Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

[Grendel]

Hopefully I didn't miss anybody lol.

See you in a few!

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Grendel - I *am* trying to prove that the idea I'm manipulative is wrong, because I know it is. Therefore if you are town it behooves me to smash the case, and if you're scum trying to mislynch me it behooves me to smash the case. I'm also at the same time trying to tell the difference in your motive for the case I'm smashing, so I can get a read on you - so, sure, there is case smashing there. Looks like it worked too, as manipulation is currently off the table - not sure I get a solid read from the wait and redraw battle lines later response, but...eh, everything can't be a win I suppose.

38+ was a page number reference for my catchup.

[mattblackguy]

Town matt should see Gerry flipping cop and think to himself "Hmm RC is caught in a fakeclaim. Might be scum"

Scum matt on the otherhand knows that RC is town (assumming they're not both scum) so he immediately jumps to the conclusion "Hmm RC is caught in a fakeclaim. He must have been reaction testing"

RC said day 1 that he revealed his role to get a reaction out of Gerry (Isnt this a reaction test?). So I asked that question because I wanted to know why didn't he say he wasn't really a cop after he got the reaction out of him. I wasn't assuming RC was town when I asked that question, but I only had one vote and Vifam's hammer was the scummiest thing in the game. I still stand by my vote on Vifam and still think he should be lynched today.

I kinda have been neglecting like half of the game, and I'm going to go over most of my null reads soon, and see if I can get a better read.

@mod I'm actually voting Vifam not RC. I've never voted RC on day 2

[mattblackguy]

Scum matt on the otherhand knows that RC is town (assumming they're not both scum) so he immediately jumps to the conclusion "Hmm RC is caught in a fakeclaim. He must have been reaction testing"

I did it as a reaction test because being RC I do not expect to live the night anyway unless I get docced so I don't see a big problem with me being outed.
You can like it or not like it but I caught scum.

RC, why didn't you reveal it was just a reaction test, and you weren't actually the cop yesterday?

[Rautherdir]

And Grendel, last game I ended up basically being confirmed town day 2. I was also making a complex move to try and catch scum off guard which required me to keep active.

Idk, you don't have to be expressly active to be open with your reads, and thought processes.

reads like these for example:

-snip-

You were releasing reads on every slot on the roster in the last game throughout D1.

I'm pretty sure that this is the first time you've done it this game. As short as yesterday was... you didn't seem that into sorting the rest of the roster.

And I redirect you here:

Bc ur scummy

... I was hoping for more, but you did respond, so I'll UNVOTE: you now.

I'd like Akarin to post a bit more before I put my reads list up.

I was about to get started. And then Transcend and Vifam hammered. I wanted to put down a complete reads list, but I also didn't want to put Akarin down in my list without any content to base a read off of to help avoid what happened day 1 in our last game.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Reads!

Transcend is scum.

Vifam is null/scum.

LUV is null/slight scum.

Akarin is null.

Keyser is null.

Matt is null.

I(Rautherdir) am not reading myself.

JJD is null.

Grendel is null/slight town.

CoopSheep is null/town.

RC is town PR.


Night Kill Analysis
I don't know about everyone else, but I personally thought Alisae was scum when Night 1 started. The only conclusion I can draw is that scum were trying to find and kill other town PRs.

Why are you scum reading Transcend?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't really see the problem here. He decided his vote on you wasn't doing any good and wanted to be sure of his first impressions of both players. Seems reasonable considering the length and intensity of the back and forth between the two.

The problem is that the vote wasn't doing any good, but they just unvoted rather than voting anywhere. It wasn't doing

more

good being on no one, and I had done literally nothing at all to warrant any change. Committing to one stance or another would have been good, but fanning the flames with "this doesn't seem like town vs. town" but not committing to anything is pretty scummy.

Besides which, it really does look pretty town on town, and Vifam is both arguing that well it must have looked scum on town to a lot of people because Gerry got lynched, but at the same time, Vifam didn't suspect or want to lynch Gerry.

Isn't it fair for him to have been waiting on you to see if it could've done any good? It was never given the chance to really do anything since you were practically nonexistent Day 1.

