Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Kop]

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past. He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

[Aubrey]

I guess really what it boils down to with me, regarding Hap, is I question if scum would make a push as he did against Kid. It didn't really look planned or thought out. It wasn't a push that would really generate a wagon. It was kinda just odd thinking, that I think could stem from a townie overthinking things or saw something just weird and poked it with a stick. Eh.

[Aubrey]

I didn't read anything that was posted after OOO. Running late for work.

[outoforder]

@ OoO

Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.

Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.

(1) Why? Why would you ever do that? Why would you "feel the need to feel natural" for something you don't feel comfortable with? I couldn't confirm this (if you actually do that - or if you are telling the truth here) in any way since all the games lately (in past 2 yrs) you have played here were games where you replaced in later on in the game. What do "different expectations" matter when you are dealing with a person who doesn't give any fucks about these "different expectations"?

(2) But you were voting for him because his story was inconsistent in the first place, no? His story hasn't changed so how it suddenly became consistent?

[outoforder]

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Well are you voting for a person you actually think is mafia? If you are, forgive me but remind me of your case since i can't remember any. Voting for someone without thinking they actually are scum does not amke any sense now does it?

[outoforder]

Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?

[hapahauli]

@ OoO

Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.

Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.

(1) Why? Why would you ever do that? Why would you "feel the need to feel natural" for something you don't feel comfortable with? I couldn't confirm this (if you actually do that - or if you are telling the truth here) in any way since all the games lately (in past 2 yrs) you have played here were games where you replaced in later on in the game. What do "different expectations" matter when you are dealing with a person who doesn't give any fucks about these "different expectations"?

I guess it's funny how environment influences play. It's not like I'm trying to do something natural for the sake of blending in. I've just seen so much of it reading games for the past month that dropping an RVS vote felt like second nature.

As far as expectations go, the vote isn't for your expectations. It's to try to create something in the thread worth reacting to. So me running up an "early game wagon" on you has a higher chance of provoking someone to post/comment on it than me dropping a vote on any other person.

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

(2) But you were voting for him because his story was inconsistent in the first place, no? His story hasn't changed so how it suddenly became consistent?

It's precisely because he was repeating it that I unvoted him. He clearly demonstrated that he thought he was pressuring you on an issue separate from the "clusterfuck." And his thinking is all that matters.

[outoforder]

[quote="In post 129,
As far as expectations go, the vote isn't for your expectations. It's to try to create something in the thread worth reacting to. So me running up an "early game wagon" on you has a higher chance of provoking someone to post/comment on it than me dropping a vote on any other person.

I have a problem with this (i have still yet to look the second part of your post - but i am gonna put this up here first since i gotta go for half an hour). If this is what you thought, why didn't you say it in the first place, since imo this != "i voted you for the lulz" which was your response when i called you out on your vote? Like rn in my opinion you have said:
1) I voted for ooo because for the lulz
2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people
3) I voted for ooo because i participate on RVS (well this could technically be same as (1) too)

[outoforder]

I mean, which is it? I don't believe you thought all those three things at the same time, ESPECIALLY since your initial post doesnt really go along with nay of thsoe three answers. And whichever it is, what's the reason for not saying all of it in the first place?

[hapahauli]

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Response to post 118

Alrighty.

So the first meaningful post i made this game was this post:

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

I often write posts where my intention is to challenge people to read between the lines and think about why people say what they do rather than what do they say, because i find that important. In this post i was trying to heavily imply that i don't believe RVS is the best way to start the game, nor will i participate. If that is the conclusion one gets from my post, they should automatically assume that they literally gather nothing from voting for me, since (truthfully) i will not feel pressured even if i was mafia, i won't give away my alignment if i am mafia because of some random nonsense votes on me. I obviously understand this is not something like "if you vote for me after that you're scum", not at all, but it STILL gives me information about how people read posts and what do they focus on when reading. In other words, i know what to expect from them in future.

I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

Therefore when MooginSoosy votes for me my initial impression is "wow, she definitely did not think about what she just read at all". Obviously she was joking, that's a no-brainer for anyone with any brain, but her post has literally no way of achieving anything at all. Especially when she doesn't know me, and how i play. What if i am a super newbie townie who gets scared of votes on me? What if i get angry because of dumb votes on me? Like even if you "randomly" vote for someone the vote might provoke a "wrong" reaction and a lot of early game reads for you guys who play here - i think - still come from the reactions to the votes, correct?

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. Or for some reason they think it's funny to just fuck around and not pay attention to why people write what they do.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

[Rels] thinks very alike me when he is town so there is like no way anyone else would have picked up on that.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

Now next thing up is KidAm. I honestly believed that writing this:

Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?

..to Kop would actually make you people realize i will give you an explanation when i have heard Rels' answer, and then, if someone has something they wanna say about it they do follow up. I didn't think people would actually think like a lot of people apparently do in this game. If i ask someone "What do you think of X", what's the point of telling them (or everyone) what i expect to be a townie answer and/or what do i expect to be a scummy answer? That's just straight up dumb because imagine i am actually poking a mafia and say "Hey, tell me what do you think of X? If you are town you will say Y and if mafia, you'll say Z". What's the point of giving the answers you (will) find townie before the other dude has answered?!?!

This is fair. Yes, people should be allowed to delay giving an answer if it's for a good reason, though I've already said this.

