that can be scum. Gets defiant with username, asking what authority he has to ask that question. Also claiming he and Korts have cases against armix. States he was going to answer usernames question the second time he asked, but decided not to when he was voted because he felt that username was forcing his question on him, and he dislikes that. Counters username saying at the time he said that, neither of them was as scummy as the people pushing their lynch, and that a lot has changed since then. Responds that at post 17 neither was very scummy, to show how ridiculous username's claim that the scumhunting that happened since then didn't matter. Counter questions with username's: "Why would the fact that other scumhunting is going on make any difference to its relevance?" Says that username is an idiot for not allowing people to change their minds, and votes him "for being too stupid to be a townie."
forbiddanlight: Wonders whatever happened to random voting, and votes roflcopter for his attack on armix who she thinks appeared to be asking an honest question, not rolefishing. States she already voted for who she thinks is scummiest, and that while armix's actions COULD be construed as rolefishing, she'd honestly probably ask that herself if she saw it initially, because it was seemingly random clearing. Answers the question directed at username, stating there are other possibilities than fishing for roles. Unvotes rofl rather reluctantly, states she doesn't think armix was rolefishing, that lowell was, but she agrees with his logic. FoS' SC, states that she doesn't want to VOTE him, but she'll jump on his wagon. Claims regular townie, says that she didn't want to vote on pure intuition, thus the wagon comment, feels wagon would justify her intuition, votes vamp under the impression there is scum on her wagon, and that vamp has waltzed in to jump on wagons all game, and that while she still suspects SC, she's letting it go since no one follows. Just wanted to claim so they knew they weren't lynching a cop or something. Doesn't see townie as a real claim, is grateful someone sees the Vamp logic, and encourages discussion on the new developments. Retorts claiming townie is what everyone is assumed to be til they claim aux or their posts reek of scumminess. Claims username's view is ridiculous because the scum already know who's townie or not, and that she could have a power role she's keeping hidden for now, though she says she doesn't, just that it's possible. Doesn't see "I am a vanilla townie" as a tell either way. Cedes username's points, forgetting SK is scum and that she understands the claim could be anti town, apologizes. Fixes username's vote count. States why she thinks Vamp is scum (4th on a bandwagon with no reasoning, "always screw myself over comment", waltzing in and out of the thread.) While SC was intuition, Vamp is evidence. Was going to ask the same question, but username beat her to it. Still reiterates question. States it was scummy to unvote without reasons. Questions Lowell's pro town vibes, asks who he ISN'T getting town vibes, or even scum vibes from. States she already brought up the faulty examination, explains intuition was why she FoS'd. States she did look over, and couldn't find what triggered her intution, but usually has this frustration in mafia. She also sees the vamp case as solid. Relooks again, sees what happened, and it was a misunderstanding with SC, but she keeps her FoS on him because of the roflcopter claim issue, claims she's not likely to vote SC given Vamp's in and out one liners. Counters Jordan saying Cougar was semi asking for a claim, pointing out where the SK came into the discussion, re explains her stance on claiming townie, or what it used to be. HoS' Korts, claims she feels better about her vote on Vamp because of his no reasoning. Also mentions how this is blatant rolefishing, and questions how saying armix is not vig is any better than her claiming townie. After all, there can be stupid scum. Then asks if Korts saw it before or after he posted. (it being if it was anti town, as clarified later). Drops to FoS on Korts, stating she can see what might have happened, but doesn't want to let this go. "Then play or be lynched" to Vamp's comment. Doesn't see Korts as the play, thinks Vamp is for not playing insightfully. Says that while Korts made an honest mistake, it deserves an FoS. Reserves right to change her mind. States she's not policy lynching, Vamp has honestly been scummy, it's just that the policy does have a minor factor into it. Answers username saying that even as an honest mistake it could have been a slip, worthy of an FoS. Then rereads to figure out who is right in the armix/Korts debate. Comes back stating she finally has a chance to reread...then...posts...this!
