California Trilogy - Going to San Francisco (Game Over!)

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count

: 8 to lynch.

Xtoxm: 3 (Machiavellian-Mafia, MichelSableheart, Niv)
Machiavellian-Mafia: 2 (NabakovNabakov, PookyTheMagicalBear)
Niv: 2 (BBMars, MrBuddyLee)
MichelSableheart: 1 (SensFan)
MrBuddyLee: 1 (Xtoxm)
PookyTheMagicalBear: 1 (vollkan)
SensFan: 1 (Rogueben)
vollkan: 1 (Gaspar)

[BBMars]

Bah.

I will clarify my position

I am NOT against players using lists.

I am NOT against players submitting Condorcets.

I am AGAINST players relying on a Condorcet count to provide the lynch.

I think we're better off lynching with the standard majority.

The reason I believe this is because I don't trust every player in this game to understand how condorcet works.

and I think it's easier for scum to manipulate a condo lynch than a normal majority lynch.

The way it is set up is that posting a list is optional. If no majority is gained through conventional methods, then it will move to Condorcet pairings.

I don't really agree with Sens' logic regarding no lynch. Yourself is the only 100% confirmed person in this game.

Xtoxm's "I didn't notice them" comment bothers me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

That's my point.

In the first game we played with Condorcet, what I felt was that the town thought the existence of the Condorcet fallback option would allow them to NOT need to get majority for lynches.

It in effect made the town lazier, and many of them didn't understand how Condo worked or thought about how scum could manipulate condo.

That's why I want you guys to pretend this Condo-fallback option isn't around. Because I want to put pressure on this town to man up and actually lynch somebody with a 50%+ majority instead of lazily falling back on Condorcet.

[Xtoxm]

Bah.

I will clarify my position

I am NOT against players using lists.

I am NOT against players submitting Condorcets.

I am AGAINST players relying on a Condorcet count to provide the lynch.

I think we're better off lynching with the standard majority.

The reason I believe this is because I don't trust every player in this game to understand how condorcet works.

and I think it's easier for scum to manipulate a condo lynch than a normal majority lynch.

The way it is set up is that posting a list is optional. If no majority is gained through conventional methods, then it will move to Condorcet pairings.

I don't really agree with Sens' logic regarding no lynch. Yourself is the only 100% confirmed person in this game.

Xtoxm's "I didn't notice them" comment bothers me.

Why?

[NabakovNabakov]

I don't really agree with Sens' logic regarding no lynch. Yourself is the only 100% confirmed person in this game.

Not to mention that you should have at least some trust in yourself to be helpful to the town. If not, what are you even doing playing? (Unless, of course, you're scum)

I agree with Pookie's sentiment regarding Condorcet and how it shouldn't be a crutch, but if we do manage to make it to deadline without a majority, we'll either have to scramble to find a Condorcet winner (leaving more room for scum manipulation) or have no winner at all.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

@Pooky: I like the fact that you have brought awareness to the dangers of the Condorcet lynch. Thus far though I haven't seen anyone become lazy and just come up with a Condorcet list without voting, so right now it's still like any other mafia game in terms of everyone voting to get a majority.

I didn't notice them.

I don't like lurkers, and I generally find they are scum so lynching them is good play, imo...

1. What's your concept of a lurker in this game?
2. Is lurking the top scumtell you look for while scumhunting?

[FaerieLord]

I shall be away until Thursday afternoon. It's not the 48 hours recom by the mod, but I still though I should let you know

Also, what is a condorcet?

[SensFan]

I don't really agree with Sens' logic regarding no lynch. Yourself is the only 100% confirmed person in this game.

Not to mention that you should have at least some trust in yourself to be helpful to the town. If not, what are you even doing playing? (Unless, of course, you're scum)

I'll repeat myself, I feel strongly that ANY lynch is better than No Lynch.


Also, I don't fully understand the Condorcet method...

[MichelSableheart]

No Lynch should be at the bottom of your list. Period.

I have to disagree. With a lynch on any player other then me, there is a chance we hit scum. However, I know that if we lynch me, that chance is actually 0. From my perspective, it's better to not lynch anyone then to lynch someone who is confirmed town. My lynch won't give me any more information then a no lynch will, which is why I prefer a no lynch over a lynch of me. I may change my stance on this if it is absolutely the only way to prevent a no lynch though, because my lynch would give the town in general the information that I was pro town. Also, in your list, you give No Lynch equal preference to all players except me and yourself. Bit hypocritical, no?

Rogueben, why are you so quick defending me?

This is very FoS

What is it that MBL did that is FoS worthy? Is there some history between the two of you that I'm missing?

I completely agree with Pooky that the condorcet should not be relied on to provide a lynch. I would like to add to this that I understand the condorcet, and will do the best I can to figure out who is responsible for the result if we end up making our decission with help of the condorcet anyway.

Also, what is a condorcet?