The case on Hapahauli kind of makes sense. I'll keep it in mind. I'm not voting until I catch up, though.

[Aubrey]

Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?

If you're being a lil butt, I'll politely ignore it for now.

To answer your question. No. Not when I'm town. I tend to just blast out whatever I'm thinking and move on.

[doomfeathers]

Oh doomsfeather, i don't believe discussing arm-up strategy will achieve anything because it's all wifom in the first place. You can't break the setup here since it would require giving away information publically (about arming), and in this case giving away information helps noone other than scum.

Yes, it'd be WIFOM. But since it's the scum who have to guess instead of the town, they're the ones who have to deal with it.

"Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it.

Who's Rayn?

[hapahauli]

Rayn = OoO

Rayn (short for raynpelikoneet) is his screenname on TL.net, and I'm used to calling him that. I'll probably make that mistake a lot.

[doomfeathers]

Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.

basically this is 100% correct.

Either you guys don't think very deeply, or you don't think I do. (If I were to guess, I'd expect it was the latter, actually. )

Three questions:
1. If you were scum, and town agreed to do this, would you kill on one of the three nights people were rolling d3s or would you wait until everyone had used up their arming?
2. If you were town, and town agreed to do this, would you go along with it, or lie and arm whenever you very well want to?
3. Do you know anyone who, as town, would not just lie?

I figured everybody (or at least everybody clever enough to warrant a shot in the first place) would lie and arm when they want, and scum would get stuck dealing with mountains of WIFOM.

One other thing we could do would be to openly discuss who should probably arm on any given night. This would, in the eyes of scum, raise the chances of being shot when killing to about 50/50, and the fact that we're openly discussing doing it helps them none. Basically, they'd have to outguess us instead of us just outguessing them. They get stuck with the WIFOM. They get irritated and make poor decisions instead of us doing it. And in any case, either less valuable targets die, or scum are more likely to get shot.

On the other hand, is there some way it would help scum? I'd like feedback on this idea, please.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Frederick E Campbell

who seems to be lurking at the moment.

[outoforder]

Spoiler: Response to post 118

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

I am "used to" RVS, i just don't think it is necessary since what becomes out of it is more likely to go shit than to go right. Which is why i try to start the game my way instead.

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

I am not. The thing i was trying to say is that when you have - let's say normally - RVS that lasts like this:
|---------------------->| when someone breaks it at;
|-------X-------------->| X spot, after that you would start to give out real reads, right? Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

Because Fredrick E Campbell posted a pure RVS vote. I can't make anything out of it.
You had actual reasons to think i am mafia (regardless of if the reasons are right/wrong/good/bad). Your vote wasn't really RVS, right?
MooginSoosy, havingfitz and hapahauli posted something i could actually process on. I have given my thought process on these people, as i have on you.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

I was saying the (expected) ANSWER was something i think only Rels could have picked up, not the motivation of my post in the first place.

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.

[outoforder]

Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?

If you're being a lil butt, I'll politely ignore it for now.

To answer your question. No. Not when I'm town. I tend to just blast out whatever I'm thinking and move on.

okay thanks.

[outoforder]

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

Okay, if i was to believe this is true, why didn't you say "2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people" in the second place?

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Response to post 118

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

I am "used to" RVS, i just don't think it is necessary since what becomes out of it is more likely to go shit than to go right. Which is why i try to start the game my way instead.

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

I am not. The thing i was trying to say is that when you have - let's say normally - RVS that lasts like this:
|---------------------->| when someone breaks it at;
|-------X-------------->| X spot, after that you would start to give out real reads, right? Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

Agreed. RVS should not go longer than absolutely necessary. I do like the concept of RVS, though, just because it starts the game so quickly.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

Because Fredrick E Campbell posted a pure RVS vote. I can't make anything out of it.
You had actual reasons to think i am mafia (regardless of if the reasons are right/wrong/good/bad). Your vote wasn't really RVS, right?

Pretty much. I needed someone to vote, and you looked slightly suspicious, but I didn't really have any sort of case against you.

MooginSoosy, havingfitz and hapahauli posted something i could actually process on. I have given my thought process on these people, as i have on you.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

I was saying the (expected) ANSWER was something i think only Rels could have picked up, not the motivation of my post in the first place.

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.

My bad; I thought you were.

As far as I'm concerned, you're in the clear for now, unless and until you post something else I think noteworthy, or I find something I missed.

[outoforder]

I'd also like to have Creature to give some sort of a real opinion on something. Every other of you players, would you say this game is boring or that many players are boring? I am going to bet not a lot of games here go to a stage where you have actual reads and thought processes by page 2 here. Correct me if i am wrong here, but i don't really get the "boring" statements based purely on that.

[Rels]

I don't understand Reels odd interest in Doom's scum ability.

Then why are you not questionning me on that ?

[Aubrey]

If I say, "

I don't understand why person did X

" then that is your cue to explain why you did X. You don't need to be posed a question in order to be cued into explaining yourself.

[hapahauli]

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

Okay, if i was to believe this is true, why didn't you say "2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people" in the second place?

Because describing a feeling is difficult.

You're working under an assumption that I thought through the RVS vote when I posted it. There wasn't much thought. It just felt right. And I'm just going to sound incoherent when I'm trying to describe what my gut was telling me to do in a situation. It wasn't until after you started questioning me on it that I spent any time thinking about what my gut feelz were.