StrangerCoug: Votes roflcopter, stating that such certainty can only be scum or cop, the latter being idiotic, and that he shot off the question of why he thought so by saying it was scummy and later rolefishing. Doesn't buy rofl's defense saying armix was rolefishing. Accuses rofl of moronicness for claiming mason and outing Iron Man. Refuses to unvote rofl because he made a serious blunder, town or not. Stonewalls on unvoting rofl, states he should take pride in being an informational power role. Specifically stating he does not have a good reason to unvote rofl. Relents, unvotes rofl, FoS' him. Votes Lowell for rolefishing. Doesn't believe armix was rolefishing. Says that he was looking at page one when he first posted, then responded to the quote on page 2 (defending against Korts). Then says he let the mason thing go by unvoting rofl, but kept and FoS on him for the scummy behavior exhibited before. Also states it's pretty clear we do have an SK, and asks if Lowell has anything else to say for the OMGUS vote on him. Questions why Lowell feels good about his SC vote. HoS' forbiddan, counters the reiteration point and says forbiddan is letting scum lead with the wagon comment. Also questions Korts inclination to vote him. Asks aboutt how many votes are on forbiddan. Doesn't want to kill forbiddan before she can claim, thus not voting her yet. Counts four votes on forbiddan (there were five). Asks about the connection that Korts refuted. States 3 people unneccessarily claimed, asks how other people voting him justifies forbiddan's intution, states that forbiddan FoS'd him based on little, but votes Vamp based on very little, votes forbiddan. Buys the Vamp/SC explanation (for why forbiddan voted the way she did), says she was going to play the waiting game for what to think of SC, questions what forbiddan meant when she said SC wasn't examining the whole situation. Stays on forbiddan, claims he never wanted a claim from me, just wanted to give me a chance to defend myself, will look at Vamp's case and reread mine. Comes back and unvotes me, votes Vamp, stating that Vamp comes in, posts one liners, and pops out, posting too close together to really be considered lurking. Too little info analysis to be considered town. Corrects Jordan in saying Vamp is male. States he buys Korts' defense, even if it resulted in a rolefish, but it was minor compared to Lowell's. Agrees with rofl's case on BlakAdder, though questions a couple points, tries to draw similarities to forbiddan's case, unvotes vamp, telling him to post more, and votes BlakAdder. Enourages Vamp to actually defend, says armix contradicted himself with the mason claim thing, and then votes armix. States Lowell is still scummy. Wants to see Jordan's thoughts on a forbiddan Korts connection.
BlakAdder: One liners about how rofl is scum. No, literallly, "Everything rofl has said so far points to him being scum"...seriously. One liner about how there could be another doc. Retracts saying he might have been being reckless. Found rofl's behavior to be suspicious, saying assumptions are a part of mafia. Unvotes. Doesn't feel the need to justify his intuition, figures that people make assumptions because if we waited til we were SURE someone was scum deadline would roll around. Cedes intuition point, says he's used to trusting his gut. FoS' vamp, to give him a defense chance. Claims when he got back to the thread everyone said what he found suspicious, and that's just how he plays.
Lowell: Walks in, votes sun tzu, and then asks the masons to out themselves. Responds to iron man saying he doesn't know there are masons, so what's the harm in asking them to out themselves if they don't exist. Also admits it's a rolefish. Explains mason outing logic. Gives kudos to rofl for claiming, votes SC for "shedding crocodile tears". States that having the masons claim is ALWAYS good, ESPECIALLY with an SK since the scum factions can't coordinate. Retorts saying he feels good about his vote on SC. Claims a game where he and his mason buddy claimed D1 that town won, would have outed himself this game had he been a mason, and gets "town vibes" from forbiddan and korts. More pro town vibes, GS and username. States he only has pro town vibes from who he mentioned, and once he gets a few more he'll have the scum team picked out. Explains that because forbiddan has bent over backwards to defend herself she seems pro town, also counters Jordan's point about scum fakeclaiming masons. Doesn't see Jordan as pro town. Sees username as pro town again after agreeing with his post on rolefishing.
Sun Tzu: States rofl has played badly, but mason claim D1 is suicidal for scum. Isn't sure how he feels about early mason outing in multiple NK games, though they are good in 1 NK games. Dislikes rofl's question. Votes Vamp, says the forbiddanlight case looks good too. No reasoning. Answers the allegations for his non reasoning saying he thought it was obvious, and "I'm always screwing myself over" seemed like a confession to him. Discusses the value of vigging. Dislikes the case on armix, saying he saw Korts as protown initially but this case is bad.
-TinVision-: States that anyone wanting rofl's death after his claim should be hit in the head with a baseball bat. Questions BlakAdder's bandwagoning. Asks BA to elaborate on the making assumptions comment. Clarifies the math armix provided. Is satisfied with BlakAdder's answers, feels armix is pro town, wants a closer look at korts, ignores the vamp wagon.