Condorcet is, in this case, a system to determine who will be lynched if the town does not manage to reach a majority by deadline. It uses the preference lists that accompanies players votes. It compares all pairs of players to determine which of the two is the most prefered lynch. If one player beats all other players there, he is the condorcet winner and is lynched.

All this can be found in the rules, and has been thoroughly discussed in the previous CT game. You did read those, didn't you?

I neither like Xtoxm lurkerhunt nor his 'funny scummy remarks' as good ways to start discussion. Furthermore, there are signs that he isn't really paying attention (Not noticing who are lurking by how much when going on a lurkerhunt, for example).

I want to have a condorcet that includes all players as soon as possible. Hopefully, it will make me aware of which players are in the game and force me to look at all of them. I will only place players in groups when there is absolutely no way to distinguish between them. It's still early in the game, so the following list is far from definite, but I'm willing to answer all questions that may arise.

Unvote

Vote: Xtoxm

, Machiavellian-Mafia, SensFan, Faerielord, Rogueben, MrBuddyLee, vollkan, Niv, Gaspar, PookyTheMagicalBear, BBMars, Thesp, NabakovNabakov, {curiouskarmadog, Gorrad, IH, Nibbler Twins, OhGodMyLife, Sarcastro}, No Lynch, MichelSableheart

[MichelSableheart]

Also, I don't fully understand the Condorcet method...

Then I'll attempt to explain. Each player has made a list of his preference for lynching all players in the game (if you don't include all players, you are assumed to have listed yourself as the very last, and all options you did not mention just before that. For example, if you make a list MichelSableheart, Xtoxm, Machiavellian-Mafia, you actual list is MichelSableheart, Xtoxm, Machiavellian-Mafia, {everyone else, including no lynch, with equal preference}, you.

At deadline, if there is no majority, each player pair is compared. Suppose, for example, that 5 players list SensFan above me, and 8 players list me above SensFan, and the other players have not expressed a preference between the two of us. In that case, I am the more preferred lynch of us two.

When a single option beats all other options, (for example, when I receive the most votes in the comparisons with all the players), that option is the condorcet winner and is chosen. If there is no such option (for example, because I beat SensFan, SensFan beats Xtoxm, and Xtoxm beats me), there is no condorcet winner, and there will be no lynch.

[Xtoxm]

Looks like i'm todays lynch...Oh well, atleast i'll prove Gorrad wrong

[SensFan]

Also, in your list, you give No Lynch equal preference to all players except me and yourself. Bit hypocritical, no?

Way to try and accuse me for not correcting the default of a system I said I didn't understand.

The following Xtoxm vote makes 5 of 8.

• *
  Unvote, Vote: Xtoxm
  
  *Michel
  *{everyone else}
  *SensFan
  *No Lynch

[Niv]

Looks like i'm todays lynch...Oh well, atleast i'll prove Gorrad wrong

I am truly interested in how you attempt to make yourself look better with posting like this? would it be at all possible to enlighten me

[NabakovNabakov]

Also, in your list, you give No Lynch equal preference to all players except me and yourself. Bit hypocritical, no?

Way to try and accuse me for not correcting the default of a system I said I didn't understand.

The following Xtoxm vote makes 5 of 8.

• *
  Unvote, Vote: Xtoxm
  
  *Michel
  *{everyone else}
  *SensFan
  *No Lynch

Actually, it only makes 4; Michel's vote was nothing new.

If Xtoxm is top of your list, why is the person you thought just voted for him second-to-top?

Unvote; Vote: Sensfan

, M-M, Xtoxm, FL, {others},{missing}, No Lynch, NabNab

[Rogueben]

Rogueben, why are you so quick defending me?

I didn't intend it to come off as defending you. Even if you are scum SensFan's vote was for a bad reason, and I wanted to point that out. Also the fact that he hadn't paid enough attention to the other posts to notice that a few people had voted in that way was also worth noticing.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

@MichelSableheart: Why did you have your vote on Xtoxm, unvote him, then revote him in 2 consecutive posts? This slip warrants an

FOS: MSH

Looks like i'm todays lynch...Oh well, atleast i'll prove Gorrad wrong

Now I like my Xtoxm vote even better with the fact that he chose to ignore my two questions.

[Gaspar]

Unvote
Vote: Xtoxm

, vollkan, MBL, Mr Grey, {People}, No Lynch, Gaspar

[BBMars]

I'm a little hesitant about voting for Xtoxm, only because he always looks like scum. I mean, it's still no excuse for his actions. but he is one of the few players who has managed to push the scumminess threshold for me back farther than other players.

Major FOS: SensFan for suggesting that lynching himself is better than lynching no one. Seriously? You would rather lynch a confirmed innocent rather than no one?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

PRS LLC will formally forecast Xtoxm as Town, Mach-Mafi as Anti-town, Gaspar as Anti-town, BBmars as Anti-town.

PRS LLC also will put on its formal hold+ list NabNab and Niv.

[SensFan]

If Xtoxm is top of your list, why is the person you thought just voted for him second-to-top?