[Transcend]

I tr Akarin

[RadiantCowbells]

Transcend if you play like that I'm just going to lynch you.

[Transcend]

Why

I already know you know im town

[mattblackguy]

Who is scumreading Sheep? Is it just Transcend, and Grendel? I don't understand the issue with sheep. Reread his iso, and everything he does just seems like he's trying to gamesolve.

@Sheep What's your read on Grendel? I can't tell if you're actually scumreading him or not. I still think his reaction to his wagon yesterday was towny, and nothing he said so far day 2 pinged me as scummy. Kinda feels like you guys are wasting time arguing with each other when I think both of you guys are town

At least Rauth has more meat to chew on now...

Yep. I wish more people were talking because I think gerryoat/RC is SvT or TvS. Right now I lean towards RC being town and gerryoat being scum, but I'll read over the game again just to be sure before voting.

UNVOTE: Akarin, she'll get prodded soon anyways...

Is this this why people are scumreading Rauth? If it's something else let me know, but I didn't find this post scummy at all. A lot of other people obviously thought the interaction between RC/gerry was SvT.

I didn't see a problem with the rest of Rauth's ISO. Nulltown for me.

VOTE: sheep

VOTE: Rauth

Honestly I'm not sure how to read Transcend. His playstyle is really hard to read since he usually never explains his reads.

@Transcend can you give some explanation on why you think these two are scum? You gave some explanation for your Keyser read, but I don't believe you did for these two.

Actually, Transcend, do you really have 6 townreads right now? I'm pretty sure you are reading everyone alive as town except for {Keyser,Sheep,Vifam,Rauth}. How confident are you in these townreads that you have? I didn't notice you were townreading so many people until now, and I can definitely see the possibility that you are scum faking your townreads. The fact that your non-townread pool is so small makes me feel like you should be a lot more confident, and pushing harder on these 4 because if you can confidently narrow the game down so much the game should already be won in your eyes.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Transcend

[RadiantCowbells]

This is PL until he replaces out or produces content.

[Keyser Söze]

Rautherdir re-read

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

'Ah, look at me, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'll narrate it to make sure you know I'm here'

. I don't agree with voting a non-active player. Why not vote an active player and engage? This is probably me disagreeing with Rautherdir's playstyle than anything.

You'll be waiting until after RVS to see me do anything other than vote the last person in the activity overview. Which, by the way, is what I'm doing right now.

Rautherdir wasn't going to change just because I wanted him to - I respect that.

I think gerryoat/RC is SvT or TvS. Right now I lean towards RC being town and gerryoat being scum, but I'll read over the game again just to be sure before voting.

I don't know how Rautherdir ruled out a TvT scenario. Why did their interaction have to have scum in it? I disagreed with Rauth's "RC being town and gerryoat being scum" early conclusion. I suspected on day 1: was Rauth crowbarring in a scum-read so that they could later vote gerry? [Note: but Rauth did not later vote gerry, and wasn't part of his quickhammer].

Rauth asks JarJar why he thought his "I have no idea what is happening" post was scummy. Vifam didn't like it either. Rauth replies:

"Let me just put it this way: This is my second game."

. Ok, Rauth is playing the newb-card. I don't like this.

I do think we shouldn't lynch Gerry quite yet though. While reading through the game some posts caught my eye.

Let's see if Rauth presents these ideas or lets gerry hang un-opposed.

414 Seriously? Transcend, remind me again why you are voting me.

I didn't like Transcend's naked votes on D1 either - so I identify with Rauth's frustration here.

414 Seriously?

Transcend, remind me again why you are voting me.

Please respond. I would actually like to know why you are voting me.

VOTE: Transcend

Rauth is happy to escalate his frustratrion to a vote/pressure. Nice.

And as to Gerry... I'm just going to ignore him for a while. I'll probably support a wagon on him later on though, when I don't have anyone else to bother.

I hated this hedging. Rauth had earlier said "we shouldn't lynch Gerry quite yet" based on posts he had read (not yet highlighted) - why support a wagon on him now? If you have scum-feelings for a player you talk to them directly, not "ignore" them and see how their wagon unfolds. Tbh, it's weird you would admit to this though.