Enlight_Bystand: Shows up page 5, dislikes rofl's question, states the rofl probably didn't do anything brilliant for us, but him and Iron man are probably safe for now. States Lowell has 4 posts mostly defending his call for the mason reveal. States armix has been active, got on Iron for seemingly pushing for a vig reveal, but has been working to get votes off the masons. armix also opposed the idea of a fake mason plan, questions vamp for following rofl's plan and going after activity. Enlight states that he will look at SC, Korts, and Greasy after he eats. Analyzes SC, Greasy Spot, Korts, and forbiddan. States Greasy and forbiddan look odd, Lowell looks scummy in the background of the thread, but no one stands out. Sees the vamp wagon as having moved fast, but there is a decent amount of evidence against him. Forbiddan appears to be addressing points against her, wants to know why rofl sees BlakAdder as scum, and thinks the GS/username thing was benign, but will be something to look back at later. Points out Vamp is at L-3, and doesn't want to put him at L-2.
silence: Finally posts page 7! figures neither armix or strife was scummy with rofl's question, Mason claims were ok, but they should think before asking. Asks about HoS and FoS.
JordanA24: Finally shows up page 9 with an analysis post. Finds SC, forbiddanlight, and vamparific his top suspects. SC for hiding in shadows, a quick wagon disintegration, and the general bending to others wills to look townie, forbiddan for following bandwagons, claiming needlessly and confusing posts. Vamp for being most obviously scummy with the one liners and "I keep screwing myself over". Probably would vote SC if he voted then, Vamp is tempting, possibly forbiddan. FoS' BlakAdder's bandwagoning. States he meant that the claimed mason would be dead before the other scum claimed mason. Feels Vamp wagon is scum driven, as well as forbiddan's, feels Cougar is more scummy than Korts, so the connection should be tested there. Does not see armix as scummy. Sees BlakAdder as a decent wagon, REALLY sees tin vision as scummy and would vote him if it weren't for SC.
Feelings on this to follow shortly.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
armix. Well...to be quite honest, I'm not buying Korts' claims relating to armix. He has been very protown throughout the game from what I can see, especially given his comments relating to the vig which started this whole problem. Heavy lean town.
strife: seems kinda non committal, but towards the later part of the day seems to get in gear. I will look forward to the results on your reread. I lean kinda town here.
Vamparific: Uh yeah...I think it's pretty clear I heavily lean scum here. One liners and "I'm always screwing myself over" does not a defense make. Lowell has a point about how scum defends. The only reason I'm going to
unvote Vamp; FoS Vamp
is because I agree a vig is best to gather information.
Korts: Ah, yes, the other man of the hour. Well, to me, it seems you started off pro town, but you are panicking. I agree with armix that there is a connection between you two, especially given the fact Coug has done the bandwagon thing except on you. I also think it's funny you are trying to push a connection between you and me. The way I see it, when you flip scum, that will be WIFOM'd and possibly confuse the issue enough to save Coug. I would vote you, but I agree also with Jordan that SC has acted scummier. Your early game is your saving grace right now.
username: I don't like how he questions. He seems to set up questions so that no matter what you say is wrong and it will lead to you being scummy. However, I also can't disagree with results, and personally I'd be interested in seeing how Greasy Spot turns up eventually. He did something odd mentioning strife early game but not armix in which was scummier. I don't feel strongly that he's scum cause of that though...either way, this is about username. To be fair, Korts is right you keep reiterating armix's case, but to be fair, others have either. Given your overall play, and how you are actively scum hunting, I lean town.
Greasy Spot: I don't like your early game at all. Username was right in questioning you. But, the way you reacted seems more like a child who didn't get his way than scum. Having a bad attitude and all that as mentioned before. I don't lean much either way with you though, but that vote for username being "too stupid to be townie" raises eyebrows, and you haven't said anything since. Slight scum.
Forbiddanlight: That's for YOU guys to have feelings on. I read my role PM ya know .
SC: What a mess. Blatant bandwagoning throughout, was VERY reluctant to get off roflcopter, even AFTER the claim. But then...avoids the Kortswagon. I realize this is mostly what armix said already, but you can't ignore something like this. I really hope he doesn't play normally like this, because it feels panicked, and some of his later posts feel like they are following Korts' lead.
Vote:StrangerCoug
BlakAdder: Whereas Tin Vision has cleared him, I don't . I won't say he's scum yet, but one liners as I said are a bad game. I want to see improvement in the future. Just because you trust your intuition doesn't mean you don't have to justify it. Seriously, I have this problem all the time, which is why I try not to push cases on intuition (even when it's right). Otherwise, a lot of your postings are weak, and the defense half hearted. I lean scum, but not heavily since he seemed to make an effort when Tin called him out.
