Mini 554 - Mafia in Vollville - Over!!

[opie]

First, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to get some serious discussion. I felt like "arbitrary" was starting to distract the town.

I said that you were driving Erg0's wagon because you are voting for and then asked everyone for their thoughts. To me it had an air of: "Those of you not voting for Erg0, explain yourself" which just doesn't sit right with me. Especially when I don't think Erg0 has done anything to deserve an serious wagon. If its not a serious wagon then its a random wagon, and I don't think its necessary for me to explain why I'm not on a random wagon. I think it's incumbent upon those on a random bandwagon to explain why they are not the other way around. Thus, my vote for you.

Additionally you swithed you vote to Erg0 without any explanation. At first I thought it was random, but I'm starting to get the sense that it wasn't. And lastly, in Post 43, you questioned Erg0's threats of DayVig. The statements you are using to implicate Erg0 are to me statement made tongue in cheek. I didn't give the much credit. It makes me wonder why you do, and why you said nothing of Adel or Oman's Day Vigs.

I guess I just don't understand why Erg0 is being targetted here, which makes me suspicious of those voting for him. I will say that looking back Adel's vote for him has was her first only vote thus far, so perhaps I was a bit hasty with my FOS at her, but something about this just doesn't sit right.

=======================================

Votecount #3

Erg0 - 3 (Adel, Guardian, Oman)

Matt_S - 2 (ChaosOmega, Xylthixlm)
Oman - 2 (Erg0, Jitsu)
pickemgenius - 2 (TrustGossip, Incognito)
Xylthixlm - 1 (Matt_S)
TrustGossip - 1 (pickemgenius)
Guardian - 1 (opie)

Not voting - 0 (nobody)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline for D1: Saturday March 1, 10:55AM GMT+10
=======================================

[TrustGossip]

In defense of jitsu, I also read "arbitrary" in the "random" sense of the definition instead of qualities attributed to say, an "arbitrator."

Also on jitsu, your two posts after Oman's "dayvig" are interesting. The first is borderline reactionary, with far too much extrapolation of Oman's meager sentences. The second is much better worded, with analysis that extends beyond one player. I think I attribute this to you being...

human.

Carry on.

[Jitsu]

I like Opie's post above.

What about it? Do you agree?

A fair question. I should explain further. I do agree with the points he brought up. I agree with Opie when he said that he most associated "arbitrary" with Xyl's meaning 3b. That is how I most often use the word as well. And I also echo Opie's uneasiness about you pushing the Erg0 wagon.

You seemed to be leading the discussion on Erg0's possible lynch without really stating much of your own case on him. I've seen that tactic used by scum before to distract townies if they are pushing a lynch and don't have a strong case to cite. Does that mean you are scum? Not necessarily, but I find it at least somewhat suspicious.

As for the Votes and FoSes, I obviously agree with the one on Oman.

As for you, I can see the reason for some suspicion against you (

FoS: Guardian

), but I'm not ready to put a vote toward that right now when I think Oman's actions are worse.

I am reserving judgment on Adel because I thought her gambit was easily seen as such, thus not much of a tell. Gambits and high-risk moves are a big part of Adel's play style, so it is harder to tell from that whether she is town or scum.

I'm not sure who is most deserving of a vote right now. Erg0 has since claimed he does this every game, but the "hang separately option" and "I just want you to hang" bit raised my eyebrows, and made me think he was the best wagon at the time.

The (presumably fake?) day vigs don't really say anything to me.

Opie's post actually heightened my suspicion there -- I'd really like a good explanation from both opie, and Jitsu who categorically "liked opie's post" to explain why everyone voting Erg0 is worthy of suspicion.

Opie's post heightened your suspicion of what?

The "hang separately / just want you to hang" thing is worth remembering to me (I never said Erg0 was completely innocent), but I don't think it's worthy of a vote by itself. Since you feel that the fake dayvig's don't say much, your reason for voting Erg0 boils down to the "hang" statements above?

You don't know who is most deserving of a vote right now? That's a funny thing to say from someone who is pushing Erg0's wagon and asking the players to explain their votes for him and justify votes elsewhere when your own vote for him seems to be lacking in terms of a reason.

And saying I "categorically" liked Opie's post is an overstatement of my opinion. I said "I liked it", not "I categorically agreed with every word".

So, let me ask this: Why don't you feel Oman was acting suspiciously?

[Incognito]

we've had two fantastic discussions over two words, and(pickemgenius/arbitrarily,and two "daykills")
good stuff...

You don't know me.

I forgive you.


i'll comment on stuff when stuff becomes relevant.

You don't think Oman's comments where he speculates about a Texas Justice Mafia set-up and his rather serious assertion that he has a daykill are of relevance?