Rauth talking to gerry:

Have I ever townread you? You and Transcend are my strongest scumreads so far. I happen to be pestering Transcend right now, and after that I'll be poking around for other scumreads. If neither of those plans pan out into a lynch I'll be getting on your wagon.

"strongest scumreads" - ok, Transcend's naked vote, I can see how that could annoy you (OMGUS-fueled).
I still can't see why you had gerry as one of your "strongest scumreads" who you weren't going to engage directly.
Why vote Transcend who was playing his own closed-game, and not gerry, who was one of the most active/open players from Day 1?
I don't understand the reasoning here. Neither did I understand the nature of this 'strongest scumread'.

ok the last line is better. but the way you explained it made no sense. why do you think i'm mafia?

I think I've already been over this... Oh. Hmm, I should clarify something.

"I think I've already been over this"

... NO YOU HAVEN'T. You were refusing to disclose the in's and out's of your scum-read. Why?

I think either you or RC is scum. I have said that before. I'd rather lynch you before RC because of RC's claim.

I was not satisfied with this reason.

I still could not understand how gerry was your strongest scum-read.

As for why I think RC leans town, it's RC's claim and Gerry's reaction to it.

This is the first time Rauth mentions not liking Gerry's "reaction" to RC's claim. So many people were sheeping that idea around - it felt like Rauth had adopted it too.


Day 1 conclusion:

- I felt your Transcend scum-read felt real/plausible (OMGUS/frustration)
- I DO NOT understand how you got your strongest scum-read of gerry. My suspicion is that you were sheeping a popular view. If you believed it with your own reasons, you would have pressed gerry harder.

Day 2

RC is town PR.

Is that a fact or your belief?

"I think gerryoat/RC is SvT or TvS"

"I think I said I was sure it was TvS/SvT."

"I failed to take into account that Gerry could be a power-role."

Again, why did you NOT like gerry's reaction to RC's roleclaim on D1?

[Keyser Söze]

This is PL until he replaces out or produces content.

I want to give him at least 1 more day.

[Keyser Söze]

Cooperative Sheep re-read

Why do you not want to lynch Gerry? He seems a perfectly fine lynch option.
I'd be happy to lynch Gerry.

...but votes Grendel [he later explains it as a pressure wagon. I respect that. I just wished I'd seen more Gerry-Cooperative Sheep interactions on Day 1].

You certainly implied it though, and then defended the idea of not lynching him off of the meaningless-to-alignment tell of liking him. It's not a smoking gun, but if he's scum you've done actions that I can easily describe as defensive and deflective for the slot while also doing some sort of vague either-or setup for no discernible reason. It reads to me as a soft setup to allow you to push a false argument (one of them is scum, options open) but when questioned on it you kind of did an awkward defense of both. I think it reads as softly scummy in general, and if Gerry is scum I could see it as defense. Clearly you'll disagree, because either you're scum who will lie or you're town who did it without malice - but it's what it looks like to me.

Cooperative Sheep painting a Vifom-Gerry scum-scum picture.

Sounds like Cooperative Sheep didn't know gerry is town

. Why would scum-Cooperative Sheep be trying to scare town-Vifam about defending town-gerry... (town-lean this suspicion).

That is impressive misdirection from Cooperative Sheep if he is scum!


[Hard to pick apart any of Cooperative Sheep's posts - they are all finely explained. Every move he makes he shares his motive, theories and conclusions. As I said before, his playstyle is so water-tight, it'll be hard to lynch him. I genuinely hope he finds scum, then we start wondering: "why the fuck is scum keeping alive such a pro-town player? Every sentence he writes I can follow. If he is town (which I would lean right now) I'd like to play with him again in a future game].

Vote: Transcend

I find Vifam's behavior yesterday to be incredibly aggressive scum.
I find Transcend to be skating sneaky scum.
I think one is more likely than the other.

I think all three of Sheep's observations are valid opinions to hold based on Vifam's/Transcend's D1 actions.

The Transcend case has value - he is contributing nothing, and had suspect vote movement yesterday considering flips, and also is a slot that works within the confines of a 'don't jar the status quo' potential kill.

Again, all valid points.