I find Xtoxm scummiest. Second scummiest is Michel. The fact Michel has voted Xtoxm has no bearing on anything regarding either one of their scumminess levels. You should know that the two scummiest people could be fighting each other all day long, and it won't make a difference.

Major FOS: SensFan for suggesting that lynching himself is better than lynching no one. Seriously? You would rather lynch a confirmed innocent rather than no one?

Assuming I am not confirmed to the Town, my lynch is better than No Lynch, in my opinion. I don't see how that opinion is any opinion of scumminess, though...

• *Confirm
  Vote: Xtoxm
  
  *MichelSableheart
  *NabokovNabokov
  *BBMars
  *{everyone else}
  *SensFan
  *No Lynch

Tags corrected. Please use bold tags only for voting and unvoting. - Mod

[vollkan]

I don't like lurkers, and I generally find they are scum so lynching them is good play, imo...

I dislike lurkers as well, but that doesn't make them scum. You're making an empirical claim, and you're not providing empirical evidence.

Looks like i'm todays lynch...Oh well, atleast i'll prove Gorrad wrong

The point of your fatalism is what exactly?

[Thesp]

I'm really not jiving with Gaspar's hate on vollkan. Seriously? vollkan as scum is going to deliberately and publically establish rules by which he will avoid voting scummates? (That seems to be the inference being drawn). I think this is a difference in style/method that is being used as a vote, which I would not expect from Gaspar.

Interesting. There's people missing. This seem interesting. Knowing mith those people probably weren't chosen at random. At least it gives us something to talk about.

There's already plenty to talk about. I swear by all that is good and right in mafia that if you waste your posts on game speculation I will string you up.

Also, since we have gone out of the random vote stage quite quicky,

So where does your non-random vote go?

No Lynch should be at the bottom of your list. Period.

...

I think that an innocent lynch is better than a No Lynch, to be honest.

No and no. My anecdotal evidence disagrees with you.

That's why I want you guys to pretend this Condo-fallback option isn't around. Because I want to put pressure on this town to man up and actually lynch somebody with a 50%+ majority instead of lazily falling back on Condorcet.

I agree with this 1000%.

Vote: Gaspar

, Niv, RogueBen, PookyTheMagicalBear, Xtoxm, Machiavellian-Mafia, {(All players not listed)}, SensFan, No Lynch, Thesp

[Gaspar]

Interesting. There's people missing. This seem interesting. Knowing mith those people probably weren't chosen at random. At least it gives us something to talk about.

Instead of useful things hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Also, just got back from bruce springsteen, man it was awsome, i seriousally reccomend you all check out his latest CD (magic) if you get the chance.

I haven't been a huge fan of Springsteens stuff, is this new album any better than his old stuff?

Sens #94 is suspicious.

Hi, why are you being dumb?

I think he's right.

I'll ignore the questions at glork.

[Gaspar]

(Glork.)

What is it that MBL did that is FoS worthy? Is there some history between the two of you that I'm missing?

I'll let MBL field this one.

I'm really not jiving with Gaspar's hate on vollkan. Seriously? vollkan as scum is going to deliberately and publically establish rules by which he will avoid voting scummates? (That seems to be the inference being drawn). I think this is a difference in style/method that is being used as a vote, which I would not expect from Gaspar.

I'm really not jiving with your inability to recognize some early-game cheekiness.

However, I also think that you are giving vollkan far too much (or too little, depending on your point of view) credit here. Someone like PJ can successfully play with a set of "core guidelines" and can still manage to skew things in a manner which benefits him as scum. Now, I'm not going to call Vollkan the next coming of PJ (god save us all if he is ), but I'd be cautious about dismissing the possibility of vollkan being scum simply because he made an elaborate opening post and laid out a whole bunch of "ground rules."

Come to think of it, Thesp, I'm surprised that you're surprised at my response. You

know

that I value gut and reads, that I make suspicion lists, will go after lurkers at times, that I seek to find people who seem protown, that I can be very outlandish at the start of mafia games, and that I will not simply bow to another's requests to explain myeslf unless I darned well feel the need or desire to explain myself. I don't think any of my responses to Voll should have been the least bit unexpected to you.

I'd really like to know what provoked you to vote for me/Primate this time around, when you've

seen

my fickle playstyle in action before.


See, now you've gone and made me post all seriously. Jerk.


On another note:
Primate and I obviously disagree on the Condorcet thing. I agree with Pooky's explanation, that relying on Condorcets to lynch is bad, but I think that using condorcet voting is good, because it forces traceability. (Yes, this is exactly what I said in Fresno, when I was scum. I still think it's valuable.) I don't think that every vote needs to lay out all players, or that one needs to track every change they make in their suspicion lists/rankings, but I do think that it provides more useful tools for discussion moving forward.

[Gaspar]

See, now you've gone and made me post all seriously. Jerk.

Yes, I think we are all agreed that Thesp is severely impacting everyones enjoyment of the game by voting for Gaspar, and I will contact mith in order arrange a ban pronto.