Mini 575 - Roach's Mafia! - Abandoned.

[Roach]

Sorry, I've been away.

If it's any help, I'll try and get a co-mod to help mod the game.

-ROACH

[killa seven]

i cant get a grasp of this game

[UnofficialRulerOfEveryone]

Puppy made some great points in 149. I think avi is getting a little over-defensive because he has now been pressured. I can't say that much against VRK anymore, so

Unvote

.

[caf19]

Bump

By my calculations, nobody is on even 4 votes right now, so we're definitely heading for a no-lynch as things stand. UROE is "leading" on 3 votes (Vel, Marmalade and myself) and the nearest contender is... er... me, on 2 votes (Fox and Lalm). We have about 2 RL days until deadline so we should really sort this out. As i said before, UROE's recent posts have been a bit better, but he still seems to be the best choice for a lynch given the current votes (avinashv, the only other person to come under sustained suspicion recently, is actually at 0 votes). So either we propose the lynch of someone else right now, or we just pile on UROE. Neither of which are ideal choices - everyone needs to be more active tomorrow!

I can't say that much against VRK anymore, so Unvote.

Er, do you realise you were actually unvoting Zeddicus there and not VRK?

MOD: Please clarify how many votes we need to lynch at deadline. Thanks.

[Snix]

I'm still suspicious of Zeddicus.

What really is the case on UROE?

[caf19]

Posts 86 and 93 outline my argument against him at the peak of my suspicions. Basically, he voted and unvoted zeddicus three times. When asked to explain, this he gave a contradictory explanation (saying the first vote was random and the second vote was for more real reasons; when in fact the real reasons he gave seemed to apply more to his first vote).

To reciprocate your question: what is the case against Zeddicus? As far as i can tell, the wagon started against him was initially random. He made a pretty blasé response to the wagon and then just lurked after that. Doesn't seem like a huge set of scumtells to me. i agree that his lurking is unacceptable, but that should be dealt with by his being replaced, not just lynching him because it's easy. A few people are lurking in this game - they should be chased up tomorrow.

[Snix]

Zeddicus didn't respond to the wagon, really. He crumbed power roll and then went on sitting on his thumbs. Not much to go on but It feels a bit better then your case on UROE.

It seems the only problem you have with him is that he's a bit absent minded. He didn't vote hop. He kept to the same person. In a slow game it might have been necessary to vote the same person once or twice just to get people to notice. He could have just been trying to get people to sit up and talk about it.

I do think that a switch over from random vote to a normal vote if it's the same person at least be pointed out as such. Rather than him attacking the person and having everyone wonder why he hasn't voted yet.

[UnofficialRulerOfEveryone]

(SNIP)

I can't say that much against VRK anymore, so Unvote.

Er, do you realise you were actually unvoting Zeddicus there and not VRK?

MOD: Please clarify how many votes we need to lynch at deadline. Thanks.

Mod request seconded.

Eh, I should have been voting VRK, but I see no reason to vote either of them at this point, so it works both ways.

[avinashv]

I'm not a huge fan of the negative connotations that the word "defensive" has on MS. I was defensive because I was being attacked. Every one has the right to defend themselves, it's part of the game.

I'm going to give a re-read to see where I stand on UROE as a lynch candidate.

[caf19]

By my calculations, nobody is on even 4 votes right now, so we're definitely heading for a no-lynch as things stand.

...This.

Pink Puppy and UROE are not voting, I suggest they place their votes before the deadline.

[Pink Puppy]

I feel like Roach is neglecting this game, and it is making the rest of us neglect it. I think the deadline is in an hour. I don't even know what the VC is. I will try to vote by then, but not sure if that will help.

[Pink Puppy]

Okay I tried to do a vote count...

I think this is it...

URoE - 2
zeddicus - 2
Caf - 1
PP - 1

I don't even know if killa seven replaces zeddicus or cookie, so I don't know what to even do with that. Not that he's voted.

I really want to vote avinashv, but that will not help us get a lynch. But I don't htink we can get a lynch today anyway, because URoE and zeddicus are only at 2 votes by my count.

vote avinashv

I will check in before deadline to see if any more voting has taken place and maybe I can move my vote to get a lynch. But I really would only be happy lynching avinashv right now.