FoS BlakAdder
Lowell: Aww, that's nice, you see me as pro town. Guess what? I don't quite agree with how you handle these things. You are hunting for scum, not townies, as others have said. But, you did explain your pro town vibes on a couple people. Can you tell us why you feel pro town on the other 3? (username, GS, and Korts...especially Korts given the latest drama) Slight scum, could change with his explanations for the others.
Tin Vision: Note, I forgot the part where he votes silence for Lurking. BAD. The mod sorts out lurkers. I want to see your closer look on Korts soon, I also want to see why you found BlakAdder's explanations satisfactory. Also, explain why armix is pro town. Otherwise, I see you as slightly scum.
Enlight Bystand: Better late than never, I say. Seems slightly hesitant to outright say anyone is scum, but his observations seem rather well thought out and good. Be a little stronger with your stances, I think, and it might lead somewhere good. Leaning town.
silence: I haven't seen enough of you to make a judgement. Get back here or ask for a replacement.
Jordan: Well, he's not afraid to speak his mind, even when he shows up that late. I like that, and it's also drawing attention to him which is what scum don't want. I like that kind of start. I like a lot of his analysis as well, and definitely seems to be working for the town. I'd like to see more small posts that relate to the current things, rather than mega analysis posts, (because you are more likely to give yourself away as scum in small posts you don't put as much work into), but otherwise, I lean town.
Alright, that took me way too long, but it's done. What does everyone think?
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
forb wrote:username: I don't like how he questions. He seems to set up questions so that no matter what you say is wrong and it will lead to you being scummy.
this is an interesting point. please elucidate further.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
forb wrote:username: I don't like how he questions. He seems to set up questions so that no matter what you say is wrong and it will lead to you being scummy.
this is an interesting point. please elucidate further.
It reminds me of a cop friend of mine. He used to say he could make you agree to anything. Now, I'm not sure if this is username's intent, because I think he relented before dealing the killing blow in each line of questioning, but it puts me uneasy when you can force answers like that. It leads to bad cases.
can you quote some of what username said that gives you this feeling?
especially since several people have outright stated they find iamausername to be protown, i think this is an important line of inquiry.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
Given your overall play, and how you are actively scum hunting, I lean town.
I think he's protown too. That was a personal comment on his questioning style. I don't like it but it does seem to get results because he uses it responsibly. But, since you want examples.
So do you think there is a case against armlx?
Innocent start, very understandable, given what Greasy said.
when you obviously had decided who you thought was scummier?
Slight leading because he assumes that's what Greasy meant. To be honest, this is still within the realm of reason given what Greasy posted.
Why would the fact that other scumhunting is going on make any difference to its relevance?
This gets iffy. I see Greasy's point here, not username's, and it's a clear leading question that kinda forces Greasy to respond (if he answered the question) in a way that implicated him slightly. I'm probably reading into this point too much though.
Are you suggesting that my delay in voting is scummy? What do you think I stood to gain, as scum, by doing so?
Rhetorical question for armix when he didn't even say that. I think that's kinda a strawman? I dunno my fallacies well.
So what happened between post 17 and post 31 to change your answer to "You ask us which we think is scummiest yet there is no case against Strife so how could I possibly decide right now?"?
Kinda the same strain as the armix question. You begin to see how he's leading Greasy on? (however, because Greasy goes with it rather than protesting and explaining what I think his stance was (I could be wrong), he comes out scummier, which is why while I don't like username's methods, the results are valid)
OK, so let's get back to the original point; why say you can't decide between armlx and strife when you did, in fact, think armlx was scummier?
Alternatively, if you didn't think either was scummier than the other, why specifically say that there was no case against strife?
This is the big shot. Its forces the assumption the change was in that post frame whereas no one said that (but Greasy confirmed this view by not refuting it, which adds a lot of validity to username). It's presenting Greasy with a view he never directly said he had, but worked himself into with username's help. It's forcing a view not explicitly stated, and barely implied. And the way Greasy responded made Greasy look scummy, but it might have been like that no matter how he answered. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I hope I've illustrated my point there now.
"Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
-StrangerCoug
TTGL Mafia is over. Going to mod [b]Umineko No [color=red]Na[/color]ku Koro Ni[/b] Mafia. Pre-/ins, as always, are accepted.
Holy guacamole, forbiddanlight, that's a giant post #303. I had to highlight your post to keep track of my reading spot.
