Mini 539: Game over

[Incognito]

I'm still at work so I'll provide some feedback later today about the recent events. Did the mod ever get a

prod on Natude?

Also I'd like to see more content from Disciple Slayer - he came out of nowhere to place a vote on Apy and hasn't contributed much aside from that.

[Apyadg]

I'm assuming this is the quote you're referring to. First of all your justification is based on bad logic. I've already laid out in post 77 why Ythill's stance here is contradictory and he agrees. The fact that you're using it as your defense just makes you look scummier.

I don't think it does; even if your argument in 77 is correct, and it looks pretty valid, it's still actually a justification for not lynching SSK.

Given the fact that no one is making SSK talk and he seems reluctant to do so willingly, what makes you think that "keeping an eye on SSK" will help you learn anything about his alignment at all?

Good point, but I just didn't see anything I could really ask him, hopefully your post a couple up will draw some interesting resposes from him.

You missed the point entirely. We wouldn't learn much of anything from you saying "Me too". However, if he's truly your #1 suspect why wouldn't you at least question him about the vote and have explain himself more. You're much more likely to learn his alignment by forcing him to post and defend himself than by waiting for him to just screw up.

Taken on board.

[ChronX]

I have a 20 minute bathroom break from the seminar we are in today, and haven't been able to read any of my games closely. However, I saw an @ ChronX, and will briefly respond to it by saying that: Just because MafiaSSK, after what I seem to recall was several futile attempts, finally came up with a credible(ish) explanation for his early game behavior, doesn't dismiss the fact that his behavior, on balance, was scummy. Having not had a chance to read much from the top of page 4 on closely at all, my gut feeling is that mafiaSSK is still possible scum, especially considering there now seems to be spirited defense on his behalf from a few places. I'm not going to unvote the player I find most scummy to this point to satisfy the wishes of someone else who could very well be sticking up for his scumbuddy.

Sorry for not following all the content, I posted that this would be a tough work week for me.

[charter]

Given the fact that no one is making SSK talk and he seems reluctant to do so willingly, what makes you think that "keeping an eye on SSK" will help you learn anything about his alignment at all?

Good point, but I just didn't see anything I could really ask him, hopefully your post a couple up will draw some interesting resposes from him.

You really can't think of a single question to ask someone in this game? No 'who do you suspect and why' type questions? Or nothing you see slightly amiss in his posts? You went on a long speech about ythills usage of definitive (of which he clearly defined anyway) but you can't find a single thing on SSK? Don't really see how this one works...

[charter]

Don't know what happened, but meant to put this at the beginning of my last post.

Now to my question, since you and charter apparently didnt get it.

What didn't I get? I was just asking ythill how he figured so soon that ho1den and myself were townies.

[Ythill]

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch these people to win"?

You expect everyone to infer your answers to direct questions by the fact that you didn’t answer them, but then doubt that the scum in this game could infer who I think is town from a suspicion list that names only scum. So you appear to believe two opposite things, demonstrating that you are either daft (which I doubt) or are choosing words to serve ulterior motives rather than the truth.

In itself, your statement about my list helping scum is way off. Power roles and effective scumhunters are the most likely targets, Me reading someone as town proves neither of these two things about them and doesn’t really help scum at all.

Why did you feel the need to post "definitive town" and "probably town" lists? In what way does this help the town at all in the first day or two?

Sorry I misunderstood your question. I wanted to let people know where I stand and give more fuel for dialogue, that’s the “official” reason I posted all of my reads. There are also several town stratagems that are initiated by listing whom one suspects to be town, but I’m not going to explain them to you. Either figure them out yourself or wait to see if any are played out here.

I'm still trying to figure out what to make of Justin Playfair's long arguements. I do not agree with many of them against you...

Taking sides isn’t going to do you any good regarding my suspicions of you.

Ythill, I read everything, but address only things I find relevant, interesting, and can add to or disagree with... Honestly this early on, we really do not have a lot to go on yet...