Grendel wagon yesterday sucked and it contained {Keyser, matt, Sheep, JarJar, Vifam}

I bet at least 2 scum were here.

By what logic do you conclude one scum on a known town PR flip and 2 scum on an unknown flip that you're not even overly confident is town?

I like this question alot.
Why does Transcend want to lynch off Grendel's RVS wagon (Grendel is confirmed nothing).
But we have gerry's wagon to analysis (town flip).

Also, could you expand on why you logic Transcend as town? I understood your reasoning on RC and Vifam, but you offered none on Transcend.

@Cooperative Sheep, fair observation. My read on RC and Vifam is different to my read on Transcend.
I do not town-read Transcend:

"I do not know what is in Transcend's head. I do not know his motivations. All I see so far are the results of his actions.
I am unlikely to vote for Transcend today."

He is the wrong side of null at the moment and an easy lynch I could get over the line today or tomorrow. However, in the chance he is letting his ego getting in the way of him effectively playing the game (as town), I wanted him to use Day 2 as his last chance saloon.

After this read, I want to call Cooperative Sheep an ally now. Hard town lean. I'm going to bury my suspicion of him to the back of my head (scum playing the 'perfect-safe-meticulous-game'). Tbh, I do not think I'll be voting him at all this game unless we're at at LYLO and it's him versus me.

[Keyser Söze]

My only interactions with them today will be to find scum in the remaining pool (Grendel, Akarin, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks, Lil Uzi Vert, Cooperative Sheep, mattblackguy).

I've taken out Cooperative Sheep's name from this list.

Does anyone disagree?

Rautherdir stays in, on account of his unresolved scum-read of gerry. I may be hating on his "newb" sensibilities, but I think everyone should be able to explain their suspicions in their own words.


I want a satisfactory read on all these players before the end of D2: (Grendel, Akarin, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks, Lil Uzi Vert, mattblackguy)

[RadiantCowbells]

I am staying neutral on Cooperative Sheep. I explicitly don't believe that he should be removed from the lynchpool permanently.

[Keyser Söze]

Yes, that was my personal position, sorry.

We agree he is off today's lynch pool though.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Sheep What's your read on Grendel? I can't tell if you're actually scumreading him or not. I still think his reaction to his wagon yesterday was towny, and nothing he said so far day 2 pinged me as scummy. Kinda feels like you guys are wasting time arguing with each other when I think both of you guys are town

Gun to my head I'd call Grendel a scum read, but it's not a 'this is crystal clear in my head' sort of read. I am finding him kind of evasive by nature, I haven't really liked his votes, a wagon on him was reversed to a town flip very quickly, and his manipulative commentary shifting to 'you're arguing that my case for you being scum is incorrect' feels like a pretty awkward shift.

If Transcend was mod cleared right now, I'd probably try to restart a wagon on him because I'm conflicted on Vifam's scum arc.
So, actually I think I talked myself into it, he's probably my second most desired flip - something feels off there. Transcend is a solidly stronger scum read though.

[Rautherdir]

Reads!

Transcend is scum.

-snip-

Why are you scum reading Transcend?

I have no content from him worthy of granting a town read.

Rautherdir re-read

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

'Ah, look at me, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'll narrate it to make sure you know I'm here'

. I don't agree with voting a non-active player. Why not vote an active player and engage? This is probably me disagreeing with Rautherdir's playstyle than anything.

No one else was. Also, RVS.

-snip-

I think gerryoat/RC is SvT or TvS. Right now I lean towards RC being town and gerryoat being scum, but I'll read over the game again just to be sure before voting.

I don't know how Rautherdir ruled out a TvT scenario. Why did their interaction have to have scum in it? I disagreed with Rauth's "RC being town and gerryoat being scum" early conclusion. I suspected on day 1: was Rauth crowbarring in a scum-read so that they could later vote gerry? [Note: but Rauth did not later vote gerry, and wasn't part of his quickhammer].

Rauth asks JarJar why he thought his "I have no idea what is happening" post was scummy. Vifam didn't like it either. Rauth replies:

"Let me just put it this way: This is my second game."

. Ok, Rauth is playing the newb-card. I don't like this.