I remember admitting that I've been on every bandwagon except for the one on Korts but not why I didn't bandwagon him, so I believe it's high time I explain that.
I largely buy Korts's defense against armlx's accusations on him, for one thing. I also see him as defending me by bringing forbiddanlight into his case and saying she's played similarly to how I have. However, he may simply believe that she and I are about equally scummy (or townie, if that's the case). forbiddanlight and I suspect each other, even though I'm not voting for her at this time.
I'm not saying fl is scummy because she accepted my defense, I'm saying armlx is scummy because he draws a connection between SC and me based on interaction that can be found in the same form between fl and me, and ignores the latter interaction. Ah well. I'm just the lonely misunderstood guy here. Who wants to start an indie band with me?
korts, i'll be your bassist. as long as you can play guitar and sing, we just need drummer and someone on keyboard/trombone, depending on how awesome you want this band to be.
back to business.
igmeoy: iamausername
. back when i first started, i read several games that greasy spot played in before my first game began, and his playstyle is.. very unorthodox, to say the least. i've also seen him be the easy townie lynch for the scum a lot. so anyone setting him up for a fall is suspect, and forb demonstrated very well that you were using leading questions to get greasy to implicate himself. if gs flips town, you become one of my most likely scum candidates.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
rofl, what would make the band awesomer, trombone, or keyboard? I manage with a guitar, but you'll have to sing. I have a terrible accent. In every language I speak.
I'll respond to forbiddanlight's post and post my read on Korts tomorrow after work. It's been a holiday weekend, I've just gotten back from a long car ride and I've got a long list of bugs to have fixed by tomorrow. Ugh.
I will note that generally I'm not normally a fan of the long analysis posts that look at everyone in brief. It's a good scum tactic to post a summary of the game's action to look active as well as to paint people's actions in a scummy light in the hopes that others will start a wagon. However, forbiddanlight is asking her own questions and actively prompting specific people, so I don't count it against her in this case.
tin, i agree that often posts like that are made by scum to look active and helpful when they're really just summary, but forb's post added a lot of new material to chew on and was extremely pro-town imho.
also, i'd like to hear some other opinions on forb and my exchange re: iamausername.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
Finally plowed through FL's wall-o-text. I admit I didn't read the play-by-play too closely. The summary post was good though.
I thought this was interesting:
FL directed towards Korts wrote:The way I see it,
when
you flip scum, that will be WIFOM'd and possibly confuse the issue enough to save Coug
Emphasis by me. Why would you say "when" instead of "if" FL?
Reread on Korts:
I agree with his attack on Rofl for the "who is scummier, Armix or Strife" comment. This is probably where my initial pro-town vibe came from.
*Note: Does somebody who has meta on Korts know if he often fills up the thread with noise? 3 posts about getting a cookie, 1 talking about schoolgirls, and 1 post about his indie-rock-band-that-wasn't.*
I don't like how Korts keeps arguing over Armix saying 'Rofl was wagoned to claim.' The degree to which Lowell's "masons should claim" comment influenced Rofl relative to the growing wagon is entirely debatable. This semantics debate is just distracting noise, and makes the case against Armix seem contrived.
This post is, ironically, hypocritical:
Korts wrote:
Sun Tzu wrote:
vote Vamparific
The case against forbiddanlight looks good too.
Guys, no. Reasons, reasons, reasons. Don't be a hypocrite. You're wagoning Vamp for wagoning forbiddan for wanting to wagon StrangerCoug.
Make a case.
unvote, vote: Sun Tzu
Reasons Reasons Reasons... You should be justifying your unvote when it is unintuitive. The case against Forbiddenlight was stronger than this one-post case against Sun Tzu. Did FL do something to drop on your scumdar? Did this one post by Sun Tzu really make you think he was scum enough to drop said case and Vote?
This post:
Korts wrote:
armlx wrote:And with that, you've just given away that you're not the vig. Good job.
is BS. If you're going to make such a strong (anti-town) statement, you should probably make sure your accusation is right.
There's also a hint of scum-slip there. It seems like you know Armix is pro-town, and thus are pointing out that 'scum' (i.e. not-armix) learn about Armix's role.
I'm not sure on how I feel about this, so I'd like some help interpreting if this is null or not. If you thought a player revealed a role that he Wasn't (helping scum by process of elimination), would you say something like this if you were unsure of said players' alignment? Or would you say something more alignment-neutral?
I think I would take the opposite road and interpret it as scummy, if it was so blatant.
I think the post is likely a scum-tell, but am not confident on this one.