Digging yourself deeper here. I’ve read both of your other games. I’ve seen you post more earlier and with much less to go on. Why the lie about your playstyle? Note that since your other games are ongoing, it is not appropriate for us to argue the specifics of them, which is why I’m being vague. Anyone who is curious can go read for themselves.

At this juncture, I don’t see you clearing yourself with an argument. We should probably move on to other topics. As I’ve said, I see no reason to convince others of your scumminess at this point. We still have lots of information to gather before anything like a lynch, and that means there’s still time for you to start playing like town.

[Justin Playfair]

Ythill,

So…

Semantics again? We don’t have to use the word “accuse” if you don’t like it, but I think it fits. Accusations don’t have to be direct and 982920019 words long like the stab you made against me, and they don’t have to include a vote. I would term even your repeated mention of my “non-case/false premise” as an underhanded accusation. But I digress…

…the answer to my question as to whether you could provide any examples of me accusing anyone other than you of anything was no. Because the definition of accuse, from Merriam Webster on-line, for one of many examples, is pretty definitive:

transitive verb 1 : to charge with a fault or offense : blame 2 : to charge with an offense judicially or by a public process

So, no, you are wrong in your interpretation of what accuse means. And no, you couldn’t find any examples of me doing so. Finally, my referring to the false case you pushed on MafiaSSK, which diverted attention down frivolous paths, was not backhanded or underhanded. I stated it clearly in my case against you and repeated it again later. It is about as direct as it could possibly be.

So we have now reduced accusing players under suspicion to asking questions of players under suspicion. In the case of MafiaSSK I continued to ask my questions after votes were coming off of him, which makes your pattern here rather meaningless. I would also point out again, that it was my asking him these questions that actually finally got him to respond, which I would think would be something all of us would want. Your quotes of me in relation to this consist of me observing that he could get votes quickly if he did not answer (which as I recall did happen), asking him to give a reason for the post in which he responded in what was an odd fashion by commenting that he has as many votes as Xtoxm (not nearly as edifying to his behavior as your seizing on the fact he miscounted the votes, I know), and pointing out that you pointed attention away from his initial vote, his claim that he was only bandwagoning, and his statement that he lied and toward your concerns, that he called Xtoxm “they” and miscounted the votes.

So, no pattern there in any regard. I kept asking him my questions after votes were coming off him, so that takes away from your supposition that I only ask questions of players under current pressure. I asked these questions until I actually…hmmm…got answers, which yes, is a pattern of mine, and nothing that you posted comes close to being an accusation of any kind.

In the second case, that of Incognito I asked him questions that would allow me to be sure of what I think I made pretty clear throughout my post to him, that he was being made to seem a defender of MafiaSSK and an attacker of those who voted for him based on a sequence of events that actually began with him defending Xtoxm for answering your “they” question. My post sought clarification of the only two points which I found at all inconsistent with my interpretation. I was trying to give Incognito a chance to explain his thinking outside of the confrontational environment which had arisen between him and ChronX. Remarkably, this too seems to have worked.

So in short, thank you for inviting me to discuss whether I beat my wife everywhere I go, but I think I’ll let you show anything even close to real evidence that I am beating her here, first. You have not supported an initially silly statement. If you want to take another whack at it, be my guest.

[Disciple Slayer]

Fucking grammar nazis. Who gives a shit, really? Post here so I can take note of it.

I'm here if anyone wants to ask me any questions.

[Ythill]

@ Justin:

Ah, so it is semantics. So, to use your example, if I were to say, "Your wife has a lot of bruises on her and I heard the two of you yeling in the next room," that wouldn't be an accusation, right? Only he with a weak position argues what exactly is said rather than the meaning that is clearly intended.

I was never refering to your questions, which I don't find scummy in the least. Your

accusations

(or whatever you want to call them) are another matter.

If you want to take another whack at it, be my guest.

No need. Your behavior has demonstrated to me that the pattern was scumspoor. I've taken note of it and will be watching for more.

[Ho1den]

I don't especially like that several players are coaching xtoxm to play better.

my gut feeling is that mafiaSSK is still possible scum, especially considering there now seems to be spirited defense on his behalf from a few places.

