Umlaut's Mini Normal Review, May 2021
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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It's the kind of red herring that's never harmful"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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?In post 22, Isis wrote:Rolestopper lets the town kill the joat if the joat is flat good at mafia.and getting docced.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Not a bad fix, though I think informed neighborizer (there is a mafia encryptor) is probably a more straightforward way to accomplish the same thing.In post 24, Isis wrote:Make the neighborizer a combined neighborizer strongmanfinder? That's funIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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The classic "inversion of the words scum and town" logic error.In post 26, Something_Smart wrote:
?In post 22, Isis wrote:Rolestopper lets the town kill the joat if the joat is flat good at mafia.and getting docced.
Rolestopper lets the mafia guarantee a successful kill on a JOAT who is also solving without determining who the doctor is"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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Where is your sense of whimsy and love of magickIn post 27, Something_Smart wrote:
Not a bad fix, though I think informed neighborizer (there is a mafia encryptor) is probably a more straightforward way to accomplish the same thing.In post 24, Isis wrote:Make the neighborizer a combined neighborizer strongmanfinder? That's fun"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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See if that were the only error then I would have probably figured it out but rolestopper also stops kills so that still isn't correctIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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I think there's a lot of fun design to be done without deliberately deceiving the players, considering this is the queue to which people come to avoid curveballs.In post 29, Isis wrote:Where is your sense of whimsy and love of magickIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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Ohh
Yeah I've used personal Rolestopper like twice now and reprogrammed my brain
Roleblocker is fine then whatever that was definitely the less important change (the more important change was that I think I telegraphed watchers are pretty bullshit)"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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X amount of curveballs is necessary, my mindset is that I've recently read complaints from TM about PP's (essentially normal) setup being easily guessableIn post 31, Something_Smart wrote:
I think there's a lot of fun design to be done without deliberately deceiving the players, considering this is the queue to which people come to avoid curveballs.In post 29, Isis wrote:Where is your sense of whimsy and love of magick
If some amount of curveballs are desirable, ones that don't change optimal PR play at all but make the setup harder to guess are very desirable"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Umlaut Jack of All Trades
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So the point of the Strongman-Finder is that they're motivated to target scum, and that way if they actually do hit the Encryptor it's not pure dumb luck? I like that.
Okay, so where we're at now is
- 1x Mafia Encryptor
- 1x Mafia Multitasking Roleblocker
- 1x Mafia Goon
- 1x Town Combined Neighborizer Strongman-Finder (should this still be Roaming? I lost track of whether we were changing that)
- 1x Town Jack-of-All-Trades (1-Shot Cop, 1-Shot Gunsmith, 1-Shot Follower, 1-Shot Vigilante)
- 1x Town Loyal Doctor
- 7x Townie
“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,and the other kind,’ and those whodon’tsay. Well, then there’s me.” — J.R. “Bob” Dobbs-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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It doesn't really matter if it's roaming because once they think they can find scum they will roam anyway
However that might be false if I don't understand the interaction between roleblocks and roaming properly"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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I think that looks right
I doubt S_S has run out of opinions about the prudence of Don Quixote Strongman finders"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Umlaut Jack of All Trades
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If the Roaming Neighborizer is blocked one night, they don't get another chance to neighborize whoever they were targeting that nightIn post 35, Isis wrote:However that might be false if I don't understand the interaction between roleblocks and roaming properly“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,and the other kind,’ and those whodon’tsay. Well, then there’s me.” — J.R. “Bob” Dobbs-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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If they try to target X and they are roleblocked, they're still forbidden from targeting X again.In post 35, Isis wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's roaming because once they think they can find scum they will roam anyway
However that might be false if I don't understand the interaction between roleblocks and roaming properly
Roaming doesn't seem necessary to me, and the role name is already quite long.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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If they try to target X and they are roleblocked, they're still forbidden from targeting X again.In post 35, Isis wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's roaming because once they think they can find scum they will roam anyway
However that might be false if I don't understand the interaction between roleblocks and roaming properly
Roaming doesn't seem necessary to me, and the role name is already quite long.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Why is the site like this
Why is that even a thing that can happenIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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Why is the site like this
Why is that even a thing that can happen"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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Why is the site like this
Why is that even a thing that can happen"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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We are getting roaming for complexity cost it's good to trim some of the defensible-but-not-essential elements that are adding the last few bits of complexity"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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*gutting"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Umlaut Jack of All Trades
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Do we still think this is scumsided? I know you said you like scumsided, Isis, but I'd prefer to have it balanced and I'm fine throwing in another minor town PR for that purpose.“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,and the other kind,’ and those whodon’tsay. Well, then there’s me.” — J.R. “Bob” Dobbs-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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this isn't actually that conservative, it's 3 power roles that can get some kind of guilty or innocent and the setup spec should be pretty strong even with the red herring. It's not that much more red tinged than where most people would land. I think.
S_S can serve as an opinion he's a lot more generous to town than me I think"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Another worry is that a doc save is pretty huge swing. It effectively clears the doc and the target, and it has a good chance to gain town an extra execution (if the JOAT got their vig shot out).
I'm wondering if removing the vig shot and adding a 2-shot commuter would make things even worse for town. It probably would, though I think it would cut down on swing significantly. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to mitigate that swing.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Isis she/her, not theyBest in Classshe/her, not they
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the clearing the doc part isn't really swing when part of calling this "balanced" is predicated on the loyal doctor speccing town more often than it doesn't, so actually demonstrating loyal just kind of locks in expected advantage.
It is strong for a doctor to get an extra elimination but the alternative is doctors that don't actually do all that much because they die, then their clear dies, then the game's on evens and there's no extra elim.
It's some amount of swing but it's a relentless pursuit of ideals beyond what I would want to go for, not every setup can be A Normal Roguelike (maybe you will tell me that is high swing too, idk)
I think this is pretty fine, the main post game criticism I remember from games I reviewed recently is frustrating with protectives so I don't want to turn a vig pacifist really."Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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It would probably be better if there were another way to block a kill. Umlaut's 2-shot commuter isn't a terrible idea, or maybe just a 1-shot bulletproof. That way at least we can balance around the extra execution being likely instead of being uncertain.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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