[Erg0]

We haven't had a mod post since, so it's still possible that Oman's telling the truth.

[Matt_S]

I've had trouble seeing which votes were serious and which weren't. Until the last page I thought the Erg0 wagon was just joke votes, but Guardian seems serious about it. So in response to his request, I don't think the Erg0 wagon is good. You're voting him because he won't disclose if he can dayvig and for his joke posts. The only reason people want him to claim is because he made an obvious joke, and people are taking it too far. As for someone more deserving of votes, I think Guardian is really pushing it.

Unvote Xylthixlm, Vote Guardian

Erg0 talks about wanting someone to hang. You can either take him seriously or you can go with it being a joke. I don't see any reason to do the former at this moment. The fact that you find it suspicious really makes me curious, though. You seem to want Erg0 to die, so why shouldn't we find that suspicious?

While I find it a little odd for Erg0 to not confirm or deny a dayvigging ability, it's understandable to not want to claim an ability. It's always to his advantage to deny it, since claiming gets him nightkilled. However I don't see why he doesn't just deny it. Even if he can, it doesn't hurt the town to deny it. I don't consider that to fall under "lynch all liars".

I've interpreted Oman's posts as jokes, so I'm not going to vote or FoS yet. I am a little curious about the seemingly serious manner he fake daykilled in. For now, I'm just interpreting that as mixing serious comments and joke comments. From now on, all jokes must have smileys after them.

[Incognito]

We haven't had a mod post since, so it's still possible that Oman's telling the truth.

That's true but vollkan has been active on the site since Oman's post, and I'm pretty sure that he is monitoring this thread at least moderately closely.

[Erg0]

True enough, it seems unlikely at this point that he actually did make a kill.

[Guardian]

To clarify, I have accrued two votes and one fos for:

1. Taking this game seriously
   
2. Taking comments in this game seriously
   
3. Wanting others to take this game seriously
   
4. Asking others to play this game

Is this a significant mis-categorization? Is there something I've missed?

[Adel]

You are always scum in games I'm in.
You are in this game.
I am in this game.
You are scum.

[Erg0]

I think that the allegation is that you're taking the game

too

seriously. I don't really see that as a votable offence in its own right, though - I'll admit that I was being a little more flippant than usual, and there's not much wrong with trying to bring things back into line and get the game going.

[Matt_S]

Guardian: You're voting someone for joking. I'm voting you because of that. You succeeded at starting a discussion, which seems to be your goal. Once there's a better vote, I'll unvote you, but for now it stays. You've been asking people to try and argue against the Erg0 bandwagon when I don't see a legitimate reason for there to even be a bandwagon.

[Oman]

Okay, I used the dayvig as a catalyst for discussion. I used Jitsu because we were in a game together (in fact, I protected him one night and stopped a NK that allowed us to win the game). Jitsu did very little.

Usually (I'm sure you're all aware) I use bandwagons to get discussion going. I tried this stunt in Urban Dead Mafia, and it didn't do much. So I've been looking for a place to do it since.

In fact, based entirely off his reaction, I'm going to give Jitsu one

TOWNIE BROWNIE!

. Thats right, the first one of the game! His reaction was effortlessly protown to me, and even the fact that he took another long post to say that I was worth the vote. If he is scum, he put a lot of work into that, more than I'd expect this early in the game (of course, Vollkan might be rubbing off on him).

I'll still be watching Jitsu, but for now, he is at the bottom of my list.

P.s. It was a joke, Jitsu, if I had a real one, I would've killed Erg0. Hey, it worked in Texas Justice.

[Jitsu]

While I find it a little odd for Erg0 to not confirm or deny a dayvigging ability, it's understandable to not want to claim an ability. It's always to his advantage to deny it, since claiming gets him nightkilled. However I don't see why he doesn't just deny it. Even if he can, it doesn't hurt the town to deny it. I don't consider that to fall under "lynch all liars"

You may not consider that to fall under "lynch all liars", but some players are fanatics about following the "lynch all liars" rule pretty strictly.

Neither confirming nor denying the ability is really the right thing to do, as it gives the scum the least amount of information possible.

[Oman]

Btw, lynch all liars is a flawed idea. The idea that lieing is NEVER pro-town.

Well thats just stupid.

[Adel]

following lynch all liars usually results in my death.

[TrustGossip]

If he is scum, he put a lot of work into that, more than I'd expect this early in the game

This is of course, completely WIFOM.

[Jitsu]

Okay, I used the dayvig as a catalyst for discussion. I used Jitsu because we were in a game together (in fact, I protected him one night and stopped a NK that allowed us to win the game). Jitsu did very little.