I'm not going to unvote the player I find most scummy to this point to satisfy the wishes of someone else who could very well be sticking up for his scumbuddy.

These type of vague accusations don't help us at all, and I'm getting tired of them. If you want to accuse me of something just do it as opposed to dropping subtle hints from which I can't defend myself. I realized you were busy from your previous post and didn't expect you to be following closely but I had a comment and put it out there. There was no need for your OMGUS response to a legitimate question.
I didn't ask you to unvote. I asked why you would have an active vote in place from something SSK said on page 1 without having even commented on anything he said afterwards.

DS - as long as you're around, what's your take on Apy after his arguement with me? More convinced he is scum? Has it alleviated your suspicions?

JP and Ythill - can you guys just whip it out, see who's is longer, and move past the useless arguments?

[Ythill]

JP and Ythill - can you guys just whip it out, see who's is longer, and move past the useless arguments?

Talking about post lengths, right?

I don't see how our discussion is useless. He addressed me as scummy and voted me, I defended. I asked him a question about a scumtell, he asked for clarification, I gave it, he defended, I addressed his defense. Every bit of it has been game relevant non-repetative and, IMO, more revealing than the Apyadg thing.

Actually, DS, I do have a question for you. Assuming you've had time for a readthrough, how about a brief summary of your views on each of the players. I like the unique perspective of a person who returns after hiatus.

[Northjayhawk]

Suppose every one of us started throwing around fingers of innocence and arguements for town along with FoS and votes? Wouldnt that just be a huge blinking neon sign to the scum saying "lynch these people to win"?

You expect everyone to infer your answers to direct questions by the fact that you didn’t answer them, but then doubt that the scum in this game could infer who I think is town from a suspicion list that names only scum. So you appear to believe two opposite things, demonstrating that you are either daft (which I doubt) or are choosing words to serve ulterior motives rather than the truth.

To your first sentance, yes absolutely I do doubt the scum could infer your most innocent vs just uncertainty in the middle. When I think someone is likely town, I keep that information to myself the first day or two until we have enough evidence based on past votes and behavior to really know what we are doing. Even then, I would hesitate to call someone innocent for fear of telling the scum who they should kill, and would focus more on arguing for a lynch elsewhere.

I do NOT expect the scum to infer your most innocent out of the list of 8 or so people you dont name as suspicious, how could they presume otherwise? If you name 3 or 4 people as suspicious, the people you dont name are in some gray unknown middle which could easily receive your full attention later, but if everyone comes to an agreement as to who is most innocent, then obviously that would be a great kill target for the mafia. Why? Because assuming the scum doesnt identify a power role, their best target would likely be the ones who are least likely to be lynched. Telling them that information point-blank without making the scum guess at it seems extremely foolish to me.

I stand by my statement, what you are doing with your innocent list is very anti-town and either indicates scumminess or just a very bad play by you. (I had presumed the latter, but since you actually defend the practice of identifying innocent people in the first day, I have to reconsider) Whatever small benefit we may gain from knowing who everyone thinks is most innocent is dwarfed by the huge strategic sacrifice we would make to the scum. I cant believe you dont see this the same way I do.

Ythill, I read everything, but address only things I find relevant, interesting, and can add to or disagree with... Honestly this early on, we really do not have a lot to go on yet...

Digging yourself deeper here. I’ve read both of your other games. I’ve seen you post more earlier and with much less to go on. Why the lie about your playstyle? Note that since your other games are ongoing, it is not appropriate for us to argue the specifics of them, which is why I’m being vague. Anyone who is curious can go read for themselves.

At this juncture, I don’t see you clearing yourself with an argument. We should probably move on to other topics. As I’ve said, I see no reason to convince others of your scumminess at this point. We still have lots of information to gather before anything like a lynch, and that means there’s still time for you to start playing like town.

I am not claiming lack of time to post and participate, now you are trying to place something into my words that I did not type. Obviously in my other games I did find something interesting to add to the conversation. In this game, a lot of what I saw was already explored by others, and it would hardly be useful if I just posted a bunch of "me to's". (which I arguably already did on your comments vs Justin Playfair, but that huge back-and-forth argument practically demanded some kind of comment).