[caf19]

MOD: given that you've been away for a while and haven't been around to answer questions, and also given that a couple of players have been/need to be replaced, is there any chance we could have a deadline extension?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ok VRK

Vote-hopping, bad reasoning for the votes. I don't like this post. I agree with caf 100% that if you're going to do a summary of people, and then vote for someone, then you should be voting for your top suspect. To do otherwise looks like you're being opportunistic or trying to gauge the strength of a weak case by looking at the responses you're going to get from the vote.

This' seems not very relevant. I didn't say avinashv wasn't my top suspect. When I wrote the post he was. Not "by a mile" since I feel like I read it/him incorrectly then. What was scummy for me was Caf concern that the "subtance" of the summary post maybe not seemed to show a "motivation" for an avinash vote. Why? Because maybe she would like a reason to vote for somebody with a better reason than for unofficial.

I don't understand you people, who might say that voting for avinashv or for Caf, could be opportunitic.

Why do you prefer a zed lynch vs. UROE?

Its' because of what I said about Caf preference against zed lynch.

I think Caf is probably scum. You guys saying she makes the most sense. Yes she does. She makeso much sense, so that I didn't even think about her very much, when I write the my summary post. Only I read the posts by her afterwards, I feel subtly that she's scummy.

I can't make a case about Caf. Maybe I shouldn't try because it let Caf say "I'm pretty undecided as to whether Lalm's post was scum trying to fabricate a case against me". I don't want to make a case, I only want to explain a little.

I'll give you a hint about "my case". From the same post 12, Caf also said "What does everyone else think of Lalm?" and I think this is the opportunitic side of Caf. Its like "did you guys feel he's scum too, I can vote for him safely if you guys think so."

Also said "i thought it was a bit scummy too but i didn't want to just OMGUS in my reply". Nice for me that I don't get the OMGUS until somebody-not-Caf says I'm scum. is weird isn't it to say, "if I didn't want to look like OMGUS then I had just vote for the scum I believe in."

Ok I can understand what you're saying here about your gut feelings for caf, but you're treading awfully close to a Too-Townie fallacy with your explanation. I'm in another game where I've got scummy feelings from another player, and I understand how hard it can be to sometimes try to articulate them.

Ok more about zeddikus and unofficial.

zeddiCus:
Not very much scum about him when I read his posts. Not much of anything in either way. So I get incredible if Caf want to defend him like she says shes makes no secret about it.

Cafscum would be defending a townie to make himself look better for later days. Caftown would do the same if the

argument

presented against that person was weak or illogical (this assumes best-play on Caftown's part). So from your point of view, Lalm, is caf's defense based on attacking other arguments against Zed, or true buddying?

From the bottom of page 6, I'm liking Marmalade and pinkpuppy's contributions. I'm not sure we're going to get anything else out of anyone, which is a shame. I'm starting to find my thoughts echoing puppy and caf that the game's just being neglected.

[Snix]

The problem is we are all split on who to lynch. No one's doing a good enough job convincing the town to rub off one or the other.

[xXFoxXx]

I really want to vote avinashv, but that will not help us get a lynch. But I don't htink we can get a lynch today anyway, because URoE and zeddicus are only at 2 votes by my count.

vote avinashv

I will check in before deadline to see if any more voting has taken place and maybe I can move my vote to get a lynch. But I really would only be happy lynching avinashv right now.

That's the exact opposite of what we need to be doing, this is a deadline situation.
That entire action seems scummy, WHY would you vote somebody new, if you didn't think we would get a lynch today? ESPECIALLY over top of somebody else. I'm going to come back to you next day.

Vote: UROE

[/b]

[Pink Puppy]

And why are you voting UROE over Caf when they both have 2 votes?

Atleast I am voting who I am most suspicious of and have given reasons for. You are not.

[Marmalade]

I have to agree with Pink Puppy. Fox just moved everything towards UROE for reasons that have not been given at all. Here's a question: if you don't give reasons, why are you voting for UROE?

(Incidentally, Pink Puppy's recent post emphasises my view that she isn't scummy, but misguided.)

I've changed my mind. Fox is my top suspect, and he's the only one I would want lynched today. I don't think I am happy about the case on either anymore, not even UROE.

unvote, vote: xXFoxXx

I want the deadline to be removed, and I want to hear what Fox had to say.