I think you have your facts a little mixed up. In Mini 518 (Underground Mafia), the game you refer to, GunslingerKB protected me and blocked the NK on me N2 before resigning (see post 1313). You replaced in for him early in D3. You did choose really well on your two protects N3 and N4, but you did not block any NKs. Did this slip your mind?

As for my role in that game, people can read/skim it and decide for themselves, if they care.

P.s. It was a joke, Jitsu, if I had a real one, I would've killed Erg0. Hey, it worked in Texas Justice.

I already figured it was, because your reason for wanting to dayvig me didn't make any sense. What was the purpose for that joke? Another catalyst for discussion?

What exactly is your case on Erg0 again?


I wasn't aware that I was signing up for "DayVig Joke Mafia". I wish someone would have told me.

[TrustGossip]

To clarify, I have accrued two votes and one fos for:

1. Taking this game seriously
   
2. Taking comments in this game seriously
   
3. Wanting others to take this game seriously
   
4. Asking others to play this game

Is this a significant mis-categorization? Is there something I've missed?

Your points in order:

1. The first page? Most of us would think you took an extra-large suppository.

2. Overanalyzing possible day abilities while there is absolutely no mod input seems a bit preemptive.

3. This is perfectly reasonable, albeit, again, somewhat early.

However, I'm of the opinion that the controversy stems from being a bit overzealous. Whether this is pro-town initiative or anti-town gambit remains to be seen.

IGMEOY

[TrustGossip]

Okay, I used the dayvig as a catalyst for discussion. I used Jitsu because we were in a game together (in fact, I protected him one night and stopped a NK that allowed us to win the game). Jitsu did very little.

I think you have your facts a little mixed up. In Mini 518 (Underground Mafia), the game you refer to, GunslingerKB protected me and blocked the NK on me N2 before resigning (see post 1313). You replaced in for him early in D3. You did choose really well on your two protects N3 and N4, but you did not block any NKs. Did this slip your mind?

As for my role in that game, people can read/skim it and decide for themselves, if they care.

I wasn't aware that I was signing up for "DayVig Joke Mafia". I wish someone would have told me.

So if this isn't "DayVig Joke Mafia," I suppose that it's "One-Game Meta Argument Carryover Mafia"?

You're beginning to push the point too far.

[Oman]

Jitsu: Catalyst!

Also, I feel like I protected you, even if I didn't.

Unvote Guardian, Vote Erg0

Three reasons:

1. He wants us both to hang, I say him first.

2. Look how scummy he is

3. I'm now on the largest wagon

[Erg0]

It was implied - there's a risk of any game on this site turning into "DayVig Joke Mafia". It's losing some of its value as a reaction-gathering tool, I'd say.

If he is scum, he put a lot of work into that, more than I'd expect this early in the game

This is of course, completely WIFOM.

Well yes and no... I mean, it is open to WIFOM to an extent, but you have to take a leap at some point and try to deduce someone's alignment from their posting habits.

That said, I don't think Oman's "kill" was particularly credible or likely to send Jitsu into a mad panic, so I don't think I'd put quite as much weight on his reaction as Oman has.

[Jitsu]

So if this isn't "DayVig Joke Mafia," I suppose that it's "One-Game Meta Argument Carryover Mafia"?

I agree with you that the meta discussion is getting old and has little relevance to this game. Whether intentional or not, Oman's recent comments, some of which I pointed out were less than truthful, could possibly be seen as painting himself in a good light and me in a poor light. If Oman is going to continue to discuss our prior game, I feel it's only fair that I be allowed to defend myself.

[Jitsu]

Unvote Guardian, Vote Erg0

Three reasons:

1. He wants us both to hang, I say him first.

2. Look how scummy he is

3. I'm now on the largest wagon

Point 1 is weak. I don't really believe that he wants both of you to hang, but even if he does, I don't find that scummy. Even if Erg0 is scum and you are innocent (which I assume is what you are asserting here), him wanting both of you to hang would mean trading one townie for one scum. At this point, that's a far better deal for the town than for the scum.

Point 2 is circular craplogic. You can't say that someone is scummy to prove that they are scum. Tell us, why is he scummy?

Point 3 is totally irrelevant. Being on the largest wagon doesn't make you right.

[Incognito]

Okay, I used the dayvig as a catalyst for discussion. I used Jitsu because we were in a game together (in fact, I protected him one night and stopped a NK that allowed us to win the game). Jitsu did very little.

Usually (I'm sure you're all aware) I use bandwagons to get discussion going. I tried this stunt in Urban Dead Mafia, and it didn't do much. So I've been looking for a place to do it since.

Oman, could you provide links to these previous games you're citing, namely the location of the thread in Urban Dead Mafia where you tried this stunt before? Is citing these previous games actually of relevance to this game?