At this point, I have to

unvote, vote: Ythill

. This is not an OMGUS, because if you cant understand why feeding the scum our most innocent lists this early in the game is bad for the town, you are either a scum trying to convince the rest of the town to follow a very bad strategy, or you are a townie playing poorly enough to lead us off a cliff if others follow.

[Northjayhawk]

Now to my question, since you and charter apparently didnt get it.

What didn't I get? I was just asking ythill how he figured so soon that ho1den and myself were townies.

It was a comment on your post saying that my earlier post was pointless. (I assumed you referred to my question on why Ythill would post his most innocent list) If you were referring to something else, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[Ythill]

I am not claiming lack of time to post and participate, now you are trying to place something into my words that I did not type.

I didn't say anything about you claiming that. Does anyone else think I even

might

have meant that? Read what you quoted again. You made a claim about your tendancies as a player and, based on a read of your other games, that claim was false.

I'm assuming you misread my accusation.

Whatever small benefit we may gain from knowing who everyone thinks is most innocent is dwarfed by the huge strategic sacrifice we would make to the scum. I cant believe you dont see this the same way I do.

I think you are way off on the strategy point. I'm also not going to argue theory, because it distracts from the game. Read some games, note how many good scumhunters give innocent reads D1, and then find a real reason to vote me.

You're playing different here than you do in your other games, and demonstrate a lack of scum strategy knowledge. First game as a mobster, huh?

Either way, it is good that you are posting more, even if it is only reactive to accusations. I really wish you would actively look for scum at least occasionally.

[Ythill]

@ Ho1den: You've argued heavily with Apyadg and have concluded that his behavior looks scummy, yet your vote is in limbo. Why?

@ Incog & charter: What are your reads on one another?

@ SSK & DS: Still waiting for a player analysis from each of you...

[Ho1den]

You've argued heavily with Apyadg and have concluded that his behavior looks scummy, yet your vote is in limbo. Why?

You paint me as having more conviction than I do. I have found some inconsistancies in Apy's play but I feel that at this point my vote could help push him to a lynch which I don't think we're ready for at this point. We have one player who has yet to post anything (Natude -

Mod can we get a replacement please?)

and more than a couple - Xtoxm, SSK, DS and ChronX who have not really contributed all that much.

@Apy - Still waiting for that "scumhunting" you promised us . . .

[MafiaSSK]

Sorry if there's been homework. GOD! Anyways I can't really tell if anybody is scum or not yet. I mean they're not clearly acting out of the characteristics of a normal townie. They don't relaly jump the bandwagon.
Anyways due to inactiveness which could mean too scared too post I am going to have to

unvote

and

Vote:Natude

. Thsi could have been one of their first gamers as mnafia so they didn't knwo what top ost without revealing without their idenity. So overall this is the best analysis I've got.

[ChronX]

I STILL haven't read any of page 5 thoroughly, but since SSK's post is the page topper for page 6, it kind of caught my eye.

Question to the rest of the field: Is my vote on SSK still so out of the realm of realistic? You know, the part where now he has decided to vote for the guy who hasn't posted anything yet?

I will have more abundant time this weekend and plan to do a vote/unvote sequence analysis, as well as reading the tomes posted by a few players and giving any of my comments. I have to say I'm not very comfortable with the game proceeding much more until the absentee is accounted for or replaced. Despite SSK's ludicrous vote, it is fair to say that role, whatever it is, is getting quite the free skate.

[charter]

Incog gives me mixed feelings. Some of his posts don't seem to be pro town, in that he stuck up for SSK, something that seemed like a poor idea in the beginning, he should have no reason to come to his defense that early. However, others of his posts give me a good town feel, so right now I'm just watching him.

[Ythill]

You paint me as having more conviction than I do.

That was unintentional. Just trying to make some conversation with the players I haven't picked on yet. I feel you've answered my question sufficiently, which was expected.

Question to the rest of the field: Is my vote on SSK still so out of the realm of realistic?

I never thought the vote was unrealistic.