[UnofficialRulerOfEveryone]

MOD: We need a deadline extension.

I love how fox votes me when attacking Pinkie in the very same post (also no explanation on vote). I have a feeling the explanation is along the lines of "We need to lynch a scummy player.", but you (fox), as the scum I think you are, are trying to simply attack someone that you think you can lynch, as the zed BW has died. I am fine with being targeted, but this is bull.

Vote: xXFoxXx

PS: I <3 Newbie scum.

[caf19]

Hmm. I believe that Fox's vote was the fourth on UROE; meaning that it was the vote needed to lynch at deadline. With that in mind, it could be defensible, as lynching someone is doubtlessly preferable to no-lynch for the town. This fits with what he was saying in his post (i.e. that since we're at deadline we should be ensuring we lynch someone instead of voting for different un-wagoned people). It's possible that Fox's vote was just to ensure we didn't miss out on a lynch regardless of his suspicions.

That said, Fox has been contributing pretty much jack all game, leaving himself open to get on any wagon he wants. If UROE is town, then now would be the perfect time for a scum to jump on his wagon and look like he's being helpful by doing so. And Marmalade is correct to point out that Fox has never previously expressed suspicion of UROE. So the reasons for voting him are definitely not without substance.

It's time to clarify my stance. Like others, my suspicion of UROE has dwindled somewhat recently. My reasons for this are that he appears to be one of the game's most active players and hasn't done anything outwardly scummy since the triple-vote saga. However, the wagon on him shouldn't just die completely so I'm not going to unvote yet. Now that UROE's votecount has dropped below 4 again I'm going to take the chance to reread UROE, Fox, and avinashv's posts and evaluate them. I'll try to get my opinion in before the deadline - although hopefully it won't matter if I go past it, as I suspect that we'll get an extension or Roach will just forget lol.

For the record, it should also be noted that populartajo and killa seven are lurking like crap and being pretty useless. And zeddicus still needs replacing.

[Lalmtreasteek]

Ok I can understand what you're saying here about your gut feelings for caf, but you're treading awfully close to a Too-Townie fallacy with your explanation.

What? no. Making sense is not the same as "townie." And I'm not say the reason I think Caf is scum would be that he was making sense. It is in the little things that strike me when I look at them at all the same time.

Cafscum would be defending a townie to make himself look better for later days. Caftown would do the same if the

argument

presented against that person was weak or illogical (this assumes best-play on Caftown's part). So from your point of view, Lalm, is caf's defense based on attacking other arguments against Zed, or true buddying?

My "point of view" is that the scummy thing is Caf is possibly try to avoid the zeddicus lynch using a weak argument about unofficial or else trying to find another direction (possible example, perhaps when he asked about avinashv).

I'm still reading what happened, the Fox case could be better for now, I'm finding it to see.

[Lalmtreasteek]

If I'm right then Fox is one of the 2 that voted for Caf. And so voting for someone else with 2 (unofficial) actually is progress for lynching anybody.

I guess he didn't say why he voted for unofficial. He just wants to lynch. And only that it's deadline now.

Ok, I will say Fox is a suspect.

Also when looking at Fox's other posts its seems like usually it's not finding scum or talking scum etc.

I have to say. I got the bad feeling (the scum feeling) from Marmalade number 167, like he to use Pink Puppy's post in order for his' vote. But to the other direction he says clearly about his opinion right now, and also wants remove deadline which is seems like townie.

[UnofficialRulerOfEveryone]

Uh, PP's VC in 161 is terribly wrong, to clarify, zed had two votes, not one, and caf had one, not two, I currently have 3 and am too lazy to find the other changes since the VC in 161

[Lalmtreasteek]

Lalm, I don't quite understand what you are saying about me..

I think your bread crumb idea about zeddicus is probably wrong. And if its true and also zeddicus is actually that power role then congratulation you told the scum.

[Snix]

Ahh. Well I haven't been given a chance to pressure more or interrogate to confirm/deny my thoughts because he continues to do nothing. That's why I think, because of deadline, Zedidicus is a better candidate than UROE and also because I don't think UROE is scum.

The Fox thing does bother me. Why, if he thinks PP's post is scummy would he not vote for her? We could probably get a deadline extension if our mod shows up again and then pressure PP for answers. He instead decides to go for UROE. Why?

Vote xXFoxXx