Moving on to stuff that I have stronger opinions on:
The Armix case:
Really sucks. He makes 5 points, the first 4 of which are null-tells, the last of which (setting up d2 lynch) I think is overblown. Could I see the case of Armix lining up lynched highlighted? Quotes or referencing which posts would be helpful.
His first few posts gave me a pro-town vibe, and as such, his subsequent posts initially didn't make me think he was likely scum. More recently, his posts seems filled with noise, arguments against null-tells, and overall lacking clear logic and reasoning.
Korts: In your defense could you please make it VERY clear where Armix lined up lynches, and highlight how he drew a connection between you and SC but ignored the supposedly identical connection between you and FL. Also explain why you consider this scummy, and what conclusions you are drawing from it. I just plain don't understand the argument here.
Sorry if my offtopic/joke comments annoy you, strife. I usually get carried away, and I like to make a pop-culture reference as much as the next man (well, the next man's Lowell, so I don't know how well that statement holds). Anyway, if you want me to stop, just say so and I will.
So, first the SC-fl-Korts thing.
StrangerCoug wrote:I actually buy Korts' defense that he misinterpreted armlx. What I think the latter is saying is that vigging Night 0 has its reasons. Yes, Korts may have ended up rolefishing as a result, but it's minor compared to Lowell asking the masons to claim Day 1.
as opposed to
forbiddanlight wrote:Um, wow, ok. Geez...I want to stick on vamp, but I want to vote Korts too...that is blatant rolefishing...but...I feel better about vamp. No reasoning at all. However,
HoS:Korts
. Even if it's not rolefishing it's pointing something out that can only help the scum. Even if you think it's obvious, you don't come out and say it, because there is always a chance of stupid scum. In fact, isn't this the main argument against me? Revealing I'm a townie lowers the pool of power roles...but saying "Well, you've made it clear you aren't the vig"...doesn't? I think that's nigh hypocritical.
Korts wrote:
Korts wrote:
forbiddanlight wrote:Ok, one thing, did you see it before you posted or after, Korts? Doing something because you "can't help yourself" isn't good play. (yeah, I know, I'm one to talk, but it's still true).
Did I see what before I posted?
Oh, that it hurts the town? Way after. I thought I was being helpful, actually.
forbiddanlight wrote:lol, sarnath'ed. Ok, well, in that case...I'll drop to an
FoS KortS
. I can't let that go, but it's not quite as bad as it initially seemed.
Not exactly the same argument, but both essentially boil down to fl's last quoted sentence. "I can't let that go, but it's not quite as bad as it initially seemed." Neither's scummy in my eyes for doing this. Here's armlx's read on this:
armlx wrote:...
I could also get behind an SC lynch. Pretty shameless wagoning. Rather lynch KortS first though, as theres a connection there now that would reveal info.
armlx wrote:
@armlx: you are trying to prepare multiple lynches. Not good. Real bad. And what is this connection that you speak of?
SC defending you.
See how there's no mention of fl? Not even the "I see the implied connection, but I think fl's town nonetheless" that comes up later. So that's pretty much my point here.
About the setting up multiple lynches, I withdraw my point, because armlx has already clarified that that was in regards to alignment.
So the case pretty much consists of a single debatable point, at the moment. I think I'll have to do this, even though I think armlx is scum.
unvote
I'll try to put something of relevance in later today, but now I'm off to the library for some philosophy.
-TinVision- wrote:I'm not normally a fan of the long analysis posts that look at everyone in brief. It's a good scum tactic to post a summary of the game's action to look active as well as to paint people's actions in a scummy light in the hopes that others will start a wagon.
However, forbiddanlight is asking her own questions and actively prompting specific people, so I don't count it against her in this case.
EBWOP: Finally breached the massive wall of text. Great job there, Forbiddan. This just made scumhunting loads easier.
In regards to the content itself, you did a good job of keeping neutral, not painting anyone in a good or negative light.
I'll have finished going over my own notes in a minute, and I'll have a more game-related post.
-TinVision- wrote:I'm not normally a fan of the long analysis posts that look at everyone in brief. It's a good scum tactic to post a summary of the game's action to look active as well as to paint people's actions in a scummy light in the hopes that others will start a wagon.
However, forbiddanlight is asking her own questions and actively prompting specific people, so I don't count it against her in this case.
Good job further implicating the connection between you and TinVision, which Jordan already noted had some things implicating. Protip: if you're scum, don't answer questions/points intended for your buddy.
."Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch."
.