@SSK: You said earlier that you jumped on a bandwagon. Now you seem to infer that jumping on a bandwagon is a town characteristic, but I could be wrong here so... Do you think bandwagon jumping is something town should do? Why or why not? Do you feel it's fair to vote for someone who hasn't posted at all? You've read extensive arguments against Apyadg, Justin, Northjayhawk, and myself. Do you agree or disagree with each of these arguments?

[Incognito]

@ Incog & charter: What are your reads on one another?

I certainly wouldn't go as far as you have to consider charter "definitive" town but as of right now, I haven't been able to form a strong opinion on him. I don't particularly like how he can go from making statements like this:

…MafiaSSK said his vote was because he was suspicious of Xtoxm.

I think it comes down to, do you think mafia made a joking vote but did a poor job of ensuring it came across that way, or do you think mafia was trying to build a case against xtoxm based off nothing. Personally, I think it was a joke he just didn't make it obvious.

and like this:

In your case, charter, your post timing has given you a few opportunities to attack players already under scrutiny but you have refrained.

Honestly, I don't think ssk is scum based on what he's said so far. I think some people took a confusing statement, and twisted it to no end to make him look like scum. However, he hasn't really done anything to show me he's town, so he very well could be.

where he seems to be leaning in favor of believing SSK is pro-town to more recent statements like this:

Incog gives me mixed feelings. Some of his posts don't seem to be pro town, in that he stuck up for SSK, something that seemed like a poor idea in the beginning, he should have no reason to come to his defense that early. However, others of his posts give me a good town feel, so right now I'm just watching him.

Here charter mentions I was "sticking up" for SSK when that's not true at all - votes were coming in so rapidly against one person over page 1 events that I immediately became more suspicious of the people on the bandwagon that formed so early than of SSK himself. I've already explained this pretty thoroughly in a bunch of posts where I've responded to ChronX and Justin Playfair... why charter still feels the need to make an inaccurate statement like this, I have no clue.

I need to do a read-up on recent events so that I'm posting ideas related to things that are more current. I guess I should also pm the mod since he doesn't seem to be creating vote counts or responding to our prod requests for Natude.

@Disciple Slayer:

You've been asked a number of questions from different sources now that you have yet to respond to. I'd like for you to become more active in the thread now so that your posts aren't as retrospective as they have been, otherwise I'm tempted to call you out on lurking. It seems like you've been avoiding scrutiny because you haven't been around to garner it.

[Disciple Slayer]

Posting will commence on the 18th. I've got a busy weekend and a flight immediately after.

[Ythill]

Here charter mentions I was "sticking up" for SSK when that's not true at all - why charter still feels the need to make an inaccurate statement like this, I have no clue.

To be fair, you

did

speak in SSK's defense. I think you had good reasons to do so and I don't think your actions were particularly scummy in this case, but these justifications do not change what you did/said.

Thanks for pointing out charter's apparent inconsistancies. I'm not sure they amount to too much, but it is always good to hear about "questionable" play that I have obviously missed.

[Northjayhawk]

Whatever small benefit we may gain from knowing who everyone thinks is most innocent is dwarfed by the huge strategic sacrifice we would make to the scum. I cant believe you dont see this the same way I do.

I think you are way off on the strategy point. I'm also not going to argue theory, because it distracts from the game. Read some games, note how many good scumhunters give innocent reads D1, and then find a real reason to vote me.

You're playing different here than you do in your other games, and demonstrate a lack of scum strategy knowledge. First game as a mobster, huh?

Either way, it is good that you are posting more, even if it is only reactive to accusations. I really wish you would actively look for scum at least occasionally.

Now you've just descended into the pit of flat-out lying. I do not reveal my most-innocent suspicions here or elsewhere early in any game. I dont care who you have seen post most-innocent lists or how often, it is retardedly stupid strategy. I am very comfortable with my vote at this time.

[Northjayhawk]

I'll also note that you failed to explain why your action is not anti-town after I explained why it is. You surrender too much valuable information to the scum. Your answer essentially was: "Well, I read about how a few other people elsewhere posted innocent lists on day 1, so I guess it must be good strategy", which obviously is not an answer at all.