If I ever play my newb card in a future game, it'll be in scumchat. After this game I think I'll be confident in my town-play.

-snip-

And as to Gerry... I'm just going to ignore him for a while. I'll probably support a wagon on him later on though, when I don't have anyone else to bother.

I hated this hedging. Rauth had earlier said "we shouldn't lynch Gerry quite yet" based on posts he had read (not yet highlighted) - why support a wagon on him now? If you have scum-feelings for a player you talk to them directly, not "ignore" them and see how their wagon unfolds. Tbh, it's weird you would admit to this though.

I'll respond later

Rauth talking to gerry:

Have I ever townread you? You and Transcend are my strongest scumreads so far. I happen to be pestering Transcend right now, and after that I'll be poking around for other scumreads. If neither of those plans pan out into a lynch I'll be getting on your wagon.

"strongest scumreads" - ok, Transcend's naked vote, I can see how that could annoy you (OMGUS-fueled).
I still can't see why you had gerry as one of your "strongest scumreads" who you weren't going to engage directly.
Why vote Transcend who was playing his own closed-game, and not gerry, who was one of the most active/open players from Day 1?
I don't understand the reasoning here. Neither did I understand the nature of this 'strongest scumread'.

Later, the answer I have addresses several questions.

ok the last line is better. but the way you explained it made no sense. why do you think i'm mafia?

I think I've already been over this... Oh. Hmm, I should clarify something.

"I think I've already been over this"

... NO YOU HAVEN'T. You were refusing to disclose the in's and out's of your scum-read. Why?

I was going to as soon as I had a reads list. Also, see below.

I think either you or RC is scum. I have said that before. I'd rather lynch you before RC because of RC's claim.

I was not satisfied with this reason.

I still could not understand how gerry was your strongest scum-read.

As for why I think RC leans town, it's RC's claim and Gerry's reaction to it.

This is the first time Rauth mentions not liking Gerry's "reaction" to RC's claim. So many people were sheeping that idea around - it felt like Rauth had adopted it too.


Day 1 conclusion:

- I felt your Transcend scum-read felt real/plausible (OMGUS/frustration)
- I DO NOT understand how you got your strongest scum-read of gerry. My suspicion is that you were sheeping a popular view. If you believed it with your own reasons, you would have pressed gerry harder.

Day 2

RC is town PR.

Is that a fact or your belief?

I believe it to be fact.

"I think gerryoat/RC is SvT or TvS"

"I think I said I was sure it was TvS/SvT."

"I failed to take into account that Gerry could be a power-role."

Again, why did you NOT like gerry's reaction to RC's roleclaim on D1?

Okay, here are some of Gerry's posts immediately after the roleclaim:

Uh ok lmao. Just because you claim cop doesn't mean I'm mafia.

I don't give a fuck what your role is. Doesn't make your read any better

Claiming PR with one vote on you is the dumbest thing I may have seen on this site.

When I first read these, I ruled out vanilla town because they would care a lot more about the roleclaim. This left Gerry being scum in my mind. In addition, mafia would also care about the early roleclaim; and I thought the fact that he commented on the roleclaim afterwards may have been because a scumbuddy told him to push RC on that in scumchat. Even so, I didn't commit to my vote because it felt like I was missing something, that it still didn't make sense.

I failed to take something in consideration:

the fact that gerry could be a PR that could (with the assumption that RC was claiming cop) counterclaim.

The response makes sense in that light. It wasn't until later that RC claimed 'not cop, but with cop in title'. Gerry in these posts was probably signalling to town that he didn't believe RC's claim.

I made a mistake and didn't catch it until after Gerry got hammered. I did not expect day 1 to end so quickly, and planned to do much more analysis and pushing that day.

[Keyser Söze]

I am now satisfied.

Thank you.

[Transcend]

Tldr

[Keyser Söze]

Transcend, is this the way you want to leave this game?

Selfishly clutching to your closed play-style?

You're making your lynch easy work.

Start explaining your reads.

[Keyser Söze]

PLAYER A is a misslynch because:

PLAYER B is a scum because:

PLAYER C is town because:

PLAYER D & PLAYER E is TvT because:

PLAYER F is fake because: